tierneybeckett I thought I was the only one! It's really fascinating to me, how Cenk can honestly think a young woman who has been abused and humiliated in all but the very worst way possible (for her), surrounded by snakes with no one to look out for her and yet is still alive, is not playing the game somehow (not saying she's a master player - in no way. But she's smart enough - as the Starks go - and visibly getting smarter, now that she actually has room to grow and can show it. Even Tyrion noticed it, and he's not such a bad judge of character. Mind you, I'm biased. I find women like Sansa interesting because they're so rarely represented in their own narratives in fantasy).
Sapphonouveau Oh, no. You're not the only one. Honestly, his opinion of Sansa comes across as kind of misogynistic since it seems to hinge on the fact that she's a teenage girl. There are times, though, when Sansa impresses me more than Arya does. Arya can be reckless sometimes and just spitting out her opinion is something Sansa learned to control pretty quickly in King's Landing. As for this episode, I think she totally believed Brienne. But it won't help her any to go WITH Brienne. Littlefinger can keep her safer. For now. She'd have nowhere to go with Brienne. Except maybe, MAYBE Castle Black. And who knows if they'd get there before any Lannister men or mercenaries found them?
I do think the show is about the Stark kids and I've often wondered about the symbolism of Sansa's wolf being dead. GRRM has been brutal to the Starks but in order for the next generation to come into their own you have to get the old generation out of the way. Think about all the role models he's given to them. Jon has had Ned, Mormont, Halfhand, Mance - all leaders. Arya has had Ned, Yoren, Jaqen, Tywin, Beric, The Hound - all badasses. Sansa has had Tyrion, Cersei, Littlefinger - all players - and Ned and Joffrey as examples of how not to do it. Bran gets Jojen and tree dude to learn his powers. Rickon doesn't get much but he's about 5 in the books. So on the surface it looks like he's been destroying the Starks but really he's been priming the ones he hasn't killed for success. In contrast Tommen had Tywin for about 30 seconds but otherwise the Lannister kids have been pretty much raised exclusively by Cersei, may the seven have mercy on their souls. Except for Joffrey's.
krtwood Personally, I like to think that the entire series, with the exception of the stuff having to do with the wights and the Others, being entirely one giant chess game between Petyr Baelish and Varys. Outside of what happens north of the wall, every single event can be drawn back to a choice made by one or the other.
krtwood Blasphemy! R'hollor (and the other) are the only true gods! Repent, nonbeliever and join the red god of light! For the night is dark and full of terrors!
krtwood I think show is more about politics in simple & intersting terms of fantansy. Remember politics literally mean administration of city and problems & solutions while doing it. It shows various different kinds of politics, politicians, culture, religion, cult, weaponary. I think dragon r analogus to modern fighter planes. white walkes r analogus to epidemic desease or religious terrorists (by the way religious ppl sometimes behave like zombies or white walkers). I dont think show is just about starks, they merely served moving the plot, and shows Westros system is so bad that good guys keep dying. Ppl keep fighting each other. So, it desperately require new/better political system. Its scope is much wider than just stark kids.
Maybe it's hard for them to see the potential in Sansa because they're used to Arya and Dany who are more flashy with their power and assertiveness. Sansa internalizes her resources, I think she has just the same potential to make some serious moves as the other two. You guys are waaaay to harsh on her! As a women in her current position, she would be wise to take the route of Margaery and use her looks and manipulation skills to get power.
Dasaun McClinton You guys know first 4 episodes leaked online ?!?! :) I have found site with all four ! :) Here is the link: plus.google.com/101850631288878922775/posts/fHLmaSSPc91 Enjoy !
Dasaun McClinton *Game of thrones leaked four episodes of season 5* ! ! :):) Watch them for *FREE* here: plus.google.com/101850631288878922775/posts/fHLmaSSPc91 Remember, if you are true GoT fan, you wont spoil episodes ! :) :)
Fuck the Sansa hate, yeesh. She was never an idiot. She was aware of how horrible things were in King's Landing as early as season 2, she just never had a way out because she's a normal, pure hearted girl. She couldn't try to kill her way out like Arya...she's always been finding ways to stay alive, and now that she's out of danger she's going to unleash that Stark fire that she spends most of her time hiding.
