DEBUNKED: Samito's Counterswapping Argument
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- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2024
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Samito's Original Video: • PROOF Overwatch 2 will...
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Timestamps:
00:00 1a - The Original Counterswap Argument
02:20 1b - Going Through Each Premise
04:56 1c - My 3 Main Arguments
05:57 2a - Argument From Design
07:24 2b - Elaboration
13:49 2c - Refuting/Evaluating
15:23 3a - Argument From Composition
16:07 3b - Elaboration
18:01 3c - Refuting/Evaluating
19:47 4a - Argument From Evaluation
22:27 5a - Summary
#Samito #Overwatch2 #Overwatch 
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I'd love to see this.
Same
amen
I'm surprised he hasn't been invited yet.
The secomd he said "as a philosophy major" i knew the man wasnt gonna have any takes worth listening too 😂
But that would just make tanks boring. Tank is already boring when characters like Mauga and orisa are unironically the best feeling characters all the time now so generalizing the entire role into being more dynamic would just kill the role. Yeah you “fixed” the role by making tanks play almost the exact same which already is happening as we have almost half or more of the roster of tanks being brawlers. Tbh if we don’t go back to 6v6 (WITH PROPER REWORKS), or at the very least try this game is going to lose all of its identity and charm and I’m surprised this isn’t being talked about enough.
The issue I have with your fix is that if you fix counterswapping by making every tank just as good at everything as the others, then why even bother having (at the time of making this comment) 12 different tanks?
If all tanks are the same, then there's no point in having 12 tanks, and if they are not the same, then it's inevitable that some will be more favored depending on the matchup... Which literally makes it so that counterswapping still exists.
However, what if instead of making all tanks good at everything, you make them more unique, make it so that they are really good at specific things and with some other weakness; and then add another tank that will be used to cover said weakness.
That's what made 6v6 beautiful, being able to cover for each other's weaknesses.
For example, take Rein-Zarya.
Rein was REALLY good at protecting teammates from long range damage, but TERRIBLE at protecting them from short range damage. Zarya was the other way around.
When you combined them, they would complement each other's weakness, and it was BEAUTIFUL.
Think of it it like what being in a relationship is like, if you were the same as your partner, then it would be really boring, but since both you and your partner are human, you will both have flaws... and the best relationships is where one's strength is able to help your partner with their flaws and vice versa, basically completing each other.
yeah making tanks more generic is the WORST take I probably ever seen, tanks are a BIG chunk of what makes overwatch unique, and I HATE that they've already watered down characters to be less unique as it is, we do NOT need more of that lmao
Nah samito makes good points i know people dont like him cus of his "ego" but he is still one of the better overwatch players, the problem with 5v5 is because without a second tank there is no balance for helping stop counter focused play, you pick doom, they pick roadhog, you pick mauga, they pick orisa, its also an issue on support a bit. They pick ana now you have to pick kiriko or else your tanks life is even more depressing, it is an issue and makes tank feel miserable.
I mean sure, you can mitigate the effect of counterswapping to an extent by making every tank a generalist, but then they are less interesting heroes and plus this takes a shit ton of time for them to do. And as seen with hog their reworks aren't reliable at all.
And the argument with flats where he's like 0.0001% and in lower ranks you should just get better is such a bullshit argument. First of all flats can also be better, he can literally be fearless and onetrick monkey and he would win that junkertown game easily. But it's so fucked that you need to be significantly better just to play into counters.
Overall I don't understand the point of this video. It's very obvious that counterswapping existed before 5v5 and will exist after it. But in 5v5 you're rewarded way more for counterswapping than ever before. And you argue that you can fix this problem with hero design but at the same time devs have released illari and mauga just now. I wouldn't trust them with anything. Plus with how long it takes them to do simplistic changes like with hog it's just silly to even argue on their behalf.
u proved nothing respectfully
You just validated all of Samito's arguments.... The tanks were never designed to be played in 5v5. Your solution is to redesigned the tanks which they will never do. You got farmed for free.....
most of the tanks that got REWORKED for 5v5 are extremely well done for the format. most of the new tanks added to the game are extremely well suited for 5v5. the issue is literally 3 tanks that are not designed well, orisa, mauga and hog. if you remove those 3 from the game entirely, overwatch will feel better immediately. but removing a character from a game is not a solution, so the only viable solution is a rework or a mentality shift from the entire overwatch playerbase. which of those is more likely? the reworks. because it is literally impossible to get an entire playerbase to swap their whole comp to counter a tank.
he never argued once that every tank should be redesigned. just the problem tanks. if you bring down the oppressive power of specific tanks then the issue can actually be tackled.
