Watching this scene for the first time was totally mind-blowing. Possibly the peak moment of the series for me, so far. Watching Day humiliated and belittled like that out of nowhere threw me for a loop. Of course, it all made sense by the end of the finale.
MY wife and I were watching this and when Demerzel said that, I turned to her and said "If you ever get the chance to use that insult against me - I want you to do it, its awesome."
Lovely moment. Day is so toxic and full of himself, he definitely needed the reminder. It's amazing how in the entire series so far only Dusk has been shown to grasp the full scope of their situation.
That, and his idea of having "changed" was basically just him wanting to fornicate rather than be cloned. Sure, it's a big deal for the genetic dynasty, but if anything his psychological profile as the current Brother Day was even more unhinged than Season 1's Day's.
Do what you are going to do . . Demerzel said that what Day was doing would kill him . . Without saying that outright. Realizing that Day will die at Terminus, and that she can't stop him from doing what will kill him, she leaves at the climatic moment. To preserve herself and the Cleon line
So much going on under the words. She’s done a calculation, weighed up salvaging the situation on Trantor against saving this man from himself, and made the only logical choice. And having made that decision in the blink of an eye, her whole attitude towards him changes. Her only concern is in ensuring he’s too stunned to prevent her from leaving.
She has a couple of rules to balance, and this is her, in real time, realizing that one takes precedent over the other (as you say, calculating and realising that her other programming means she can't stay).
Demerzel is R Daneel Oliwah and was created by the first humans to live on another planet than earth. At this point in the story he is over 25000 years old.
O for heaven's sake, Just because is not exactly like the book doesn't mean is bad!! just let it go!! and to be honest, I like the series more than the books, there. @@TheTransitmtl
@@TheTransitmtl - No. This version of Demerzel is in absolutely *no* way similar to R. Daneel Olivaw. The very fact that "she" could be reprogrammed to circumvent the Three Laws, something considered impossible without completely redesigning the positronic brain from scratch in the novels, demonstrates that she's not even the same kind of robot. Indeed, in the novels, Daneel couldn't prevent the collapse of the Empire despite having tremendous mentalic powers because the First Law blocked him from using his powers to make major changes to people's minds, as this would constitute "harm" under the First Law. Which is why Daneel/Demerzel in the novels actually aided Hari Seldon rather than continuing to try to prop up the Empire. His contingency plans were the two Foundations and Gaia.
Many iterations of Day have realised this, especially that time Demerzel told Day of what she saw after performing the walk in the desert. He realised at that moment he didn't have a soul and she did. She was better than him in the most profound and important way.
Very difficult book to adapt to TV. but they are doing a good job. The books cover thousands of years and it would be extremely difficult to create empathy with the characters if they changed in each season. very creative the way they resolved this situation these writers deserve the raise
Foundation (Book 1, 2 and 3) didn't really have a story. It was more of a fixup around a specific theme. I think they've adhered to the theme pretty well in the show.
While I might watch this, I'm sad that all the comments I've seen say the same. So books that have been loved by so many people and could capture the attention of them, if you put them on screen, people won't process them properly? This was probably the only chance in my lifetime to see an adaptation of something I love very much and it was over from the start.
The Foundation series of books cover about 5 centuries of timeline. Hari Seldon's plan was to reduce the barbaric age after the fall of the Galactic Empire from a period of several thousand years into a period of only a thousand years.
@@derekwhittom1639 Adhered to the theme? Far from it. A robot uprising where robots killed humans? What happened to the 3 laws of Robotics Using violence to solve problems? A majority of problems that occur in the Foundation Series are resolved by peaceful or mostly peaceful means. Some are even solved by the nature of human psychology.
This was the scene that revealed that Demerzel was actually the one running the empire. Her utterly disrespectful dismissal of Day and her commandments to the guards to prepare to leave were straight up boss moments.
The moment I found out Demerzel was a robot, I KNEW she was manipulating the Cleons. It's a common theme in the robot stories of Asimov that the robots are often far more intelligent than the humans, but because they're hard coded with certain rules against certain kinds of actions, their autonomy is harshly curtailed, meaning they have to act deceptively and manipulatively in order to achieve their desired outcomes, and Demerzel is no different. If you look at her, she's perfectly positioned as the power behind the throne, and because all the Cleons come from the same genetic stock, and she's a large part of their developmental process, she's perfectly positioned to know how they all tick within the baseline parameters; as such, all she has to do is push them subtly to get what she wants. She no doubt created by dynasty for the same reason Seldon created the Foundation: she needed a mechanism to create very predictable outcomes, but Demerzel favored stability above all else, so the Empire stagnated and when crises upon crises arose, the dynasty was too inflexible to address them.
In the books, Cleon is just one person, and not that important... but in the series I think the Cleon story (which is pretty much made up in the series) became very interesting, and is an important lesson about not remaining stagnant... I also like how much detail they go into developing the Cleon 'universe', especially with all the colours, costumes, palaces, the variations between clones, and the sexy maternal Demerzel version of the original robot Daneel.
Demerzel is *nothing* like Daneel! They have nothing in common at all. They're not even really the same kind of robot. That's why Demerzel could be reprogrammed to override the Three Laws, something that was considered impossible without completely redesigning the positronic brain from scratch in the novels.
O for heaven's sake, Just because is not exactly like the book doesn't mean is bad!! just let it go!! and to be honest, I like the series more than the books, there.@@daniels7907
I couldn't get into it. The people talk in cryptic ways, believe things that don't make sense and are overall hardly relatable. The worldbuilding seems unlikely, contrived.
