Hager Consumer Unit 18th Edition Upgrade
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- Hager Consumer Unit 18th Edition Upgrade
Thanks to our supplier Gil Lec for providing the Hager VML118SPD Consumer Unit & Mini RCBO's
www.gil-lec.co.uk
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This video is for entertainment purposes only please do not attempt to copy or recreate. Do so at your own risk.
Hi Jordan
To get over your concerns of the gas pipe why not install two lengths of CLS timber either side and fix a piece of 12mm or 18mm plywood Over the top of the CLS. then bring all the cables through the back entry holes on the consumer unit
Agreed, whilst the work is bang on and competent he made a dogs dinner in the whole where should I out the board/how do I get the cables to it scenario.
Jordan probably knows this isnt optimal in retrospect but as long as its electrically safe and correct then its meets regs and its down to the customer to see whether it has been done optimally.
Fair play as if these electricians didnt film their work and be brave enough to out it on YT for us to view then they would have no bother of someone commenting over the shoulder "dont do it like thattttt do it like thatttttt"
Either side? Vertically or horizontally? I’m trying to figure out your suggestion. Cheers
@@Ben-zn8pe I use two pieces of CLS either side with plywood board then run all cables in through the back entry knock outs
@@leebutterworth7465 Cheers mate.
I liked how neat the consumer unit is laid out.
A lot of different opinions. I personally would have used a metal j.b with a steel trunking. Used unistrut to build out beyond the pipe. Just my opinion. Change the time lapse music. Love the channel 👍
Thanks!
Why not use screw terminal din rail connectors, much neater one way then Wago
@Charles Vane DIN rail much neater job, you can fit cage clamp terminals instead of screw clamp. You can fit terminal numbers on the terminals to match the way numbers on the board.
Coming to this a lot later because I was looking for a solution to update an old split 10 way 2xRCD CU following a kitchen renovation, I liked the entire video which was very informative. I have changed the layout and the whole philosophy of a kitchen so I wanted to modify the electrical installation in line with 18th Edition (as much as possible). Yours is the ony project I have seen so far that comes close but I do have separate feeds to supply each of the washing machine, dryer and dishwasher; the fridge freezer; cooker (obviouly); undersink water boiler; kitchen sockets (radial) and existing circuits throughout the house (rings). So RCBOs seemed the obvious way to go, with a 16 or 18 way surge protected box like the Hager you demonstrated. However I have a few problems with this plan: researching the Hager boxes and accessories I realised that two and a half years after your video, the standard offering in electrical wholesalers is unchanged - 12 Way Insulated Flexible Dual RCD Consumer Unit 100A Main Switch + 2 x 63A 30mA RCDs - in every case I find a split load RCD based unit with a small note on the side that it is possible to buy RCBOs to fit and they cost around £25 each (plus VAT) which is four hundred quid or more and someone has to pay the VAT, almost a hundred quid more. So the populated 16 way CU is a monkey before VAT and before a single cable is added! The customer is looking at a grand for a CU upgrade!
I like the idea of separate circuit breakers for large appliances and smaller groups of outlets such as computers and AV equipment and finally moving away from ring circuits but all this involves a lot of RCBOs if we are to modernise so why have merchants not yet started changing their catalogues? The standard is still "populated" dual RCD and I have not even mentioned arc protection devices. My original trade was plumbing and heating, I trained more than forty years ago and spent years waiting for the industry to modernise only to watch, for decades, as new houses were built with old fashioned radiators and boilers and cylinders and cisterns! My experience of the last twenty years is that electrical installations are almost as slow: only the changing regulations force change in British construction habits but even 18th edition guidance is apparently ignored or delayed. Should not "good practice" have already pushed out the idea of "upgrading" with dual RCD consumer units? and should not prices have fallen on RCBO populated boxes? How long will it be before suppliers assume every new consumer unit should incude RCBOs, surge and arc protectection? Of course, by then we'll have a new edition with even more changes being ignored.
Well I've just learned about those connection boxes and the connections in them so thanks for that Jordan! 👏
I've gone off banjos after this. Great content.
I am an electrician for 42 years I have experienced when I have tested for dead on the incomers and found that the incomers where proved dead, found that some of the outgoing circuits were live fed from another supply I have found this issues a number of times, also found when isolating an mcb discovered that the mcb is welded closed these were Durham mcb's.