@@kregman6928 REINHARDT IS WELL DESIGNED ???
@@maxchess6734he is, but most of the tanks are just way stronger on paper, which makes him seem badly designed
@@k24kai06 rein's design has the same problem as mauga. The difference is that rein has a shield but he is far weaker to boops.
@@maxchess6734 quite literally the definition of well designed. its not his fault orisa is absolutely poorly designed.
Nahh. Nothing in this video is a legitimate way to make 5v5 tank fun. Homogenize the role or rely on your team to counterswap them counterswapping you aren’t acceptable answers in my opnion.
EXACTLY dude making characters less generic?? hell tf nah, they've done that enough as it is lmao, they need to go in the opposite direction imo, make characters even more specialist or as much as they were in ow1
Uhh, about your argument that dps and supports should counterswap the tank : what should i play against zaria, tracer, bastion, ana zen ? Their tank may not be countering me, but i'm pretty sure i'm not having fun, whatever the tank i'm playing. And without a tank, my team is just going to get rolled by the zaria and the tracer...
8:39 YES IT DOES, IT LITERALLY DOES
To be absolutely honest, I don’t think the arguments presented are wrong, but i do think that in terms of feasibility a combination of 6v6 and hero reworks would be preferable. Aaron keller was talking about this in the flats interview: the main problem with tank is how much pressure there is on one player. The only way to alleviate that pressure is to either go back to 6v6 or completely restructure the entire game from the ground up.
To that end, i’d like to offer a third solution I’ve heard; the same one as HotS where we go all-in on role queue and split the 3 roles up in 5 roles: tank, brawler, dps, healer, support. If we stay with 5v5, I honestly believe this might be the best solution. Especially if we then have basic rules for each role. For example all tanks can mitigate damage in some way. All brawlers are like a tank/DPS hybrid. All DPS excel at damaging in some ways. All healers can provide strong healing and all supports provide weak healing but more utility.
We'll put together video, but tbh your solution sounds less fun than 6v6. I think you've almost convinced me in the opposite direction. I believe you argument, I just don't think the solution sounds very fun to play
LMAO it's crazy that 5v5 arguments just make people realize 6v6 is just better
Bro successfully proved nothing
Tank Synergies are the most fun and deep solution gameplay wise to the problem. They are what made OW1's meta diverse and map/defense/offense dependent.
'They are what made OW1's meta diverse'
This assumes OW2's meta hasn't been diverse. Which if you watched OWL Playoffs last year (or frankly, the majority of OWL when the patch was fairly balanced or even this patch right now) you'd see is clearly not the case.
OW1 meta diversity? Lol what!?
Tank synergies are what busted the game. I’ll never forget the horrors of a Winston cloaked in the protection of a Zarya bubble landing on us backliners.
Or trying to take an angle around a contested choke, finding yourself in a 1v1 vs Dva on the flank, and still seeing the choke clogged by a Reinhardt
Yes they were supper fun sometimes, but you fail to remember how unfun they were sometimes.
In your average role lock ranked game you would SOMETIMES get good synergies (Dva Rein, Orisa Hog, Orisa Sigma, etc).
You would also, at the same rate or worse, get Anti-Synergies (Hog Dva, Winston Orisa, Dva Zarya, etc).