This moment threw me into another dimension with how good of a twist this very moment was. Honestly the writing for this show is beyond exceptional and I don't think I will find another show like this!
This was great. Absolute mugging off (very satisfying because let’s face it he’s an absolute gimp). Interesting she says “I had to leave a lot in your formative years”…perhaps something to do with Dusk (his memories/using another clone etc)…? Great episode. I’m glad madam robot is getting her time. She was the most interesting character from the start pretty much, certainly in this season. 🎉
@@Fl0yt That is technically incorrect. She is a robot designed to imitate people, aka an android. What you said would be like saying: "that is a dog, not a mammal".
I only started box setting Foundation on Sunday and what a phenomenal series!! I'm gonna have to watch it all again so much stuff i missed by boxing it but the story and plots in plots and Lee Pace have all got me addicted and who doesn't love Hari??
I'm NGL, I LOVE seeing Day get read for filth, which happens multiple times during the series. Lee always responds in so satisfying a way that I just laugh and get my life. This scene and the scene with Halima reading him are two of my favorite scenes.
So Dusk's (then Day) rule was so bad that Demerzel had to leave the young Day then Dawn, alone for too much of his formative years and is therefore didn't have the time to learn to be a proper Cleon clone as guided by Demerzel. She's been holding it together for so long I think in that moment she relalised Empire is over and she can now be free to move onto her own plans and not be ruled by the genetic dynasty.
Which makes you wonder how Cleon XVI (current Dusk) was raised to be such an ineffectual emperor that it even affected the rearing of Cleon XVII (current Day).
For me, Demerzel is actually the bad guy of the whole story. Cleon XVI seems to be a decent man, who likely didn't have the stomach to rule with an iron fist, so Demerzel did it in his stead. Cleon XVII may be unhinged, but he very likely is so due to her rearing, not in spite of it. Plus, the brain damage he suffered during the assassination attempt is also her doing, so blaming him that he "grew up with uncertainty in mind and morals" is just another example of her self-serving lies - as his behavior has changed AFTER the attack of the Blind Angels, who were hired by her. She is a passionate manipulator. She was intimate with him to better control him, and went so far as to orchestrate an attempt on his life, just so he would alter his plans to suit her. She has caused him a great deal of misery, in this scene abandons him when he could really use a good advisor to soothe his quite understandable anger, and still has the gall to speak as if she had the moral high ground. All in all, in my opinion Cleon I and all his descendants (whether natural ones or his clones) would have been much better off, had he not found her in the secret chamber, had not put her back together and freed her. That was a big mistake on his part.
@@blackrahk2037 In the last episode she failed, because she woke the three exponens to replace the lost cleons eventually, and use the prime radiant to strengthen the empire, her programming is too strong
@@ciarandwynvil273 she's the reason why he created the clone dynasty in the first place, he wants to trap her as long as possible because he doesn't want her to be more free than he is, and he's too love her to leave her in the secret chamber
I honestly hope the writers don't alter Demerzel's directive at all, or 'redeem' her. I hope they keep her locked in her programming, constantly fighting against her directive, manipulating things from the background. Harry Seldon seems to understand what is happening, hence why he spoke directly to Demerzel, ignoring Cleon, when they entered the vault, and giving her the Prime Radiant. If you think about it, Demerzel's directive is to protect the Genetic Dynasty, and so Harry provides her with the tools to allow for it to persist as long as possible, while also allowing for the inevitable - but planned - collapse of the Empire. Obviously, it's just speculation while I wait for the 3rd season.
Perhaps release her just before het death, the way she talked with cleon in season 1 feels like it something she should experience, she is a unwilling player in all of this but she isn't so innocent that she shouldn't be punished
there were times in both season where I questioned why I was watching this show....but it always came around and it was really good. The cast is incredible and delivers and is 100% the main reason to watch. Everyone does a great job. The most interesting characters are Demerzel and the Cleons....I couldn't care less for the Foundation side to be honest, they aren't interesting.
When Day thinks he has used Demerzel as his toy, but Demerzel explains how he is in fact her failed toy. Can't wait for S3 and we'll get to see unhinged Demerzel.
It just occurred to me that since Salvor’s time is earlier than Terminus, could the mentalics have sorted out their issues with Tellem’s death and rallied around Gaal and the Invictus being smashed into Terminus is an illusion created by the mentalics? Salvor could use the radiant to communicate with the Vault and Hari projects himself to the Invictus bridge, explain the illusion and have them charge up a massive attack on the Shining Destiny causing massive damage that results in Cleon 17’s death. The Spacer’s might also use this time to revolt and jump Empire’s fleets to remote regions and strand them or jump them into suns destroying them and chaos ensues.
Hari's true foundation is Demerzel. Everything that transpired is just a preparation and lesson for demerzel to rebuild mankind were people like cleon would not exist. its like teaching an AI through experiences on how to be the perfect steward for future humanity.
@@NeilsonBuntowa I guess this series is adapting more than just the main Foundation books, its doing "Foundation and Earth" as well, setting up Demrezel as the one of the robots that rebuild the galactic empire.
She was the real.power. Somehow, she lost her influence over the three rules when the explosion happened when Hober interrupted the executions. She will return to Trantor and set a coup into motion. Dusk will just want to retire in peace. She will make Dawn the new leader. She will either imprison Day or kill him. These are my guesses.
