Hey Sam, all your content-this video especially-has been putting words to and externalising my own internal thoughts and struggles with Church culture at the moment. Thank you for making these videos! I’ve got experience in the “worship world/industry” and actually spent my whole childhood and teen years idolising worship musicians, ministries, and that lifestyle in general. I glamorised it so much and became obsessive about finding the next best thing, almost like a worship music hipster-gatekeeping songs and always asking people, “Have you heard of _____?” I just wanted so badly to be part of it, similar to how “regular” musician might dream of becoming famous one day. One thing I don’t think you touched on as much, though, is how Church culture can add layers of complication through encouragement, prophecy, and discipleship. These often create such a strong sense of hope, purpose, and calling that it feels like there’s no alternative path. I think you touched on this in your video about prophecy and words of encouragement, I’m just commenting on, from experience I guess, in how that plays into worship culture too. I pursued it as hard as I could, but as I started to realise it wasn’t going to “happen” for me, my sense of self-worth, purpose, and calling took a huge hit-one I don’t think I’ve ever fully recovered from. Interestingly, now that I’m on the outside of that culture, I find myself questioning just how ethical or genuine any of it really is!
hey - thanks for subscribing. 'Worship culture' as a term is worth a thought generally - it's bizarre it has become it's own subculture within a subculture of a wider subculture!
@@mrmarkporter I think for me, music and art in general should be an opportunity for personal or collective freedom of creativity and expression... whereas music in churches is often controlled, curtailed, redacted, becomes formulaic etc, unwittingly serves the purposes of those in leadership rather than being a genuine and authentic response to the Holy Spirit (whatever that may mean or look like). We don't acknowledge the power of music for good or for ill. I have engaged and disengaged in musical worship over the years for these reasons. As you mentioned, we don't need to get rid of musical worship, we just need to be careful, considerate, responsive and reflective in how we do it. That's why it is so great that you are giving considerable thought to it - so thank you and keep up the good work.
@@tjminstrel Most of my work there was with so-called "emerging church" communities. Within that movement I don't think there was ever much of a unified approach, but there's a bit of a tendency towards more-ambient musics, the idea of music as something which creates space and gives you the option to resonate with something or not to resonate without the pressure to feel a particular way. Some communities go down a route which emphasises the different contributions of different members, some mix up the musics they do so that no single dynamics has the chance to dominate, it really varies massively.
I'm not too sure how this came up on my YT timeline, but very happy it did. This is a great conversation that many are having silos but may cot have the tools to covey as it was done here. From a cultural perspective, the worship experience is very nuanced but overall the music should enhance our everyday reality as children of God.
The flute player being asked to stop playing on a previous episode was heart breaking. We endure this obedience to tolerate and appease the people of the world on a daily basis. When musicians finally get to express our love for God in a meaningful way, we are then told to tone our style down and ham it up for the Mariah Carey moments. This sounds like a passive aggressive statement, but as a folk guitarist at heart, it's just the truth of my experience.
HI from New Zealand , i watch a very interesting set up in a church here, the pastor is in his early 70s and his oldest son is a guitar player , he spends a LOT of time watching other churches in America , The change of music all comes from him they even have pedal practice meeting with very very young new Christian musicians . Ive been to big churches in America and you would definitely think you were in one of their meetings . I believe set ups and changes do come by one person Copying others to their liking . It definitely does get boring and same old same old , There are people in front of them WITH AMAZING gifts just sitting WAITING for an opportunity to use their gifts , ive noticed over the years you have to be liked by leaders to get a chance to be used ,In my work life it was ALWAYS the wrong people who moved on and the people saying all the right things stayed and often not that productive , thankyou for opening this up Sam and talking , its important , God bless you and your family . Im 72 and been saved 50 years and boy do we need change . Unfortunately no music with many == means a bad service and many will stop going to church Very sad ,
Rebuke them for Engaging in False Worship, point out that it is the Strange Fire SIN for Which Nadab and Abihu were Slain, and unless they Repent and return to Exclusive Psalmody, or at the very least Traditional Reformed Hymns with a Traditional Pipe Organ, Rebuke them for Witchcraft and Apostasy and leave that "church" to never Return!
