Don't use same rotary tool as you would have same issue as Tech2C with tolerances and z-play. Just having a Dremel would solve this problem alone, as Dremel have a much better flex shaft. I had some chineseum rotary tool and Dremel, and even tried dremel flex shaft as a router on aluminum (bad idea), killed and changed bearings in flex shaft. Everything about Dremel is better than cheap chinese stuff, but even dremel have tiny bearings in a shaft, not very suited for side-load. BUT For this application I'd rather buy cheap 12V brushed motor with a small collet chuck (used and sold for purpose of drilling PCB).
Having used a PCB milling machine 20 years ago I have a few recommendations for you. When milling you do not want to cut in the glass fiber substrate unless necessary. It will wear out the end mill in no time. A proper calibrated PCB mill only cuts into the copper and glue. And when routing the final cut-out, do it in one pass so you won't wear out the tip of the end mill. The tip you use for the fine milling on copper, and the shaft on glass fiber. Prober end mills aren't cheap.
Ratbites (the small bridges holding the PCB in place) are convenient; but a word of warning about them: PCB's has a tendency to delaminate near them and put mechanical stress on the components. It's not a problem here; but if you use SMD components near the rat bite it may cause trouble. I experienced this problem first-hand for one of our designs. I had pointed this problem out to a manufacturer; but they assured me they had this under control. Half a year later we received defective units back - all with the same symptom. Diagnosing the boards I found they all had a capacitor with a DC resistance of a few kilo-ohms. By casting the boards in resin, grinding them down and inspecting under microscope we learned the capacitors had cracks that originated from the rat-bite.
Love your channel - You do not use top end gear and the way you modify your printer with all the gear (drill, laser, 3d printer head, dremel, etc) is just amazing. Really shows what can be done. Cheers Jim
You could 3d print something to remove the slight Z movement. I'm thinking of something like an L - shaped bracket with a bearing, so the drill bit can go through the center of it.
Looks like the second attempt is not the same as the one from frame 10:48 and to frame 11:54 are they two different attempts? some of the holes look ragged and over the edges in the first one ?
Great video! thank you for sharing this information. I may give this a try in the future on my CNC. One suggestion. Drill your holes first. The reason is because it is possible, especially when your end mill might be getting dull or poor quality laminate, for there to be a hint of tear out. Having a lot of copper around the hole at the time of the drill out will help support the surrounding copper. I really did like your video! Thanks!
Just keep in mind that the fiberblass is abrasive and the copper is conductive. You really want to have a vacuum attachment of some sort or else it's going to get into your motors, belts, power supply, that exposed control board, etc. If you plan to do this often, I recommend a Shapeoko or similar with a Suck-It attachment.
Check bCNC auto leveling, it uses the electrical contact of tool to pcb to compensate curved surfaces. Covering the pcb in WD40 will help with thinner mills, and keeps the dust in control (mud).
I tried bCNC a while ago. The auto bed leveling I couldn't get to work. I have used Marlin's inbuilt bilinear ABL using alligator clips on the PCB and drill bit. WD40 is a good idea!
the shaft of the flexible-dremel handpiece has 2 bearings, you could glue them in with some CA glue. when i did that on mine, no z play at all anymore.
I have more than a year of experience with milling pcbs. I first tried with my 3d printer, then made a dedicated milling machine. For good results you absolutely have to use autoleveling. For pcbs larger than, let's say 3cm, you will have terrible results as on some areas you will barely scratch the surface or dig too deep. On my dedicated machine i am using MACH3 as the milling software, a free tool for probing and autoleveling the pcb and flatcam. The probing tool acts as a post processor for the gcode from flatcam and modifies it so the clearing is always consistent. I forgot the name of the software though.
Yes I agree. I had enabled the auto bed level feature in Marlin firmware of my 3D printer, and the intention was to show bed leveling for the V bit. If I can remove the slop in the flex shaft I'll revisit it.
The problem is basically that the copper clad laminate isn't guaranteed to be flat across it's surface, i've seen 'ripples' greater than 0.3mm. So what the Mach3 probing tool does is profile the surface and generates a Z axis pre-distortion of the G code to compensate for the out of flatness surface. Also, I would order the Gcode files, so that you drill the holes first, the route the tracks, then clear the copper, then do the outline. This stops pads from ripping off when the holes are drilled afterwards, as there is more copper around them.
There is no additional software needed in Marlin as its build in, just once enabled and mapped in Marlin (up to 12 probe level points) in ConfigH, and you use G29 command. Then follow this video to wire the touch place (in your case, you don't need one. Just clip the ground to the plate, and + to the end mill). marlinfw.org/docs/gcode/G029-abl.html marlinfw.org/docs/gcode/G029-abl.html
Is the "autoleveling" some device/sensor that Tech2C can possibly attach to the 'mill head' of his 3d printer, kinda like the one used to detect the proximity of the bed when using the 'printing head'? Actually, can the same sensor be used for autoleveling?
