You can't count the time while it's milling. It's time you are free because your machine is working for you. If you want to count that time, you should also count the 2-4 weeks it takes to get the PCBs you order.
And setup/layout time is decreased for the 2nd and following boards so you really can’t count that. Would be the same as ordering PCBs from overseas, that software has setup/layout time for the first board as well. There really is no comparison when doing multiple boards, don’t try to do it by hand.
1. Use better bits. They will not tear copper and leave clean cut surface. 2. Use autoleveller and auto Z zero feature. 3. You can mill pcbs with 500 feedrate. 4. Mill with 0.1 depth.
I've been using a $200 CNC from China to mill PCBs for a few months now. There was a pretty big learning curve to get over (granted I was also new to KiCad so that definitely added to the difficulty) but the results are pretty good. Autoleveling is very important, but Chilipeppr makes that pretty easy to do. I tried etching boards first, but that never worked very well for me. Summary: If you're looking for a way to make nice PCBs quickly, I think a minimal CNC is the way to go. Keep in mind, no board house can get you your PCBs in a few hours - a CNC machine can.
Your machine needs tramming. That will fix most of it. But for perfect results you will need auto probing too. I completely disagree with your conclusion though. You have a lot of practice with other methods, and very little with this method. Once you get the hang of it you will make them much faster and much more accurate. Also you forget the fact that in 15-60 min of milling you will have your finished product, NO waiting for order and shipment etc.
But it takes me just 30 min independently of the size of PCB to etch it. I use toner transfer method with a laminator. Stable accuracy is 0.2 mm and can go down to 0.15 mm if I'm more careful. And the price is lower than buying router bits. Personally I don't understand the reason to mill the PCBs...
Ričardas Leščinskas engraving bits are cheap and easily replaceable. Milling appeals to me because it doesn't use chemicals (I can't have most etchants in my work environment), it only cost around 200$ for the machine, and it's a single step process (put the board down and run the gcode).
Ričardas Leščinskas- i agree, and with practice, a laser printer and an iron for clothes can be used for some pretty accurate toner transfer onto a pcb, then you etch it and its faster than the mill. I even make my own enchants (ex: hcl and h2o2) dirt cheap and works better than ferric chloride because I can see the pcb being etched.
I had access to a "proper" PCB mill at a previous job. To get around the z-height / board flatness issue it had a nylon collar around the tool which you would lock off to expose just enough tip for the width of cut you wanted (~0.2 mm or whatever) and then sort of de-clutch the z-axis so that it wouldn't get too upset about motor stalls whilst doing the z-plunges. Worked every time. You could build something similar yourself, but you'd either need to use a servo for the z-axis with a very de-tuned controller so it basically didn't care about never reaching it's target, ideally something P-mode only (very easy to implement with a cheap micro-controller.) Or alternatively really exaggerate your plunges and use relative position Z-lifts so that lost steps don't matter (easily done with a DIY post-processor on the g-code.) While I'm waffling, I also use to generate ~3 tool-paths, with progressively larger tool diameters, and run them all without ever changing the tool. This will preserve the finer tracks / pads but give you a bit more isolation on the other parts, acting a bit like a solder mask. You can run the 2 / 3rd passes much faster as they can afford to be a bit sloppy.
Clever idea with the collar! But coldn't you just "hang" the milling motor so it can be pulled up but not pushed by the z mechanism? And let the weight of the motor provide the downward force?
I suppose you could if you were building a dedicated PCB mill, you could probably even just use a solenoid, although it would be a bit hard on the tools when you dropped them. Problem is it's wouldn't be much good as anything other than a PCB mill., even drilling would probably be difficult.
There's a plugin for eagle (or rather user language program) called pcb-gcode using which you can create gcode files from eagle directly. You also need an external program for autolevelling. I don't understand why would it take as much time as in the video, my pcbs are usually finished within 10 minutes including drilling.
I've used an LPKF PCB mill in my last job doing prototype PCB's for student projects and it's like looking after a poorly child! The spindle had to be checked and cleaned everyday, the bed had to level at each run, the milling bits were expensive but gave the best quality. However when you set it running and came back to find the milling bit had broke or PCB was a mess, it really put your day back! The experience put me off wanting my own PCB mill and am now happy with etching using the timer transfer method.
Since you are using a V Tip - the lower your Z Cut is, the wider the cut gets. FlatCam has a calculator to compensate for this. If your bit is 0.1 mm and has an angle of say 30 degrees and you are cutting down to .12mm you need to enter these values in the calculator. You will then need to replace the 0.1 diameter with whatever the calculator throws at you. This will result in perfect PCB's everytime. Personally I prefer to cut a little deeper since as you said boards - especially the single sided tend to be warped. Oh and while my CNC is milling a board I am usually soldering the previously milled board - so actually it is a time saver. To speed things up I even installed a vacuum table so that I don't even need to tie down the boards during milling.
I bought a cheap CNC from china, like u mention at the end, and it works really good, it even has a super easy to use auto level probe, to solve the multiple deeps problem. so far, it has been better than i expected. Im really happy with it, and I can make PCB faster and better now.
In our 4th year university course we designed and milled our through-hole PIC controller. Were it not for the experience of our TA's it helping us with all the possible snags we would have had similar issues. You will get better the more you practice and you will find it's not so bad.
Paint the pcb. Use a spring loaded engraving bit (drag bit) to remove the paint. Put the board in ferric chloride. Pull out and remove the paint with acetone. Perfect results every time. And by the way, you're milling WAY TOO SLOW
I have ordered one of these from cnc-aid.com/ Not cheap but I have read good reviews online. I aim to use it to remove resist but it is early days in my learning curve. We shall see as it is not here yet
you can just paint the traces with permanent marker and then just etch - I used to use it as a etch resistant and it works quite well. although you have the common problems of etching: no drilling, you have to very carefully watch how much time you live the board in the etchant, etc.
We doing this all the time in university, I'm using eagle and special design rules for milled PCBs. It's working well for through hole and SMD parts, we also mill PCBs für sot332 oder LQFP packages up to 256 pins.
In the company where I work, we've got professional engraving machines and sometimes we make proto pcbs with excellent results: 0.2 mm of clearance between copper.
It all comes down to application. Sure, the milling process uses time, but it doesn't use the user's time. Keep an eye on it, and have fun working on the next part of the project. As far as the results, I think that proper calibration can make the process far more reliable. If you just want the PCB, then a professional PCB service is probably the best. But if you want a PCB in a short period of time, either etching or milling may be useful.
I am teaching an RF electronics class this semester and I am planning on making a series of small "demo boards" to go along with lab activities. I need to make up 16 copies of the same little circuits, so I'm hoping a PCB mill will allow me to make these "in-house" fairly quickly and at low cost. The PCB's will be very simple, with a single RF amplifier, a power divider, a matching network, filter, or mixer.
I made some boards with a professional system (LPKF ProtoMat S63) and it worked great and fast. The integrated tool changer makes it even more comfortable (cutting width, vias). The results are excellent, even for small tracks. For a "generic" CNC machine you'll need either a flat surface (double sided tape) or some kind of calibration. The correct tip makes a huge difference as well. All in all a PCB milling machine is often almost as fast as etching but a lot cleaner.
It’s taken a long time to get consistently good results, but I prefer the PCBs I make on my CNC Mill because I like the sense of accomplishment of doing it on my own from start to finish. I also use UV curable solder mask to finish them off.
