As if most people can ride a bike in the first place. They think they can cos they bought some Halfords Lycra lol. So much crap talked about push irons.
Absolutely over the moon that gcn have this tech channel. Love the content so far. Don't really care about all the race/pro rider stuff on the other channel but love to nerd out on the tech.
Yeah, this is a great channel, a lot of nerdery going on about the science not just selling parts or bikes (or pros or sponsors). Just started my exploration into biking and GCN Tech youtube channels are the first place I go.
Owning both 700c (w/ 28mm tire) and 650b (w/ 43mm tire) wheelsets for one of my bikes, I can say that the bike handles very differently when I switch. I attribute this mostly to the lower bottom bracket when using the smaller wheel. That lower center of gravity feels much more stable on the road, but also comes with a higher risk of pedal strike if I lean over too far in the corners. Both are fun, but putting fat 700x40mm tires on is the most fun.
Really? I would have thought that the overall diameter of both those wheel setups would have been very similar. I mean a 700c x 35mm tire has the same overall diameter of a 650b x 47mm tire. In fact I would have though that your 650b x 43mm setup might even have a slightly greater overall diameter. Is that not the case? I'm interested as I myself am looking to do the same as yourself for my Giant Contend Disc.
Well it looks like you are right, your 650b x 43mm would be a little lower. Here is a conversion table to just found: 700C x 23mm = 668mm = 650B x 42mm 700C x 28mm = 678mm = 650B x 47mm 700C x 32mm = 686mm = 650B x 50mm 700C x 35mm = 692mm = 27.5 x 2.1” 700C x 38mm = 698mm = 27.5 x 2.25” www.bikepacking.com/gear/700c-to-650b/
That was fun. I bought a Cannondale Topstone gravel bike that came stock with 700 wheels. Also bought a set of 650b wheels at the same time and immediately started using them as my regular wheels (with various 47mm WTB tires). For most of our gravel, that comes close to switching to a mtb, this is the best option for the gravel bike. Great to have options. Ride what works.
Have you measured the overall gross diameter of the two different wheels and compared? I have a 700C bike on which I would like to run 650B, but want to make sure the diameter isn’t an issue. Ideally the 650B is a slightly smaller diameter. On my particular bike diameter is a big deal. Thanks!
I use 16" wheels on my Brompton, 20" (406 on my tsr moulton & 451 on bobbin metric) 26" x 2.1 on bobbin wagtail, 650c on my vintage lo pro 653 and 700c on a few hub gear and fixie bikes. I use various bikes for tting on (the moulton tsr, kona paddy wagon 3, charge plug fixed and the wagtail, all with a custom aero position) and have noticed very little difference in my average speed and times
Rockinroomsrob Offroad, large wheels being faster makes physical sense. On road, it doesn't and fast road bikes could be designed on whatever fits the rider.
Tech Question: With 700c x 28mm tires on my road bike, I have approximately 3mm clearance on each side of the tire (inside the fork/chain stay/seat stay). The angle of the frame-inside the fork/chain stay/seat stay-increases as it nears the hub. A smaller wheel accommodates a wider tire because its shorter radius sets the tire at a wider point in the frame. The radius of the 700c-from hub to rim-is 311mm (1/2 of 622). The radius on a 650b is 292mm (1/2 of 584). Measuring 292mm up from the hub, I find there is approximately 41mm width inside the fork-where the edge of a 650b wheel would sit. Without knowing the height of a given tire, what's the largest tire my frame can accommodate using a 650b?
Now I can really see the sense of the Tech channel. I think this format of taking a closer look at things at the Tech channel is a great addition to the main channel. Good job!
We need a GCN science video on this! I'm interested in an acceleration tests of a 650c vs 700c wheel both with road tires. With 12% weight reduction, 7% aero benefit, and 24% lower rotational inertia I'm guessing it could have a big impact on standing start sprints and even some decent results in rolling start sprints.
Alex Stieda rode a 650 Softride with Coors Light in the early 90's and there was some other experimentation among the Pro's. I think Steve Bauer's 1993 Paris Roubaix bike may have used 26's as well, but there a smaller diameter would increase bump force. Most notable is Paula Newby Fraser on a Hamilton with 24"!! wheels front and rear. She smashed the Iron Man record and came in 3rd among the men. 200 gm rim, 140 gm tire and same spoke aerodynamics as a 700c wheel with an 80mm rim. Ridiculous acceleration and aerodynamic and it allowed a tighter, stiffer frame. Banned by the UCI after Atlanta 96.
Thats the one! Special build for her. Notice the "uphill" bottom bracket and the apparent length of the chainstays, and the size of the rings. Some is just a visual effect of the wheels. The stays were actually super short at 38cm with plenty of room to go even shorter. This allowed stout stays with no need for crimping. The only reason the stays didnt go any shorter is because the chainline couldnt take it. I wish this design would have survived. Unfortunately it was ahead of its time. It would put deep dish carbon wheels out of business and put a few thousand $$$ back in your pocket.