Have you thought of adding a small blower to the tool so that it can clear its path itself? You could probably use a small computer fan and some plastic tubing, that way you could even make it a weak vacuum by inverting said fan
For those more into etching: You can do about the same thing with a fine tip Sharpie to lay down a mask that does a good job resisting both FeCl and CuCl2 etchants. Got a plotter head for my Prusa just for this. That said, building a PCB router or converting a printer does cut out messing with chemical etchants and masking. I'd probably want to either mod in a vacuum line to take care of the shavings, or a coolant line to keep shavings mostly captive on the board or in a runoff bucket. The former option would probably be way easier on a retooled printer. Metal shavings can be a right pain in the ass around computers, exposed wiring, intake fans, etc.
No it's quite OK to directly solder them (if I've understood your double negative properly!). But you should be quick, like with all pcb mounted components, and let any bad-looking joints cool off before retouching them. Ppl only use sockets to make them easy to change, if you want to reprogram them off-board.
Always Tin engraved PCB's. Use a heat gun and Oaty 95 paste. This ensures a quick local heat buildup when soldering. Bare copper has a tendency to spread the heat quickly and delaminates extremely easy. SMD parts are almost impossible to mill in. The copper surface has a tendency to chip at a certain thickness when using a vbit. The FR4 backer is usually pretty brittle at a small size. Easier to mount a .1mm pen from sharpie and etch.
Another thing about isolation routing, it alters the electrical properties of the PCB substrate. The PCB substrate acts much like a capacitor; conductors above and below an insulator. Thinning the PCB substrate will change the capacitance of any traces passing over the thinned areas. For a single-sided quicky PCB, not an issue. For a double-sided PCB RF or audio amplifier, alterations in PCB capacitance would be a disaster. Same with any high-speed circuitry; variations in capacitance = variations in impedance. Point being made: Isolation routing is quick and dirty, emphasis on dirty.
Should use the end mills just for the outline/drills. Try using the laser diode for "isolation routing" on black spray paint which can be used as etch resist
Yeah I've never made a custom PCB but this tripped me out not using any chemicals.....but hey I guess it'll work for anything that doesn't need to be packed in tight!
You could take a look at the German ‘Dremels’ made by Proxxon. The are more durable and stable. I have no experience yet with their flexshafts, but it might also not have any play in the head just like the main motors have. Furthermore, it is not required to remove the whole nut to place a bit, only when it needs another collet size.
I got the same flexible shaft, and it doesn't have the Z axis problem! It has no play at all... I didn't buy any V bit because of that, but now that I see it doesn't have the issue I ordered a couple.
I like it. I don't know what it's for but I like it. Great for prototyping if you have gear like this and don't want to fiddle with printer, etch resist, chemicals etc for 2-5 boards and super tiny leads aren't an issue.
To those interested. Milling pcb starts after 7 minutes. Don’t use a Dremel spindle if you want a cleaner finish. Aliexpress has the 200w and 300w 8mm shaft with er11 or er16 collet holders for $15-$32 if you scroll around lowest price shipped.
Couldn't you print a collar of some sort, perhaps with a bearing that goes on the Dremel, could be adjustable with grub screws etc, keep the chuck in the same place
Can you take apart the extension head, and just print a new one (redesigned) that meets your desired tolerances? Seems like a perfect use case of the 3d printer =)!
Question. Could you use the normal 3D printer filament directly on the copper board as an object one layer deep? Then etch the board normally with the printed plastic as the resist?
Impressive that you can use one machine to make a PCB , and then a plastic housing for your projects. Maybe more 3D printer makers should start building this milling ability in to their machines to make the devices much more versatile. The same XYZ mechanism could be a 3D printer, light milling machine and laser engraver by swapping the head. A really fancy model could have the heads automatically changeable perhaps.
I think it would be smart to make a circular blower style part-cooler, like on a 3d printer head, but with much larger vents... and attach it to a vacuum... vacuum up the shavings as it goes 👌
Silly little question, but does the X axis get inverted ? I mean for one sided board will the bottom copper layer be mirrored as it should ? If yes, who does it , flatcam ?
at 08;58 the holes drilled after the router clears - might make no difference to do it the other way around holes before routing - tearing of the copper clad
I would like to make some special cut business cards in wood. The size of a business card. Will this machine cut (-0.50) or maybe 1.0mm deep? and for the size how long would it take for something of that size?
Pretty clever of actually doing engraving by use of a flexible shaft. I’m in the concepting phase of a custom 3D printer and have been thing on how to do some simple CNC work with it as well, I might consider going this route as well to achieve that, as I don’t like a dremel on the toolhead of the machine itself considering it’s weight. As to your Z free movement issue I imagine there are ways to get rid of this play with a little shim, or otherwise there will probably be other flex shafts that have less or no play at all.
The design considerations for these were never specced for high z constraint. That doesn't mean you couldn't install some lateral thrust bearings. As these dremels are intended for operation at very high RPM, I wouldn't recommend simply removing the lateral play by constraining the existing bearings or using any sort of friction shim or spring. You either need paired roller/thrust bearings or cone bearings that take care of rotational and lateral motion at the same time. The later are preferable since there are fewer surfaces for friction to be introduced.
