0:18 A directly equivalent problem can _also_ happen with many GNU/Linux installers such as the Ubuntu installer! however muh Arch BTW installation guide forces the user to manually choose exactly which drive they want to install the bootloader on, avoiding this issue entirely
I'm so glad for this approach. Linus has literally spent 10 years complaining about stupid windows problems on RUclips - it's easy to forget how bad it can be when you're just used to it. Frogs in boiling water kinda thing
Compared to basically anything thats wrong with linux, windows is paradise. The direct comparison showing anything else is just pandering to linux people.
@@AlexanderTrefz This isn't true at all. The only problem Linux has is the learning curve. And I admit, not being user friendly is a legitimate drawback of Linux. But the bottom line is each and every problem we've seen can be fixed by learning more about Linux. Windows problems stem from the system being broken. It doesn't matter how much know how you have, the only solution is for Microsoft to fix it. Complain all you want about installing steam uninstalling his pop OS, but it did warn him of what it was going to do, and the fix was to update the OS before installing steam. To a programmer Linux is paradise. Don't exclude yourself as part of the equation here.
Having used both. Actually, still having to use Linux for work occasionally, Windows is still leagues farther in user accessibility. Basic things are broken on many Linux distros outside the command line.
If you ran Windows Update on an overclocked 5950x with 128GB of RAM, an NVMe 4.0 RAID 0 array, on a 10GB network... it would still take its sweet time "thinking about it".
Windows update services downloads a database stub file based on the local hardware database. It's slow because the same service is used to grab files from Enterprise WSUS servers based on local policy templates. Home versions don't normally connect to those but they do now scan for distribution servers with the updates on them on the local lan and the internet.
and them "simplifying" settings, wich is just another way off removing the option all together. found myself struggeling to get audio and network devices to work properly because the the advanced options arent there anymore.
Manually remembering insane naming schemes and navigating menus that haven’t changed since 1998. The idea of making a registry edit, especially to do completely reasonable things like disabling telemetry or even controlling when updates happen. The fact that the god damn print spoiler service is still a massive security risk, the only solution to which is to disable your printing when not using it. Freaking ads in the freaking start menu. Windows has plenty of jank
I really don't know how people can "not even realize how bad some things are", considering updates, tons of bloatware, tons of spyware, crappy paranoid antivirus, crappy search, ram consumption, non-centralized settings and many other things(that i can't remember lol, it's 2:30AM)
@@Lyazhka because for most people, windows has been their only experience with computers. So they either never think about it, or they blame computers for Windows issues. I switched to Linux earlier this year, but still use Windows at work. The amount of Windows things that I’ve noticed and have been bothered by have gone way up since I had experience with something else.
What's even more fun about the Windows installer is that it doesn't tell you anything about the drives you have other than the capacity. Which is really fun when you have 3 2TB SSDs in there and one of them is the PCIE gen 4 drive that you'd like to be your boot drive and the other two are full of other things that you can't afford to lose. It's really frustrating because it kind of forces you to only have one drive in when you do the initial install then shut the pc down and add your others.
Yeah the window installer is complete trash. I dont see how windows can get away with this stuff for much longer though. Since Linux is wining over so many new users all the time
Even a nvme0n1 would be more helpful, and that's mostly useless to the average person. I can at least guess that's likely different than sda, sdb and maybe go 'oh hey, that looks sorta familiar, didn't the product page mention that string of letters?" if nothing else. Windows needs to specify more info when picking disks, for sure.
11 seconds is a perfectly reasonable amount of time for an update check-even on Linux most package managers will take 5-10 seconds to go through all its source lists, and often longer. The issue with Windows is that it can take multiple minutes and still be stuck loading, and you have no idea if it's because the process is bugged out or the internet is bad or whatever.
As a long-time Linuxer, I still have to say that the update managers are all orders of magnitudes too slow. Checking for updates should not take longer than a Google search and that has had sub-second latency for a decade.
It seems baffling that, from what I can tell, the Windows update manager has to crawl through everything that's installed on your system like thumbing through the card catalog (old school there) like an old person in no hurry, just to get a list of crap to equally slowly compare to the online repository on Microsoft's end. The Disk Cleanup is just as slow most times cleaning up gigs of files you don't need and Task Manager shows it crawling along at low single-digits MB/s doing who knows what. It usually cleans faster than that implies, but it still takes ages.
Linus refers to Microsoft as a multibillion dollar company. Me: "That doesn't sound right." Googled it. 2.56 trillion market cap. "That's more like it."
@@Henrik_Holst No. When people refer to the value of the company, they're talking about market cap, not their profit. How would that even work if a company was making a loss?
@@TheOriginalNCDV If they where making a loss I don't think that Linus would expect them to fix things like this ;) The market cap is just what your company is valued at the stock market, the profit is the real money that you use for salaries.
@@Henrik_Holst No, it's the revenue that pays salaries, not the profit. Profit (or loss) is what you have left AFTER you've paid salaries and operating costs.
Ha.... I'd love to see an actual gaming Distro of linux, that maintains support of old games longer than 5 years. THey need a rock solid distro, but truth be told... the linux community will fracture with that, because once 'one becomes good enough for the majority of users' ... we will see some truly insane behaviors crop up.
It'll only be meaningful if valve provides big money support and maintains it. It's the only problem with Linux that keeps most people away, the jank and rough edges. Despite windows problems, in a world where many people can't even describe what a file is or visualize a folder structure, its going to continue being the mainstream OS followed by MacOS. there needs to be a complete GUI /user experience for linux to get the masses behind it. I know way too many people who will never be able to use a command line for example.
I am very excited for the Gabe Gear too and I genuinely think it's the most exciting thing to come out in the last 10 years. That being said, if you think Valve is going to solve Linux for normies (aside from limited support for Steam) - I have a bridge to sell to you :)
Steam Deck will work well because will not be a fuckcluster of every borked linux distro made on weekend. IT will be a real distro, standardized, all dependencies supplied from a real commercial company.
if you would install steam deck os on PC, yes probably.....or you would need to go through all the hell to port all steam deck patches to you own distro. Its a linux, baby
And here I thought it was just me, thinking I messed up how I set things up. When I hear the experts dealing with the exact same issue I know it's not me. Windows 7 was easier for gaming and networking than windows 10 is by several miles.
Those new, incomplete, minimalistic setting menus that Win10+ got is horrible... Win7 was muuuuuch more functional and is using Linux at work. Dealing with networks in Linux is even better once you know the commands and files to tweak... maybe MS cannot afford enough developers to fix it? xD
I'm a sysadmin in two small companies, the win10 PCs run faster, get way less problems and repurposing-repairing has never been easier and less time consuming in comparison to our win7 and some win8 PCs, and they all run the same hardware.
@@skoy21 As a sysadmin you should know 8+ boots faster because of fast boot (which troubleshooting-wise is a nightmare), overall they all perform the same proven by ltt (except well dx12, cause there is no dx12) admittedly swapping hardware is easier but i have used sysprep and it works just fine that's a compromise im still willing to make considering the sheer amount of bloat bundled in 10
@@skoy21 I didn't say there were no advantages, just that gaming and networking suck on windows 10 compared to 7. I skipped 8 because 8 sucked, And from. the looks so far windows 11 sucks too.
@@pheelix- No need to get snarky. I'm fairly certain both my pc and internet are much faster than most. I just haven't updated in ages because it never asks me to.
It makes sense. Azure is where most of their growth is going to come from going forward. Office 365, cloud gaming, selling hosted solutions to third-parties etc. I think going forward with more things moving to the cloud then it will become less important which operating system you are running as more heavy compute tasks move to servers.
As a Linux user I simply hate the Windows install process that gives away your privacy by default, having to use Edge/Explorer to install Firefox, the update process (for Windows and apps), or really just not having a tiling window manager. Being stuck with a desktop environment I'm not familiar with makes me go nuts. At least Windows users have KDE as an option.
@@VincentGonzalezVeg Windows is like a saxophone that chooses what notes to play for you. Oh you think you know what song you want to play on the sax? No, Microsoft knows best. Get your grubby hands off
Long time linux user (nearly daily since 2005). I've long felt like after getting linux set up initially, regardless of distro, but specifically .deb based distros, they are MUCH less maintenance, and easier to keep up to date than windows. I've had an desktop that has been upgraded in-place since ubuntu 10.04 through 21.10, and it still works great, across multiple motherboards and cpus. I've never had that kind of luck on windows, and that machine is a dual boot, so I have a track record to compare with here. A few times windows update has broken windows and grub, and I've had to fix both. I've had far more windows problems than linux ones over the years, and none of the linux problems on this computer required a linux reinstall, and I've had to install a new version of windows when an upgrade didn't work, or reinstalled windows at least 5 times since 2010. For more context: I use linux for work/personal stuff, and windows is ONLY for gaming. It does NOTHING else, and still breaks more.
Preach! The install of Debian Testing I am running on now is roughly 10 years old, continuously updated, and just works flawlessly. I haven't had a Windows box in the house for at least that long, and I don't miss it. I manage Windows servers and Azure assets on the day job and have enough of that wackiness there.
Dual booting for many new Linux users is almost essential, keeping Windows as a 'just in case' backup. However, it always seems that because of this, Windows will break a dual boot setup at any opportunity it can find. This has been my experience also.