Decisions, collective or otherwise to change worship styles often have significant impact, for those musicians affected which can impact value, self-perception, emotional and spiritual wellbeing, especially as volunteers (in UK and other contexts). Within Mark’s book, there’s reference to R.M Schaefer’s work on soundscapes and I have wondered if moves to more popular-music technology-mediated worship styles is an equivalent to boosting the noisefloor, perhaps at the expense of those who find themselves at the masked and quieter margins. Adopting elements of Schaefer’s sonic and ecological practices would mean that more musicians could be heard (and valued), diversity of experience celebrated, and less homogeneity. Just a thought. Really interesting and thought-provoking video; stumbled across by accident, and have now subscribed :)
hey thanks David - great to hear from you. The noise floor is a really interesting observation. It makes me think when I've rehearsed with rock bands in the past, the earplugs go in and each of us gradually turns the amp up and up, and the snare becomes a rimshot. You stop listening to one another and the whole thing becomes a fight of volume rather than giving one another space and 'Selah'. Using your analogy, I wonder where the space in the music is in current heavy plectrum led guitar songs? MTV's response to grunge was the Unplugged series - which became huge. Thanks for subscribing :)
In 2025, I definitely want to redevelop my Flute playing. Give me more Hymns! Not the Hillsong type material.... And, a place for my "Punk Rock" guitar and bass. 😂❤❤
As in so many aspects of being the Body of Christ, the church today is completely misguided regarding the subject of worshipping God in spirit and truth. It has become spellbound by “star” musicians and their commercial wares, believing that this is what is needed by churches. No. What is needed is a discerning exercising of spiritual gifts by Christians within each local church - INCLUDING the gifting to facilitate praise and worship in the way God enables them to. This can be as broad and creative as God enables. It can entail the writing of, and use of, music and song - as God enables. Instead, we reach for off-the-shelf solutions. And we all end up living and looking as blandly and unimaginatively as each other as a result. The commercialisation of “worship music” internationally is a travesty, and a distortion of all that God calls us to in authentically living out the gospel in our communities, as diverse as they all are.
yes, I think you're highlighting two aspects here... commercialisation, I'd agree is rubbish. But star musicians is debatable - there is real value in gifting, and someone with real ability, practiced and focussed, can't they add value?
@ One’s spiritual gifting is for the building up of the local church, not to be turned into an international business. It’s time for Christians, wherever they may be, to use their gifting in the serving and growth of the local church, however God enables.
@@superman00001 But what does it mean to be "local" when many of us are leading highly-networked and mobile lives? Our sense of how we belong to international networks and communities sits alongside the way we belong in a specific location. We can choose to emphasise the local as our main focus or priority, but I don't think we can escape the fact that none of our communities are completely bounded and separated from those broader connections.
@@mrmarkporter Many of us have wider connections than the local community, but I maintain that what matters most for the church is being an authentic, Spirit-led expression of the Body of Christ as a local community in the midst of the unreached local people who surround us - with all their diverse needs, questions, hurts, wounds and longings. The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. Like a grain of yeast. If that means not singing songs penned by California-based Matt Redman or the like, then great! If that means we don’t sing at all but instead use a Psalm or a painting or a piece of classical music or a sculpture or a dance or a couple of Coke cans banged together as an expression of corporate worship, then great! Let us trust God to use and multiply what we have with us already, and which he enables, in the groups in which we sit, and not lazily gorge at the fast food counter of the international “worship industry” which lines the pockets of a very few songwriters. Songwriters who, in very many cases, write low quality songs (both lyrically, theologically and musically) which inaccurately are lauded as “the best on offer”. This message urgently needs to be proclaimed in the ears of a sleeping, lazy, worldly church.