HI. I wonder how you managed to start a CNC GCODE in a simple 3d printer firmware? I mean.... flat cam generates G01 X...... GCODe, without Y-axis coordinates
Thank you for the nice video that shows how you can have your PCB ready in 20 minutes. The 0.8mm end mill you have used seems a bit too large even for a board that does not use any surface mount devices. As you mention, smaller size end mills are available and can be used. One option would be to do the milling with 0.8mm and drilling the holes with a 0.6mm end mill. Like others have mentioned, I also wondered why you would choose to mill your PCB right in the center of a large board. That certainly is not optimal utilization of the large board that you bought! In your next video give a demo of making a PCB that has tiny SM devices like 0603 resistors and capacitors with 0.4mm end mill.
impressive. i didnt think that the belt driven 3d printer was accurate enough to do something like this. ive just bought a dedicated milling machine which uses lead screws on all axis and this gives great accuracy. nice to see how it turns out on this system though.
For the Z-Axis play on the end shaft, you need to put spacer between the flexi-shaft and the end receiver. This involved taking the "hand piece" apart and either adding a flat washer to take up the space, or adding something like a piece of a paper where the flexi-shaft inserts into the receiver. That should help with the end play. That is, if you can even open up the hand piece for maintenance.
I think you might run into delamination issues (the copper layer splitting off from the fiberglass)with this kind of holes and since they are not lined with copper it may cause some issues with the circuit working properly.
Surely you could add a shim washer at the opposite end of the shaft to alleviate the up/down excess motion. I am interested in gettting one of these 3d printers!
Hi there thank you for the video... Your 3d printer I suppose is expensive , not all common guys can afford such a tool ... I am thinking if is not possibly to using cheap 3D printers with plastic filament to print the circuit on PCB and after common etching method , to eliminate that plastic with something ( maybe acetone ) and have a ready pcb for driling and mounting the electronics on it ...
Currently i'm looking for a reliable solution to make pcb's without chemicals, and this one is quite interesting. Do you think the same could be done with laser? I mean, i've never seen anyone go from A to B without using acid.
he mate just a hint but make a small device with 2 crocodile clamps and a led and move your z axis 0.01mm this way you can level perfectly and have a perfect 0. or even override your z limit switch to do it automatically and even use z probing. clamp 1 croc on the bit and 1 on the clad. its both conductive so it acts as a switch.
Free play in any axis makes PC board tougher to make, but if the play is visible it's actually too much if you need accuracy because of small trace widths and/or pad sizes. For through-hole boards cut with endmills this may no be a problem, but for SMD parts cut with engraving bits, free play in the Z axis means irregular results, and in the X/Y axes you can actually break the tip off your engraving bit if it has a narrow taper. Also, unless your work surface is hyper-smooth and hyper-level, you pretty much MUST use an auto-levelling script in your G-code if you want consistent cut depths. Manually adjustable work tables on 3D printers are not even remotely level enough as this is nearly impossible to do by hand without contact probes, etc.
hey buddy thank you for this wonderful tutorial....i followed you and found that my y axis of ender 3 doesn't move a bit...i checked gcode there is one difference in code....your all y axis values are positive, but mine are all negative..all numbers have - (minus) sign before them....what could i do here?...if u could help it would be your favour on me....
Great video. Thanks a lot. You are capable of explaining complex things in a fast and clear way. If you want to avoid breathing expoxy dust you can put a tiny bit of oil on the board is stead of a mask. ;) Best regards an thanks again.
Hello, I am trying to install Flatcam. But do not have any experience with Python, and little experience with Linux. The tutorials in "Flatcam" site, are quite advanced, and I cannot follow the process. Do you have any video on installing Flatcam? would be very much appreciated. Regards
Thanks for sharing , I was thinking about buying 3d printer to make enclosures for my electronics projects , Now i am seriously thinking to buy it for PCB fabrication also .
Solder mask has different purpuses. This is just a PCB without filling plane. Solder mask goes on top of traces and all the areas that need to be isolated to either improove safety ratings, or protect againts environmental effects or ESD, or improve tha range of soldering temperature/heat that traces and pads will withstand... The purpuses for filling empty board space with a polygon or leaving it blank are completely different.
@@Mr.Leeroy yes I agree with everything. My comment was related to the fact that milling only the isolation paths would be enough and milling all the copper surface away is not necessary/waste of time, but them he said on the video that he did It this way to make soldering easy as there's no solder mask, which makes sense because there's much less to short circuit with.
I get the use, but I found this wording of "acting like a solder mask" wrong on so many levels. If you are having such problems with shorting, I'd suggest improoving soldering skills starting with using no flux solder wire and learning to apply gel flux manually controlling the amount for the actual solder task. You would be surprised how much it affects the result. I don't know how one would accidentally short anything even across 0.4mm gap and especially 0.8mm here. You have to actually make effort to create a bridge across a gap, because when solder is heated in flux it acts like a drop of fluid that due to it's density is highly attracted to other metals and it's particles to each other. So solder makes nice rounded shapes and just splits across the gap or jumps to one side. To create a bridge you actually have to apply less flux to control how 'slippery' it is for the blob to jump across the gap. Comes with practice.
