Making PCBs the RepRap way!
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
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RepRap 3D printers are built to replicate themselves as much as possible - and that includes fabricating their own electronics! Today we check out a way of producing PCBs that you can do on any 3D printer with a pen and a handful of 3D printed parts.
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Staedtler Pens go.toms3d.org/S...
Etching solution go.toms3d.org/N...
Ender 3 -_- go.toms3d.org/E...
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This was neat to watch and very much reminded me of my electronics class in high school! We didn't use a pen, we applied traces via a sticky-backed material. Plus, our solution had an aquarium heater to keep it warm, heh.
I've heard of the ancient technology of sticky-backed traces, but have never had the honor to witness it myself.
@@MadeWithLayers Can you name some sites to download the example pcb design files. I'm a Mech Engineer and need it in dxf or dwg format
3:34 for a split second i thought Tom was pouring superglue on the bearings hahah
Oh, it wasn't only me. :-)
Thought the same
It can help to reduce the strain on the moving parts...
Me to
superglue IS the best lube just add a pinch of unicorn fart and mix vigorously! I read it on the internet, it simply has to be true!
3:11 ahhh... the good old TOT method. I never got it to work
Yeah, that's an excellent effect. ToT is ahead of his time.
Yep, you have to watch the "Clickspring Time Travel" vid!!
@@OzFaxFlyer I did back then. Also the wintergatan one and french guy cooking... Great minds and stuff ..
Ok.. There /has/ to be a HowTo video going around on just what the trick is! Many have tried. Only some seem to get it to work.
Maybe it's shared at one of the youtube creator meetups..
I'm going to stick to the hacksaw or grinder for now..
@@ElectraFlarefire I got it working on spaghetti. but nothing harder than that. at least not in 3 parts. I wish there was an open source wiki for that
when I was young I used the Edding permanent marker and it worked really well also the staedler works well but you should check always the traces before put the PCB on the solution. I remember how I had to re-do the layout tons of times with my marker and ruler.
If complicated, when I ended that project my teacher told me that I could use a laser printer, and an iron to get the same result, but always checking the traces.
Halfway between both, if i am going to make a pcb (which i very rarely do when i can have a two layer made so quick and cheap) i spray paint the pcb and then throw it under the laser and have it cut the negatives for the traces exactly as you have.
I use a co2 but i think it would work just fine with a diode laser on a 3d printer. There are some inherent hazards related to that radiation which you'll have to decide how you manage but it has been the fastest and easiest method of diying it i have found.
Outstanding video, your content gives me tons of motivation, thank you.
I mostly use the iron-on method but I've been wanting to give laser a try.
@@chaos.corner I started with the iron on method and i think that worked well (assuming you calibrated your printer) but i found it took me a long time start to finish.
It's still pretty tedious to make a two sided board and you still have to be careful drilling regardless of which method you choose so it isn't perfect either.
@@giliant True. I mostly work one-sided which can take a little juggling and a few jumper wires but works pretty well. I have been moving to SMT though and that makes things a little trickier since through-hole stuff tends to give you freebies. My printer hasn't required any calibration fortunately.
Someone's been watching This Old Tony.
yepp, i tought the same
A friend of mine who was making custom audio systems back in the university. He was using a laser printer and glossy paper. Print out the PCB layout with the printer on the paper and then using an iron transfer the layout to the copper sheet. After a few seconds in eching solution he got the PCB. I have seen this method with my own eyes. Litteraly 5 mins and you have a PCB without the holes.
I use the toner transfer method, tight traces & gaps are still an issue but it's relatively accurate. Essentially print the design onto (thin) glossy photo paper with a toner printer, transfer the toner onto the blank PCB with a hot iron, soak the board & remove the photo paper while leaving the toner adhered to the copper then drop it in the etching solution. Its a convenient & low tech way to get it done pretty quickly, once you navigate past the pitfalls the boards can be quite consistent. Most failures are due to the ironing bit not going well... Holes are still a pain to drill, I tap them all first then go at it with the micro drill bits. A pillar drill of some sort would be useful!