I’ve been involved in worship through music now for 25 years. I remember back mid 90’s something significant emerged where a whole generation of young adults felt inspired to take their music outside of the walls of the church . I think during this time , the lines between worship and performance got very blury. I can honestly say very good people with good intentions sort to bridge the gap between the sacred and the secular . I know of song writers who started out writing songs with God being the focal audience , to a shift of trying to write music that would attempt to include an audience that weren’t believers . I think in many cases , no one did well out of this . I’ve also worked along side some of the big modern pentecostal churches. I’ve seen clear hierarchy dictating everything that happens in a meeting, including what the music sounds like and the environment that is created to facilitate it. I know that in some cases. Musicians have to play exactly an agreed format of parts and sounds . So they can drop into multiples of set bands . I’ve seen this in the industry with professional tribute bands. When you look at the big shows like Coldplay/ U2. The environment plays a huge part in how music is received and engaged with. Dark rooms, lights, smoke , synth pads and whale like guitar tones are very emotive . I think it’s also apparent that what people look like is important. Rather an unspoken image/brand that needs to be maintained. I’m sure this is all because it’s believed it’s what needed to be relevant , and inclusive.
I think many churches are being run like corporations . We’ve created celebrities. Rather than servants perhaps . There is a theme of Churches revealing their opportunities and needs to people who crave to be needed. Many times seeing people as assets that have a shelf life . Like I said , many really good people in all these environments. But I’m not convinced it creates healthy mature community’s ultimately . I think this is a huge conversation . And look forward to others commenting . I think we can change. But an internal audit of our behaviour and expectations including our motivations is a good start.
Thank you for this. Traditional Anglicanism was Christian nationalist. Not quite true today. Also if we need music to bring us into the presence of God this can be a/is problem. Also Church music must not be a performance - this was criticised by Pope Pius X and Pope Benedict. Benedict told us not to clap in Church, and I am always uncomfortable when the organist is clapped after the final organ voluntary. The absence of silence in worship is a huge problem. I always try to arrive early and have a period of silence before the service starts - so I do not engage in chatting beforehand.
The question of "performance" is a really tricky one to get a grip on. In a worship music setting it's often really emphasised that it's not a performance and that it shouldn't be a performance, but then often that seems to be in tension with the fact that people are getting on a stage and playing some music. Academic scholarship tends to go the other direction and tells us that everything is, in some sense, a performance - perhaps using the word in a slightly different sense. I'm not sure whether it's all that helpful to get caught up too much in a binary of performance or not performance - for me it's more important to dig a little bit deeper and ask what it means for something to be a performance, what are the goals, what do we really draw attention to, what role is something serving within the event or ritual where it's taken place.
@@mrmarkporter I think that we can often tell if it is music in the presence of God or a performance for an audience. I also feel uneasy about preaching/sermon competitions.
Hey everyone, I think the comments as Dr Mark Porter engages with people might become a really interesting space to explore this further. Thanks all :)
That statement at the end, about God being ever present…! 💯👌 How often do you hear prayers before a time of worship asking God to come and ‘bless the worship leader as they lead us into the presence of God’…? 🤨 It’s a very reductive view of who God is and where God is. As I’ve been reflecting on these videos, I think it’s important not to isolate one aspect of the charismatic evangelical experience to just music because the whole experience is centred around ‘worship’ (by which people mostly mean music that is emotive and causes a sensory response), prophecy and charismatic leaders. Those things seem to work, at worst, as an unholy trinity. Because there is an industry aspect cut to it (not just the music business but church networks, speaking engagements, book deals, being seen as a ‘thought leader’ or even a leader who is ‘powerful in God’), I think that’s where it gets most toxic. Although there are churches that are unknown where the leaders have behaved in abusive ways, it seems way more prominent - or has largely been exposed only - in churches where there is an element of this industry occurring. It all seems to rely on this model for it to flourish. No thought leader, no book deal. No power, no conference speaking booking. No celebrity worship leader or saleable music, no record deal.