I find just a little bit of erroneous bias in your math. You included the time to do PCB layout on the CNC side, but you didn't factor in the time it took for you to plan the layout on the perfboard. It probably wouldn't have added much to the time it took for you to assemble the circuit on perfboard, but I don't believe that there wasn't *some* planning involved there, as pretty as your circuits look on perfboard. :P
Calyo Delphi first that, and also you have to solder active for 3h, while the 1 hour of the miling process is automatic, so you could do things in that hour, too
From your video it become obvious that the Z-axis probing is essential. And the tools quality is also very important. I think that with more experience you will have much better and consistent result. I saw many tutorials with cheap chinese CNCs and the result was very nice.
We did some PCBs for an arduino project at university. At first we tried to mill the PCB as well. With a vacuum table it’ worked well. But the whole PCB needs to be bigger to accommodate the milling bit size. Later we switched to etching. Way more convenient and much better results.
So I bought one of those CNC 3018 machines for 120€ on eBay last month. Including a Laser, which works quite well for laser-cutting 4mm plywood. Regarding my PCB settings: 30° 0.1mm V-bit (the cheapos from eBay), cut depth 0.05mm, use candle software and make a height map first. 50mm/min xy feed at first but 100 also seems fine (other suggest even 500 down here), 30mm/min plunge speed, spindle speed at max. I use flatCAM and use 2 passes with 35% overlap and design with 0.5mm traces and clearance in easyEDA.
I got a "T8" engraver as featured by various other channels. As supplied it was utterly unfit for circuit board engraving, as instead of a chuck it had a brass tube with grub screws at both ends which didn't hold the bit straight - I moved the Z down and it cut a little circle. I replaced it with an actual chuck which holds the bit much better at the expense of another 10-15mm of Z-axis space. I made a basic probe from a broken end-mill with a switch epoxied onto the end and I love it very very much!
I had the exact same problems you described on my 3020 chinesium cnc. What I found is that auto levelling software is a MUST. After I got used to the workflow i've been turning out some excellent pcb's (consistently). Just my 2 cents
I completely agree with your final evaluation, but that is exactly why PCB milling machines exist! My school only uses milled PCB's (I've been doing it for 4 years, and only this year touched a breadboard) for projects, and every one turns out alright if designed properly.
Ok Greatscott, I been a hobbyist all my life, creating my own PCB, circuits, projects, DIY, etc etc. Producing PCB using the conventional laser print on photo paper, then flat iron it on the blank PCB, etch it, rinse then spray on it with insulation varnish is always my number 1 procedure on how to make a PCB that even SMD components was my way to go. Though it is really messy and corrosive due to the fact that I am using ferric chloride to etch my copper clad. Never failed me. So using CNC (tried it too on my home made CNC machine from salvage printer and photo copier parts) also do failed on me.
Have you tried PCB toner transfer method? It is very cost effective for home prototypes, even with 2 layer boards. You have to fiddle with the design to reduce vias though.
Chemical etch all the way baby! I discovered that with an oil based paint marker (sharpie brand) you can simply draw your circuit on the copper board and it protects from the etch beautifully! I'm new to this and really wanted a CNC but after learning to etch boards with marker- the whole process takes an HR or less I don't think I'll be buying that dream CNC for milling although one day hope I can afford a CNC that cuts big pieces of metal of course! Thanks for the video I will be making my first instructable on the paint marker etch process soon as simple as it is it would be cool to share it! -Jesse
I find the quickest way is to use light sensitive PCB stock and a selfmade UV light box. I use the CNC only to drill the holes and cut the board to size automatically. Any 160 x 100 mm will take about 1 hour to make from scratch... and no wrong connections! - Just as tip. Do not buy the overpriced developer. Use Natriumhydroxide as developer. You can make your own by buying standard drain cleaner (pellets!) at any pharmacy. Mix 30 grams in 2 liter of water. 2 Liter of developer for about 20 cent. Develop time = 10-20 seconds.
Made my first milled circuit board yesterday, a shield for a shift register for easier breadboard prototyping, using one of the cheap Banggood engravers. (They're better as a training device than as a useful tool IMO.) Nine pins, eight SMD LEDs and eight SMD resistors. Gave up trying to get meaningful results from Kicad and resorted to paper and pen sketch and hand calculations. Then typed in Gcode instructions line-by-line to accurately mark the header pin positions and part of the isolation paths, and used the jog controls to manually carve the rest. Quite happy with the result though!
@@JohnBailey39 I recently did this for engraving stainless steel with tracks way thinner (0,1mm) than what I would use for a circuit board. Works like a charm if you do it right, as with anything else..
nice video, I use the following process with a 3018PRO (cheap but upgraded spindle to 300W) - Draw single side design on Sprint Layout - Export as Gerber file - Open Flatcam and import the file (same process and settingS) - Export CNC job - open Candle and home the bit with probe (without probe you'll never manage a good board) - Create Heightmap - Start job after map created Optional load drill holes file from flatcam and use same heightmap
I am a huge fan of pcb milling. I bought a £600 4 axis machine from china which did take about a week of overhauling to make it function (configure for linuxcnc, add limit switches, replace the appealing excuse for a spindle etc). The bed was extruded aluminium and not very flat so I added a 3/4" piece of mdf held down with recessed roofing bolts. I then milled the entire work area with a dremel milling bit in the spindle to create a sacrificial but very flat surface. I hold down the copper clad board with double sided tape and as long as i am careful to avoid ripples in the tape the top of the board is parallel with the bed. i do not use auto levelling. i have installed it but I stopped using it because firstly it is time consuming but more crucially if something goes wrong during the milling (like a broken tip) you cannot re-probe as there is a chance that it will probe into an already cut area which will result in no electrical contact and therefore will carry on driving the spindle into the board with very unhappy results. I use eagle and pcbgcode. both these applications are good but not without fairly steep learning curves especially for those of us who prefer mac to pc (i think anyway) I have found that the supply of copper clad board is also a factor. I recently purchased 10 small boards from eBay and half of them snapped successive milling bits as soon as they touched it but when running the same program on the same machine on the same day with a new bit from the same pack it worked fine thus I deduce that not all copper clad boards are equal. I will from now on use only trusted sources (g00fie on eBay.co.uk is my current goto place for this and other electronic stuff) in short I conclude that milling can be made to work extremely well but is quite a delicate operation.
Making PCBs is a waste of time for the one-off project I do. I use the perfboard just like you and I love it. I bought every imaginable SMD to DIP converter boards and it costed me like $60. I have a 100 of every imaginable foot-print. I just mount the SMD ICs that I can not find in DIP packages, and no problems to report. The beauty of perfboard construction, is that I can make modifications on the spot and even move sections to another spot on the PCB and it looks good too. At least I like the look! I am sure it would take me longer to build something using the PCB approach. Not to mention the cost of blanks, acid, blah blah blah. Or in this case, a CNC machine. When you add all the bits and "Optional" pieces you really need to make something like this work, you are well into hundreds more than the base price of any CNC bare-bone system. my 2 cents...
I have one of those cheap chinese machines. It's first job was to cut replacement parts for the slightly larger cheap machine I bought at the same time. I've used it with FlatCam and Chilipepr with varying success, mostly due to needing to buy more bits. Auto-leveling is time consuming but worth it and easy to implement.
I don't like your final conclusion, you kept the first conclusion the same even after acknowledging the error was from a problem that was easily fixable
Great video, I have been making PCB's with my small cheap Chines CNC for a while now, some programs work better than others but no problem in cutting the pcb, one thing however it is very important to do auto leveling, I have leveled my working area by cutting it flat to it's self and also using the auto leveling " Probing " the PCB's come out perfect.
Hands on versus hands off time is what is important here. Particularly if you plan to make several. I have a CNC machine and have done this with good success. Usually for making PCB for LED controllers and PDB for my R/C stuff. But the real issue is that with the CNC you can do at best two layer circuits by using double sided Printed Circuit Board Blanks. I have not done that since just thinking of getting the two sides to align would be a quite difficult. Single layer however is a synch! Yes I would like to see cheap cnc video. Great Job!!!