Industrial din rail through connectors would have been neater. JW has (as if planned) just done a vid about the very things! Good neat board and I agree with you regarding Hager. 😀👍
Personally, i think to get over the issue about the gas pipe/cables I would consider chasing the wall and imbedding the cables with a protective steel cover over the top. The method used in the vid using the wago in an adaptable box look like a disaster to be honest. I would hate to sort anything out if there was a fault in the future. Just really looks a mess. The board however looks professional. Thanks for the good vid Jordon.
Loved the clear and concise method, how your videos are produced. Camera is nice and still and all details covered
Much appreciated!
Hi thanks for the video in my opinion massive overkill with extending cables I would have fitted 18mm plywood board over the gas pipe and brought the cables thru the back of the CU you could have also then installed the new CU nearer the ceiling to give bit more length in the cables. Nice idea with the adaptable box din rail etc but don’t think was the right call in hindsight. Could have just crimped and heat shrink in the adaptable box instead as another option. Why so many spare ways -oh yeah you got the board for free ! Also why didn’t you bring the gas bonding cable through the box/trunking ? having gone to all that trouble you then stuffed it in the top of the board ! Anyway hindsight as they say is the perfect science, enjoyed watching a fellow spark up against it !
Just watched John Ward, his terminal din rail earth connectors actually clamped down and earthed the Din Rail, I have not used these Din rail connectors much myself over the years, but I wouldnt of thought of earthing the Din Rail in a plastic enclosure, you live and learn..
Interesting I will have to give that a watch!
@@artisanelectrics not sure if all the earths should be bonded to the Din Rail though, re testing..
Excellent video Jordan, honest and thinking on your feet to get the job done. Sent it to a pal who's considering a Hager board as well. Great feedback on the tail clamps that connects behind the SPD... strange one, but an excellent 'real world' consideration for Hager to consider. Really enjoyed all 45 minutes of the film. Thank you
That main earth clamped like that to the sheathing made me wince a bit. Never a good idea having a BS951 clamp used like that. I know it was found like that but you would never want to try and tighten them if you find them like that lol.
Interesting use of "Cowboy Music" ...is there a hidden message there ?.
😂
elsdonsparks maybe he's the sherif or marshall! 😂😂😂😂
Duelling Fuseboards
Definately Blue Grass/Deliverance sounds.
Excellent video,probably the best and most informative content I've seen in ages,so easy to follow and step by step explanations,well done
Thanks a lot!
Wow! I know they say music’s good for productivity but when that music plays you really get a spurt on!
Jordon I will no doubt be trying a Hager unit out myself. Liked the way SPD is prefitted in the CCU. Nice bit of work with neat finish of cables in the consumer unit. Wouldn't worry too much about the spaghetti in the connection box, it is what it is sometimes I'm afraid. Thanks matey always good to get tips from yourself. Top man
Thanks a lot!
@@artisanelectrics Where do you purchase the hager CCU. I can't to find it with SPD at TLC electrical retailer.
Something I noticed -- You checked to make sure there was no power at the main switch, but you did so with all the MBR's off, so if there were phantom power feeding back into the consumer unit from some circuit such as some hidden solar or generator or cross connection with another installation (and not just from the tails still being live) you wouldn't have known about it prior to handling those circuits when pulling the MBRs out.
Hi Jordan
just watched the video to the end, got to say it ended up being a complicated installation for you, just two criticisms the Hager plastic clip on the din rail blanks don't look very neat compared to metal clip in blanks used on something like the FuseBox boards (also their incoming cable clamps are supplied and fitted as standard in the correct place) but my main criticism is your Gas bonding isn't within 600mm of the gas meter.
chisel in to the brickwork and recess the cables slide a bit of capping behind the pipe fit a couple of 2x1 lats one each side of the cables and make a plywood cover . nice tidy job on the db
Suggestion for music - Aurora B.Polaris - The Vision Of Light [Chillstep]
Big fan of Wago connectors but would have used proper DIN rail 1 terminal connectors for the extentions.
Hi Jordan, fantastic job as usual. Just something I noticed, I may be wrong, I think those yellow Wago connectors are 773-102 which are rated at 24A, don't you think Wago 221 which are rated at 32A are a better choice for 32Amp circuits, such as ring? Thank you for very informative video.
