The most encouraging word I ever had was a few years ago from someone I barely knew who had a dream about me. She whatsApped me early on a Sunday morning. It was incredibly encouraging and spoke about God's heart for me. A lot of stuff I've heard over the years borders on crystal ball gazing.
This was fantastic, thank you. I grew up in charismatic churches - looking back on my youth, there was a disconnect between learning analytical and questioning skills in my schooling and the church environment i was part of. It wasn't until I had moved into churches that weren't generally charismatic, that I had the distance to question the usefulness of it, or at least the practice of it. I do still believe that God can give people genuine words of knowledge/prophecies, I'm just sceptical as to how much of what we see is genuine. One area you highlighted very well in this video, is what it does to those receiving or seeking to receive a word. It makes you feel really special - who doesn't want to feel really special? It's like you're on a TV show and they are looking for a volunteer to come up on the stage but you're not allowed to put your hand up to volunteer. So you wait, heart beating fast in your seat, hoping God has got a special word for you. Yet, all these years later, I've realised that what's more important and to be more treasured, are the words that God speaks to all of us from Scripture. And the challenge to take up our cross and follow Him etc. I would say, keep going and digging. There's many people asking similar questions and digging for deeper roots.
Very interesting. I became part of a New Frontiers church in the late 1990’s. At first I thought it was fantastic then a few years later had serious doubts to what going on. One major event was Stoneleigh Bible week. A lot of this was based around prophetic words on revival prophecy which was preached that this was almost imminent. There was a band called world wide message tribe pumping this message to rap music .The main head church leader speaking in tongues for about an hour ( Another subject matter) in like a Chinese dialogue. Every thing that was preached had a message of urgency. Get ready, Get ready was the message I fell for it at first and thought that these Prophetic words were genuine. This carried on at our church for a long time. I remember a preach about carrying the baton and we were doing circuit running around the church passing the baton to another believer. Breakthrough is coming, Breakthrough is coming. None of it, I repeat, None of it has come to light! When I question this years later after nothing happened they tried to evade the question. They didn’t like it. Needless to say I left the church in the end. It was going around in circles or to put it frankly going nowhere. Too many egos and power. I understand where you are right now because it was a big part of my life for nearly twenty years. It affects you. I had a long period of not connecting with God until recently. It only started to happen when I decided to leave church for good. After serious prayer ( God where do you want me?)and what seems like a coincidence more than once bumping into many people that have left church. I now attend a home group with other people that have no satisfaction with church and I have got more out of that spiritually than church. Its about friendship, fellowship, Bible study and discussion and most importantly prayer. No silly worship music nonsense. It’s a kind of therapy. Maybe Gods having a clear out of these charismatic churches and exposing everything?? It has to be back to basics as the early Church was I believe. Not these superstar preachers and leaders holding all the cards.
Hi, I went to a new frontiers church for a while and left too. I used to give “prophetic words” up front and give people individual words too. I have repented of this and have to come to see that what the charismatic church calls the gifts of the Spirit aren’t as they were in the Bible and I don’t believe that they are for today now. The Lord used them to establish His church and give us the scripture. I’m not sure if you’ve heard of cessationism, I hadn’t for most of m Christian life, I now don’t speak in what was gibberish and certainly don’t tell people God told me to say….. It wasn’t easy to come to this conclusion but once I was convinced by scripture and not my experience I have been more stable in my walk with the Lord and I’m not looking for constant reassurance in words from God or spiritual experiences. He is the Lord of all time and His word is all we need for life and godliness
@@danielwarton5343 Sounds similar to what I experienced. It was part of my life for twenty years from the age of 29/30! There were a few things that just was not right. Not just one. Speaking in tongues was one of them. It was always interpreted by an elder or leader in general. Sometimes by a congregation member but rare. Then one day I just knew this was complete nonsense because the lady in person talking in this gibberish was repeating the exact same phrases but yet a completely different interpretation. In the book of a Acts it says what appears like flames above their heads. Ok I wasn't there back then. But looking at scripture it was phenomenal gift given by God back then for that particular time. Not NOW! Now when did you see like a flame above peoples heads in church speaking in tongues. I guess the answer to that was never? So it is completely fake! It seems to me and I may be wrong but God is having a huge clear out at the moment. Many things are being exposed including some false leaders. I use the term Career Christians! I think he wants us to get back to basics not these side show churches which actually are not representing who he is at all spiritually.
I was part of New Frontiers for quite a few years and was even asked by my pastor to take their Leadership course in Poole, Dorset. During the interview I saw pictures of past ‘graduates’ on the wall, all the usual suspects desperate for position and obviously they’d all put themselves thru the course. I turned down the offer after this. I saw many rotten deeds and attitudes from regional leadership and eventually my pastor was booted out by the rich club in the church, who incidentally included much of the regional leaders. The leadership course manager incidentally was also booted out. He was a nice decent guy. Ultimately I didnt want New Frontiers theology pumped down my throat, which tbh was all the leadership course was. I left shortly after the pastor was booted out and that church fell apart, not due to my leaving but due to the stench I saw happening. As far as I’m aware it never fully recovered.
@@CHESEABUN I’m glad you’re checking what the Bible actually teaches rather than what it has been misused to teach. Also the word for tongues is the same as the word for languages. The KJV translators used tongues as that was the word that was used to describe a language, eg, he spoke in his mother tongue. The tongues we see in the Bible doesn’t have to have to tongues of fire over their heads. That was a one time occasion, but Paul does say in 1 Corinthians about the gift of tongues in the church. This wouldn’t have been the fire over the heads, this was a symbol of the Holy Spirit imparting the gift and I dwelling believers, but it would have been a foreign language that was spoken, a real language. There is a misunderstanding of when Paul about speaking in the tongues of angels, he was using a polemic to indicate that even if you could speak in an angelic language but did it without love then it mean nothing. In the context of the chapter you see him go on to say that if you did anything to the enth degree but without love, it was meaningless. Check out the Strange fire conference available on RUclips at Grace community church L.A. This helped me so much, Tom Pennington’s talk especially persuaded me from the previous beliefs I held to. Hope that helps
@@danielwarton5343 Spot on. Exactly. A tongue is a language as you say mother tongue I cant see the point of talking a load of gibberish in church that no one understands. Makes no sense. Maybe the original gifting of the Holy spirit was that they were given the ability to speak another tribes language so that the tribe could fully understand exactly everything that was spoken? That makes complete sense to me. I have also seen people say they have the gift of the Holy Spirit or under the influence bouncing around church like space bunny's or hysterics of laughter or screaming. which I found quite unsettling in the early 2000's. Surely God is a God of order not Chaos? When I have experienced the Holy Spirit it is an akin to an huge life changing awakening or affirmation or Revelation. Not a circus! The awakening happened in 1988after a prayer on my own in the car. I asked God for help in the situation I was in at that time. I clearly felt his presence in the car. Life changing! and very moving. A peace came over move which I can only describe as perfect peace! Very brief but I will never forget it, Yet I told the church I was going to about this experience Five years ago because I could not find God in Church and they said it was the Devil!! It was the final straw. It was goodbye from that moment,
Gosh where do we begin? This is STILL such a big part of certain church cultures in the U.K. My biggest problem with it is that it stops us making decisions for ourselves as adults. I still struggle with this as I leave this element of christian culture behind.
@SamHowson making decisions for myself. "Prophecy" was a way that you could very comfortably not feel responsible for life choices or decisions. So for example with your life with regards to the tape it could be your next move to become a worship leader based on the prophetic word given. Even though this was not where you ended up! Instead of using logic, wisdom and praying you are essentially being directed by the words of others. I think one can get used to needing that. Codependance I guess! That's what I experience.
