Debbie, a while ago you mentioned you couldn't find women's pants with deep pockets. I found some! They're at Target in the active wear section. They are called joggers with cuffs on the leg so they won't ride up if you sleep in them. The brand name is called All In Motion. They have 2 very deep pockets, an elastic waistband with an elastic drawstring and very soft and warm. The cost is $22.00.
Thanks Linda. I've noticed in the last year that there are a ton more companies putting pockets in their active wear. I'll check them out next time I'm at Target.
First burrito I enjoyed was back in 70’s traveling by v.w. from Massachusetts . Best travel,camp food out there. Any combo of food as long as cheese is involved. Still a stable for us.
We have been watching you for quite sometime and you have improved so so much. It’s been fun watching the growth of the content and photography in your videos. Hope you have a blessed and healthy Thanksgiving.
Thank you. I recently watched an old video from Gone with the Wynn's and it was fun to see how far they have come. I still have a long way to go but it's been fun.
DEBBY &JOHN, HELLO, what beautiful coloured mountains those were when you started , I used to have a marine aquarium , & used to hatch my own brine shrimp eggs to feed most , m , bun1 I tried to e liv small goldfish, but , are you ready , liked frozen shrimp,king crab, lobster, but really loved scallops, I usd to get like a stick of butter, just shaved a bit until wanted no more, it used to try to eat smaller fish in my tank, it was a POLKA DOTTED GROUPER 5”, when I bought it , but got to 10” when it died , now the sheep, Not even in SCOTLAND, or IRELAND were that many AU, or NZ yes , all my lamb comes from AU @ COSTCO, , & yes BORDER COLLIES are the PREFFERED HEARDING DOGS, So you are back to masks in CALIFORNIA, same here still, BTW. had you ver signed any petetisions to get Reid of ANY TWOSOME NEWSOME ? The bastard could NOT run SFO , oh well, stay well, safe travels Cheers 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
No geodes!?! We love rock hounding. Not may places close by here in Florida, but when we lived out west we went as often as possible. Everyone is making me homesick going to places in Utah that I grew up around. Sheep drives on Cedar Mountain are the best.
Ahhhh you missed the museum in Delta. Next time you are in Fillmore go to Delta and check out the Japanese internment camp from WWII. The best way to see it is with a guide, you can make arrangements through the museum. If you like history it’s worth every penny.
I wish I had known. We went through Delta twice this year. Had no idea they had an internment camp. We have been to the Manzanar camp a few times. They have a very nice museum but it is closed right now.
Love you videos. We watch them every time. But, RUclips's search is not so helpful for me. I remember a video that you talked about sending your oil or for analysis, but I can not find the video. Can you tell me who you use and an referral info if they do that? Thank you so much!
Thanks. We send ours to Blackstone-labs.com I learned about them from Keep Your Daydreams. Very quick turn around. Sorry, I don't have a referral code.
Wish we could tell you how many times we said WOW! and AAAAAH! What a great privilege it is to be able to ride in the van with you as you show us places we wish were close to home for us. We’re really glad you loved the recipe. Your version looked delicious. Jane is right too... that was the coolest traffic jam we’ve ever seen. Our previous pup before Maggie was a Border Collie so seeing all those borders doing what they do in the video was amazing and brought back great memories. I have to ask... what does sheep poop smell like? 😂. See you soon.
We also loved your music choice. Words to live by at the end, certainly resonated wtih me. I was very grateful today to have beautiful weather and be able to mow my lawn (hopefully for the last time this year) this late in November. As I was mowing I was envisioning being on the road next year and not having to mow any longer or rake those dreaded pine needles.Our goal is to be houseless next year and on the road. I have so enjoyed the places you and John go and thank you for a bright spot in our week!
That was the coolest traffic jam ever! I loved watching the dogs work (and the guys on horseback). The burrito/taco looked good, but I missed seeing the happy dance🤣. I loved you using “Michael Row The Boat Ashore” as your background. Great videos, music choice and info...you just keep getting better! ❤️🙏🏻Jane in SC. Thanks again for sharing the journey with us!
Hi , Where did you get that backpack on the back of your van? I think you said before what it was but I can’t find it and I am curious. It looks handy .