The problem with Danaerys is that she completely disregards the culture of the people that she conquers and is trying to replace it with her version of a perfect society. She needs to give them something
Dasaun McClinton To be fair, that whole clusterfuck in Mereen has yet to be concluded in the books. Sometimes the only way to settle things is by fighting it out, regardless of cultural differences. It's gonna be awesome.
evillink1 That's a big fat IF statement. They are already scratching off major plots and characters that happened in the novel. Aegon/young griff will not even be in the tv show.
Brendan Beckett They may have received legitimate press copies of all 4 episodes early. That's how the episodes leaked anyway -- they didn't necessarily pirate them to have watched them early.
Endeavour Studios No it's totally legit, I wasn't implying otherwise. I think they filmed this on the Wednesday before the premiere, days before there were even leaks.
I really hate how unfair everyone is to Sansa. Honestly, I see a lot of potential in her, and she differs from the Starks maybe in a good way that she won't have honor as something to hold her back. I think they underplay how she was only 13 and raised her whole life to be a princess or marry high. She has gone through A LOT and unlike Arya, Jon, and Bran she had to spend the majority of the show with people who hated her and were responsible for her family's death. I genuinely think that after having Littlefinger as a mentor, she could seriously shake some things up.
James Campbell-Laing She reallythinks she's smarter than she is and eventually has to pay for her stupidity. A Feast for Crows is basically her fucking up and paying for it.
Flash Finnigan i'll be honest, i'll felt like cersei was perfectly smart, not super smart mind you, up until feast for crows. i feel like she was borderline disempowered in that book.
sinnerandprejudice Its not that big of a spoiler really cause its obvious in this season that Cersei has nowhere near as much political clout as she did before, now that Tommen is of age and married to Margery. Plus she is very full of herself so she underestimates how cunning Margery is.
Sansa wasn't dumb at all. She was smart to survive in King's Landing that long. She has silly ideas about how the world worked, but that illusion was shattered pretty quickly. Now she's only getting more clever. She's also an INCREDIBLY strong character.
Cenk, go back and watch from season one again. Sansa was never stupid, she acted accordingly to her upbringing and you're judging her actions at the beginning as if she was an adult. Let me remind you all, she didn't even get her period until season 2. She is also quite honorable and compasionate, to the point that she saved Dontos Hollard from being killed and gave all the other ladies the courage to get through the battle of the blackwater. And make no mistake, she loves her siblings and arya loves her. They've grown enough to get past their petty differences. People who refer to this simple, childish sibling rivarly as something deeper are overthinking it. Also keep in mind that rumor has it, Sansa and Tyrion killed Joffrey, so Arya must be loving Sansa right now.
Cenk gettin real tired of your Sansa hate. I know I was in the extreme minority of liking Sansa's character from the beginning (okay fine starting right after Ned's death book and show) Arya's a fighter and Sansa is a thinker. Yes in the beginning she was a spoiled little princess but when shit hit the fan she knew herself enough to know she couldn't fight and she was smart enough to know she wasn't smart enough to think her way out so she made herself made sure she wasn't seen as a threat. Most people would go into a blind rage or dissolved into a state of debilitating depression (both would put her life a risk,one for trying to kill the king, and the other for not being a suitable plaything for him) if they went from her naive existence to having their father and nurse maid excused by their finance and being forced to stare at them endlessly the fact that she never went crazy throughout the mental, physical, and emotional torture says a lot about her. And she's shown a lot of development throughout, she went from just keeping her head down, to subtle manipulation, to more advanced and now she's practically learning from a master, hear me now quote me later Sansa Stark is going to become a Chess Master even if she's not after the throne she gonna be an interesting player.
I agree with you, Sansa is smart... If she wasn't she wouldn't be alive she's also with little finger who is an evil genius.. She will learn and become even smarter.
Cangel Tibon I think Sansa will be insanely important later on in the series. I also like the development over the series. Atleast they no longer have Ana with her feminist bullshit spouting how much she hates Sansa.