Much better to laser jet print pcb artwork onto cheap photo paper then iron on to clad board never fails good results with good high resolution
My dad used this method, worked quite well. He used a modified laminator instead of an iron.
never got a stable results. always was some inconsistency in that method. either overheat or underheat, overpressed or underpressed, not enough time, too much time, not enough paper between iron and pcb, or too much paper. also highly depends on an iron you use. ugh.
just too much variables to control.
It's so much better, and in my opinion actually easier to print on a transparency, and use a UV lamp to expose it then, develop and etch. And you can do pretty much the same process to put on a UV solder mask.
Did it this way in school about 15 years ago. Worked a charm.
Wondering about printing plastic onto the copper then acid etching
That's quite a sound idea. Especially with a smaller nozzle.
I was thinking the same thing. But it should stick really, really well then with resistive plastics and after the etching you should be able to remove the plastic without taking the copper off on the small traces...
I was thinking the same thing...
As someone who works with metal, its really tough to find an adhesive that bonds (reliably) with copper, I wanna say its pretty unlikely that it would bond well. But that was also my initial thought when I saw the title. Probably worth trying with different types of plastics.
So far PLA and PETG don't wanna stick. I'ma try other plastics
I have no experience making pcbs, but I was kind of thinking that pens would not work. What you really need is something like nail polish.
Idea for how to apply ink or nail polish or whatever very fast: make a stamp using a 3D printer. I have a little bit of experience with this, and what I will say is that a "hard" material like PLA does not apply ink to paper very well, because the paper and the bottom of the stamp do not fully come into contact unless you can deform one or the other. PLA works ok, but what you probably want is TPU (haven't tried TPU myself yet, but I intend to do that someday...). I'm guessing the same would be even more true for applying something to a pcb blank, since it's harder than paper, which means that you are really counting on the stamp to deform a little bit.
Sharpie permanent markers work for the etch resist. Have never heard of any other brand working for making printed circuit boards. Good video, Tom!
I second this
"old process" is an understatement, I was tought to make PCBs this way using a pen plotter connected to a BBC model B back in the early 90s and it wasn't a new technique then.
Keep at it, the technique can achieve good results. I echo the comments of others on recommending ferric chloride as the etchant, the more modern alternatives tend to be harsher on the etch resist.
Interesting attempt, but getting the pattern right is only half the problem. Drilling holes and routing mount points is the next issue, and then making double sided boards which are increasingly required for anything other than widgets. Very hard to beat the Oshpark or pcbway offerings for this especially with their accelerated processing times for prototypes.
But, if you were to make such a system yourself, this is my wishlist:
1. Pattern drilling for all vias, mounting pads, and routed mount points. Has to be done BEFORE copper patterning.
2. Plate through holes for double sided processing.
3. Coat with resist and then laser expose for super precision, registering both sides for double sided.
4. Regular etch.
So, we need a milling/drilling capability, and laser resist expose.
OR - predrill and then 3D print a conductive material directly onto non-clad FR4.
As stated, these are all more difficult than the Oshpark options, but I appreciate the attempt.
Vias are the bane of all homebew PCBs I think.
The question I always wanted to ask: why not print PLA on top of the PCB? No extra tools needed to attach. The only problem could be adhesion, which could be solved by soluble agents.
Should have done this with photosensitive PCBs. Would have worked perfectly and you can use whatever pen works the best with the printer.
I know the video is all about using the the 3D printer but the method where you print the PCB on a laser printer then transfer the paper print to the board with an iron, then etch is much faster, more accurate and a lot easier.
I bought a $60 Laser Printer and a $5 magazine to print my PCB diagrams onto and a $6 bottle of nail polish remover to transfer the toner (perfectly) to my board. $10 gallon of Muriatic acid (which should last me nearly forever 😂) from the hardware store and boom, perfect PCBs. The acid eats the copper so quickly that the toner (which is melted plastic so it doesn't corrode anyways) has zero problems with trace definition. Even with traces as small as .254 mm wide.
Hey, here's a crazy idea: Why not print the tracks in PLA or another plastic that the 3D printer can handle directly on the PCB? I mean, that's somewhat the whole idea with PCB Toner transfer... toner is a mixture of plastic and pigments that gets melted on paper (or a PCB in our case) providing a pretty nice etch resistant mask. I think it would be quite fiddly to get this working, and you'd need a very flat PCB surface to begin with... anyway... I think this would be an awesome idea for a video!