Hi! It's interesting! How do you suppose to mill a double sided PCB (ECB)? This example is a very simple case and not useful for a dense circuits that need to be fit in a limited space.
Hello Excellent video. Ive just got an Anet A8 3d printer, and having doing countless etchings, i want to do this way. Do you have a tutorial of converting the parts. Coincidentally, ive just had in today a replacement extruder complete, so this would be the time to convert. Thanks R
...don't forget to run g21 at the start when working with grbl and engraving pcbs.....don't ask me why, trust me on this one. a great trick for leveling is using a multimeter put into continuinity mode by the way so you can level it perfectly with the bed
Instead of using double side sticky tape, use mirror clamps and screw the plate down from the edges. You can use as many needed to hold the board down. Or you could use a thin piece of strip wood or plastic to hold down the edges. That way you don't risk bending the board while removing it. After all, you could reuse that board to create many other PCB/ECB's And, if you need to etch/engrave the other side for double side board, you can get the board in the exact location needed easily
Hi, another work holding tip that has some other benefits is single sided tape (or book covering seal) and Super Glue (CA Glue). Apply tape or book covering film to both the workpiece and the work surface then stick the 2 surfaces together with the CA glue. Often this has more hold than simple double sided tape or does have some other benefits. For your software (marlin and the CAM) is there no software backlash compensation available as this MIGHT overcome or help with your issue with the collet holder.
hello thanx for all your 3d printer videos. i have an idea but dont know is it possible or not. i saw some 15w co2 laser tubes on aliexpress can it be used with our hypercubes. of course laser tube stood still and light will directed with mirrors. just an idea.
There are plans out there for exactly such a machine. You typically need to have an enclosure for it as well just to avoid the possibility of a stray beam.
Good video to demo the copper clad laminated PCB circuit router function limitation using 3D printer modified head . I had seen more than 90% you tuber using 100% copper plate and making PCB circuit to achieve 0.1mm or much smaller width circuit path width (fake and not possible !) .I wonder how the electronic circuit ( never Shot/Ground with 100 copper PCB ??!!!!) And the Presenter video never show the Edge of the PCB !! When I ask them are you using laminated copper coil-plate super glue on top of the Insulating Bakelite material??? Nobody dare to answer back to clear my doubt !!! You are one of the ten percent people telling the Real Truth !!! Good job done .
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PLEASE PLEASE give some details about the rotary tool .
is it a dremel ? just a high RPM motor ? what is it ? what sort of RPM do i need for it ?
Details in the previous video here ruclips.net/video/IJxqXk-wdJw/видео.html
Goto aliexpress and search 200w (5.5”) or 300w (6.8”) 12000rpm 48v max spindle and they come with er 11 or 16 collets for $15-32 shipped.
Don't use same rotary tool as you would have same issue as Tech2C with tolerances and z-play. Just having a Dremel would solve this problem alone, as Dremel have a much better flex shaft. I had some chineseum rotary tool and Dremel, and even tried dremel flex shaft as a router on aluminum (bad idea), killed and changed bearings in flex shaft. Everything about Dremel is better than cheap chinese stuff, but even dremel have tiny bearings in a shaft, not very suited for side-load. BUT For this application I'd rather buy cheap 12V brushed motor with a small collet chuck (used and sold for purpose of drilling PCB).
@@glennedward2201 search "double bearing 775 motor" and "er11 chuck" instead..
@@avelkm A fellow AvE fan?
Having used a PCB milling machine 20 years ago I have a few recommendations for you. When milling you do not want to cut in the glass fiber substrate unless necessary. It will wear out the end mill in no time. A proper calibrated PCB mill only cuts into the copper and glue. And when routing the final cut-out, do it in one pass so you won't wear out the tip of the end mill. The tip you use for the fine milling on copper, and the shaft on glass fiber.
Prober end mills aren't cheap.
Ratbites (the small bridges holding the PCB in place) are convenient; but a word of warning about them: PCB's has a tendency to delaminate near them and put mechanical stress on the components. It's not a problem here; but if you use SMD components near the rat bite it may cause trouble.
I experienced this problem first-hand for one of our designs. I had pointed this problem out to a manufacturer; but they assured me they had this under control. Half a year later we received defective units back - all with the same symptom. Diagnosing the boards I found they all had a capacitor with a DC resistance of a few kilo-ohms. By casting the boards in resin, grinding them down and inspecting under microscope we learned the capacitors had cracks that originated from the rat-bite.
We call them mouse bites. 3 small holes and 2 larger holes on the outsides.
Love your channel - You do not use top end gear and the way you modify your printer with all the gear (drill, laser, 3d printer head, dremel, etc) is just amazing. Really shows what can be done.
Cheers
Jim
You could 3d print something to remove the slight Z movement. I'm thinking of something like an L - shaped bracket with a bearing, so the drill bit can go through the center of it.
Looks like the second attempt is not the same as the one from frame 10:48 and to frame 11:54 are they two different attempts? some of the holes look ragged and over the edges in the first one ?
Great video! thank you for sharing this information. I may give this a try in the future on my CNC.
