Chinese Type 50 PPSh: Founding “Gun City” in Manchuria
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- Опубликовано: 10 июн 2024
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One of the first new weapons adapted and used by the Chinese Peoples’ Liberation Army after the Communist victory in the Chinese civil war was the Type 50, a copy of the Soviet PPSh-41. The story of its manufacture begins at the Japanese occupied Mukden Arsenal. It was briefly occupied by the Soviets in 1945 before coming under control of the CCP. It was a huge manufacturing complex at the time, making artillery, small arms, ammunition, and more. A Nationalist bombing raid in 1949 led to the production being distributed among three separate smaller facilities, and the small remote town of Bei’an was chosen to become the new small arms factory site.
The town became so heavily focused on weapons manufacture that it gained the nickname of “Gun City”. The factory was formally named #626, and given the cover name of Qinghua Tool Company. It initially began with production of the Type 38 Arisaka, Type 24 Mauser (the Chiang Kai Shek rifle), the M1 Carbine (a failed project), and the Type 50 copy of the PPSh. In the spring of 1951 in response to UN advances northward in Korea, production was ordered to scale up on the Type 50, to 7500-9000 per month. This took a couple months to achieve, but in June 1951 the first large shipment of the guns left the factory, and by December 1953 a total of 358,000 had been made. At that point, production shifted to the Type 54, a copy of the PPS-43.
The Type 50 is a close copy of the Russian Shpagin, but differs in a couple details. The Chinese used a rear aperture sight, and the sights were placed slightly farther forward than on Russian guns. They are also generally very well made - better than most Russia wartime examples.
For many more cool small arms stories, check out WWII After WWII:
wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com
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www.floatplane.com/channel/For...
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For those wondering ww2 after ww2 is still being regularly updated, the latest post was from 25th of March 2024
Yep. Active!
I love that website, when I saw gun city in the title I wondered if that was the source for this video.
What about the other one, ww2 before ww2, mentioned at the end?
Yep, seems to put out one essay a month.
Hey, do you happen to know how one can contact the author for that blog?
I am a historian, currently researching Chinese firearms from the 1950's (including the type-50) and would like to discuss some findings with him and the information in his blog
My grandpa told me about the Chinese "Tommy Gun" he captured in Korea. I assumed this is what he was talking about. He said he regretted not bringing it home with him.
Could be a Taiyuan or Szechuan Arsenal copy of a M1921 Thompson!
we also gave Chinese "Thompsons", tanks, aircraft, boats, and lots of, fuel, training. One of mine may have been a Flying Tiger, another Air America, maybe FedX? not "Taiwan" FORMOSA!
One thing i miss about the good ol days was the end of the month auction sold price list. Was always interesting seeing what items like this would go for
If it's a transferable, the sky is the limit on this one...
I hadn't thought about that in a long time,yeah I was really interested in seeing what some firearms sold for at auction.
One thing i miss is subs with wood furniture
There’s nothing stopping you looking it up on the auction site 🤷♂️
@@alangordon3283 the gun MIGHT already be gone, I'm not sure he uploads in order of recording anymore
Over 300,000 guns in just a few years is impressive, especially considering they weren't going full force like if they had been at war.
China wasn’t being bombed
I’ve always loved the look of the PPSh in all its versions. This is especially fascinating!
My second favorite smg in ww2. The pps43 is my top. The mp40 is nice but something about a stamped factory gun that looks like a school project gets me.
Those things are heavier than you might think, too. I recall holding one, briefly, at a gun show about thirty years ago.
When I held PPSh, I was surprised it felt lighter than I expected
also, it was smaller in hands than it looked on photos, but the egonomy was awesome
Always interesting to see the differences between Chinese copies and the originals
back when Chinese copies were 'decent to good' quality.
nowadays you look at their copies (of most things) and its good from distance, but utter crap when you look under hood.
IE Land Wind (rip of a Range Rover SUV). Looks like a great copy, but engine is POS, electronics suck, stitching is bad, no safety testing etc.
THEN again. this was era where the gun was just 'bend/stamped' sheet metal + wood. Originally designed so Joe soviet w/ no education could mass produce em in soviet factories...so i guess making decent PPsh/Norinco's SKS clones isn't exactly too high a bar too.