My wife and I got caught behind a gigantic “sheep jam” in New Zealand. So much fun! On a completely different subject, we’re RV newbies. Do you have any thoughts on the value or usefulness of the “Good Sam” club? Thanks and everyone stay safe.
If you plan to stay at a lot of private RV parks where you get a discount with the card, it might be worthwhile. I don't really know much about their other services. We have AAA towing for RVs so don't need that. Sorry I can't be of more help with your question.
Border collies are so amazing. (I just noticed that the latest Apple icon choice if you type in "dog" is a fancy poodle 🐩 . I think we need to make equal time for shepherds and terriers.) Nice scenery, too. 🏜
We don't have a tick problem in the desert but we do check ourselves and carry an extraction tool. We also don't worry about snakes but do stay alert as we have seen them on a number of occasions. And we use our walking sticks to probe brush. Mountain lions are more of a concern because they will stalk you and you won't have a clue that they are there.
Your video took us right back to driving through those rock arches and one of the best road trips of our lives! Thanks for that, the sheep jam (so cool to see them work), the musical sunset and thoughtful close🥰 Happy Thanksgiving!
Love Cedar Break and Dixie and hardly no one goes to Cedar Break and the road between Bryce and Cedar City and nice little stops along the way with lace rocks, aspens, and great contrasting fall colors and the black rocks. .
The Fillmore KOA is indeed a nice one. I was there a few weeks after you were there, and it was quite a snowstorm and cold snap; 18" of snow in the campground temps in the teens. As for north of SLC, we've appreciated Willard Bay State Park campground. There're two cg's there; by far the best is the one with sites spaced far apart.
I spent three years stationed at Hill AFB In Ogden, UT, went to Salt Lake City a lot. It’s a beautiful state, I hope to visit soon. Thanks for the tour.
First sheep drive I’ve seen. We have cattle drives in NE, also supplemented by dogs, horses, and the state patrol or sheriff deputies (can’t remember which). Love that you take us along on your adventures, Debbie & John.
Another wonderful video. Watching the shepherds move the sheep, reminded me of growing up in Arizona. In the fall they would move the sheep down out of the mountains into the valley of the sun, (Mesa area) and in the spring they would move them back up into the high county. Spent a lot of time, sitting in the car watching sheep go by. Loved the music you played while the brine shrimp boats came in. (Michael row the boat ashore). Also, really appreciated your comments as you closed the video. So meaningful and true. You and John are two very special people.
Would mine saying what month you are camping in so we have an idea about weather and temperatures for the areas ☺️ Thank you Just love you videos i also have a pleasure way and wish i could travel as much as you so traveling vicariously ☺️
That was early October. Temps bounce up and down all fall so you never know what you are going to get. But the great thing is if you don't like the temp where you are you can find a better elevation in a matter of minutes to suit your temperature needs.
Wow that was a lot of sheep! That one dog was really working them. We were stuck behind cow herds in Mexico and Costa Rica, but never sheep and sheep just sounds funny! I like that you think John is directionally challenged... I think Jim is too.
LOL. I think it goes along with their unwillingness to ask directions. I've been meaning to to ask you for your favorite campgrounds west of the Sierras, just in case we get a chance to get out.
@@FromShetoMe ha ha! I am constantly navigating and explaining well ahead of time - along the lines of: We will cross some railroad tracks, then we immediately turn left and he will start to go right. Let me know what area you are thinking of and I will see what I come up with!
From She to Me Plaskett Creek on the coast is nice. In the Western Sierra Foothills we liked Indian Grinding Rock, Big Oak in New Melones Lake, Balch Park in Mountain Home State Demonstration Forest (closes during snow & May have burned) & Harvest Hosts - Indigeny Reserve, Vista Ranch Winery & Twisted Oak Winery.
Adventure in U-TAH..years ago what a mother-daughter (from MI) and Little Maggie look-alike pup did with the truck and 5th wheel. Boy, did we have a great time there. Friends asked why in the world go to U-TAH and we would smile and say IF YOU HAVE TO ASK,YOU WOULDN’T UNDERSTAND. Love your videos, thank you.