That issue with the boot loader on secondary drive? Holy shit I was there and it caused a shitton of anxiety when I initially thought I busted my PC and I didn't know how. I don't even remember how I recovered but black magic sounds about right
The easiest way to do it is just do a "repair install" of windows. It leaves everything in place on your HDD and just reinstalls windows and gets the HDD properly configured. I'm sure there's some "black magic" way to do it too, but a windows installer thumb-drive and about 20 minutes of waiting for the repair is the best way to get it done. He's also greatly exaggerating how common this is. I've installed windows with multiple drives dozens of times (probably well over a hundred), and this has only happened once (and it was caused by my cables being plugged in in the "wrong" places, so the system was treating a second drive as the "master.") Nowadays, with modern hardware, it's practically impossible to reproduce.
@@Hickeroar riiiight you're bringing back memories talking about it lmao. I didn't have a thumb drive and was trying to do it all without one! Would've been an easy enough task of it weren't for the secondary drive issue.
Yep, been there, done that. Afterwards I ALWAYS disconnect all secondary drives when installing Windows. Yeah, "stupid dance routine" is the best description of this process I guess.
I'd love to know so much how the internal process of Windows update work. Because as you said - it's just baffling. This should be a simple request where my PC sends "here are the updates I have" and server responds "Ok, here are the updates you don't have". I understand that Windows is on billions of PCs so you need multiple servers/datacenters and releasing a patch isn't a simple process. But still how can it take so long?! Even in complicated architecture like this. I'm just out of ideas. Or is it like decompilling some .dlls to figure out their versions or what?
I think the problem is it's just not as simple in windows as saying "Oh, you have version 23? Here's version 24." I'd guess it's more like "Oh, you have version 23 of this but you have this specific program installed and your hardware combined with that program will cause version 27 to crash but we do have version 26 so I guess you can have that for now. But before they can even get to that point your computer has to scan everything it has that can be updated or can influence an update decision and then send all that data to the update server.
That's... exactly what it does. People are just hysterical that Microsoft has the audacity to _make_ them install critical updates. Don't listen to them.
@@GamePlague That kinda makes sense, but that's also why Microsoft should've made Windows more modular instead of doubling down on its monolithic architecture. Linux is modular in many ways - This is why updates on rolling release distributions typically don't break a lot, if anything at all
@@GamePlague But that's what every linux package manager does too, and they're not nearly as slow (unless you're running gentoo and compiling everything from source anyway, but then you only have yourself to blame :P).
Last time I used Windows, seemed like the checking for updates was a few minutes, but the actual installation was a few hours. I always hated how it could never give you a straight answer what phase of the install it was on other than vague downloading 75% and being hung on that forever, or installing 10% and hung on that forever. Linux, depending on which distro, but usually very much the same, a few moments on pulling the update list, and 15 minutes tops installing updates on a fresh Linux machine, considerably less if you have really fast internet/repo connection and an NVMe drive. Also, you can usually see exactly which phase of update you are on, depending on update method, but using terminal you know exactly what its doing at that moment.
1:13 I've literally watched windows update sit on a 99% download of something for literal days. And I've also seen windows update completely refuse to download major updates before windows defender updates or the malicious removal program update (which are usually the ones that get stuck)
Update: the laptop has been at 100% downloaded on Windows 11 since Thursday, and won't progress because malicious software removal is stuck at a 97% download
Love my current Windows update problem where it's installing the same update over and over. It claims it's finished each time, but it never actually does.
Happened to me twice. And I learned to install only ONE drive when I have to set up Windows. I'll install other drives after the fact. The Win installer Loves to put bootloader on random drives. And it's something that predates win xp.
I remember building my dads PC in 2010, and I brought along all the HDD from the old pc as archive drives... damn should I not have put those in untill after installing windows. cause fuck that bootloader just decided to yeet itself to lands unknown.
This is an important subject to touch upon, especially with the negative aspects of Linux addressed in the first part. Sure, people were talking about that "Yes, do as I say" in part one but Windows has a pretty similar thing with its update center. It is pretty much an unwritten rule that Windows updates need to be delayed for a while after all.
Windows for sure has a lot of problems (looking at you settings), but Windows update get's this crazy bad rep when it's primary competition MacOS's updates are far worse. I have never had a Windows update do anything worse than break a single application. I have had MacOS updates brick my entire laptop, delete my files, break all of my programs, make it so that I can't even type in a password on the login screen without a restart every time (how is this even possible). So if we are going to rag on Windows update, can we at least also bring up how bad MacOS updates are? Honestly the only good update experience I have is Android updates now that they fork the OS and install in the background to just boot into the new instance on restart.
I have had android (one of sonys distros) brick my phone on an update even though it was fully charged and right to go, it is not 100% safe but probably still a lot better than most. Also could you imagine bloated Windows going immutable.
The system backup configuration screen, in Windows 11, is buried behind a small link under "File History", and when you bring up the screen the title is "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)". How hard would it be to just change that string to just be "Backup and Restore" so it's not confusing to users?
That's all Windows 7 behind Windows 10,which was just bolted on to the code of 7 Just for the touch screen TEC that Microsoft felt left out of! With those big blocky UI for fingers only, basically forced on a desk top PC!? If you didn't have a touch screen you had to still use it! After 10 years I took the old HDD drive out with Windows 10 on it and left it in a draw. And installed pop! OS on SSD. But certain software will have nothing to do with Linux. But that's a good thing because it's less bloat,what you see is that Linux trims the fat that you were used to on Windows, simply less is more.😁👍
Yes, asking a new user to install Windows on a bare metal machine would be very appropriate as a counterpoint to the current Linux challenge. And just to make things interesting have them do it on a machine from one of the OEMs like Dell or HP or fill in the blank. Installation media - oh snap! they don't provide that. The license key is in the BIOS, so if you want to do a fresh install because you need to wipe the machine or your hard drive crashed or whatever, now you have to go through the dance of where do I find the install media? Tell me that the average user will know how to go on to the Microsoft website download the install media make a bootable USB stick... Seriously?
I have a Chromebook and the updates are seamless and when the computer restarts and applies the update it doesn't take any more time then a normal restart, however chromeOS does have its own serious issues none the less
that's why you only have 1 HDD/SDD plugin when installed win that problem has been there forever. on linux I always use the terminal "sudo apt update" or "sudo apt update && upgrade".
And the longer you use Linux, the more an increasing number of typically overlooked problems with Windows becore both obvious and increasingly frustrating for you. It's fitting that it's called Windows, as that's what I want to throw a computer through after 10 minutes in that horrendous OS these days.
Windows Update alone is a HUGE reason why I'm REALLY trying to learn the ins and outs of Linux as best as I can, and I also happen to be attending Tech school so I've been making HUGE progress with it. Right now I'm rockin' Linux Lite and I LOVE it, even if I can't run some of my games, I can still play my modded Minecraft, and have been able to get my old Unreal Tournament 2004 running on Wine, as well as finding all the alternate programs to replace what I use on Windows.
Am I missing something? When you click check for updates what I assume happens is that windows sends a request to their cloud server, the server processes the request and then sends back a response. Isn't 11 seconds like a perfectly reasonable time window for that to happen?
Let's just talk about how unacceptable it is for Windows to look like an inconsistent mess. Most Linux distros more consistent and polished despite being free and being maintained by smaller devs.
I wouldn't call it being more consistent to have gtk programs running on Plasma or qt software in gtk environments but sure, inconsistency sucks on either OS.
I'd rather take a slightly less consistent UX on an OS that has excellent backward-compatibility and a shitload of resources on every corner vs using some shite that you can't find a working tutorial for just a couple of months down the line (or even none at all!) because those "smaller devs" each have their own way of thinking and doing things. It's not even a competition.
@@MegaManNeo Why would you consider running programs written in a different toolkit than the DE an "inconsistency"? You can run GTK or Qt programs even on Windows. It's not a problem. What he's saying is that Windows, being developed by a single company, has so many UI inconsistencies within itself.
@@ClifffSVK Because it doesn't look consistent either way. Frankly enough, I have more of an issue with that these days that I know what a toolkit is than say 20 years ago when say Windows XP and KDE 3 were hot garbage.
@@TheUltimateBlooper Backwards compatibility? Literally all that changes between each Windows is a fresh coat of paint, some new features, and a Settings layout redesign. You wouldn't say that your car tires are "backwards compatible" with older tires-- you'd say that despite the looks, it's all pretty unchanged.
Something I've noticed more recently is just how many resources are taken up when I first open the settings app too. It does a fine job when being unused, it doesn't take up much at all when not in use, but the second I open it, my laptop will struggle for a bit before loading the settings app again.
Which is so weird, isn't it? I have a Linux extension on my computer called Vitality that tells me my resource usage in the tray (CPU Temp, usage %, RAM used, etc). Opening up Steam to install games is 1% CPU and 29% RAM, but on Windows, it can be 10% and 40%. Where does it all go?? What's happening when it's the same program, just different OS'??
One thing that annoys me a lot is that my computer randomly wakes up in the middle of the night. I've set the automatic updates to happen during the day, because you can't turn them off. So I don't know what it's doing, it just shows the login screen, but no other activity. There is nothing in the notifications either.