Very nice job, thank you for the thorough discussion! Two minor quibbles: First, regarding the use of bead diameter to designate size -- it's the crucial diameter that must be matched by the tire. The other diameters (e.g. to the very top edge of the rim) are inconsistent between wheels that would take the same tire. Second, right around 9:00, you suggest that one could make the steering less ponderous by increasing trail -- I think you meant by decreasing it (or by increasing rake perhaps)?
My experience: I own bikes with 700Cx25mm all the way up to 700Cx42mm tires, 650Bx42mm and 48mm, and 26" x 2.3" (American sizes, sorry there is no metric equivalent, although you could say ISO522x58mm). I'd say the fastest is 700x32mm (on a ~30mm wide rim). 650x42mm is the traditional Randonneur tire and is great for distance. 700x38 mm is my favorite as it's pretty plush and rolls quite fast. 26"x2.3" is great for multi surface riding -- I run them at 25PSI and they are at their best on hard pack and super rough roads. I only use Compass road tires (no knobs), and only ride tubeless (except 650x42mm), so this will be a different experience than with the heavy WTB 650Bx47mm tires.
I love the resurgence in 650b, it means I only have 2 tyre sizes to worry about. I have 650a on my vintage SLRs and club sports, and 650b on my MTB and vintage french roadster.
Could you do a video about the design of cyclocross tire treads and the factors that go into engineering them? I'd love to see the thought process behind them!
Motorcycles went through this transition decades ago. Eventually, bicycles will follow the trend towards smaller diameter wheels, and wider tires. As for me, I will wait out this transition period, until the world of cycling catches up.
Not many years ago I bought the top spec S Works Stumpjumper 120 fsr £5k for trail riding. The following year pretty much, it all started going 29'' and very quickly its value sank like a brick. I still ride it today and people seem shocked I am able to shred on 26'' wheels?!?!? I have been saving up for a new top spec road bike to replace my 2009 tarmac but the only thing holding me back is the speed at which road bikes are evolving right now. I am waiting to see it settle down a little. I think it will settle down to one style of bike....one which both aero, comfortable, light, discs and higher volume tyres. Knowing my luck after I do buy something the road bike world will discover a new wheel size ha ha ha.
To be honest, unless you’re looking to do CX as well, or explore off-road, this video shouldn’t really influence your buying decision. With how comfortable and light modern aero bikes have become it’s hard not to recommend one (especially if you’re running 25 to 28 mm tires) if you’re fine with the slightly more aggressive geometry. Maybe grab something with newer gen disc brakes and you’ll be pretty future proof.
tarmacsurfers it’ll never slow down mate. The industry is only interested in selling you a new bike. - Si said it himself new wheel size (which zipp say is better -I mean who’s going to prove them wrong??) means New frame designs. Bet the frame manufacturers are loving this.
Ryon Beachner oh yeah mate I know just got me wondering if the industry comes up a "new breakthrough" wheel size larger than 700cc that "makes you go even faster" at the same wattage ha ha. Maybe they will all get together and come up with such an idea if sales across the board slowed one year ha ha ha.
I love this channel. I'm new to cycling and I am learning a lot. I wanted smaller tires literally just because I don't like the way 700c road tires look but now I definitly will be getting a 650b. 12% lighter and 7% more aero, no brainer.
Love this - I just bought a new Norco Search XR and a set of Boyd Jocassee 650b wheels. I've been running with the WTB ByWay 47mm tires for most rides, but did put a set of Specialized 2.2" MTB tires for a rather muddy ride yesterday. The bike and wheels are so much fun. It's going to be hard to go back to my traditional road bike!
Interesting. I just checked the rolling diameter of my trike rear wheel and tyre, a 26in with 47mm tyre, and it comes in at 670mm, pretty close to a 700c with 25mm tyres. 2mm difference. I've got Schwalbe marathon plus which are a bit taller than non-armoured tyres. Oddly enough, I have to change the mounting points for the roller on my trainer to fit my bike on it. I think I should try 23mm tyres for the trainer'
Would love to see a video on bike kit fabric and textiles. How does windstopper work? Why is there no such thing as a totally rainproof jacket? How are the reflective bits made? Love the new channel!
My 10 year old bike is equipped with 650c and it has been harder and harder to find. and now this year I can only find continental gaterskin. which i hate. so now i keep seeing 650b everywhere. I am giving my bike a facelift these year. Wanted to buy new wheels. Hope i can just ass 650b stuff to my bike so he can keep on rolling!
I've had a 700c on a 29er wheel set worked just fine. 700c come in tire types that 29er dont try getting a road slick in 29er 700c are all over the place cheap
If you have a multipurpose bike that can swap wheels/tires to handle a little off-road, does the wider fork have any large impact on aerodynamics? it sounds like it might be possible to have one bike with swappable wheels that does more for less money than 2 bikes. But if it the trade-offs dramatically worsen road performance, it might still be worthwhile thinking about 2 bikes instead of 1.