Pink tinted glasses all around lol
-Tank Synergy made it absolute hell for the devs to balance around certain tanks without sending another one to the shitter by accident
-Some tanks literally only worked with certain other tanks and it was a throw pick to do anything else, it was very strict on your hero pool, if you dont play this character right here, you have already lost
-If you had a paired up tank player that did not play into the Synergy, you yourself would have an absolutely terrible game against a competent team
-These are the most prone to breaking the game's balance
I really don't want to write an essay to refute this but changing multiple heroes' fundamental design to add depth to the tank matchup and make a more fun game instead of simply adding another tank to achieve the exact same thing is silly to me.
how can you argue that adding a second tank will do the exact same thing? doom rein will still be unplayable into orisa roadhog. rein zrya will be unplayable into orisa dva. rein dva will be unplayable into sigma orisa. winston dva will be unplayable into junker doom. adding another tank might elevate some matchups but the problem is that certain characters still completely and utterly negate other heroes and this was never a problem in overwatch 1. anything was playable into anything because there were no real hard counters. hero design has to be changed here.
@@kregman6928 That's the difference, DOOM would be unplayable into orisa hog, but reinhardt and zarya would actually work nicely, only one tank has to swap rather than the entire tankline.
@@alexfreed2519 rein zarya would not work nicely into orisa hog because orisa is that poorly designed. rein will not be able to do the job he is meant to do. he gets close, nice he gets bubbles. bubble breaks. rein drops instantly because he has no shield because of hog and orisa shield dmg, rein charges in, doesnt matter orisa negates that entirely and if she doesnt then hog hooks him out anyways. once rein drops, zarya is dead in the water. if it was any other tank that wasnt orisa, this would work fine. and the same applies to literally everything. if orisa was not in the game, the comp would work fine. the issue is orisas design and not 5v5 as a format. if orisa was like she is now in 6v6, she would be in every single comp and would be the actual only playable main tank, she does far too much and has far too much in her kit.
that is the whole argument in this video. he isnt saying all tanks should do the same job. just that the outlier tanks need to brought down so they dont hard counter. again, hard counters did not exist in ow1 the way they do in ow2. there was no unplayable matchups ever. maybe orisa road was an issue because of the stupidity of pull into hook combo. but at that time, orisa had nothing besides a pull in her kit. now she has overhealth, dmg reduction, no headshots, movement speed increase, infinite knockback, unstoppable, projectile eating, infinite ranged stun and a completely uncounterable ultimate ability.
@@kregman6928 are you alright? Rein shield breaks, zaria gives bubble, bubble wears off or pops, shield goes back up and so on and so forth all the while zarya gets charge to beam orisa, and rein blocks hook LoS on his supports and DPS.
This is how it was before they gave the axe to the 2nd tank. Granted, of they went with adding a second tank obviously things like the HP changes and global damage and healing buffs would need to be reverted in order to keep the game from being power crept to hell and back. But you have to remember that the issue at hand is that tanking feels miserable to play because of the tremendous amount of resources all focused into ONE person. The solution is right in front of us but blizzard and people like you choose to be blind to it.
@@alexfreed2519 xD bro what are you talking about. how will rein ever get near the enemy with his shield having enough health to fight. bubble will drop almost instantly and if reins shield is broken, he dies before zarya can deal with anything or peel enough for him. and this leaves zarya with no bubble for herself and assumes the orisa road are just standing there not using their stuff and not reacting to the reins abilities or zaryas abilities being down. again, that fight doesnt even matter because orisa completely makes rein useless. old orisa was fine. rein comps did really well into her. but she isnt old orisa. rein literally cannot get close to her and still be useful. and if they can, the zarya and rein will have to play leaps and bounds better than the orisa and hog because they will have to fully coordinate every single thing they do to absolute perfection. but orisa can push E and rein is screwed. or hit a spear and knock him back or just hold left click.
you are saying 6v6 solves the issues with no proof it ever will. youre living in lala land and are actively ignoring the real issue. its character design. that is the issue, that is why counter swap is a thing. its not because its 5v5. the game has fundamentally changed. they cant revert that. they can just fix the tanks that make the role boring. noone likes orisa meta, noone likes mauga meta. ive never heard anyone complain when its rein meta. literally never once ever. ive never heard anyone complain about doom meta or dva meta or winston meta. all those tanks have counterplay with any other tank. besides with mauga and orisa and sometimes roadhog.
to make the game 6v6, they will have to change the entire game again. literally all tanks will need to be reworked completely again. mauga can never exist in 6v6 how he is right now. it would be so insanely oppresive to have a mauga with literally 0 counterplay. he will have literally 0 counterplay if another tank can cover his weakness. and then we get the situation of goats. everyone will just play mirror unkillable comps. literally impossible to play the game again. same issues as overwatch 1 and everyone quits the game.
maybe in the future they make enough changes to the rest of the game that they can then think about 6v6. how far in the future? maybe a year, maybe 2. but how the game is right now. its literally impossible.
