Most INSANE game is the one that starts at 48:20 This whole series got crazier and crazier as it went on. If you don't have time for such a long vod and just want to watch the one that made me and everyone watching on Twitch lose our minds, that's the point to start!
maybe it's just instinctual fear kicking in from seeing a bunch of MMM and tanks parking on your front door laying siege while you don't have battery overcharge and the mass to bear out the dps lol
What if Clem is actually just 3 French men in a Clem suit and this is a fair match? That's the only logical explanation he's able to do so well. /s Great games!
I would love to see more formats with professional SC2. I know at top tier play masters have to devote everything to being the best at one thing. But it's so refreshing and novel. It'd be amazing to have a few tournaments sprinkled in throughout the year. Archon mode, team games, etc. If PIG or anyone is looking for ideas, I think mono-team match-ups could be really interesting with professionals. I want to see how match-up balance plays out when there's more units and different play styles complementing each other. I can't fathom how fun it would be to see the loosey-goosey players team up with their regimented counterparts.
Holy cow Clem is a monster. Even through all of that he really didn't even lose to his opponents. He only lost to being short two monitors and four hands.
Holy shit, what a sick third game. That was one the most amazing games I have ever seen. How Clem handled this was inhuman. Absolute banger, thank you to all 4 players who made this possible!
This is my third time watching this series along with catching part of it live. This style of content is so fun to have watched from harstem/mana pov. Truly god-tier content pig
Hi Pig, Great cast. Looks like there were a lot of frame drops in this video, which I assume was from you tabbing out and switching discord channels (or otherwise running sc2 in background somehow). In the future consider using the deafen and mute hotkey if there's only one vc of interest. Should prevent any frame drops from swapping in or out. It could also be the case that I'm an idiot talking here. Great content regardless, keep it up!
I feel like in any game with an archon team they should have some sort of dropship 100% of the time once they are able to get it out. Whether it is a prism or dropship or even drop overlord. Having someone able to dedicate 100% effort to microing a drop is so powerful against a single player.
7:36: The Nova that took Clem from a 20-army-supply advantage to equal =0 8:00: Max's "I think we lost" and Harstem's incredulous "You think we lost!?" followed by crushing Clem army xD 47:05: Wow, going in with no shields was... bold. Lost like 1/3 of the army just walking into the fight. 47:25: "I don't have a build." "Don't worry about it." I mean, they're only playing Clem, afterall. 55:30: This defense was fantastic. Immaculate forecfields. 1:01:00: More clutch forecfields. 1:01:51: Vikings can crush Dark Templar by landing on them, confirmed ;p 1:02:08: Wow, again with the forcefields! 1:05:40: I can't believe Clem didn't push and win there; over double the army supply! Those Storms scared him off and saved the game =o 1:06:15: 3 brains and still let that Lib kill 6+ Probes for no reason ;p 1:01:07: Warp prism pilot is a traitor! 1:10:47: HOLY STORM-GASM, BATMAN! Honestly, they didn't kill that much more than they lost but it was sure as hell beautiful xD Prisms sharking around and Templar bullying. Fantastic. 1:13:44: Again with just letting the Lib kill tons of Probes... why? 1:14:13: Even at this point, Clem was still up in supply... I can't believe Clem won a game against 3 high-level brains, even with a bar on Zealots/Disruptors. And he almost won 2 more as well! Incredible.
I'm surprised there isn't more "chat strat". Every time the protoss team types, it costs them only 1/3rd their apm but if Clem responds, it costs him 100% of his :D
Amazing series, Clem is a monster with 400 apm in that last game, I really thought he had it in the midgame but amazing perserverence from the archon bois
Hey PiG. can you maybe make a short video explaining how to play on PTR. Im maybe a little dumb but it took me a view minutes to figure it out and right now there were like 10 players in the general chat , im not sure if there were way more. Also should we send our replays somewhere particular?
Ez win? Serral has over 95% wr against toss. And over 90% against Terran. Only down to 60-70% against Zerg itself. The last time Serral lost was because he made a massive mistake and got caught in a time freeze with most of his army. You don’t see that every year in his ZvP game. On the other hand, Solar went 5-0 against Serral before.