Question... Will larger jockey wheels be a standard at one point in time, why or why not? Brands: CeramicSpeed, Digirit, Kcnc, etc. Do larger jockey wheels change cage-length / cassette choice?
Angle impact of a larger wheel on a 5cm object would less, not more i would have thought. I remember when GT added a 700D rims to their early 90's hybrid mtb's. They also i remember, rolled pretty well even combined with a now heavy cro-mo steel frame.
My wife has a petite bike (43cm tri bike) with 650c x 23 -571. I want o upgrade to 650c x 28. Would the 650B tires fit? Having hard time finding 650c x 28 tires
Don't know the first thing about CX or going off-road, but thoroughly enjoyed geeking out with this video and watching yours and Dan's ride! Great way to procrastinate from exams, more of this please!
Why didn't mountain biking go with 650A, meaning BSD of 590 with MTb thick tires, wonder how it would measure, or could it be the next new weelsize the 28.25er?
To make things more complicated: a bigger wheel and tire with better brakes up front. The rear wheel is dragged over an obstacle (front is pushed over, which is much harder somehow) and is more easily controlled when you lose traction. The front wheel takes about 80% of the braking too. When converting from 26" mtb with rim brakes, it was common to upgrade the fork to a 27,5 or 29" disc brake with better shocks. Best of both worlds. Even today it is common to see 29" front and 27,5" rear on some mtb's This will only carry over to gravel bikes with big clearances in the forks though. You could save some money going for a 650b rear wheel only. Keeping the front 700c. It could also make the geometry more relaxed when running the 650b, a good thing on gnarly gravel.
I guess road bikes are still using standard axle lengths, rather than the boost system on MTBs? That would make swapping between the road and MTB a little more tricky
Love the the bit about borrowing mountain bike wheels instead of buying them :) Fortunately companies already thought about such possibility and are phasing out the 142 on mtb in favor of 148mm (Boost)... or as of last week 157mm. On the other hand - you can probably buy 142mm cheaper from those that have to go Boost.
i guess i will measure out my trekking bike if it would fit much wider tires with 650b instead of 700c wheels to make a really comfy cruiser out of it. but i guess there is not that much more room laterally on the fork anyway
Im planning of buying montra helicon x bicycle it has 27.5 × 1.75 (650b) tires can i change that to hybrid tires or road tires, waiting for your reply, can i use the same stock rims to convert to 700c
I need some clarification on something! I've read posts where people claim that a 23mm 700c tire is equivalent to a 38mm 650b tire. This confuses me! I understand that 23 and 38 are referring to the width of the tire and not the height. The total diameter, according to your video, of all 650 tires is 650mm and all 700c wheels would be 700mm. So the height will always have a 5mm difference? I must be missing something. Can someone help elaborate on this.
According to Trek, changing to a different wheel size other than the stock size will void the warranty. I inquired about putting 650b's onto a CrossRip and this was their official response :(
+Dave Pittman I know of some teams and riders using smaller wheels a long, long time ago - but that was usually to take advantage of lighter wheels for mountain stages. Will be interesting to see what happens with 650B, for sure.
So with all that said, would it be better to run 650B a fatter tire in the front for handling and skinner 650B tire in the rear so less to push while peddling??
You're pushing both tires while pedaling. Just because a tire isn't part of the drivetrain doesn't mean you aren't using your power to accelerate it and keep it rolling. In terms of aerodynamics and suspension, it's probably better to have the skinny tire up front (where the aero contribution is more significant) and the wide tire in back (where it's usually suspending more weight). Bikes that run bigger tires up front are, to my understanding, usually set up that way for handling reasons.
Just my case, I thought the only time to run the 650B are when you are going more off road than on road riding that day.. I agree about the aerodynamics, but when you are flying down a rough trail at different speeds off road you would need the bigger tire up front..
Please, please, please stick to the ETRTO sizes only, as that will remove most of the confusion as to what tire will fit on which rim. The width of the tire then completes the picture. Luckily the ETRTO system includes two numbers, so you get both at teh same time.
Hello, I would like to get on my bike: Triban GRVL 520 Sram Apex 1x11 buy rims DT Swiss G 1800 Spline. And according to the manufacturer, I can use 650x47 or 700x42 Please advise, What option would you choose from my options?
Hi Pavel, thanks for your message! Unfortunately this is a question we can't really answer for you! If you need the chunkier tyres for more "gnarly" roads/off road sections, then your best bet would be to use the smaller wheel. However, if you want to use this bike on the road, or if the gravel/off-road sections you ride are less technical, then you would probably want the 700c option. It's very much personal preference, based on the conditions you ride in. I hope this helps :D
Bigger wheels are not better due to the rotational mass. It rolls better, but climb harder. 26" wheels are still a better choice if you want to be a mountain goat.
With all the current "options" in wheel/tire...is there any advantage to use different tire width front/rear? I'm currently on 23c, but got a 25c and a 28c, same brand/model, new ones. Where should I put each? F>R or R>F? #torqueback
Great video! Could very well be the deciding factor on future bike related purchases! I propably have to rewatch it a few times to understand everything, though.