Yes, and we definitely often have a tendency to mentally separate music out from other aspects of our experience - it's so easy to think of it as a separate realm, and reconnecting it to the rest of our social world is really crucial to getting a grip on what it's doing within our communities. Andrew Mall has done some really interesting work on the industry side of things, his book "God Rock, Inc." does a good job at reflecting a bit on some of the ethical tensions that come up.
As a gay Christian bloke, who has been through the whole ex-gay reparative "therapy," I can't stand Hillsong -type churches, or that culture, anymore. 😢
hey - thanks for commenting. I'd like to make video with someone who's experienced 'conversion therapy', because it's something people need to know about to challenge it.
@@philtate1029do you think you earn your way into heaven by "choosing to be straight"? Also - why are some people so interested in what two consenting adults do in their bedroom?
I don't get the whole 'worship music can't be too interesting or it'll distract people' thing. Music is meant to be interesting and creative and surprising and fun and worship music is no exception. Sure, we aren't mean to show off, but we are meant to create beauty, not slop, which is how I describe the last 15 years of CCM. It all just blends together, which some people might like, but I'm just waiting for something new and exciting. Delirious were huge when they first came out and I'd say they lead the church into modern worship music. There were traces of the CCM we see today, but they had guitar solos, they had entire verses and choruses pulled from scripture, and they had riffs and groove. The only thing CCM has taken from that is ambient post-rock guitar and synth pads are good for pastors praying over in a fake, overly emotional fashion.
Is “the worship industry” an oxymoron?! “The music has to vanish” the fact is, when the music vanishes, it’s still there, it’s still having its effect but it’s just unconscious and it’s manipulative! Why is there music in a supermarket or restaurant? And how is it used? We’re talking about music in the same way and on the same level. That is VERY far from holy!
That's a real insight - I remember being told about the tempo in McDonalds encourages you subliminally to eat quickly. For me music isn't about doing a job, it's like comparing decorating a house with art - however both are still painting.
so, music is doing that job whether we think about it as art or not. When we use music purely as the tool, that’s clearly a problem, and I think it is all too easy in the context of church. I recall hearing someone many years ago talking about managing the “transition from praise into worship”. And that is emotional manipulation, pure and simple. When we’re doing this, we are defining worship as a psychological-emotional state, and there’s nothing inherently spiritual about that at all. I note, with some interest, that Islam bans music from their worship for this very reason. The call to prayer is as musical as they get. And then you have the sufis and the whirling dervishes, as a reaction against that decree, and the whole argument around individual expression enters. Thanks again for another thought provoking video.
To be honest I found contemporary Christian music completely soulless. Does not do anything to me spiritually at ALL. I find the whole thing completely too safe, Controlled and mediocre. A song from the 60’s came on the radio the other day it was a gospel song “ Oh happy day” now that had soul and connection. There was an Essence with that song that modern worship songs are just lacking. Worship songs of today lack creativity completely boring and sound all the same. If you are singing to your maker surely that song has to be interesting, intense and creatively sound and lyrics. To put it bluntly modern worship songs are just so bland! They are completely embarrassing. I have found there are now songs out there about God from none Christian bands asking/singing about something bigger out there that are far more spiritual and move me a lot more than some cheesy worship song. The danger I have seen is with modern worship artists is that they try to duplicate the mainstream music around at the current time into spiritual songs and it is just a complete farce. You end up certainly in the 1990’s with a Christian Poundland U2 sounding band or a Poundland Christian rapper or a like. When I used to go to church I remember there was a worship song that sounded exactly like an early Coldplay record. But with Christian lyrics. How they got away with that I do not know? But the song ended up so embarrassingly cheesy. No originality at all!
Hey Sam, all your content-this video especially-has been putting words to and externalising my own internal thoughts and struggles with Church culture at the moment. Thank you for making these videos!
I’ve got experience in the “worship world/industry” and actually spent my whole childhood and teen years idolising worship musicians, ministries, and that lifestyle in general. I glamorised it so much and became obsessive about finding the next best thing, almost like a worship music hipster-gatekeeping songs and always asking people, “Have you heard of _____?” I just wanted so badly to be part of it, similar to how “regular” musician might dream of becoming famous one day.