@@FromShetoMe We just decided "what the heck?" It all keeps and heats up when we're hungry. We're having some champagne now - or Prosecco - I forget. Oh, let's just say sparkling wine (in California, these distinctions seem actually serious). And I told Jerry that I'm grateful that he's not disappointed to be married to a woman who isn't a great cook and can't get things out at the right time! Ho ho ho Mince pies's in the oven (thank you, Mr Cross & Blackwell and Mrs. Pillsbury) and that's all he really cares about. As you said, men are so easy.
Thanks for taking all of us lonesome sheepboys with you. You really DID have your phone repaired! And I had hoped for even better quality pictures with a new one! - Just kidding! As long as sth. can be repaired it ought to be repaired!!!! As little waste as possible. - Greetings from Bavaria, Germany.
Well, I have to admit, I now have a new phone but they weren't out at the time. But since we lease our phones, I'm sure the old one will find a good home.
We can't wait to give the Polarsteps App a try when we start traveling with our new Pleasure-Way OnTour 2.0, hopefully in late Spring of 2021. What a great way for family and friends to keep track and get an idea of where we are at with our travels. Thank you for mentioning the app. Another great video !!!
Thanks for sharing! When you were washing the van and bikes and noted not to spray hubs directly, were you referring to the van or the bikes? Thanks! Stay Safe!
So glad you did this trip. Showing that Utah is more than just Moab or Zion. So so much more. Edit: Too bad you didn't hit Simpson springs. Wild horses are amazing to watch.
You are going to love Great Basin. The campground at top of mountain is the most beautiful. The cave tour is very good. This area is very remote so go prepared. I enjoyed hearing Michael row your boat ashore, took me back to childhood Sunday school. Thank you
It may slightly block the license plate. I've been meaning to order one that will mount on the rack. Hasn't blocked our rear sensors. Don't know if they changed anything on the newer rigs though.
🐑Sheep=A++ 🪝🛥 Row your boat ashore=A++ Modified Owen Burrito to 🌮Taco=A++ 🚐💧Wash=A++ 📱Fix=A++ Enjoyed the Video very much! Thank you for sharing.
Oh SPEED BUMPS are called SLEEPING POLICEMEN, in BRITISH countries 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Debbie, a while ago you mentioned you couldn't find women's pants with deep pockets. I found some!
They're at Target in the active wear section. They are called joggers with cuffs on the leg so they won't ride up if you sleep in them. The brand name is called All In Motion. They have 2 very deep pockets, an elastic waistband with an elastic drawstring and very soft and warm. The cost is $22.00.
Thanks Linda. I've noticed in the last year that there are a ton more companies putting pockets in their active wear. I'll check them out next time I'm at Target.
Love watching your videos. Thank you
Living in Montana we see cattle being herded down the road, but that was a lot of sheep! Nice video.
First burrito I enjoyed was back in 70’s traveling by v.w. from Massachusetts . Best travel,camp food out there. Any combo of food as long as cheese is involved. Still a stable for us.
You've got that right--give me a burrito and I'm a happy camper.
We have been watching you for quite sometime and you have improved so so much. It’s been fun watching the growth of the content and photography in your videos. Hope you have a blessed and healthy Thanksgiving.
Thank you. I recently watched an old video from Gone with the Wynn's and it was fun to see how far they have come. I still have a long way to go but it's been fun.
DEBBY &JOHN, HELLO, what beautiful coloured mountains those were when you started , I used to have a marine aquarium , & used to hatch my own brine shrimp eggs to feed most , m , bun1 I tried to e liv small goldfish, but , are you ready , liked frozen shrimp,king crab, lobster, but really loved scallops, I usd to get like a stick of butter, just shaved a bit until wanted no more, it used to try to eat smaller fish in my tank, it was a POLKA DOTTED GROUPER 5”, when I bought it , but got to 10” when it died , now the sheep, Not even in SCOTLAND, or IRELAND were that many AU, or NZ yes , all my lamb comes from AU @ COSTCO, , & yes BORDER COLLIES are the PREFFERED HEARDING DOGS, So you are back to masks in CALIFORNIA, same here still, BTW. had you ver signed any petetisions to get Reid of ANY TWOSOME NEWSOME ? The bastard could NOT run SFO , oh well, stay well, safe travels Cheers 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
No geodes!?! We love rock hounding. Not may places close by here in Florida, but when we lived out west we went as often as possible. Everyone is making me homesick going to places in Utah that I grew up around. Sheep drives on Cedar Mountain are the best.