Hi. Nice vid but a little geeky for me. But I do love this new tech channel! However I did spot a quark power meter on one of those bikes. So that has me wondering was it a 110bcd or a 130 bcd version. If it was the latter(like my own), WHERE can you get smaller ratio chainrings(say 40,42, or 44T) with a narrow wide design?? I am trying to find them as I want to use my power meter with my Sram x1 set up when riding on gravel. Any help appreciated guys.
You guys mentioned coming from the old 26" MTB cross-country days. Other than the obvious drop-bars and shifters, how would my 26" MTB hard-tail be that different? Is what's old, new again?.... Also, wtf is Si drinking? Cider?
Great channel, great video. Sticking to wheels, I’d like to see an indepth video about making the wheels: how many and which spokes (straight pull, j-bend, butted etc), spoketension, lacing patterns (radial, cross etc) and how much does this effect the ride.
I bought a Rondo last week and I can't comment on the 650b tyres as I'm running the 700c with 43mm tyres but it's fantastic for the transition between roads and gravel - like exploring the Fosse Way here in Wiltshire. I can also agree with Si that it's just like riding a 26" wheel rigid cross country race bike from the '90s So much fun and ideal for the most #gcnepic rides!
Too bad UCI sets a minimum diameter of 55cm for wheel+tyre! Otherwise we would be racing with Moulton bikes. I'd love to build a TT bike just on that minimum wheel size limit, there are several smaller rim "standards" but then you can't find nice racing tires. I once had an hybrid with 559 wheels (26er) with 25mm Maxxis Detonator tires, but I can't find those anymore and the bike was sold. At least I'd like a 650C TT bike...
More on riding 650Bs over on GCN here gcn.eu/650bVs700c
No mention of the Cannondale Slate which started it all?
GCN Tech So question, when purchasing wheels by sizes like 27.5 or 29 inches, which is classified as 650b?
As if most people can ride a bike in the first place. They think they can cos they bought some Halfords Lycra lol. So much crap talked about push irons.
⁰⁰😅
Absolutely over the moon that gcn have this tech channel. Love the content so far. Don't really care about all the race/pro rider stuff on the other channel but love to nerd out on the tech.
shenava glad you love it!
Word!
Yeah, this is a great channel, a lot of nerdery going on about the science not just selling parts or bikes (or pros or sponsors). Just started my exploration into biking and GCN Tech youtube channels are the first place I go.
Owning both 700c (w/ 28mm tire) and 650b (w/ 43mm tire) wheelsets for one of my bikes, I can say that the bike handles very differently when I switch. I attribute this mostly to the lower bottom bracket when using the smaller wheel. That lower center of gravity feels much more stable on the road, but also comes with a higher risk of pedal strike if I lean over too far in the corners. Both are fun, but putting fat 700x40mm tires on is the most fun.
Really? I would have thought that the overall diameter of both those wheel setups would have been very similar. I mean a 700c x 35mm tire has the same overall diameter of a 650b x 47mm tire. In fact I would have though that your 650b x 43mm setup might even have a slightly greater overall diameter. Is that not the case? I'm interested as I myself am looking to do the same as yourself for my Giant Contend Disc.
Well it looks like you are right, your 650b x 43mm would be a little lower. Here is a conversion table to just found:
700C x 23mm = 668mm = 650B x 42mm
700C x 28mm = 678mm = 650B x 47mm
700C x 32mm = 686mm = 650B x 50mm
700C x 35mm = 692mm = 27.5 x 2.1”
700C x 38mm = 698mm = 27.5 x 2.25”
www.bikepacking.com/gear/700c-to-650b/
That was fun. I bought a Cannondale Topstone gravel bike that came stock with 700 wheels. Also bought a set of 650b wheels at the same time and immediately started using them as my regular wheels (with various 47mm WTB tires). For most of our gravel, that comes close to switching to a mtb, this is the best option for the gravel bike. Great to have options. Ride what works.
Have you measured the overall gross diameter of the two different wheels and compared? I have a 700C bike on which I would like to run 650B, but want to make sure the diameter isn’t an issue. Ideally the 650B is a slightly smaller diameter. On my particular bike diameter is a big deal. Thanks!
I use 16" wheels on my Brompton, 20" (406 on my tsr moulton & 451 on bobbin metric) 26" x 2.1 on bobbin wagtail, 650c on my vintage lo pro 653 and 700c on a few hub gear and fixie bikes. I use various bikes for tting on (the moulton tsr, kona paddy wagon 3, charge plug fixed and the wagtail, all with a custom aero position) and have noticed very little difference in my average speed and times
Rockinroomsrob Offroad, large wheels being faster makes physical sense. On road, it doesn't and fast road bikes could be designed on whatever fits the rider.
