I truly love Jon's insights in all these reviews: -he read the books giving him some extra important knowledge -he never spoiled anything book related -he has good comments -yet he remains objective and isn't a blind book lover, show hater
+PurpleBadger everybody complained about Dorne last season and what do they do? Kill off the only characaters remptely interesting and relevant and leave us with the shitty ones. GG Dave and Dan, GG.
I didn't have a problem with the assassinations. She sees Doran as a traitor - for failing to avenge Oberyn (who she really cared about, moreso than Elia and her baby) Doran has betrayed Oberyn and Dorne in her eyes. That makes him fair game. Her motives mirror those of the Night's Watch who turned against Jon. The same thing happening in the North is happening in the South. But yeah, it's obvious that they realized that the Dorne plot has been poorly handled, and so they're pruning it as rapidly as possible.
I think on a thematic level what we're supposed to get out of the Melisandre scene is that she is at her most vulnerable right now. She is losing her faith and she is depressed, and she is confronting her true self. She's on the edge of giving up.
+Sofia A That is pretty much what I took out of this scene. To me this was not a regular occurrence and was her basicly giving up. It was as though Melisandre was thinking that everything is simply a lie or an illusion and that she was ready to have death take her.
Xanthus Agreed. I actually really loved that scene, and I thought it was beautifully shot. And oddly enough, I'm actually glad that they showed her naked elderly body. I thought it just made it all the more powerful just how naked she feels (literally and figuratively). And frankly, to me nudity doesn't have to be sexualized. So it kind of annoys me that other people's reactions have been "Ugh! She was hot one second, and then the other second she's not hot! How am I supposed jerk off to her now?"
+Walker Higgins "We don't hurt little girls in Dorne" Oberyn Martell "Why don't we commemorate Oberyn by killing one little girl, his brother and nephew?" Ellaria Sand
+Amanda Lynn I don't think so. They were trying to get Doran to act on their behalf. When he refused, they had to kill him to get him out of the way. They killed Myrcella to try and stir the pot. They killed Trystane to remove him from the line of succession because he, like Doran, was a weak man. Ellaria is blood-thirsty and wants revenge. She'll do whatever it takes to get it, and her primary desire to war with the Lannisters.
The reveal wasn't about showing her powerful magic, it was about showing her feeling disbelief, like she had been cheated all along and her visions were false. She had her necklace off in other scenes in the past (like in a bathtub) and maintained her glamour, but now...she said she felt the heat leave her body, and her disbelief is having an influence on her magic in a negative way.
+Rick I truly think she wasn't TRULY serving The Lord of Light.. it seemed as though, she had her own agenda. But yeah, it's one of the reasons why I didn't like this episode. Cause it made me feel sorry for her.. I hated that. Although, I just realized now, that her visions may in fact be true..and Stannis is alive and hiding out in Winterfell. Like she predicted.
What a waste of Doran and Hotah. They were the only part of the Dorne storyline I didn't think the writers botched, and then they go and kill them in a really contrived and implausible coup. Really, Doran's support in Dorne was so weak Ellaria could convince his own guards to betray him without being found out? Dorne is supposed to be pissed because _Martells_ keep getting slaughtered, why would they support killing more Martells? Just does not make sense to me.
+Fangtorn Yeah and Dorne is liberal, but why should the other Lords support a non noble woman and few bastard daughters? In the Books they would probably send and armie to Sunspear execute them all and make an Ironwood or so the new head family.
+IIBizzy Everything you said is right Ellaira Sand is a Noble woman she born to Lord Uller, but she is bastard. She have no rights to rule Dorne, but her children may have slim chance if all Trueborns (MARTELL) dies in a battle or sickness but this Kinslaying in coup d'état there is no way Dorne's Vassal would approval this.
We did need to see that scene with Melisandre. That reminder of Melisandre as "powerful", disrobing fully and revealing her true self, not only was a reminder of magic, but also was MELISANDRE GIVING UP. She becomes her true self and decides to lie in bed. The people she believed wholeheartedly would win the fight for the dawn, Stannis, Jon, are dead. Melisandre was so confident Stannis was the man in the flames, then that it was Jon in the flames, them being dead makes Melisandre completely hopeless. What does she have left to fight for? What's the point of her "keeping appearances" if they're doomed? Melisandre has given up, and removing her necklace is a sign of that.
+MacX1985 If you watch the scene again, you can see the jewel part of the necklace dim as Melisandre removes it. It seems magical/might be magical, but I think the power comes from Melisandre and now that she's lost faith in the Red God, her magic/faith/power is, as you said a metaphor, gone.
+Nyctohylophiliac I can't stand when Ben reviews the show. He makes sure to go out of his way to let the viewers know he's above it. So don't review it. Go watch The Newsroom for the millionth time, Ben. It's just so obnoxious and annoying and doesn't contribute to discussion whatsoever.
''I'd like some mutton'' is a brilliant line. Not only did it serve to convince Alliser and his gang that Davos actually believed they were going to let them go but their hesitation at his words completely exposed their true intentions that they were not going to let Davos and co. go. If they were to let them go in such harsh conditions (this is just tip of the winter) they'd have to give them food, horses and other resources for them not to die in the first place. Brilliant.
"Nudity is good only when it titillates me". That's basically what Ben is saying. Which reinforces what is often given as a criticism of nudity, that it is only there to titillate. And then you'd have self-proclaimed "liberal" people like Ben saying that it is not and that it's purpose is this or that blah blah blah. Ben get your head straight. Also, I like saying titillate. Titillate.
+chuvzzz That's not what he's saying, you got it backwards. He was saying that at first he thought the nudity was gratuitous because he thought it served no purpose until we saw her morph into the old woman, then he came to understand the purpose behind the scene.
Oh God. It seems no one gets that melisandre is extremely depressed about the situation. Her faith is crumbling down in front of her face after being a fanatic for so long. She thinks her visions are all wrong. Stannis lost even after burning shireen, she has a vision of Jon battling in winterfell and he dies the next minute. She took the necklace because she is seriously questioning her faith.
+Raquel Costa Yeah, that's what I thought too. I know that Jon Snow is coming back, but for that instant I lost a little bit of hope, because of how she had given up.
+timsnuck2 I love nolan movies but that one was clearly a passion project and not something many directors would get money to make cause it is really slow and drags on. I like it more when he tells stories about the human mind. That is why fex his joker idea was so brilliant but why bane was fun but not really that interesting especially since while bvs has major problems batman can beat the living shit out of people and do it as well and better than daredevil. While they should have done the riddler instead and lean in more towards the detective route even though bale's batman isn't " bat-god who knows everything sherlock style. And I've seen more than batman movies just easier to make comparison with
Doran had a master plan!!! D&D say they don't have enough material to make seasons 7 and 8 10 episodes long, but if they would stop cutting corners and trying to push an unnecessary female power agenda, they would have more than enough material. The Dornish Masterplan is one of the most interesting and important storylines in the books and they just threw it out the window.
+Dasaun McClinton I agree with everything you said but the part about female power agenda this push by Arya, Briennce Tarth, Cathy Stark, Sansa Stark by stay quiet in King Lannding, The Red Woman, Yrgitte, Yara Greyjoy etc SandSnakes this is not feminism this is cold blooded murder simple Kinslaying.
+Dasaun McClinton They deliberately screwed the Dornish storyline in my opinion (Dan & Dave) They just wanted to trim the fat and couldn't care less about the most compelling storyline in "A Feast for Crows". I could have written something special for House Martell this season when I was still in high school
Sophia Wilson That's my point. There's already plenty of powerful women on this show, so I don't understand why they would sacrifice such a great storyline for yet another one. It isn't even well written.
I agree with all of the theory that Jon will be different when he comes back. I think most importantly if he comes back he should be free of his Night''s Watch Oath.* He has fulfilled that oath. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory..." You don't have to die twice and he's now free to do all the things that were not allowed before. Melisande saw Jon in the flames at Winterfell... there's still time for that and now that Jon isn't bound by his oath he could return to defend his home and after Sansa tells Jon what the Bolton's did to her and on top of the Bolton's earlier betrayal, he's going to want to burn them all alive.
"You don't need to see an old woman's nudity". Well, guess what, you will, soon enough, so get prepared and give respect. That hate at old folks' bodies I swear.
Here it is guys: Jon is a Targaryan, his mother is Lyanna Stark and his father was Raegar. They were in love, she wasn't kidnapped. Ned took him in (he made a promise to his sister before she died, no one knows what it is) and he said to Jon before he left for the wall "Next time I see you, we'll talk about your mother." Jon is going to come back, reborn as Jon Targaryan, uniting the North and the South. Also, he is free of his obligations to the Night's Watch because it is an oath taken until death, he died. Bran will be involved in his resurrection. Sansa and Theon will make it to The Wall, meet up with Jon/Bran and then the topic of Arya will come up. Brienne will say that she is across the narrow sea, and Jon will want to go rescue her. They may also decide to meet up with Dany at this point. Theon will contact his sister, and the Greyjoys will help them sail to Essos (masters of the sea). They'll find Arya, meet up with Dany's squad, and the Greyjoys will help them all come back....with a Dothraki hoard. Shit hits the fan.