One suggestion. Drill your holes first. The reason is because it is possible, especially when your end mill might be getting dull or poor quality laminate, for there to be a hint of tear out. Having a lot of copper around the hole at the time of the drill out will help support the surrounding copper.
I really did like your video! Thanks!
Just keep in mind that the fiberblass is abrasive and the copper is conductive. You really want to have a vacuum attachment of some sort or else it's going to get into your motors, belts, power supply, that exposed control board, etc.
If you plan to do this often, I recommend a Shapeoko or similar with a Suck-It attachment.
Check bCNC auto leveling, it uses the electrical contact of tool to pcb to compensate curved surfaces. Covering the pcb in WD40 will help with thinner mills, and keeps the dust in control (mud).
I tried bCNC a while ago. The auto bed leveling I couldn't get to work. I have used Marlin's inbuilt bilinear ABL using alligator clips on the PCB and drill bit. WD40 is a good idea!
chilipeppr fro me works fine but i like bcnc too.
the shaft of the flexible-dremel handpiece has 2 bearings, you could glue them in with some CA glue. when i did that on mine, no z play at all anymore.
Maybe print your own adapter with a spring between the bearings? Should be a nice usefull project. That is what i am planning for mine....
I have more than a year of experience with milling pcbs. I first tried with my 3d printer, then made a dedicated milling machine. For good results you absolutely have to use autoleveling. For pcbs larger than, let's say 3cm, you will have terrible results as on some areas you will barely scratch the surface or dig too deep. On my dedicated machine i am using MACH3 as the milling software, a free tool for probing and autoleveling the pcb and flatcam. The probing tool acts as a post processor for the gcode from flatcam and modifies it so the clearing is always consistent. I forgot the name of the software though.
Yes I agree. I had enabled the auto bed level feature in Marlin firmware of my 3D printer, and the intention was to show bed leveling for the V bit. If I can remove the slop in the flex shaft I'll revisit it.
Tech2C best option would be buying a dedicated brushless motor with collet included besides to less noise it has the capability of rpm control
The problem is basically that the copper clad laminate isn't guaranteed to be flat across it's surface, i've seen 'ripples' greater than 0.3mm. So what the Mach3 probing tool does is profile the surface and generates a Z axis pre-distortion of the G code to compensate for the out of flatness surface.
Also, I would order the Gcode files, so that you drill the holes first, the route the tracks, then clear the copper, then do the outline.
This stops pads from ripping off when the holes are drilled afterwards, as there is more copper around them.
There is no additional software needed in Marlin as its build in, just once enabled and mapped in Marlin (up to 12 probe level points) in ConfigH, and you use G29 command. Then follow this video to wire the touch place (in your case, you don't need one. Just clip the ground to the plate, and + to the end mill).
marlinfw.org/docs/gcode/G029-abl.html
marlinfw.org/docs/gcode/G029-abl.html
Is the "autoleveling" some device/sensor that Tech2C can possibly attach to the 'mill head' of his 3d printer, kinda like the one used to detect the proximity of the bed when using the 'printing head'? Actually, can the same sensor be used for autoleveling?
Have you thought of adding a small blower to the tool so that it can clear its path itself? You could probably use a small computer fan and some plastic tubing, that way you could even make it a weak vacuum by inverting said fan
Why did you cut the PCB smack bang in the center of your large board?
Let's be honest here, we've all overestimated certain sizes in the past...
@@pco1984 that's fair enough, just curious didn't mean to offend anyone.
Well I bought the PCB for this video, so I don't have an immediate use for the left over PCB afterwards.
You mean because you weren't thinking.
*smack dab
For those more into etching: You can do about the same thing with a fine tip Sharpie to lay down a mask that does a good job resisting both FeCl and CuCl2 etchants. Got a plotter head for my Prusa just for this.
That said, building a PCB router or converting a printer does cut out messing with chemical etchants and masking. I'd probably want to either mod in a vacuum line to take care of the shavings, or a coolant line to keep shavings mostly captive on the board or in a runoff bucket. The former option would probably be way easier on a retooled printer. Metal shavings can be a right pain in the ass around computers, exposed wiring, intake fans, etc.
13:30 but shouldn't you not solder onto a micrcontroller, as the heat could damage the component?
No it's quite OK to directly solder them (if I've understood your double negative properly!). But you should be quick, like with all pcb mounted components, and let any bad-looking joints cool off before retouching them. Ppl only use sockets to make them easy to change, if you want to reprogram them off-board.
Always Tin engraved PCB's. Use a heat gun and Oaty 95 paste. This ensures a quick local heat buildup when soldering. Bare copper has a tendency to spread the heat quickly and delaminates extremely easy. SMD parts are almost impossible to mill in. The copper surface has a tendency to chip at a certain thickness when using a vbit. The FR4 backer is usually pretty brittle at a small size. Easier to mount a .1mm pen from sharpie and etch.
If I make this 3d printed pcb at home and attached components the correct way will it work?
Another thing about isolation routing, it alters the electrical properties of the PCB substrate.
The PCB substrate acts much like a capacitor; conductors above and below an insulator.
Thinning the PCB substrate will change the capacitance of any traces passing over the thinned areas.