Tech Question: With 700c x 28mm tires on my road bike, I have approximately 3mm clearance on each side of the tire (inside the fork/chain stay/seat stay). The angle of the frame-inside the fork/chain stay/seat stay-increases as it nears the hub. A smaller wheel accommodates a wider tire because its shorter radius sets the tire at a wider point in the frame. The radius of the 700c-from hub to rim-is 311mm (1/2 of 622). The radius on a 650b is 292mm (1/2 of 584). Measuring 292mm up from the hub, I find there is approximately 41mm width inside the fork-where the edge of a 650b wheel would sit. Without knowing the height of a given tire, what's the largest tire my frame can accommodate using a 650b?
Now I can really see the sense of the Tech channel. I think this format of taking a closer look at things at the Tech channel is a great addition to the main channel. Good job!
+Lenn Art thanks Lenn - great to hear 👍
Great way to use both gcn & gcn tech for one same subject, complete coverage ! Big ups
+Mo Schmivatec cheers Mo - really pleased you've enjoyed both videos!
Sooo, its a road fatbike ?
Mtb guy here, i wish you the best of fun with 650b. nice to see you guys are going to smaller wheels when mtbing goes to bigger wheels.
I love my Kona Rove DL running 650b rims and Maxis Receptor tires. Very comfortable and surprisingly agile.
We need a GCN science video on this! I'm interested in an acceleration tests of a 650c vs 700c wheel both with road tires. With 12% weight reduction, 7% aero benefit, and 24% lower rotational inertia I'm guessing it could have a big impact on standing start sprints and even some decent results in rolling start sprints.
+Joshua Piccari sounds like you've done part of the science for us - we'll see what we can do.
That is a great idea.
Alex Stieda rode a 650 Softride with Coors Light in the early 90's and there was some other experimentation among the Pro's. I think Steve Bauer's 1993 Paris Roubaix bike may have used 26's as well, but there a smaller diameter would increase bump force. Most notable is Paula Newby Fraser on a Hamilton with 24"!! wheels front and rear. She smashed the Iron Man record and came in 3rd among the men. 200 gm rim, 140 gm tire and same spoke aerodynamics as a 700c wheel with an 80mm rim. Ridiculous acceleration and aerodynamic and it allowed a tighter, stiffer frame. Banned by the UCI after Atlanta 96.
Interesting! I googled around and found a pic of the bike you mention here: www.active.com/Assets/Triathlon/620x351/paula+newby-fraser+on+bike.jpg
Thats the one! Special build for her. Notice the "uphill" bottom bracket and the apparent length of the chainstays, and the size of the rings. Some is just a visual effect of the wheels. The stays were actually super short at 38cm with plenty of room to go even shorter. This allowed stout stays with no need for crimping. The only reason the stays didnt go any shorter is because the chainline couldnt take it. I wish this design would have survived. Unfortunately it was ahead of its time. It would put deep dish carbon wheels out of business and put a few thousand $$$ back in your pocket.
Seriously love the new channels.
Great work guys
Thanks Luke!
I drank the kool aid & switched to 650b and love it. Its not about the wheel size, it’s running 40psi & cornering @ higher speeds that i love
Smaller rim= shorter spokes. Would this mean a stronger wheel? Stiffer too? Not to mention generally more rubber and air between you and the ground.
Very nice job, thank you for the thorough discussion! Two minor quibbles: First, regarding the use of bead diameter to designate size -- it's the crucial diameter that must be matched by the tire. The other diameters (e.g. to the very top edge of the rim) are inconsistent between wheels that would take the same tire. Second, right around 9:00, you suggest that one could make the steering less ponderous by increasing trail -- I think you meant by decreasing it (or by increasing rake perhaps)?
My experience: I own bikes with 700Cx25mm all the way up to 700Cx42mm tires, 650Bx42mm and 48mm, and 26" x 2.3" (American sizes, sorry there is no metric equivalent, although you could say ISO522x58mm). I'd say the fastest is 700x32mm (on a ~30mm wide rim). 650x42mm is the traditional Randonneur tire and is great for distance. 700x38 mm is my favorite as it's pretty plush and rolls quite fast. 26"x2.3" is great for multi surface riding -- I run them at 25PSI and they are at their best on hard pack and super rough roads. I only use Compass road tires (no knobs), and only ride tubeless (except 650x42mm), so this will be a different experience than with the heavy WTB 650Bx47mm tires.
I love the resurgence in 650b, it means I only have 2 tyre sizes to worry about. I have 650a on my vintage SLRs and club sports, and 650b on my MTB and vintage french roadster.
I love my 26" wheel mtb and my 700c crit race bike all equal here.
Could you do a video about the design of cyclocross tire treads and the factors that go into engineering them? I'd love to see the thought process behind them!
Motorcycles went through this transition decades ago. Eventually, bicycles will follow the trend towards smaller diameter wheels, and wider tires. As for me, I will wait out this transition period, until the world of cycling catches up.
Oh yeah, motorcycle tires are SO much thicker than they used to be!
One day 26" rims will catch on. After millions of circus mountain bikes are sold. Watch.