I believed that Ellaria would go crazy right after Oberyn's death, but since then she seems pretty normal. These scenes with her and Doran were weak. The sand snakes are terribly uninteresting and their thirst for revenge isn't really justified. Oberyn screwed himself, and if Ellaria is crazy with grief then they are not selling it at this point. She should not have been so calm and matter of fact when she killed Doran. She should be going off the rails screaming and crying. The big dude should have died in a way that indicated an extremely painful but fast acting poison was used. Then while Doran watches in horror, Ellaria jumps on him like a banshee and slices him to shreds. That I would have believed! There's no passion or emotion in any of these deaths. And why would all the other guards just stand around like it was no big deal? Doran only had 1 loyal guard? I guess they were paid off, because there's no way you can convince me that the Dornish people still care about a princess who was killed 20 years ago, or a prince who died in a trial by combat against the Mountain. Killing the young Trystane just seemed very wasteful, and again it was done without any kind of emotional significance.
I watch Game of Thrones with a NYC neighbor who doesn't talk about the show after the episode. If I bring up a few plot turns, that person just looks at me and lets me talk, but doesn't join in, so I LOVE these guys, especially Ben (for his insights and humor). You are providing a service, guys. :) Welcome back!
Don't know why everybody keeps wanting Stannis to be alive. He's definitely dead. The Boltons found his body and Roose even considered given a reward to whoever struck the killing blow. Storywise Brienne could not have let him live. He killed Renly whom she loved as more than a lover, and in her mind was executing Stannis on behalf of the Seven Kingdom's laws (and her vengeance).
+Frenzy786 They didn't show them finding a body. But the way they were talking they clearly went out (or sent a follow up searching party) and saw it. Don't be hostile, fuckface.
Come on. Matt. Okay, so let's think this through. In order to get revenge for Oberyn's sister, and Oberyn's death himself, I am going to kill his brother, and his nephew, and an innocent girl (even though Oberyn was clearly opposed to that). It makes no sense at all. Furthermore, it's not as if he was assassinated, he was showboating and got himself killed in an honorable duel. It also makes no sense that many of Doran's vassals would accept a bunch of "bastard" women take over in a violent coup. This is all just a convoluted way of making the rebellion happen to make up for the loss of characters that have been cut. It could have been handled better, I just have to suspend my disbelief I suppose.
+Indigocell Her hate and desire for revenge consumed her until she became someone Oberyn would hate. She is like a Jedi that turns Sith for good intentions but becomes the very evil she tried to destroy.
+Indigocell Yeah I haven't read the books and I have to agree with you; the Dorne storyline so far just makes no sense. I honestly expected her to turn around and have to face the guards, but no, for some reason they didn't attack. They've also clearly cut corners and not shown us the actual cities, the people on the ground so to speak, so we have no idea if they are happy with their leader... and I imagine they would be, since it's a relatively peaceful land, I think?? Also, thanks for not going off about a "feminist agenda" blah blah blah just because this bit of bad writing happens to include women being bad ass lol So many of these YT comments are making me roll my eyes.
+Bridget Whelan What's particularly annoying about the show's Dorne is that Doran is respected (if not loved) by the Dornish in the books and Ellaria (of all people) would NEVER pull what she did in the show. I'm kind of appalled tbh.
+Robby R Agreed. I took that conversation to be specifically intended to explain that Stannis is dead, that they had found his body but no one knew who killed him. If they hadn't found his body, Roose wouldn't have have been speaking to Ramsey like it was a settled fact that Stannis died and wanted only to know who had killed him.
Meli being revealed as ancient and *still* being surprised when she learned of Thoros' ability to resurrect people *should* be a clear indication that we'll get some sort of Red-God-fueled resurrection in the future. That reveal makes her scenes with the Brotherhood back in season 3 even more important and I'm even more convinced now that it was a setup for something that's still ahead. Also: Remember how she told Arya that they "would meet again"? I wonder if *that* one is going to come true and under what circumstances...
Margaery is under arrest for lying about her brother's buggery even though Loras hasn't been tried and proven guilty of it yet. Anybody see a problem with that? She's being held even though the Faith hasn't proven a crime has even been committed. If somebody bothered to point that out, considering the smallfolk love Margaery, nobody would raise much fuss if the King stormed the Sept to get her.
You guys may be correct, but I took the scene with Melisandre completely differently. I don't imagine she removes the necklace every night. I saw it as symbolic that she's lost her faith, and so why bother with the illusion anymore? There have been scenes in earlier seasons where she hasn't been wearing the necklace. So I don't think the necklace is specifically tied to her illusion, I think there are probably different ways to maintain it (ie the potions we see when Stannis's wife visits her and she's bathing). The necklace, to me, was just sort of the last remnant she had of her belief in the red god's power, and by removing it, showed how deep her crisis of faith has gone. That's why I think Jon's return, however it happens, will be the thing that reaffirms her faith.
good comment, you can see her faith being shaken in the season before, when stannis gets bad news, and later again when she realizes Jon is dead, even though she thought he would play a big role. Also why take like 5 min for the scene if you just want to show what the power of the necklace is. You might be onto something.
I don't think GRRM intended Jon's death and resurrection to be that much of a surprise, even if it is too big to be hidden anyway. The event itself, and its consequences, are so huge that it doesn't need to be.
+Alex Huen Matt and John seem invested, Ben (the guy on the left) doesn't even remember the names of Jorah and Doran, he also didn't remember she got blinded, wtf?
The Brienne fight was great apart from the dogs and the handler suddenly vanishing. Although it's possible that the handler will reappear in the next episode to tell the Boltons what happened, maybe they could have shown them running off into the woods. The fight itself was awesome. Repeated clashing swords on horseback is an unrealistic Hollywood movie thing - it's simply too awkward for that. They come together, collide and then come around again if they aren't unhorsed/dead.
Side note: people seem to find Brienne and Pod boring for some reason. I love them together - two of the few truly noble characters on the show. Brienne is a true knight, and Pod is a true squire.
I'd say there are a total of 2 fans who like the Dorne storyline. Seriously did D&D not listen? They killed the only character the fans didn't hate in that arc.
Arya is being trained to become a faceless man. If she refuses to let go of Arya Stark (by holding onto her past grudges and possesions), she can wear a face but she cannot truly be faceless.
I don't get how the sand snakes got access to Trystane. If he was on the boat to King's Landing when Myrcella died, it seems like Cersei or Jamie would want to keep him as a hostage rather than just send him back to Dorne. But if he is still in a small boat at King's Landing (why?), how did the sand snakes get to King's Landing, board the boat and get access to him?
+Darewin Ocampo If Jaime realized that they killed his daughter, hes not going to send Trystane back to them, for sure. Hed want to keep him hostage at the very least. The sand snakes being with him literally made no sense...
+CaptainHappen Seriously! I didn't catch that myself, but that's totally right. My memory wasn't that sharp. There's no way Jamie would send Trystane back. I remember wondering if he'd kill him on the boat at the end of last season. Assuming he decided not to, he most certainly would have taken him hostage after the Martell family apparently poisons Marcella, murdering her right in front of him.
As I understood it: Using the 'faces' without being 'ready' has side effects. So the blindness isn't punishment for killing the wrong guy. It's a direct consequence of wearing a face before being ready.
+Bjottis That's not the case in the books tho so it's debatable. It could still be a punishment since doing things like using the mask without earning that privilige first is heavily frowned upon.
Nice job, guys! You are my favorite place to get after-show discussion! Always well done. No one brought up the fact that Tristayne seemed to be in the wrong place or else the sand snakes took a very fast ship to Tristayne's ship.... didn't he go with Jaime? He seemed to know Marcella was dead---was painting her eyes on rocks.... so where did this take place?
As much as John knows about the books, it's kind of weird that he doesn't remember Arya's story line. Last season, he thought that it ended when she was shown the hall of faces. I didn't read the books until after season 5 so I was kind of surprised that there is some very important Arya material that hasn't been done, both from DwD and the preview from WoW. I wonder whether they're going to introduce the "cat" element into the show because that was a massive part of her learning to fight blindly, as well as just a massive reveal of her capabilities.
+Waleed Khan John lost interest in Arya's storyline because he doesn't know (or too shortsighted to figure out) how her training is going to fit into the bigger picture. He seems to forget Arya is still very young at this point and has a kill list still. If she's going to be useful in th egran scheme of things she _needs_ to acquire some new skills. John has a too superficial understandings of the books sometimes or it's been too long since he's read them. I was shocked they didn't even touch upon the succesion in Dorne. They killed the king and his heirand Oberyn's daughters are all bastards.