@@djdrack4681well increased consolidation and corporatization generally saps creativity or ingenuity out of whatever creators are making, humble artisan vs souless cash grabbing company etc
@@djdrack4681tbf Chinese firearm copies from that period forward are good to go. I knew a gentleman who lived in the Middle East who owned a Norinco nade AR-15 that was essentially a semi only M4 (chrome lined barrel, H2 buffer) and it was by all accounts a fantastic gun
@@Snougaloogie Was just going to say the same thing, Chinese knockoffs are often not a great sign of quality but when it comes to firearms they're honestly very good, sometimes even better than the original.
@@DeanmC261993 greed. that is why commercial airline industry is super sh1t. there are (in 'West') only 2: Boeing and Airbus; there a few smaller ones (I think Antonov for former Easter block); but yeah no creativity/competition/innovation...
Gun City has a nice ring to it.
Thought the same thing, Gun City sounds wild. Would book a hotel there if I could.
'Significant emotional event'
LOL
So very true.
(c) Lt. Col. Nicholas Moran
Seems like drum mags always sound better on paper than in practice. I wonder if the same goes with helical mags, leading to the Bizon getting replaced by the Vityaz.
Yup. All the issues with drums are magnified in helical mags.
On the local shooting range, the PPsH they have there, works perfectly with its drum mag and jams every time, they try to fire it with the box magazine.
@@ForgottenWeaponsand in turn made it that moving forward, if a gun has an option for extended mags, its always just a longer stick mag.
@@michailpanchev9952 Sounds like peak PPSh to me; the particular stick mag they have probably doesn't match quite as well. Then again, how much money is a gun range going to throw into the bottomless pit of finding the goldilocks stick mag for 1 gun when they have the more iconic option function great.
You know, both in video games or in real life this gun is very fun to shoot and the fact both also fitted with drum mag instead of stick mag just icing the cake
Mukden, sometimes also known as Hoten, was also the site of a large POW camp where many Allied prisoners were forced to work. Not, so far as I can tell, in the arsenal. Mostly aircraft parts. Fascinating stories from there.
Mukden and Hoten are the same characters just read in Manchu and Japanese respectfully. Same with Incheon and Jinsen.
My great uncle ended up there from the Bataan Death March. Sabotaged engines and got a medal for it.
@@arisukak Not quite: Mukden is the Manchu name which was translated to Chinese as 盛京 'Shengjing', Prosperous Capital. Hoten (Japanese) and Fengtian (Mandarin) are the same characters, 奉天, which translates to 'obeying Heaven' because it was the city where the Manchus first claimed the imperial title. Not the same name.
@@Dominic1962 I hope you've had a chance to read the diary kept by a Major Peaty. He had a hand written diary that he had transcribed/typed up immediately after the Red Army came along to liberate them. Such stories.....
@@Dominic1962 It’s crazy that he made it(thank god) because that area was where they were conducting human experiments on people. Manchuria was a death sentence for anyone not Japanese during WW2. After “liberation” the Soviets also subjected the population to a series of violence both physical and sexual. Yikes.
The tweaks like the rear aperture sight add a unique touch to this iconic weapon.
I always surprised when I read the type 50 couldn’t use drums but then I realised the Thompson M1 got deleted the drum feature it so just accepted it as fact. How did the US get that wrong.. surely they must have captured some with drums. Another Korean War gun myth to go along with the SKS and m1 carbine penetration
Probaly they have tried to use the drums with the guns that they didnt fit, so they assumed that the drums were for another weapon...
To be fair to the M1 myth a lot of the more well equipped Communist forces would have had early manufactured AKs.
Those slab sided Ak mags were particularly tough . And when fully loaded I could see .30 cal struggling to punch through them.
And given how particularly popular chest rigs were becoming ...Well you get a couple GIs who run into them and stuff starts spreading ya dig.
@@clothar23 Had more to do with thick winter clothes hiding blood and the Chinese/North Koreans all allegedly being out their minds on drugs just not feeling being shot
@@clothar23 There were no AKs in the Korean War. He first time the Soviets showed off the rifle was during the Hungarian Revolution. Chinese troops did commonly wear Type 50 mags in chest rigs. They invented that type of rig in the 1940s.