I know what happened here. You wanted to get rid of a load of ideal/wagos that you havent used in years and probably never would...
As others have said you are looking at installing the CU in 2d if you look at it in 3d you could easily used some batten and ply to get it fitted higher up without extending cables and had the unit 3 inches off the wall.
Some slim but wide trunking would have done the cables from the ceiling underneath the gas pipe.
Thumbs up nontheless for filming and uploading
Another nice vid, thinking on the hop in a real world situation.
Good practice to install a MET for your main equipotential earth bonding
I normally use a smallish Bosch drill to do up everything set onto number 7 for speed and then go over everything with a screwdriver. Tork drivers arent used here and until they are I'm not purchasing one either. Mark
Cool thanks
At 13:28, you are replacing the fuse carrier -- without the screw that holds it together. Question: What do you do when you find you have lost the screw? Better to screw it together before replacing the carrier.
Is the voltmeter failing between first and second proving, something that anyone has actually experienced first hand ? I can see why you do it, but seems vanishingly unlikely with modern gear
Would that vanishingly unlikely person still be here to tell the tale? They say if it can happen, it will!
Hi mate, just fitted a Hager C/U with SPD last week populated with RCBO's. I really like them but if honest I didn't pick up on the main tail bracket locating fixing points as I only saw it as an accessory after opening up the box. Would be nice if they included it as part of the basic pack along with some of the plastic gland packs. Luckily my local supplier had the gland pack plates but couldn't get hold of the tail bracket but after watching this video I realise it would of been a waste. Keep up the good work !
Thanks!
Old school electrician here thinking of changing board due to additional circuits and future ev home point.Regulations have changed quite a bit from 15TH edition. Am i right in thinking you do not need twin rccds when RCBOs are fitted,and is an ordinary rcbo ok for 7kw charge point which i will leave for ev installer. thankyou
For the 7 kw load a 32 amp RCBO type A with a B curve would be fine for your EV.
Another great video Jordan. But please, no more cowboy music. lol.
I've fitted 100s of hager boards and really like them BUT why the square knockouts!? Makes it impossible to fit SWA or stuffing glands without drilling holes out ffs
Yeah I agree it is a flaw
Why did you not drill 2 more holes on the bar to fit the tails clamp?
Nice video as always Jordan..Extending circuit cables into a new C.U is never straightforward especially when gas and water pipes hinder the process. Interesting to see that Hagar incorporate an OCPD within the SPD. Controversial subject regarding the need to provide protection of the spd via either a built in or separate device. Some manufacturers provide neither which leaves their products non compliant with BS7671.
Thanks!
Perhaps a better option for the joints may have been a box with a bit of din rail on it and rail connectors like JW had posted up in his latest video. Neat job and not that expensive to buy i think.
Nice work. I’m from the US and have wondered why it is required in your area to insulate the grounds in the breaker box? Is it for safety since the panels out there are much much smaller than out here. Thanks for awesome content!
Hi Jordan and team,
Don't know if you're still answering questions on this one, but... The Main fuse from the DNO was just 60A, but the Isolator switch supplied in the CU was 100A. Is it appropriate to have the DNO 60A fuse as the OC point of failure?
Love the videos, Many thanks :)
The isolator switch is just a switch and 100A is the maximum amount of current it can switch.
Damn I’m fast here in Denmark.. FIRST AGAIN!😅🇩🇰 Nice video champ.🤟🏻
Awesome!
Jordan, Suggestion, why not mount the Hager DB to the left side wall and bring existing circuits along the ceiling avoiding the gas pipe ?
Meriden, Kansas semi retired electrician. Nice job. Liked the banjo music.
Thanks! 😁
What happened to TRS (Tough Rubber Sheathed) cable? Is that the same as VIR?
Don’t really see the need of the adaptable box personally . Major over kill . You managed to get all the cables in the adaptable box ok so why not the fuse board?
It would have looked a mess inside the fuse board having all those cables extended. This way at least the consumer unit looks neat inside.
Cheers Jordan, top vid and yer I love that connection box you used. Long day but all round nice neat job and also being the camera man job as well.
6mm on a 40amp ??