I did have good results with the method. I used the black Steadler pen with a different pen holder (it also had play though) and I used FeCl3 as etchant. I think the HCl/H2O2 or peroxodisulfate just attacked the ink too much - there is no need to use the hardcore oxidants.
For my projects I didn't continue using the method though because the pen tip is pretty coarse (couldn't really find pens with thinner tips) which necessitates large clearences between traces and you can only add the largest smd components without shorting pins. Also, chinese PCB factories ship insanely cheap. But if you want a DIY solution lithography is probably the way to go. You can even add your own solder mask by that method!
You should explore if you could use the same process (hot end mounted pen) for something like calligraphy (think writing out wedding invitations or signing your name on a thank you card). It would be great to see the process you find from scanning a signature to creating an STL file to creating the GCODE etc. Cool video!
i toner transfer PCB's for prototyping quite often of course that's a much different process then using a CNC but it works out really good
Spray the board with lacquer first (preferably white). Draw on the lacquer and dissolve the undrawn parts away with something like isopropyl alcohol. Etch with ferric chloride.
Also, your drawing technique from what I can see in the video is using a dabbing motion with the pen to fill in copper areas whereas the pen should stay down for each entire track (or as much as possible). The raster file seems to make no difference between track drawing and area filling. Again this may just be my view of the video file being wrong. Does it draw a continuous outline for each copper section first without lifting the pen?
I ought to add a conductive pen or five to my next pile of materials and parts. Not for anything meant to last, but just to see how practical a fully-drawn PCB would be.
To etch FAST (
3:10 This old Tom... you shenanigan-fu is strong!
Maybe a method using a laminate board and a bonding board would make things easier. Using an ink for bonding (ie: magnetic/etchant ink), draw/print the schematic on the copper clad laminate board, place the laminate board on flush over the bonding board, and heat the boards together for the deposition onto the bonding board. ;)
Using a laser printer and photo paper transferring the printed circuit to the pcb using an iron I think is the best diy way. But I could see adapting a 3d printer into a cnc with a brushless motor and a speed controller.. And using it to drill out all the holes could be super useful.
First PCB's i made were done with laser printer transparencies and UV reactive coated boards. Theyre probably still floating around in some medical devices in a hospital somewhere. A photocopier also works really well for the transparencies. It means you can do double sided PCB's easily, up to A5 size, by creating a mirror of your files and folding along the centre line on an A4 transparency. Its not accurate enough for hairline tracks, but if you stick to fat boys then you're golden. Then just expose to UV light to develop.
Would there happen to be a tutorial showing how to do the things you said to do in flatcam? By the way, I love your videos Thomas.
Wow! Thomas must have made a zillion videos by now - impressive!
they all have great ideas but it's NEVER taking less time than usig my printer and iron. personally i'm thinking of getting a small flocking heat transfer press, i'm looking for speed and efficiency not fancy technical procedures.
My favourite bits of these experiments are the issue-turned-feature elements - @17:30 the black particles showing the solution movement :) Not that you just couldn't be bothered run the solution through a filter first...
Great video - given the developments of FUSION 360, you should remake a printboard designed in Fusion 360, and using interphase to Creality Ender 3 in Fusion.
Wow, this is even more effort for less reward than UV lithography etching
Yeah, I tried both pen and cnc 15 years ago. Both were useless. Apparently nothing has changed. Except now you can get your pcb from China for almost nothing
Ordered some CCL anti etching pens from ebay (also available from ali). Working well, but I do have some issues with larger areas. Still testing though.
Try use blue laser diode for make pcb (1-3W)
i tried with a sharpie and it worked reall well, of coarse by hand though.
I don't know, I use a paint-pen to do these stuff. But I drill first (by hand) and then draw. By hand. I don't say my PCBs look nice, but they get the job done. :)
Hey Tom! What about trying some kind of 3d printing filament as a mask? Couldn't this work? You'd also not need that pencil holder construction anymore.
Hi there. New subscriber to the channel. Enjoying your work.