@@clorkmagnus ….no. Just no, doesn’t matter how imbalanced Zerg is…couldn’t win a single game. Maybe catch a single game if they were to ban multiple units like in this game. Maxpax alone is close to 50% to serral
i think i agree that the reaper is the least balanced unit in the game in theory. I can imagine an AI with perfect micro beating every other perfect AI using reapers, and also any human player.
Eh. That's not as bad as it looks, an archon team is *always* going to be worse than a single player with the same APM because they have less ability to carry out a single unified plan. So they're forced to use that APM in less efficient ways. Even if it would be the 'right' thing to do, they can't put 500APM into inhumanly perfect stalker micro - they're 'only' able to micro those stalkers as well as MaNa. Which don't get me wrong is still *very well*, but it's not as good as you'd expect from an actual 800APM Protoss player. And the archon team needs to communicate with each other, which causes oversights and delays in reaction time (like with that adept).
@@TriangleChloros Not true, what a good archon team needs is not unified plan but unified platform. This platform can be something like you mentioned - roles in a preformed plan, but it can also be distribution of territory management if the players think in terms of poking in 3 directions with 3 small armies, or layering line of map awareness (1 macro player, 1 defensive player, 1 poke player); roles assigned by modes of attack (psychological disruption, interceptors, aggroers with a mass army to constantly pose threat,...); a platform can also emerge from shared flaws, such as the incapacity of micro managing resources distribution between 3 egoist type players, which could evolves into a super defensive style that prioritize building up infrastructure to support that egotism; or maybe the 3 egoists could let one player play at a time while the others watch as spectators until they announce themselves intervening at crucial juncture to change the flow of the match completely with the stamina the spectators reserved, their hunger to play and the 3rd party insight they gained from watching the game developed in the backseat, etc,. An unified platform will immediately make clear the communication protocols necessary for players, letting them know what information they need to relay to each other, how to distribute resources among themselves, what are the important issues they need to contest on and what are issues they need to let the other holds authority on, how to coordinate their movements between each other, etc. All in all, on the matters of platform there are plenty of setup that could make full use of 3 heads instead of letting them hindering each other by conforming to notions belonging to game plan designed for 1v1. If we consider a game in terms of pure APM, as in thinking about each side as merely APM in the work. 800 APM of a single player has increasingly less thought and complexity going into each action. Different factions have different fall off point but at some point, more APM introduces fluff because head space and attention span is hard limited. At some point you can only smash your keyboard randomly to increase even more APM. 3 heads can inject more head space and attention into each action. The obvious objection to this is, in the final determining moment, the degree of consideration going into each action is gated by the ceiling of unit maneuverability and also limited by the base economy, hence thinking and brain space don't matter (we don't need 3 heads to do something as simple as a move army into a place, functionally 1 head performs the same as 3 heads). But units micro has always been developed with the assumptions that there is only one player with not enough attention span to do complex tricks. Who would think about controlling individual zealot before? It is excessive and time wasting. But if archon mode could thrive, suddenly there emerges a need to rethink about how players use previously considered simplistic units to make use of the excessively available brain space - like the zealots, and try to make meaningful depth out of them. In individual or split into groups of 2 or 3, their formations, their waves, the ways A.I. auto-target and how to move your zealots in a way that fuck with enemies path finding or minimize your own path finding fuck-ups, etc. It could even spur a new kind of meta that will come back to inform 1v1. But even as the meta as it is right now, there is still plenty of known depth of each unit type for one brain to make more use out of. (In the first place, the complexity of APM is determined by the history of the sport that got encoded into the meta. Players play smart today compare to 10 years ago despite sharing more or less the same amount of APM between top players is not because players today are intellectual monsters, most monsters in this game are APM gods anyway - it's more hand eye coordination than brain. The smartest people in the scene aren't the best players. Yet the best players play smart even if they don't consciously think about all the consequences of their actions, why? We often say that this is because the meta has been optimized, in another language, it's because all the thinking and testing have already happened - what survived are modes of play that promise a robustness and adaptability toward all kinds of styles, trickery the scene itself could come up with, or all the contingencies a game could flow into, as well as still promising more means to counter a new meta development. In this sense the best players don't need to "think", they need to become the eyes and hands of the meta. The way Pig usually talks about this is him referring to some abstract sense of the right way, or the optimized way of playing, when criticizing some pros bad habits. This "correct way of playing" doesn't seem to exist in any player (beside Maru and Serral I guess) yet people in general keep thinking and referring to it. All of them were thinking about absolute global depth of an average action. On the other hand, this global depth of APM is always subjected to change and a mass influx of head space could spurs a development that make APM even more complex and loaded with potentiality.) All of this is to say there are loads of strong point about having many heads pitched against one, it's just that this new entire new layer of depth and complexity is beyond the consideration of most players simply because they are used to thinking in terms of 1v1. They don't think about it and seriously try to tackle with this aspect of a team game, and the depth of brilliance turns into the depth of failures, for the increasing of complexity means the variety of ways you can fall flat on your face also explodes in equal measure.
