Beasts of Chaos Battletome Review - Warhammer Weekly 02082023
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- Join us for another week of news, rumors and all things Warhammering! This week, we are breaking down the new Beasts of Chaos battletome. Much like last week's review, this tome has seen some BIG changes. So the question is - are these changes for the better? We break down the new tome and its wins and losses.
#warhammer #ageofsigmar #beastsofchaos
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14:10 Pick of the Week
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20:15 BoC
1:02:50 Great Frays
1:12:45 GS&BT
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Congratulations on 100K and to Vince, Tyler, Tom and all the guests that make this worth watching every week. Had my first game in years recently and it was much more fun than I thought it would be. Defo wouldnt of happened without the positivity and enthusiasm right here. Seems I timed a return perfectly. Onward to maybe the best year ever for this game. Nice one guys.
100K!! Grats!! - ill be celebrating with You by buing my first airbrush after 3years painting :D
I think folks are sleeping hard on chaos gargants. Also I'm surprised Vince, I was certain you'd love the wound economy and board presence of Warhounds. Also happy to see you finally liking Cygors. I'm excited to return to the army this is the reimagining of this army I've been waiting for.
Matt was an awesome guest. Very insightful and you can hear his love for BoC. Great show as always!
Sorry Tom wasnt on the show today everyone, he's been too busy at the non stop Lizard party thats going on. Just as we thought DJ Kroaky Kroak was losing some volume, that brand new beautiful Astrolith Bearer came in and amplified those sick Lizard beats!
Cool think about the Ghorgon’s Swallow Whole ability is that it’s after the pile in, so you can heal before checking the wounds table for number of attacks
Cheeky!
I played against Matt at LVO. He was such a fun opponent, and really knows his stuff with Beasts of Chaos. Exciting to see him on Warhammer Weekly!
Beasts of Chaos seems to have something to offer all the Psychographic Profiles, in terms of subfactions:
-Spike loves Allherd, because that's just pure value.
-Johnny loves Darkstalkers, because the ability to remove units to come back later is another tool in their toolbox.
-Timmy loves Quakefray because Giant Monsters That Also Cast, and to a certain extent Gavespawn for the unlimited creative potential to unleash kitbashed abominations to sow mayhem.
I think you're dea don there.
i like it, it feels a lot like the glow up the nighthaunt recieved. its definitely a thinking mans army now. i think the warscrolls are almost all hits, few misses in my opinion, i just think the points are quite mismatched on some things. some stuff waaaay too high, a few things probably a bit too low, but i'd rather have bad points than bad warscrolls, points are easier to fix
Tyler is the ideal man. Under appreciated in the modern era. But the essence of a noble man.
I'm so excited to get my goats back on the table. I've played them since the 5th ed. warhammer fantasy when what your Chaos army was determined by the general defining what was common for you. They've lived on the shelf for a while cause goats have been the bad pad part of the army for a while. I can feel the bray building again already.
The cockatrice is an exercise in how to shift mountains of old resin stock.
Love this in depth coverage. This is the Tome review vid I was waiting for.
An interesting quirk of timing with the Doombull and Bullgor charge Mortal wounds is that they trigger the roll at the end of the phase. This means if you use Slaughterer's Call at the top of combat the mortals won't happen until AFTER you've fought. This is unfortunate if you wanted the mortals to chip the units efficiency, but it makes achieving the Battle Tactic Trampled to Mulch seem much more achievable where you kill a unit with impact hits.
I’m thrilled that Quakefray is an option. I have 6 Cygors/Ghorgons built and painted, and 1 more in a box, given to me by THE Owen Jackson. Need a special plan for that one. Just a shame there’s no option for a Cygor hero. Maybe I make the OJ Cygor into the named Cygor character from the lore 🤔
Absolutely agreed, a real miss not having a full Cygor hero.
As someone who has written all of my BoC lists around doombulls and bullgors I'm really happy that they'be gotten a bit better now and do plenty of mortal wounds.
Like I didn't care about whether or not they were good, I just modeled them after Tauren from warcraft and was happy as long as they didn't outright suck.
Great break down, as always! I’m looking forward to running my goat heavy army and seeing if it’s any good.
As a dedicate player to beasts, here are my ideas on it.
Overall
The book is good, the new playstyle is fine, the Rituals are different and fun, most units got a glow up, Ambush is better, but there are still some negatives.