It happened to my brother many times. I've read somewhere that is is related to updates, that it downloads them at the time range you specify, but sets a planned boot at nighttime to "finish" updating and staying on. After we turned of all Windows updates that behavior stopped.
Me: Windows, is there a new update? Windows: Always "Is there a new update" with you, never "how is the new update" with you. Come on man. Just give these updates some love. We're breaking our ass for you to fix these miniscule bugs and you're like "gimme gimme!" You want an update? Here's the new update. Me: Jeez, okay.
I don't know if I did something right... but I've never had Windows restart my PC automatically due to an update. Am I a genius?... I really can't say, but yes.
@@mapache-ehcapam You probably never noticed or have updates off because of reasons (company policies set by the IT department, pirated OS, etc). I've had that happen to me on multiple occasions and I've lost work (overnight renderings) due to these stupid restarts. First thing I do on a new Windows install - turn off auto updates. No problems after that.
@@TheUltimateBlooper Nope, I notice this kind of stuff I'm not an idiot, I have a legit personal copy of W10. Never restarted on me unless I directly do it myself.
Talking about win updates, my updates page is probably bugged out right now. The update is stuck on downloading at 0% for like days now. I think I have to force stop it and restart it🤣
I remember when I recently built my new computer (my first time ever building one myself), I had two SSD drives installed, one PCIE 4.0 and the other a 2.5' SATA. The Windows installer doesn't tell you anything about the drives except for their size, so I had to guess which one since both were 1TB. I ended up putting it on the wrong drive and had to remove the 2.5' SSD entirely to reinstall windows on the other drive, then wipe the other one to remove the windows boot on it. What a fun experience.
What I hate about windows is that the first solution in most forums (especially their support forums) is just "get used to it". You have to dig and learn way more to fix something in windows than in linux. The only serious issue I got in linux was that an app wasn't working because the updates required were still in beta for my distro, I just updated the distro and everything works perfectly IN BETA. I'd like to see windows pull a stable beta.
Funny how he said that with the bootloader on another drive ... for like 5 years or so i was running an 10 year old SSD because it had my bootloader. Sole reason why that ssd was still in my system. Had a fun time fixing that a few months ago
That bootloader on the wrong drive happened when I cloned my old nvme drive to my new one this summer. it took me a week of many hours per day to figure it out. I've never been so frustrated with a computer problem in my life.
Personally I’d like to say that I’ve had so many issues with the windows installer. I’ve had the issue where windows puts the boot loader on the wrong drive, it took me forever to figure out that was the problem and I had to just disconnect all other drives. I’ve also had issues where my windows installer usb just completely stops working after I use it 1 time, and I have to reformat it and download windows all over again to use it again. It sucks
I had the issue with the broken installer USB as well. Installed Windows once, screwed something and wanted to do a fresh install. Put in the same USB, which was reported to be not bootable. Now I'm using a tool named Ventoy to boot the iso file and never had that issue again. I assume that during the install, it wrote something to the USB. With Ventoy, the iso is read-only.
@@gragogflying-anvil3605 It just doesnt make any sense to me why microsoft is so bad at some of this stuff. I see no reason why any of this should be a problem. Dont even get me started on the microsoft store. My brothers computer basically is fucked up and a lot of windows services dont even work, he cant update his pc and that also means the microsoft store doesnt work
Theres an unfixed bug with windows 10 where the task bar has like a 20% chance of not going away in full screen until you click the start button. It's annoying.
I had that exact same Windows installer issue the other day. I spent DAYS trying to figure it out. Windows sometimes even refused to install because it thought the small FAT32 boot partition on my Linux drive was the Windows system partition.
With 9 operating systems multi-booting from three disks, if I run Windows setup, it would be like playing Russian roulette with a clip pistol. The trick is to start setup on a VM, then clone the partition after the second restart, set the boot loader and registry, and it will happily boot the out of box experience.
oh man that bootloder issue has been around since Windows 7, I remember encountering it years ago and ended up having to format and reinstall because I wiped the second drive I removed so there was no hope of fixing it.
Regarding the "you need Windows Game bar to invite friends". Some Steam games also require the Steam Overlay so that you can invite friends to your games. Otherwise I would get no "Invite list".
Microsoft pushing their Microsoft-Account, Edge, etc. regardless of my chosen preferences is what turned me to Linux part-time. Therefore, a dual-booting hint from a part-timer: 1. Look at a tutorial online 2. Do that 3. Literally never do it again, because once it is set up, it should work forever If something unexpectedly fails after 2 weeks: Back to 1.
1:13 "Windows update is so bad!" YES absolutely. In fact my windows update completely bugged out. I'm still on version 1909 and can not do the update. It says to me that I'm missing important security and quality fixes but when I search for updates it doesn't find anything. Oh and I there is a small window from micorosoft family features which says that I should log in every few minutes and even if I log in IT JUST COMES BACK AND MINIMIZES MY FRKING GAME
I have worked for years in IT. Windows is great in many way, I have been very lucky that I have not had any major software issues and mainly hardware issues. OpenVPN sucks, the 2 IT companies both supported fortinet and openVPN, I would have so many issues with ovpn, I did with fortinet as well, but significantly less. If someone was new to computers and asked me what OS I would recommend I would offer some linux options, however, I would still offer windows as some things are just easier for the end user. I can't wait for the day that linux gets more support and is heavily supported by game and software devs. For now, I will keep working on my first attempt to daily drive linux. It's been hard but I have a unique situation aka very budget tight gaming/streaming pc that did its job well, but is underpowered for Web development (full stack). So I decided to build my own artix linux os and set up,my own desktop enviroment to keep it light on resources. My biggest issue so far has been my 2060 super, with the recent news I hope that changes soon.
If you install Windows first, GRUB will recognize it by default on most distributions. If it doesn't, it's just a matter of setting GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=false in /etc/default/grub (or the equivalent file on your distribution). The other way around might is more tricky.
I've had so many times where Windows installed the boot related stuff to the first drive instead of the second drive and messed up my Linux install. I've learned to just remove the drive or disable the port in the BIOS until I'm done
Now I know what happened when I gave windows a chance and try dual-booting for valorant. I knew windows just likes to ruin itself, but damn I don't fucking know why was there a fucking windows bootloader overriding my grub ON A DIFFERENT DRIVE!!!
The workaround for being able to configure your game folders or even remove them is a PITA on w10 - have to do an administrator rights dance to access the folder itself then set them for the folders you want to remove or edit.
Am I the only person that I don't have any issues with Windows updates? I don't recall a single time that I have been inconvenienced by it. But how long it takes to know if you need updates or not does need to be resolved
Windows Update takes a lot of time because Windows updates aren't app packages or firmware updates. They are patches in an 'update format'. Windows has to check every update package and approve them in order to pull the newer patches and its dependencies. That's why it takes so long. This was worse in older versions since Windows pre-10 were built only once per service pack. They were not rebuilt again so every change they do stayed as an update package, which broke a lot of things. I remember Windows 7 updates taking actual hours to even start listing the updates to choose. (Windows 10 gets rebuilt every 6 months. Windows 11 gets rebuilt every year.)
So they choose a stupid way to distribute their updates but this still doesn't sound like a reason for the time it takes. Even with a dumb scheme like this you can still get a list of which patches that you have applied, then download a list of the available patches and do a quick diff of those. On top of that they also only support a handful of applications in that update so the database shouldn't be that large either.
Is there an OS where the Check for Updates is instantaneous? Windows Updates definitely takes longer than it should, but I've used several Debian/Ubuntu and derivatives, and running apt update has never been instant for me. It's certainly faster than Windows Update, but it's also generally on the order of seconds to hit all of the package repos and compile an update list, certainly a whole lot more than milliseconds.
The fear of the command line is tarded. The reason Windows users hate the command line, is simply because the Windows command line was always USELESS and never ever worth even bothering to use. A real command line shell in an OS like Linux or MacOS is easy to use and extremely worth using.
I had the issue where windows installed the bootloader to another drive. Managed to reinstall windows to the drive I wanted it on, and the other drive doesnt boot anymore
WSL is an amazing piece of technology, as is Office 365 and Azure. I feel like all the really capable people at Microsoft have been gravitating to working on exciting stuff like that and thus there is nobody to fix the boring stuff like the settings or Windows Update.
The point where they switched away from the Windows 7 style settings (like the Network and Sharing Center) instead of just improving them was where I was done with Windows. I have been using Debian on servers since 2014, was brought into desktop Debian by my apprenticeship in software development (where installing closed-source operating systems on company hardware was not allowed unless explicitly permitted) and have been on the same Arch installation since 2018 - never looked back. If there is something that doesn't work on Linux, just use virt-manager to create a VM. Maybe pass through a GPU if you need it. Takes a bit of work but once you know how to do it and wrote your own notes and scripts for it, everything becomes easy.
...and yet, in some cases, software made by a group of academically-unqualified volunteers hacking things together in their free time on ten year old mid-range machines beats a competitive Microsoft product in key areas
wonky shit with fullscreen alt tab and task manager can be frustrating as hell. I have had many times where I have had to restart just because a game froze and even though I could see the rest of my pc working, alt tab wouldn't work and task manager would pop up but as soon as I click on it the game takes over fullscreen again, still frozen.