@@Kay-bs3bl I agree that's what a good archon team needs to be a good archon, but that's not the point I was making - the point was to compare an archon to a single player, and look at the inherent disadvantages of being an archon vs being a single player. But yes, the best way to play as an archon is not to try and emulate a single player as closely as possible, so trying to compensate for those weaknesses is not the most efficient way to improve. And yes, there are also advantages to playing in an archon. I didn't really go into them, since I felt it would confuse the point that just comparing raw APM is too simplified, but I don't disagree with any of your points. I especially agree with your conclusion - just putting together three pro players is going to emphasise the weaknesses of an archon, and they're not going to have the experience to take full advantage of the strengths. It's a pity there aren't really any pro archon teams on nearly this level, because I'd really like to see how well they could make use of the advantages you mention.
@@TriangleChloros Thanks! Yeah I understood what you meant, I kinda contradicted one aspect of what you wanted to say to emphasize the unexplored depth of archon mode (as well as to nerd out over theory lol). I thought archon mode was such a great idea on paper, the team behind probably bet it was game changing as well. It's really such a shame that SC2 didn't get to develop in that direction. The potential in this game is still plentiful and has been made richer over the years instead of being decreased, but SC is just not in a good spot.
@@clorkmagnus That would be a detriment unless they specify with each other "ok player 1 you handle the workers, player 2 you handle the army, player 3 you handle production." Or something like that. They can probably double up for big engagements.
![Quando Rondo - Life Goes On [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eIf3fhMXAow/mqdefault.jpg)
Most INSANE game is the one that starts at 48:20
This whole series got crazier and crazier as it went on. If you don't have time for such a long vod and just want to watch the one that made me and everyone watching on Twitch lose our minds, that's the point to start!
11:45 "So this is how winning feels like"... hah, I love that guy. 🙂
“I think we’ve lost” maybe tells more how much they appreciate Clem as it did not reflect the actual situation. Amazing game.
maybe it's just instinctual fear kicking in from seeing a bunch of MMM and tanks parking on your front door laying siege while you don't have battery overcharge and the mass to bear out the dps lol
You can tell these guys are smiling through this. Great games. Very fun.
What if Clem is actually just 3 French men in a Clem suit and this is a fair match? That's the only logical explanation he's able to do so well. /s
Great games!
This last game is one of the best viewing experiences of SC2 ive ever had. Make Archon competitions!
Those storm drops holy hell. Lore accurate HT and DT for sure. Gg clem managed to bring all his inner energy and strength out too wow. Amazing series.
wrr
I would love to see actual pro tournaments that use the archon mode
Serral on any team....
There is a 1500$ archon tournament on Harstem's channel featuring amongst others Clem, MaxPax and Maru.
@Diogenes2077 what's the name of the video
This was a great series, I hope you continue it. There is a lot of potential for Archon Mode.
I would love to see more formats with professional SC2. I know at top tier play masters have to devote everything to being the best at one thing.
But it's so refreshing and novel. It'd be amazing to have a few tournaments sprinkled in throughout the year. Archon mode, team games, etc.
If PIG or anyone is looking for ideas, I think mono-team match-ups could be really interesting with professionals. I want to see how match-up balance plays out when there's more units and different play styles complementing each other. I can't fathom how fun it would be to see the loosey-goosey players team up with their regimented counterparts.