I was very disappointed we didn't get to go geode hunting but just one more reason to go back.
Great footage of the traffic jam. Entertaining.
Ahhhh you missed the museum in Delta. Next time you are in Fillmore go to Delta and check out the Japanese internment camp from WWII. The best way to see it is with a guide, you can make arrangements through the museum. If you like history it’s worth every penny.
I wish I had known. We went through Delta twice this year. Had no idea they had an internment camp. We have been to the Manzanar camp a few times. They have a very nice museum but it is closed right now.
Love you videos. We watch them every time. But, RUclips's search is not so helpful for me. I remember a video that you talked about sending your oil or for analysis, but I can not find the video. Can you tell me who you use and an referral info if they do that? Thank you so much!
Thanks. We send ours to Blackstone-labs.com
I learned about them from Keep Your Daydreams. Very quick turn around. Sorry, I don't have a referral code.
Wish we could tell you how many times we said WOW! and AAAAAH! What a great privilege it is to be able to ride in the van with you as you show us places we wish were close to home for us. We’re really glad you loved the recipe. Your version looked delicious. Jane is right too... that was the coolest traffic jam we’ve ever seen. Our previous pup before Maggie was a Border Collie so seeing all those borders doing what they do in the video was amazing and brought back great memories. I have to ask... what does sheep poop smell like? 😂. See you soon.
Josie and I truly enjoy your videos very much. Thank you for sharing. Iván & Josie
Thank you so much!
We also loved your music choice. Words to live by at the end, certainly resonated wtih me. I was very grateful today to have beautiful weather and be able to mow my lawn (hopefully for the last time this year) this late in November. As I was mowing I was envisioning being on the road next year and not having to mow any longer or rake those dreaded pine needles.Our goal is to be houseless next year and on the road. I have so enjoyed the places you and John go and thank you for a bright spot in our week!
LOL. We don't have a lawn but yesterday I helped our neighbor mow his. He lets me keep the leaves and grass for my compost pile.
That was the coolest traffic jam ever! I loved watching the dogs work (and the guys on horseback). The burrito/taco looked good, but I missed seeing the happy dance🤣. I loved you using “Michael Row The Boat Ashore” as your background. Great videos, music choice and info...you just keep getting better! ❤️🙏🏻Jane in SC. Thanks again for sharing the journey with us!
Thank you! I wanted to get out there with the sheep. The last thing I ever thought we'd experience.
Hi , Where did you get that backpack on the back of your van? I think you said before what it was but I can’t find it and I am curious. It looks handy .
It's called a Trasharoo and it is very handy. It is listed in my Amazon Storefront (link in description box).
KATIE, my boarder collie would have loved to have helped rangle those sheep!
I bet she would. They were fun to watch but they did look a little bit skinny.
Nice music match with the boats. Your editing continues to flower. Regards from Bama!
Hi, how are you?
~ South Korea began to get cold after heavy rain last week.
I hope health and good things will be with you this week as well. ^O^
My wife and I got caught behind a gigantic “sheep jam” in New Zealand. So much fun! On a completely different subject, we’re RV newbies. Do you have any thoughts on the value or usefulness of the “Good Sam” club? Thanks and everyone stay safe.
If you plan to stay at a lot of private RV parks where you get a discount with the card, it might be worthwhile. I don't really know much about their other services. We have AAA towing for RVs so don't need that. Sorry I can't be of more help with your question.
@@FromShetoMe Thanks very much. Stay healthy.
In the last month, I have hiked over a 100 miles in the mountains here. Utah is a great place. Great videos. Thanks,
Border collies are so amazing. (I just noticed that the latest Apple icon choice if you type in "dog" is a fancy poodle 🐩 . I think we need to make equal time for shepherds and terriers.)
Nice scenery, too. 🏜
With all your hiking aren't you afraid of snakes and lime ticks ?
We don't have a tick problem in the desert but we do check ourselves and carry an extraction tool. We also don't worry about snakes but do stay alert as we have seen them on a number of occasions. And we use our walking sticks to probe brush. Mountain lions are more of a concern because they will stalk you and you won't have a clue that they are there.
Great video. Thank you for taking us with you. Blessings
Your video took us right back to driving through those rock arches and one of the best road trips of our lives! Thanks for that, the sheep jam (so cool to see them work), the musical sunset and thoughtful close🥰 Happy Thanksgiving!