I worry that much of the prophesy we see in these circles is more about fortune telling that turns our relationship with God into a transactional relationship. People are looking for their next fix and think that if we perform well we get rewarded with a word to shows us the next step. It is unfortunately turned into another example of the 'it's all about me' gospel.
This resonates. I may get the courage to share my experience in the future (not soul survivor, but similar). Thanks for this, I don't feel so isolated now
Dear Sam, I will pray that the Spirit of Christ will continue to speak to you through the Word of God( your only source of truth) as you try and make sense of your past experiences in church. Remember, the road to heaven is narrow and you need to pass through the gate ( Jesus ). My husband and I, by the grace of God, woke up and recognised the voice of God in the scriptures Alone during COVID lockdown. We were questioning the fruit and much more, having the luxury of being able to step back from serving the church. We had been part of charismatic and evangelical churches both in the UK and abroad for 40 odd years. My testimony involves a very real experience of the supernatural so it was my preferred worship style with very shallow doctrine. After I retired I decided to do a Bible training course with the Sussex gospel partnership which was really an introduction to theology and doctrine including hermeneutics etc. My world view completely changed and light flooded into my mind and understanding of our Great God and how salvation really works through the sacrifice of His only son Jesus Christ. We could not believe how blind we had been to the false gospel that has got into large parts of the church and felt it important to repent of our behaviours and involvement over many years. ( including the prophetic nonsense of speaking into people’s lives which is a form of witchcraft) Again by the grace of God we have now found a loving and gospel led Bible believing church and although any church can fall into sin we now feel more equipped to be discerning and wise enough to know that the heart of man is deceitful but the heart of God is to rescue us from our prideful selves. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened unto you….. With Christian love.
Your experience illustrates one of the many concerns that Cessationists have. Cessationism is the belief the revelatory and sign gifts of the early church were withdrawn from the church upon completion of the New Testament because they were no longer necessary for the instruction of the church. This was this historic position of the church for the next 1700 years, until the early Pentecostal movement tried to revive them 120 years ago. So, one of the many concerns we have is their abuse. "Words of knowledge" "prophecies" etc can all be abused by prophets simply because no one knows if they are really from God, or if they are from the flesh or imagination or the lusts of the 'prophet' or if they are demonic in origin. The only way to be sure is to compare them to the Bible. If they are in harmony with the Bible, why not use the Bible instead? If they're not, wouldn't you be wiser trusting the Bible instead of the prophet? As soon as you place your faith in a 'prophet' you're acknowledging that who God obviously favours him more than you, other wise God would have given you the same gift. And since God knows everything and speaks to the prophet, God can reveal your deepest and darkest secrets to the prophet, so you'd better do what the prophet says. While not all Charismatics and Pentecostals abuse this 'gift' like this, many do and some abuse it hideously. Even when Paul was writing about the early spiritual gifts, it is clear that the church in Corinth was struggling with their frequent abuse. At least with a completed Bible, we can all agree it is the word of God and then make applications to ourselves without pretending that some 'prophet' can see into our souls.
I was in a Soul Survivor style CofE church and one of the leaders used a (private) "word of knowledge" to attempt to bully me with "eternal damnation". Instead of accepting this I left the church. I didn't believe for one moment it was genuinely from God, but I still find it upsetting a decade on. People may say that I need to "toughen up" and be humble to take the words seriously from a spiritual leader, but why should I? Why should I even go to church?
I was in a church where there was a regular stream of words of knowledge from the Pastor that revival was shortly coming to the church, and that they would be moving into a bigger building. Well to this day they are still in that building and the revival never did happen.
My very first visit to church youth group when I was 16 had us all crammed into the smallest meeting room in the church (both halls were booked) sitting round the edge underneath and on top of tables and we went round the room praying for each person asking for words of knowledge. I found it bewildering. It was a common activity at the end of every youth group to lay hands on a person who requested prayer and to give them 'words of knowledge'. Considering how fresh most of us were to church and despite the warnings to test everything with what is said in the bible it was probably more than a little iffy. Also I totally here you when you say being at the centre of that moment is intoxicating 🙌 I also remember in the following summer (by now 17) a few of us went with the youth leader to a New Wine 'prophecy training day', which now seems utterly bizarre - who trains to receive a gift? It was literally like a follow these steps day, and did include the now questionable only lay hands on members of the same sex unless someone else of the recipients sex is also there. At the end of the day there was a session to try out we have learnt and I was feeling a little overwhelmed by pressure, I told someone that God would use them to lead people to him - a safe bet right?😂 Turns out they were a vicar who had just returned from sabbatical after burnout - I've never been able to distinguish if it was a profound moment or just being lucky with something generic.
A comment from Nigeria where this is common place in the Pentecostal and Charismatic circles (of which I am a member of.) Some prophecies do come to pass, but a personal decision of mine is to both pray about received words and leave them up to God to bring to pass. I see there is a danger in the falsities and I am particularly wary of it but I do not actively discourage the expression of the gifts of God because in deed I have seen them work actively both in small mundane things and in larger consequential situations.
This video was so accurate Sam 👌 A few reflections of my own: While I believe in the prophetic - prophecy being the revealing of God’s will, God speaking truth and people speaking it on God’s behalf (as in a messenger of God), etc - I think, as you so beautifully put it, a lot of the charismatic church has cheapened prophecy to the kinds of wishy-washy words that you played on the cassette tape. I’ve had powerful times where God has spoken directly to me and revealed something of his will or even the future; things I simply cannot explain by rational thought, things that were and are undeniably the voice and will of God. However, I’ve probably only had a handful (if that) of times in my entire Christian walk where those words were delivered by other people, and on those occasions, the person who gave the prophetic word - like Caiaphas, the High Priest in the New Testament - thought meant one thing when it meant entirely another. Many of those other prophetic prayer sessions I’ve sat in, in my experience at least, have been tinged with the same general wishing-washy words of ‘I see a rainbow 🌈’. I often feel that many of the words given are either misguided, made up and misunderstood at best and manipulative and manufactured at worst. A lot of those prayer/prophetic sessions at the end of church services and feel a little manufactured as well. As you identify, for the young and/or impressionable, it can leave people wide open to all kinds of abuse or misinterpretation of what is being said. In my own zeal, I’ve given words to others (when I worked in a church and had people under me) that were (retrospectively thinking about it) way more about me than they were about them. The LORD in his goodness brought one word about for someone, to which I am eternally grateful, even though it was more about me than the other person. I do think (here comes my favourite word) it is complicated because, as I said in the video we did about worship music, God can and does use anything, even the silly prophetic words we give in haste and from our own brokenness, to bring about his will. If anything, at best - and I like to try and find the best in it these days if I can to bring balance and so I’m not painting a caricature or demonising the church - those prophetic prayer sessions do offer encouragement to believers more often than not. If someone brings a scripture, then at least I feel upheld by the word of God. Or if someone give me an encouragement of some kind, at least I am encouraged. But with any of this, I think the problem is the charismatic hive mind doesn’t let people to think for themselves, encourage discernment and allow for critical thinking. (I once heard someone give a prophecy about the ‘primary colours’ and then referred to each of them: red, blue and… green! 🧐🤨 None of the leaders even blinked, while I scanned the room to catch anyone’s eye!!!). If we simply take what were given as ‘prophetic words from the LORD’ then all kind of things can be spoken over you. Like the time someone told me, just before I went on stage to play in the worship team, ‘I think God is saying you’re only ever going to do this as a hobby’. Again, this word did actually come true in the end but I was bereft for many years because I wanted to be a professional musician. It may have proven true but it was delivered in such a flippant, unhelpful way. I’m sure many a prophetic word has been given that has been baseless in any truth, hasn’t come from God and was entirely the concoction of someone’s well meaning imagination,
Hi Sam, I’m your age and was part of an evangelical church in London. I had similar experiences to those which you describe and as a teenager I went on the soul survivor camps. Who knows?- we might have sat next to each other in a big tent once upon a time. Words of prophecy and knowledge were practiced frequently in the church and the term ‘naturally supernatural’ made it all comfortable. I have always had reservations about vague pictures, open to a range of interpretations being given with what ‘might be’ the authority of the Almighty- ‘but it could just be me, so hold it lightly’. I know that it was important to me to live a life that pleased God, in keeping with a sense of purpose or calling. It still is. I wanted affirmation that I was on the right track. I still do. I was often waiting for prayer ministry or praying for others. I trained as an actor and only recently stopped calling myself an actor after years and years of piecemeal work which used my performance skills to greater or lesser effect. I had a ‘picture’ given to me at the very start of my acting career (from a stranger in a field in Shepton Mallet), which was me, standing on a stage under theatrical lighting. I was about to tour with a Christian theatre company, performing and doing outreach in communities up and down the country. This was very encouraging as you can imagine. Some years later I was given a word of knowledge that I was called to be a teacher. I kept thinking about it as work ticked along with no real sense of momentum for years. Recently an old friend reached out and asked if I’d ever thought about teaching. I’m now doing a PGCE and hoping that this is God’s plan for the next 20 years! I struggle with doubts. I’m hoping and doing my best to trust that it will work out. I should be writing an essay!