@@clothar23The US didn’t know about the existence of the AK and SKS until 1956
I remember an episode of "MASH" where to North Korean soldiers were shown carrying these, probably represented by Russian examples.
That really was a great show.
They called them Russian "Burp Guns"....they fire 30 rounds per second. That is what i remember.
@JR9979 I think they turned into gag, Radar was like "They shoot 30 corporals a second!"
@@beaker126is that the one where Burns hold out is a little bitty gun and they laugh at him?
@@hurricane567 It might be. I remember that one too.
5:59 Ian’s been spending too much time around the chieftan!
Or not enough, depending on your perspective 😉
@@DiggingForFacts 😂😂
This has to be the earliest ive ever caught a video, much less a Forgotten Weapons video. Cheers lads
In my home of Oklahoma City, there's a museum for the 45th Infantry Division. One of the coolest exhibits they have is a Korean War-captured Type 50, with its drum mag and bolt welded in place, that is attached by chain to a plinth. Those suckers are dense! They feel real substantial in the hand. I love the PPSh unironically -- any gun with an ROF that high will always have a place in my heart.
I was thinking about that WW2afterWW2 blog article too. This is a fantastic blog. And neither defunct nor only about Small Arms. Lots of articles dealing with naval matters especially
thanks for the deep dive Ian.
Great vid, as always. Especially interesting to hear mention of Mukden, since I'm currently living in Shenyang. I've never heard of Bei'an (Gun City), but I'll definitely ask around and I'm sure I'll find it without much difficulty. Lots of history both ancient and more recent in this part of the world. Lots of love from an Irishman in China.
Nowaday, The Factory 626 has shut down and closed in 2006, became gun museum. If you have a free time, you could visit that 626 museum.
@@mcmillantac3369 Wow! I will definitely pay a visit as soon as possible, there's bound to be lots of interesting exhibits! Thanks for the info!
One of the top sub guns ever made.
Great video! Thanks for the content! And I love how there are just 2 chauchats in the background lol
Always love your videos Ian! Hoping to get to meet you when I go to Shot Show next year! Had to sit it out this year.
Like 7.62x 25.
Was ahead of its time.
Is one of those cartridges floatin on the fringe like .357 sig that goes more velocity than mass in practice.
Like that in no small part due to p.s.a., 5.7x28 is becoming more available.
The 7.62x25 tokarev round kinda specs keep poppin up time to time, like the .30 supercarry or .327 mag.
Haha
Or .30 carbine.
Where a zippy .30 just aint bad compared to a slower 9 or .45 at range.
Dont get me wrong.
I like em big too.
But sometimes flat is where its at.
You got a long strong even trajectory and that kinda shootin can be pretty hot as well with a carbine or even with a pistol.
My modded g40 10mm handgun, can hit as hard as a m1 carbine or on hotter loads +that, at the same range with higher velocity solid copper rounds out of a 6.5 inch barrel.
Never tested any spicy handloads and aint gonna outta my g40.
Underwood and buffalobore ammo are caliente enough for the frame I figure and aint gonna push it 👍
Awesome thanks Ian
Wow, I just happen to own a factory 626 SKS.
Me too.
Me three
I don't. :(
@@jmjedi923 then I understand the sad face. They may soon prove to be very useful.
i.e. the most common SKS
626 made like.. 90% of 1950's Chinese firearms
I wasn’t expecting a history lesson, but thanks for the explanation.
Cool history!!!
I have been watching your videos for about nine years, thank you. I still find your videos interesting and entertaining. The next time you come to Finland (hopefully) there is an interesting winter war museum in Suomussalmi.
Thank s
Wow, appreciate Ian rocking the marathon watch
a great very interesting video and pcc Mr.GJ.have a good one.
Good video.
I miss the final prices videos of the auctions.
Think YT wet their panties over it.
So this is what Aldo Ray's character was trying to allude to in The Green Beret's when he held up a PPSh and called it a "Chee-Kom K50"
You tell a good tale
When I was in Iraq, we found tons of stuff like that. There were two train box cars full of small arms up next to our armory. I mean everything from 1850's revolvers to Browning Goose guns, WW1, WWII, and the cold war. Every make and model. Even put a Sweedish K, on the wall in the COC. It was incredible.