When are you guys going link up Van Trekking? It would be an awesome video!
Hopefully this winter/spring; who knows with COVID. But we are looking forward to it.
Great presentation on the sheep blocking the road that was so cool. Glad you got your phone fixed , and you guys too stay safe on the road .
Cedar Breaks monument is one of my favorite places!
We experienced a similar cow jam in Wyoming a few (or more) years back. I boys were young and thought that was the coolest!
Love Cedar Break and Dixie and hardly no one goes to Cedar Break and the road between Bryce and Cedar City and nice little stops along the way with lace rocks, aspens, and great contrasting fall colors and the black rocks. .
Their campground closes early so we had to move on but looks like there are a number of good hikes to come back for.
A neat place and Brian’s Head is small ski town further north. Off the beaten path and low on people. Stay safe. Headed to FL
cool
The Fillmore KOA is indeed a nice one. I was there a few weeks after you were there, and it was quite a snowstorm and cold snap; 18" of snow in the campground temps in the teens. As for north of SLC, we've appreciated Willard Bay State Park campground. There're two cg's there; by far the best is the one with sites spaced far apart.
Thanks for the tip.
I spent three years stationed at Hill AFB In Ogden, UT, went to Salt Lake City a lot. It’s a beautiful state, I hope to visit soon. Thanks for the tour.
Thanks Debbie and John. Hope you have a nice Thanksgiving. I’m guessing that by this time you have returned to your home base.
Yes, we’re home and we’ll have a quiet meal for 2. Thanks.
Thanks again for a great video, really cool watching the dogs herding the sheep. You guys be safe.
Another great video! Kind of off topic but how are you liking your new fridge?
Loving it. Another viewer just had one installed up in Washington State and she is loving it too.
Thanks! I’ve been considering the same one for my van build!
I grew up just east of that smelter in magna. Now happy to be a Californian but do miss Utah. Great video
First sheep drive I’ve seen. We have cattle drives in NE, also supplemented by dogs, horses, and the state patrol or sheriff deputies (can’t remember which). Love that you take us along on your adventures, Debbie & John.
Looking forward to the Great Basin visit. We spent 2 weeks there in June/July 2019, and we really enjoyed it.
We only spent one night because it was soooo cold. But it's close enough we can easily go back...and will.
Another wonderful video. Watching the shepherds move the sheep, reminded me of growing up in Arizona. In the fall they would move the sheep down out of the mountains into the valley of the sun, (Mesa area) and in the spring they would move them back up into the high county. Spent a lot of time, sitting in the car watching sheep go by. Loved the music you played while the brine shrimp boats came in. (Michael row the boat ashore). Also, really appreciated your comments as you closed the video. So meaningful and true. You and John are two very special people.
Well, we think you’re pretty special. Thanks.
Would mine saying what month you are camping in so we have an idea about weather and temperatures for the areas ☺️ Thank you Just love you videos i also have a pleasure way and wish i could travel as much as you so traveling vicariously ☺️
That was early October. Temps bounce up and down all fall so you never know what you are going to get. But the great thing is if you don't like the temp where you are you can find a better elevation in a matter of minutes to suit your temperature needs.
I use to run into sheep jams in Colorado, love watching the dogs work them across the road. Thanks for another fun trip.
Wow that was a lot of sheep! That one dog was really working them. We were stuck behind cow herds in Mexico and Costa Rica, but never sheep and sheep just sounds funny! I like that you think John is directionally challenged... I think Jim is too.
LOL. I think it goes along with their unwillingness to ask directions. I've been meaning to to ask you for your favorite campgrounds west of the Sierras, just in case we get a chance to get out.
@@FromShetoMe ha ha! I am constantly navigating and explaining well ahead of time - along the lines of: We will cross some railroad tracks, then we immediately turn left and he will start to go right. Let me know what area you are thinking of and I will see what I come up with!
@@TravelSmallLiveBig We haven't camped along the coast since college. Maybe in the central coast or just over the mountains on the side of the valley.
From She to Me Plaskett Creek on the coast is nice. In the Western Sierra Foothills we liked Indian Grinding Rock, Big Oak in New Melones Lake, Balch Park in Mountain Home State Demonstration Forest (closes during snow & May have burned) & Harvest Hosts - Indigeny Reserve, Vista Ranch Winery & Twisted Oak Winery.