+Waleed Khan I sort of doubt the whole "Cat" thing is getting into the show. That was foreshadowed heavily in the books in ways that have not made it into the show. I am looking forward to find out though.
Virginia R That's a shame. I know it's been slow but I seriously think her story is being slept on. I have a feeling it'll be really important once (if) she gets back to Westeros. And yeah I'm very clueless as to what's going to happen in Dorne.
Indigocell I had heard rumors that they filmed some stuff in the riverlands location that looked suspiciously like it involved a wolf pack. It made me wonder whether they were bringing in Nymeria's pack and Arya's dreams. Probably just my wishful thinking though. Regardless, I hope they do some great stuff with Arya.
Waleed Khan If they want to to that, now is the time. It might make sense with the fact she is blind that she becomes more in tune with other senses. That would be cool if you are right.
Didn't Aliser Thorne take a hand of a wight ,that was still moving, to Kingslanding in the books . So he suppose to know the threat of the wight walkers.
people keep talking about how the show surpassed the books. And that applies to some storylines ... not to all though. the show hasn't caught up yet to these storylines: Arya Jaime's campaign in the Riverlands (which I'm assuming is happening this season, if I'm interpreting the things I saw in the trailer correctly) the entire Ironborn plotline with Yara and the introduction of Euron 'Crows Eye' Greyjoy (I'm assuming they're cutting Victarion and fill his role with Yara) the whole Kevan Lannister and Pycelle thing plus, we'll be seing some Tower of Joy action and since Thoros of Myr will be back this season, I'm hoping for some Stoneheart action PS: thanks for not putting the picture of Old Mel in the thumbnail.
Apparently John was the only book reader surprised by Mel being older than she appeared. In A Dance with Dragons it's heavily hinted at that she's unnaturally old and it was sort of an unconfirmed fact in the ASOIAF community.
+BucketheadChuck I thought Jon was referencing that he was surprised not at how old Mel is, because everyone knew that already, but about the role of the necklace in Mel's appearance. He talked about how the necklace had been mentioned in the book a bunch of times but he didn't pick up the significance and the show seemed to confirm how it's integral to her magic.
Ben has been playing the "I'm cooler than nerds for not knowing the names" card for years, every time a comic book or fantasy show or movie is released in fact. It's true that people knowing the names isn't what makes the show good. But it's also true that Ben isn't cooler for not knowing the names. He is cooler than most people for a number of reasons, including hair, but not because of not knowing names. I never saw Ben as someone who had to prove coolness because his coolness was self-evident but he keeps playing the same card over and over so it makes me think he has to prove it to himself.
YES!!!! No Cenk or Anna. I will never forgive them for ruining the review for Hardhome, last year. Just keep doing it with these three, all season long
+Trav _ Actually, I think Cenk's layman (for lack of a better word) style actually grounds things. And things that some people forgive for pretentious reasons, he just calls out. Like the lack of logic on Mance's part in just attacking again and killing the remaining four twats guarding the wall instead of entertaining Jon. And here, he would've said "A bit disappointing after all that build up. And Daenerys again just says who she is and gets out of trouble." And to be fair, Hardhome did have a lot of cheesy zombie feels to it.
SinisterSkyline Ben is a layman who grounds things too. Except Ben doesn't waste time treating weird, inane nitpicks, like major issues and then spend half the review going on and on about them, like Cenk does. Cenk derails interesting conversation with unimportant details FAR too often
***** In reviews nitpicking is great. And for fuck sake, isn't Ben the one who always digresses from what they're talking about to talk about how weird the names are? Come on, man.
SinisterSkyline Ben will do that, but it's usually just joking around that lasts 12 seconds or so. What I'm referring to with Cenk are things that go on and on, and really take away from the discussion
DarkLordLink He's not the only reason but I enjoy how he and Ben play off each other. He's often wrong in his guesses but I love his enthusiasm for the story.
I think you got the end scene completely wrong ... the idea for me was that "I give up, its all wrong, I cant do anything". Ideal for end of a episode ... because the next episode she will got it right and start do something.
He's not as bad as he usually is but the extent to which Ben goes to subtly make fun of GoT and the books and point out that it's "too nerdy" for him to care about is getting really annoying. Why constantly review it? Come on, Ben. Relax.
+Machistador I'm sure he's just joking lol. Poking fun to cover for the fact that he can't remember names very well. People with shit memories like to do that.
Melisandre won't bring back Jon and taint him with her dark powers. She will try, and fail. Jon will raise from his funeral pyre, reborn, as true Targarynen.
+Robert Tauzer Maybe he won't be tainted by death because Mel is more powerful, because Mel's powers are more powerful at the Wall, and maybe because Jon had warged into Ghost, as well as it was his first time to be revived.
+mrspidey80 Dude, there are no surviving Martells in the show. War for Oberyn's bastard daughters? Ah... why? If that's not random than I don't know what is. If logic were still in play, whatever noble house has the next most power in Dorne would simply take over at this point and that'll be done.
Hey Ben, loved the mayor of Baltimore comment. I watch The Wire the first time this winter and when Aidan Gillen entered the show I was hyped! Can't wait for his return in season 6
+alex johnson Actors, writers, and producers "confirm" stuff all the time. It could just be a misdirection. Nonetheless, I think he is dead. I just don't trust anything people involved in a tv series have to say about it. The Walking Dead has ruined me for that.
Also the thing about Roose and why Ramsay is afraid of him, apart from wanting his approval, is that he knows roose is capable of the same kind of horrible acts he does, we had a bit of that in the scene they talk about Ramsay's mother, but roose is able to do them in a more cold even calculated way, he is as much of a psychopath but a lot more effective because he acts with a bigger degree of logic and detachment.
I love that they kept the set up and didn't try anything new like the last season with the four sitting facing each other... that was crap. Great review, best reviewrs of this show on the internet by far.
The Trystane part made no sense. Both that the sand snakes got on to the ship and killed him like nothing. But also from a story perspective, why would you kill him? Surely having Trystane in King's Landing would have been interesting. Him finding out that Myrcella got poisoned and his father being killed. It would have set up another revenge plot against Ellaria and the sand snakes. And also it world have made him the prince of Dorne, but with his own kingdom taken from him. I mean a Prince banished from his country, stuck with the Lannisters who the only thing he have in common with is their love for Myrcella, while Ellaria is probably going gonna march an army up there, surely they could have done something with that plot? For me, the Dorne plot is now kind of boring. They gave us new characters, but I feel they have killed all the interesting people from Dorne now. Ellaria and the sand sankes was the most boring part of Dorne, and now that is all we have left.
+ybra They just wanted to let everyone know that they are done with the Dorne story line from the books I guess. I mean it felt a bit cheap to me, but they're just like "we're done with these fuckers"
I think it's really just a case of not knowing how much time they would have to do these additional plotlines. They needed to have Dorne in place so they could fill up season 7 and 8, but now that they won't be doing full seasons they ended up cutting that story short. I think they also want the threat of Dorne to be a sort of wildcard. With Doran in power Dorne wasn't a threat. Now they are a threat and they are a threat that can weaken the Lannister army or perhaps even add to it. Imagine they send an army to Kings Landing only to find them fighting against an army of undead.
lol I really didn't think they could fuck up the Dorne plot any further than last seasons debacle, but how wrong was I. Lets avenge Oberyn by murdering his last surviving brother and nephew, apparently extinguishing the entire Martell family. WTF. Brilliant!
I wonder if everyone's forgotten that no one has any money anymore, except maybe the Tyrells and the Dorne people. The Iron Bank just lost a ton of money betting on Stannis and the Lannisters aren't paying them back ( in the books anyway) and the Lannisters ran out of gold mines. So they might be up to something too.
So the Sand Snakes. They want revenge against the Lannisters for killing their aunt Elia, their father Oberyn, and their nephews Aegon and Rhaella. So to do that, they murder their uncle Doran and their nephew Trystane? WHAT THE FLYING FUCK. That is SOOOOOOOO dumb! What makes it worse is that I can guarantee that this won't happen in the books (Doran and Trystane might die, but not by the sand snakes' hands). In the books, the Sand Snakes are working /with/ Doran to get revenge against the Lannisters. And the leader of the sand snakes is Doran's daughter, Arrianne. Arrianne would never murder her own father and brother in order to get revenge against the people who murdered her aunt, uncle and nephews.
re: Dorne and Doran being cut short. They've already cut Arianne, Aegon, Quentyn, 95% of Areo Hotah, etc. I suspect that whatever is left of the Dornish master plan will fall to Ellaria to execute. So I think we'll get (what's left of) the material, it will just be Ellaria executing.