Cangel Tibon I think their hatred for Sansa now is more to do with the fact that although she has become smarter, she has had to discard her values and what really made her a Stark, for example they say that Arya would leave at a moments notice for her family whereas Sansa (at the current state) seems like she wouldn't. And cmon, shes not being so smart, anyone with half a brain would have realised Petyr has a thing for her and so she can use him to survive.
Charlie Holdsworth Hey hey I'm a feminist myself, but the point of it should be (and yeah Ana goes way off track) that women are people, they naturally fit into all parts of the spectrum from the docile (Kat and Sansa) to the aggressive (Brienne and Arya). I only fault society when it tries to force an Arya to be a Sansa or a Sam to be a Mountain.
Cangel Tibon I totally agree. I was just glad that it was limited to one person, that person did not bring in the word feminism, and someone defended her position. To go with Brienne (however it's spelt) would have been dumb. It annoys me when "new feminists" get their kniskers in a twist because some women prefer traditional gender roles. More power to women to do whatever the hell they want.
I agree with Cenk; Jon is a Commander, not a Ruler. And regarding the question: I think Janos Slynt got burn't the most, but that's because it was friggin' Sam doing the burning.
OJagg1 yes she is, but Kevan has the power of the Lannister name behind him, Cersei is less respected for her incest, Jaime was super powerful until he lost his hand.With his brother not around Kevan holds the power in Westeros besides Stannis
Booster Gold They do if they are the only surviving child. Its called agnatic-cognatic primogeniture succession. Eldest child, male preferred. I only mentioned it because the show has hasn't traditionally acknowledged female titles holders, other then Dany, and the Kevin's exit speech seemed to suggest he was now the lord in the show.
i'm always a bit surprised when ppl think sansa is not honorable, when i consider her to be the stark child most like ned. it's not that she is dumb and a bad player at the beginning, it's more that she was refusing to play like ned did. she made some risky moves that were to help other people beside herself. she spoke up to save ser dontos and she also told the tyrells how awful joffrey was, which was a noble move as she was afraid that if they knew how awful he was, she herself would again have to marry him. she decided though that she couldn't let margaery go into it without knowing, even though she didn't know her at all then.
hermyclone12 I think they meant that this season, along with her new stoic way of speaking (which i find really awkward and insincere) she seems to have changed dramatically from who she was (e.g. as you said, her doing these nice things), in such a short time. The old Sansa wouldn't have let littlefinger order the death of Brienne, but now Sansa (although she may seem more cunning and more likely to survive) seems not to care anymore about others lives as much, making her seem less like a Stark than others (thus the whole "Sansa's direworlf died when she didn't).
Love how loads of reviewers havnt even mentioned the scene with Littlefinger talking of a marriage proposal, I think that is going to Sansa and Boltons
Does anybody else see the parallel storyline between Robb Stark and Daenerys Targaryen? 1) Capture members of the "enemy" opposition. Stark's army capture Lannister children and pressured to kill them by leadership of his army. Targaryen's army capture Son of the Harpy member and pressured to kill him by members of her small council. 2) Killing of captured prisoners against the orders of the King/Queen by a member of their Council. Stark was disobeyed by Richard Karstark. Targaryen was disobeyed by Mossador. 3) Both Richard Karstark and Mossador are beheaded for their treason.
Brent Fraliex Only difference is Robb was on road or camp and was in hurry to attack kings landing. Dany is not in hurry to attack kings landing, and so cud invest time on implementing laws.