I really wonder why they seemed to choose to replicate all the same mistakes instead of skipping a few or going straight to the PPS-43
Information travelled a lot slower back then, and setting up a line-tooling has never been fast.
They probably didn't understand why the Soviets made the changes to production - without the experience of actually making and using the guns a drum mag probably seemed better than a stick and a PPSh looked worth the effort of making over a PPS43 - until you're in a war and it turns out not to be the case
I am amazed that you have made a career out of this. But I do enjoy watching your videos. Well done.
Friend of mine has a NHM 91 from the 626 factory!
Ian you have opened my eyes to the artistry behind small arms! Thanks for building such an accessible recourse.
LETS GOOO NEW VIDEO
Thanks Ian. That was interesting.
A few things about China and Japan
_China At War_ by Hans van de Ven is an excellent book on the title subject and is available on Amazon.
Japan had decided that the way to avoid becoming a Colony - was to become a Colonial Power.
They occupied Taiwan and Manchuria.
China had been controlled by the War Lords after the Central Government lost power at the turn of the century and local military commanders and bandits had come to rule.
Sun Yat-sen - China's George Washington - had founded the Whampoa Military Academy in Canton to take back China from the War Lords. The Communists and Nationalists worked together under Sun. The cadets of this academy launched _"The Northern Expedition"_ in about 1925. Unfortunately Sun died of Cancer and Chiang Kai-shek took over.
At first they defeated and dismembered War Lord Armies but ran out of Cadets to run them - so - they began accepting defeated War Lord Armies into their own - commanded by the War Lords - who largely kept their provinces - just now under the Nationalists. Most of the War Lords came to terms with the Nationalists and they theoretically ruled China.
Chiang turned on the Communists - a book on that is _"Man's Fate"_ by André Malraux.
The Nationalists drove the Communists back into Yenan after the long march.
Manchuria had been controlled by the War Lord know as _"The Old Marshall"_ . The Japanese blew up his train, killed him and drove his Army - under _"The Young Marshall" out of Manchuria.
Here Chiang wanted The Young Marshall to attack the Communists but they were fraternizing with his troops - _"Why fight each other? We should be fighting the Japanese."_
Chiang went up there to make the Young Marshall attack the Communists but he arrested Chiang and turned him over to the Communists. They struck a deal - the Communists would let him go and he would stop attacking them.
The Communists wanted to defeat the Nationalists but were not strong enough to do it. So - the wanted the Japanese to do it for them. They infiltrated a Nationalist Patrol and then fired on a Japanese Patrol. Long story short - this started WWII in the Summer of 1937 (yes - not 9/1/39) at the Marco Polo Bridge Incident.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_Bridge_incident
Russia invaded Manchuria after the bombs were dropped. The Kwantung Army surrendered to them when Japan Surrendered. The Russians then matched up a Communist Unit with a Japanese Unit and had the Japanese turn over all it's weapons and equipment to the Communist unit - as well as anyone needed to use or maintain the equipment. This was the Army that they supplied and which won the Civil War against the Nationalists.
Truman - because the Nationalists were corrupt - termed aid to the Nationalists as _"Sand down a Rat Hole."_ cut off their supplies and they lost to the Communists.
The Americans abandoned China to the Communists and in addition to the millions of people the Communists killed on purpose - in about 1959 - they killed between 15 and 55 million people by accident.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
The Americans would then off course - abandon Vietnam and Southeast Asia to the Communists and millions more would die.
Trump signed a Separate Treaty with the Taliban - abandoning all in Afghanistan who had fought for us - and Biden carried it out - but I have no figures on how many people died because of this American Betrayal.
As a Child I was proud to be an American - and served in the Marines. I'm proud of the American Military - but not America. The biggest lie Ronald Reagan told the Americans was that they were "Good People". They weren't. Good People don't abandon their allies.
.
Excellent post. Wish I could do as well. Sun-Yat-Sen spend time on Maui, and we have a small park & statue dedicated to him....I wanted to save this post, but can't print it out by itself....