I think they totally missed the point on Dorne. Prince Doran was playing the long game, not reacting emotionally like Ellaria and the sand snakes. I think D&D totally ruined the whole Dorne storyline; I have no interest in the sand snakes. It really is a shame, I was looking forward to see what Prince Doran was planning and observing that plan unveil.
I don't think that its the necklace making Melissandre younger. Back in season 2 or 3, she was in a convo with the wife to Stannis and she was completely naked without the necklace also and yet she still looked young.
how did sand snake get on the ship to kill the prince? is there a speed boat services at Dorn? last we saw they were at the dock. did they get dropped off by a helicopter? do they know how to do teleportation? how the hack did they get on board the ship? didn't anyone see them when they got on a moving vessel? Were they trained by US Navy Seals? Are the sand snakes trained by Dolphin so they could swim really really fast?
+Ray Chu Those were not the same hounds as the attack hounds. They are called bloodhounds and can sniff out odors better than any dog. Not much fight in those I imagine.
I'm so fucking pissed at the Dorne storyline. I can understand that they had to move the storyline to this point because they cut out the crucial Dornish characters but it's still a fucking waste. It made the entire storyline of last season useless (on top of being bad) and it just doesn't do anything for the plot now. We now get to spend more time with bad characters, bad actors and bad writing (You're such a bitch! I was surprised they didn't drop a like in there) and what for? Ellaria has nobody to contend with in Dorne. Who's going to speak against her? Nobody, because there's nobody left. How the hell did Obara and whip Snake get on Trystane's boat? Why wasn't Trystane held prisoner (friendly or aggressively) by Jaime? It's all a mess, it all serves no purpose except for a bland revenge plot and I'm genuinely pissed off that I'll have to sit through an entire season of Dornish crap. Literally nobody liked Dorne last season. So what do Benioff and Weiss do? Put more focus on all the shit that was there instead of utilizing a great actor like Siddig. What a piece of shit.
+fakei macfake The two Sand Snakes could have easily left shortly after Jaime and co left and gotten there at the same time. We just didn't see that happen so it would all be a surprise. It's a Dornish boat so Jaime wouldn't have been able to take Trystane prisoner. My problem with it is that if Ellaria can pull off this coup and all the guards are willing to go along with it then why did they go through the whole thing last season of trying to kidnap Myrcella and then let Jaime Lannister get on a boat and go home. She could have just done it before they left and killed Jaime too. Why wait until he gets the message about Myrcella? What if he'd gotten it when she wasn't standing right there?
+RyoCaliente Plus the plot that was set up for Dorne in the books has so much more potential then this one. It wasn't like they completely diverged from it to stay close to the book plot. Instead of having Doran reveal that he is a chess master strategist and set all the sand snakes into motion in an intelligent way they instead kill him off. Now you just have all the vengeful reckless sand snakes planning to go to all out war.
They touch on a good point about Dorne. Whenever a character shows mercy to the wrong people they end up dead. That is Game of Thrones. Like when Ned gave Cersei a chance to leave Kings Landing = Ned gets killed.. Same thing happened with Doran and he let them go = ends up dead.
What's interesting about the Dorne developments, is how they're the complete opposite of what happens in the books. Here Doran is oblivious and too trusting and "weak", but in the books he knows what he's doing. He has spies in King's Landing. He's completely aware of the tensions among his people, so much so that he has the foresight to preemptively lock the Sand Snakes up when news about Oberyn's death reaches Dorne, so that they can't rile the people up like he knew they would. Then once things calm down, he gets everyone together and he's like "Hey dum-dums, I want revenge too, but Dorne can't survive open war, so we have to do this smart," and then he gives them all jobs and they hatch a plan. I'm really interested to see why the show went the route it did, besides obviously wanting to simplify things to make some of the work easier. Hopefully they don't disappoint.
I truly love Jon's insights in all these reviews:
-he read the books giving him some extra important knowledge
-he never spoiled anything book related
-he has good comments
-yet he remains objective and isn't a blind book lover, show hater
THEY KILLED MY LOVER'S SISTER, NIECE AND NEPHEW!
LET ME AVENGE THEM BY KILLING MY LOVER'S BROTHER AND OTHER NEPHEW!
+PurpleBadger Hilarious!!
+PurpleBadger everybody complained about Dorne last season and what do they do? Kill off the only characaters remptely interesting and relevant and leave us with the shitty ones. GG Dave and Dan, GG.
+Virginia R hopefully they're washing their hands of the place and we won't have to watch that shitty storyline anymore
I didn't have a problem with the assassinations. She sees Doran as a traitor - for failing to avenge Oberyn (who she really cared about, moreso than Elia and her baby) Doran has betrayed Oberyn and Dorne in her eyes. That makes him fair game. Her motives mirror those of the Night's Watch who turned against Jon. The same thing happening in the North is happening in the South.
But yeah, it's obvious that they realized that the Dorne plot has been poorly handled, and so they're pruning it as rapidly as possible.
Exactly... Dumb bitches! I don't like where this is going. This is a coup.
They should just wait until Cenk is available to film the review for the week. They're missing something without his enthusiasm and wild speculation.
I think on a thematic level what we're supposed to get out of the Melisandre scene is that she is at her most vulnerable right now. She is losing her faith and she is depressed, and she is confronting her true self. She's on the edge of giving up.
+Sofia A That is pretty much what I took out of this scene. To me this was not a regular occurrence and was her basicly giving up. It was as though Melisandre was thinking that everything is simply a lie or an illusion and that she was ready to have death take her.
+Xanthus OMG Imagine we get to the next episode and she is dead! :-O
Bridget Whelan
Highly doubt that is about to happen but I do think that perspective is what they were trying to portray.
I thought she was letting herself die
Xanthus Agreed. I actually really loved that scene, and I thought it was beautifully shot. And oddly enough, I'm actually glad that they showed her naked elderly body. I thought it just made it all the more powerful just how naked she feels (literally and figuratively). And frankly, to me nudity doesn't have to be sexualized. So it kind of annoys me that other people's reactions have been "Ugh! She was hot one second, and then the other second she's not hot! How am I supposed jerk off to her now?"
All of Ben's reviews sound like: "The guy with the thing from season two who did that thing to the girl from the place with the thing."
Lmao sooo true it gets to me
And then he insults of Jon for trying to clarify who he's talking about
+Tal Moore his notes say, next bullet point: "what's that guy Richard did something"
A man cannot wait another six days for episode 2. A man must watch sooner.
👍 here here
+Matt Beckman Just so.
"Let's avenge Oberyn by murdering his entire family!" Guuuuuh
+Walker Higgins "We don't hurt little girls in Dorne" Oberyn Martell
"Why don't we commemorate Oberyn by killing one little girl, his brother and nephew?" Ellaria Sand
they destroyed that whole storyline
+Amanda Lynn I don't think so. They were trying to get Doran to act on their behalf. When he refused, they had to kill him to get him out of the way. They killed Myrcella to try and stir the pot. They killed Trystane to remove him from the line of succession because he, like Doran, was a weak man. Ellaria is blood-thirsty and wants revenge. She'll do whatever it takes to get it, and her primary desire to war with the Lannisters.
+Amanda Lynn I think that was the point of this episode.
+Walker Higgins stupid writers they ruin House Martell one the best of houses in Westreos.
The reveal wasn't about showing her powerful magic, it was about showing her feeling disbelief, like she had been cheated all along and her visions were false. She had her necklace off in other scenes in the past (like in a bathtub) and maintained her glamour, but now...she said she felt the heat leave her body, and her disbelief is having an influence on her magic in a negative way.
+Rick I truly think she wasn't TRULY serving The Lord of Light.. it seemed as though, she had her own agenda. But yeah, it's one of the reasons why I didn't like this episode. Cause it made me feel sorry for her.. I hated that.
Although, I just realized now, that her visions may in fact be true..and Stannis is alive and hiding out in Winterfell. Like she predicted.
+David Μυρμιδόνες Nah
platfish Hahahaha, yeah.. it's a stretch I know; but eh, I'm an optimist. ^_^
David Μυρμιδόνες I also want Stannis to be alive ;(
+Rick Melisaggy poured a potion into the tub that she was submerged in already..Selyse even hands it to her.
Yes! I've been waiting all day for this
What a waste of Doran and Hotah. They were the only part of the Dorne storyline I didn't think the writers botched, and then they go and kill them in a really contrived and implausible coup. Really, Doran's support in Dorne was so weak Ellaria could convince his own guards to betray him without being found out? Dorne is supposed to be pissed because _Martells_ keep getting slaughtered, why would they support killing more Martells? Just does not make sense to me.
+Fangtorn
Yeah and Dorne is liberal, but why should the other Lords support a non noble woman and few bastard daughters? In the Books they would probably send and armie to Sunspear execute them all and make an Ironwood or so the new head family.