Came straight to the comments when I heard that! Sure hes done his calcs right
6.0mm² Twin & Earth Cable is rated at 40amp.
Shower circuit you can’t use 6mm for 40a max you can use 32a for 6mm if I am right, nice video learn so many things good job 👍
I would agree that given a HMO & the complexity of the extensions to the relocated board, that you should have considered security & conduited in metal as gives off impression of do not touch to tamperers. Only my opinion though..
Nice neat job with a good cable extension solution, however I have a few quick questions
63Amp main fuse, should an electric shower ever have been fitted? especially as you have it on a 40A RCBO and there is a cooker cct and several RFC's for sockets.
is 6mm T&E large enough for a shower with a 40A RCBO (9.2kW)
Is there sufficient division of the installation given that it is going to be an HMO with 8 rented rooms?
63A main fuse is probably way too small for an HMO with 8 rooms, let alone insufficient division of the installation.
What height was the new CU mounted at?
Not sure Marco below has the right approach, I believe you were absolutely correct to extend the cables, also I believe Izalman below is wrong to use "proper DIN rail 1 terminal connectors", Wago have no screws and therefore are one less thing to worry about in future. The more we can avoid any form of screw terminals, even in non maintenance free areas, the better as no one will ever check they are still tight in a few years time.
Just did my first consumer unit change and use a massive double tier Hager with SPD and RCBO's lovely kit, dont cant to use anything else. I'd welcome your approach on pulling the main fuse and notifying DNO/Supplier as the whole area seems very grey?
Most DNOs don’t care if you pull the main fuse, it’s the only way to safely isolate it there is no main isolator for the installation.
I do like how the blanks mask the open remaining bus bar, great feature, other manufacturers take note, ;-) great videos would personally have bridged the pipework to mask the cable entries and leave the pipework free for future works etc, but great job. One question though why did you not actually mitre the trunking? a bugbear of mine with my apprentices from what they are taught? I college?? I have been doing this job for 30+ years and this is the real let down for modern teaching. Though I do agree in most cases with the pre-made corners they either never fit right or cause other cosmetic issues, more so with IP rating entry points. Keep up the awesome content, my apprentices love your channel and I am now a subscriber to 👌👍stay safe during all the madness too.
Could have put bushes and lock rings between trunking and board to avoid making a bend, but tidy job
I have to ask, why didn't you use din rail screw connectors? I'm supprised you where happy with that nest in the extensions, everything else I've seen you do has been so tidy.
Move the gas pipe so many times the Sparky's have to work around other trades and other trades are left to do what they wish
Is it ok to run cables behind the gas pipe like that?
Look under your floorboards mate, lol
Gas regs state that there should be a minimum of 25mm clearance between a gas pipe and any cables or a fire proof barrier, I am gas safe registered as well as an electrician.
I Thought that type of HMO house being rented had to be AFDDs for the sockets
Hi I installed one of these today found the neutral fly lead seems to get a bit short as you go along and defo needed Ferrells on
Overall though quality board
Nice one
why there are two live wires on top of the breakers can you explain more the connection
What's the take on intumescent liners and fire supression strips for 18th Edition CUs? Overkill?
Hey man en good and clean video as always.
May i ask why are al consumer unit's in the uk mat out of metal has it to do because of some fire rating.
in the Netherlands al consumer unit are made of plastic with only the industrial/factory ones made of metal.
Yeah your right it is for fire, it's because the idiots in this country have limp wrists and can't be trusted to fit a plastic unit any more.
Yeah pretty much, the regulations say they have to be made out of non combustible material
@@artisanelectrics it's because the London fire brigade approached the I.E.T electrical regulation people to get them changed to Metallic and using fire retaining clips in trunking in hallways as they got in the way when they melted.
I think this has been said a few times, but the banjo is not really great.
Other than that, great video and explanation as always.
If The consumer unit Needs to be a metal Box how comes the connector box you used is not metal also ?????
Because ammendment 3 only said that distribution equipment (circuit breakers etc) should be enclosed in fire resistant material. It doesn't extend to junction boxes and such like so plastic can still be used.
You could swap the position of the main switch and the SPD , then you could mount that mechanical security bracket for the service tails. forgive my terms I am a KIWI
Yeah that’s right but it’s a bit of a pain to do that!