I think this channel will take us all through an amazing group journey for us all as we, as a group, would have had similar experiences. I feel those who come to this channel would all walk this journey together.
We were at Spring Harvest once when someone at the front was describing a dam bursting, representing revival. Was it a coincidence that The Dambusters had been on television that afternoon? 🤔
I agree with the previous comment. I know we've chatted briefly before Sam, and, as you know, I'm questioning a lot too. I'd say though that I'm more than questioning... I've actually seen some things to be completely ridiculously unjustifiable. I think it's (ironically and unfortunately) inevitable that we get drawn into weird novel ideas and activities when we have the awesome realisation that God created the whole universe and he actually loves ME!! ... then of course he could do anything: He could create the world in six 24 hour periods... There could be a secret rapture... He might want to heal absolutely everyone who comes and gets prayed for... and if you're not healed, well, it's kind of your problem, there's a key you're yet to find; a sin you're yet to confess; or a curse your yet to break... Oh yeah! ... and there's that massive revival that's... just around the corner!!! But he didn't, He doesn't, and there probably isn't. Luckily none of this has put me off being hungry for God's power and presence in my life or made me doubt any of the words of the Nicene- Constantinopolitan Creed. Thank God that there does exist a traditional, balanced exegesis and practice within the Christian world. Apologies for the essay : )
@SamHowson I too listened to an old prophecy tape of mine not long back (Ivan and Isabel I believe, from Canada). Absolutely wonderful people. But looking back it was ever so vague, and too much like cold reading. But obviously God does really use people in prophetic gifts, so I can't be too critical; but I can be critical of people going beyond their actual gifting and authority and the church culture which just encourages and creates this instant super spiritual hit without the truth that, historically, actual wonder workers with actual miracles and actual prophetic giftings, were, more often than not, Christians with great maturity and ascetic discipline (sacrificial love... slaves of God). Modern evangelical charismatic world and practice? ... largely good intentioned; partly (with others I've met or have ministered to me) subtle pride; even arrogance. If we want to strengthen, encourage and comfort one another maybe we should just speak those lovely words to one another without calling it prophecy, or that moment of imagination a vision and falling into the trap of Christian fortune telling and delusion. Oh dear, another essay. I very much liked the spirit in which you did this video. Keep up this valuable and timely space : )
I went to a church (one I’m still part of), which just seems really healthy compared to what you’re describing - the questioning you’re talking about was accepted, even encouraged - but it was deemed “strange” by many of my Christian friends. For example xample - when my wife and I were dating, i went along to her college Bible Study group and talked about my church (they had heard it was “different”), and my wife was later told I needed to be converted before she could marry me. Thanks for your openness.
Had to also throw this one in too: I find it curious all those prophetic words about ‘a great wave coming’ (the wave being revival or the Spirit of God coming on the nation or whatever). I wrote a song about jt called Drifted, which I’ll be putting on my next album (when I get around to recording it! 😂) which has the lyric: …and they spoke of some great wave that would crash on these shores But I’m still waiting for it to come Surf’s up for me and all of the unbelievers… 😅
"another arrow in the oddity quiver"...LOL! And also...lovely colour palette on your video! I have lots of thoughts and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences... 1) I'm wondering if you've had any therapy or counselling for everything you've been through? You don't have to answer that but you've clearly been through a lot! I don't think there are many people that escape "church hurt" (myself included) but you've been part of some serious stuff. 2) There are so many hot topics in the church and you've put your finger on a few of them (and I haven't even watched all your videos yet!)...I'm referring to worship and prophesy for starters. I think with all of these things...the stewarding of them requires the right heart motivations....and a Christ-like heart....Jesus on earth was a servant leader, humble, gentle and His mission (in part) was to reveal the heart of the Father....He was also uncompromising and didn't mince His words...but that was usually in His dealings with the religious Pharisees...not genuine believers or the hurting. The Bible is quite clear about it's importance and urges us to eagerly desire the gift of prophesy (which is different form the "office" of the prophet). Prophesy can "go wrong" on all sorts of levels!! People can get it wrong...whether it's giving the word...the source of the word...the timing of the word...the delivery of the word....giving "information only" without the heart of love that the Father has for everyone........people can receive it wrongly.....either through ignorance (not understanding that you have to work with a prophetic word to see it's fruit...it's not usually "fortune telling")...people might not understand or know that it is always for the receiver to discern and consider whether they think it's from God and accurate...or even if it is..whether they want to accept it or not. Prophesy, prophetic culture, prophets, the purpose and function of prophesy ....it's a huge topic! I also think prophetic words sometimes have a "time window"....if the Lord is inviting you to be an olympic athlete...clearly you would have to partner with that word in your teens/20s and not leave it till you are 50! (that's an extreme example but you know what I mean). People really should be taught to hear the voice of God for themselves...and it shouldn't be the case that "special people" are more of an authority on your life than you are yourself. And you should feel entirely free to bin a word (or put it in the "maybe tray") that doesn't resonate with you. There is such a lot of mess in the prophetic world today (as there is in worship culture) but that doesn't mean I want to throw the baby out with the bath water. I want to resuscitate the baby and see it grow and thrive! I could go on but that is ridiculously long! Keep going Sam! Keep provoking thought and conversation. This is GOOD!
Thanks, I did counselling when I worked in the church as a student youth worker - that seemed more necessary as young people relied on me. Life and work experience has eclipsed a lot the hurt caused in church. Thanks again!
I’m not a charismatic basher , but I find many people in these churches spend too much time centered on themselves and not on God . Also I find the words of the Bible much deeper , much more inspiring and much more practical …and more beautiful …than many so called modern prophecies and words !