If you have access to a laser engraver / cutter there is a much more reliable method. 1st spray the entire board with a basic gloss car paint then convert your PCB mask design to a simple bitmap. Drop the prepared PCB into the laser and ENGRAVE away the paint to leave the copper to be etched bare. After a light wiping to get rid of any left over paint debris the boards can be etched to reveal the PCB. A quick wash in acetone removes the rest of the paint leaving the finished high quality PCB. I work in a school and use this method to batch produce 100 PCB's at a time and it is much more reliable and WAY cheaper than using photo-etch resist copper clad board and more accurate than a pen method. I almost never get any failed PCB's at a fraction of the cost AND time. With this method the drill holes can also be reliably etched into the pads making drilling much more accurate for students to do. I hope this is of use.
Well, you may print some plastic right on the board, instead of using a pen. That would resist the acid and give you also the resolution you need, in particular if you have a 0.2 nozzle.
Ooh I have one of E3D's 0.15mm nozzles (a full-size Benchy with one of those and 0.08mm layers takes *8 hours* to print 😹). Maybe I'll give this a go sometime 🤔 0.15mm is way finer than I get with my standard laser printer + transparency + presensitised laminate method 😲
@@AndrewGillard For prototyping and printing over night no method is cheaper and easier than using the own factory tools 😉
Has anyone ever considered using filament as the etch resist and just 3D printing it directly? I don't know the etch resistant properties of common filaments. Or how easy it would be to remove after etching. (A thin layer should remove easily, perhaps with acetone as needed?) It seems to me that nozzle diameters would be better than the pen diameter and coverage more consistent.
Use heated bed to dry out ink
How about using PCBs with UV reactive coating, so you only have to print the mask onto the PCB, then put it under UV light for a few minutes to get the coat reacted, and then wash it with natriumhydroxide solution do get rid of the coat which was exposed to the UV light...
This way you haven't to find a pen resitant to the acid.
Nochmal auf deutsch, nimm am besten PCB-Rohlinge mit UV-Lack, dann brauchst du keinen Stift der das Natriumpersulfat aushält.
Die verbrauchte Lösung kannst du Problemlos entsorgen, indem du sie erst neutralisierst (Natriumcarbonat) und dann Stahlwolle rein gibst.
Das Kupfer wird sich an der Stahlwolle abscheiden.
3:50 - this is SO me! :)
When are we (you and the community) going to start building the ideal 3D printer?
Probably never as there isn't really such a thing, everyone has their own use cases and specific requirements.
what you'd really want is a 500mw laser (cost about 30 bucks)
coat the whole thing in the ink and make sure it's a good deep coat.
and then laser off the paint. if you have a stronger laser you might even burn the holes through it.
Even better is to use a laser onto a PCB with photo sensitive layer, then develop and etch with hydrochloric acid 10% with a drop of peroxide (Etching time < 1 minute)
I've made 100's of etched pcb's. Just use the toner transfer method.
I really liked using the 3d printer to heat and slosh the fluid, Very good idea. will you cover any other ways like painting the PCB and then using a laser to burn it away or toner transfer sheets or is this going beyond the 3d printing area you so expertly cover ? I brought a cheap XY vice that can be mounted to a pillar drill and tried that to drill the holes, it took a bit of practice, but it worked well enough to make a few boards.
The first layer of ink needs to dry off completely before the second layer. And ferric chloride is wayy better with this kind of pcb
Nice video, well done, thanks for sharing it with us :)
You can put a laser on an 3d printer , and spray paint the pcb . But even then the standart steppers dont have enough resoliution and microsteping doesnt produce repeatable results . So i 3d printed another xy machine whith 1 to 3 gearing . And that Works atreat .
The toner way is the way for DIY. ( prin on normal paper, press it with a iron, dump with acentone and alcohol solution and gently rub the paper away)
But, if you are willing to wait... china...
very nice tom, very very nice video
It’s great to show what you’ve learned even when things don’t work out, but the title of this video(“Making PCBs the RepRap way!’) is pretty misleading. Apparently, if you want to make PCBs, the RepRap way is to make three attempts at the resist method and then send your design out to a PCB fab company. How about changing the title to “PCBs with a RepRap: lessons in abject failure”? So: good video, but needs an honest title.
It’s not in the description; Where did you buy the PCB blanks?