The speed is in a weird spot, its hit or miss and only works at certain times, we are a combat speed army now, not a movement speed army.
Most warscrolls are fine, tough some has been nerfed, are just bad now, or over costed, but the majority are very good now.
BoC are a very glass army with ways to mitigate damage in the form of -1atks, only hit on 6s, fight lasts, rituals, large healing, etc... which when they work they work, but when they don't its bad, the army is very polarizing bc of this IMO, and also makes them a weird feels bad army, you will at times completely wreck you opponents and other times they wreck you.
The good: Most warscroll are good, I'd say all but a handful are very good. Some of the combos are honestly insane now too, Slitherwrack helm on the Doombull to counter charge in your opponent turn to make a strike last unit and doing MWs after a unit could have also Unleashed Hell, could have made you -1 atks, and only hit son 6's, Rituals +6" range working while in Ambush with Raiders able to double tap, etc... there are a lot of little tech that can change the game state in insane ways.
Doombull, Bullgors, Slaangors, Gors, Giant, Cockatrice, Morghurite Spawns, Chariots, Cygors, Shamans, Tshamans, are all insanely good and you can make a lot of nice combos with them. You will 100% for sure see Doombulls, Bullgors, and Giants in every list now.
Spells
The Bad: There are some warscrolls that are just bad and some points are grossly too high. Jabber was nerfed beyond playable IMO, I wouldn't take until it was at 100pts. Chimera is equal to a cockatrice now for some reason in damage (if it charged), it lost of lot of its damage bc less MWs and less rend, but it also no longer brackets, still over costed.
Bestigors is one of the saddest units, Gors out preform in almost everyway, even if they had 2D they would just be on par with other units in the book, they are grossly over costed, by 50-60pts at least. Enlighten on foot got such a high point increase I honestly think its a typo. Skyfires in this season are never going to be worth it. Shaggoth got a huge points hike, it is way over costed now, by at least 75pts, if it was 9w, or 3+ save with 2 casts instead of 1, yes then it would be worth its points.
2 of the 4 Rituals are extremely niche and only work on your turn, which is ignore battleshock for 1 unit, and a 6+ ward on 1 unit, while this only works on your turn its not going to come up often at all.
My favorite list so far out of some test games
Allherd
Doombull, Sitherwrack Helm, Fueled by Ghurish Rage, Bestial Cunning
Tshaman, Arcane Tome
Shaman
Shaman
Gors x30 Shields
Ungors x10
Ungors x10
Chaos Gargant
Cygor
Bullgors x6
Slaangors x6
Direhorn
Galletian Veterans
Warlord: Artefact
All the Rituals of Ruin only work on your turn. You can't use them in an opponents Hero Phase.
@@Dre0oq Yes and that is why 2 out of 4 are bad/niche to use bc the 6+ ward only on my turn is not going to come up often, only against super bricks of units or against units like Incarnates.
For sure, I see what you mean now, thanks. The case I had in my head was Nurgle Chaos Warriors which is like the definition of super brick lol. I do like having the battleshock trick easily accessible since the Herdstone no longer interacts with bravery/battleshock.
I like your points about the army speed changing. I think it's going to feel different. Now Ambushing is largely our source of speed. I'm glad the guest kept shining a light on the +3" Command Trait.
Great show guys! That second list is just amazing, Matt! Looks like I got myself a new army 🤘
Great episode! Happy 100K! Does anybody have a link to the pdf presentation from Darren? :D
I just came here to ask the same thing, I would greatly appreciate it!
cant wait to see your ogroid theridon. i am currently painting those aswell. i bought them because i really wanted to practice painting flesh, and those models are a deam to practice on, way easier than the namarti thralls i was using before
I really appreciate Vince's stance on unclear rules: if reasonable players can come to differing interpretations, we should demand a FAQ rather than try to intuit the intend.
Coming from 40k, where the rules are much less tight *and* answers to actual FAQs very rare, I think players of that game could benefit from adopting this stance. We've gotten too used to taking responsibility for figuring out how to make the game function rather than hold GW accountable.
Something that was missed about the Morghurite Chaos Spawn: they also have a ranged attack. Which normal Chaos Spawn do not. So that's neat.