Holy cow Clem is a monster. Even through all of that he really didn't even lose to his opponents. He only lost to being short two monitors and four hands.
7:57 how mana drops the disruptor to drag the widowmine shot is sick
Holy shit, what a sick third game.
That was one the most amazing games I have ever seen. How Clem handled this was inhuman.
Absolute banger, thank you to all 4 players who made this possible!
This is my third time watching this series along with catching part of it live. This style of content is so fun to have watched from harstem/mana pov. Truly god-tier content pig
Hi Pig,
Great cast. Looks like there were a lot of frame drops in this video, which I assume was from you tabbing out and switching discord channels (or otherwise running sc2 in background somehow).
In the future consider using the deafen and mute hotkey if there's only one vc of interest. Should prevent any frame drops from swapping in or out. It could also be the case that I'm an idiot talking here.
Great content regardless, keep it up!
I feel like in any game with an archon team they should have some sort of dropship 100% of the time once they are able to get it out. Whether it is a prism or dropship or even drop overlord. Having someone able to dedicate 100% effort to microing a drop is so powerful against a single player.
7:36: The Nova that took Clem from a 20-army-supply advantage to equal =0
8:00: Max's "I think we lost" and Harstem's incredulous "You think we lost!?" followed by crushing Clem army xD
47:05: Wow, going in with no shields was... bold. Lost like 1/3 of the army just walking into the fight.
47:25: "I don't have a build." "Don't worry about it." I mean, they're only playing Clem, afterall.
55:30: This defense was fantastic. Immaculate forecfields.
1:01:00: More clutch forecfields.
1:01:51: Vikings can crush Dark Templar by landing on them, confirmed ;p
1:02:08: Wow, again with the forcefields!
1:05:40: I can't believe Clem didn't push and win there; over double the army supply! Those Storms scared him off and saved the game =o
1:06:15: 3 brains and still let that Lib kill 6+ Probes for no reason ;p
1:01:07: Warp prism pilot is a traitor!
1:10:47: HOLY STORM-GASM, BATMAN! Honestly, they didn't kill that much more than they lost but it was sure as hell beautiful xD Prisms sharking around and Templar bullying. Fantastic.
1:13:44: Again with just letting the Lib kill tons of Probes... why?
1:14:13: Even at this point, Clem was still up in supply...
I can't believe Clem won a game against 3 high-level brains, even with a bar on Zealots/Disruptors. And he almost won 2 more as well! Incredible.
18:52 ok yeah that's top shelf commentary
Great video. The person who edited this needs a raise.
That fucking picture of Harstem on the right when audio kicks in... XD SO good.
I'm surprised there isn't more "chat strat". Every time the protoss team types, it costs them only 1/3rd their apm but if Clem responds, it costs him 100% of his :D
We don't give up bases
Epic Protoss commander
3 Pro Protoss vs. Reynor's Zerg Please!
I watched this from Harstem's POV yesterday and some of these are banger games
That last match... Those Templar was got +1 soul damage upgrade which bled through the screen and manage to hurt me as well
That figures, if you don't train coop, you get like 5/10 percent power up, It's like Max with vitamine's additional boost, no matter the apm
"We shouldn't try to point fingers because we both know who did it anyway"
Wow, That's A Game For The Record Books..
Amazing series, Clem is a monster with 400 apm in that last game, I really thought he had it in the midgame but amazing perserverence from the archon bois
This was really amazing to watch!
I love how the name is Harstem +2. It looks like he got those rpg +2 hands.
fucking love a good FPS DOUG reference.
imagine he would b able to play like that in a whole turnament! ... absolutly unstoppable!
I love how angry Harstem is all the time lol
Most brutal stormage ever to be seen in pro games at 1:10:45 !
Wait I'm so confused I missed the part where they weren't allowed to build disruptors or zealots mentioned at 41:50? Was this decided halfway through?
This is awesome. Such a great concept.
now imagine if it was 3 Terrans against 1 Protoss.. this video will be half the length.. lol
That was a ton of fun.
MaxPax has no chill lmao
Hey PiG. can you maybe make a short video explaining how to play on PTR. Im maybe a little dumb but it took me a view minutes to figure it out and right now there were like 10 players in the general chat , im not sure if there were way more. Also should we send our replays somewhere particular?
super interesting match, thanks for posting P
1:03:51 I swear the blink button doesn't work very often, it is a bug!!