I think I prefer Nick Bundy's way of extending to a new CU as seen here: ruclips.net/video/2yTwQxlc6gU/видео.html (at around the 11m55s mark)
A very good call - I was wanting to point Jordan to Nick's video but thought it might be interpreted as disrespectful, hopefully he might take a look at it for the next time, it certainly looked easier and neater than what he did, although Jordan did say he didn't like the end result, a touch of OCD he said. BTW how did you put the link into your comment.
Yeah I agree nicks way looks neater
Should the earth bond to the gas pipe be within 600mm of the outlet, or is that just advisory? When I install gas meters we are instructed to advise the customer to have it moved if too far from the meter outlet.
oh for the gas pipe squashing the cables, we apply a yellow insulation to the gas pipe
Yes it should be but in this case it’s within line of sight and they will both be in the same cupboard so not a problem
It appears that the disconnector between the meter and distribution board has been missed out, is there a reason for that.
Hi, would do testing like IR, Ze on the main switch or on the SPD?
THANKS
Fuse board - great job but that junction box is shocking, how could you leave it like that!!!
Thats where all the spaghetti went.
It looks worse than it is? It’s just cos the wires are all curly wurly
The just snuck in to use RCBOs in a HMOm according to 2022 amendment AFDDs are required
If you are going to put in connectors then you could re-route the cables away from the GAS pipe just saying!
I quite like the M2 boards the really good hager boards are alright too
Love Hager boards!
I can see that there is no way round it but cables should be 25mm away from Gas pipes 👍 I haven't got any further in the video yet but by the looks of the comments I've got some cowboy music to look forward to 🙄😂
Like the wago din system. Not seen that before. Have you tried a wylex board? The’re the only ones I fit but not tried a Hager in recent years. Excellent vid
Thanks yeah I’ve fitted Wylex before but prefer Hager!
Hi. Ive been watching because i have been told i need to replace my 20 year old fuse box for the EICR test. Ive never had problems with fuse box but a sparky says it needs replacing with 18th edition dual supply tarrif. How much would it cost to change the fuse box fitted and with then EICR test. As ive been qouted £1,115.87. I would be interested to now a rough pruce. Thank you.
Added another point of possible failure with that J box , what was wrong with the original in the fist place, seams like a lot of work for no benefit
how much time has it taken to reroute these cables , longer than you first though to do the job
Safe isolation is all about being in control... The fact that you are in control with that fuse out so no one can liven it without you knowing plus in an empty property, it is actually safer than locking off and going to another location coz someone can do something malicious without you knowing.
Locking off is a recognised method of safe isolation, doing what you did, taking account of risk assessment, I'd say it's safe because you're in control
Yeah you’re right good comment
@@artisanelectrics also according to Best Practice Guide 2, page 6 bottom of left column states "Adequate precautions shall be taken to prevent electrical equipment, which has been made dead in order to prevent danger while work is carried out on or near that equipment, from becoming electrically charged during that work if danger may thereby arise. This regulation therefore requires that adequate precautions are taken to ensure that conductors and equipment cannot inadvertently be energised while the work is taking place - this is the process of isolation"
A fuse can only protect what’s down stream of it. The fuse in the cut out protects anything upstream of the RCBO/MCB etc. It’s the same as how a FCUnprotects the flex to an appliance etc and not the 2.5mm ring feeding it.
A fuse can absolutely protect upstream cabling from overcurrent. Just not mechanical damage.
Monkeh that’s not the design intent. Protection is always upstream.
@@chrisb4009 Considering the upstream protection is not adequate for the size of conductor the DNO brings into properties, you may well find it is.
Monkeh so you’re suggesting if there is a cable fault on DNO wiring it’s not protected?
@@chrisb4009 I'm saying that the upstream 300A+ fuse is not overcurrent protection (outside of hard shorts) for the 16mm² cable into a property. However, with a 100A or less fuse on the end of it, it gets quite hard to arrange for such extended overloads.. Downstream overcurrent protection in action.
What is the empty PE terminal used for on the SPD's?!
All you would have needed to do is cut the bottom of the 90 degree elbow out and everything would have still been covered. Plus maybe a little glue. Just an idea. or cut the bottom of the trunking that is above the 90 if you follow.