A. Replace those weak grub screws with short M3 screws...they engage more threads, can hold better and are easier to tighten B. Using an electrical leveling setup would compensate for the change in heights, meaning much better milling C. I have a 3018 CNC inbound...wooo!!!! Great video...keep em coming!
Currently I am creating my own PCBs with a Proxxon MF70 which I have upgraded to CNC. I'm using flat cam for g code, my own software for sending g code and on the other site I used the GRBL software. It works very well for me and I like that I can get my PCBs instant. And it is in my case more instant than in yours, because I'm using a higher speed for the isolation milling and after that I will change my tool for milling all holes and cutting out the PCB. For smd isolation milling I use a engrave bit with a cut depth of 0,072mm which results in a width of 0,24mm. For other parts I am using a depth up to 0,15mm which leads to a width of 0,5mm. For milling holes and cutting the pcb I am using a 0.8mm bit. I think one of the biggest efforts is that I can use the "unused" space as gnd layer, and this will allow me to make my PCBs simpler because I have not spending time on finding the best way for my gnd connection. Beside of that, my PCBs will getting smaller. And I actually needet only one time more than one PCB, and in this case it was easier to build the whole thing new instead of fixing the old board (one component dies).
It was just a problem with the schematics and there where pieces that are not connected to anything (more than one) and i just wanted to know what to connect with what
GreatScott! It was just a problem with the schematics and there where pieces that are not connected to anything (more than one) and i just wanted to know what to connect with what
Dear GreatScott!, I have received my "0.1 mm engraving bits" and shall proceed with a small PCB SMD test on my 3-in-1 WanHao/PowerSpec/Duplicator i3 v2 to see how the 3D printed Flex Shaft Dremel attachment will handle the milling process. I suspect that even with the Z and Y braces, there will not be enough rigidity in the frame for this task. However, with the Y-axis alignment mod and printer bed braces ( to keep the bed still with CNC operations like "scratch-engraving" or CNC drilling") I was able to successfully produce a 2 layer PCB 14 x 16cm with ±0.25 mm accuracy across the PCB (X-axis). Used my 3D printer to CNC drill the through-holes and 0.5 mm VIA's (416 holes in all!). I also used my 3D printer to "engrave" the traces with isolation "routing" using a spring loaded sharpened steel 8mm rod salvaged from an old inkjet. I have wanted to try also the milling approach with this setup and shall soon do so. I shall also produce a video about this subject using a 3D printer as also a CNC drill/mill/laser engraver( or cutter).
I am regularly using my cheap mdf homemade CNC machine with impressive results and much faster. My suggestions are: - use autoleveling is a must. bCNC program provides all you need including manual tool changes for drilling different diameters - use double sided scotch. Never clamps. - press the pcb to firmly attach it to the scotch - your feedrate is way too low. Make zig zag pattern tests to find the optimum for your bits. - i use eagle with pcb-gcode and i typically make 3 passes to enlarge the insulation of the traces. For example the arduino severino board with 3 passes, drilling with tool changing and cutting of board takes less than 1h
I have a home made cnc machine, and I use it for smd and for THT also. It is good for prototyping, I always make a prototype before I order cheap pcbs from China. If you make a little mistake, and you have to re-order your pcb, it takes some weeks... CNC is not as easy as a nob might think at the first time. It takes a lot of working hours to learn all the things. For example the right gcode generation, the tools, the correct tool settings, the milling program etc. Gcode leveler is a good way to correct the pcb's curves. I use it always before starting milling.
You can etch your own like you mentioned, then use a solder mask and expose it to certain lights and it will look just like the professional ones you mentioned
Yes I have a low budget pcb milling machine and I have beautiful results after some modification and test. You must use a software to level the plate of your cnc + pcb! After that you can engrave at 0.05mm only to remove the copper and isolate the trace, is a lot better if you put some oil during the engraving process!
Nice demo! The upside, once calibration is secure, you don’t have to waste your time watching the execution of the milling and drilling. That time could be spent watching Sponge Bob, or counting all the bees in the hive, or the actual density of a black hole! However, getting the pcb’s done professionally really frees up your time. Cheers 🍻
I agree. Handmade THT soldering is way faster and easier once you get practice. Neverthless, everyday we get newer IC's available only as SMD, thus if we want to produce a SMD prototype fast then CNC is the best option.
Hey, mate. I have tried it on my CNC multiple times and have had some success but I agree it is noisy slow and has mixed results. The auto leveller works well in Mach3 with a probe input. I have gone back to toner transfers and etching. Great video as always. Cheers Brett
I own a "cheap chinese" CNC mill. CNC milling is an art as much as science. It took me many attempts to get an acceptable settings for PCB milling. You could definitely increase your milling feedrate. I use around 800mm/min speed, single pass with 0.15mm cutting depth on a 30 degree V bit. I could make the CNC drill the through holes after a tool change. Would often get a good PCB in just 10 minute of milling. Saves loads of time compared to wiring on a prototype board, especially with a complex circuit.
I just got a TOP DIRECT CNC From Amazon, for intended use of Milling PCB's and Project housings. For larger PCB's to get the board perfectly flat use Ample Double sided tape, And light use of clamps as will cause it to bend, Flat type PCB Spindles are best for the job but any mistakes will destroy the bit. But the work is much finer, The machine i got also has the laser port so making a small laser holding bracket it can Also Etch wood And carve with laser.. Its a nice way to begin CNC Work.
My bet for better results is on the bit you chose and the fixtures . Awesome video and no to the review that you were asking about in the pinned comment. Love to see more projects. Subscribing
I'm too old school for any of this new tech or SMD components. Back in the day, I just used a marker pen on the PCB and etched it with ferric chloride then drilled the holes freehand. :)
Great video! You are right, for simple projects (and when you need only one board) perfboard will often be faster. I find it a bit sad that your first PCB milling experience turned out that disappointing. I also mill my PCBs, using flatCAM for the gerbers and my DIY CNC mill. I use a 45° bit, 0.2mm cutting depth, 4mm/sec @ 15000rpm, and the results look perfect. Having the PCB absolutely flat is a must of course, 0.1mm height difference matters.
this comment section is full of good info... I'm using a cheap cnc machine from china, I don't have such fine traces on my boards though, so I'm not running into the issues you're having. Since you've invested in the X-Carve I'd say it's especially worth putting in the time to figure out how to get a quality board out of it; I'm sure that with the right bits and technique it can handle those fine traces with no problem. Also it didn't really seem fair to count the time for installing and setting up the software since you only need to do that once. The way I see it, once you've figured out the entire process and gotten your mill calibrated properly, all you need to do to make a board is design it in autodesk (or similar program) which you can do on a laptop whenever you have free time, and then when you're ready to work on your project you just send the board to the CNC and let it work while you prepare your soldermask and components
I can only say, that I successfully use a cheap Chinese CNC engraver to produce through hole PCB's (3 AXIS 3020T). Agreed it is only worth doing if you want multiple boards and it is critical to have a level bed. But I just don't have an issue with uneven copper boards as you mention, maybe I have been lucky with my supplier/manufacturer I guess. What seems to work for me is to cut tracks with a 10 degree bit 0.1/0.2mm (the ends of the cheap Chinese 0.1 bits have a tendency to break off so investing in some decent quality bits is a good idea. Thanks for the video, although personally I have had better luck. All the best
For cheap CNC3018 (under GBP 200) I used 60 feedrate, but the most important part of the process is heightmap (I use GRBLcontrol aka candle). This will a take a while to do map measuring height on multiple points in both X and Y axises but it will adjust height in your program at specified points (measured during creating a heightmap) so your milling ends up with cosistent deepness. Another thing is that it take so much time only on the beggining, after you get to know all the apps you can run your project from scheme to ready PCB much faster, you can do many PCB cheaper than ordering them and you do not have to wait.