For the windows bootloader issue, I was copying over my windows install to a new SSD via macrium reflect and somehow that created two seperate bootloaders in bios that were on the same drive. So I was sitting there confused AF because of the BSOD. Tried the command line fix, it didn't detect my bootloaders at all. Ended up randomly clicking around in bios desperately and found the issue. The fact that this could happen with just a simple copy-paste to new drive is beyond me.
about forza: specifically valve got it working and made it available for anyone using steam by just picking "Proton Experimental" in the proton version
One of the problems with Windows - Modern Standby and bugs with all the software and firmware related to it. But to be honest it never worked on Linux at all.
2:00 Maybe it needs to search within 100's of files for some data. When you request the status of installed patches, check if it is using disk, memory, CPU, ...
I'm using GNU+Linux for 6 years now and I have to say sometimes it really sucks when things don't work. But that's the price I'm ready to pay for a software I truly own. Unlike windows where I pay for a it and it basically is Microsoft's spyware.
What's wrong with 11 seconds? Taking into account that it is looking for stuff in several places at once, it seems pretty fast compared to my 8s on Mint for a manual refresh. For Luke's experience, it just checks for updates in the background, which Windows also does. For some reason there is no update notification on Windows 11 in the tray anymore though, as I just found out. Edit: Win11 took 6s for a manual check
Speaking of windows update, forget about using your computer if you haven't turned it on in a month or two. The amount of time your computer will run like absolute crap while windows does TONS of stuff in the background is WAY too long. I can not use my spare Linux Laptop for Months at a time, and when I log in to Manjaro, it's fine. Whenever I log into windows on that laptop after several months, it takes several hours for the CPU usage to drop from windows update, anti-malware, etc.
what dinosaur are you using? Any computer made in the last 10 years should not suffer from this problem as long as it has an SSD. If you don't have an SSD, then that is a long overdue upgrade for your system.
@@yotoprules9361 The laptop has an i5-5300u with a Samsung 870. Same thing on my main gaming laptop with an i7-7700hq and an NVME ssd installed. It doesn't take an hour on the i7, but it takes 20-30 minutes when I don't use it for 2-3 months. I've recently done an install on an older computer with an i5-3500k + dramless SSD, and the install + all windows updates took 10+ hours to complete, including all of the reboots. Have you personally not used a computer for several months at a time on windows 10? Using the computer daily or weekly, you would never see the issue.
@@Undeaddeaths I've seen the issue happen on 15 year old cpus with slow hdds. Other than that, nope. I haven't used a few pcs in a few months that I've refurbished for a charity and never any problem with any system that has an ssd and a relatively decent cpu. Cpu idles after a few minutes maybe.
@@Undeaddeaths also I don't believe that 3500k system. I have an old core 2 duo 2.4ghz laptop, 4 gigs of ram, dramless 120gig ssd, and it takes maybe 20 minutes to get to the desktop after pressing install? Updates take maybe 30-60 minutes but that's due to the slow cpu mostly. Your cpu is significantly faster.
When ever I update my computer it blue screens and says update failed and it gets rid of it. Then when I fully shutdown my computer again it has to install blue screen and reset each time.
Minecraft for Windows 10 is a nightmare. I had to port over from Java which I've been using for 10+ years because my friend didn't have it purchased, he had gamepass. It wouldn't install for whatever reason, and I had to go to apex servers because the Minecraft native "servers" don't stay up while you're offline. At least I got my money back when we gave up.
SO SO SO many times i have ran into the second drive boot loader issue. To this day this is why when i install windows i disconnect EVERY drive but the one im installing on
@@kneesnap1041 Exactly. Frankly enough, I used to watch a video of one of the Linux orientated channels on RUclips earlier today in which it was mentioned that the devs behind Pop_OS! actually listened to Linus' and Luke's critic after WAN Show and the first publicly available episode of the challenge and tweaked apt so you actually can not remove Xorg and the DE anymore unless you do some more steps. I think that is the first of many steps which shows just how much we need LTT to make that challenge.
The bug from the beginning of the video, i had to spend 8 hours installing and uninstalling windows to figure out why tf and what is actually happening
0:30 I literally just discovered this problem when seeing if I could turn on TPM. How does that even happen? I couldn't upgrade to Windows 11 on my PC even if I wanted to. Even though every part I have is supported. I don't know how the hell I'm supposed to fix it without a full wipe. Which I can't do without a drive to backup everything.
Multiplayer gaming is starting to remind me of the good old days when you had to start the MP game through setup.exe and literally launch the game in different mode with all done in the setup, unable to do anything once you were ingame.... Where did all the UI for Multiplayer lobby and setting got away? I hate to "invite friends" through external apps or even full game lobbies done in browsers (thing BF3 got that... never ever started the game after it)
1:45 i feel like it's because YOUR configuration is unique and it has hundreds of firmware and drivers and little things that possibly need updates and it has to check compatibility with everything. It's not just like downloading a new version of ios
"Learning grub" isn't really a thing. Sometimes there's dumb stuff where installing windows hides your ability to boot into Linux, or installing Linux messes up your windows boot partition, but other than that you really shouldn't have to mess with grub other than it popping up with a menu to choose your OS whenever you boot. (It is possible to change your default, hide boot options, customize how long the options show up, etc, but you don't NEED to do any of that.)
Man, xbox game bar hasn't worked for me for months and I used it to record videos. Damn thing just stops responding over time and win+g does nothing. I have to go to task manager and end task for it to work again.
Windows update today: I came home to my always on PC. Nothing responded. The clock was correct. I pressed reset, and there was some update... I've turned them off, but I guess if it can't update just freeze the HIDs.
0:20 Can confirm. My install is on drive C, and the bootloader is separated and somehow ended up on a second ssd, drive D. Win won't boot without the second ssd hooked up - love it.
The bootloader on the secondary drive is exactly why I have to disable all other drives for the install on a client PC. Random luck of the draw is so true.
I dual boot linux and windows and that bug where the bootloader is on the secondary drive, yeah that happens every single time. I've reinstalled windows about 11 times in the past 2 years because this happens every time and then I install linux on my second drive and windows goes bye bye.
Linus played DnD once and now uses "8 sided die" when describing possible outcomes.
"D20"
@@CatsMeow_ D20 tastes sweet just like 1% sugar water.
0:18 A directly equivalent problem can _also_ happen with many GNU/Linux installers such as the Ubuntu installer! however
muh Arch BTW installation guide forces the user to manually choose exactly which drive they want to install the bootloader on, avoiding this issue entirely
@@tacokoneko It's pretty common to have that kind of option tbh. I think it is down to installing with command line, or with Calamares.
Killer Bunnies player with 20 sided die: peasants
I'm so glad for this approach. Linus has literally spent 10 years complaining about stupid windows problems on RUclips - it's easy to forget how bad it can be when you're just used to it. Frogs in boiling water kinda thing
And Linux is more frog in boiling vodka
Compared to basically anything thats wrong with linux, windows is paradise. The direct comparison showing anything else is just pandering to linux people.
linux is a stupidly bad as an desktop, while heaven as a server
@@AlexanderTrefz This isn't true at all. The only problem Linux has is the learning curve. And I admit, not being user friendly is a legitimate drawback of Linux. But the bottom line is each and every problem we've seen can be fixed by learning more about Linux. Windows problems stem from the system being broken. It doesn't matter how much know how you have, the only solution is for Microsoft to fix it.
Complain all you want about installing steam uninstalling his pop OS, but it did warn him of what it was going to do, and the fix was to update the OS before installing steam. To a programmer Linux is paradise. Don't exclude yourself as part of the equation here.
Having used both. Actually, still having to use Linux for work occasionally, Windows is still leagues farther in user accessibility. Basic things are broken on many Linux distros outside the command line.
If you ran Windows Update on an overclocked 5950x with 128GB of RAM, an NVMe 4.0 RAID 0 array, on a 10GB network... it would still take its sweet time "thinking about it".
This is me, minus the RAID 0 and the 10GB. Can confirm it takes a long time.
Lol even my i5 10600k would be considered overkill for something like windows update check and still takes more then 2 minutes
Maybe it's like a deposit ATM. Where it's intentionally slowed down because people don't trust it if it's fast.
Windows update services downloads a database stub file based on the local hardware database. It's slow because the same service is used to grab files from Enterprise WSUS servers based on local policy templates. Home versions don't normally connect to those but they do now scan for distribution servers with the updates on them on the local lan and the internet.
We are so used to windows that we don't even realize how bad some things are. Updates, settings, Microsoft authentication, etc.
and them "simplifying" settings, wich is just another way off removing the option all together. found myself struggeling to get audio and network devices to work properly because the the advanced options arent there anymore.
I fixed that boot bug on my uncles PC, it was p simple but you need to know DOS tools. I don't think most windows users do.
Manually remembering insane naming schemes and navigating menus that haven’t changed since 1998. The idea of making a registry edit, especially to do completely reasonable things like disabling telemetry or even controlling when updates happen. The fact that the god damn print spoiler service is still a massive security risk, the only solution to which is to disable your printing when not using it. Freaking ads in the freaking start menu. Windows has plenty of jank
I really don't know how people can "not even realize how bad some things are", considering updates, tons of bloatware, tons of spyware, crappy paranoid antivirus, crappy search, ram consumption, non-centralized settings and many other things(that i can't remember lol, it's 2:30AM)
@@Lyazhka because for most people, windows has been their only experience with computers. So they either never think about it, or they blame computers for Windows issues. I switched to Linux earlier this year, but still use Windows at work. The amount of Windows things that I’ve noticed and have been bothered by have gone way up since I had experience with something else.