Brent Fraliex I think former slaves reaction was more momntary emotional and their fear that she may turn like their earlier masters. I think implementing law in this case, may result of reducing threat from sons of harpy as some members may join with Dany
Brent Fraliex Yep I noticed it too. I thought it was pretty cool that it played out pretty much the same way, considering that Robb's Karstark problem was kinda the beginning of the end for him. So in case we didn't get it, Daenerys is in deep shit. Hopefully she doesn't intend to get married or anything. :-p
I can see some parallels between Cersei and Sansa .... Cersei had the fantasy of marrying the prince and becoming queen but ended up being burned by it and then learning to be more cunning , same with Sansa
I think the difference between Cersei and Sansa is that Sansa retains her kindness, even after everything that's happened to her in King's Landing, while Cersei never had much to begin with. It's a trait of Sansa that I've always admired. I hope they don't make her too dark this season XD (well, unless it's to hand over some justice to certain houses ;) No spoilers XD)
Great new set BTW (who designed the table?), and love that these are posted immediately following the episodes - love that you guys are taking this so seriously (it deserves it - it IS the best TV since Sopranos/Wire)!....do you all watch it together in same room (I imagine you do) - if so, throw us a few live reaction shots/clips every now and then like you did with Mountain vs. Viper.
The one major difference that I've noticed between Jon and Alliser is that they both react to their personal feelings very differently. While the two may be brave and (dare I say in Alliser's case) loyal, one is influenced by his emotions, while the other controls his emotions in order to do the right thing.
Man Cenk and his crapping on Sansa. She must remind him, the actress, of like a girl that broke his heart. He really should watch the previous seasons again and watch her. Sansa is one of the most interesting characters and delved into playing the game. She survived in the royal courts and Tyrion even said she will out live them all.
Henbot well, the most interesting thing about her is... i dunno, crying a lot? because that's everything she did between s01e09 and s04e02, from then on she was with baelish and he took care of organizing things. so what's interesting about her? i mean, her journey is understandable but nothing special, she grew up totally protected from everything fantasizing about pwetty princes and valiant knights, until she got to king's landing and had a taste of the reality she lives in. this surely got her something to think about, but in all that time did she ever actually do anything worth mentioning? at least develop a plan to better her situation or escape? granted she was not in a position of power so she had very few options to actually influence anybody and no spy network to gather information and was hostage to the lannisters but she could at least start scheming, instead of just sitting there and going "yes beloved king" to joffrey and "nope" to tyrion. and the fact that she is still alive is partly because she is more valuable to the lannisters alive(which is disputable after the red wedding) and because the few good folks in king's landing (and littlefinger) were looking out for her but she contributed nothing except "my father and brother were traitorz" whenever asked -.-
+eismar5 Maybe because, you know, her family members keep on dying? You wouldn't cry if your father is killed? And then your brother and mother? And maybe you forgot things like, she stands up everytime she gets beat up, not making the mistake of insulting all the bastards at court, specially Joffrey, in a slip of a tongue. A dead person is a useless person. She's got better chances than any other Stark child to get revenge for her family.
+eismar5 And she was scheming about her escape, with Dontos. As you yourself said, sge couldn't do more when everyone in the Red Keep was out to get her.
xVanillaDotsx true, it's not her fault that she is doomed to doing nothing(since the escape with ser dontos was littlefinger's plan) but it's not making things interesting, since the character has no moral dilemmas to solve, no choices to make... it's the opposite of interesting :/ btw: i think to state that guys in the red keep were out to get her is a slight overstatement, i'd just say she was in limbo, since nobody really wanted to have her killed, because that wouldn't benefit anyone in king's landing.
The least she wanted to do was being interesting, or draw attention to herself. And I worded it wrong, it's not that they were out to get her, well, Joffrey was, for any 'mistake' she made he would have the kingsguard beat her (well, he would have her beaten for no reason other than his foul mood as well). But the lords and ladies at court, they're vile alright? I think they enjoyed it when Sansa got mistreated by Joffrey, because it would serve as gossip. Everyone mocked Sansa for her situation, and more so when her wedding to Tyrion was announced. And since there is no lack of ass-kissers in court, I bet there were eager lords and ladies waiting for her to make a mistake, so they could inform Joffrey and leave a good impression on the king.
I am totally amazed that it took people so long to figure out that Sansa never had the Stark Character or honor. My word she catered to Joffery and sold out the truth and her sister when she didn't back Aria's story in the first episode. She did it because she wanted to marry Joffery and be Queen. She has always been self serving. Age is no excuse for a lack of ethics and honor. Aria was much younger and she took the honorable stand when she stood up to Joffery. All age has done for Sansa is make her more capable of being self serving because of experience.