I have a cheap cnc machine that I brought just to make PCB and I just prefer to wait for jlcpcb to make it and ship. I had to upgrade the woodpecker controller that came with it to allow me to update to the newer version of grbl so I could use bed level height mesh option and this made a big big difference to the overall quality, but it was still a lot of messing about and I found I had to work with larger tracks along with a actual pcb milling bit instead of the v-bit if I wanted guaranteed results. Then had problems with tracks between pads ect. So it was ok for very simple projects, but then I would just make it up with perf board just as quick like you have already said. I do have something to make and I was thinking of giving it another try as soon as I have a few days to play with it again.
for prototyping I usually use equivalent through hole components where possible and if I can't get a particular part as a through hole I'll solder some legs to the smd. I rarely need to do it to more than one component so it adds maybe 10 minutes to the process.
My CNC runs into the same issues. Leveling the spoiler board will help. What I've been experimenting with lately is spray painting the board and using a laser to etch the traces. Then dropping it into ferric chloride to finish the etch. I also agree that you're milling way too slow for copper boards. There's not a lot of physical resistance in the cut you're making. A faster cut should produce a cleaner edge as you'll be cutting more than rubbing the surface. I think with a little more practice, you'll be getting better results.
Got a good chuckle from all the bits getting mixed up when the box was opened! :-) I can't really understand the need to mill your own board when you can order the boards professionally made so cheaply. I like the perf board for prototyping, but other than that, it's hard to beat the online services...
Yes i had a 2418 small cnc from china and it works really well i use CA glue to hold the pcb to a piece of flat mdf it works great but after many failed attempts
I received the cheapest CNC I found, a 3010 model and it mills through hole PCBs beautifully. I have a lot of experience with bigger home made CNCs and CAM software though.
Two suggested methods could improve your results. One would be to face off a sacrificial spoil board(MDF) using the router to generate its own flat and parallel surface on which to mount the PC boards prior to engraving. Another would be to consider a vacuum fixture made on the router to hold the PC board flat without clamps in the way.
I have been using a cheap chinese cnc3040 machines at my work for nearly 2 years mostly for creating prototype pcbs. As GreatScott showed it is not an upgrade for time wise. But on the other hand i can load the gcode to the machine and do some other work while it mills the pcb. From experience, milling pcbs doesnt have perfect outcomes when you use cheap chinese machine but they really get the work done. From the material aspect, although normally pcbs should have copper layer around 35um thickness, they really vary from manufacturer. And if the milling bit is not sharp enough the copper usually plastered (i am not sure its the right word) and cannot be milled. Due to this, i usually set my milling depth as 0.1mm while thinking about the milling angle of the bit. For me overall, its good to reproduce same board easly when needed again.
I went through the same pains as you have shown with a China CNC 6040 machine with Mach software and flatcam. I personally found the process slow and open to error and you must level the PCB and use touch probing on the machine before each PCB run. I find it better to keep the temperature around the cutter cool using a air stream. Its good for milling holes and for larger traces and round or odd shaped PCB are simple to do. I found that the less pointed tools, (shallow angles), cutting a bit deeper worked well and you can move a bit faster while milling. Through hole and smd are both OK with the CNC I think as the hole drilling is quicker than using a manual drill. You can leave the machine running and it will complete the process with out over processing like etching will do. All that said I have gone back to chemicals as its very fast, (10 mins or so start to end), and is perfect for very fine and complex boards and double sided is easier.
I think their are several variables to this with regards to leveling, the level of the PCB, the machines levels, the bit depth, the bit diameters, and G-code. Reminds me a lot of the first 3D printers, you have to make sure everything is corrects for a good print. We didn’t have auto leveling platforms, and to print at a 0.1 was a rare achievement but could be done if the machine was set correctly. This usually involved the stock machine being upgraded in many ways before you would get consistent results. Probably the same issue with cheap CNC milking machines.
I had an expensive (for me) CNC machine for about 8 years. It worked well, but had to auto level every time. Then I ordered a $299 Chinese one and it works surprisingly well. I don't even have to auto-level the bed, and the traces are good enough for very fine 0.02 inch traces. I definitely prefer it to hand-soldering on perf board. Also you forgot that you can do other things while the board is being milled. So that time isn't exactly comparable.
I only once used a PCB CNC during an internship in 9th grade, and everything went smoothly there. Although the machine was a completely different price class from yours, probably in the five digit range.
Ralphie Vigg probably. I remember it being quite a lot faster than the one shown in the video. A transparent cover plus built in vacuum is a must in any kind of professional setting, too. The guy who was responsible for my internship said he much preferred the milling over etching for single prototyping, it's far less of a mess. And as most of his boards were unique anyways, re rarely used the etching station they had.
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Anyone interested in a review of such a "cheap" CNC machine from China?
GreatScott! Meeee
GreatScott! Yes pls
Definately Me
every content from you is good content
Yes
You can't count the time while it's milling. It's time you are free because your machine is working for you.
If you want to count that time, you should also count the 2-4 weeks it takes to get the PCBs you order.
Thoughtful response. Factual response. This. This is it chief.
And setup/layout time is decreased for the 2nd and following boards so you really can’t count that. Would be the same as ordering PCBs from overseas, that software has setup/layout time for the first board as well. There really is no comparison when doing multiple boards, don’t try to do it by hand.
You have to be watching the CNC machine anyway just in case something goes wrong. I've done a lot of PCB milling.
@@raulcortes937 I watch it 1, maybe 2 cycles, but if those worked out I just walk away and let the machine do it's thing.
Gustav Ferdman I disagree, your milling bit can break, or degrade, you can’t be sure your pcb is perfectly flat... you need to watch it.
1. Use better bits. They will not tear copper and leave clean cut surface.
2. Use autoleveller and auto Z zero feature.
3. You can mill pcbs with 500 feedrate.
4. Mill with 0.1 depth.
Hi, how I can search for better bits? give me some clues please! thanks. Autoleveller and auto z zero are features of the software?
@@cdsplus1 grblControl has this autoleveller feature. ruclips.net/video/tK5Amg-Ye58/видео.html
@@cdsplus1 I wanna know that too. Maybe regular carbide bit with 60 degree angle?
@@dzervas Take a look at high quality ''Flute Spiral Engraving V-Bit 30 degree'. I've been using this little monster and, til now, it works.
I've been using a $200 CNC from China to mill PCBs for a few months now. There was a pretty big learning curve to get over (granted I was also new to KiCad so that definitely added to the difficulty) but the results are pretty good. Autoleveling is very important, but Chilipeppr makes that pretty easy to do. I tried etching boards first, but that never worked very well for me. Summary: If you're looking for a way to make nice PCBs quickly, I think a minimal CNC is the way to go. Keep in mind, no board house can get you your PCBs in a few hours - a CNC machine can.
Your machine needs tramming. That will fix most of it. But for perfect results you will need auto probing too. I completely disagree with your conclusion though. You have a lot of practice with other methods, and very little with this method. Once you get the hang of it you will make them much faster and much more accurate. Also you forget the fact that in 15-60 min of milling you will have your finished product, NO waiting for order and shipment etc.
agree.
But it takes me just 30 min independently of the size of PCB to etch it. I use toner transfer method with a laminator. Stable accuracy is 0.2 mm and can go down to 0.15 mm if I'm more careful. And the price is lower than buying router bits. Personally I don't understand the reason to mill the PCBs...