Great video!!:-)
About your sponsor, I have newer understand how such places as skillshare can exist, I am not hating on them but 5 min of searching on RUclips can give you at least the same knowledge.
Nice, but at this type of accuracy, could you not just mill it with this setup? Or electro etch (see Applied Science youtube channel)? Using ink pens seems silly, when you've upped the accuracy with the printer.
I have never drawn pcbs with 3d printer, but when drawing by hand, one layer is good enough. At least with ferric chloride as etching fluid. Perhaps you scratched the first layer with the other ones and that is why it didn't work out.
you should try with a wedding 140 S 1,3mm
Do people do the reverse? Mill away all material that is not trace?
Could you share your agitation file ! I use the laser printer method myself and would love to use your idea of using the printer for a heat source and agitator 👍
I have a simple question - did you try to use a 3d print filament instead of a marker to draw paths?
Hi ; as a newcomer on pcb making , I wonder if a 5w laser can be mounted in place of the pencil and by painting the whole surface of the copper with the resist , and then exposing the traces that going to be etched out by burning the resist with the laser, maybe will be more accurate that way
...have you been watching Alec Steele's metal forging videos? You seem to have picked up some of his fun editing tricks. :D
The link for the etching solution is for dry powder salts (every result I see is for a powder)... I'm not seeing anything liquid -- are you just mixing that with water, or are you seeing different Amazon search results? ... p.s. -- Any reason to not just print the mask on to the PCB with PLA? (Speaking of that... would it make sense to make a drill template with PLA?)
afaik it's always powder i never seen it liquid myself.
Just ignore that link anyway, what you actually want to search for is ferric chloride (if it is avaliable in your region anyway). It works much better for home etching, and is actually safer to handle than this etchant anyway (although safety & disposal precautions still need to be followed, and it will permanently stain almost everything it comes in contact with).
@@zrobotics I was thinking the same thing. I was confused because I thought it was supposed to be ferric chloride also.
Why not just use an etch resist pen?
A lot of work went into this but I am wondering, what would happen if you simply printed 1 or 2 layers of PETG directly onto the copper board instead and then etched that?
Acetone would release the CA. I really enjoyed this vid, thank you.
3:05 So you got infected by Tony's superpowers. But remember, that with great power comes great responsibility!
Wohoo, 2 Months Free!!
Etching solution? timing? PCB copper thickness? anything useful? :/
Ferric Chloride would be better controlled than Nitric or whatever you were using. Doesn't look as good on video of course...
Why are you putting super glue on the bearing ???
10:58 "ChTEADLer" pen, I've had pronounced it wrong my whole life!
Why didn't you just use a printer and print the design on some transparent paper to use photoresist ?
Why not paint the board black and scrape the ink away with a tiny motor and a cheap v-bit? Permanent pen was a bad even when it was a popular method
What does anybody think about polyzinc ABS filament for 3d printing? Quicker melting/drying possibly.
Someone has been watching This Old Tony
14:10 would be very pretty for the backside of nerdy playing cards
I liked it better make PCBs on SLA printer!
Try Edding permanent marker
what is that etchent solution you're using?? im used to useing feric chloride!
I use same printer
Better risults with goje
Shoulda used Ferric Chloride
You get the best results if you use a laser on your 3d printer
Holy cr@p, man, why did you do this on top of your 3D printer?
I finally know how to pronounce staedtler
Sprichst du beruflich viel Englisch? Dein Englisch ist sehr angenehm zu verfolgen - was man von manch anderen Deutschen nicht behaupten kann.
i haven't watched the whole thing did he credit T2C?
The wrong type of etch! Use ferric chloride, that marker is designed to resist to this, not the one you used.
Superconductor...ftw.
Bit late but hey,
in the years when i wasn't alive (before 2000), people often used "iron" method of doing this. Basically, they had printed layout on paper with laser printer, then they put paper onto the copper, heated everything and the ink would melt, stick onto copper and bake onto it. Afterwards, they just etched it.
I tried this method many times when i was younger and it worked well. But later in school, we had to use a drawing method, which i got really used to, and here are some tricks:
- About the pen. You can actually buy specialised pens for PCBs, they aren't that expensive (i got mine with 0,2mm tip for like 2€), they work the best. Also i've heard the sharpies works good.