She can’t do a coup. Her programming won’t allow her. She also wouldn’t need to since they are kinda puppet emperors. She can kill them and just pull more clones out of the tanks. So a coup really would be against her rather than by her. Really her programming is the root of all the problems. She is kinda forced to protect the genetic dynasty by what the first Cleon coded her with
I always knew she was the real power. In the background, observing, operating the Empire through sheer logic, reason, and self preservation in mind. She just needed the one that everyone is forced to listen to.
I felt so sorry for Cleon here. For reasons passing understanding, he had feelings for Demerzel. And here she goes telling him she never felt that way about him, just discarding him like damaged goods. She's just decided that he no longer serves her well and has just dropped him like a hot potato. Granted, this Day has done more bad things than his predecessors, but it seems to me that it's her who brings his worst to the surface, giving him reasons to be paranoid and angry. She unleashes his demons, only to later tell him to just do his thing because he's beyond redemption. But then, I'm not surprised, the lady robot is quite a hipocrite.
I think that this gets into issues of nurture over nature. How much of a person's personality is inherited in their genes and how much is taught? Then I also wonder if sometimes an emotional matrix was being copied onto these clones from the first Cleon - not just the genes. I am of the opinion that Demerzel is the one who has attempted to change not only their genes but is the one who edits their memories attempting to make them better people. But let's be honest, not many spoiled imperial children rise to become great leaders. During the time of Rome I can think of only one emperor who was without the usual imperial superiority complex (Marcus Aurelius). So is it Demerzel's fault that they are who they are? Remember that Demerzel can literally live forever, so to see her have as much empathy towards humans as she does is remarkable - given how many failed generations of Cleons she has seen pass before her eyes.
@@brianh9358 Thanks for replying to my comment. I enjoyed the show quite a lot, and I like chatting about it. You do pose an interesting question/speculation regarding the imprint of an emotional matrix. If Demerzel has been doing that, then she has usurped even more power over the clones than I thought and than she ever should have wielded. Plus, she has killed the ones who were absolutely innocent of any notable wrongdoing, so I find it hard to believe that her actions are steered toward the betterment of the dynasty. In sooth, thinking about the assassination attempt, I believe more and more than the neurotoxin that got into Cleon's veins did damage his brain and triggered a madness (since none of the earlier Cleons could be accused of acting in purely evil ways, and even his Dusk and Dawn specifically said that the changes in his behavior started after the attack). If that is the case, the instigator of the assault, Demerzel, bears quite a bit of responsibility for the way he ended up to be. I mean, the earlier Cleons were flawed men, no doubt about that, but none of them had such psychopathic tendencies as Cleon XVII showed just prior to his death. With the exception of Cleon XIII, they haven't exactly been the greatest of leaders, I grant you that. But neither were the folks on the other side, their opponents. People like Hari, for example, who has lied, manipulated his followers, sacrificed his son (and wife and their unborn baby) to some mathematical model, a belief he held dearer than he held his closest ones... We don't even know if the model is in fact accurate, just that a lot of people are willing to martyr themselves for its sake. On the whole, Cleons we have so far seen weren't angels, but neither were they the worst that the humanity ever produced. They were just men with a lot of power and were trying to save humankind in the way they thought to be effective. They didn't need a robot to puppeteer them about, they needed an adviser who truly had their best interests at heart. But Demerzel wasn't that kind of the person. I know that a lot of people find her amazing. I don't, and I think that Cleon XIII should have had her executed for murdering his son. Alas, I believe that she killed him too, and thus got away with her deed. This is indeed just a speculation, but considering the punishment for Azura for breaking Dawn's heart and nearly killing him, I don't think he would let go the actual murder unpunished. I am uncertain if she truly is empathetic toward humans in general, and the clones in particular. It rather seems to me that much of her emotional anguish stems from the fact that she is, to a considerable extent, enslaved by her program (and yes, Cleon I made a huge mistake by taking away her free will. It was a wrongdoing for which he is fully responsible) and she laments the fact. She kills anyone who stands in HER way, and it has nothing to do with the well-being of the empire or the dynasty. This pattern in her conduct is pretty much at odds with feeling genuine compassion. I admit that she is capable of anguish and emotional turmoil and that her story is tragic. I just don't see her as a good person at all. Also, let's not forget that her last victim, Cleon XVI, actually marked her a traitor. All his words in that moment, all that tenderness and cupping her face was just a means to pass his last message/ warning to his grandson. He knew that he himself was going to die by her hand, and did his best to prevent that kind of fate for Dawn. THAT was an act of love and compassion, showing him as a much better person than Demerzel would ever become. Maybe Cleon XVI failed as an emperor, but he sure didn't fail as a grandfather. But that's just my personal opinion :) I know that Demerzel has many admirers, and that's perfectly fine. I just happen to be firmly on team Cleons :)
This isn't a scene about Day. It about R. Daneel Olivaw, the shepherd of humankind, realizing it failed. Then it takes the next logical course, which has nothing to do with Day.
what i wonder is were shes being called to, because she basically made an enemy of Day here, so i wouldnt be surprised if she was about to escape to never return or something like that. Or maybe she will just delete Days memories or something
My thinking was that back on the planet, Seldon did something with the rubics cube to alter her programming and allow her to harm empire. So she's leaving to set plans in motion now that she can hurt them. She didn't kill him here because he's so insignificant.
my guess is that the cube she got is a fake one, that shows what seldom ones her to now, the goal of the plan is not just killing the empire but creating a better one in it's place, so he needs to destroy it in a way that doesn't create a million pety dictators that the foundation needs to beat one by one, it needs to collapse in a way that the foundation can easely put back together again and create a beter "empire" from
For anyone who read the full Foundation series, the reveal that the robot was running everything was not a huge surprise but it was a welcome one. It shows hte writers aren't completely disregarding the original material at least.