Thanks for your content - all very interesting. I immediately recognised the second voice of the guy on your 'tape' as I went to his large charismatic Anglican church in London 20+ years ago, (he was apart of the New Wine/Soul Survivor crowd) not a bad chap but like many, me included, caught up in too much hype around the gifts of the Spirit, which I do believe in, but of course always open to abuse. I have similarly received words and prophecies, which I kept a record of, and none of which have materialised in any recognisable way I'm 20 or so years older than you but over the last 5 years I've been reflecting on and deprogramming from Toronto et al, which, even at the time, just felt a bit off for some reason. Coming out the other side I'm far more spiritually contented. Too much NAR in the charismatic world now for me, craziness seems to have become normalised. It's difficult to find places with balance, which is a real shame as the Body of Christ is poorer for lack of space for the gifts to operate. Keep up the good work.
So many "prophets" out there give timelines and are consistently wrong. (Julie Green comes to mind). And the more they're wrong, the more rabid their followers are in defending them. Just because you're being told what you want to hear doesn't mean it is the truth.
Near the end of the video, you ask "What's your reason and motivation for doing it?". I get nervous when people give words of knowledge. I wonder if we have lost sight of how serious it is to speak on behalf of God. Should there be accountability required from those who speak on behalf of God? It might temper their enthusiasm for talking nonsense. There are safeguarding issues to be thought through for recipients of words of knowledge. It used to intrigue me when a prophet had to ask a person's name before giving them an 'accurate' summary of what is about to happen in their life over the next ten years.
I came to faith in our precious lord jesus christ 7yrs ago on stpatricks day 17:3:17 funny enough,thru decades of hardcore drug addiction I cried out for God/jesus to help and he did I received the holyghost like lovely warm oil being pour in to my head neck,torso,arms legs feet it took 2mins to fill my head to my toes I wasnt brought up in church,I had just be reading the bible when I got to Samuel being told by God to go anoint david bcos God was leaving Saul,so Samuel had 7 of Jesse's son stand in front of him to pour the oil out of the horn but it didn't come out so he asked Jesse did he have anymore sons and he was told yes the youngest Las called David who was out in the field looking after the sheep so he told
Thanks again for the video Sam! Thought-provoking as always. I think prophecy can be incredibly powerful, for the reasons that you outline, particularly as it can determine the course of action that someone may choose. That's also why it's really important that any words given are Biblical - something along the lines of God loves you, sin is bad, there is always forgiveness if you repent, Jesus died that you might be saved etc. Sounded like the words you were given were meant to be encouraging and upbuilding and to give you faith?! When it comes to more specific words about particular people/ places/ vocations etc we need to be really careful as they could be incredibly manipulative. If I remember correctly, words about people getting married were banned at Soul Survivor?? So for me, I guess some of the words I received from others have been life-influencing. Probably those that spoke into a particular situation, or that coincided with what I felt like God might be saying to me. Those that I do remember have helped give me faith for things. I also think that people calling out gifting and personality traits can be incredibly affirming. When someone who loves you says good/ encouraging stuff about you it is massive. When someone who has a controlling/ manipulative intention says stuff about you, it is toxic. The wisdom of pastoral oversight requires that the first type of prophetic word happen and that the second type don't.
Your points are well made. My challenge is how do we realistically achieve that healthy place of 'pastoral oversight'? I've met 'pastors' who I wouldn't trust to walk my dog (if I had a dog!), never mind entrust them to ensure wise pastoral oversight.
Probably need some good teaching. Explain how to 'weigh' prophecies, and teach people to discern; how to hold these kind of words lightly as they are given by fallible human beings. Best of all of course is for people to grow in their own relationship with God. If you want a more direct approach you could, of course, remind those giving prophesies that the Old Testament punishment for a false prophet was death! That should help them to add a few more hedging phrases / disclaimers when they give a word of knowledge / prophecy 😉
PS I think also that God doesn't always spoon-feed us with prophesy. What I mean by that is that prophesy may raise a subject and it's up to us to pray about it and seek the Lord for further intel! And sometimes prophesy is one part of the jigsaw and there may be other pieces. For example....in 2010 I received a prophesy from a well known prophet that the Lord was inviting me into a season of "training and equipping". I had a well-established professional career by that point in my life and it wasn't on my radar to take a career break. So I brushed off the prophetic word as meaning a course, or conference or evening part time thing or something...but the Lord was very clear, as I prayed about it, that it was to be a full-time immersive season *gulp and double gulp and hmmmm maybe no thank you?!*....subsequent to that, the Lord lined up a whole series of events that very clearly led me to leaving my job and moving to the US for a year in 2014. That year abroad set me up for the next decade in terms of relationships and opportunities that opened up to me and was very clearly orchestrated by God.....but it was in "seed form" in the prophetic word....and also it was an invitation...we can always say no to prophetic words.
The standard of prophecy in the Bible is that if God says it it will come true, if not, it’s not from God. How long will people keep giving shade to people who are often wrong.
This is really interesting stuff. Do you see this going on in other Anglican churches in England? I’m starting to get the impression these groups are everywhere and getting more popular especially in London
Hilariously, a lot of these seem to match pretty well with what you’re doing now… though the worship thing may not have worked out as they imagined. Bit like the conservative church elder who prophesied over me that I’d have a ministry using Isaiah 49 “Come out! Be free!” just as I was starting a support group for LGBT Christians…. You can read these things in so many ways and often were given an interpretation rather than taught to weigh and discern and bin.
Yes - this hits the mark. So much of a certain sort of church life is all about control and power. It the opposite of health church life - Queen Elizabeth 1 stated that she did not want to put a window into men’s souls and what you describe is the reverse. We have the spiritually immature behaving like they are a great saint, and those outside are put off by this nonsense.
Well, I was in Bible college in UK, and it was very much into all this stuff. In first term I was asked out by a visiting speaker and spoken over and apparentlyI was the apple of God's eye and lots of positive things. Term 2, I moved same college at a different campus. I began to see so many wrong things, like, they weren't teaching the Word or about Jesus, but it was mostly experiential and the teacher's personal stories. There was no real teaching about Jesus. At one session, the very same 'prophet' from campus one called me out and basically chastised me. I didn't know why at all. Think he'd forgetten how wonderful I was from his first prophecy. 😂😂 I challenged a couple of teachers when I saw the manipulation. I then went to Bible college in USA hoping someone would actually teach me the Bible. We were in Dallas, the buckle of the Bible belt. We had many many charismatic fraudsters come to speak. All very famous. It was totally disheartening. I can tell you now, 30 years on, stay FAR away from the charismatic church. The evangelical church is an absolute mess, as are churches that permit unbiblical practises like same sex marriage. C of E leaders in London appear to be strongly drawn to Ecumism specifically with the RC church. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. It's a giant mess!!!! 😢
You may find a short work of fiction written in 1985, by Tim Parks to be of interest. "Tongues of Flame". A normal church of england family is ripped apart by charismatic-crazy, resulting in estrangement, death, etc - All told from the point of view of a young teenage boy. It's three hour read. You might have to order it from Waterstones.
The most encouraging word I ever had was a few years ago from someone I barely knew who had a dream about me. She whatsApped me early on a Sunday morning. It was incredibly encouraging and spoke about God's heart for me. A lot of stuff I've heard over the years borders on crystal ball gazing.
The church service have-a-go-hero really did get predictable eh?