America is indeed a rather fickle ally, very like to abandon allies when it is inconvenient to continue to support them....The media very much drives this process. The NYT star reporter winning a Nobel shilling for Stalin, even as he murdered millions of his own people. Doing the same for Castro, even as he would literally drain the life's-blood of political enemies prior to their execution.
The irony of a white Cuban lawyer overthrowing a black government, subsequently filling the prisons with black political prisoners, and hosting the Congressional Black Caucus appears to have escaped the media...
I well remember the media stories regarding the Shah and the Savak, about the torture of domestic enemies.
Of course, after we abandoned the Shah, and the real killing started, continuing to this day, the media found other interests to rant about. President Trump, for one. Same thing with our war in Vietnam. Once the North had conquered the South, and the cleanup of Southerners commenced, with ' re-education camps ' and thousands fleeing toward Thailand, media disinterest followed....
Early PRC arsenals like 626 and 296 would also have their second digit taken out in some arsenal stamps. So 626 would have a "triangle 66" stamp and 296 would have a "triangle 26" stamp.
Arsenal 626 also has its own small arms museum, even long after it has closed down. There's a Type 54 (TT-33) commemorative plaque there, complete with the triangle 66 emblem.
What is that little loop next to the feed lips on the drum magazine for? I noticed that the suomi drum mags have the same thing.
For a lanyard on the magazine.
A testament to innovation in the midst of conflict
so could you theoretically do a type of slap off safety for the PPSh?
So ppsh temu version is surprisingly ok
Underrated comment 😂
I've always liked these things.
I had a Walther PPK model marked "626"
Finally! ❤🎉
Ww2 after ww2 is still updated, just a long wait sometimes. They’re long (and informative) articles!
There is no way you can't like this guy
It's very interesting to see some backstory of the Type 50, the Chinese-made copy of the PPSH, one of the best submachine guns of World War 2. I'm glad you got to see one that is in perfect shape since most Chinese guns are usually found in very poor conditions.
Frick yeah early gang reporting for duty
Oh no! I'm late reporting for the early gang. Dammit!!
Salute!
🏅🍪
KISS, in an excellent caliber.
Ian automatically gets a bonus for pronouncing Beijing correctly. You'd be amazed how many people online somehow think it's "Beizhing".
That balances out his mispronunciation of Bei'an (it's pronounced "bay-ann", for the record)
And Pedderson for Pederson.
The bane of David Hackworth
Does the type 50 have the same issues with fit n finish of the magazines?
You ran into that trouble with the PPSH.
One of the best sub guns of the old world!
Would that be the same place as my factory 26 sks?
Giggity
"on the hole"
12:58 Yeah, I was wondering about that when you showed them side-by-side. Whether the Russian PPSh was actually cruder in manufacture than the Chinese Type 50, or if that was just a somewhat beat-up PPSh example that you had on hand.
Muckden arsenal? Did the invent that bastardization of the 98 Mauser and Arisaka Type 38, sometimes known as manchuko Mauser s?
as expected from you... excellent. QUESTION: Why did they stop producing? What was the major flaw?
They switched to the Type 54, which was simpler and cheaper to make.
... all I have to say is this; Stitch's real name (from the movie "Lilo & Stitch") is 'Experiment 626'...
This pleases my firearmtism
My character has one in "Vigor"... great gun. Video games are more fun when you have a gun!
I never drew the connection to the Mukden arsenal thanks for that. I have some old Arisaka bayonets stamped from Mukden. Although comparing the Japanese invasion of Manchuria to the Russian annexation of Crimea is a bit disingenuous.
In respect of your Ukraine comment, quite right. Thanks !
so is the "evacuation to Taiwan", the KMT were quite literally colonizers all the same, and so brutal that some considered them worse than the Japanese had been!
@@afwae3wefazsggeawg Good Point. The Reds didn't appear out of nowhere. They were a reaction to circumstances not all of Japanese origins. However the KMT were America's favourite and still are expected to spearhead the "crusade" against Marxist inspired movements. Thank for speaking out on this .
@@afwae3wefazsggeawg This is actually really important too, I'm actually impressed that people know this and are pointing it out kudos to you.