Ričardas Leščinskas engraving bits are cheap and easily replaceable. Milling appeals to me because it doesn't use chemicals (I can't have most etchants in my work environment), it only cost around 200$ for the machine, and it's a single step process (put the board down and run the gcode).
Ričardas Leščinskas- i agree, and with practice, a laser printer and an iron for clothes can be used for some pretty accurate toner transfer onto a pcb, then you etch it and its faster than the mill. I even make my own enchants (ex: hcl and h2o2) dirt cheap and works better than ferric chloride because I can see the pcb being etched.
Reported you idiot get off the idiot you spammer and everyone report this dude he is a disgrace
Just bought a cheap CNC3018. I'm impressed, and happy. After a few hours testing and adjusting this and that, my pcbs are wonderful.
Great video. Showing mistakes is more valuable to me than just positive results. We can learn what problems to avoid.
I had access to a "proper" PCB mill at a previous job.
To get around the z-height / board flatness issue it had a nylon collar around the tool which you would lock off to expose just enough tip for the width of cut you wanted (~0.2 mm or whatever) and then sort of de-clutch the z-axis so that it wouldn't get too upset about motor stalls whilst doing the z-plunges. Worked every time.
You could build something similar yourself, but you'd either need to use a servo for the z-axis with a very de-tuned controller so it basically didn't care about never reaching it's target, ideally something P-mode only (very easy to implement with a cheap micro-controller.) Or alternatively really exaggerate your plunges and use relative position Z-lifts so that lost steps don't matter (easily done with a DIY post-processor on the g-code.)
While I'm waffling, I also use to generate ~3 tool-paths, with progressively larger tool diameters, and run them all without ever changing the tool. This will preserve the finer tracks / pads but give you a bit more isolation on the other parts, acting a bit like a solder mask. You can run the 2 / 3rd passes much faster as they can afford to be a bit sloppy.
Clever idea with the collar! But coldn't you just "hang" the milling motor so it can be pulled up but not pushed by the z mechanism? And let the weight of the motor provide the downward force?
I suppose you could if you were building a dedicated PCB mill, you could probably even just use a solenoid, although it would be a bit hard on the tools when you dropped them. Problem is it's wouldn't be much good as anything other than a PCB mill., even drilling would probably be difficult.
There's a plugin for eagle (or rather user language program) called pcb-gcode using which you can create gcode files from eagle directly. You also need an external program for autolevelling. I don't understand why would it take as much time as in the video, my pcbs are usually finished within 10 minutes including drilling.
"I don't understand why would it take as much time as in the video" Maybe because is a noob?
I've used an LPKF PCB mill in my last job doing prototype PCB's for student projects and it's like looking after a poorly child! The spindle had to be checked and cleaned everyday, the bed had to level at each run, the milling bits were expensive but gave the best quality. However when you set it running and came back to find the milling bit had broke or PCB was a mess, it really put your day back! The experience put me off wanting my own PCB mill and am now happy with etching using the timer transfer method.
Since you are using a V Tip - the lower your Z Cut is, the wider the cut gets. FlatCam has a calculator to compensate for this. If your bit is 0.1 mm and has an angle of say 30 degrees and you are cutting down to .12mm you need to enter these values in the calculator. You will then need to replace the 0.1 diameter with whatever the calculator throws at you. This will result in perfect PCB's everytime. Personally I prefer to cut a little deeper since as you said boards - especially the single sided tend to be warped. Oh and while my CNC is milling a board I am usually soldering the previously milled board - so actually it is a time saver. To speed things up I even installed a vacuum table so that I don't even need to tie down the boards during milling.
I bought a cheap CNC from china, like u mention at the end, and it works really good, it even has a super easy to use auto level probe, to solve the multiple deeps problem. so far, it has been better than i expected. Im really happy with it, and I can make PCB faster and better now.
In our 4th year university course we designed and milled our through-hole PIC controller. Were it not for the experience of our TA's it helping us with all the possible snags we would have had similar issues. You will get better the more you practice and you will find it's not so bad.
Paint the pcb. Use a spring loaded engraving bit (drag bit) to remove the paint. Put the board in ferric chloride. Pull out and remove the paint with acetone. Perfect results every time. And by the way, you're milling WAY TOO SLOW
Can you recommend an engraving bit (spring loaded)? I cannot find one on amazon
I have ordered one of these from cnc-aid.com/
Not cheap but I have read good reviews online.
I aim to use it to remove resist but it is early days in my learning curve. We shall see as it is not here yet
you can just paint the traces with permanent marker and then just etch - I used to use it as a etch resistant and it works quite well. although you have the common problems of etching: no drilling, you have to very carefully watch how much time you live the board in the etchant, etc.
Wegstr has it@@bumbarabun
You can generate height map to compensate height inconsistency
We doing this all the time in university, I'm using eagle and special design rules for milled PCBs. It's working well for through hole and SMD parts, we also mill PCBs für sot332 oder LQFP packages up to 256 pins.
In the company where I work, we've got professional engraving machines and sometimes we make proto pcbs with excellent results: 0.2 mm of clearance between copper.
It all comes down to application. Sure, the milling process uses time, but it doesn't use the user's time. Keep an eye on it, and have fun working on the next part of the project. As far as the results, I think that proper calibration can make the process far more reliable. If you just want the PCB, then a professional PCB service is probably the best. But if you want a PCB in a short period of time, either etching or milling may be useful.
you need to level the deck of your cnc. you will have much better results
I am teaching an RF electronics class this semester and I am planning on making a series of small "demo boards" to go along with lab activities. I need to make up 16 copies of the same little circuits, so I'm hoping a PCB mill will allow me to make these "in-house" fairly quickly and at low cost. The PCB's will be very simple, with a single RF amplifier, a power divider, a matching network, filter, or mixer.
8:03 Leave your farts
i thought that too
You have to be native in English to hear this out.
Being Russian native speaker I didn't heart "fart" :)))
BUAHAHAH!!!!
I guess he meant brain farts...
How's your German, TWL?
I made some boards with a professional system (LPKF ProtoMat S63) and it worked great and fast. The integrated tool changer makes it even more comfortable (cutting width, vias). The results are excellent, even for small tracks. For a "generic" CNC machine you'll need either a flat surface (double sided tape) or some kind of calibration. The correct tip makes a huge difference as well. All in all a PCB milling machine is often almost as fast as etching but a lot cleaner.
3:22 I liked that honesty part :)
The golden moment
It’s taken a long time to get consistently good results, but I prefer the PCBs I make on my CNC Mill because I like the sense of accomplishment of doing it on my own from start to finish. I also use UV curable solder mask to finish them off.
I find just a little bit of erroneous bias in your math. You included the time to do PCB layout on the CNC side, but you didn't factor in the time it took for you to plan the layout on the perfboard. It probably wouldn't have added much to the time it took for you to assemble the circuit on perfboard, but I don't believe that there wasn't *some* planning involved there, as pretty as your circuits look on perfboard. :P
Calyo Delphi first that, and also you have to solder active for 3h, while the 1 hour of the miling process is automatic, so you could do things in that hour, too
@@yatagarasu1495 true
From your video it become obvious that the Z-axis probing is essential. And the tools quality is also very important.
I think that with more experience you will have much better and consistent result.
I saw many tutorials with cheap chinese CNCs and the result was very nice.
3.5h
But thats also the time of the cnc itself (not time wasted for you)
We did some PCBs for an arduino project at university. At first we tried to mill the PCB as well. With a vacuum table it’ worked well. But the whole PCB needs to be bigger to accommodate the milling bit size. Later we switched to etching. Way more convenient and much better results.