Props to Clem. What a beast.
Damn what a game, I know Clem is good but damn he IS GODDAMN GOOD
Ah yes, 27 minutes glaives, after you've tried literally everything and he still won't quit.
Like a Pegasus in Harry potter. You mean hipagryph
This shit was nuts. 1 Terran pretty much scared the hell out of 3 combined protoss.
I wonder how Serral or Reynor would handle vs 3 toss.
Ez win? Serral has over 95% wr against toss. And over 90% against Terran. Only down to 60-70% against Zerg itself. The last time Serral lost was because he made a massive mistake and got caught in a time freeze with most of his army. You don’t see that every year in his ZvP game. On the other hand, Solar went 5-0 against Serral before.
@@clorkmagnus ….no. Just no, doesn’t matter how imbalanced Zerg is…couldn’t win a single game. Maybe catch a single game if they were to ban multiple units like in this game. Maxpax alone is close to 50% to serral
Maybe you are right, but Zerg power I believe. 😂
@@ryankennedy6547 "Zerg imba" you sound like a Terran player.
Anyone who doubts Clem's ability needs to watch this
I agree! Clem and Reynor are the fastest sc2 players!
I take the 4 stalkers.... and pray xD
The Harstem Mandem
i think i agree that the reaper is the least balanced unit in the game in theory. I can imagine an AI with perfect micro beating every other perfect AI using reapers, and also any human player.
I'd love to see this last fight sent as an is it imba complaint, because no way Clem sucks
Mana and harstem having fun, same as Clem…
This is the anime version of sc2 😂
has anyone tried like how many diamonds does it take to beat a pro lol. I’m guessing an infinite number of diamonds couldn’t beat a pro.
as a terran player I got second hand annoyed from that last game
800 apm vs 300apm and terran still make it competitive. game is perfectly balanced.
Eh. That's not as bad as it looks, an archon team is *always* going to be worse than a single player with the same APM because they have less ability to carry out a single unified plan. So they're forced to use that APM in less efficient ways. Even if it would be the 'right' thing to do, they can't put 500APM into inhumanly perfect stalker micro - they're 'only' able to micro those stalkers as well as MaNa. Which don't get me wrong is still *very well*, but it's not as good as you'd expect from an actual 800APM Protoss player. And the archon team needs to communicate with each other, which causes oversights and delays in reaction time (like with that adept).
@@TriangleChloros Not true, what a good archon team needs is not unified plan but unified platform. This platform can be something like you mentioned - roles in a preformed plan, but it can also be distribution of territory management if the players think in terms of poking in 3 directions with 3 small armies, or layering line of map awareness (1 macro player, 1 defensive player, 1 poke player); roles assigned by modes of attack (psychological disruption, interceptors, aggroers with a mass army to constantly pose threat,...); a platform can also emerge from shared flaws, such as the incapacity of micro managing resources distribution between 3 egoist type players, which could evolves into a super defensive style that prioritize building up infrastructure to support that egotism; or maybe the 3 egoists could let one player play at a time while the others watch as spectators until they announce themselves intervening at crucial juncture to change the flow of the match completely with the stamina the spectators reserved, their hunger to play and the 3rd party insight they gained from watching the game developed in the backseat, etc,.
An unified platform will immediately make clear the communication protocols necessary for players, letting them know what information they need to relay to each other, how to distribute resources among themselves, what are the important issues they need to contest on and what are issues they need to let the other holds authority on, how to coordinate their movements between each other, etc. All in all, on the matters of platform there are plenty of setup that could make full use of 3 heads instead of letting them hindering each other by conforming to notions belonging to game plan designed for 1v1.
If we consider a game in terms of pure APM, as in thinking about each side as merely APM in the work. 800 APM of a single player has increasingly less thought and complexity going into each action. Different factions have different fall off point but at some point, more APM introduces fluff because head space and attention span is hard limited. At some point you can only smash your keyboard randomly to increase even more APM. 3 heads can inject more head space and attention into each action.