Hey Vince, is there any chance we could get a link in the description to a download of the Beast of Chaos PowerPoint? You did your best but it was admittedly hard to see the text :]
I grabbed it randomly from Facebook, it was shared by Darren MC, I don't have a link for it anymore.
I love this book sooo much…it feels like you are just constantly inflicting psychological warfare on your opponent the entire time.
Cant fathom how you mentionned Sigmar orbital bombardment without thinking about space lasers from battletoad gothic!
As per core rules when you shoot, you use any missile profiles on the warscroll, so you don't get around the range on ungor raiders. Might still deserve an FAQ though.
Definitely still needs an FAQ :)
@@VinceVenturella imagine a world where they would proof read their books just one extra time :-) feels like the community always find something pretty stooopid pretty quick.
I was pleasantly surprised to find that my friendly LGS carries your Signature Series ProAcryl paints. Grabbed a box for future hobby endeavors.
Awesome!
@Vince Venturella would you like to know what else is awesome? My friendly LGS can not keep them on the shelf. They have to order more every week since the release.
Shoutout to Matt’s cat!
Vince i do want to point out that the 4+ moonclan rally was declared bad for the game but the 5+ rally that can be stacked with an auto returning models heal that is over the course of the game likely to return more models then the 4+ rally was declared fun and cool. I feel like there is a bit of disconnect there. The IDK have this heal too and it keeps thrall blocks alive on a worse save and without the rally with ease.
I did really like both reviews and am overjoyed to see you hit 100k. Just interested why 4+ rally gets the heat
No, you're totally right. I am generally less wary of 5+ wards, but that can combine badly, you are correct.
Yes, Beasts time!
Curious on your guys take on Bestigors now after the points drop and warscroll change? Good stuff as always real helpful to a new BoC player
Very excited with the points drop.
@@VinceVenturella going to try a 20 block tonight on tts see how they do. Thanks again got me into the game
Here's to a million subs!
Regarding Bestigors, I’m surprised you didn’t talk about the timing for the AoD extra attack. I read it the way that if the Bestigors attack a unit, and that units popps AoD, the Bestigors do not get an extra attack. They only get the extra attack if another BoC units attacked first and the enemy already used AoD. Right?
No, because All Out Defense is declared in response to the unit being activated to fight and picking their target. So AoD would be activated, and then in response, when calculating the attacks, you would get the extra attacks.
But if I pick the targets for my attacks then I have to know how many attacks I have. So you say I pick my Bestigors, pile in, count my attacks, allocate the attacks, then the enemy does AoD, then I go back to allocating more attacks, maybe then to a different unit where my enemy can’t use AoD then? Don’t I have to allocate all my attacks, then the enemy knows what’s coming and then he/she chooses where to AoD?
Congratulations for reaching 100k subscribers! (40k has nothing on you.)
I am very happy that Beasts got such an intersting book. Very few rules and warscrolls that are questionable. (I am mostly sad about the Chimera for losing its charge bonus and having such bad attacks on its heads.) Still, the Beasts have some way to go, since like a third of their units feels significantly (20 points or more) overcosted.
Ungor raiders shoot in range from battlefield edge, because of core rules 13.1.1
The target of a shooting attack must be within a
number of inches of the attacking model equal to
the Range characteristic of the weapon being used
to make the attack
I understand the argument, but the ability doesn't actually list the origin point (it mentions a point, but then never calls it the origin point you measure from). I understand and agree with your argument, but it just doesn't have enough words in the ability to be clear, so people will read it the other way. Hence, FAQ
I read it as you pick a point on the board edge and pick a unit within 12” of that board edge.
A perfectly logical reading, the issue is, they don't say you use that point as the origin, we can infer it, but its unclear and the later text contradicts, as it doesn't say the closest within range, just closest. I agree with you, but we need and FAQ to clear up the other ruling.
Question, can Grashrak's Despoilers restore dead Models in Allherd? They do have the GOR and ALLHERD keywords, so I don't see why you wouldn't be able to. And if that is the case, would that change your opinion on Grashraks boys, since you'll have an 18" platform to use Rituals of Ruin that restores itself after you deal them the mortal wounds, plus they can bodyguard for Grashrak. That way you won't have to dedicate points or resources to other units if you want something to front the Mortal Wounds onto with your Rituals.
Good catch!