What's even more fun about the Windows installer is that it doesn't tell you anything about the drives you have other than the capacity. Which is really fun when you have 3 2TB SSDs in there and one of them is the PCIE gen 4 drive that you'd like to be your boot drive and the other two are full of other things that you can't afford to lose. It's really frustrating because it kind of forces you to only have one drive in when you do the initial install then shut the pc down and add your others.
Yep, had to remove other drives, shutdown, then put them back in.
on task manager, or device manager, it gives you the model. ive never had your issue
Yeah the window installer is complete trash. I dont see how windows can get away with this stuff for much longer though. Since Linux is wining over so many new users all the time
@@bradhaines3142 OP is specifically talking about installation.
Even a nvme0n1 would be more helpful, and that's mostly useless to the average person. I can at least guess that's likely different than sda, sdb and maybe go 'oh hey, that looks sorta familiar, didn't the product page mention that string of letters?" if nothing else. Windows needs to specify more info when picking disks, for sure.
11 seconds is a perfectly reasonable amount of time for an update check-even on Linux most package managers will take 5-10 seconds to go through all its source lists, and often longer. The issue with Windows is that it can take multiple minutes and still be stuck loading, and you have no idea if it's because the process is bugged out or the internet is bad or whatever.
Well in the defence of the linux package manager they handle hundreds of thousands of applications while the Windows one handles what 5 or 10 :-)
As a long-time Linuxer, I still have to say that the update managers are all orders of magnitudes too slow. Checking for updates should not take longer than a Google search and that has had sub-second latency for a decade.
But the Windows update should be centralised, like you should only need to query a single source for everything
@@thedofflin they can't do that because windows don't use one repository to host and download all the software.
It seems baffling that, from what I can tell, the Windows update manager has to crawl through everything that's installed on your system like thumbing through the card catalog (old school there) like an old person in no hurry, just to get a list of crap to equally slowly compare to the online repository on Microsoft's end. The Disk Cleanup is just as slow most times cleaning up gigs of files you don't need and Task Manager shows it crawling along at low single-digits MB/s doing who knows what. It usually cleans faster than that implies, but it still takes ages.
Linus refers to Microsoft as a multibillion dollar company.
Me: "That doesn't sound right." Googled it. 2.56 trillion market cap. "That's more like it."
But that is their marketcap, he was talking about their profit. You can't hire devs to do stuff with a marketcap but you can with your profit.
@@Henrik_Holst No. When people refer to the value of the company, they're talking about market cap, not their profit. How would that even work if a company was making a loss?
@@TheOriginalNCDV If they where making a loss I don't think that Linus would expect them to fix things like this ;)
The market cap is just what your company is valued at the stock market, the profit is the real money that you use for salaries.
@@Henrik_Holst No, it's the revenue that pays salaries, not the profit. Profit (or loss) is what you have left AFTER you've paid salaries and operating costs.
2.56 trillion technically is multiples of billions
For as much money and central organization there is, windows is crappy with MANY things. I can't wait for Valve to come out with a good solid distro.
Steam OS 3.0 gets released in February of next year and is based on Ass Linux.
If you genuinely expect Valve to solve linux for normies (other than limited support for Steam) - I have a bridge to sell to you... 🤣
I think to be fair Windows has the baggage of backwards compatibility. That being said Windows has a history of messing with UI a lot.
Ha....
I'd love to see an actual gaming Distro of linux, that maintains support of old games longer than 5 years.
THey need a rock solid distro, but truth be told... the linux community will fracture with that, because once 'one becomes good enough for the majority of users' ... we will see some truly insane behaviors crop up.
It'll only be meaningful if valve provides big money support and maintains it. It's the only problem with Linux that keeps most people away, the jank and rough edges. Despite windows problems, in a world where many people can't even describe what a file is or visualize a folder structure, its going to continue being the mainstream OS followed by MacOS. there needs to be a complete GUI /user experience for linux to get the masses behind it. I know way too many people who will never be able to use a command line for example.
Funnily, this gets me more excited for the Steam Deck, or at least the support Linux will be getting from it.
I am very excited for the Gabe Gear too and I genuinely think it's the most exciting thing to come out in the last 10 years. That being said, if you think Valve is going to solve Linux for normies (aside from limited support for Steam) - I have a bridge to sell to you :)
yeah, Steam OS might end up beeing THE best distro for normies
Steam Deck will work well because will not be a fuckcluster of every borked linux distro made on weekend. IT will be a real distro, standardized, all dependencies supplied from a real commercial company.
if you would install steam deck os on PC, yes probably.....or you would need to go through all the hell to port all steam deck patches to you own distro. Its a linux, baby
@Watcher yes
And here I thought it was just me, thinking I messed up how I set things up. When I hear the experts dealing with the exact same issue I know it's not me. Windows 7 was easier for gaming and networking than windows 10 is by several miles.
Im approving of your message on my Win 7 machine.
Those new, incomplete, minimalistic setting menus that Win10+ got is horrible... Win7 was muuuuuch more functional and is using Linux at work. Dealing with networks in Linux is even better once you know the commands and files to tweak... maybe MS cannot afford enough developers to fix it? xD
I'm a sysadmin in two small companies, the win10 PCs run faster, get way less problems and repurposing-repairing has never been easier and less time consuming in comparison to our win7 and some win8 PCs, and they all run the same hardware.
@@skoy21 As a sysadmin you should know 8+ boots faster because of fast boot (which troubleshooting-wise is a nightmare), overall they all perform the same proven by ltt (except well dx12, cause there is no dx12) admittedly swapping hardware is easier but i have used sysprep and it works just fine that's a compromise im still willing to make considering the sheer amount of bloat bundled in 10
@@skoy21 I didn't say there were no advantages, just that gaming and networking suck on windows 10 compared to 7. I skipped 8 because 8 sucked, And from. the looks so far windows 11 sucks too.
11 seconds?! It took 37 seconds for me and that's one of the fastest times. Windows takes ages to check if there are any updates.
MS doesn't believe in indexing their tables..
8 seconds here, Are you still using dial-up and a hdd on a non-debloated OS?
@@pheelix- Still. Compared to most API calls on the internet which are under 200ms - Microsoft's API sucks.
@@pheelix- No need to get snarky. I'm fairly certain both my pc and internet are much faster than most. I just haven't updated in ages because it never asks me to.
I just checked for updates, and it took 3 seconds.
my general thinking of why Windows is broken these days is they're putting more engineers at Azure development than doing Windows development
It makes sense. Azure is where most of their growth is going to come from going forward. Office 365, cloud gaming, selling hosted solutions to third-parties etc. I think going forward with more things moving to the cloud then it will become less important which operating system you are running as more heavy compute tasks move to servers.
I'm genuinely expecting Windows to become a DE again at some point in the future, and get ported to Linux and MacOS.
As a Linux user I simply hate the Windows install process that gives away your privacy by default, having to use Edge/Explorer to install Firefox, the update process (for Windows and apps), or really just not having a tiling window manager. Being stuck with a desktop environment I'm not familiar with makes me go nuts. At least Windows users have KDE as an option.
I want as much control over my computer as I have with my saxophone
@@VincentGonzalezVeg Windows is like a saxophone that chooses what notes to play for you. Oh you think you know what song you want to play on the sax? No, Microsoft knows best. Get your grubby hands off
Wasn't KDE for Windows discontinued years ago tho?
Long time linux user (nearly daily since 2005). I've long felt like after getting linux set up initially, regardless of distro, but specifically .deb based distros, they are MUCH less maintenance, and easier to keep up to date than windows. I've had an desktop that has been upgraded in-place since ubuntu 10.04 through 21.10, and it still works great, across multiple motherboards and cpus. I've never had that kind of luck on windows, and that machine is a dual boot, so I have a track record to compare with here. A few times windows update has broken windows and grub, and I've had to fix both. I've had far more windows problems than linux ones over the years, and none of the linux problems on this computer required a linux reinstall, and I've had to install a new version of windows when an upgrade didn't work, or reinstalled windows at least 5 times since 2010. For more context: I use linux for work/personal stuff, and windows is ONLY for gaming. It does NOTHING else, and still breaks more.
Preach! The install of Debian Testing I am running on now is roughly 10 years old, continuously updated, and just works flawlessly. I haven't had a Windows box in the house for at least that long, and I don't miss it. I manage Windows servers and Azure assets on the day job and have enough of that wackiness there.
Dual booting for many new Linux users is almost essential, keeping Windows as a 'just in case' backup. However, it always seems that because of this, Windows will break a dual boot setup at any opportunity it can find. This has been my experience also.
@@fenrir7969 This is why we use KVM, but that's a whole other headache to set up.
That issue with the boot loader on secondary drive? Holy shit I was there and it caused a shitton of anxiety when I initially thought I busted my PC and I didn't know how. I don't even remember how I recovered but black magic sounds about right
The easiest way to do it is just do a "repair install" of windows. It leaves everything in place on your HDD and just reinstalls windows and gets the HDD properly configured. I'm sure there's some "black magic" way to do it too, but a windows installer thumb-drive and about 20 minutes of waiting for the repair is the best way to get it done.