Not many years ago I bought the top spec S Works Stumpjumper 120 fsr £5k for trail riding. The following year pretty much, it all started going 29'' and very quickly its value sank like a brick. I still ride it today and people seem shocked I am able to shred on 26'' wheels?!?!? I have been saving up for a new top spec road bike to replace my 2009 tarmac but the only thing holding me back is the speed at which road bikes are evolving right now. I am waiting to see it settle down a little. I think it will settle down to one style of bike....one which both aero, comfortable, light, discs and higher volume tyres. Knowing my luck after I do buy something the road bike world will discover a new wheel size ha ha ha.
To be honest, unless you’re looking to do CX as well, or explore off-road, this video shouldn’t really influence your buying decision.
With how comfortable and light modern aero bikes have become it’s hard not to recommend one (especially if you’re running 25 to 28 mm tires) if you’re fine with the slightly more aggressive geometry. Maybe grab something with newer gen disc brakes and you’ll be pretty future proof.
tarmacsurfers it’ll never slow down mate. The industry is only interested in selling you a new bike. - Si said it himself new wheel size (which zipp say is better -I mean who’s going to prove them wrong??) means New frame designs. Bet the frame manufacturers are loving this.
Ryon Beachner oh yeah mate I know just got me wondering if the industry comes up a "new breakthrough" wheel size larger than 700cc that "makes you go even faster" at the same wattage ha ha. Maybe they will all get together and come up with such an idea if sales across the board slowed one year ha ha ha.
David Fellows yeah mate too true, consumerism hey! Ha ha
That is unfortunate timing isn't it?!
I love this channel. I'm new to cycling and I am learning a lot. I wanted smaller tires literally just because I don't like the way 700c road tires look but now I definitly will be getting a 650b. 12% lighter and 7% more aero, no brainer.
Love this - I just bought a new Norco Search XR and a set of Boyd Jocassee 650b wheels. I've been running with the WTB ByWay 47mm tires for most rides, but did put a set of Specialized 2.2" MTB tires for a rather muddy ride yesterday. The bike and wheels are so much fun. It's going to be hard to go back to my traditional road bike!
Also, I can’t believe you didn’t include the clip of Matt decking it going over ‘that log’!! Really interesting video.
Have you done a video on the effects of crank length? If not it could be an interesting one
Interesting. I just checked the rolling diameter of my trike rear wheel and tyre, a 26in with 47mm tyre, and it comes in at 670mm, pretty close to a 700c with 25mm tyres. 2mm difference. I've got Schwalbe marathon plus which are a bit taller than non-armoured tyres.
Oddly enough, I have to change the mounting points for the roller on my trainer to fit my bike on it. I think I should try 23mm tyres for the trainer'
Just bought my 650b boomtrack Hook Ext yesterday... All i can say is it felt awesome. and i have the benefit of 2 bikes in one
How wide are the rims and tires?
2.1inch could easily fit 2.2 in there rims are tubeless ready wtb i19's ie 19mm internal.
Would love to see a video on bike kit fabric and textiles. How does windstopper work? Why is there no such thing as a totally rainproof jacket? How are the reflective bits made? Love the new channel!
With a smaller diameter (shorter spokes) would a 650b wheel also be stiffer & stronger?
4:45 where is the clip of Matt falling over the log?!?
My 10 year old bike is equipped with 650c and it has been harder and harder to find. and now this year I can only find continental gaterskin. which i hate. so now i keep seeing 650b everywhere. I am giving my bike a facelift these year. Wanted to buy new wheels. Hope i can just ass 650b stuff to my bike so he can keep on rolling!
I've had a 700c on a 29er wheel set worked just fine. 700c come in tire types that 29er dont try getting a road slick in 29er 700c are all over the place cheap
Finally the site I've been looking for, great information.Thanks.
Is there such thing as a 650b specific fork or do bike manufacturers just adjust the headtube angle to compensate for the trail difference of 650b?
This was the most helpfull of all the 650vs700 videos
Love it. Got 650B on my gravel/adventure bike and it's been doing OK in the cross, now I'm wondering if I bother with those carbon 700C rims for it.
I instinctively rolled my eyes at the title but goddam if that wasn't properly geeky. Keep them coming Si, absolutely love it.
Love the geeking! How about another session on bike geometry and related handling differences?
+Kaspar Pflugshaupt definitely, that's one that will be coming up soon.
If you have a multipurpose bike that can swap wheels/tires to handle a little off-road, does the wider fork have any large impact on aerodynamics? it sounds like it might be possible to have one bike with swappable wheels that does more for less money than 2 bikes. But if it the trade-offs dramatically worsen road performance, it might still be worthwhile thinking about 2 bikes instead of 1.
@7:10 I don't understand what he's saying about "12 feet off the ground." The handlebars are not 12 feet off the ground at any point, right?
Question... Will larger jockey wheels be a standard at one point in time, why or why not? Brands: CeramicSpeed, Digirit, Kcnc, etc. Do larger jockey wheels change cage-length / cassette choice?
Angle impact of a larger wheel on a 5cm object would less, not more i would have thought.
I remember when GT added a 700D rims to their early 90's hybrid mtb's.