+IIBizzy Everything you said is right Ellaira Sand is a Noble woman she born to Lord Uller, but she is bastard. She have no rights to rule Dorne, but her children may have slim chance if all Trueborns (MARTELL) dies in a battle or sickness but this Kinslaying in coup d'état there is no way Dorne's Vassal would approval this.
We did need to see that scene with Melisandre. That reminder of Melisandre as "powerful", disrobing fully and revealing her true self, not only was a reminder of magic, but also was MELISANDRE GIVING UP. She becomes her true self and decides to lie in bed. The people she believed wholeheartedly would win the fight for the dawn, Stannis, Jon, are dead. Melisandre was so confident Stannis was the man in the flames, then that it was Jon in the flames, them being dead makes Melisandre completely hopeless.
What does she have left to fight for? What's the point of her "keeping appearances" if they're doomed? Melisandre has given up, and removing her necklace is a sign of that.
+Maria Jose Rodriguez I agree. It wasn't the necklace that magically kept her beauty. It was just a metaphor.
+MacX1985 If you watch the scene again, you can see the jewel part of the necklace dim as Melisandre removes it. It seems magical/might be magical, but I think the power comes from Melisandre and now that she's lost faith in the Red God, her magic/faith/power is, as you said a metaphor, gone.
When is Ben going to stop pretending he's too cool to remember the names?
+Nyctohylophiliac I can't stand when Ben reviews the show. He makes sure to go out of his way to let the viewers know he's above it. So don't review it. Go watch The Newsroom for the millionth time, Ben. It's just so obnoxious and annoying and doesn't contribute to discussion whatsoever.
+Machistador Hey if Ben really believes in democracy then maybe he will go away if we all tell him to get the fuck out.
''I'd like some mutton'' is a brilliant line. Not only did it serve to convince Alliser and his gang that Davos actually believed they were going to let them go but their hesitation at his words completely exposed their true intentions that they were not going to let Davos and co. go.
If they were to let them go in such harsh conditions (this is just tip of the winter) they'd have to give them food, horses and other resources for them not to die in the first place. Brilliant.
"Nudity is good only when it titillates me". That's basically what Ben is saying. Which reinforces what is often given as a criticism of nudity, that it is only there to titillate. And then you'd have self-proclaimed "liberal" people like Ben saying that it is not and that it's purpose is this or that blah blah blah. Ben get your head straight. Also, I like saying titillate. Titillate.
+chuvzzz Ben is a closet Republican if I ever seen one.
+Great Owl It's republican to like nude scenes for sexiness?
Epicenter It's a well established fact. Democrats are only supposed to like nudity if it's protesting or promoting something. (boners excluded)
Great Owl
Lol that's dumb
+chuvzzz That's not what he's saying, you got it backwards. He was saying that at first he thought the nudity was gratuitous because he thought it served no purpose until we saw her morph into the old woman, then he came to understand the purpose behind the scene.
Been looking forward to these all year again!
Arya was the best swordsman at Winterfell at the age of seven? Whatever Ben was smoking while watching Season One, I want some.
+SockPuppet80 Haha - I love Ben, but he just gets some things so wrong sometimes! Ayra was a hopeless swordsman (woman?) at Winterfell!
+SockPuppet80 I just... I'm gonna need him to sit out the rest of these reviews. He has no idea what he is talking about.
+Boobalopbop No way. You need the guy who hasnt read the books and is thrilled by the beauty of show.
Maybe she was the best in all of winter fell of women who's last name was stark.
+John R So she was better than Sansa... Aswome..
Oh God. It seems no one gets that melisandre is extremely depressed about the situation. Her faith is crumbling down in front of her face after being a fanatic for so long. She thinks her visions are all wrong. Stannis lost even after burning shireen, she has a vision of Jon battling in winterfell and he dies the next minute. She took the necklace because she is seriously questioning her faith.
It's obvious to anyone that is paying attention. It's not so obvious to people that just want to make RUclips videos.
+Raquel Costa Yeah, that's what I thought too. I know that Jon Snow is coming back, but for that instant I lost a little bit of hope, because of how she had given up.
"Did we need to know that?" WTF, are you serious?
lol WTF indeed.
+Matt Stevens (1783pictures) Yeah, I don't care for some of Matt's opinions. Don't forget that this is the same genius who didn't get Interstellar.
+timsnuck2 it sucked ass!!
+timsnuck2 I love nolan movies but that one was clearly a passion project and not something many directors would get money to make cause it is really slow and drags on. I like it more when he tells stories about the human mind. That is why fex his joker idea was so brilliant but why bane was fun but not really that interesting especially since while bvs has major problems batman can beat the living shit out of people and do it as well and better than daredevil. While they should have done the riddler instead and lean in more towards the detective route even though bale's batman isn't " bat-god who knows everything sherlock style. And I've seen more than batman movies just easier to make comparison with
Bacbi It was an attempt to be Andrei Tarkovsky's philosophical sci-fi drama style and failing at it.
When he said "Eric Bana Jr" I literally laughed out loud
Nice...but miss Cenk. It's not the same without him.
+TheMoonatDawn its actually good without him
you guys are the best when it comes down to breaking these episodes down!
I missed these guys talking about Game of Thrones
Doran had a master plan!!! D&D say they don't have enough material to make seasons 7 and 8 10 episodes long, but if they would stop cutting corners and trying to push an unnecessary female power agenda, they would have more than enough material. The Dornish Masterplan is one of the most interesting and important storylines in the books and they just threw it out the window.
+Dasaun McClinton I agree with everything you said but the part about female power agenda this push by Arya, Briennce Tarth, Cathy Stark, Sansa Stark by stay quiet in King Lannding, The Red Woman, Yrgitte, Yara Greyjoy etc SandSnakes this is not feminism this is cold blooded murder simple Kinslaying.
+Dasaun McClinton
They deliberately screwed the Dornish storyline in my opinion (Dan & Dave) They just wanted to trim the fat and couldn't care less about the most compelling storyline in "A Feast for Crows". I could have written something special for House Martell this season when I was still in high school
Sophia Wilson That's my point. There's already plenty of powerful women on this show, so I don't understand why they would sacrifice such a great storyline for yet another one. It isn't even well written.
I agree with all of the theory that Jon will be different when he comes back. I think most importantly if he comes back he should be free of his Night''s Watch Oath.* He has fulfilled that oath. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory..." You don't have to die twice and he's now free to do all the things that were not allowed before. Melisande saw Jon in the flames at Winterfell... there's still time for that and now that Jon isn't bound by his oath he could return to defend his home and after Sansa tells Jon what the Bolton's did to her and on top of the Bolton's earlier betrayal, he's going to want to burn them all alive.
"You don't need to see an old woman's nudity". Well, guess what, you will, soon enough, so get prepared and give respect. That hate at old folks' bodies I swear.
Here it is guys:
Jon is a Targaryan, his mother is Lyanna Stark and his father was Raegar. They were in love, she wasn't kidnapped. Ned took him in (he made a promise to his sister before she died, no one knows what it is) and he said to Jon before he left for the wall "Next time I see you, we'll talk about your mother."
Jon is going to come back, reborn as Jon Targaryan, uniting the North and the South. Also, he is free of his obligations to the Night's Watch because it is an oath taken until death, he died. Bran will be involved in his resurrection.
Sansa and Theon will make it to The Wall, meet up with Jon/Bran and then the topic of Arya will come up. Brienne will say that she is across the narrow sea, and Jon will want to go rescue her. They may also decide to meet up with Dany at this point.
Theon will contact his sister, and the Greyjoys will help them sail to Essos (masters of the sea). They'll find Arya, meet up with Dany's squad, and the Greyjoys will help them all come back....with a Dothraki hoard.
Shit hits the fan.
I want to believe 😭
I believed that Ellaria would go crazy right after Oberyn's death, but since then she seems pretty normal. These scenes with her and Doran were weak. The sand snakes are terribly uninteresting and their thirst for revenge isn't really justified. Oberyn screwed himself, and if Ellaria is crazy with grief then they are not selling it at this point. She should not have been so calm and matter of fact when she killed Doran. She should be going off the rails screaming and crying. The big dude should have died in a way that indicated an extremely painful but fast acting poison was used. Then while Doran watches in horror, Ellaria jumps on him like a banshee and slices him to shreds. That I would have believed! There's no passion or emotion in any of these deaths. And why would all the other guards just stand around like it was no big deal? Doran only had 1 loyal guard? I guess they were paid off, because there's no way you can convince me that the Dornish people still care about a princess who was killed 20 years ago, or a prince who died in a trial by combat against the Mountain. Killing the young Trystane just seemed very wasteful, and again it was done without any kind of emotional significance.
Exactly! And Tristain was so stupid to turn his back! Terribly weak scenes. Oberyn would not have wanted his family slaughtered.
yea it seem totally rush and some sort of bullshit that just leaves huge plot holes. They problaly wont be seeing much of dorn now.
Kit's performance was actually kind of stiff in this episode.