He's also greatly exaggerating how common this is. I've installed windows with multiple drives dozens of times (probably well over a hundred), and this has only happened once (and it was caused by my cables being plugged in in the "wrong" places, so the system was treating a second drive as the "master.") Nowadays, with modern hardware, it's practically impossible to reproduce.
@@Hickeroar riiiight you're bringing back memories talking about it lmao. I didn't have a thumb drive and was trying to do it all without one! Would've been an easy enough task of it weren't for the secondary drive issue.
@@Hickeroar Make a 200MB FAT32 partition on the drive windows is on, if it doesn't already have one, Type bcdboot C:\Windows /s X: and your done.
@@pheelix- Is a new user to Windows expected to know that?
Yep, been there, done that. Afterwards I ALWAYS disconnect all secondary drives when installing Windows. Yeah, "stupid dance routine" is the best description of this process I guess.
I'd love to know so much how the internal process of Windows update work. Because as you said - it's just baffling. This should be a simple request where my PC sends "here are the updates I have" and server responds "Ok, here are the updates you don't have". I understand that Windows is on billions of PCs so you need multiple servers/datacenters and releasing a patch isn't a simple process. But still how can it take so long?! Even in complicated architecture like this. I'm just out of ideas. Or is it like decompilling some .dlls to figure out their versions or what?
It's just checking what to break this time
I think the problem is it's just not as simple in windows as saying "Oh, you have version 23? Here's version 24." I'd guess it's more like "Oh, you have version 23 of this but you have this specific program installed and your hardware combined with that program will cause version 27 to crash but we do have version 26 so I guess you can have that for now. But before they can even get to that point your computer has to scan everything it has that can be updated or can influence an update decision and then send all that data to the update server.
That's... exactly what it does.
People are just hysterical that Microsoft has the audacity to _make_ them install critical updates. Don't listen to them.
@@GamePlague That kinda makes sense, but that's also why Microsoft should've made Windows more modular instead of doubling down on its monolithic architecture. Linux is modular in many ways - This is why updates on rolling release distributions typically don't break a lot, if anything at all
@@GamePlague But that's what every linux package manager does too, and they're not nearly as slow (unless you're running gentoo and compiling everything from source anyway, but then you only have yourself to blame :P).
Setting up the Microsoft accounts for Minecraft for my kids was WAY more trouble than it should have been. That was stupidly difficult.
I play without that
Last time I used Windows, seemed like the checking for updates was a few minutes, but the actual installation was a few hours. I always hated how it could never give you a straight answer what phase of the install it was on other than vague downloading 75% and being hung on that forever, or installing 10% and hung on that forever.
Linux, depending on which distro, but usually very much the same, a few moments on pulling the update list, and 15 minutes tops installing updates on a fresh Linux machine, considerably less if you have really fast internet/repo connection and an NVMe drive. Also, you can usually see exactly which phase of update you are on, depending on update method, but using terminal you know exactly what its doing at that moment.
1:13
I've literally watched windows update sit on a 99% download of something for literal days.
And I've also seen windows update completely refuse to download major updates before windows defender updates or the malicious removal program update (which are usually the ones that get stuck)
Update: the laptop has been at 100% downloaded on Windows 11 since Thursday, and won't progress because malicious software removal is stuck at a 97% download
@@ratgrot3184 how’s it doing now
Love my current Windows update problem where it's installing the same update over and over. It claims it's finished each time, but it never actually does.
Hey, that bootloader randomly deciding to install on the secondary drive thing happened to my sister. That was a headache
Happened to me twice. And I learned to install only ONE drive when I have to set up Windows. I'll install other drives after the fact. The Win installer Loves to put bootloader on random drives. And it's something that predates win xp.
I remember building my dads PC in 2010, and I brought along all the HDD from the old pc as archive drives... damn should I not have put those in untill after installing windows. cause fuck that bootloader just decided to yeet itself to lands unknown.
I've fixed my windows bootloader atleast 3 times now, all for fun.
This is an important subject to touch upon, especially with the negative aspects of Linux addressed in the first part.
Sure, people were talking about that "Yes, do as I say" in part one but Windows has a pretty similar thing with its update center. It is pretty much an unwritten rule that Windows updates need to be delayed for a while after all.
Windows for sure has a lot of problems (looking at you settings), but Windows update get's this crazy bad rep when it's primary competition MacOS's updates are far worse. I have never had a Windows update do anything worse than break a single application. I have had MacOS updates brick my entire laptop, delete my files, break all of my programs, make it so that I can't even type in a password on the login screen without a restart every time (how is this even possible).
So if we are going to rag on Windows update, can we at least also bring up how bad MacOS updates are? Honestly the only good update experience I have is Android updates now that they fork the OS and install in the background to just boot into the new instance on restart.
1. My god, MacOS *JuSt WoRkS* haha
2. So Android is now doing the same thing as the immutable distros?
@@tablettablete186 Android has been doing an immutable style file system for quite a while now.
I have had android (one of sonys distros) brick my phone on an update even though it was fully charged and right to go, it is not 100% safe but probably still a lot better than most.
Also could you imagine bloated Windows going immutable.
The system backup configuration screen, in Windows 11, is buried behind a small link under "File History", and when you bring up the screen the title is "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)". How hard would it be to just change that string to just be "Backup and Restore" so it's not confusing to users?
That's all Windows 7 behind Windows 10,which was just bolted on to the code of 7
Just for the touch screen TEC that Microsoft felt left out of!
With those big blocky UI for fingers only, basically forced on a desk top PC!?
If you didn't have a touch screen you had to still use it!
After 10 years I took the old HDD drive out with Windows 10 on it and left it in a draw.
And installed pop! OS on SSD. But certain software will have nothing to do with Linux.
But that's a good thing because it's less bloat,what you see is that Linux trims the fat
that you were used to on Windows, simply less is more.😁👍
Yes, asking a new user to install Windows on a bare metal machine would be very appropriate as a counterpoint to the current Linux challenge. And just to make things interesting have them do it on a machine from one of the OEMs like Dell or HP or fill in the blank. Installation media - oh snap! they don't provide that. The license key is in the BIOS, so if you want to do a fresh install because you need to wipe the machine or your hard drive crashed or whatever, now you have to go through the dance of where do I find the install media? Tell me that the average user will know how to go on to the Microsoft website download the install media make a bootable USB stick... Seriously?
I have a Chromebook and the updates are seamless and when the computer restarts and applies the update it doesn't take any more time then a normal restart, however chromeOS does have its own serious issues none the less
that's why you only have 1 HDD/SDD plugin when installed win that problem has been there forever.
on linux I always use the terminal "sudo apt update" or "sudo apt update && upgrade".
That boot loader bug happened after I put my laptop back together, that was extremely annoying taking it apart again to remove the other drive
Usually as soon as you start linux up (almost any distro) once you log in it shows you exactly what updates you need and how large the files are.
And the longer you use Linux, the more an increasing number of typically overlooked problems with Windows becore both obvious and increasingly frustrating for you. It's fitting that it's called Windows, as that's what I want to throw a computer through after 10 minutes in that horrendous OS these days.
Windows Update alone is a HUGE reason why I'm REALLY trying to learn the ins and outs of Linux as best as I can, and I also happen to be attending Tech school so I've been making HUGE progress with it. Right now I'm rockin' Linux Lite and I LOVE it, even if I can't run some of my games, I can still play my modded Minecraft, and have been able to get my old Unreal Tournament 2004 running on Wine, as well as finding all the alternate programs to replace what I use on Windows.
The best thing for me about Linux updates is that it applies them to all the software on the system and not just the os
Am I missing something? When you click check for updates what I assume happens is that windows sends a request to their cloud server, the server processes the request and then sends back a response. Isn't 11 seconds like a perfectly reasonable time window for that to happen?
Let's just talk about how unacceptable it is for Windows to look like an inconsistent mess. Most Linux distros more consistent and polished despite being free and being maintained by smaller devs.
I wouldn't call it being more consistent to have gtk programs running on Plasma or qt software in gtk environments but sure, inconsistency sucks on either OS.
I'd rather take a slightly less consistent UX on an OS that has excellent backward-compatibility and a shitload of resources on every corner vs using some shite that you can't find a working tutorial for just a couple of months down the line (or even none at all!) because those "smaller devs" each have their own way of thinking and doing things. It's not even a competition.
@@MegaManNeo Why would you consider running programs written in a different toolkit than the DE an "inconsistency"? You can run GTK or Qt programs even on Windows. It's not a problem. What he's saying is that Windows, being developed by a single company, has so many UI inconsistencies within itself.
@@ClifffSVK Because it doesn't look consistent either way.
Frankly enough, I have more of an issue with that these days that I know what a toolkit is than say 20 years ago when say Windows XP and KDE 3 were hot garbage.
@@TheUltimateBlooper Backwards compatibility? Literally all that changes between each Windows is a fresh coat of paint, some new features, and a Settings layout redesign. You wouldn't say that your car tires are "backwards compatible" with older tires-- you'd say that despite the looks, it's all pretty unchanged.