They also i remember, rolled pretty well even combined with a now heavy cro-mo steel frame.
My wife has a petite bike (43cm tri bike) with 650c x 23 -571. I want o upgrade to 650c x 28. Would the 650B tires fit? Having hard time finding 650c x 28 tires
Don't know the first thing about CX or going off-road, but thoroughly enjoyed geeking out with this video and watching yours and Dan's ride! Great way to procrastinate from exams, more of this please!
+James Hughesdon thanks James, more on the way very soon!
With 29s it's not just the angle but the fact they don't fall in to narrow gaps between obstacles bit skip over the top.
Loved it! But now I want a set of 650B wheels with off-road tires to swap out my 700C road set. Aaaahhhhhhh! N+1 strikes again!
I prefer to put on wheels 622mm - tires 48 mm. Why should I choose from two bad options?
I do the reverse with my cross country mtb 650b (27.5x2.1) for trail and 700cx25 for road
Why didn't mountain biking go with 650A, meaning BSD of 590 with MTb thick tires, wonder how it would measure, or could it be the next new weelsize the 28.25er?
Can i use 622x47 or 28x1.75 tube to a 584x42 or 27.5x2.10wheel?
To make things more complicated: a bigger wheel and tire with better brakes up front.
The rear wheel is dragged over an obstacle (front is pushed over, which is much harder somehow) and is more easily controlled when you lose traction. The front wheel takes about 80% of the braking too.
When converting from 26" mtb with rim brakes, it was common to upgrade the fork to a 27,5 or 29" disc brake with better shocks. Best of both worlds.
Even today it is common to see 29" front and 27,5" rear on some mtb's
This will only carry over to gravel bikes with big clearances in the forks though. You could save some money going for a 650b rear wheel only. Keeping the front 700c. It could also make the geometry more relaxed when running the 650b, a good thing on gnarly gravel.
I loved all the detail and explanations in your video.
So does that mean I use my 26" MTB wheels on my Gravel bike which runs 700c wheels, but supports 650b?
Thanks for all the analogy to the MTB world (hello from 2022)
Question. Can i change my 700c wheels into 650c or 650b. Is there any available wheelset using caliper breaks?
I guess road bikes are still using standard axle lengths, rather than the boost system on MTBs? That would make swapping between the road and MTB a little more tricky
Love the the bit about borrowing mountain bike wheels instead of buying them :) Fortunately companies already thought about such possibility and are phasing out the 142 on mtb in favor of 148mm (Boost)... or as of last week 157mm. On the other hand - you can probably buy 142mm cheaper from those that have to go Boost.
Thanks GCN Tech for the explanation.
i guess i will measure out my trekking bike if it would fit much wider tires with 650b instead of 700c wheels to make a really comfy cruiser out of it. but i guess there is not that much more room laterally on the fork anyway
Im planning of buying montra helicon x bicycle it has 27.5 × 1.75 (650b) tires can i change that to hybrid tires or road tires, waiting for your reply, can i use the same stock rims to convert to 700c
That was a pretty impressive recovery from Dan.
What is the working principle of the part you can put in reversed at the fork?
Could you elaborate more on the difference in rolling momentum due to the lesser size and weight of the 650b.
I need some clarification on something! I've read posts where people claim that a 23mm 700c tire is equivalent to a 38mm 650b tire. This confuses me! I understand that 23 and 38 are referring to the width of the tire and not the height. The total diameter, according to your video, of all 650 tires is 650mm and all 700c wheels would be 700mm. So the height will always have a 5mm difference? I must be missing something. Can someone help elaborate on this.
SO MUCH geek! great job
At 9:35 the purple and orange Rondo was on the verge of taking a tumble... should have left it in hahaha
According to Trek, changing to a different wheel size other than the stock size will void the warranty. I inquired about putting 650b's onto a CrossRip and this was their official response :(
If it's harder to turn the handlebars then why not just lean into the turn instead of relying on the handlebars turning (like racing bikes)
Do you think that Pro teams would turn to 650b in races such as Roubaix? Or are they non UCI cleared in the peloton
+Dave Pittman I know of some teams and riders using smaller wheels a long, long time ago - but that was usually to take advantage of lighter wheels for mountain stages. Will be interesting to see what happens with 650B, for sure.
So with all that said, would it be better to run 650B a fatter tire in the front for handling and skinner 650B tire in the rear so less to push while peddling??
You're pushing both tires while pedaling. Just because a tire isn't part of the drivetrain doesn't mean you aren't using your power to accelerate it and keep it rolling.
In terms of aerodynamics and suspension, it's probably better to have the skinny tire up front (where the aero contribution is more significant) and the wide tire in back (where it's usually suspending more weight).
Bikes that run bigger tires up front are, to my understanding, usually set up that way for handling reasons.
Just my case, I thought the only time to run the 650B are when you are going more off road than on road riding that day.. I agree about the aerodynamics, but when you are flying down a rough trail at different speeds off road you would need the bigger tire up front..