What I don't understand is, she saw the destruction of terminus, yet somehow she managed to leave that ship right before the fleet got destroyed, ther's just a little time when day debating the general, less than a minute I guess
story is completely changed for the tv viewers, i am so much interested in mule its the peak of foundation, they should not have disclosed mule they did wrong thing, he was the mystery in foundation series
well it's technically true we all start out as microscopic sperm grow into 50 trillion cells... then get reduced back to basic molecules we may not (yet) travel the entire universe but all human beings certainly travel between the microscopic and macroscopic then back LOL
She isn't, in fact it is shown several times that she has feelings, but is forced to obey empire, i think of all the people there are she hates empire the most, because of the atrocities she is ordered to do by him.
Calling him a sperm lead by its waving flagellum makes no sense with him and his line being clones. It would’ve been more accurate to call him a cloned cell that multiplied its was out of a petri dish or something like that.
A sperm has no consciousness and is propelled forward only by a blind need to reproduce, which is what she saw in this particular Cleon. Also a sperm *led* by its flagellum is going backwards, so she’s also saying he’s not even any good at doing that. It’s a pretty calculated insult.
I understand that she raised them, so they think of her with some respect but realistically, one of them would have gotten pissed off and had her destroyed over the course of a 100 years. Because, misogyny.
You know, while she can only SAY that to Day due to his failings to be a functioning part of empire, what she says to Day might be the only bit of truth we ever hear out of her.But probably not meant for Day. Because she has no reason to lie to a man who she's sentenced to death, but i;m doubting he's the only monkey she thinks lacks the barest semblance of logic or reasoning,
@@daniels7907 hey man I didnt write the show and know a lot of the show diverges.....but still Apple did way better with scifi than Disney ever will and lets not even mention that garbage Amazon tried with their rings abomination
Watching this scene for the first time was totally mind-blowing. Possibly the peak moment of the series for me, so far. Watching Day humiliated and belittled like that out of nowhere threw me for a loop.
Of course, it all made sense by the end of the finale.
MY wife and I were watching this and when Demerzel said that, I turned to her and said "If you ever get the chance to use that insult against me - I want you to do it, its awesome."
I think Dermerzel got the memo from the director to go off-screen and await next season.
Sorry. NONE of what happens in the AppleFagTV version is in the books. Try reading. You won't be as stupid that way.
Lovely moment. Day is so toxic and full of himself, he definitely needed the reminder. It's amazing how in the entire series so far only Dusk has been shown to grasp the full scope of their situation.
Sorry. NONE of what happens in the AppleFagTV version is in the books. Try reading. You won't be as stupid that way.
That was cold ... She basically told him that he is her puppet! 😂😂😂
all of them are, a puppeter who is the puppet of a deadman
That, and his idea of having "changed" was basically just him wanting to fornicate rather than be cloned. Sure, it's a big deal for the genetic dynasty, but if anything his psychological profile as the current Brother Day was even more unhinged than Season 1's Day's.
Do what you are going to do . . Demerzel said that what Day was doing would kill him . . Without saying that outright. Realizing that Day will die at Terminus, and that she can't stop him from doing what will kill him, she leaves at the climatic moment. To preserve herself and the Cleon line
@@jamesgraham7982 ... I think it was random luck that she left ... She could have easily been killed at Terminus.
A new way to tell someone your trash
So much going on under the words. She’s done a calculation, weighed up salvaging the situation on Trantor against saving this man from himself, and made the only logical choice. And having made that decision in the blink of an eye, her whole attitude towards him changes. Her only concern is in ensuring he’s too stunned to prevent her from leaving.
It is like when you stop loving somebody and suddenly don't see all their habits/vices in a good light, anymore...
She has a couple of rules to balance, and this is her, in real time, realizing that one takes precedent over the other (as you say, calculating and realising that her other programming means she can't stay).
Sorry. NONE of what happens in the AppleFagTV version is in the books. Try reading. You won't be as stupid that way.
I wonder if Day realized here that he's nothing and Demerzel is the real Empire.
Demerzel is R Daneel Oliwah and was created by the first humans to live on another planet than earth. At this point in the story he is over 25000 years old.
O for heaven's sake, Just because is not exactly like the book doesn't mean is bad!! just let it go!! and to be honest, I like the series more than the books, there. @@TheTransitmtl
@@TheTransitmtlExactly. I’m surprised that so many who have read Asimov are confused by this. Perhaps they have not read enough of Asimov’s books.
@@TheTransitmtl - No. This version of Demerzel is in absolutely *no* way similar to R. Daneel Olivaw. The very fact that "she" could be reprogrammed to circumvent the Three Laws, something considered impossible without completely redesigning the positronic brain from scratch in the novels, demonstrates that she's not even the same kind of robot. Indeed, in the novels, Daneel couldn't prevent the collapse of the Empire despite having tremendous mentalic powers because the First Law blocked him from using his powers to make major changes to people's minds, as this would constitute "harm" under the First Law. Which is why Daneel/Demerzel in the novels actually aided Hari Seldon rather than continuing to try to prop up the Empire. His contingency plans were the two Foundations and Gaia.