For a single-sided quicky PCB, not an issue.
For a double-sided PCB RF or audio amplifier, alterations in PCB capacitance would be a disaster.
Same with any high-speed circuitry; variations in capacitance = variations in impedance.
Point being made: Isolation routing is quick and dirty, emphasis on dirty.
Should use the end mills just for the outline/drills. Try using the laser diode for "isolation routing" on black spray paint which can be used as etch resist
Yeah I've never made a custom PCB but this tripped me out not using any chemicals.....but hey I guess it'll work for anything that doesn't need to be packed in tight!
Is black spray paint good enough for etching chemicals?
yes.
You could take a look at the German ‘Dremels’ made by Proxxon. The are more durable and stable. I have no experience yet with their flexshafts, but it might also not have any play in the head just like the main motors have.
Furthermore, it is not required to remove the whole nut to place a bit, only when it needs another collet size.
I got the same flexible shaft, and it doesn't have the Z axis problem! It has no play at all... I didn't buy any V bit because of that, but now that I see it doesn't have the issue I ordered a couple.
Very lucky there! I'm about to switch over to another flex shaft with no play. Cheers!
Excellent demonstration ! I have wondered if there was any way to do this with a mill...now I know how. Thank you very much. Hope to see more videos.
A better solution for holding down is Golf Club Grip Tape. It comes in wide rolls and you can release by turning on the heated to 55°C.
I like it. I don't know what it's for but I like it. Great for prototyping if you have gear like this and don't want to fiddle with printer, etch resist, chemicals etc for 2-5 boards and super tiny leads aren't an issue.
To those interested. Milling pcb starts after 7 minutes. Don’t use a Dremel spindle if you want a cleaner finish. Aliexpress has the 200w and 300w 8mm shaft with er11 or er16 collet holders for $15-$32 if you scroll around lowest price shipped.
Do the hole drilling first before the isolation... It stops pads from getting ripped off
Couldn't you print a collar of some sort, perhaps with a bearing that goes on the Dremel, could be adjustable with grub screws etc, keep the chuck in the same place
Can you take apart the extension head, and just print a new one (redesigned) that meets your desired tolerances? Seems like a perfect use case of the 3d printer =)!
Great sir I want know about electic part of 3d printer and cnc
Question. Could you use the normal 3D printer filament directly on the copper board as an object one layer deep? Then etch the board normally with the printed plastic as the resist?
You could try to modify the flexible shaft and put in a small thrust bearing?
Impressive that you can use one machine to make a PCB , and then a plastic housing for your projects. Maybe more 3D printer makers should start building this milling ability in to their machines to make the devices much more versatile. The same XYZ mechanism could be a 3D printer, light milling machine and laser engraver by swapping the head. A really fancy model could have the heads automatically changeable perhaps.
I think it would be smart to make a circular blower style part-cooler, like on a 3d printer head, but with much larger vents... and attach it to a vacuum... vacuum up the shavings as it goes 👌
aw nice it seems everyone i'm watching lately is an aussie i think maybe it's cos there's SO MUCH room to fly drones and the landscape is beautiful
can we just mount a pen and draw the circuit on pcb and etch it?
why on the center of the coper plate? shouldn't you have done it top left? well not necesarily but might get more out of the copper plate....
Silly little question, but does the X axis get inverted ? I mean for one sided board will the bottom copper layer be mirrored as it should ? If yes, who does it , flatcam ?
at 08;58 the holes drilled after the router clears - might make no difference to do it the other way around holes before routing - tearing of the copper clad
I would like to make some special cut business cards in wood. The size of a business card. Will this machine cut (-0.50) or maybe 1.0mm deep? and for the size how long would it take for something of that size?
Pretty clever of actually doing engraving by use of a flexible shaft. I’m in the concepting phase of a custom 3D printer and have been thing on how to do some simple CNC work with it as well, I might consider going this route as well to achieve that, as I don’t like a dremel on the toolhead of the machine itself considering it’s weight.
As to your Z free movement issue I imagine there are ways to get rid of this play with a little shim, or otherwise there will probably be other flex shafts that have less or no play at all.
I went to the local hardware store to see if other flex shafts had the same play. Yep they did, so I think it's by design than a fault with my unit.
The design considerations for these were never specced for high z constraint. That doesn't mean you couldn't install some lateral thrust bearings. As these dremels are intended for operation at very high RPM, I wouldn't recommend simply removing the lateral play by constraining the existing bearings or using any sort of friction shim or spring. You either need paired roller/thrust bearings or cone bearings that take care of rotational and lateral motion at the same time. The later are preferable since there are fewer surfaces for friction to be introduced.
God damn it. Every time the video starts I think I'm listening to Dave Jones. I'm still not quite convinced this isn't his channel.
Bummer! I totally thought it's Dave!
I about to make one of this machine for education, Do you do both side milling?
HI. I wonder how you managed to start a CNC GCODE in a simple 3d printer firmware? I mean.... flat cam generates G01 X...... GCODe, without Y-axis coordinates
Thank you for the nice video that shows how you can have your PCB ready in 20 minutes.