+BrettFromKolob I see what you did there :)
I watch Game of Thrones with a NYC neighbor who doesn't talk about the show after the episode. If I bring up a few plot turns, that person just looks at me and lets me talk, but doesn't join in, so I LOVE these guys, especially Ben (for his insights and humor). You are providing a service, guys. :) Welcome back!
Don't know why everybody keeps wanting Stannis to be alive. He's definitely dead. The Boltons found his body and Roose even considered given a reward to whoever struck the killing blow. Storywise Brienne could not have let him live. He killed Renly whom she loved as more than a lover, and in her mind was executing Stannis on behalf of the Seven Kingdom's laws (and her vengeance).
+kwanarchive He's probably dead but I still want him to be alive.
Exactly
+Debbie Clark agree with kwanarchive comment, not Kent Man,
+Frenzy786 They didn't show them finding a body. But the way they were talking they clearly went out (or sent a follow up searching party) and saw it. Don't be hostile, fuckface.
Come on. Matt. Okay, so let's think this through. In order to get revenge for Oberyn's sister, and Oberyn's death himself, I am going to kill his brother, and his nephew, and an innocent girl (even though Oberyn was clearly opposed to that). It makes no sense at all. Furthermore, it's not as if he was assassinated, he was showboating and got himself killed in an honorable duel.
It also makes no sense that many of Doran's vassals would accept a bunch of "bastard" women take over in a violent coup. This is all just a convoluted way of making the rebellion happen to make up for the loss of characters that have been cut. It could have been handled better, I just have to suspend my disbelief I suppose.
+Indigocell Her hate and desire for revenge consumed her until she became someone Oberyn would hate. She is like a Jedi that turns Sith for good intentions but becomes the very evil she tried to destroy.
+Indigocell yeah it's kinda annoying, oberyn would be very ashamed of the sand snakes
+Indigocell Dorne should have just been cut completely. It was illogical, characterizations were all over the place, it was just a mess.
+Indigocell Yeah I haven't read the books and I have to agree with you; the Dorne storyline so far just makes no sense. I honestly expected her to turn around and have to face the guards, but no, for some reason they didn't attack. They've also clearly cut corners and not shown us the actual cities, the people on the ground so to speak, so we have no idea if they are happy with their leader... and I imagine they would be, since it's a relatively peaceful land, I think?? Also, thanks for not going off about a "feminist agenda" blah blah blah just because this bit of bad writing happens to include women being bad ass lol So many of these YT comments are making me roll my eyes.
+Bridget Whelan What's particularly annoying about the show's Dorne is that Doran is respected (if not loved) by the Dornish in the books and Ellaria (of all people) would NEVER pull what she did in the show. I'm kind of appalled tbh.
YESSSSSS been looking forward to this since the episode came out
So much fun watching this as I rewatch my favorite show of all time!
much prefer the panels with Cenk and Ana. Only they match Jon's enthusiasm for the show.
+JordanMGR cenk is terrible
THE WTF GOT REVIEWS ARE BACK!!!!!!!! :) My weeks would be incomplete without these haha.
I loved the discussion, but Roose specifically asks Ramsay who killed Stannis. Stannis is dead.
+Robby R Agreed. I took that conversation to be specifically intended to explain that Stannis is dead, that they had found his body but no one knew who killed him.
If they hadn't found his body, Roose wouldn't have have been speaking to Ramsey like it was a settled fact that Stannis died and wanted only to know who had killed him.
Meli being revealed as ancient and *still* being surprised when she learned of Thoros' ability to resurrect people *should* be a clear indication that we'll get some sort of Red-God-fueled resurrection in the future.
That reveal makes her scenes with the Brotherhood back in season 3 even more important and I'm even more convinced now that it was a setup for something that's still ahead. Also: Remember how she told Arya that they "would meet again"? I wonder if *that* one is going to come true and under what circumstances...
When will episode 2 review be up?
after it airs num nuts
Margaery is under arrest for lying about her brother's buggery even though Loras hasn't been tried and proven guilty of it yet. Anybody see a problem with that? She's being held even though the Faith hasn't proven a crime has even been committed. If somebody bothered to point that out, considering the smallfolk love Margaery, nobody would raise much fuss if the King stormed the Sept to get her.
You guys are great and entertaining, but I swear, I often feel like there's no way John and Matt read the books lol
You guys may be correct, but I took the scene with Melisandre completely differently. I don't imagine she removes the necklace every night. I saw it as symbolic that she's lost her faith, and so why bother with the illusion anymore? There have been scenes in earlier seasons where she hasn't been wearing the necklace. So I don't think the necklace is specifically tied to her illusion, I think there are probably different ways to maintain it (ie the potions we see when Stannis's wife visits her and she's bathing). The necklace, to me, was just sort of the last remnant she had of her belief in the red god's power, and by removing it, showed how deep her crisis of faith has gone. That's why I think Jon's return, however it happens, will be the thing that reaffirms her faith.
good comment, you can see her faith being shaken in the season before, when stannis gets bad news, and later again when she realizes Jon is dead, even though she thought he would play a big role. Also why take like 5 min for the scene if you just want to show what the power of the necklace is. You might be onto something.
I don't think GRRM intended Jon's death and resurrection to be that much of a surprise, even if it is too big to be hidden anyway. The event itself, and its consequences, are so huge that it doesn't need to be.
you can tell who likes the show and who watches it because it is their job.
+Alex Huen They all seemed interested, dont you talk bad about my favorite game of thrones review show
+Alex Huen what are you talking about
+Alex Huen Matt and John seem invested, Ben (the guy on the left) doesn't even remember the names of Jorah and Doran, he also didn't remember she got blinded, wtf?
that's who I was talking about. The guy in the glasses can't remember any names.
Alex Huen i think hes just old hahahha it doesnt mean he doesnt enjoy the show
The Brienne fight was great apart from the dogs and the handler suddenly vanishing. Although it's possible that the handler will reappear in the next episode to tell the Boltons what happened, maybe they could have shown them running off into the woods.
The fight itself was awesome. Repeated clashing swords on horseback is an unrealistic Hollywood movie thing - it's simply too awkward for that. They come together, collide and then come around again if they aren't unhorsed/dead.
Side note: people seem to find Brienne and Pod boring for some reason. I love them together - two of the few truly noble characters on the show. Brienne is a true knight, and Pod is a true squire.
Where's Cenk?
+Leo In Florida apparently?
He's hosting a debate today
Shame, Wish I knew how he felt about the episode. Until Next time i guess.
+Leo Go to the what the flick Facebook page, Cenk has his reaction video there.
Uzumaki Naruto Thanks for the tip.
best GoT aftershow, and love this particular trio. perfect Ballance of intellect, critique, and nerdiness.
I'd say there are a total of 2 fans who like the Dorne storyline. Seriously did D&D not listen? They killed the only character the fans didn't hate in that arc.
+jrsam21 it's game of thrones :)
Glad to have these reviews back! Looking forward to next weeks.
Arya is being trained to become a faceless man. If she refuses to let go of Arya Stark (by holding onto her past grudges and possesions), she can wear a face but she cannot truly be faceless.
Jorah should give Daario greyscale.
Yessss! I think Daario is the leader of the Harpies.
+Chelsea_ Pitbullm0m What about.... Varys?
I don't get how the sand snakes got access to Trystane. If he was on the boat to King's Landing when Myrcella died, it seems like Cersei or Jamie would want to keep him as a hostage rather than just send him back to Dorne. But if he is still in a small boat at King's Landing (why?), how did the sand snakes get to King's Landing, board the boat and get access to him?
+Darewin Ocampo If Jaime realized that they killed his daughter, hes not going to send Trystane back to them, for sure. Hed want to keep him hostage at the very least. The sand snakes being with him literally made no sense...
+CaptainHappen Seriously! I didn't catch that myself, but that's totally right. My memory wasn't that sharp. There's no way Jamie would send Trystane back. I remember wondering if he'd kill him on the boat at the end of last season. Assuming he decided not to, he most certainly would have taken him hostage after the Martell family apparently poisons Marcella, murdering her right in front of him.
+Darewin Ocampo Jamie knew that Doran and Trystane had nothing to do with kill of Mycrella it in the note that he send to Prince Doran.
As I understood it: Using the 'faces' without being 'ready' has side effects. So the blindness isn't punishment for killing the wrong guy. It's a direct consequence of wearing a face before being ready.
+Bjottis That's not the case in the books tho so it's debatable. It could still be a punishment since doing things like using the mask without earning that privilige first is heavily frowned upon.
Cenk???? Where is Cenk???!??!?!!
Yes he must be there!!!
+Kenpachi Zaraki he was in florida to co-host the senatorial debate.
Nice job, guys! You are my favorite place to get after-show discussion! Always well done. No one brought up the fact that Tristayne seemed to be in the wrong place or else the sand snakes took a very fast ship to Tristayne's ship.... didn't he go with Jaime? He seemed to know Marcella was dead---was painting her eyes on rocks.... so where did this take place?