@@TravelSmallLiveBig Thanks you so much! Hope our paths cross some day.
Thank you for all the information you share! Going to be on the road for 3 months starting in December.
Have fun!
Whoa that is a lot of sheep! Cool to see the process, especially the dogs working. Beautiful sunset photos! 🌤
That’s a lot of sheep
Another Great Video... I can’t wait to take our e-fat bikes out there.
Our Haibike’s love dirt and chunky trails... 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Adventure in U-TAH..years ago what a mother-daughter (from MI) and Little Maggie look-alike pup did with the truck and 5th wheel. Boy, did we have a great time there. Friends asked why in the world go to U-TAH and we would smile and say IF YOU HAVE TO ASK,YOU WOULDN’T UNDERSTAND. Love your videos, thank you.
For sure; you could spend years exploring that great place!
Hey Sis, you missed a spot! Just always wanted to say that! Fun trip!
Well said. And that was some sheep herd!
Happy Thankshiving! My dinner is ready early and neither of us is hungry, but other than that it's all good!
Thanks! You too! We just finished a nice quiet dinner for 2. Will walk around the neighborhood and then come back for pie.
@@FromShetoMe We just decided "what the heck?" It all keeps and heats up when we're hungry. We're having some champagne now - or Prosecco - I forget. Oh, let's just say sparkling wine (in California, these distinctions seem actually serious). And I told Jerry that I'm grateful that he's not disappointed to be married to a woman who isn't a great cook and can't get things out at the right time! Ho ho ho
Mince pies's in the oven (thank you, Mr Cross & Blackwell and Mrs. Pillsbury) and that's all he really cares about. As you said, men are so easy.
You can moochdock at our place next time in SLC, 3 blocks walking distance to the Apple Store (City Creek Center)
Thanks for taking all of us lonesome sheepboys with you. You really DID have your phone repaired! And I had hoped for even better quality pictures with a new one! - Just kidding! As long as sth. can be repaired it ought to be repaired!!!! As little waste as possible. - Greetings from Bavaria, Germany.
Well, I have to admit, I now have a new phone but they weren't out at the time. But since we lease our phones, I'm sure the old one will find a good home.
We can't wait to give the Polarsteps App a try when we start traveling with our new Pleasure-Way OnTour 2.0, hopefully in late Spring of 2021. What a great way for family and friends to keep track and get an idea of where we are at with our travels. Thank you for mentioning the app. Another great video !!!
Highlights for me: background music, especially Michael..., voiceovers and, of course, the sheep roundup or troop movement or whatever you call it.😎
Living, loving, appreciating and flowing...and laughing..Great job!
When’s your next video
Every friday Kiddo.
Thanks for sharing! When you were washing the van and bikes and noted not to spray hubs directly, were you referring to the van or the bikes? Thanks! Stay Safe!
Bike hubs. Its OK to get the rads wet but they say avoid the hubs.
So glad you did this trip. Showing that Utah is more than just Moab or Zion. So so much more.
Edit: Too bad you didn't hit Simpson springs. Wild horses are amazing to watch.
Me too. The washboards were pretty bad and we didn't want to drive in the dark. But we'll go back.
@@FromShetoMe it has it's own beauty out there. I can't wait for next weeks video. I love Great Basin!
You guys continue to do a wonderful job on the video’s! Thanks for sharing and spending the time on putting these together
Thanks. Glad you like them!
Those dogs herding the sheep are quite impressive!
Cool sheep herding! Loved the music!
Thanks for another great video! Would you consider doing a Q&A sometime?
You are going to love Great Basin. The campground at top of mountain is the most beautiful. The cave tour is very good. This area is very remote so go prepared. I enjoyed hearing Michael row your boat ashore, took me back to childhood Sunday school. Thank you
Thanks. I'm not ready to do anything "live;" I think the technical part would be a disaster. But some day.
Sounds good! Just thought I would ask.
Hi. I have a question. Does your bike rack block the license plate and the rear sensors? Thanks
It may slightly block the license plate. I've been meaning to order one that will mount on the rack. Hasn't blocked our rear sensors. Don't know if they changed anything on the newer rigs though.