This was fantastic, thank you. I grew up in charismatic churches - looking back on my youth, there was a disconnect between learning analytical and questioning skills in my schooling and the church environment i was part of. It wasn't until I had moved into churches that weren't generally charismatic, that I had the distance to question the usefulness of it, or at least the practice of it. I do still believe that God can give people genuine words of knowledge/prophecies, I'm just sceptical as to how much of what we see is genuine. One area you highlighted very well in this video, is what it does to those receiving or seeking to receive a word. It makes you feel really special - who doesn't want to feel really special? It's like you're on a TV show and they are looking for a volunteer to come up on the stage but you're not allowed to put your hand up to volunteer. So you wait, heart beating fast in your seat, hoping God has got a special word for you.
Yet, all these years later, I've realised that what's more important and to be more treasured, are the words that God speaks to all of us from Scripture. And the challenge to take up our cross and follow Him etc.
I would say, keep going and digging. There's many people asking similar questions and digging for deeper roots.
Very interesting. I became part of a New Frontiers church in the late 1990’s. At first I thought it was fantastic then a few years later had serious doubts to what going on. One major event was Stoneleigh Bible week. A lot of this was based around prophetic words on revival prophecy which was preached that this was almost imminent. There was a band called world wide message tribe pumping this message to rap music .The main head church leader speaking in tongues for about an hour ( Another subject matter) in like a Chinese dialogue. Every thing that was preached had a message of urgency. Get ready, Get ready was the message I fell for it at first and thought that these Prophetic words were genuine. This carried on at our church for a long time. I remember a preach about carrying the baton and we were doing circuit running around the church passing the baton to another believer. Breakthrough is coming, Breakthrough is coming. None of it, I repeat, None of it has come to light! When I question this years later after nothing happened they tried to evade the question. They didn’t like it. Needless to say I left the church in the end. It was going around in circles or to put it frankly going nowhere. Too many egos and power. I understand where you are right now because it was a big part of my life for nearly twenty years. It affects you. I had a long period of not connecting with God until recently. It only started to happen when I decided to leave church for good. After serious prayer ( God where do you want me?)and what seems like a coincidence more than once bumping into many people that have left church. I now attend a home group with other people that have no satisfaction with church and I have got more out of that spiritually than church. Its about friendship, fellowship, Bible study and discussion and most importantly prayer. No silly worship music nonsense. It’s a kind of therapy. Maybe Gods having a clear out of these charismatic churches and exposing everything?? It has to be back to basics as the early Church was I believe. Not these superstar preachers and leaders holding all the cards.
Hi, I went to a new frontiers church for a while and left too. I used to give “prophetic words” up front and give people individual words too. I have repented of this and have to come to see that what the charismatic church calls the gifts of the Spirit aren’t as they were in the Bible and I don’t believe that they are for today now. The Lord used them to establish His church and give us the scripture.
I’m not sure if you’ve heard of cessationism, I hadn’t for most of m Christian life, I now don’t speak in what was gibberish and certainly don’t tell people God told me to say…..
It wasn’t easy to come to this conclusion but once I was convinced by scripture and not my experience I have been more stable in my walk with the Lord and I’m not looking for constant reassurance in words from God or spiritual experiences. He is the Lord of all time and His word is all we need for life and godliness
@@danielwarton5343 Sounds similar to what I experienced. It was part of my life for twenty years from the age of 29/30! There were a few things that just was not right. Not just one. Speaking in tongues was one of them. It was always interpreted by an elder or leader in general. Sometimes by a congregation member but rare. Then one day I just knew this was complete nonsense because the lady in person talking in this gibberish was repeating the exact same phrases but yet a completely different interpretation. In the book of a Acts it says what appears like flames above their heads. Ok I wasn't there back then. But looking at scripture it was phenomenal gift given by God back then for that particular time. Not NOW! Now when did you see like a flame above peoples heads in church speaking in tongues. I guess the answer to that was never? So it is completely fake! It seems to me and I may be wrong but God is having a huge clear out at the moment. Many things are being exposed including some false leaders. I use the term Career Christians! I think he wants us to get back to basics not these side show churches which actually are not representing who he is at all spiritually.
I was part of New Frontiers for quite a few years and was even asked by my pastor to take their Leadership course in Poole, Dorset. During the interview I saw pictures of past ‘graduates’ on the wall, all the usual suspects desperate for position and obviously they’d all put themselves thru the course. I turned down the offer after this. I saw many rotten deeds and attitudes from regional leadership and eventually my pastor was booted out by the rich club in the church, who incidentally included much of the regional leaders. The leadership course manager incidentally was also booted out. He was a nice decent guy. Ultimately I didnt want New Frontiers theology pumped down my throat, which tbh was all the leadership course was. I left shortly after the pastor was booted out and that church fell apart, not due to my leaving but due to the stench I saw happening. As far as I’m aware it never fully recovered.
@@CHESEABUN I’m glad you’re checking what the Bible actually teaches rather than what it has been misused to teach. Also the word for tongues is the same as the word for languages. The KJV translators used tongues as that was the word that was used to describe a language, eg, he spoke in his mother tongue.
The tongues we see in the Bible doesn’t have to have to tongues of fire over their heads. That was a one time occasion, but Paul does say in 1 Corinthians about the gift of tongues in the church. This wouldn’t have been the fire over the heads, this was a symbol of the Holy Spirit imparting the gift and I dwelling believers, but it would have been a foreign language that was spoken, a real language.
There is a misunderstanding of when Paul about speaking in the tongues of angels, he was using a polemic to indicate that even if you could speak in an angelic language but did it without love then it mean nothing. In the context of the chapter you see him go on to say that if you did anything to the enth degree but without love, it was meaningless.
Check out the Strange fire conference available on RUclips at Grace community church L.A. This helped me so much, Tom Pennington’s talk especially persuaded me from the previous beliefs I held to.
Hope that helps
@@danielwarton5343 Spot on. Exactly. A tongue is a language as you say mother tongue I cant see the point of talking a load of gibberish in church that no one understands. Makes no sense. Maybe the original gifting of the Holy spirit was that they were given the ability to speak another tribes language so that the tribe could fully understand exactly everything that was spoken? That makes complete sense to me. I have also seen people say they have the gift of the Holy Spirit or under the influence bouncing around church like space bunny's or hysterics of laughter or screaming. which I found quite unsettling in the early 2000's. Surely God is a God of order not Chaos? When I have experienced the Holy Spirit it is an akin to an huge life changing awakening or affirmation or Revelation. Not a circus! The awakening happened in 1988after a prayer on my own in the car. I asked God for help in the situation I was in at that time. I clearly felt his presence in the car. Life changing! and very moving. A peace came over move which I can only describe as perfect peace! Very brief but I will never forget it, Yet I told the church I was going to about this experience Five years ago because I could not find God in Church and they said it was the Devil!! It was the final straw. It was goodbye from that moment,
Gosh where do we begin? This is STILL such a big part of certain church cultures in the U.K. My biggest problem with it is that it stops us making decisions for ourselves as adults. I still struggle with this as I leave this element of christian culture behind.
Thanks for your comment. Which specific aspects do you still struggle with?
@SamHowson making decisions for myself. "Prophecy" was a way that you could very comfortably not feel responsible for life choices or decisions. So for example with your life with regards to the tape it could be your next move to become a worship leader based on the prophetic word given. Even though this was not where you ended up! Instead of using logic, wisdom and praying you are essentially being directed by the words of others. I think one can get used to needing that. Codependance I guess! That's what I experience.
I always wanted to form a band called "Nerds of Woolwich" which would be a hidden reference to "Words of Knowledge"
I worry that much of the prophesy we see in these circles is more about fortune telling that turns our relationship with God into a transactional relationship. People are looking for their next fix and think that if we perform well we get rewarded with a word to shows us the next step. It is unfortunately turned into another example of the 'it's all about me' gospel.