I would love to see samito hold a real tournament that is 6v6 to see how his vision goes. you can do that in custom games no? 6v6? then you just force 2-2-2 so people cant do goats. but one tournament wont be enough, it would have to be a lot. but if he wants to praise 6v6 so much then he should 100% do this to at least show people how it will function in current climate.
I'm a ball ontrick. I never feel countered by the other tank. I'm always countered by support (brig, ana) and dps (SOMBRA)
As a fellow Ball, I can second this. Sombra and Ana counter him so hard. I feel like ball form shouldn't be a cooldown and shouldn't be affected by hack. Taking away his hook AND shields is more than enough; taking ball form just makes him feel bad to play if there's a Sombra on the other team because hack is a death sentence.
@@voodude1074 every other hero that can swap forms, (ramattra, bastion), don't get kicked out of their form which is crazy
Ball just functions differently though. He’s the least “tank” tank there is. His entire value comes from disruption.
If you’re playing Reinhardt, you know who’s shutting you down the most - the enemy Orisa. If you swap to Winston, then it becomes the DVa. Swap DVa, it becomes the Zarya.
The reason you notice other counterpicks is because they work significantly better to stop a ball from setting up or just disrupting the ball in general.
Doesn’t work as well when you try Ana into DVa or Sombra into Ramattra.
@@pindy6109 none of that has anything to do with the fact that Ball is too easily hard countered by like a third of the cast.
@@voodude1074 Ball is an absurdly OP tank. He's not too easily countered, it requires you to adjust your playstyle to those strong picks.
That Intro is gold ngl
Samito is always right come fight me 1v1 torb hammer ⚒️ duel
Erm, I have a degree so let me argue semantics instead of broad gameplay philosophy.
I like the video and it was interesting but I found you made the argument for 6v6 more compelling over homogenising the tank role. Overall i agree that tank reworks can fix the 5v5 issue of counterswapping but Aaron’s latest announcement of two DPS reworks currently underway and yet not to expect them soon shows this would be a multi-year endeavor, whilst multiple tanks are already accessible in open queue (and are generally the preferred option).
I did miss one argument though; there was no talk on ‘community perception’ and how teams can get annoyed with a tank not playing the right hero against the enemy team (as evidenced in a number of Cyx videos).
yeah this whole argument about reducing tanks diversity didn't convince me at all
this video is not talking about homogenising at all. the issue with the strong tanks is that the ones that ONLY do one thing, do it far too well for the other tanks to keep up so bringing down the overall powerlevel of that tank and reworking their kit will fix that issue. he isnt saying all tanks should be able to do everything equally but there should never be a point in any game ever where orisa makes the game absolutely unplayable for a rein. thats a hero design issue that can only be solved by changing orisa. a hog should never be able to completely and utterly negate doomfist. in fact, currently orisa is bugged and playing doomf/rein into her is literally impossible because she now has a free stun in her kit with no counterplay.
@@kregman6928 Check 8:30 in the video where the concept of similar is brought up. It is not making all tanks the same but adjusting each tank to reduce their flaws and strengths to make them have less of a counter( The example given is ramattra). This is a form of homogenizing where the each tank must be able to do X and Y to fit into a comp playstyle such as poke or dive. I feel this would take alot of redesign work to adjust all the required tank heroes.
Not many people talk about this point, but along with 5v5, counter swapping is an issue due to the lack of mechanical skill expression of tanks. The skill of tank mostly resides in game sense skills like positioning, aggression, and cool down usage, but this creates a problem when the matchmaking is based around players having similar game sense. The other roles don’t experience the counterswap issue nearly as bad because they have the mechanical skill expression in their kits to win unfavorable matchups. In theory, Cassidy counters Pharah, but Pharah can use superior movement and better aim to win the matchup. Combine this with the fact that Cassidy counters Pharah through hitscan aim, which means that you have to have a certain level of mechanical skill to even counter the Pharah. If you compare this to tank counters, the difference is clear. Anybody can swap to Dva to counter Winston, and there’s nothing a Winston can do to win that matchup through mechanics. Same goes for practically every tank counter. It’s also why Mauga was so dominant, because his mechanical skill requirement is so low that anybody could play him. So while the problem was certainly perpetuated most by 5v5, lack of mechanical skill expression plays a big role in tank counterwatch too.