I've been wondering, in blowback and delayed blowback weapons did anyone make the buffer part of the bolt instead of part of the receiver? It seems to me it would have the same effect, but would also add mass to the bolt.
This seems to be part of a common trend of the Chinese taking Soviet and Russian designs and just making them better.
Debatable. They make certain tradeoffs to suit their needs and manufacturing abilities. There is no significant difference in the quality between Soviet or Communist Chinese weapons when comparing them in peace time.
@@jordanandrew2786 After Soviet became Russia, now that's a different story.
"Significant Emotional Event" 🤣🤣🤣
Great Video as always. Seems the ejection port on the chinese PPSh 50 is round and not as square as on the russian PPSH 41. See 10:30 in the video.
Yep, I overlooked mentioning it specifically
@@ForgottenWeapons May I suggest to add this "difference" between Chinese and Russian PPSh to the description (text).
Receiver looks like it was formed around a mandrel with a ball peen hammer.
We found an old one a while back that had been utilizing a wine cork buffer.
Was that used during the Vietnam wars (vs France and vs USA)? Greetings from Patagonia Argentina
Lets be real, nobody except Ian recognizes the 626 haha
The Type 50 was nicknamed the "Burp Gun" by American soldiers fighting against the Chinese during the Korean War. The Chinese would arm massive amounts of soldiers with these and use human waves at close range tactics to very deadly use. I've talked to a American Korean war vet and he said that the burp gun was a major threat because they were so common. He actually was surprised by the amount of different types of guns the Chinese actually had. Everything from Japanese American British Soviet and even some German guns were in Chinese use. Alot of these guns would end up in Vietnam afterwards.
The Type 50s were also nicknamed "Mao's Banjos" from the Korean War as well.
@@yardslammer009kennedy2Very cool, never heard that before..
That was also the nickname of the German MP40 during the previous conflict.
I do t think those human waves were actually a thing.
I never understand why countries would arm their armies with weapons from different nations, like I can't imagine being a poor Chinese conscript being given the wrong ammo for your gun, or the headache of being an armorer and trying to fix guns from 4 different nations
The shpagin machine pistol is phonetically abbreviated as Peh, Peh, Sha. Pistolet, pulemet, Shpagina.
For some reason I heard “blog” as “podcast” and got really excited at something that esoteric to listen to 😩 suffice it to say I was most disappointed 😂
ejector ports are also different...
How much you wanna bet the Chauchat LMGs in the background found their way into Ian's luggage
"A significant emotional event" I see what you did there
weren't these the guns that the GI's called the "burp" gun?
Yep.
you workin out Ian? I can tell man, keep it up
My first thought was all the $300 56s that came with a case of ammo in the 80s to 90 or 91.
Nice burp gun
I find that it is common for the Chinese to make even better versions of Russian designs then the Russians. That follows true for many other designs, including AKs, SKS, and the TT-33.
The difference is the stock, because the Chinese copy uses recycled Arisaka stocks.
"Significant emotional event"
I see what you did there.
😁
Ian has been spending time around Nick Moran. Lol
Factory 626 was overseen by stitch
WWII after WWII isn't defunct! They just released a new entry on the 25th!
I always just assumed that the Soviets shared their patterns with the Chinese. Interesting to learn that they “found a copy of the plans” or reverse engineered the design.
I wonder if the Chieftain has "Significant Emotional Event" trademarked...
Here we have the Chinese rendition of the famed Russian "bullet hose". For sheer speed of magazine emptying, not even the Thompson SMG could hold a candle to this bugger. The Czech Skporpion might equal it but I just don't know.
Can confirm, Škorpion is fast on the mag dump, yes. I carried one as a PDW in Africa and have a lot of love for them.
@@marvindebot3264 Thanx for the info!
I allways thourght that 626 was a Mazda...
Not sure if the body is amazingly thin or if the magazines just ludicrously long. Probably both.
The Chinese gun seems a little bit better made
It always surprises me to see how rough soviet small arms look. I understand that they function fine, but they had little to no pride taken in the finishing process. On that note, I would love to have seen what the Swiss would have done with this design
Papa shah asian fusion edition