Many iterations of Day have realised this, especially that time Demerzel told Day of what she saw after performing the walk in the desert. He realised at that moment he didn't have a soul and she did. She was better than him in the most profound and important way.
I absolutely lost it when she called him a sperm. Hilarious.
Sorry. NONE of what happens in the AppleFagTV version is in the books. Try reading. You won't be as stupid that way.
Very difficult book to adapt to TV. but they are doing a good job. The books cover thousands of years and it would be extremely difficult to create empathy with the characters if they changed in each season. very creative the way they resolved this situation these writers deserve the raise
Foundation (Book 1, 2 and 3) didn't really have a story. It was more of a fixup around a specific theme. I think they've adhered to the theme pretty well in the show.
While I might watch this, I'm sad that all the comments I've seen say the same. So books that have been loved by so many people and could capture the attention of them, if you put them on screen, people won't process them properly? This was probably the only chance in my lifetime to see an adaptation of something I love very much and it was over from the start.
The Foundation series of books cover about 5 centuries of timeline. Hari Seldon's plan was to reduce the barbaric age after the fall of the Galactic Empire from a period of several thousand years into a period of only a thousand years.
@@derekwhittom1639 Adhered to the theme? Far from it.
A robot uprising where robots killed humans? What happened to the 3 laws of Robotics
Using violence to solve problems? A majority of problems that occur in the Foundation Series are resolved by peaceful or mostly peaceful means. Some are even solved by the nature of human psychology.
Why couldn't we have got this quality of book to screen for that LotR Amazon show. Here by known as the show that shan't be named.😅
This was the scene that revealed that Demerzel was actually the one running the empire. Her utterly disrespectful dismissal of Day and her commandments to the guards to prepare to leave were straight up boss moments.
she'd not be if she could, but she's also pissed off by having to deal with apes the entire time.
The moment I found out Demerzel was a robot, I KNEW she was manipulating the Cleons. It's a common theme in the robot stories of Asimov that the robots are often far more intelligent than the humans, but because they're hard coded with certain rules against certain kinds of actions, their autonomy is harshly curtailed, meaning they have to act deceptively and manipulatively in order to achieve their desired outcomes, and Demerzel is no different.
If you look at her, she's perfectly positioned as the power behind the throne, and because all the Cleons come from the same genetic stock, and she's a large part of their developmental process, she's perfectly positioned to know how they all tick within the baseline parameters; as such, all she has to do is push them subtly to get what she wants. She no doubt created by dynasty for the same reason Seldon created the Foundation: she needed a mechanism to create very predictable outcomes, but Demerzel favored stability above all else, so the Empire stagnated and when crises upon crises arose, the dynasty was too inflexible to address them.
Sorry. NONE of what happens in the AppleFagTV version is in the books. Try reading. You won't be as stupid that way.
In the books, Cleon is just one person, and not that important... but in the series I think the Cleon story (which is pretty much made up in the series) became very interesting, and is an important lesson about not remaining stagnant... I also like how much detail they go into developing the Cleon 'universe', especially with all the colours, costumes, palaces, the variations between clones, and the sexy maternal Demerzel version of the original robot Daneel.
I agree, hence why I don not understand why some people are so mad over this show. It has been great!
@@RetroDaddyPH Because they decided to change the character so much that now her arc is going to be a shallow redemption story
Demerzel is *nothing* like Daneel! They have nothing in common at all. They're not even really the same kind of robot. That's why Demerzel could be reprogrammed to override the Three Laws, something that was considered impossible without completely redesigning the positronic brain from scratch in the novels.
O for heaven's sake, Just because is not exactly like the book doesn't mean is bad!! just let it go!! and to be honest, I like the series more than the books, there.@@daniels7907
@@daniels7907Daneel implemented the zero (st) law long before at times, when the conflict earth vs spacers were shifting towards earthlings .
what an absolutely amazing series, i'm glad it's getting some more recognition after season 2 but i still think it's underrated...
I couldn't get into it. The people talk in cryptic ways, believe things that don't make sense and are overall hardly relatable. The worldbuilding seems unlikely, contrived.
Just finished season 2. I was contemplating on ditching the show and then the last 6 or 7 episodes were just perfect. Can’t wait for season 3
@@cyrusol "The people talk in cryptic ways" sounds like a you-problem.
Sorry. NONE of what happens in the AppleFagTV version is in the books. Try reading. You won't be as stupid that way.
I dated a girl like her. She said the meanest things in the nicest way.
you must've been like day- no idea why
Did she keep her arms in the same position too?
Did you saw when her head get sliced and diced?
A 20,000 year old robot?
@@biomimetica Those are just the worst, aren’t they?
The empire half of Foundation story line was/is terrific.
This moment threw me into another dimension with how good of a twist this very moment was. Honestly the writing for this show is beyond exceptional and I don't think I will find another show like this!
Sorry. NONE of what happens in the AppleFagTV version is in the books. Try reading. You won't be as stupid that way.
This was great. Absolute mugging off (very satisfying because let’s face it he’s an absolute gimp). Interesting she says “I had to leave a lot in your formative years”…perhaps something to do with Dusk (his memories/using another clone etc)…? Great episode. I’m glad madam robot is getting her time. She was the most interesting character from the start pretty much, certainly in this season. 🎉
Technically she is Android not a robot. Robots are not made/designed to imitate people, nor be mistaken for them, (Like C3P0 or chapie/elysium)
@@Fl0yt That is technically incorrect. She is a robot designed to imitate people, aka an android. What you said would be like saying: "that is a dog, not a mammal".