3:09 Just love how straight and honest you narrate the video =)
I use toner transfer for all my double sided boards , I etch with muratic acid with great success every time. Great videos.
GreatScott
I love your videos even though i dont have any idea what are you talking about.
So I bought one of those CNC 3018 machines for 120€ on eBay last month. Including a Laser, which works quite well for laser-cutting 4mm plywood. Regarding my PCB settings:
30° 0.1mm V-bit (the cheapos from eBay), cut depth 0.05mm, use candle software and make a height map first. 50mm/min xy feed at first but 100 also seems fine (other suggest even 500 down here), 30mm/min plunge speed, spindle speed at max.
I use flatCAM and use 2 passes with 35% overlap and design with 0.5mm traces and clearance in easyEDA.
8:04: "Leave your farts in the comment section below."
No thanks. I'm good
I got a "T8" engraver as featured by various other channels. As supplied it was utterly unfit for circuit board engraving, as instead of a chuck it had a brass tube with grub screws at both ends which didn't hold the bit straight - I moved the Z down and it cut a little circle. I replaced it with an actual chuck which holds the bit much better at the expense of another 10-15mm of Z-axis space.
I made a basic probe from a broken end-mill with a switch epoxied onto the end and I love it very very much!
Very interesting and useful! Thank you very much for your time!
You're welcome :-)
Two teachers at once. Glad to see you both.
Of course I am! I don't miss a video!
educ8s.tv
Nice to see you here :)
Oh Nick, you here.
I had the exact same problems you described on my 3020 chinesium cnc. What I found is that auto levelling software is a MUST. After I got used to the workflow i've been turning out some excellent pcb's (consistently). Just my 2 cents
For prototyping i rather use the toner and etch method if it is a little bit more complex, otherwise the pen and etching is quick enough.
Works for me
I completely agree with your final evaluation, but that is exactly why PCB milling machines exist! My school only uses milled PCB's (I've been doing it for 4 years, and only this year touched a breadboard) for projects, and every one turns out alright if designed properly.
Neues Video! Sehr cool!
You hope that i get a virus right? Not with me ;)
Deutsch istda
Ok Greatscott, I been a hobbyist all my life, creating my own PCB, circuits, projects, DIY, etc etc. Producing PCB using the conventional laser print on photo paper, then flat iron it on the blank PCB, etch it, rinse then spray on it with insulation varnish is always my number 1 procedure on how to make a PCB that even SMD components was my way to go. Though it is really messy and corrosive due to the fact that I am using ferric chloride to etch my copper clad. Never failed me.
So using CNC (tried it too on my home made CNC machine from salvage printer and photo copier parts) also do failed on me.
Considering that most of the work is done by the machine, I would say that milling the PCB can save a lot of time.
IKR! You can go do something else when it mills the PCB, but a CNC is expensive and it isn't nearly as fun.
Thomas the Nerd Less fun but not expensive if you have access to a fablab. Here in India they charges 1$/2 hour to access a Roland MDX 20
The $200 machine may be able to do it. It took me more then 3 weeks to get my $140 china 3d printer to work but now it is printing good. Nice video
Have you tried PCB toner transfer method? It is very cost effective for home prototypes, even with 2 layer boards. You have to fiddle with the design to reduce vias though.
Chemical etch all the way baby! I discovered that with an oil based paint marker (sharpie brand) you can simply draw your circuit on the copper board and it protects from the etch beautifully! I'm new to this and really wanted a CNC but after learning to etch boards with marker- the whole process takes an HR or less I don't think I'll be buying that dream CNC for milling although one day hope I can afford a CNC that cuts big pieces of metal of course! Thanks for the video I will be making my first instructable on the paint marker etch process soon as simple as it is it would be cool to share it!
-Jesse
I find the quickest way is to use light sensitive PCB stock and a selfmade UV light box.
I use the CNC only to drill the holes and cut the board to size automatically.
Any 160 x 100 mm will take about 1 hour to make from scratch... and no wrong connections!
-
Just as tip.
Do not buy the overpriced developer.
Use Natriumhydroxide as developer.
You can make your own by buying standard drain cleaner (pellets!) at any pharmacy.
Mix 30 grams in 2 liter of water.
2 Liter of developer for about 20 cent. Develop time = 10-20 seconds.
It took me a few seconds to realise "Natriumhydroxide" is just sodium-hydroxide! 😄
Made my first milled circuit board yesterday, a shield for a shift register for easier breadboard prototyping, using one of the cheap Banggood engravers. (They're better as a training device than as a useful tool IMO.) Nine pins, eight SMD LEDs and eight SMD resistors. Gave up trying to get meaningful results from Kicad and resorted to paper and pen sketch and hand calculations. Then typed in Gcode instructions line-by-line to accurately mark the header pin positions and part of the isolation paths, and used the jog controls to manually carve the rest.
Quite happy with the result though!
Try doing it the way Marco Reps did- buy a 200$ CNC laser engraver from ebay and etch away paint from spray-painted PCB and etch away exposed copper
Not as nice as you think.
Air assist would blow the components away. Disable the air assist and solder fumes would destroy the lens. Not going to work.
Maybe a plotter could also work. !??
@@JohnBailey39 I recently did this for engraving stainless steel with tracks way thinner (0,1mm) than what I would use for a circuit board. Works like a charm if you do it right, as with anything else..
nice video, I use the following process with a 3018PRO (cheap but upgraded spindle to 300W)
- Draw single side design on Sprint Layout
- Export as Gerber file
- Open Flatcam and import the file (same process and settingS)
- Export CNC job
- open Candle and home the bit with probe (without probe you'll never manage a good board)
- Create Heightmap
- Start job after map created
Optional load drill holes file from flatcam and use same heightmap
You have to use a spring bit
I am a huge fan of pcb milling. I bought a £600 4 axis machine from china which did take about a week of overhauling to make it function (configure for linuxcnc, add limit switches, replace the appealing excuse for a spindle etc). The bed was extruded aluminium and not very flat so I added a 3/4" piece of mdf held down with recessed roofing bolts. I then milled the entire work area with a dremel milling bit in the spindle to create a sacrificial but very flat surface. I hold down the copper clad board with double sided tape and as long as i am careful to avoid ripples in the tape the top of the board is parallel with the bed. i do not use auto levelling. i have installed it but I stopped using it because firstly it is time consuming but more crucially if something goes wrong during the milling (like a broken tip) you cannot re-probe as there is a chance that it will probe into an already cut area which will result in no electrical contact and therefore will carry on driving the spindle into the board with very unhappy results.
I use eagle and pcbgcode. both these applications are good but not without fairly steep learning curves especially for those of us who prefer mac to pc (i think anyway)
I have found that the supply of copper clad board is also a factor. I recently purchased 10 small boards from eBay and half of them snapped successive milling bits as soon as they touched it but when running the same program on the same machine on the same day with a new bit from the same pack it worked fine thus I deduce that not all copper clad boards are equal. I will from now on use only trusted sources (g00fie on eBay.co.uk is my current goto place for this and other electronic stuff)
in short I conclude that milling can be made to work extremely well but is quite a delicate operation.
Best way I've found (and fastest) is to use a 3 axis laser engraver to remove non-copper-etchable paint.
and then etch the copper.
Making PCBs is a waste of time for the one-off project I do. I use the perfboard just like you and I love it. I bought every imaginable SMD to DIP converter boards and it costed me like $60. I have a 100 of every imaginable foot-print. I just mount the SMD ICs that I can not find in DIP packages, and no problems to report.
The beauty of perfboard construction, is that I can make modifications on the spot and even move sections to another spot on the PCB and it looks good too. At least I like the look!