- Slow that thing down. While its drawing, it actually leaves a trace of LIQUID behind, and if its too fast, it draws that liquid with the tip, leaving indent in the liquid in the middle (the marks at the last PCB). When slow enough, the liquid will dry before that could happen, and it will be more thick (in Z axis..) thus more etcher-resistant, also it won't leave any marks.
- You can actually repair some traces/spots that has been broken whiel drawing by using very fine brush and acetone and/or sharpie again. Just underlight that PCB and you'll nicely see, where there's less ink, and just add some more. BUT, dab it, not draw. By dabbing, a literal drop of ink will disperse onto the surface, and there is a big chance of scratching off existing ink while drawing. So, dab.
- After everything is done and you like what is drawn, before etching, put the PCB in oven or heat it with a heatgun a bit. The ink will bake onto the copper and will resist etcher a lot more.
- Also i don't know what etching solution you used, but use ferric chloride. It isn't as aggresive to the ink as others and does a bit better job imo.
we still use iron btw
@@dhupee Yep, Iron with a laser toner printer is so faster, more precise and cheaper.
@@alexandrevaliquette1941 if you have laminator it's better
Much faster for me to print with a laser onto magazine paper, iron that to a board, then "rinse" away the magazine paper. The reason magazine paper works so well is because of how thin it is. Once the laser image has been ironed on (the iron remelts the toner, which then sticks to the copper), you just soak the paper for a bit in warm water, and it just breaks down and disappears.
But this IS cool.
Meh, laser prints are trash for masking, can never get them dark enough for smd traces... or any traces really, just cussing and filling the missing bits with a sharpie like a pleb, and if you're at it, just do it with a sharpie and a ruler from the get go. Or, you know, just get some photoresist film and do it like a normal person.
Edit: Regarding the etching solution, from the ease of use and availability, i prefer the H2O2/HCl solution - I mean, you can get peroxide and hydrochloric acid drain cleaner in any hardware store in any country. Also it's easier to work with, you can see the etching happening
This video is not sponsored by jlcbcp
Should it be?
Toner transfer is still my go to when i need a modestly complex prototype in a few hours
This is the kind of video jlcbcp needed.
Tom, you brilliant man, I've worked in labs with heated agitator baths for years and I have never once thought to use my 3d printer for this purpose. My life has changed.
Yeah. I love how he just casually places the etching tub on the build plate that's already oscillating, without calling attention to it. Like, "oh, yeah, doesn't everybody do it like this?"
I love the 3dp as pcb agitator :)
Jup! Very clever! Why not?? It has a heatbed included for the acid solution... very very clever!!! 👍👍👍
@@Saartekk
Heatbed is not the best idea.
You have a large flat area, the liquid surface is losing a lot of heat through evaporation.
The simpler method is, use a zip-lock bag. My favorite is using FeCL3 etching, but it works the same idea using other chemicals too. I put a ball of roughly 2cm of FeCl3 in the zip-lock bag, pour in hot water, FeCl3 quickly dissolve. Then insert the PCB. Seal the ziplock. Put the bag flat down on a plate. The agitation is done by simply tilting the plate +10 degrees then -10 degrees.
I think much cleaner method is using etch resistant paint and 2.5-5W laser to burn out pain and than etch.. plenty of videos on RUclips and laser is much more precise than pen can and can be easyli attached to 3dprinter and enhance G code as well.. and it's just much cooler to use laser than pen :)
Yeah, but then you're using a friggin laser.
Thomas Sanladerer and the problem with that is .... what? That’s what they make laser goggles for!
Careful, copper is really good at reflecting the beam back.
A sharpie would do the job
The part made to hold the pen seems like it's a little bit over-engineered. Maybe one could design something with a little springy bit of PLA in one part. I thought of this after watching the Veritasium video on compliant mechanisms
Ferric chloride will attack the ink less than the acid you used I suspect.
I can use almost any permanent marker with ferric chloride
I was thinking he was gonna use that instead of the stuff he used
That works for sure. My father was repairing incomplete photolithography images that way back in the 80s...
I made PCBs with permanent markers (aka "laundry markers") with ferric chloride in the '70s. I wasn't the first.