I only started box setting Foundation on Sunday and what a phenomenal series!! I'm gonna have to watch it all again so much stuff i missed by boxing it but the story and plots in plots and Lee Pace have all got me addicted and who doesn't love Hari??
I'm NGL, I LOVE seeing Day get read for filth, which happens multiple times during the series. Lee always responds in so satisfying a way that I just laugh and get my life. This scene and the scene with Halima reading him are two of my favorite scenes.
Irony of this scene is that brother Dusk actually saved Demerzel in here by entering secret chamber, in efect killing himself.
She tore his ass upppppppppp
So Dusk's (then Day) rule was so bad that Demerzel had to leave the young Day then Dawn, alone for too much of his formative years and is therefore didn't have the time to learn to be a proper Cleon clone as guided by Demerzel. She's been holding it together for so long I think in that moment she relalised Empire is over and she can now be free to move onto her own plans and not be ruled by the genetic dynasty.
Which makes you wonder how Cleon XVI (current Dusk) was raised to be such an ineffectual emperor that it even affected the rearing of Cleon XVII (current Day).
@@svyatoslavrurikovich8831I think she is doing it on purpose to free herself within the parameters of her programing...
For me, Demerzel is actually the bad guy of the whole story. Cleon XVI seems to be a decent man, who likely didn't have the stomach to rule with an iron fist, so Demerzel did it in his stead. Cleon XVII may be unhinged, but he very likely is so due to her rearing, not in spite of it. Plus, the brain damage he suffered during the assassination attempt is also her doing, so blaming him that he "grew up with uncertainty in mind and morals" is just another example of her self-serving lies - as his behavior has changed AFTER the attack of the Blind Angels, who were hired by her. She is a passionate manipulator. She was intimate with him to better control him, and went so far as to orchestrate an attempt on his life, just so he would alter his plans to suit her. She has caused him a great deal of misery, in this scene abandons him when he could really use a good advisor to soothe his quite understandable anger, and still has the gall to speak as if she had the moral high ground.
All in all, in my opinion Cleon I and all his descendants (whether natural ones or his clones) would have been much better off, had he not found her in the secret chamber, had not put her back together and freed her. That was a big mistake on his part.
@@blackrahk2037 In the last episode she failed, because she woke the three exponens to replace the lost cleons eventually, and use the prime radiant to strengthen the empire, her programming is too strong
@@ciarandwynvil273 she's the reason why he created the clone dynasty in the first place, he wants to trap her as long as possible because he doesn't want her to be more free than he is, and he's too love her to leave her in the secret chamber
What not to love about this scene, perfection !
She ate him up
I honestly hope the writers don't alter Demerzel's directive at all, or 'redeem' her. I hope they keep her locked in her programming, constantly fighting against her directive, manipulating things from the background. Harry Seldon seems to understand what is happening, hence why he spoke directly to Demerzel, ignoring Cleon, when they entered the vault, and giving her the Prime Radiant. If you think about it, Demerzel's directive is to protect the Genetic Dynasty, and so Harry provides her with the tools to allow for it to persist as long as possible, while also allowing for the inevitable - but planned - collapse of the Empire. Obviously, it's just speculation while I wait for the 3rd season.
Perhaps release her just before het death, the way she talked with cleon in season 1 feels like it something she should experience, she is a unwilling player in all of this but she isn't so innocent that she shouldn't be punished
Lady Duracell is the GOAT
Sorry. NONE of what happens in the AppleFagTV version is in the books. Try reading. You won't be as stupid that way.
LOL They should have made her a red head, we could have called her copper top.
there were times in both season where I questioned why I was watching this show....but it always came around and it was really good. The cast is incredible and delivers and is 100% the main reason to watch. Everyone does a great job. The most interesting characters are Demerzel and the Cleons....I couldn't care less for the Foundation side to be honest, they aren't interesting.
The Foundation are not interesting ... yet. They will get a lot more interesting.
Emotional Damage!!
She tore his lungs out hahahaha
Absolutely destroyed him...
When Day thinks he has used Demerzel as his toy, but Demerzel explains how he is in fact her failed toy. Can't wait for S3 and we'll get to see unhinged Demerzel.
You are NOT him... Every fiber of him broke like egg shells against iron
Day is dead. Dermelzer made it so.
The bad parent achieved a bad son, and now they stop caring.
Demerzel is the real villain in this series
More a victmin of circustancies than a villain.
Can we truly call her a villain though? She's just following her programming.
That dude has a god/alien type body
I loved it!!! I love how I hate and love all characters it’s amazing❤😂
Sorry. NONE of what happens in the AppleFagTV version is in the books. Try reading. You won't be as stupid that way.
"Bring my shuttle".
It just occurred to me that since Salvor’s time is earlier than Terminus, could the mentalics have sorted out their issues with Tellem’s death and rallied around Gaal and the Invictus being smashed into Terminus is an illusion created by the mentalics?
Salvor could use the radiant to communicate with the Vault and Hari projects himself to the Invictus bridge, explain the illusion and have them charge up a massive attack on the Shining Destiny causing massive damage that results in Cleon 17’s death.
The Spacer’s might also use this time to revolt and jump Empire’s fleets to remote regions and strand them or jump them into suns destroying them and chaos ensues.
The co founder said their dead
Only issue is we did Witness Polly's Death, no point projecting that for anybody
Hari's true foundation is Demerzel. Everything that transpired is just a preparation and lesson for demerzel to rebuild mankind were people like cleon would not exist. its like teaching an AI through experiences on how to be the perfect steward for future humanity.