Thanks
Hi Jordan. Do you have a link on the extension box you use. Thanks
I’m about to buy one of these and get it installed, can’t you take a day trip to Manchester for me?! I have an EV charger you can use 🥳
If a base Hager Design 50 Consumer Unit with a main switch disconnector (but without a Type 2 SPD) is £120, why does the same Design 50 Consumer Unit with a Type 2 SPD factory fitted by Hager cost £270. I can buy a Hager Type 2 SPD for £40 and fit it myself, giving a total cost £160, instead of £270. So what am I getting from Hager for my extra £110, seems to make no sense to me, but am I missing something here?
I’m not a tradesman.
Surely if you pushed the new boArd forward on some sort of frame cables could have been routed in-front of gas pipe and therefore could do rear entry into the new CU. Must have took you twice as long as it should of took. As a customer I would not of been happy. The junction box was like a plate of spaghetti. Could you not of run connectors vertically so cable in at top and out at bottom.
Nice mate, he is top spark he get will paid, so he can spend whole year. Nice video
Can I ask about the wagons. The reds are rated to 32 and the yellows I think to 24? I think you used them on a shower and oven then all the ring mains went through yellows. Maybe I’m wrong?
Yeah so 24 amps is ok for a ring main as current is shared down both side of the circuit
Artisan Electrics yeah that’s cool but what if you have a break in one of the legs then you have the possibility of 32amp down one leg? The only reason I say is I had this discussion with Elecsa and was told I should be using the correct connector for the max load. Great work though.
Recently having listened to the illuminating E5 podcasts on SPDs..
'Built-in overcurrent protection' appears incorrect: The board datasheet says you should rely on the DNO fuse, the manual for the SPD assembly is.. unclear, but specifies a maximum of a C32 breaker, apparently alternatively up a 125A fuse (how these are comparable I cannot fathom). In either case, it also specifies 16mm² connecting cables to allow for a 100A fuse, which the ones in their CU assembly seem a little slender for.
Prepopulated CUs of any type always seem to be an ugly surprise when you look below the surface..
Interesting comment thanks
@@artisanelectrics SPDs seem to be an expanding minefield with few clear answers in sight.
It'd be illuminating to see inside one of these, but with an SPD215D having a list price of £180 (no idea what they're really going for), I'm not volunteering.
Where are the bootlace ferrels?
Hi there, I'm having my house rewired and hoping to get this board this installed. Please can anyone tell me if its compliant with 18 edition, amendment 2? Thanks in advance
Great video as usual but the advert that was shown before your video was ask a spark what are these company's thinking of getting the general public to phone sparkles and ask how repair there electrics over the phone is it just me
Wow that’s amazing didn’t know that thanks!
I think they are just robot generated adverts depending on your IP address, I got one for Grammarly as my spelling is awful lol.
What is the purpose of the functional earth?
James Ahmat The functional earth on the old style RCBO’s was used to allow the device to detect and earth fault even if the neutral to the Installation was lost. The non functional earth rcbos use and electro mechanical tripping arrangement within the device whereas the modules with a functional earth employ what is known as an electronic operating system incorporating monitoring of neutral loss via the extra lead. There is a grey area within the industry regarding the need for the functional earth as the supply authority claim they have accurate and reliable monitoring equipment to detect loss of neutral of the supply. Can’t see how that guarantees protection to the client if the pen conductor in a TN-C-S system is lost because we all know how useless some of these DNO people can be when it comes to rectifying reported issues.
You didnt put spacers in between MCB's
What is the PE connector for on the SSD
They are pretty good boards, funny how plumbers make a fuss about a cable being within 25mm of their pipe, but when it suits they will run them anywhere.
Could you have put the board on the other side of the wall to save that joint box.
Only thing with Hager boards is your wera driver only goes to 3.5nm, and their main switch is supposed to be 3.6nm.
Yeah I could have put it other side of wall but it would be in a bedroom which is not ideal in a HMO, better if it’s in a communal area.
These are brilliant.
Yeah great boards
What do you do with the old boards you take out send them to me
cut the 90s bottom panel off?
I would use a 45 degree angle
Nice video jorden please change ur music lol n stay safe bud
Thanks you don’t like country music eh?!
The bonding clamp for the gas meter should not be more than 600mm from the meter
Correct
Brilliant