Why is your argument always the same? Sansa didn't sell out Arya, and she definitely didn't sell out her father nor her family, before you say anything. At the time she was confronted by Robert and Cersei about what happened with Joffrey and Arya, she didn't really know what to say. She didn't do it to become a queen, she said she didn't know because of the pressure of being surrounded with these adults who all wanted different answers from her. And really, honor has brought people like Ned and Rob nowhere, if they are not intelligent enough to back it up.
xVanillaDotsx I don't think she has been self serving in the way of wanting to gain power, but rather just for herself to be a little more happier. In season 1, the fact that she tells Cersei of Ned's plan to go back to Winterfell with his daughters, shows that she disregarded her family (not to the extent of death, but still quite a dangerous move) just so she could remain in the capital where she felt happy. And seriously after the Butcher's boy part, Sansa's affection for Joffrey just stapled the idea that she lacks either honour or intelligence or something coz even after seeing the kinda shit he is, she still "loves" him
I think she still wanted to believe him, even after the altercation with Arya and Mycah, because she's been raised for this role. She has been taught that her fate was to marry some Lord and become a Lady, and in this case she was to be married to a Prince. The Sansa that believed in songs and fairytales could ask for nothing more. So were the fate of most women in that kind of society. And again, those were mistakes she made in the beginning, I think all her suffering has made up for it already.
xVanillaDotsx You seem to be projecting a rationalization for Sansa's actions. You imply that she was raised and taught to be the way she was. By whom? Katlin? Her father? Both of them were basically honorable people as reflected by the way the rest of the family turned out. Sansa was the exception. She believed what she wanted to believe because it was what she wanted to be true. Purely to justify her own self centered self interests. She has no honor and would sell anyone down the river if it suited her own self interests. She wouldn't take a risk for anyone or for principles sake. Her own choices helped to create her reality and she still pretends that she is a victim to rationalize her un-accountability.
WILTALK I think you are forgetting that at the time, she was raised a sheltered princess and no amount of rationalization would impinge on her teenage head that fed stories of knights and ladies and courtship. It was only when she was actually in King's Landing the reality revealed itself. To be fair no one deserved that fate, and your attitude of "she deserved it and should be held accountable" are quite appalling. She was a little girl unlike Joffrey that revels in torture. In comparison she always had a kind but naive heart that grew wary to Dark Sansa.
Cenk is such a meat head sometimes, there is no logical reason to hate Sansa and where did he come up with that nonsense about Sansa choosing Baelish over her family
LadyCathrynDarkwind They mentioned that too, and said they still didn't like the name. I don't care about it really, but keep in mind that GRRM probably named him Drogo in the first place in order to name the dragon drogon.
We did meet Kevan Lannister before, at the meeting table of the Lannister army at the first Season, Tywin and Tyrion were there. Well sure Mance was more burned DUH, but Slinth sure gets second place.
The way that Cenk guy talks about Sansa makes me want to punch a wall! OH MY GOD... Is it even possible to not understand Sansa that much? Ugh, that guy's lack of empathy, perception, context and all the other aspects important for understanding Sansa is alarming and drives me crazy. :X
I hate that the show has cut out the stuff about Arya's wolf. Also Brienne got burned worst, sadly. Sansa is turning into Cersei, and I think that was the way both the show runners and George RR Martin intended for her journey to go. All those moments between her and Cersei at King's Landing were foreshadowing how this world turns girls like Sansa into women like Cersei.
The Dashboard I really miss the "wolf dreams" that Arya and Jon both have. They need to start including them. Just a low level camera going through brush, snow with the sound of dog like breathing. Quick 10 segments segments and immediately show someone waking Jon or Arya up.
Guys, love the new format, but is there a way to get a better focus range on the cameras? Everyone has to sit in just the right spot in order to be in focus, and if they shift a little bit it gets blurry, which is really distracting when watching in HD. Is there a way to compensate for that? Otherwise, great show. Always love your recaps/reviews of the GoT episodes.