I am sure it would take me longer to build something using the PCB approach. Not to mention the cost of blanks, acid, blah blah blah. Or in this case, a CNC machine.
When you add all the bits and "Optional" pieces you really need to make something like this work, you are well into hundreds more than the base price of any CNC bare-bone system.
my 2 cents...
I am interested in ANYTHING from china!
Check out darrel ralph knives. They are fully Chinese.
I have one of those cheap chinese machines. It's first job was to cut replacement parts for the slightly larger cheap machine I bought at the same time. I've used it with FlatCam and Chilipepr with varying success, mostly due to needing to buy more bits. Auto-leveling is time consuming but worth it and easy to implement.
I don't like your final conclusion, you kept the first conclusion the same even after acknowledging the error was from a problem that was easily fixable
Great video, I have been making PCB's with my small cheap Chines CNC for a while now, some programs work better than others but no problem in cutting the pcb, one thing however it is very important to do auto leveling, I have leveled my working area by cutting it flat to it's self and also using the auto leveling " Probing " the PCB's come out perfect.
Which website did you use for creating PCB's that cheap?!
EasyEDA
Hey GreatScott what do you think about Kicad.. is it worth learning it?? i am planing to learn it if you familiar with it plzz reply.
Totan, I use KiCad, definitely worth learning! I use it all the time (because I didn't have time to learn EasyEDA)
Imagine being sad enough to do this.
Oshpark has some super cheap options too
Hands on versus hands off time is what is important here. Particularly if you plan to make several. I have a CNC machine and have done this with good success. Usually for making PCB for LED controllers and PDB for my R/C stuff. But the real issue is that with the CNC you can do at best two layer circuits by using double sided Printed Circuit Board Blanks. I have not done that since just thinking of getting the two sides to align would be a quite difficult. Single layer however is a synch! Yes I would like to see cheap cnc video. Great Job!!!
6:03 Trust me I'm an engineer
A. Replace those weak grub screws with short M3 screws...they engage more threads, can hold better and are easier to tighten
B. Using an electrical leveling setup would compensate for the change in heights, meaning much better milling
C. I have a 3018 CNC inbound...wooo!!!!
Great video...keep em coming!
Könntest du die PCB-Datei für die RGB Lampe hochladen? (z.B. auf Easy Eda oder so?)
I like the photo process, this is why I am working on LDGraphy and that it is easy to reproduce for everyone.
Autolevel, i uses it to make my pcb. :-)
And mill faster, then you will have a good pcb :-)
Currently I am creating my own PCBs with a Proxxon MF70 which I have upgraded to CNC. I'm using flat cam for g code, my own software for sending g code and on the other site I used the GRBL software. It works very well for me and I like that I can get my PCBs instant. And it is in my case more instant than in yours, because I'm using a higher speed for the isolation milling and after that I will change my tool for milling all holes and cutting out the PCB.
For smd isolation milling I use a engrave bit with a cut depth of 0,072mm which results in a width of 0,24mm. For other parts I am using a depth up to 0,15mm which leads to a width of 0,5mm.
For milling holes and cutting the pcb I am using a 0.8mm bit.
I think one of the biggest efforts is that I can use the "unused" space as gnd layer, and this will allow me to make my PCBs simpler because I have not spending time on finding the best way for my gnd connection. Beside of that, my PCBs will getting smaller. And I actually needet only one time more than one PCB, and in this case it was easier to build the whole thing new instead of fixing the old board (one component dies).
Can you make an easier video for the 3 tesla coil videos
No
There's a reason for that, tesla coils can easily kill you if you don't know what you are doing.
ratchetfreak +1
It was just a problem with the schematics and there where pieces that are not connected to anything (more than one) and i just wanted to know what to connect with what
GreatScott! It was just a problem with the schematics and there where pieces that are not connected to anything (more than one) and i just wanted to know what to connect with what
Dear GreatScott!, I have received my "0.1 mm engraving bits" and shall proceed with a small PCB SMD test on my 3-in-1 WanHao/PowerSpec/Duplicator i3 v2 to see how the 3D printed Flex Shaft Dremel attachment will handle the milling process. I suspect that even with the Z and Y braces, there will not be enough rigidity in the frame for this task. However, with the Y-axis alignment mod and printer bed braces ( to keep the bed still with CNC operations like "scratch-engraving" or CNC drilling") I was able to successfully produce a 2 layer PCB 14 x 16cm with ±0.25 mm accuracy across the PCB (X-axis). Used my 3D printer to CNC drill the through-holes and 0.5 mm VIA's (416 holes in all!). I also used my 3D printer to "engrave" the traces with isolation "routing" using a spring loaded sharpened steel 8mm rod salvaged from an old inkjet. I have wanted to try also the milling approach with this setup and shall soon do so. I shall also produce a video about this subject using a 3D printer as also a CNC drill/mill/laser engraver( or cutter).
What company manufactures custom PCBs for €2?
ruclips.net/video/Fj0XuYiE7HU/видео.html
I am regularly using my cheap mdf homemade CNC machine with impressive results and much faster. My suggestions are:
- use autoleveling is a must. bCNC program provides all you need including manual tool changes for drilling different diameters
- use double sided scotch. Never clamps.
- press the pcb to firmly attach it to the scotch
- your feedrate is way too low. Make zig zag pattern tests to find the optimum for your bits.
- i use eagle with pcb-gcode and i typically make 3 passes to enlarge the insulation of the traces. For example the arduino severino board with 3 passes, drilling with tool changing and cutting of board takes less than 1h
You need a autoleveller
I have a home made cnc machine, and I use it for smd and for THT also. It is good for prototyping, I always make a prototype before I order cheap pcbs from China. If you make a little mistake, and you have to re-order your pcb, it takes some weeks... CNC is not as easy as a nob might think at the first time. It takes a lot of working hours to learn all the things. For example the right gcode generation, the tools, the correct tool settings, the milling program etc. Gcode leveler is a good way to correct the pcb's curves. I use it always before starting milling.
You can etch your own like you mentioned, then use a solder mask and expose it to certain lights and it will look just like the professional ones you mentioned
Yes I have a low budget pcb milling machine and I have beautiful results after some modification and test. You must use a software to level the plate of your cnc + pcb! After that you can engrave at 0.05mm only to remove the copper and isolate the trace, is a lot better if you put some oil during the engraving process!
Nice demo! The upside, once calibration is secure, you don’t have to waste your time watching the execution of the milling and drilling. That time could be spent watching Sponge Bob, or counting all the bees in the hive, or the actual density of a black hole! However, getting the pcb’s done professionally really frees up your time. Cheers 🍻
I agree. Handmade THT soldering is way faster and easier once you get practice. Neverthless, everyday we get newer IC's available only as SMD, thus if we want to produce a SMD prototype fast then CNC is the best option.
Hey, mate. I have tried it on my CNC multiple times and have had some success but I agree it is noisy slow and has mixed results. The auto leveller works well in Mach3 with a probe input. I have gone back to toner transfers and etching. Great video as always. Cheers Brett
I own a "cheap chinese" CNC mill.
CNC milling is an art as much as science. It took me many attempts to get an acceptable settings for PCB milling.
You could definitely increase your milling feedrate. I use around 800mm/min speed, single pass with 0.15mm cutting depth on a 30 degree V bit. I could make the CNC drill the through holes after a tool change. Would often get a good PCB in just 10 minute of milling. Saves loads of time compared to wiring on a prototype board, especially with a complex circuit.
I just got a TOP DIRECT CNC From Amazon, for intended use of Milling PCB's and Project housings. For larger PCB's to get the board perfectly flat use Ample Double sided tape, And light use of clamps as will cause it to bend, Flat type PCB Spindles are best for the job but any mistakes will destroy the bit. But the work is much finer, The machine i got also has the laser port so making a small laser holding bracket it can Also Etch wood And carve with laser.. Its a nice way to begin CNC Work.