As much as John knows about the books, it's kind of weird that he doesn't remember Arya's story line. Last season, he thought that it ended when she was shown the hall of faces. I didn't read the books until after season 5 so I was kind of surprised that there is some very important Arya material that hasn't been done, both from DwD and the preview from WoW. I wonder whether they're going to introduce the "cat" element into the show because that was a massive part of her learning to fight blindly, as well as just a massive reveal of her capabilities.
+Waleed Khan John lost interest in Arya's storyline because he doesn't know (or too shortsighted to figure out) how her training is going to fit into the bigger picture. He seems to forget Arya is still very young at this point and has a kill list still. If she's going to be useful in th egran scheme of things she _needs_ to acquire some new skills.
John has a too superficial understandings of the books sometimes or it's been too long since he's read them. I was shocked they didn't even touch upon the succesion in Dorne. They killed the king and his heirand Oberyn's daughters are all bastards.
+Waleed Khan I sort of doubt the whole "Cat" thing is getting into the show. That was foreshadowed heavily in the books in ways that have not made it into the show. I am looking forward to find out though.
Virginia R That's a shame. I know it's been slow but I seriously think her story is being slept on. I have a feeling it'll be really important once (if) she gets back to Westeros. And yeah I'm very clueless as to what's going to happen in Dorne.
Indigocell I had heard rumors that they filmed some stuff in the riverlands location that looked suspiciously like it involved a wolf pack. It made me wonder whether they were bringing in Nymeria's pack and Arya's dreams. Probably just my wishful thinking though. Regardless, I hope they do some great stuff with Arya.
Waleed Khan
If they want to to that, now is the time. It might make sense with the fact she is blind that she becomes more in tune with other senses. That would be cool if you are right.
Didn't Aliser Thorne take a hand of a wight ,that was still moving, to Kingslanding in the books . So he suppose to know the threat of the wight walkers.
people keep talking about how the show surpassed the books. And that applies to some storylines ... not to all though.
the show hasn't caught up yet to these storylines:
Arya
Jaime's campaign in the Riverlands (which I'm assuming is happening this season, if I'm interpreting the things I saw in the trailer correctly)
the entire Ironborn plotline with Yara and the introduction of Euron 'Crows Eye' Greyjoy (I'm assuming they're cutting Victarion and fill his role with Yara)
the whole Kevan Lannister and Pycelle thing
plus, we'll be seing some Tower of Joy action and since Thoros of Myr will be back this season, I'm hoping for some Stoneheart action
PS: thanks for not putting the picture of Old Mel in the thumbnail.
+Ssgt Griggs Has it been announced Thoros is back this season ? i haven't seen anything about that ?
banethesithari the actor said he'd be back this season
***** Oh nice ,can't wait for that.
I love how Ben pretends he doesn't know the names so he can seem "cool". Embrace your geekishness Ben
he isn't pretending. he doesn't take what the flick seriously
Apparently John was the only book reader surprised by Mel being older than she appeared. In A Dance with Dragons it's heavily hinted at that she's unnaturally old and it was sort of an unconfirmed fact in the ASOIAF community.
+BucketheadChuck Sometimes details are forgotten.
+BucketheadChuck I thought Jon was referencing that he was surprised not at how old Mel is, because everyone knew that already, but about the role of the necklace in Mel's appearance. He talked about how the necklace had been mentioned in the book a bunch of times but he didn't pick up the significance and the show seemed to confirm how it's integral to her magic.
Ben has been playing the "I'm cooler than nerds for not knowing the names" card for years, every time a comic book or fantasy show or movie is released in fact. It's true that people knowing the names isn't what makes the show good. But it's also true that Ben isn't cooler for not knowing the names. He is cooler than most people for a number of reasons, including hair, but not because of not knowing names. I never saw Ben as someone who had to prove coolness because his coolness was self-evident but he keeps playing the same card over and over so it makes me think he has to prove it to himself.
YES!!!! No Cenk or Anna. I will never forgive them for ruining the review for Hardhome, last year. Just keep doing it with these three, all season long
+Trav _
We can do without Ana
+Trav _ Actually, I think Cenk's layman (for lack of a better word) style actually grounds things. And things that some people forgive for pretentious reasons, he just calls out. Like the lack of logic on Mance's part in just attacking again and killing the remaining four twats guarding the wall instead of entertaining Jon.
And here, he would've said "A bit disappointing after all that build up. And Daenerys again just says who she is and gets out of trouble."
And to be fair, Hardhome did have a lot of cheesy zombie feels to it.
SinisterSkyline Ben is a layman who grounds things too. Except Ben doesn't waste time treating weird, inane nitpicks, like major issues and then spend half the review going on and on about them, like Cenk does. Cenk derails interesting conversation with unimportant details FAR too often
***** In reviews nitpicking is great. And for fuck sake, isn't Ben the one who always digresses from what they're talking about to talk about how weird the names are?
Come on, man.
SinisterSkyline Ben will do that, but it's usually just joking around that lasts 12 seconds or so. What I'm referring to with Cenk are things that go on and on, and really take away from the discussion
I'm so glad to have my absolute favorite GoT recap group back. Y'all my boys! 😊
No Cenk? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
+Shadowman4710 He's the only reason I watch their GOT videos
he is in Miami doing a debate
DarkLordLink He's not the only reason but I enjoy how he and Ben play off each other. He's often wrong in his guesses but I love his enthusiasm for the story.
+aspurr20 That's no excuse.
+Shadowman4710 FUCKING GAME OF THRONESSSSSS
I know he’ll never see this, but I hope Ben has dropped his jock supremacy gimmick and embraced actually knowing names in game of thrones.
I'm gonna need them to move the Arya storyline a bit quicker too. I'm so ready to see her kick some ass.
+Boobalopbop Uhh... No.
I thought her revealing herself and taking of the necklace was a sign of her losing faith a little bit and how everything with her is sort of fake
+Chris Cleff Interesting theory.
I think you got the end scene completely wrong ... the idea for me was that "I give up, its all wrong, I cant do anything". Ideal for end of a episode ... because the next episode she will got it right and start do something.
He's not as bad as he usually is but the extent to which Ben goes to subtly make fun of GoT and the books and point out that it's "too nerdy" for him to care about is getting really annoying. Why constantly review it? Come on, Ben. Relax.
I agree. Sadly. He adds nothing to these reviews.
+Machistador I'm sure he's just joking lol. Poking fun to cover for the fact that he can't remember names very well. People with shit memories like to do that.
+Waleed Khan Agree, he's just being silly. Besides, acting pretentious is just kind of his M.O. :p
there i was getting the tissues out for another quick wrist action session with the red lady and then....i still came all over the laptop
Ben chiming in with "well, just you" at 1:38 was gold
Melisandre won't bring back Jon and taint him with her dark powers. She will try, and fail. Jon will raise from his funeral pyre, reborn, as true Targarynen.
Yes! I think that's how he'll come back too.
+Robert Tauzer Nope
+Robert Tauzer kek
+Robert Tauzer Maybe he won't be tainted by death because Mel is more powerful, because Mel's powers are more powerful at the Wall, and maybe because Jon had warged into Ghost, as well as it was his first time to be revived.
+Jack I'm actually kinda disappointed now but oh well.
I want better call saul review
same
+rbrtchng Wasn't it good enough for you?
Yes I'm waiting the whole week for Better Call Saul season final review
+Malik Yussuf nah
i know i have been waiting for the season finale review!!
Game of Thrones has almost become a parody of itself. They're just randomly killing characters for some cheap shocks.
Hipster
Was Myrcella a random killing too? Because if Ellaria hadn't killed Doran he would have killed her after finding out Myrcella was murdered.
Yes, Jon Snow's death was random.
+T. Wiggins How is it random? Doran's death paves the way for a war between Dorne and the Lannisters that never would have happened with Doran alive.
+mrspidey80 Dude, there are no surviving Martells in the show. War for Oberyn's bastard daughters? Ah... why? If that's not random than I don't know what is. If logic were still in play, whatever noble house has the next most power in Dorne would simply take over at this point and that'll be done.
I love yours reviews nearly as much as the show itself! Great job guys ;)
So to avenge Oberyn she kills his Brother and Nephew? Yeah I'm sure Oberyn would be pleased about that. Awful writing.
Hey Ben, loved the mayor of Baltimore comment. I watch The Wire the first time this winter and when Aidan Gillen entered the show I was hyped! Can't wait for his return in season 6
"What's his name?" Ben Mankiewics
"those damn wildings!!"
One of the better reviews/recaps of GoT S6-1 I've come across.
Stannis is dead guys, the actor Stephen Dillane has confirmed he's done with the show. And the producers, writers, and director all confirmed it.