On the poll, I think Slint got the worse burn because he has to face those men every day. Also, Kevan Lannister: we met him in season 1 when Tyrion joined his father's camp after escaping the Eyrie and joining up with the hill tribes. I think he might have been at Harrenhall when Tywin was resident there, too.
Did anybody else like that they kept the little Mormont girl's letter ? Bear Island knows no king, but the King in the North, whose name is Stark! I also liked that it made Jon smile for once.
Janos Slynt got lit up (verbally) the most. Peter Baelish is a smart skeemer ready to find weaknesses in anyone. Sam is a fairly meek person not really ready to confront people. So Sam shaming arguably the 2nd most influential person in the Nights Watch at that point in front of everyone was unexpectedly bold and therein terribly insulting.
It's weird how Cenk and Ben make fun of John for identifying the language as old ghiscari after they asked what it is. I know John acts like everything is cool (probably because Cenk is his employer) but he must be so annoyed by these two bullies.
I also wish they'd let John talk more. I feel like Ben interrupts John whenever he starts to say something. SO annoying. Especially since Ben adds very little value to these reviews.
I know TYT is supposed to look very casual but clearly, whenever one person is paying another one, social dynamics are far from bantering between friends.
Hans Maulwurf I agree. And if they let him talk every once in a while it'd be a nice lesson. The Ghiscari, for example, were an empire in Essos founded before the Valyrian one, possibly the oldest civilization in the known world. It is equivalent to the Carthaginian Empire where Valyria is Rome.
Let the misogynist hating-on-women-without-military-prowess begin...you guys really need a few people who can actually interpret more internalized characters like Sansa on your team - the only characters you seem to understand and like are flashy, easy-to-read characters like Arya and Dany (not that I have anything against Arya, I love her)
Amrita Saha Yeah, it's not like that up until the very end of the last season she was a boring character that has acted like nothing but a child. Let's review shall we... She gets Mycah, the butcher's son who was playing with Arya, killed for no reason but to gain favor with Joffrey, but she's more upset about her wolf getting killed. She sells out Ned when he tries to get his family out of King's Landing, and thus starts a chain of events that causes her own downfall. She mopes around for 3 more seasons basically just being sad and boring. Then, she finally catches some good luck by marrying one of the few decent people in all of Westeros, Tyrion, but she's still too moronic to take advantage of the situation. Finally, only after almost being thrown out of a fucking moon door by her insane aunt, does she get the fact that perhaps it might be in her best interest to not be a stupid bastard.... So, yeah, everyone must hate her for having a vagina and not being able to fight. It certainly has nothing to do with the fact that she's was a horrible person that deserved everything she got since she caused most of it and was monumentally boring all the while. I mean who could possibly enjoy someone with a vagina and no ability to fight, everyone hates that dead bitch Caitlin Stark, who could stand that mousy little annoyance that is Gilly, and let's not even get started with that tart Margery Tyrell... It most certainly must be the fact that Sansa doesn't have a penis and is unable to fight, clearly it has nothing to do with how shitty and boring a character she was up until the very end of last season.
+aprisia Uhm, what? Mycah's death was not Sansa's fault, it was Cersei's. I'm no longer surprised by these "arguments" people lresent to hate on Sansa. Really, it's stupid. She didn't sell out her father. Selling out means that she knew her father would die with her actions, which she didn't. She begged for Ned's life, obviously she didn't want her father dead. Ned's death was his own fault. And I think you would be crying too, if your family members keep on dying by the hands of your captors, without being able to do anything about it.
+aprisia And marrying Tyrion was an advantage? Really? Yeah, because Tyrion would throw everything away to help her escape King's Landing? Sansa is not stupid to trust a Lannister. We as spectators know that Tyrion has good intentions towards her, but Sansa doesn't. And the logical choice in her situation is to not trust anyone, much less a Lannister.
WILTALK I never implied anything about women characters in general - the opposite, in fact. The reviewers seem to only endorse one form of "cool" womanhood which is the physical weapon-wielding, openly defiant sort of character (ie. Arya, Dany, Brienne) and they seem to be very derisive of the rest - in this case, women like Sansa who find ways to survive within the mold of patriarchy rather than playing outside the box.