Something I've noticed more recently is just how many resources are taken up when I first open the settings app too. It does a fine job when being unused, it doesn't take up much at all when not in use, but the second I open it, my laptop will struggle for a bit before loading the settings app again.
Which is so weird, isn't it? I have a Linux extension on my computer called Vitality that tells me my resource usage in the tray (CPU Temp, usage %, RAM used, etc). Opening up Steam to install games is 1% CPU and 29% RAM, but on Windows, it can be 10% and 40%. Where does it all go?? What's happening when it's the same program, just different OS'??
It's sounding like Linus and Luke are starting to warm up to using Linux more and more. It makes me happy to hear : )
One thing that annoys me a lot is that my computer randomly wakes up in the middle of the night. I've set the automatic updates to happen during the day, because you can't turn them off. So I don't know what it's doing, it just shows the login screen, but no other activity. There is nothing in the notifications either.
It happened to my brother many times. I've read somewhere that is is related to updates, that it downloads them at the time range you specify, but sets a planned boot at nighttime to "finish" updating and staying on.
After we turned of all Windows updates that behavior stopped.
Me: Windows, is there a new update?
Windows: Always "Is there a new update" with you, never "how is the new update" with you. Come on man. Just give these updates some love. We're breaking our ass for you to fix these miniscule bugs and you're like "gimme gimme!" You want an update? Here's the new update.
Me: Jeez, okay.
I don't know if I did something right... but I've never had Windows restart my PC automatically due to an update.
Am I a genius?... I really can't say, but yes.
@@mapache-ehcapam You probably never noticed or have updates off because of reasons (company policies set by the IT department, pirated OS, etc). I've had that happen to me on multiple occasions and I've lost work (overnight renderings) due to these stupid restarts. First thing I do on a new Windows install - turn off auto updates. No problems after that.
This comment legit made me laugh out loud, thanks
@@TheUltimateBlooper Nope, I notice this kind of stuff I'm not an idiot, I have a legit personal copy of W10.
Never restarted on me unless I directly do it myself.
@@mapache-ehcapam the problem is when using a laptop when you close it, windows will sometimes restart whilst you still have things open
Talking about win updates, my updates page is probably bugged out right now. The update is stuck on downloading at 0% for like days now. I think I have to force stop it and restart it🤣
I remember when I recently built my new computer (my first time ever building one myself), I had two SSD drives installed, one PCIE 4.0 and the other a 2.5' SATA.
The Windows installer doesn't tell you anything about the drives except for their size, so I had to guess which one since both were 1TB.
I ended up putting it on the wrong drive and had to remove the 2.5' SSD entirely to reinstall windows on the other drive, then wipe the other one to remove the windows boot on it.
What a fun experience.
What I hate about windows is that the first solution in most forums (especially their support forums) is just "get used to it". You have to dig and learn way more to fix something in windows than in linux. The only serious issue I got in linux was that an app wasn't working because the updates required were still in beta for my distro, I just updated the distro and everything works perfectly IN BETA. I'd like to see windows pull a stable beta.
Funny how he said that with the bootloader on another drive ... for like 5 years or so i was running an 10 year old SSD because it had my bootloader. Sole reason why that ssd was still in my system. Had a fun time fixing that a few months ago
That bootloader on the wrong drive happened when I cloned my old nvme drive to my new one this summer. it took me a week of many hours per day to figure it out. I've never been so frustrated with a computer problem in my life.
Personally I’d like to say that I’ve had so many issues with the windows installer. I’ve had the issue where windows puts the boot loader on the wrong drive, it took me forever to figure out that was the problem and I had to just disconnect all other drives. I’ve also had issues where my windows installer usb just completely stops working after I use it 1 time, and I have to reformat it and download windows all over again to use it again. It sucks
I had the issue with the broken installer USB as well. Installed Windows once, screwed something and wanted to do a fresh install. Put in the same USB, which was reported to be not bootable. Now I'm using a tool named Ventoy to boot the iso file and never had that issue again. I assume that during the install, it wrote something to the USB. With Ventoy, the iso is read-only.
@@gragogflying-anvil3605 It just doesnt make any sense to me why microsoft is so bad at some of this stuff. I see no reason why any of this should be a problem. Dont even get me started on the microsoft store. My brothers computer basically is fucked up and a lot of windows services dont even work, he cant update his pc and that also means the microsoft store doesnt work
Theres an unfixed bug with windows 10 where the task bar has like a 20% chance of not going away in full screen until you click the start button. It's annoying.
Yup that boot loader issue has been around for a long long time.
I had that exact same Windows installer issue the other day. I spent DAYS trying to figure it out. Windows sometimes even refused to install because it thought the small FAT32 boot partition on my Linux drive was the Windows system partition.
With 9 operating systems multi-booting from three disks, if I run Windows setup, it would be like playing Russian roulette with a clip pistol. The trick is to start setup on a VM, then clone the partition after the second restart, set the boot loader and registry, and it will happily boot the out of box experience.
oh man that bootloder issue has been around since Windows 7, I remember encountering it years ago and ended up having to format and reinstall because I wiped the second drive I removed so there was no hope of fixing it.
Regarding the "you need Windows Game bar to invite friends". Some Steam games also require the Steam Overlay so that you can invite friends to your games.
Otherwise I would get no "Invite list".
11 seconds to check for updates on windows? that's so fast, i don't believe
Microsoft pushing their Microsoft-Account, Edge, etc. regardless of my chosen preferences is what turned me to Linux part-time. Therefore, a dual-booting hint from a part-timer:
1. Look at a tutorial online
2. Do that
3. Literally never do it again, because once it is set up, it should work forever
If something unexpectedly fails after 2 weeks: Back to 1.
1:13 "Windows update is so bad!"
YES absolutely. In fact my windows update completely bugged out. I'm still on version 1909 and can not do the update. It says to me that I'm missing important security and quality fixes but when I search for updates it doesn't find anything.
Oh and I there is a small window from micorosoft family features which says that I should log in every few minutes and even if I log in IT JUST COMES BACK AND MINIMIZES MY FRKING GAME
I'm stuck on 1809 (or similar) because every single newer version results in a BSoD after a few minutes.
for big windows updates just nuke the system and do a fresh install for performance reasons
I have worked for years in IT. Windows is great in many way, I have been very lucky that I have not had any major software issues and mainly hardware issues.
OpenVPN sucks, the 2 IT companies both supported fortinet and openVPN, I would have so many issues with ovpn, I did with fortinet as well, but significantly less.
If someone was new to computers and asked me what OS I would recommend I would offer some linux options, however, I would still offer windows as some things are just easier for the end user.
I can't wait for the day that linux gets more support and is heavily supported by game and software devs.
For now, I will keep working on my first attempt to daily drive linux.
It's been hard but I have a unique situation aka very budget tight gaming/streaming pc that did its job well, but is underpowered for Web development (full stack). So I decided to build my own artix linux os and set up,my own desktop enviroment to keep it light on resources.
My biggest issue so far has been my 2060 super, with the recent news I hope that changes soon.
If you install Windows first, GRUB will recognize it by default on most distributions. If it doesn't, it's just a matter of setting GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=false in /etc/default/grub (or the equivalent file on your distribution). The other way around might is more tricky.
I also had the bug! Now, everytime I reinstall windows I disconnect all my other drives 😂.. I'm to scared that this happen again
""""""""bug"""""""""
I've had so many times where Windows installed the boot related stuff to the first drive instead of the second drive and messed up my Linux install. I've learned to just remove the drive or disable the port in the BIOS until I'm done
Now I know what happened when I gave windows a chance and try dual-booting for valorant.
I knew windows just likes to ruin itself, but damn I don't fucking know why was there a fucking windows bootloader overriding my grub ON A DIFFERENT DRIVE!!!
The workaround for being able to configure your game folders or even remove them is a PITA on w10 - have to do an administrator rights dance to access the folder itself then set them for the folders you want to remove or edit.
Am I the only person that I don't have any issues with Windows updates?
I don't recall a single time that I have been inconvenienced by it.
But how long it takes to know if you need updates or not does need to be resolved
00:43 Had to recreate my bootloader yesterday and it‘s true, it takes very long and would be very hard for any normal user.
Windows Update takes a lot of time because Windows updates aren't app packages or firmware updates. They are patches in an 'update format'. Windows has to check every update package and approve them in order to pull the newer patches and its dependencies. That's why it takes so long.
This was worse in older versions since Windows pre-10 were built only once per service pack. They were not rebuilt again so every change they do stayed as an update package, which broke a lot of things. I remember Windows 7 updates taking actual hours to even start listing the updates to choose. (Windows 10 gets rebuilt every 6 months. Windows 11 gets rebuilt every year.)
Thanks for the insight.
There had to be an explanation for this and I am glad I found your comment.
So they choose a stupid way to distribute their updates but this still doesn't sound like a reason for the time it takes. Even with a dumb scheme like this you can still get a list of which patches that you have applied, then download a list of the available patches and do a quick diff of those. On top of that they also only support a handful of applications in that update so the database shouldn't be that large either.
Ever had to restart explorer.exe because the start menu and task bar just wouldnt come up? Even directly after booting? Yeah, that's Windows
Is there an OS where the Check for Updates is instantaneous? Windows Updates definitely takes longer than it should, but I've used several Debian/Ubuntu and derivatives, and running apt update has never been instant for me. It's certainly faster than Windows Update, but it's also generally on the order of seconds to hit all of the package repos and compile an update list, certainly a whole lot more than milliseconds.