My bet for better results is on the bit you chose and the fixtures . Awesome video and no to the review that you were asking about in the pinned comment. Love to see more projects. Subscribing
I'm too old school for any of this new tech or SMD components. Back in the day, I just used a marker pen on the PCB and etched it with ferric chloride then drilled the holes freehand. :)
Grande studio e ricerca. Complimenti
Great video! You are right, for simple projects (and when you need only one board) perfboard will often be faster. I find it a bit sad that your first PCB milling experience turned out that disappointing. I also mill my PCBs, using flatCAM for the gerbers and my DIY CNC mill. I use a 45° bit, 0.2mm cutting depth, 4mm/sec @ 15000rpm, and the results look perfect. Having the PCB absolutely flat is a must of course, 0.1mm height difference matters.
this comment section is full of good info... I'm using a cheap cnc machine from china, I don't have such fine traces on my boards though, so I'm not running into the issues you're having. Since you've invested in the X-Carve I'd say it's especially worth putting in the time to figure out how to get a quality board out of it; I'm sure that with the right bits and technique it can handle those fine traces with no problem. Also it didn't really seem fair to count the time for installing and setting up the software since you only need to do that once. The way I see it, once you've figured out the entire process and gotten your mill calibrated properly, all you need to do to make a board is design it in autodesk (or similar program) which you can do on a laptop whenever you have free time, and then when you're ready to work on your project you just send the board to the CNC and let it work while you prepare your soldermask and components
I can only say, that I successfully use a cheap Chinese CNC engraver to produce through hole PCB's (3 AXIS 3020T). Agreed it is only worth doing if you want multiple boards and it is critical to have a level bed. But I just don't have an issue with uneven copper boards as you mention, maybe I have been lucky with my supplier/manufacturer I guess. What seems to work for me is to cut tracks with a 10 degree bit 0.1/0.2mm (the ends of the cheap Chinese 0.1 bits have a tendency to break off so investing in some decent quality bits is a good idea. Thanks for the video, although personally I have had better luck. All the best
For cheap CNC3018 (under GBP 200) I used 60 feedrate, but the most important part of the process is heightmap (I use GRBLcontrol aka candle). This will a take a while to do map measuring height on multiple points in both X and Y axises but it will adjust height in your program at specified points (measured during creating a heightmap) so your milling ends up with cosistent deepness.
Another thing is that it take so much time only on the beggining, after you get to know all the apps you can run your project from scheme to ready PCB much faster, you can do many PCB cheaper than ordering them and you do not have to wait.
I have a cheap cnc machine that I brought just to make PCB and I just prefer to wait for jlcpcb to make it and ship. I had to upgrade the woodpecker controller that came with it to allow me to update to the newer version of grbl so I could use bed level height mesh option and this made a big big difference to the overall quality, but it was still a lot of messing about and I found I had to work with larger tracks along with a actual pcb milling bit instead of the v-bit if I wanted guaranteed results. Then had problems with tracks between pads ect. So it was ok for very simple projects, but then I would just make it up with perf board just as quick like you have already said. I do have something to make and I was thinking of giving it another try as soon as I have a few days to play with it again.
for prototyping I usually use equivalent through hole components where possible and if I can't get a particular part as a through hole I'll solder some legs to the smd. I rarely need to do it to more than one component so it adds maybe 10 minutes to the process.
Doesn't matter if it isn't faster, it looks nicer and looks are everything! :D
My CNC runs into the same issues. Leveling the spoiler board will help. What I've been experimenting with lately is spray painting the board and using a laser to etch the traces. Then dropping it into ferric chloride to finish the etch.
I also agree that you're milling way too slow for copper boards. There's not a lot of physical resistance in the cut you're making. A faster cut should produce a cleaner edge as you'll be cutting more than rubbing the surface.
I think with a little more practice, you'll be getting better results.
Got a good chuckle from all the bits getting mixed up when the box was opened! :-)
I can't really understand the need to mill your own board when you can order the boards professionally made so cheaply. I like the perf board for prototyping, but other than that, it's hard to beat the online services...
Funny. This time I think I could detect a bit of frustration in Scott's voice. ;-)
Yes i had a 2418 small cnc from china and it works really well i use CA glue to hold the pcb to a piece of flat mdf it works great but after many failed attempts
I received the cheapest CNC I found, a 3010 model and it mills through hole PCBs beautifully. I have a lot of experience with bigger home made CNCs and CAM software though.
Two suggested methods could improve your results.
One would be to face off a sacrificial spoil board(MDF) using the router to generate its own flat and parallel surface on which to mount the PC boards prior to engraving.
Another would be to consider a vacuum fixture made on the router to hold the PC board flat without clamps in the way.
I have been using a cheap chinese cnc3040 machines at my work for nearly 2 years mostly for creating prototype pcbs. As GreatScott showed it is not an upgrade for time wise. But on the other hand i can load the gcode to the machine and do some other work while it mills the pcb.
From experience, milling pcbs doesnt have perfect outcomes when you use cheap chinese machine but they really get the work done.
From the material aspect, although normally pcbs should have copper layer around 35um thickness, they really vary from manufacturer. And if the milling bit is not sharp enough the copper usually plastered (i am not sure its the right word) and cannot be milled. Due to this, i usually set my milling depth as 0.1mm while thinking about the milling angle of the bit.
For me overall, its good to reproduce same board easly when needed again.
I went through the same pains as you have shown with a China CNC 6040 machine with Mach software and flatcam. I personally found the process slow and open to error and you must level the PCB and use touch probing on the machine before each PCB run. I find it better to keep the temperature around the cutter cool using a air stream. Its good for milling holes and for larger traces and round or odd shaped PCB are simple to do. I found that the less pointed tools, (shallow angles), cutting a bit deeper worked well and you can move a bit faster while milling. Through hole and smd are both OK with the CNC I think as the hole drilling is quicker than using a manual drill. You can leave the machine running and it will complete the process with out over processing like etching will do. All that said I have gone back to chemicals as its very fast, (10 mins or so start to end), and is perfect for very fine and complex boards and double sided is easier.
I think their are several variables to this with regards to leveling, the level of the PCB, the machines levels, the bit depth, the bit diameters, and G-code.
Reminds me a lot of the first 3D printers, you have to make sure everything is corrects for a good print. We didn’t have auto leveling platforms, and to print at a 0.1 was a rare achievement but could be done if the machine was set correctly. This usually involved the stock machine being upgraded in many ways before you would get consistent results. Probably the same issue with cheap CNC milking machines.
I had an expensive (for me) CNC machine for about 8 years. It worked well, but had to auto level every time. Then I ordered a $299 Chinese one and it works surprisingly well. I don't even have to auto-level the bed, and the traces are good enough for very fine 0.02 inch traces. I definitely prefer it to hand-soldering on perf board.
Also you forgot that you can do other things while the board is being milled. So that time isn't exactly comparable.
Best electronic youtube channel ever. Thanks for your precision. Greetings from Italy :)
By George! This is a great video, Great Scott!
I only once used a PCB CNC during an internship in 9th grade, and everything went smoothly there. Although the machine was a completely different price class from yours, probably in the five digit range.
Ralphie Vigg probably. I remember it being quite a lot faster than the one shown in the video. A transparent cover plus built in vacuum is a must in any kind of professional setting, too.
The guy who was responsible for my internship said he much preferred the milling over etching for single prototyping, it's far less of a mess. And as most of his boards were unique anyways, re rarely used the etching station they had.