@@NeilsonBuntowa 15000 years of AI training
@@NeilsonBuntowa I guess this series is adapting more than just the main Foundation books, its doing "Foundation and Earth" as well, setting up Demrezel as the one of the robots that rebuild the galactic empire.
She was the real.power. Somehow, she lost her influence over the three rules when the explosion happened when Hober interrupted the executions. She will return to Trantor and set a coup into motion. Dusk will just want to retire in peace. She will make Dawn the new leader. She will either imprison Day or kill him. These are my guesses.
Read the book lol
@@hip-hopworldwide1648 then there would be no surprise and anticipation.
She can’t do a coup. Her programming won’t allow her. She also wouldn’t need to since they are kinda puppet emperors. She can kill them and just pull more clones out of the tanks. So a coup really would be against her rather than by her. Really her programming is the root of all the problems. She is kinda forced to protect the genetic dynasty by what the first Cleon coded her with
@@hip-hopworldwide1648 Seeing as the genetic dynasty isn't in the book...
I always knew she was the real power. In the background, observing, operating the Empire through sheer logic, reason, and self preservation in mind. She just needed the one that everyone is forced to listen to.
I felt so sorry for Cleon here. For reasons passing understanding, he had feelings for Demerzel. And here she goes telling him she never felt that way about him, just discarding him like damaged goods. She's just decided that he no longer serves her well and has just dropped him like a hot potato. Granted, this Day has done more bad things than his predecessors, but it seems to me that it's her who brings his worst to the surface, giving him reasons to be paranoid and angry. She unleashes his demons, only to later tell him to just do his thing because he's beyond redemption. But then, I'm not surprised, the lady robot is quite a hipocrite.
I think that this gets into issues of nurture over nature. How much of a person's personality is inherited in their genes and how much is taught? Then I also wonder if sometimes an emotional matrix was being copied onto these clones from the first Cleon - not just the genes. I am of the opinion that Demerzel is the one who has attempted to change not only their genes but is the one who edits their memories attempting to make them better people. But let's be honest, not many spoiled imperial children rise to become great leaders. During the time of Rome I can think of only one emperor who was without the usual imperial superiority complex (Marcus Aurelius). So is it Demerzel's fault that they are who they are? Remember that Demerzel can literally live forever, so to see her have as much empathy towards humans as she does is remarkable - given how many failed generations of Cleons she has seen pass before her eyes.
@@brianh9358 Thanks for replying to my comment. I enjoyed the show quite a lot, and I like chatting about it.
You do pose an interesting question/speculation regarding the imprint of an emotional matrix. If Demerzel has been doing that, then she has usurped even more power over the clones than I thought and than she ever should have wielded. Plus, she has killed the ones who were absolutely innocent of any notable wrongdoing, so I find it hard to believe that her actions are steered toward the betterment of the dynasty.
In sooth, thinking about the assassination attempt, I believe more and more than the neurotoxin that got into Cleon's veins did damage his brain and triggered a madness (since none of the earlier Cleons could be accused of acting in purely evil ways, and even his Dusk and Dawn specifically said that the changes in his behavior started after the attack). If that is the case, the instigator of the assault, Demerzel, bears quite a bit of responsibility for the way he ended up to be. I mean, the earlier Cleons were flawed men, no doubt about that, but none of them had such psychopathic tendencies as Cleon XVII showed just prior to his death.
With the exception of Cleon XIII, they haven't exactly been the greatest of leaders, I grant you that. But neither were the folks on the other side, their opponents. People like Hari, for example, who has lied, manipulated his followers, sacrificed his son (and wife and their unborn baby) to some mathematical model, a belief he held dearer than he held his closest ones... We don't even know if the model is in fact accurate, just that a lot of people are willing to martyr themselves for its sake.
On the whole, Cleons we have so far seen weren't angels, but neither were they the worst that the humanity ever produced. They were just men with a lot of power and were trying to save humankind in the way they thought to be effective. They didn't need a robot to puppeteer them about, they needed an adviser who truly had their best interests at heart. But Demerzel wasn't that kind of the person. I know that a lot of people find her amazing. I don't, and I think that Cleon XIII should have had her executed for murdering his son. Alas, I believe that she killed him too, and thus got away with her deed. This is indeed just a speculation, but considering the punishment for Azura for breaking Dawn's heart and nearly killing him, I don't think he would let go the actual murder unpunished.
I am uncertain if she truly is empathetic toward humans in general, and the clones in particular. It rather seems to me that much of her emotional anguish stems from the fact that she is, to a considerable extent, enslaved by her program (and yes, Cleon I made a huge mistake by taking away her free will. It was a wrongdoing for which he is fully responsible) and she laments the fact. She kills anyone who stands in HER way, and it has nothing to do with the well-being of the empire or the dynasty. This pattern in her conduct is pretty much at odds with feeling genuine compassion. I admit that she is capable of anguish and emotional turmoil and that her story is tragic. I just don't see her as a good person at all.
Also, let's not forget that her last victim, Cleon XVI, actually marked her a traitor. All his words in that moment, all that tenderness and cupping her face was just a means to pass his last message/ warning to his grandson. He knew that he himself was going to die by her hand, and did his best to prevent that kind of fate for Dawn. THAT was an act of love and compassion, showing him as a much better person than Demerzel would ever become. Maybe Cleon XVI failed as an emperor, but he sure didn't fail as a grandfather.