One thing I don’t think you touched on as much, though, is how Church culture can add layers of complication through encouragement, prophecy, and discipleship. These often create such a strong sense of hope, purpose, and calling that it feels like there’s no alternative path. I think you touched on this in your video about prophecy and words of encouragement, I’m just commenting on, from experience I guess, in how that plays into worship culture too.
I pursued it as hard as I could, but as I started to realise it wasn’t going to “happen” for me, my sense of self-worth, purpose, and calling took a huge hit-one I don’t think I’ve ever fully recovered from.
Interestingly, now that I’m on the outside of that culture, I find myself questioning just how ethical or genuine any of it really is!
hey - thanks for subscribing. 'Worship culture' as a term is worth a thought generally - it's bizarre it has become it's own subculture within a subculture of a wider subculture!
Great conversation👏. At 38:19 you hit the nail on the head and it's really inciteful re: what we do going forward.
hey, thank you, and thanks for taking to take the time to mark the point on the video too. :)
I'd love if that conversation about the future opens up a bit further
@@mrmarkporter I think for me, music and art in general should be an opportunity for personal or collective freedom of creativity and expression... whereas music in churches is often controlled, curtailed, redacted, becomes formulaic etc, unwittingly serves the purposes of those in leadership rather than being a genuine and authentic response to the Holy Spirit (whatever that may mean or look like). We don't acknowledge the power of music for good or for ill. I have engaged and disengaged in musical worship over the years for these reasons. As you mentioned, we don't need to get rid of musical worship, we just need to be careful, considerate, responsive and reflective in how we do it. That's why it is so great that you are giving considerable thought to it - so thank you and keep up the good work.
Could you explain further how different church plants are approaching musical worship differently? - that it really interesting.
@@tjminstrel Most of my work there was with so-called "emerging church" communities. Within that movement I don't think there was ever much of a unified approach, but there's a bit of a tendency towards more-ambient musics, the idea of music as something which creates space and gives you the option to resonate with something or not to resonate without the pressure to feel a particular way. Some communities go down a route which emphasises the different contributions of different members, some mix up the musics they do so that no single dynamics has the chance to dominate, it really varies massively.
I'm not too sure how this came up on my YT timeline, but very happy it did.
This is a great conversation that many are having silos but may cot have the tools to covey as it was done here.
From a cultural perspective, the worship experience is very nuanced but overall the music should enhance our everyday reality as children of God.
The flute player being asked to stop playing on a previous episode was heart breaking. We endure this obedience to tolerate and appease the people of the world on a daily basis. When musicians finally get to express our love for God in a meaningful way, we are then told to tone our style down and ham it up for the Mariah Carey moments. This sounds like a passive aggressive statement, but as a folk guitarist at heart, it's just the truth of my experience.
HI from New Zealand , i watch a very interesting set up in a church here, the pastor is in his early 70s and his oldest son is a guitar player , he spends a LOT of time watching other churches in America , The change of music all comes from him they even have pedal practice meeting with very very young new Christian musicians .
Ive been to big churches in America and you would definitely think you were in one of their meetings . I believe set ups and changes do come by one person
Copying others to their liking . It definitely does get boring and same old same old , There are people in front of them WITH AMAZING gifts just sitting WAITING for an opportunity to use their gifts , ive noticed over the years you have to be liked by leaders to get a chance to be used ,In my work life it was ALWAYS the wrong people who moved on and the people saying all the right things stayed and often not that productive , thankyou for opening this up Sam and talking , its important , God bless you and your family . Im 72 and been saved 50 years and boy do we need change . Unfortunately no music with many == means a bad service and many will stop going to church
Very sad ,
Rebuke them for Engaging in False Worship, point out that it is the Strange Fire SIN for Which Nadab and Abihu were Slain, and unless they Repent and return to Exclusive Psalmody, or at the very least Traditional Reformed Hymns with a Traditional Pipe Organ, Rebuke them for Witchcraft and Apostasy and leave that "church" to never Return!