Amrita Saha To be fair, the show likes those women the best, too. I don't get the sense that either GRRM or the showrunners really appreciate femininity that much; their most likeable female characters are the ones who can fight like a man. We'll see how Sansa turns out, I guess. Maybe they can do a good job with her.
In regards the "Dragons / Nukes" are the wrong move: there was a history class I took (and failed) where the professor was talking about Alexander the Great. He'd gone far afield with his conquering, when word came back to him that some of the governments he'd installed were getting out of hand (or the populace was, I disremember) and so what did he do? He went back, sacked his own cities, sold the captives into slavery or executed them as depending. And guess what? All those other misbehaving cities or cities that were thinking about misbehaving? They did a rethink. Counterpoint - AFTER Alexander died (at 25, 27? GG dude) everything fell into chaos. So it's a strategy that only works so long as you have a sizeable force that's loyal to you AND so long as you have that ferocity of reputation for enforcing your dictum. :shrugs
I'm pretty sure Daenerys was speaking Valyrian in this episode because she was using the "blah blah blah 'zdaor" grammar (which is one of the most memorable things for me about Valyrian).
I'm a book reader myself and if someone asked who's the smartest member of the stark family my answer will always be Sansa!..only a average TV watcher and a misogynist like cenk will call Sansa stupid.All he needs to do is go back to seasons/books 1-4 and realize that all this time she has been the only stark that was adapting and learning from her environment and using it for her survival without the need for sword and violence which is something all the arya fanboys love.cenk has extremely poor critical thinking skills,we all saw that in his Sam Harris interview.
I don't get Matt's hate of Jorah. For someone who has read the books and watched the show he seems to have forgotten a lot on how the story has developed. We have to remember when this thing started Daenaerys was just a chess piece to get Drogo's army. Her brother was the heir not her. No one knew of her abilities until she grew into them. Jorah was spying on her brother originally who was a shit no one cared about. He sent a message off about her pregnancy while her brother was still alive after all. Jorah fell into the spying business because he loved his wife and wanted to keep her happy. He sold poachers to slavers - poachers ie people hunting illegally on his land not some innocent farmers. Had he killed them would Ned have wanted him dead thus forcing him to flee into exile? Jorah had the opportunity to let Daenaerys be poisoned which means Varys couldn't have been on her side at that time. She was pregnant with Drogo's baby at the time so unless Jorah was into preggers he could have just taken the offer and got his lands and titles back rather than standing by someone's else wife who at that particular time had little or no chance of seizing the throne since her husband was not in the slightest bit interested up until then. I think he grew to respect her when she showed she was not just a waif to be tossed around and over time that respect grew into love. Look at what the poor bastard went thru for her. *He threw away his pardon and a chance to get his lordship back in order to save her life when she was another man's wife and pregnant at that. Like I said at that time she was only destined to be the wife and mother of Dothraki chieftains and Jorah just a lackey. *He fought and killed a Dothraki champion while Daenaerys tried to save that husband. *He trekked thru a freaking desert where they could have died while helping to keep Daenaerys alive. *He went against his own advice for caution to follow Daenaerys which could have got them killed 10 times over *He helped overthrow Yunkai allied with a suspicious guy who could have betrayed and killed him *He advised her at several turns to be merciful I think all the things he did to keep her alive and his counsel more than make up for his small amount of spying much of it when her brother was still alive.
Dany cud have punish him only 10 yrs, but that wud have populist measure and against her earlier statement "law is law". Also, by ensuring fairness in laws, some of the members of harpy (or secret council of former masters) cud break away to join Dany, and so reducing the threat of rebel. Also, Dany is not in hurry like Robb, to attack kings landing. So, she cud invest her time to implement laws, instead of choosing need of keeping ppl on her side at time of war.
Cenk the hissing was not to Dany, if you looked close the hissing was directed toward the slave masters, and that was confirmed when they threw rocks at them and not Dany.