What we need is 'The Grand Groadster 750': a Gran Fondo bike that comes with 650B and 700c wheels.
Brilliant recovery and response on that "almost stack" (whatever that means)
At this moment i'm building a gravel bike. I wanne put 650b wheels in the machine. But strugling with the axle. Wich wheels fit a 12mm front axle?
Loving these tech videos. Please keep them coming!
Once tyres are fitted on both 650b and 700c
Won't they be the same size with the 650b fatter tyre?
Please, please, please stick to the ETRTO sizes only, as that will remove most of the confusion as to what tire will fit on which rim. The width of the tire then completes the picture. Luckily the ETRTO system includes two numbers, so you get both at teh same time.
Hello, I would like to get on my bike: Triban GRVL 520 Sram Apex 1x11 buy rims DT Swiss G 1800 Spline. And according to the manufacturer, I can use 650x47 or 700x42 Please advise, What option would you choose from my options?
Hi Pavel, thanks for your message! Unfortunately this is a question we can't really answer for you! If you need the chunkier tyres for more "gnarly" roads/off road sections, then your best bet would be to use the smaller wheel. However, if you want to use this bike on the road, or if the gravel/off-road sections you ride are less technical, then you would probably want the 700c option. It's very much personal preference, based on the conditions you ride in. I hope this helps :D
What about Tarmac sl6.
Can 650b wheels fit on them.
can my aero frame disc fit a 650b?
what about a gmbn vs gcn with 650b gravel bike and 650b mtb it could make an interesting challenge
gmbn did this.
zeus dreadbeard link?
Brilliant content, love the explanations. It is for me a new advantage to change to disc brakes: compatibility of wheels with my mountain bike!
+Dam C thanks!
Bigger wheels are not better due to the rotational mass. It rolls better, but climb harder. 26" wheels are still a better choice if you want to be a mountain goat.
Will these 650 B wheels work in a New Trek Emonda Slr 8 disc?
Roman Peñas I want to know as well
Great job on this wheel tech discussion you guys. Very informative. And done with you classic witty humor! Thanks!
With all the current "options" in wheel/tire...is there any advantage to use different tire width front/rear? I'm currently on 23c, but got a 25c and a 28c, same brand/model, new ones. Where should I put each? F>R or R>F? #torqueback
Erik Castañeda F>R is what mtbers often do because you really don’t want to slide the front out.
I didn't get "tired" of watching this. Thanks!
Great video! Could very well be the deciding factor on future bike related purchases! I propably have to rewatch it a few times to understand everything, though.
Hi. Nice vid but a little geeky for me. But I do love this new tech channel!
However I did spot a quark power meter on one of those bikes. So that has me wondering was it a 110bcd or a 130 bcd version. If it was the latter(like my own), WHERE can you get smaller ratio chainrings(say 40,42, or 44T) with a narrow wide design??
I am trying to find them as I want to use my power meter with my Sram x1 set up when riding on gravel. Any help appreciated guys.
Could you do a video on how different bike geometry, angles etc. affect a bike's characteristics?
Can you use a 650c tire on 650b wheel?
i'm interested to see zipp's study on the aerodynamic gains of a 650b wheel. and also, what's that background music from 5:35 on?
Does switching from 700c to 650b can lower the ground clearance?
Put some 29er mountain bike tires on the Eurobike and make a video. What will it feel like then?
‘Emma Pooley used a Cervelo P3’ and then features a picture of a P4!
Benjamin Morrison You can’t win a world title when you’re already in World Champs kit... Think she rode a P4 the year after her win.
Simon Richardson Ahh, fair enough mate. Cheers for the reply.
You guys mentioned coming from the old 26" MTB cross-country days. Other than the obvious drop-bars and shifters, how would my 26" MTB hard-tail be that different? Is what's old, new again?.... Also, wtf is Si drinking? Cider?
Great channel, great video. Sticking to wheels, I’d like to see an indepth video about making the wheels: how many and which spokes (straight pull, j-bend, butted etc), spoketension, lacing patterns (radial, cross etc) and how much does this effect the ride.
Great idea. We've got a corker on GCN on how DT Swiss build wheels to keep you going until then... gcn.eu/BuildWheel
I bought a Rondo last week and I can't comment on the 650b tyres as I'm running the 700c with 43mm tyres but it's fantastic for the transition between roads and gravel - like exploring the Fosse Way here in Wiltshire. I can also agree with Si that it's just like riding a 26" wheel rigid cross country race bike from the '90s So much fun and ideal for the most #gcnepic rides!
Oooh some great gravel there Morgan!
Thank you! Nice Video!
Too bad UCI sets a minimum diameter of 55cm for wheel+tyre! Otherwise we would be racing with Moulton bikes.
I'd love to build a TT bike just on that minimum wheel size limit, there are several smaller rim "standards" but then you can't find nice racing tires. I once had an hybrid with 559 wheels (26er) with 25mm Maxxis Detonator tires, but I can't find those anymore and the bike was sold. At least I'd like a 650C TT bike...