This resonates. I may get the courage to share my experience in the future (not soul survivor, but similar). Thanks for this, I don't feel so isolated now
Dear Sam,
I will pray that the Spirit of Christ will continue to speak to you through the Word of God( your only source of truth) as you try and make sense of your past experiences in church.
Remember, the road to heaven is narrow and you need to pass through the gate ( Jesus ).
My husband and I, by the grace of God, woke up and recognised the voice of God in the scriptures Alone during COVID lockdown. We were questioning the fruit and much more, having the luxury of being able to step back from serving the church. We had been part of charismatic and evangelical churches both in the UK and abroad for 40 odd years. My testimony involves a very real experience of the supernatural so it was my preferred worship style with very shallow doctrine.
After I retired I decided to do a Bible training course with the Sussex gospel partnership which was really an introduction to theology and doctrine including hermeneutics etc.
My world view completely changed and light flooded into my mind and understanding of our Great God and how salvation really works through the sacrifice of His only son Jesus Christ. We could not believe how blind we had been to the false gospel that has got into large parts of the church and felt it important to repent of our behaviours and involvement over many years. ( including the prophetic nonsense of speaking into people’s lives which is a form of witchcraft) Again by the grace of God we have now found a loving and gospel led Bible believing church and although any church can fall into sin we now feel more equipped to be discerning and wise enough to know that the heart of man is deceitful but the heart of God is to rescue us from our prideful selves.
Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened unto you…..
With Christian love.
Your experience illustrates one of the many concerns that Cessationists have. Cessationism is the belief the revelatory and sign gifts of the early church were withdrawn from the church upon completion of the New Testament because they were no longer necessary for the instruction of the church. This was this historic position of the church for the next 1700 years, until the early Pentecostal movement tried to revive them 120 years ago. So, one of the many concerns we have is their abuse. "Words of knowledge" "prophecies" etc can all be abused by prophets simply because no one knows if they are really from God, or if they are from the flesh or imagination or the lusts of the 'prophet' or if they are demonic in origin. The only way to be sure is to compare them to the Bible. If they are in harmony with the Bible, why not use the Bible instead? If they're not, wouldn't you be wiser trusting the Bible instead of the prophet? As soon as you place your faith in a 'prophet' you're acknowledging that who God obviously favours him more than you, other wise God would have given you the same gift. And since God knows everything and speaks to the prophet, God can reveal your deepest and darkest secrets to the prophet, so you'd better do what the prophet says. While not all Charismatics and Pentecostals abuse this 'gift' like this, many do and some abuse it hideously. Even when Paul was writing about the early spiritual gifts, it is clear that the church in Corinth was struggling with their frequent abuse. At least with a completed Bible, we can all agree it is the word of God and then make applications to ourselves without pretending that some 'prophet' can see into our souls.
I was in a Soul Survivor style CofE church and one of the leaders used a (private) "word of knowledge" to attempt to bully me with "eternal damnation". Instead of accepting this I left the church. I didn't believe for one moment it was genuinely from God, but I still find it upsetting a decade on.
People may say that I need to "toughen up" and be humble to take the words seriously from a spiritual leader, but why should I? Why should I even go to church?
I was in a church where there was a regular stream of words of knowledge from the Pastor that revival was shortly coming to the church, and that they would be moving into a bigger building. Well to this day they are still in that building and the revival never did happen.
Imagine if we researched each congregation to see if anything happened.
My very first visit to church youth group when I was 16 had us all crammed into the smallest meeting room in the church (both halls were booked) sitting round the edge underneath and on top of tables and we went round the room praying for each person asking for words of knowledge. I found it bewildering. It was a common activity at the end of every youth group to lay hands on a person who requested prayer and to give them 'words of knowledge'. Considering how fresh most of us were to church and despite the warnings to test everything with what is said in the bible it was probably more than a little iffy. Also I totally here you when you say being at the centre of that moment is intoxicating 🙌
I also remember in the following summer (by now 17) a few of us went with the youth leader to a New Wine 'prophecy training day', which now seems utterly bizarre - who trains to receive a gift? It was literally like a follow these steps day, and did include the now questionable only lay hands on members of the same sex unless someone else of the recipients sex is also there. At the end of the day there was a session to try out we have learnt and I was feeling a little overwhelmed by pressure, I told someone that God would use them to lead people to him - a safe bet right?😂 Turns out they were a vicar who had just returned from sabbatical after burnout - I've never been able to distinguish if it was a profound moment or just being lucky with something generic.
A comment from Nigeria where this is common place in the Pentecostal and Charismatic circles (of which I am a member of.)
Some prophecies do come to pass, but a personal decision of mine is to both pray about received words and leave them up to God to bring to pass.
I see there is a danger in the falsities and I am particularly wary of it but I do not actively discourage the expression of the gifts of God because in deed I have seen them work actively both in small mundane things and in larger consequential situations.
This video was so accurate Sam 👌 A few reflections of my own:
While I believe in the prophetic - prophecy being the revealing of God’s will, God speaking truth and people speaking it on God’s behalf (as in a messenger of God), etc - I think, as you so beautifully put it, a lot of the charismatic church has cheapened prophecy to the kinds of wishy-washy words that you played on the cassette tape.
I’ve had powerful times where God has spoken directly to me and revealed something of his will or even the future; things I simply cannot explain by rational thought, things that were and are undeniably the voice and will of God.
However, I’ve probably only had a handful (if that) of times in my entire Christian walk where those words were delivered by other people, and on those occasions, the person who gave the prophetic word - like Caiaphas, the High Priest in the New Testament - thought meant one thing when it meant entirely another.
Many of those other prophetic prayer sessions I’ve sat in, in my experience at least, have been tinged with the same general wishing-washy words of ‘I see a rainbow 🌈’. I often feel that many of the words given are either misguided, made up and misunderstood at best and manipulative and manufactured at worst. A lot of those prayer/prophetic sessions at the end of church services and feel a little manufactured as well.
As you identify, for the young and/or impressionable, it can leave people wide open to all kinds of abuse or misinterpretation of what is being said. In my own zeal, I’ve given words to others (when I worked in a church and had people under me) that were (retrospectively thinking about it) way more about me than they were about them. The LORD in his goodness brought one word about for someone, to which I am eternally grateful, even though it was more about me than the other person.
I do think (here comes my favourite word) it is complicated because, as I said in the video we did about worship music, God can and does use anything, even the silly prophetic words we give in haste and from our own brokenness, to bring about his will.
If anything, at best - and I like to try and find the best in it these days if I can to bring balance and so I’m not painting a caricature or demonising the church - those prophetic prayer sessions do offer encouragement to believers more often than not. If someone brings a scripture, then at least I feel upheld by the word of God. Or if someone give me an encouragement of some kind, at least I am encouraged.
But with any of this, I think the problem is the charismatic hive mind doesn’t let people to think for themselves, encourage discernment and allow for critical thinking. (I once heard someone give a prophecy about the ‘primary colours’ and then referred to each of them: red, blue and… green! 🧐🤨 None of the leaders even blinked, while I scanned the room to catch anyone’s eye!!!).
If we simply take what were given as ‘prophetic words from the LORD’ then all kind of things can be spoken over you. Like the time someone told me, just before I went on stage to play in the worship team, ‘I think God is saying you’re only ever going to do this as a hobby’. Again, this word did actually come true in the end but I was bereft for many years because I wanted to be a professional musician. It may have proven true but it was delivered in such a flippant, unhelpful way.