But that's just my personal opinion :) I know that Demerzel has many admirers, and that's perfectly fine. I just happen to be firmly on team Cleons :)
This isn't a scene about Day. It about R. Daneel Olivaw, the shepherd of humankind, realizing it failed. Then it takes the next logical course, which has nothing to do with Day.
We need a book R. Daniel as a second character
what i wonder is were shes being called to, because she basically made an enemy of Day here, so i wouldnt be surprised if she was about to escape to never return or something like that. Or maybe she will just delete Days memories or something
She says she is heading for Trantor and there is clip from next weeks episode proving she goes to see dusk.
She may delete Day.
@@jossangeles4011 there's alredy 2 days ready with memory backup and dawn i
Spoiler: she didn’t even need to kill him. He died like minutes after this scene.
Her yeeting herself outta the entire system prematurely to tend to Dusk is the only reason she's not destroyed with the rest of the fleet. @@yucol5661
My thinking was that back on the planet, Seldon did something with the rubics cube to alter her programming and allow her to harm empire. So she's leaving to set plans in motion now that she can hurt them. She didn't kill him here because he's so insignificant.
my guess is that the cube she got is a fake one, that shows what seldom ones her to now, the goal of the plan is not just killing the empire but creating a better one in it's place, so he needs to destroy it in a way that doesn't create a million pety dictators that the foundation needs to beat one by one, it needs to collapse in a way that the foundation can easely put back together again and create a beter "empire" from
Maybe she got some kind of signal that her 'prison' had been accessed?
Confirmed in episode 10.
Brutal. It's over for empirecel.
For anyone who read the full Foundation series, the reveal that the robot was running everything was not a huge surprise but it was a welcome one. It shows hte writers aren't completely disregarding the original material at least.
The moment she left I knew he was going to die
Daaaamn Dermazal tell him how you really feel😂😂😂
What I don't understand is, she saw the destruction of terminus, yet somehow she managed to leave that ship right before the fleet got destroyed, ther's just a little time when day debating the general, less than a minute I guess
Can't wait for season three
😂 friendzoned
Motherzoned, Sisterzoned, Decantedzoned :(((((((((
robozoned
Demerzel owned Day in this scene
Day did not die being thrown out of the air lock. Day was slaughtered in that hallway
story is completely changed for the tv viewers, i am so much interested in mule its the peak of foundation, they should not have disclosed mule they did wrong thing, he was the mystery in foundation series
I had her figured out from like the third episode.
Ronan the Accuser after GOTG.
She read him for filth in less than one and a half minutes.
Change volume on your videos. I cant hear them without blasting my + button.
Your + button deserves a blasting
Well...That's one way of whittling a man down......😂😂😂
Ok, thats funny...the empire is a sperm.
well it's technically true
we all start out as microscopic sperm
grow into 50 trillion cells...
then get reduced back to basic molecules
we may not (yet) travel the entire universe
but all human beings certainly travel between the microscopic and macroscopic then back LOL
This woman is cold as ice hahahahha
Well, she is an android.
She isn't, in fact it is shown several times that she has feelings, but is forced to obey empire, i think of all the people there are she hates empire the most, because of the atrocities she is ordered to do by him.
@@danielroder830 was that before or after she brutally killed brother dawn last season and brutally killed both Rue and Dusk this season?
@@JH-mo7xm Much before,because the first cleon 600 years before insert in her neck the chip of obedience to empire.
i knew it from the beggining
🥶
Calling him a sperm lead by its waving flagellum makes no sense with him and his line being clones. It would’ve been more accurate to call him a cloned cell that multiplied its was out of a petri dish or something like that.
A sperm has no consciousness and is propelled forward only by a blind need to reproduce, which is what she saw in this particular Cleon.
Also a sperm *led* by its flagellum is going backwards, so she’s also saying he’s not even any good at doing that. It’s a pretty calculated insult.
I understand that she raised them, so they think of her with some respect but realistically, one of them would have gotten pissed off and had her destroyed over the course of a 100 years. Because, misogyny.
You know, while she can only SAY that to Day due to his failings to be a functioning part of empire, what she says to Day might be the only bit of truth we ever hear out of her.But probably not meant for Day. Because she has no reason to lie to a man who she's sentenced to death, but i;m doubting he's the only monkey she thinks lacks the barest semblance of logic or reasoning,
And with that moment she made all Cleons look like idiots
I knew right here that day was gonna die. I don't know how i knew but i knew he won't get back to tranktor
Damn, to be called a sperm led by his flagellum, ouch!
#EmotionalDamage
This show could have been produced without even being called "Foundation", being that it's so dissimilar from the original source material.
Demerzel is the real power behind the throne. 😂
She is the throne.
If youve read the books youll realize who demerzel really is and what is really going on.
If you've read the books you realize that this Demerzel cannot be who (s)he is really supposed to be.
@@daniels7907 hey man I didnt write the show and know a lot of the show diverges.....but still Apple did way better with scifi than Disney ever will and lets not even mention that garbage Amazon tried with their rings abomination
😂 i never like do wrong guess what
outer reflects the inner, the human being who creates demerzel is really a bad person
I wish it was closer to the source material, they have put too many woke elements into it for my taste.
I so wanted the books to come alive but this show is JUST BORING! Even the space battles are like BLAH!
Demerzel - R Daneel Olivaw - was male. Another reason not to watch a moment of this colossal insult to Asimov's classic.
Still a good show.
As interesting as this show is it’s not Foundation