Nice intro laughed a lot
20:10 your argument here doesn't refute Samito because his argument is that the counterswapping problem is at the skill FLOOR not the skill ceiling. every rank gets instant value by counterswapping.
About zarya what if they rework her passive to give her movement speed insted of damage, and averege her damage out to something like 50% charge, so that her damage is more consistent and her damege is no longer extreme and the added speed gives her a new way to skillfuly avoiding damage by moveing unpredictivly bumping up her survivability without giving her more stats, also it is coerent with her hero identity because the energy she absorbe is transformed in kinetic energy
Another thing they gotta do is curb certain abilities like sombra hack and maybe even finally curb tank busters like torb, reaper and bastion because alot of the tank counterswapping comes from these heros whos entire identity is countering the tank and a role probably shouldn't have general picks people can play that counter most their options. We just dont need tank busters and counters in the game now, but if we go back to 6v6 than we do which is something no one brings up, if we go back to 6v6, than mcree needs his nade back, mei needs her freeze back, sombra hack will be longer and bastion will probably get more dmg to compensate or shorter cool downs, and yea we could just go back and not bring this stuff back or we can stay in 5v5 and remove this stuff almost entirely, but either way tank has always felt bad because certain compositions just shut you down like weve all seen the 6v6 clips of a ball getting chain cc'd for like 5 to 6 seconds straight 😂
We just gotta let the devs cook, and hope they change their minds on removing aggressive tank counters from the game and kick their asses into gear on diversifying the tanks.
at the end, tanking in ow2 is far worse than ow1. game feels like garbage, hence why 80% of players want 6v6 back. only the morons that still complain about double shield (even when that is already fixed by orisa not having a shield and ramattra ignoring shields) are the ones who argue that 5v5 is better. hint: they dont play tank and are bad supports who find easier healing a single tank than having one extra target to heal with 2 tanks. i think more than 90% of gm players already admit 6v6 is just better all around
You don't realize what a vocal minority is, right? How do you exactly know that 80% players want 6v6 back? Do you know every players' opinion?
Also, we're not getting 6v6 regardless, the devs are too far in their plans to go into a diff direction and plans to stay on that track. If you know how game development works esp in this day and age the devs can't just flip a button and boom 6v6 back. Everything is all rainbows and sunshine. That's not realistic, and you know it is. Yet you rage all day about you want 6v6 back like a baby instead of being the adult and realizing that upper management or Microsoft is not letting the devs go another hiatus to bring the game back to 6v6.
So sit and shut tf up about 6v6 so we can find other solutions.
Also what a goofy thing to mention that one ram is just gonna blow through double shield when there's likely gonna be another ram and a sig on the other side of those shields . I fkn dread to think of some of the tank synergies that will emerge from going back to 6v6 and the hell the devs will face trying to balance them 😂 junker queen mauga... Rein ramattra... SIG ramattra . fkn kill me . Nostalgia is clouding your brain. It's almost getting kind of frustrating at this point.. I'd love to peer into the future and see all these 6v6 bots complaining when these wildly oppressive metas start forming.
6v6 was fine and always has been the problem wasnt there being 2 tanks the problem was the caracter design, giving 1 tank too much that when theres 2 tanks its just impossible to counter or play around it, Double shield for example
the reason people say counter swapping is unfixable is because tank players DO NOT want every tank to do the exact same thing just so theyre playable, people fell in love with playing tank because of how unique it was, even 5v5 supporters hate mauga which is ironic because every tank would need to become mauga to stop counter swapping, people do not want that and it shouldnt even be taken into consideration, theres a reason big personalities that support 5v5 never bring this up, they know its the only other way to fix counterswapping and they know if most people know that they have to make every tank mauga theyd stop supporting the format. on top of that anyone that wants to be honest can attest to how little people are communicating now in comparison to ow1, a gold team playing double shield will communicate more in one game than 5 whole masters games, like this game went from being a team game to looking at someone and shooting with a minimal need for teamwork the format is just chalked
7:54 Or these are the heroes that Spilo calls caricatures.
it would be cool if they just removed the splash damage from zarya's right-click and maybe give her more boop for herself to give her more mobility
23 minutes of bad arguments that doesn't make any sense. Game sucks and bringing 6v6 is the best solution. Simple as that.