I’m sure many a prophetic word has been given that has been baseless in any truth, hasn’t come from God and was entirely the concoction of someone’s well meaning imagination,
Thank you :)
I think this channels really good. I think this is a big portion of your purpose in life. God bless you.
Hi Sam,
I’m your age and was part of an evangelical church in London. I had similar experiences to those which you describe and as a teenager I went on the soul survivor camps. Who knows?- we might have sat next to each other in a big tent once upon a time.
Words of prophecy and knowledge were practiced frequently in the church and the term ‘naturally supernatural’ made it all comfortable. I have always had reservations about vague pictures, open to a range of interpretations being given with what ‘might be’ the authority of the Almighty- ‘but it could just be me, so hold it lightly’. I know that it was important to me to live a life that pleased God, in keeping with a sense of purpose or calling. It still is. I wanted affirmation that I was on the right track. I still do. I was often waiting for prayer ministry or praying for others.
I trained as an actor and only recently stopped calling myself an actor after years and years of piecemeal work which used my performance skills to greater or lesser effect.
I had a ‘picture’ given to me at the very start of my acting career (from a stranger in a field in Shepton Mallet), which was me, standing on a stage under theatrical lighting. I was about to tour with a Christian theatre company, performing and doing outreach in communities up and down the country.
This was very encouraging as you can imagine. Some years later I was given a word of knowledge that I was called to be a teacher. I kept thinking about it as work ticked along with no real sense of momentum for years. Recently an old friend reached out and asked if I’d ever thought about teaching. I’m now doing a PGCE and hoping that this is God’s plan for the next 20 years! I struggle with doubts. I’m hoping and doing my best to trust that it will work out. I should be writing an essay!
Hey, that is so very clear and honest, you'll make an incredible teacher. Thanks for taking the time to watch and reflect. All the best
I think this channel will take us all through an amazing group journey for us all as we, as a group, would have had similar experiences. I feel those who come to this channel would all walk this journey together.
Prophecy....
When I was a young adult, I was prophesied over, that I'd be married with children.
I'm 52. Still Gay🌈🌈. Still Single. No kids.
😂😂😂❤😢
We were at Spring Harvest once when someone at the front was describing a dam bursting, representing revival. Was it a coincidence that The Dambusters had been on television that afternoon? 🤔
I agree with the previous comment. I know we've chatted briefly before Sam, and, as you know, I'm questioning a lot too. I'd say though that I'm more than questioning... I've actually seen some things to be completely ridiculously unjustifiable.
I think it's (ironically and unfortunately) inevitable that we get drawn into weird novel ideas and activities when we have the awesome realisation that God created the whole universe and he actually loves ME!! ... then of course he could do anything:
He could create the world in six 24 hour periods...
There could be a secret rapture...
He might want to heal absolutely everyone who comes and gets prayed for... and if you're not healed, well, it's kind of your problem, there's a key you're yet to find; a sin you're yet to confess; or a curse your yet to break...
Oh yeah! ... and there's that massive revival that's... just around the corner!!!
But he didn't, He doesn't, and there probably isn't.
Luckily none of this has put me off being hungry for God's power and presence in my life or made me doubt any of the words of the Nicene- Constantinopolitan Creed. Thank God that there does exist a traditional, balanced exegesis and practice within the Christian world.
Apologies for the essay : )
It still all seems pretty gameshow-esque. Thanks for subscribing
@SamHowson I too listened to an old prophecy tape of mine not long back (Ivan and Isabel I believe, from Canada). Absolutely wonderful people. But looking back it was ever so vague, and too much like cold reading. But obviously God does really use people in prophetic gifts, so I can't be too critical; but I can be critical of people going beyond their actual gifting and authority and the church culture which just encourages and creates this instant super spiritual hit without the truth that, historically, actual wonder workers with actual miracles and actual prophetic giftings, were, more often than not, Christians with great maturity and ascetic discipline (sacrificial love... slaves of God).
Modern evangelical charismatic world and practice? ... largely good intentioned; partly (with others I've met or have ministered to me) subtle pride; even arrogance. If we want to strengthen, encourage and comfort one another maybe we should just speak those lovely words to one another without calling it prophecy, or that moment of imagination a vision and falling into the trap of Christian fortune telling and delusion.
Oh dear, another essay.
I very much liked the spirit in which you did this video. Keep up this valuable and timely space : )
I went to a church (one I’m still part of), which just seems really healthy compared to what you’re describing - the questioning you’re talking about was accepted, even encouraged - but it was deemed “strange” by many of my Christian friends. For example xample - when my wife and I were dating, i went along to her college Bible Study group and talked about my church (they had heard it was “different”), and my wife was later told I needed to be converted before she could marry me. Thanks for your openness.
Had to also throw this one in too: I find it curious all those prophetic words about ‘a great wave coming’ (the wave being revival or the Spirit of God coming on the nation or whatever). I wrote a song about jt called Drifted, which I’ll be putting on my next album (when I get around to recording it! 😂) which has the lyric:
…and they spoke of some great wave that would crash on these shores
But I’m still waiting for it to come
Surf’s up for me and all of the unbelievers… 😅
I'm with you, but the disciples were waiting for Christ's return too!
@@hopforward1759 I remember the wave prophesies!
"another arrow in the oddity quiver"...LOL! And also...lovely colour palette on your video! I have lots of thoughts and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences...
1) I'm wondering if you've had any therapy or counselling for everything you've been through? You don't have to answer that but you've clearly been through a lot! I don't think there are many people that escape "church hurt" (myself included) but you've been part of some serious stuff.
2) There are so many hot topics in the church and you've put your finger on a few of them (and I haven't even watched all your videos yet!)...I'm referring to worship and prophesy for starters. I think with all of these things...the stewarding of them requires the right heart motivations....and a Christ-like heart....Jesus on earth was a servant leader, humble, gentle and His mission (in part) was to reveal the heart of the Father....He was also uncompromising and didn't mince His words...but that was usually in His dealings with the religious Pharisees...not genuine believers or the hurting.
The Bible is quite clear about it's importance and urges us to eagerly desire the gift of prophesy (which is different form the "office" of the prophet). Prophesy can "go wrong" on all sorts of levels!! People can get it wrong...whether it's giving the word...the source of the word...the timing of the word...the delivery of the word....giving "information only" without the heart of love that the Father has for everyone........people can receive it wrongly.....either through ignorance (not understanding that you have to work with a prophetic word to see it's fruit...it's not usually "fortune telling")...people might not understand or know that it is always for the receiver to discern and consider whether they think it's from God and accurate...or even if it is..whether they want to accept it or not.
Prophesy, prophetic culture, prophets, the purpose and function of prophesy ....it's a huge topic!
I also think prophetic words sometimes have a "time window"....if the Lord is inviting you to be an olympic athlete...clearly you would have to partner with that word in your teens/20s and not leave it till you are 50! (that's an extreme example but you know what I mean).
People really should be taught to hear the voice of God for themselves...and it shouldn't be the case that "special people" are more of an authority on your life than you are yourself. And you should feel entirely free to bin a word (or put it in the "maybe tray") that doesn't resonate with you.
There is such a lot of mess in the prophetic world today (as there is in worship culture) but that doesn't mean I want to throw the baby out with the bath water. I want to resuscitate the baby and see it grow and thrive!
I could go on but that is ridiculously long! Keep going Sam! Keep provoking thought and conversation. This is GOOD!
Thanks, I did counselling when I worked in the church as a student youth worker - that seemed more necessary as young people relied on me. Life and work experience has eclipsed a lot the hurt caused in church. Thanks again!