The 0.8mm end mill you have used seems a bit too large even for a board that does not use any surface mount devices. As you mention, smaller size end mills are available and can be used. One option would be to do the milling with 0.8mm and drilling the holes with a 0.6mm end mill.
Like others have mentioned, I also wondered why you would choose to mill your PCB right in the center of a large board. That certainly is not optimal utilization of the large board that you bought!
In your next video give a demo of making a PCB that has tiny SM devices like 0603 resistors and capacitors with 0.4mm end mill.
Do you think that engraver would cut into Cedar wood to make a business card type? or business cards?
can you not print your curcuit on to a base using a copper ( ink ?)
Which printer I could easily buy to attach something like that and make PCB?
Why did you cut it from the middle of the sheet?It's a rectangle,you could have use two existing outside edges
and had no waste.
impressive. i didnt think that the belt driven 3d printer was accurate enough to do something like this. ive just bought a dedicated milling machine which uses lead screws on all axis and this gives great accuracy. nice to see how it turns out on this system though.
For the Z-Axis play on the end shaft, you need to put spacer between the flexi-shaft and the end receiver. This involved taking the "hand piece" apart and either adding a flat washer to take up the space, or adding something like a piece of a paper where the flexi-shaft inserts into the receiver. That should help with the end play.
That is, if you can even open up the hand piece for maintenance.
Awesome video! :)
I think you might run into delamination issues (the copper layer splitting off from the fiberglass)with this kind of holes and since they are not lined with copper it may cause some issues with the circuit working properly.
Surely you could add a shim washer at the opposite end of the shaft to alleviate the up/down excess motion. I am interested in gettting one of these 3d printers!
Hi there thank you for the video... Your 3d printer I suppose is expensive , not all common guys can afford such a tool ... I am thinking if is not possibly to using cheap 3D printers with plastic filament to print the circuit on PCB and after common etching method , to eliminate that plastic with something ( maybe acetone ) and have a ready pcb for driling and mounting the electronics on it ...
What happens if you need to change the drill bit for the holes?
Currently i'm looking for a reliable solution to make pcb's without chemicals, and this one is quite interesting. Do you think the same could be done with laser? I mean, i've never seen anyone go from A to B without using acid.
he mate just a hint but make a small device with 2 crocodile clamps and a led and move your z axis 0.01mm this way you can level perfectly and have a perfect 0. or even override your z limit switch to do it automatically and even use z probing. clamp 1 croc on the bit and 1 on the clad. its both conductive so it acts as a switch.
I really liked the video, but could you please make a tutorial on how to use Flatcam?
can you call it a PCB if no printing is used to create it?
7:33 A simple electrical circuit light build could indicate Home position
Free play in any axis makes PC board tougher to make, but if the play is visible it's actually too much if you need accuracy because of small trace widths and/or pad sizes. For through-hole boards cut with endmills this may no be a problem, but for SMD parts cut with engraving bits, free play in the Z axis means irregular results, and in the X/Y axes you can actually break the tip off your engraving bit if it has a narrow taper.
Also, unless your work surface is hyper-smooth and hyper-level, you pretty much MUST use an auto-levelling script in your G-code if you want consistent cut depths. Manually adjustable work tables on 3D printers are not even remotely level enough as this is nearly impossible to do by hand without contact probes, etc.
Are these end mill cutters still 0.47US$ each? I see one for SFr 6.49. About $6 each.
Neat...can you put a tool change code in to put in a small drill, swap it out for the drills?
That's pretty slick. I want one now.
hey buddy thank you for this wonderful tutorial....i followed you and found that my y axis of ender 3 doesn't move a bit...i checked gcode there is one difference in code....your all y axis values are positive, but mine are all negative..all numbers have - (minus) sign before them....what could i do here?...if u could help it would be your favour on me....
A very useful video. I built an A3 plotter then added a router. I'm hoping to start making mt own PCBs soon.
DONT TURN IT ON. TAKE IT APART ....wait wrong channel.
suraj bhawal Bob's your uncle!!!
lol
Blimey!, It's smaller than half a bee's dick!
took me a minute to figure out that it wasn't Dave speaking :o
No, Dave's voice is a higher pitch.....for a hoot, on Dave's channel turn playback speed to .50 ...he then sounds like a drunken Grandmother.... :P
Great video. Thanks a lot. You are capable of explaining complex things in a fast and clear way. If you want to avoid breathing expoxy dust you can put a tiny bit of oil on the board is stead of a mask. ;) Best regards an thanks again.
Hello, I am trying to install Flatcam. But do not have any experience with Python, and little experience with Linux. The tutorials in "Flatcam" site, are quite advanced, and I cannot follow the process. Do you have any video on installing Flatcam? would be very much appreciated. Regards
Thanks for sharing , I was thinking about buying 3d printer to make enclosures for my electronics projects , Now i am seriously thinking to buy it for PCB fabrication also .
But its not stiff solid enough to make 0,4mm routes like fotprint for TQFP100. Needle will drift too much.
Creative video shot, thank you for sharing it, keep it up :)
I was about to comment it was not needed to mill out the copper areas, but then you explained it as a solder mask of sorts. Nice thought.