What aspects of his arguments did you disagree with?
@@alexboi9454 Real. So many people are quick to hop on the bandwagon instead of actually playing and analyzing the game to form their own opinions. Just another person who probably played the original overwatch casually for one season and likes to rag on overwatch 2 despite the benefits that have come from recent updates.
I lost all my friends with the transition to 5v5 and that's all there is to say about that.
5v5 might be able to stay, if they beef up tanks and make the DPS passive not apply to them.
3:38 I've never had a game like that. Saying 5v5 doesn't work because of that game flats had is dumb.
lmao it usually happens on a less INSANE degree, but it very much happens, and is very much NOT fun at ALL lmao
flats it NOT the only one experiencing it, but nobody plays tank anymore so maybe lmao
I reckon there's easily a seat for you on groupup
"it doesnt matter because if you are in plat you can beat the other tank by being the skill of top 500" ..... no shit, but yeah most of this I agree with the conclusion is that the specific issue of counter swapping can be easily made better that what we have now, but that ignores whether the game as a whole would improve, and whether 6v6 would be better anyway
Is this clickbait? Not one good argument against counterswapping for the tank role as the most optimal way to play.
So to sum up your argument, tomfix 5v5 we just make all the Tanks similar/the same? That would be boring and gut the unique identities of the characters.
Your arguing for a more restrictive, boring, and less creative hero design.
If that was the games design philosophy we'd never have gotten characters like Ball or any of the fun, unique and varied characters in the games roster.
If that's the design philosophy for Tanks going forward we will never get unique kits. They will all just he different flavors of Sigma/Ram/Orisa.
If this is the best argument for 5v5, I'm even MORE CONVINCED that we need 6v6 back.
Oh yeah im in a kajor video reacting to a samito video i was in where he was reacting to a flats video i was also on. Clout!!! 💀💀
Why not just unite as a community behind the better format:( you seem like a likable guy. You even admit 6v6 is better
On the first point, yes maybe it would make it less noticeable, but the problem is the 1 on 1. In a game where theres only 1 tank there will always be 1 tank thats stronger against more of the other good tanks. The only way you can have most tanks have a fair matchup is if they had similar kits, strenghts and weaknesses, so they were affected equally by eachother, and even if that happens, if the characters are ever slightly different there would be a stronger one at all times.
On the second point, thats not how it works on ranked, expecting your team to switch already happens, but the fact is, sometimes the enemy hog will just be making you lose and yet none of your supports want to play ana, wich makes the swap responsability come back to you, it does not change a thing.
For the most part i feel like you are trying to "fix" peoples POV instead of fixing the game overall.
For the problems on 6v6 i think what is brought up the most is double shield and not having an optimal synergy. Double shield was caused by not having updates on the game, they brought double shield, then they update a maybe months later, isnt fixed, months later again, lets try patching, not fixed yet. But in the meantime, with how the ow team currently had we would have had at least 4 to 5 patches, wich facilitates fixing shitty metas.
For non optimal synergies. I dont think thats a big issue, that happens on overwatch 2 and with supports as well, what do you do when your supports pick lucio and mercy? Or brigg and lucio? You do nothing, you are playing with an handicap. But as a support you can see that you have a brigg(lets shes very bad at the moment for this argument) well maybe youd prefer a lucio, but you can still pick ana and have a kinda decent comp right?Or if you are a dps or a tank player you can still pick a comp that doesnt need sustain as much, making the match more playable. Same for tanks, what did you do when you had a bad tank lineup? Well you either accept that you have a handicap or you as a tank pick something that fixes it, as a dps/support pick something that maybe lessens the problem. Wich i would say its what happens in 5v5 as well.