I’m not a charismatic basher , but I find many people in these churches spend too much time centered on themselves and not on God .
Also I find the words of the Bible much deeper , much more inspiring and much more practical …and more beautiful …than many so called modern prophecies and words !
Thanks for your content - all very interesting. I immediately recognised the second voice of the guy on your 'tape' as I went to his large charismatic Anglican church in London 20+ years ago, (he was apart of the New Wine/Soul Survivor crowd) not a bad chap but like many, me included, caught up in too much hype around the gifts of the Spirit, which I do believe in, but of course always open to abuse. I have similarly received words and prophecies, which I kept a record of, and none of which have materialised in any recognisable way I'm 20 or so years older than you but over the last 5 years I've been reflecting on and deprogramming from Toronto et al, which, even at the time, just felt a bit off for some reason. Coming out the other side I'm far more spiritually contented. Too much NAR in the charismatic world now for me, craziness seems to have become normalised. It's difficult to find places with balance, which is a real shame as the Body of Christ is poorer for lack of space for the gifts to operate. Keep up the good work.
So many "prophets" out there give timelines and are consistently wrong. (Julie Green comes to mind). And the more they're wrong, the more rabid their followers are in defending them.
Just because you're being told what you want to hear doesn't mean it is the truth.
Near the end of the video, you ask "What's your reason and motivation for doing it?".
I get nervous when people give words of knowledge.
I wonder if we have lost sight of how serious it is to speak on behalf of God.
Should there be accountability required from those who speak on behalf of God? It might temper their enthusiasm for talking nonsense.
There are safeguarding issues to be thought through for recipients of words of knowledge.
It used to intrigue me when a prophet had to ask a person's name before giving them an 'accurate' summary of what is about to happen in their life over the next ten years.
You're absolutely right about safeguarding. Thanks for subscribing.
I came to faith in our precious lord jesus christ 7yrs ago on stpatricks day 17:3:17 funny enough,thru decades of hardcore drug addiction I cried out for God/jesus to help and he did I received the holyghost like lovely warm oil being pour in to my head neck,torso,arms legs feet it took 2mins to fill my head to my toes I wasnt brought up in church,I had just be reading the bible when I got to Samuel being told by God to go anoint david bcos God was leaving Saul,so Samuel had 7 of Jesse's son stand in front of him to pour the oil out of the horn but it didn't come out so he asked Jesse did he have anymore sons and he was told yes the youngest Las called David who was out in the field looking after the sheep so he told
Thanks again for the video Sam! Thought-provoking as always. I think prophecy can be incredibly powerful, for the reasons that you outline, particularly as it can determine the course of action that someone may choose. That's also why it's really important that any words given are Biblical - something along the lines of God loves you, sin is bad, there is always forgiveness if you repent, Jesus died that you might be saved etc. Sounded like the words you were given were meant to be encouraging and upbuilding and to give you faith?!
When it comes to more specific words about particular people/ places/ vocations etc we need to be really careful as they could be incredibly manipulative. If I remember correctly, words about people getting married were banned at Soul Survivor??
So for me, I guess some of the words I received from others have been life-influencing. Probably those that spoke into a particular situation, or that coincided with what I felt like God might be saying to me. Those that I do remember have helped give me faith for things. I also think that people calling out gifting and personality traits can be incredibly affirming. When someone who loves you says good/ encouraging stuff about you it is massive. When someone who has a controlling/ manipulative intention says stuff about you, it is toxic. The wisdom of pastoral oversight requires that the first type of prophetic word happen and that the second type don't.
Your points are well made.
My challenge is how do we realistically achieve that healthy place of 'pastoral oversight'?
I've met 'pastors' who I wouldn't trust to walk my dog (if I had a dog!), never mind entrust them to ensure wise pastoral oversight.
Probably need some good teaching. Explain how to 'weigh' prophecies, and teach people to discern; how to hold these kind of words lightly as they are given by fallible human beings.
Best of all of course is for people to grow in their own relationship with God.
If you want a more direct approach you could, of course, remind those giving prophesies that the Old Testament punishment for a false prophet was death! That should help them to add a few more hedging phrases / disclaimers when they give a word of knowledge / prophecy 😉
PS I think also that God doesn't always spoon-feed us with prophesy. What I mean by that is that prophesy may raise a subject and it's up to us to pray about it and seek the Lord for further intel! And sometimes prophesy is one part of the jigsaw and there may be other pieces.
For example....in 2010 I received a prophesy from a well known prophet that the Lord was inviting me into a season of "training and equipping". I had a well-established professional career by that point in my life and it wasn't on my radar to take a career break. So I brushed off the prophetic word as meaning a course, or conference or evening part time thing or something...but the Lord was very clear, as I prayed about it, that it was to be a full-time immersive season *gulp and double gulp and hmmmm maybe no thank you?!*....subsequent to that, the Lord lined up a whole series of events that very clearly led me to leaving my job and moving to the US for a year in 2014.
That year abroad set me up for the next decade in terms of relationships and opportunities that opened up to me and was very clearly orchestrated by God.....but it was in "seed form" in the prophetic word....and also it was an invitation...we can always say no to prophetic words.
that sounds positive. I find it pretty off when people influence others lives like that though.
The standard of prophecy in the Bible is that if God says it it will come true, if not, it’s not from God. How long will people keep giving shade to people who are often wrong.
This is really interesting stuff. Do you see this going on in other Anglican churches in England? I’m starting to get the impression these groups are everywhere and getting more popular especially in London
It happens all over the place
Hilariously, a lot of these seem to match pretty well with what you’re doing now… though the worship thing may not have worked out as they imagined. Bit like the conservative church elder who prophesied over me that I’d have a ministry using Isaiah 49 “Come out! Be free!” just as I was starting a support group for LGBT Christians…. You can read these things in so many ways and often were given an interpretation rather than taught to weigh and discern and bin.
Yes - this hits the mark. So much of a certain sort of church life is all about control and power. It the opposite of health church life - Queen Elizabeth 1 stated that she did not want to put a window into men’s souls and what you describe is the reverse. We have the spiritually immature behaving like they are a great saint, and those outside are put off by this nonsense.
Well, I was in Bible college in UK, and it was very much into all this stuff. In first term I was asked out by a visiting speaker and spoken over and apparentlyI was the apple of God's eye and lots of positive things. Term 2, I moved same college at a different campus. I began to see so many wrong things, like, they weren't teaching the Word or about Jesus, but it was mostly experiential and the teacher's personal stories. There was no real teaching about Jesus. At one session, the very same 'prophet' from campus one called me out and basically chastised me. I didn't know why at all. Think he'd forgetten how wonderful I was from his first prophecy. 😂😂 I challenged a couple of teachers when I saw the manipulation. I then went to Bible college in USA hoping someone would actually teach me the Bible. We were in Dallas, the buckle of the Bible belt. We had many many charismatic fraudsters come to speak. All very famous. It was totally disheartening. I can tell you now, 30 years on, stay FAR away from the charismatic church. The evangelical church is an absolute mess, as are churches that permit unbiblical practises like same sex marriage. C of E leaders in London appear to be strongly drawn to Ecumism specifically with the RC church. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. It's a giant mess!!!! 😢
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You may find a short work of fiction written in 1985, by Tim Parks to be of interest. "Tongues of Flame". A normal church of england family is ripped apart by charismatic-crazy, resulting in estrangement, death, etc - All told from the point of view of a young teenage boy. It's three hour read. You might have to order it from Waterstones.