Despite my misgivings with Games Workshop and how they do business, I'm still glad to see the AoS community building steam.
Vince's reliability on putting out these episodes each and every week for years cannot be understated. I believe the words I'm looking for are "pillar of the community".
FYI Matt, Dragon Ogor Shaggoth cannot use its warscroll ability to heal after a ritual of ruin while in reserve due to rule 3.1.
Great looking Tome though!
Thanks for the bump on this yeah a friend mentioned the rule to me after stream oh well i haven’t taken shaggoths in lists yet at least due to points
100k woo woo!
I would like to point out that the cockatrice is 10p more expensive than the mindstealer sphiranx. I would have liked both of them be more reasonable in between their current states
Would you recommend BoC as a starter army?
I think now, with this new book, it's an okay starter army. Its a little complicated because of the combo-ish nature, but its nothing too crazy, it's a good learning army that has to play the game to win.
It's fairly easy and cheap to kitbash your own Chaos Spawn, so you can at least test out a Gavespawn list without breaking the bank.
Plus, you really should be making your own Chaos Spawn anyway. The official kit is old, and it's Chaos Spawn. Whatever you make from Green Stuff and spare bits, it won't look worse than what you'd pay $50+ for from GW. And it'll conform to YOUR creative vision.
@@VinceVenturella thank you for the reply.
I'm here to see if I can make a cow level list! Fingers crossed I can and it's the best way to play BoC
THE NUG!!!!! YES! All hail one of the greatest Beastlord ever living.
"this sort of eminence ability"
Didn't know you played Commander Vince.
Oh yes. Very much yes. ;)
Another very strong battletome. Onewould have thought that GW would tone it down since "metawatch" and the votann debacle...But powerful sells. The next books are going to be absolute monsters. It is known that Slaanesh books are either "OP AF" or "nappy bin on fire"....So I'm expecting them to go straight back to the NPE zone....Time will tell :)
I'm expecting trash fire.
Always love nerd tattoos and impressive gun show
Screw Stormcast orbital bombardments I want high flying Kharadton airships bombing from off the board!
Can someone meow back at this cat please? >
👍👍
Most of the Stormcast hero’s actually only get 4 attacks :(
Yeah, the combat lords are 5, the middle knights are 4 and the priests are 3. Completely eclipsed by nonsense heroes.
Great episode as always guys! Where can I see more of Matt's Khotek Suneater Gargant kitbash? That thing looks incredible
I believe he shares it on socials.
Cockatrice will probably get nerfed hard. Hope they dont just outright remove the second part of the skill coz that would be stupid. But hitting on 6 is too much.
If they dont use the sledgehammer when Errating it then just put it to 5+ instead. Still a very solid skill but no longer disgustingly so.
Jabber is just a bad joke, and it has always been that way. How this thing still doesnt have 2 dmg on its measely 6 attacks is a question people probably asked since BoC in AoS were a thing. Bestigors, I think are just meh. Even if they dropped to like 160pts. 2W each is a nice improvment but the skills are gimmicky and 2 attacks really dont cut it. Giving them 2 dmg would be the right call but even then at the current price it still would be a tough sale.
Great video! Thank you all for this, I'm very pleased to be a Beasts player.
Our pleasure!
wow so glad spiders in the moon really dont care about cockatrices. or lumineth. mortals for days. anything to hit that does mortals seems ok the rest enjoy
Please also remove summoning from Blades of Khorne!
on ungor shooting: I would think you are using their attack profile which has a 12" range. If you aren't using that profile, you also aren't using the 2 attacks 4+4+ profile. So if you give them some other shooting attack profile with a future warscroll, feel free to go over 12, but their current profile has 12"
I would think so too, but again, it doesn't say that in the ability, it just says closest target - you can shoot them. It doesn't declare the point you pick as the point of origin or say use the range. I agree that is a perfectly logical read, but others will read it otherwise and we have no text to invalidate their interpretation - hence, FAQ.
Comments for the comment god. Hail the algorithm.
No real interest in BOC but several things have me a little worried on power creep coming to aos.
Just a shame the Models are still so poor - much like Seraphon and skaven will be all over them when a relaunch happens
NOOG!
Never trust a Slaanesh player… always use to paying 20% over for everything 😅
The Beasts of Chaos is still one of the most disliked factions in the GW
Why so?