Decisions, collective or otherwise to change worship styles often have significant impact, for those musicians affected which can impact value, self-perception, emotional and spiritual wellbeing, especially as volunteers (in UK and other contexts).
Within Mark’s book, there’s reference to R.M Schaefer’s work on soundscapes and I have wondered if moves to more popular-music technology-mediated worship styles is an equivalent to boosting the noisefloor, perhaps at the expense of those who find themselves at the masked and quieter margins. Adopting elements of Schaefer’s sonic and ecological practices would mean that more musicians could be heard (and valued), diversity of experience celebrated, and less homogeneity. Just a thought.
Really interesting and thought-provoking video; stumbled across by accident, and have now subscribed :)
hey thanks David - great to hear from you. The noise floor is a really interesting observation. It makes me think when I've rehearsed with rock bands in the past, the earplugs go in and each of us gradually turns the amp up and up, and the snare becomes a rimshot. You stop listening to one another and the whole thing becomes a fight of volume rather than giving one another space and 'Selah'. Using your analogy, I wonder where the space in the music is in current heavy plectrum led guitar songs? MTV's response to grunge was the Unplugged series - which became huge. Thanks for subscribing :)
In 2025, I definitely want to redevelop my Flute playing. Give me more Hymns!
Not the Hillsong type material....
And, a place for my "Punk Rock" guitar and bass. 😂❤❤
As in so many aspects of being the Body of Christ, the church today is completely misguided regarding the subject of worshipping God in spirit and truth. It has become spellbound by “star” musicians and their commercial wares, believing that this is what is needed by churches. No. What is needed is a discerning exercising of spiritual gifts by Christians within each local church - INCLUDING the gifting to facilitate praise and worship in the way God enables them to. This can be as broad and creative as God enables. It can entail the writing of, and use of, music and song - as God enables. Instead, we reach for off-the-shelf solutions. And we all end up living and looking as blandly and unimaginatively as each other as a result. The commercialisation of “worship music” internationally is a travesty, and a distortion of all that God calls us to in authentically living out the gospel in our communities, as diverse as they all are.
yes, I think you're highlighting two aspects here... commercialisation, I'd agree is rubbish. But star musicians is debatable - there is real value in gifting, and someone with real ability, practiced and focussed, can't they add value?
@ One’s spiritual gifting is for the building up of the local church, not to be turned into an international business. It’s time for Christians, wherever they may be, to use their gifting in the serving and growth of the local church, however God enables.
@@superman00001 But what does it mean to be "local" when many of us are leading highly-networked and mobile lives? Our sense of how we belong to international networks and communities sits alongside the way we belong in a specific location. We can choose to emphasise the local as our main focus or priority, but I don't think we can escape the fact that none of our communities are completely bounded and separated from those broader connections.
@@mrmarkporter Many of us have wider connections than the local community, but I maintain that what matters most for the church is being an authentic, Spirit-led expression of the Body of Christ as a local community in the midst of the unreached local people who surround us - with all their diverse needs, questions, hurts, wounds and longings. The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. Like a grain of yeast. If that means not singing songs penned by California-based Matt Redman or the like, then great! If that means we don’t sing at all but instead use a Psalm or a painting or a piece of classical music or a sculpture or a dance or a couple of Coke cans banged together as an expression of corporate worship, then great! Let us trust God to use and multiply what we have with us already, and which he enables, in the groups in which we sit, and not lazily gorge at the fast food counter of the international “worship industry” which lines the pockets of a very few songwriters. Songwriters who, in very many cases, write low quality songs (both lyrically, theologically and musically) which inaccurately are lauded as “the best on offer”. This message urgently needs to be proclaimed in the ears of a sleeping, lazy, worldly church.