I Believe 5v5 could be fine, but i also believe that most of 5v5 problems are caused by the format, where 6v6 problems were caused by balance and hero design.
(Btw sorry for bad english)
I think you can break ow2 tank down into a few required elements as hero designs. First is a defensive option that doesn't interrupt offensive pressure (mobility counts). Second, conditional ranged pressure. examples of some well-made ranged pressure are orisa javelin or winston secondary fire. Examples of trash ranged pressure, zar secondary and ball primary fire. Examples of overpowered ranged pressure, orisa primary fire and hog hook. Third, an Oh Shit button that doesn't depend on healing or dealing damage. If all tanks had those 3 things, then you should get significantly fewer complaints about tank as long as your premises providesd are true
orisa javelin is not a well made ranged pressure because its fast travelling and cancels abilities while stunning the player, has infinite range with no drop off and a short cooldown. winston secondary is borderline irrelevant because the damage it deals is so insignificant that it only matters if winston is going to jump immediately. zarya secondary is well made because it has high damage output at range, is full damage aoe and doesnt disrrupt gameplay and balls primary fire is the only reason the character can have its playstyle, no guns means no kills or effective disruption which means ball is useless. orisas primary is only overpowered when its close range and not when its long range, meaning its not good at ranged pressure. hog hook is literally the only ability here you have gotten right.
The 6v6 argument is getting out of hand. Content is getting recycled without any good 5v5 discussions being made. I love 5v5 because it feels like you as an individual have a more valuable impact on the game rather than a moba team comp synergy carrying your force. Ow1 ( at high diamond low masters) felt like a tank synergy first then a dps clean up second.
Assuming you weren’t a tracer, widow, or hanzo god, you didn’t have much impact in breaking that immovable wall the tanks created. If your team’s 2 tanks didn’t coordinate well then the team that did have synergy was favored. Much like the counter swap meta we see today. However, the power has been shifted to the supports to win more duels and dps to hit those clutch last shot kills to open up the fight.
We gutted tanks in 5v5 and honestly this video nor does any other argument make any good points stating 5v5 is a good format for tanks. But for the other 80% of the lobby they get to have more fun and impact.
Very wise video :)
I legit don’t know why we just don’t put a timeout on the hero swaps once you leave spawn.
You picked Zarya? Well, you’re going to play her for the next 3 minutes and learn how to play her instead of counterswapping and being mid at all the heroes at best.
This would solve the counterswapping issue so easily, we wouldn’t need no hero ban system and onetricks could still enjoy the game (or at least way more)
no because the underlying issue is still the exact same. lets take rock paper scissors for example. now instead of being able to swap to rock to counter their scissors, ur now just stuck as paper for 3 minutes straight.
@@neekz1031 no, because no one is able to counterswap. Let’s say you picked Cassidy at the start of the round, the enemy plays Rein and you got rolled. For a lot of the player base that means to immediately swap to Bastion and melt the Reinhardt. But wait, now you can’t do that for a certain amount of time so you have to adjust how you play and do something different
@@AntivenomOW I guess it's not a terrible point, but it would just feel kinda weird not being able to swap, it's already infuriating enough not being able to swap because of Echo's ult for like 10 SECONDS lmao
what if you switch to the wrong hero by accident? guess your screwed then and what if they have pocket pharah and so they just roll first point and maybe even second point because you cant switch to a hitscan dps, the system could be abused so easily which is the problem
@@Glizzyman The timeout would only come into effect once you leave spawn… And how is not being able to counterswap abusing the system? In my opinion immediately counterswapping cause you’re bad is abusing the system
nah
I tried to understand your argument but your hero rework argument essentially homogenizes heroes, which is the other fundamental problem with 5v5. With 6v6 you had more flexibility while maintaining uniqueness in hero design. Also when you get to a point where you need to give random shit like speed boosts to zarya, I think that should be indicative of bad design.
You cant balance 5v5 without homogenizing everything which kills the soul of the game
well... one game got game of the year and one is not even close lets use the format that got game of the year maybe?