+alex johnson Actors, writers, and producers "confirm" stuff all the time. It could just be a misdirection. Nonetheless, I think he is dead. I just don't trust anything people involved in a tv series have to say about it. The Walking Dead has ruined me for that.
+alex johnson JJ suckbrahms also said that Kahn was not in Into Darkness.
+Nick Jermichalesactionjackson Roose and Ramsay talked about Stannis being dead, which means they found his body.
Also the thing about Roose and why Ramsay is afraid of him, apart from wanting his approval, is that he knows roose is capable of the same kind of horrible acts he does, we had a bit of that in the scene they talk about Ramsay's mother, but roose is able to do them in a more cold even calculated way, he is as much of a psychopath but a lot more effective because he acts with a bigger degree of logic and detachment.
I got the impression that the Red Woman was preparing to sacrifice herself to resurrect Jon Snow.
+presterjohn71 That's what was happening, not sure how you could think otherwise, I agree completely and was about to type the same thing :D
I love that they kept the set up and didn't try anything new like the last season with the four sitting facing each other... that was crap.
Great review, best reviewrs of this show on the internet by far.
The Trystane part made no sense. Both that the sand snakes got on to the ship and killed him like nothing. But also from a story perspective, why would you kill him? Surely having Trystane in King's Landing would have been interesting. Him finding out that Myrcella got poisoned and his father being killed.
It would have set up another revenge plot against Ellaria and the sand snakes. And also it world have made him the prince of Dorne, but with his own kingdom taken from him. I mean a Prince banished from his country, stuck with the Lannisters who the only thing he have in common with is their love for Myrcella, while Ellaria is probably going gonna march an army up there, surely they could have done something with that plot?
For me, the Dorne plot is now kind of boring. They gave us new characters, but I feel they have killed all the interesting people from Dorne now. Ellaria and the sand sankes was the most boring part of Dorne, and now that is all we have left.
+ybra They just wanted to let everyone know that they are done with the Dorne story line from the books I guess. I mean it felt a bit cheap to me, but they're just like "we're done with these fuckers"
I think it's really just a case of not knowing how much time they would have to do these additional plotlines. They needed to have Dorne in place so they could fill up season 7 and 8, but now that they won't be doing full seasons they ended up cutting that story short. I think they also want the threat of Dorne to be a sort of wildcard. With Doran in power Dorne wasn't a threat. Now they are a threat and they are a threat that can weaken the Lannister army or perhaps even add to it. Imagine they send an army to Kings Landing only to find them fighting against an army of undead.
+ybra Trystane was the heir to the throne. It is very logical to kill him.
lol I really didn't think they could fuck up the Dorne plot any further than last seasons debacle, but how wrong was I. Lets avenge Oberyn by murdering his last surviving brother and nephew, apparently extinguishing the entire Martell family. WTF. Brilliant!
When is the better call saul finale review being posted?
I wonder if everyone's forgotten that no one has any money anymore, except maybe the Tyrells and the Dorne people. The Iron Bank just lost a ton of money betting on Stannis and the Lannisters aren't paying them back ( in the books anyway) and the Lannisters ran out of gold mines. So they might be up to something too.
+HiDesert004 Vale is not touch by the war (House Arryn)
So the Sand Snakes. They want revenge against the Lannisters for killing their aunt Elia, their father Oberyn, and their nephews Aegon and Rhaella. So to do that, they murder their uncle Doran and their nephew Trystane? WHAT THE FLYING FUCK. That is SOOOOOOOO dumb!
What makes it worse is that I can guarantee that this won't happen in the books (Doran and Trystane might die, but not by the sand snakes' hands). In the books, the Sand Snakes are working /with/ Doran to get revenge against the Lannisters. And the leader of the sand snakes is Doran's daughter, Arrianne. Arrianne would never murder her own father and brother in order to get revenge against the people who murdered her aunt, uncle and nephews.
re: Dorne and Doran being cut short.
They've already cut Arianne, Aegon, Quentyn, 95% of Areo Hotah, etc. I suspect that whatever is left of the Dornish master plan will fall to Ellaria to execute. So I think we'll get (what's left of) the material, it will just be Ellaria executing.
I think they totally missed the point on Dorne. Prince Doran was playing the long game, not reacting emotionally like Ellaria and the sand snakes. I think D&D totally ruined the whole Dorne storyline; I have no interest in the sand snakes. It really is a shame, I was looking forward to see what Prince Doran was planning and observing that plan unveil.
I don't think that its the necklace making Melissandre younger. Back in season 2 or 3, she was in a convo with the wife to Stannis and she was completely naked without the necklace also and yet she still looked young.
Good catch. I can't believe I watched all 7 seasons ages ago without WTF Reviews! I love these ALMOST as much as GOT.
@@shankins88
I was aboard the whole necklace making her younger train but it was in that scene I realised maybe it isnt the necklace after all
how did sand snake get on the ship to kill the prince? is there a speed boat services at Dorn? last we saw they were at the dock. did they get dropped off by a helicopter? do they know how to do teleportation? how the hack did they get on board the ship? didn't anyone see them when they got on a moving vessel? Were they trained by US Navy Seals? Are the sand snakes trained by Dolphin so they could swim really really fast?
+hossain rana They have the same superpowers that Littlefinger has. They can traverse large distances with the snap of a finger.
+electrictwilight haha
John is clearly the most on-point one here. His predictions are more often correct, and he questions the bs and everyone is like 'no it's okay!'
The dogs left, cause there was fresh meat back at the castle.
+Ray Chu Ha
+Ray Chu Those were not the same hounds as the attack hounds. They are called bloodhounds and can sniff out odors better than any dog. Not much fight in those I imagine.
What the Night's Watch did was a Julius Ceaser moment and Thorne is basically Gen. Custer, George loves his history and putting it into his stories.
I'm so fucking pissed at the Dorne storyline. I can understand that they had to move the storyline to this point because they cut out the crucial Dornish characters but it's still a fucking waste. It made the entire storyline of last season useless (on top of being bad) and it just doesn't do anything for the plot now. We now get to spend more time with bad characters, bad actors and bad writing (You're such a bitch! I was surprised they didn't drop a like in there) and what for? Ellaria has nobody to contend with in Dorne. Who's going to speak against her? Nobody, because there's nobody left. How the hell did Obara and whip Snake get on Trystane's boat? Why wasn't Trystane held prisoner (friendly or aggressively) by Jaime? It's all a mess, it all serves no purpose except for a bland revenge plot and I'm genuinely pissed off that I'll have to sit through an entire season of Dornish crap. Literally nobody liked Dorne last season. So what do Benioff and Weiss do? Put more focus on all the shit that was there instead of utilizing a great actor like Siddig. What a piece of shit.
+fakei macfake The two Sand Snakes could have easily left shortly after Jaime and co left and gotten there at the same time. We just didn't see that happen so it would all be a surprise. It's a Dornish boat so Jaime wouldn't have been able to take Trystane prisoner. My problem with it is that if Ellaria can pull off this coup and all the guards are willing to go along with it then why did they go through the whole thing last season of trying to kidnap Myrcella and then let Jaime Lannister get on a boat and go home. She could have just done it before they left and killed Jaime too. Why wait until he gets the message about Myrcella? What if he'd gotten it when she wasn't standing right there?
+RyoCaliente Plus the plot that was set up for Dorne in the books has so much more potential then this one. It wasn't like they completely diverged from it to stay close to the book plot. Instead of having Doran reveal that he is a chess master strategist and set all the sand snakes into motion in an intelligent way they instead kill him off. Now you just have all the vengeful reckless sand snakes planning to go to all out war.
Ive been refreshing your page all day for this!! Wheres Cenk?!?!
Where is CENK ?????
probably getting kicked off a plane or arrested he's busy man.😎
+sevens2 Miami for a TYT debate.
+Alexia Victory he is moderating senate open debate in Florida moron!
They touch on a good point about Dorne. Whenever a character shows mercy to the wrong people they end up dead. That is Game of Thrones. Like when Ned gave Cersei a chance to leave Kings Landing = Ned gets killed.. Same thing happened with Doran and he let them go = ends up dead.
You're looking really good Matt. I'm not even joking.
What's interesting about the Dorne developments, is how they're the complete opposite of what happens in the books. Here Doran is oblivious and too trusting and "weak", but in the books he knows what he's doing. He has spies in King's Landing. He's completely aware of the tensions among his people, so much so that he has the foresight to preemptively lock the Sand Snakes up when news about Oberyn's death reaches Dorne, so that they can't rile the people up like he knew they would. Then once things calm down, he gets everyone together and he's like "Hey dum-dums, I want revenge too, but Dorne can't survive open war, so we have to do this smart," and then he gives them all jobs and they hatch a plan.
I'm really interested to see why the show went the route it did, besides obviously wanting to simplify things to make some of the work easier. Hopefully they don't disappoint.