I’ve been involved in worship through music now for 25 years. I remember back mid 90’s something significant emerged where a whole generation of young adults felt inspired to take their music outside of the walls of the church . I think during this time , the lines between worship and performance got very blury. I can honestly say very good people with good intentions sort to bridge the gap between the sacred and the secular . I know of song writers who started out writing songs with God being the focal audience , to a shift of trying to write music that would attempt to include an audience that weren’t believers . I think in many cases , no one did well out of this . I’ve also worked along side some of the big modern pentecostal churches. I’ve seen clear hierarchy dictating everything that happens in a meeting, including what the music sounds like and the environment that is created to facilitate it. I know that in some cases. Musicians have to play exactly an agreed format of parts and sounds . So they can drop into multiples of set bands . I’ve seen this in the industry with professional tribute bands. When you look at the big shows like Coldplay/ U2. The environment plays a huge part in how music is received and engaged with. Dark rooms, lights, smoke , synth pads and whale like guitar tones are very emotive . I think it’s also apparent that what people look like is important. Rather an unspoken image/brand that needs to be maintained. I’m sure this is all because it’s believed it’s what needed to be relevant , and inclusive.
Really interesting observations - I think in Britain we should blame Cutting Edge - who renamed as Delirious? to be more commercial (sort of a joke) 🙃
I think many churches are being run like corporations . We’ve created celebrities. Rather than servants perhaps . There is a theme of Churches revealing their opportunities and needs to people who crave to be needed. Many times seeing people as assets that have a shelf life . Like I said , many really good people in all these environments. But I’m not convinced it creates healthy mature community’s ultimately . I think this is a huge conversation . And look forward to others commenting . I think we can change. But an internal audit of our behaviour and expectations including our motivations is a good start.
Thank you for this. Traditional Anglicanism was Christian nationalist. Not quite true today. Also if we need music to bring us into the presence of God this can be a/is problem. Also Church music must not be a performance - this was criticised by Pope Pius X and Pope Benedict. Benedict told us not to clap in Church, and I am always uncomfortable when the organist is clapped after the final organ voluntary. The absence of silence in worship is a huge problem. I always try to arrive early and have a period of silence before the service starts - so I do not engage in chatting beforehand.
The question of "performance" is a really tricky one to get a grip on. In a worship music setting it's often really emphasised that it's not a performance and that it shouldn't be a performance, but then often that seems to be in tension with the fact that people are getting on a stage and playing some music. Academic scholarship tends to go the other direction and tells us that everything is, in some sense, a performance - perhaps using the word in a slightly different sense. I'm not sure whether it's all that helpful to get caught up too much in a binary of performance or not performance - for me it's more important to dig a little bit deeper and ask what it means for something to be a performance, what are the goals, what do we really draw attention to, what role is something serving within the event or ritual where it's taken place.
@@mrmarkporter I think that we can often tell if it is music in the presence of God or a performance for an audience. I also feel uneasy about preaching/sermon competitions.
Hey everyone, I think the comments as Dr Mark Porter engages with people might become a really interesting space to explore this further. Thanks all :)
That statement at the end, about God being ever present…! 💯👌
How often do you hear prayers before a time of worship asking God to come and ‘bless the worship leader as they lead us into the presence of God’…? 🤨 It’s a very reductive view of who God is and where God is.
As I’ve been reflecting on these videos, I think it’s important not to isolate one aspect of the charismatic evangelical experience to just music because the whole experience is centred around ‘worship’ (by which people mostly mean music that is emotive and causes a sensory response), prophecy and charismatic leaders. Those things seem to work, at worst, as an unholy trinity.
Because there is an industry aspect cut to it (not just the music business but church networks, speaking engagements, book deals, being seen as a ‘thought leader’ or even a leader who is ‘powerful in God’), I think that’s where it gets most toxic. Although there are churches that are unknown where the leaders have behaved in abusive ways, it seems way more prominent - or has largely been exposed only - in churches where there is an element of this industry occurring. It all seems to rely on this model for it to flourish. No thought leader, no book deal. No power, no conference speaking booking. No celebrity worship leader or saleable music, no record deal.