What 99.9% of conten creators do not understand: Issues like this do not exist in the lower ranks like plat, gold, silver etc. and therefore it does not affect 85% of the playerbase. Most of the time OW content creators are arguing about problems that most player will never encounter.
Hero picking below diamond work like this: "I want to play Genji", "I want tio play Reinhardt", "I want to play Ana".
Everytime i play rein the enemy tank suddenly wants to play Oriya after first fight. in gold/plat, this is definitely a problem for a large part of the community
I hella disagree idk where this idea that low ranks don’t counterswap or play what’s meta but it’s just wrong. I play in the low ranks and I get counterswapped almost every other game. I face meta heroes like mauga or hog all the time. I tend to play what I enjoy, but I can’t say I don’t play the good heroes I enjoy. I just don’t really play rein anymore even tho I love him because he’s fucking trash. It’s also not like I can’t win with rein but all it takes is a swap or two to make the game much harder for me and not the enemy team.
You're probably referring to Bronze to Sliver because Gold to Plat as soon as I win one fight as Winston they pull out Dva, Reaper, and Bastion. If anything lower rank players are more likely for an entire team to counterswap a tank. Only times Ive seen GM lobbies do that much swapping is 1. If they are 5 stackung 2. The winning team has a Mauga or hog. Most other games people stay commited to their character unless they get bullied off of them in some way. In higher ranks its way easier for the tank to counterswap comparatively to the rest of the team.
I’m plat and if I pop off as reign instant Mei, orisa, Mauga, ram picks next fight ? Pop off in dva ? Definitely facing a zarya next fight. All they do it gold and plat is counter swap u idiot. Every single game. Why u lying ?
Idk I personally find solo tank more fun
counterswapping is real, but counterplay should be too.
This a horrible take, theres a reason why so many of the tanks if not all in the future are getting reworked. Orisa and hog already got theirs, therye doing a ball rework next season, like if you cant see that 5v5 IS the problem then idk what else i can say, 5v5 is making them change so many of the tanks
Dude, counterattack didn't exist in ow1, it exist evey stupid game in ow1, I literally can't play who I want
did you play doom into hog orisa mauga sombra cree ana zen ... dude telling doom has no counters, wtf is he smoking. give me 6v6 and give me dps doom that the whole team can fuck themself cry to counterswap enemy tank. ow 2 tanking is miserable, ow 1 was way better.
Hear me out... Hog should be a support hero, it would allow you to have a tank with actual utility and make hog not having too much sustain or one shot consistency easier to balance and you could just support your tank by hooking people into your team
Hell no
they just need a little balance among tanks. tanks are the most unbalanced they've ever been.
@@i_fuze_hostages6think about it, pre role queue your flex support would swap to hog in pro play because that's the role hog fulfilled, why not just make him a support character?
@@FindMe04hog can't be balanced because if he can't one shot he sucks and if he can't face tank a dva bomb he is too squishy as a solo tank
@@mayo0006 he is there to open the fight and bust the fuck out of easy targets not exactly a support thing
Sam has gone boomer. His content is still entirely surface level. In conclusion, this is all worthless and enjoy the game. I enjoy kajor keep it up
Also if your basing your gameplay off Sam’s and flats enjoy your current rank
both bad
we need ow3 4v4 already its getting stale
I’m convinced bro doesn’t actually play overwatch with these braindead takes 💀
Samito is wrong quite often.
He’s actually changed my perspective on quite a few things, I don’t agree that we should go back to 6v6 tho
SMH, Samito is one of the biggest CRYBABIES. Sam rather blame his teammates or game creators than take responsibility for getting outplayed!
@@k24kai06it’s a RUclips comment, not a doctoral thesis. It doesn’t need to have value 😂
What rank are you bro
nice ad hominem
L
I think tank synergy is the best argument for bringing 6v6 back but knowing the current playerbase there would be way too many one-sided games because one team is running double shield, Rein Zarya, or two dive tanks while the other team is running Hog and Ball. When we have these rock, paper, scissors metas I'm just surprised to see competitive OW have any variety of composition at all. It's a balance issue because team 4 likes to overbuff a few heroes at a time.
What a terrible take. I don't want to play CS with generic hero abilities (VALORANT ANYONE). Unique heroes is the ENTIRE appeal of OW. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.