The obvious objection to this is, in the final determining moment, the degree of consideration going into each action is gated by the ceiling of unit maneuverability and also limited by the base economy, hence thinking and brain space don't matter (we don't need 3 heads to do something as simple as a move army into a place, functionally 1 head performs the same as 3 heads). But units micro has always been developed with the assumptions that there is only one player with not enough attention span to do complex tricks. Who would think about controlling individual zealot before? It is excessive and time wasting. But if archon mode could thrive, suddenly there emerges a need to rethink about how players use previously considered simplistic units to make use of the excessively available brain space - like the zealots, and try to make meaningful depth out of them. In individual or split into groups of 2 or 3, their formations, their waves, the ways A.I. auto-target and how to move your zealots in a way that fuck with enemies path finding or minimize your own path finding fuck-ups, etc. It could even spur a new kind of meta that will come back to inform 1v1. But even as the meta as it is right now, there is still plenty of known depth of each unit type for one brain to make more use out of.
(In the first place, the complexity of APM is determined by the history of the sport that got encoded into the meta. Players play smart today compare to 10 years ago despite sharing more or less the same amount of APM between top players is not because players today are intellectual monsters, most monsters in this game are APM gods anyway - it's more hand eye coordination than brain. The smartest people in the scene aren't the best players. Yet the best players play smart even if they don't consciously think about all the consequences of their actions, why? We often say that this is because the meta has been optimized, in another language, it's because all the thinking and testing have already happened - what survived are modes of play that promise a robustness and adaptability toward all kinds of styles, trickery the scene itself could come up with, or all the contingencies a game could flow into, as well as still promising more means to counter a new meta development. In this sense the best players don't need to "think", they need to become the eyes and hands of the meta. The way Pig usually talks about this is him referring to some abstract sense of the right way, or the optimized way of playing, when criticizing some pros bad habits. This "correct way of playing" doesn't seem to exist in any player (beside Maru and Serral I guess) yet people in general keep thinking and referring to it. All of them were thinking about absolute global depth of an average action. On the other hand, this global depth of APM is always subjected to change and a mass influx of head space could spurs a development that make APM even more complex and loaded with potentiality.)
All of this is to say there are loads of strong point about having many heads pitched against one, it's just that this new entire new layer of depth and complexity is beyond the consideration of most players simply because they are used to thinking in terms of 1v1. They don't think about it and seriously try to tackle with this aspect of a team game, and the depth of brilliance turns into the depth of failures, for the increasing of complexity means the variety of ways you can fall flat on your face also explodes in equal measure.
@@Kay-bs3bl I agree that's what a good archon team needs to be a good archon, but that's not the point I was making - the point was to compare an archon to a single player, and look at the inherent disadvantages of being an archon vs being a single player. But yes, the best way to play as an archon is not to try and emulate a single player as closely as possible, so trying to compensate for those weaknesses is not the most efficient way to improve.
And yes, there are also advantages to playing in an archon. I didn't really go into them, since I felt it would confuse the point that just comparing raw APM is too simplified, but I don't disagree with any of your points.
I especially agree with your conclusion - just putting together three pro players is going to emphasise the weaknesses of an archon, and they're not going to have the experience to take full advantage of the strengths. It's a pity there aren't really any pro archon teams on nearly this level, because I'd really like to see how well they could make use of the advantages you mention.
@@TriangleChloros Thanks! Yeah I understood what you meant, I kinda contradicted one aspect of what you wanted to say to emphasize the unexplored depth of archon mode (as well as to nerd out over theory lol).
I thought archon mode was such a great idea on paper, the team behind probably bet it was game changing as well. It's really such a shame that SC2 didn't get to develop in that direction. The potential in this game is still plentiful and has been made richer over the years instead of being decreased, but SC is just not in a good spot.
Very epic
lol this legit hinders MaxPax. was waiting for him to tell the other 2 n00bs to just let him play by himself
... and then clem beat serral.
Wait, how does this work? There's only 1 protoss player, how is it 1v3?
Three people control the Protoss.
@@clorkmagnus That would be a detriment unless they specify with each other "ok player 1 you handle the workers, player 2 you handle the army, player 3 you handle production." Or something like that. They can probably double up for big engagements.
I wanna see a rematch with full vision for the solo player.