Solder mask has different purpuses. This is just a PCB without filling plane. Solder mask goes on top of traces and all the areas that need to be isolated to either improove safety ratings, or protect againts environmental effects or ESD, or improve tha range of soldering temperature/heat that traces and pads will withstand... The purpuses for filling empty board space with a polygon or leaving it blank are completely different.
@@Mr.Leeroy yes I agree with everything. My comment was related to the fact that milling only the isolation paths would be enough and milling all the copper surface away is not necessary/waste of time, but them he said on the video that he did It this way to make soldering easy as there's no solder mask, which makes sense because there's much less to short circuit with.
I get the use, but I found this wording of "acting like a solder mask" wrong on so many levels.
If you are having such problems with shorting, I'd suggest improoving soldering skills starting with using no flux solder wire and learning to apply gel flux manually controlling the amount for the actual solder task. You would be surprised how much it affects the result.
I don't know how one would accidentally short anything even across 0.4mm gap and especially 0.8mm here. You have to actually make effort to create a bridge across a gap, because when solder is heated in flux it acts like a drop of fluid that due to it's density is highly attracted to other metals and it's particles to each other. So solder makes nice rounded shapes and just splits across the gap or jumps to one side. To create a bridge you actually have to apply less flux to control how 'slippery' it is for the blob to jump across the gap. Comes with practice.
Hi! It's interesting! How do you suppose to mill a double sided PCB (ECB)? This example is a very simple case and not useful for a dense circuits that need to be fit in a limited space.
Great video.. I'll be using a Shapeoko 3 CNC, but your software hints and results with that bit give me hope that I can do this too!
What motor did you use?
how about using a sharpie marker instead to draw the artwork for etching,??? the routing seems ok but it is nasty with all that glass dust
Hello
Excellent video. Ive just got an Anet A8 3d printer, and having doing countless etchings, i want to do this way.
Do you have a tutorial of converting the parts. Coincidentally, ive just had in today a replacement extruder complete, so this would be the time to convert.
Thanks
R
...don't forget to run g21 at the start when working with grbl and engraving pcbs.....don't ask me why, trust me on this one. a great trick for leveling is using a multimeter put into continuinity mode by the way so you can level it perfectly with the bed
I have a homemade cnc with a Dremel as the spindle. This is exactly what I need to do to get it dialed in
Instead of using double side sticky tape, use mirror clamps and screw the plate down from the edges. You can use as many needed to hold the board down. Or you could use a thin piece of strip wood or plastic to hold down the edges.
That way you don't risk bending the board while removing it. After all, you could reuse that board to create many other PCB/ECB's
And, if you need to etch/engrave the other side for double side board, you can get the board in the exact location needed easily
Isnt that more like a cnc cutter now?
very funny to cut the little board out of the middle of the big board...
You did not mention which tools you used for the PCB and toolpath design?
Hi, another work holding tip that has some other benefits is single sided tape (or book covering seal) and Super Glue (CA Glue). Apply tape or book covering film to both the workpiece and the work surface then stick the 2 surfaces together with the CA glue. Often this has more hold than simple double sided tape or does have some other benefits. For your software (marlin and the CAM) is there no software backlash compensation available as this MIGHT overcome or help with your issue with the collet holder.
Add a shim washer to the flex drill assembly
Which CNC machine are you using?
Thank you for everything share ❤
hello thanx for all your 3d printer videos. i have an idea but dont know is it possible or not. i saw some 15w co2 laser tubes on aliexpress can it be used with our hypercubes. of course laser tube stood still and light will directed with mirrors. just an idea.
There are plans out there for exactly such a machine. You typically need to have an enclosure for it as well just to avoid the possibility of a stray beam.
For pcb leveling add z endstop wire to your toolhead as its metal and ground to pcb itself and enable mesh bed leveling. Absolute perfection.
Did you consider or try using PLA as an etch resist?
Well done!
From Russia with respect, you get great
What you need is a vaccum hose that is running next to the drill. Otherwise excellent project.
What printer is this and how have you modified it?
Good condition
What is model name of 3d printer
how did you export the GCODE file ?
I am trying to do it but it saved as type (All files) and my machine can not read it .
thanks for replying .
could you solve it? I have the same problem
@@ahmetemindilben yeah, when you name your project name it as .gcode
ex: xxxx.gcode
Useful video, accurate work and clear explanation.. Thank you very much indeed.
Good video to demo the copper clad laminated PCB circuit router function limitation using 3D printer modified head . I had seen more than 90% you tuber using 100% copper plate and making PCB circuit to achieve 0.1mm or much smaller width circuit path width (fake and not possible !) .I wonder how the electronic circuit ( never Shot/Ground with 100 copper PCB ??!!!!) And the Presenter video never show the Edge of the PCB !! When I ask them are you using laminated copper coil-plate super glue on top of the Insulating Bakelite material??? Nobody dare to answer back to clear my doubt !!! You are one of the ten percent people telling the Real Truth !!! Good job done .
Really thankful for this idea! I have a quite sturdy coreXY-printer and will do my first mill tomorrow. :)
Very good 😊work😊