Yes, and we definitely often have a tendency to mentally separate music out from other aspects of our experience - it's so easy to think of it as a separate realm, and reconnecting it to the rest of our social world is really crucial to getting a grip on what it's doing within our communities. Andrew Mall has done some really interesting work on the industry side of things, his book "God Rock, Inc." does a good job at reflecting a bit on some of the ethical tensions that come up.
As a gay Christian bloke, who has been through the whole ex-gay reparative "therapy," I can't stand Hillsong -type churches, or that culture, anymore. 😢
hey - thanks for commenting. I'd like to make video with someone who's experienced 'conversion therapy', because it's something people need to know about to challenge it.
I'm in Australia, Sam. ❤@@SamHowson
Bro do you believe it is honouring to the Lord for you be in an active relationship with another guy while pursuing a life of purity for Jesus?
@@philtate1029do you think you earn your way into heaven by "choosing to be straight"? Also - why are some people so interested in what two consenting adults do in their bedroom?
I don't get the whole 'worship music can't be too interesting or it'll distract people' thing.
Music is meant to be interesting and creative and surprising and fun and worship music is no exception.
Sure, we aren't mean to show off, but we are meant to create beauty, not slop, which is how I describe the last 15 years of CCM. It all just blends together, which some people might like, but I'm just waiting for something new and exciting.
Delirious were huge when they first came out and I'd say they lead the church into modern worship music. There were traces of the CCM we see today, but they had guitar solos, they had entire verses and choruses pulled from scripture, and they had riffs and groove.
The only thing CCM has taken from that is ambient post-rock guitar and synth pads are good for pastors praying over in a fake, overly emotional fashion.
Is “the worship industry” an oxymoron?!
“The music has to vanish” the fact is, when the music vanishes, it’s still there, it’s still having its effect but it’s just unconscious and it’s manipulative! Why is there music in a supermarket or restaurant? And how is it used? We’re talking about music in the same way and on the same level. That is VERY far from holy!
That's a real insight - I remember being told about the tempo in McDonalds encourages you subliminally to eat quickly. For me music isn't about doing a job, it's like comparing decorating a house with art - however both are still painting.
so, music is doing that job whether we think about it as art or not. When we use music purely as the tool, that’s clearly a problem, and I think it is all too easy in the context of church. I recall hearing someone many years ago talking about managing the “transition from praise into worship”. And that is emotional manipulation, pure and simple. When we’re doing this, we are defining worship as a psychological-emotional state, and there’s nothing inherently spiritual about that at all.
I note, with some interest, that Islam bans music from their worship for this very reason. The call to prayer is as musical as they get. And then you have the sufis and the whirling dervishes, as a reaction against that decree, and the whole argument around individual expression enters.
Thanks again for another thought provoking video.
To be honest I found contemporary Christian music completely soulless. Does not do anything to me spiritually at ALL. I find the whole thing completely too safe, Controlled and mediocre. A song from the 60’s came on the radio the other day it was a gospel song “ Oh happy day” now that had soul and connection. There was an Essence with that song that modern worship songs are just lacking. Worship songs of today lack creativity completely boring and sound all the same. If you are singing to your maker surely that song has to be interesting, intense and creatively sound and lyrics. To put it bluntly modern worship songs are just so bland! They are completely embarrassing. I have found there are now songs out there about God from none Christian bands asking/singing about something bigger out there that are far more spiritual and move me a lot more than some cheesy worship song. The danger I have seen is with modern worship artists is that they try to duplicate the mainstream music around at the current time into spiritual songs and it is just a complete farce. You end up certainly in the 1990’s with a Christian Poundland U2 sounding band or a Poundland Christian rapper or a like. When I used to go to church I remember there was a worship song that sounded exactly like an early Coldplay record. But with Christian lyrics. How they got away with that I do not know? But the song ended up so embarrassingly cheesy. No originality at all!
Sam, im watching this video now.
What is appropriate way to talk to you?
Instagram?
Hey, you're welcome to email me - my details can be found on here. Thanks