The fear of the command line is tarded. The reason Windows users hate the command line, is simply because the Windows command line was always USELESS and never ever worth even bothering to use. A real command line shell in an OS like Linux or MacOS is easy to use and extremely worth using.
its easy to use but intimidating, show that to grandma who just wants to play battlefield and she wont even try
@@mylesfrost335 Bah, my Mom was a wiz at the DOS shell. It's just a matter of being exposed to it.
11 seconds? More like minutes sometimes!
It took me 2 hrs to get Forza Horizon 5 working on my PC.
And the Microsoft store still thinks it’s not installed.
Even though it veritably is.
Not to mention Windows Games for Live or some bullshit like that, a lot of old games are not playable because of that.
Yeah that was really really bad.
I had the issue where windows installed the bootloader to another drive. Managed to reinstall windows to the drive I wanted it on, and the other drive doesnt boot anymore
WSL is an amazing piece of technology, as is Office 365 and Azure. I feel like all the really capable people at Microsoft have been gravitating to working on exciting stuff like that and thus there is nobody to fix the boring stuff like the settings or Windows Update.
The point where they switched away from the Windows 7 style settings (like the Network and Sharing Center) instead of just improving them was where I was done with Windows. I have been using Debian on servers since 2014, was brought into desktop Debian by my apprenticeship in software development (where installing closed-source operating systems on company hardware was not allowed unless explicitly permitted) and have been on the same Arch installation since 2018 - never looked back. If there is something that doesn't work on Linux, just use virt-manager to create a VM. Maybe pass through a GPU if you need it. Takes a bit of work but once you know how to do it and wrote your own notes and scripts for it, everything becomes easy.
Microsoft isn't just a "multi-billion dollar corporation", they're a TRILLION dollar corporation now.
...and yet, in some cases, software made by a group of academically-unqualified volunteers hacking things together in their free time on ten year old mid-range machines beats a competitive Microsoft product in key areas
wonky shit with fullscreen alt tab and task manager can be frustrating as hell. I have had many times where I have had to restart just because a game froze and even though I could see the rest of my pc working, alt tab wouldn't work and task manager would pop up but as soon as I click on it the game takes over fullscreen again, still frozen.
For the windows bootloader issue, I was copying over my windows install to a new SSD via macrium reflect and somehow that created two seperate bootloaders in bios that were on the same drive. So I was sitting there confused AF because of the BSOD. Tried the command line fix, it didn't detect my bootloaders at all. Ended up randomly clicking around in bios desperately and found the issue. The fact that this could happen with just a simple copy-paste to new drive is beyond me.
about forza: specifically valve got it working and made it available for anyone using steam by just picking "Proton Experimental" in the proton version
One of the problems with Windows - Modern Standby and bugs with all the software and firmware related to it. But to be honest it never worked on Linux at all.
Standby works fine on Linux.
2:00 Maybe it needs to search within 100's of files for some data. When you request the status of installed patches, check if it is using disk, memory, CPU, ...
I'm using GNU+Linux for 6 years now and I have to say sometimes it really sucks when things don't work. But that's the price I'm ready to pay for a software I truly own. Unlike windows where I pay for a it and it basically is Microsoft's spyware.
What's wrong with 11 seconds? Taking into account that it is looking for stuff in several places at once, it seems pretty fast compared to my 8s on Mint for a manual refresh.
For Luke's experience, it just checks for updates in the background, which Windows also does. For some reason there is no update notification on Windows 11 in the tray anymore though, as I just found out.
Edit: Win11 took 6s for a manual check
Speaking of windows update, forget about using your computer if you haven't turned it on in a month or two. The amount of time your computer will run like absolute crap while windows does TONS of stuff in the background is WAY too long.
I can not use my spare Linux Laptop for Months at a time, and when I log in to Manjaro, it's fine. Whenever I log into windows on that laptop after several months, it takes several hours for the CPU usage to drop from windows update, anti-malware, etc.
what dinosaur are you using? Any computer made in the last 10 years should not suffer from this problem as long as it has an SSD. If you don't have an SSD, then that is a long overdue upgrade for your system.
@@yotoprules9361 The laptop has an i5-5300u with a Samsung 870. Same thing on my main gaming laptop with an i7-7700hq and an NVME ssd installed. It doesn't take an hour on the i7, but it takes 20-30 minutes when I don't use it for 2-3 months.
I've recently done an install on an older computer with an i5-3500k + dramless SSD, and the install + all windows updates took 10+ hours to complete, including all of the reboots.
Have you personally not used a computer for several months at a time on windows 10? Using the computer daily or weekly, you would never see the issue.
@@Undeaddeaths I've seen the issue happen on 15 year old cpus with slow hdds. Other than that, nope. I haven't used a few pcs in a few months that I've refurbished for a charity and never any problem with any system that has an ssd and a relatively decent cpu. Cpu idles after a few minutes maybe.
@@Undeaddeaths also I don't believe that 3500k system. I have an old core 2 duo 2.4ghz laptop, 4 gigs of ram, dramless 120gig ssd, and it takes maybe 20 minutes to get to the desktop after pressing install? Updates take maybe 30-60 minutes but that's due to the slow cpu mostly. Your cpu is significantly faster.
When ever I update my computer it blue screens and says update failed and it gets rid of it. Then when I fully shutdown my computer again it has to install blue screen and reset each time.
Minecraft for Windows 10 is a nightmare. I had to port over from Java which I've been using for 10+ years because my friend didn't have it purchased, he had gamepass. It wouldn't install for whatever reason, and I had to go to apex servers because the Minecraft native "servers" don't stay up while you're offline. At least I got my money back when we gave up.
Windows fails me when it comes to audio. The need for a restart any time I plug something into a port is ridiculous.
Windows may be crappy but it makes up for it by being relatively user friendly, it's the inverse of Linux.
Also good software support like drivers etc
SO SO SO many times i have ran into the second drive boot loader issue. To this day this is why when i install windows i disconnect EVERY drive but the one im installing on
The windows problems seem to be oonga boonga to me, I don't understand anything you said. But on linux, most problems are what even regular users have
...and yet can't fix without reading an enormous wall of text.
@@MegaManNeo this is unfortunately why we still put up with windows
@@kneesnap1041 Exactly.
Frankly enough, I used to watch a video of one of the Linux orientated channels on RUclips earlier today in which it was mentioned that the devs behind Pop_OS! actually listened to Linus' and Luke's critic after WAN Show and the first publicly available episode of the challenge and tweaked apt so you actually can not remove Xorg and the DE anymore unless you do some more steps.
I think that is the first of many steps which shows just how much we need LTT to make that challenge.
The bug from the beginning of the video, i had to spend 8 hours installing and uninstalling windows to figure out why tf and what is actually happening
Biggest problem I feel is, when you just bought a new computer takes forever to get ready to use. Mac is so much faster.
No it doesn't. Takes like 5 minutes
@@quint2568 Mac took me about 15 seconds
0:30 I literally just discovered this problem when seeing if I could turn on TPM. How does that even happen? I couldn't upgrade to Windows 11 on my PC even if I wanted to. Even though every part I have is supported.
I don't know how the hell I'm supposed to fix it without a full wipe. Which I can't do without a drive to backup everything.
Haha that's hilarious
wait, there's a part 6 released? when were the other 4 released? i didn't get a notification on anything like that going on
Multiplayer gaming is starting to remind me of the good old days when you had to start the MP game through setup.exe and literally launch the game in different mode with all done in the setup, unable to do anything once you were ingame....
Where did all the UI for Multiplayer lobby and setting got away?
I hate to "invite friends" through external apps or even full game lobbies done in browsers (thing BF3 got that... never ever started the game after it)
1:45 i feel like it's because YOUR configuration is unique and it has hundreds of firmware and drivers and little things that possibly need updates and it has to check compatibility with everything. It's not just like downloading a new version of ios
"Learning grub" isn't really a thing. Sometimes there's dumb stuff where installing windows hides your ability to boot into Linux, or installing Linux messes up your windows boot partition, but other than that you really shouldn't have to mess with grub other than it popping up with a menu to choose your OS whenever you boot. (It is possible to change your default, hide boot options, customize how long the options show up, etc, but you don't NEED to do any of that.)
Man, xbox game bar hasn't worked for me for months and I used it to record videos. Damn thing just stops responding over time and win+g does nothing. I have to go to task manager and end task for it to work again.
Windows update today: I came home to my always on PC. Nothing responded. The clock was correct. I pressed reset, and there was some update... I've turned them off, but I guess if it can't update just freeze the HIDs.
0:20 Can confirm. My install is on drive C, and the bootloader is separated and somehow ended up on a second ssd, drive D. Win won't boot without the second ssd hooked up - love it.
The bootloader on the secondary drive is exactly why I have to disable all other drives for the install on a client PC. Random luck of the draw is so true.
I dual boot linux and windows and that bug where the bootloader is on the secondary drive, yeah that happens every single time. I've reinstalled windows about 11 times in the past 2 years because this happens every time and then I install linux on my second drive and windows goes bye bye.