I once read a fantastic theory, that Barristan Selmy will end up doing what Jaime Lannister did and will kill Danerys to stop her from using her dragons to burn King's Landing when the people resist her rule. This would bring an excellent tragic end to the Danerys saga and would also be a perfect conclusion to Barristan Selmy's storyline.
Info to Ben's point about "make up language" and refilming scenes if she says "you didn't" when she was supposed to say "you did". I started paying attention to her Valyrian when I took some linguistics classes a few years back (season 3, I think). Negation appears as the suffix -daor when Denaerys speaks Valyrian. Same goes for Melisandre's Valyrian conversation with Thoros of Myr as well.
being named a stark and lord of winterfell by someone other than who he believes was his father if much more empty than having a king he doesn't believe is king as he said before name him stark and lord just to get him to fight.
My theory is that by the end, a new manifestation of The Seven will be the major force of change. Arya is the strongest piece of evidence for this: neither male nor female, with a constantly changing face, a foreigner in strange lands, and Death personified
I don't think any of you guys mentionned it, but the Night's Watch is the only democracy pretty much everywhere in GoT. Daenerys told the Unsullied generals to choose one among them to represent them, but from what I gather, it was only the generals who chose, while in the Night's Watch, everyone, from the lowliest of recruit to the Maester, has one vote.
Aryas wolf is alive it has a whole army of dire wolves. In the book arya has dreams where she's running as a wolf through the forest and eating freys. That's her warning into nymeria. I hope the show includes that story
Agree that GoT is about the Stark heirs as central to the series. I sort of see Sansa surviving the way she's learned how just as Arya is - except one has no honor and the other acts with nothing but honor. No? LOVE the idea that Arya kills The Mountain! NICE!
Does anyone else find watching Game of Thrones a slightly more uncomfortable experience after all the ISIS stuff that's happened? - the beheaded dwarf, mance being burned alive, the sparrows (religious fanatics) from the Sept etc.
James Hart I think if it's uncomfortable, then the original author and the showrunners are doing a good job. They're telling a pretty realistic and tragic story.
John Snow saw the White Walker with is own eyes he know that being John Stark is irrelevant. Saying to Stannis he as to keep is vow is more an excuse than anything else he know the threat of White Walker is real and the Bolton are just secondary important.
When Stannis told Jon Snow he would make him Jon "Stark" I was overwhelmed with the feels. That was a big fucking moment and I can't believe he turned it down. I was like nooooo get revenge.
"Kevan? His name is Kevan? How ridiculous!" *laughs profusely at the name.* So guys, did you forget about Robert, Robb, Robin, Jon, Gregor, Ned, Karl and Sam?
SPOILER! Sansa, once again engaged to a depraved psychopath. This time I hope she fairs better than in kings landing. I don't understand all the hate for her, because i think she acted how anyone else would act in a situation were you're surrounded by people who despise you, and plus you having no power. Based on her mentor and her personality, she will obviously develop a political cunning. She'll be a bad ass in a different way than her sister.
I read all the books and I'm starting to think that Cenk read them all too and not telling us, because he's always so close to whats actually going to happen.
Dont know if this was mentioned by any chance but there was a lot of snake symbolism in this episode. The box Jamie opens at the start had a pendant hanging on a snake ornament - Dora of Dorn? was waearing a snake bracelet -When Gillie is learning how to read she feels the S and says S an in snake and the hissing at the end towards Danaerys. Just thought Id point that out.
cenk...i think jon has been refining his leadership skills as every season/book goes by. it's almost as if he is climbing the ranks as the series hero or almost as the king.
I don't get Cenk's hate-on for Sansa. Like..I'm not sure what she is *supposed* to do exactly? Did they expect her to roll in the mud and escape King Landing like Arya? That isn't how her character is. She was raised singing an doing needle work. She wouldn't survive on her own out in the wild and its not like she has many people to turn to for help.
Jon Snow turned Stanis down. Doesn't mean it couldn't be offered again though. Down the line events could change to prompt Jon to change his mind. Winter coming could change what is relevant at that time.
Well, Jon leaving the Night's Watch wasn't an option to begin with. He swore an oath to the old gods and he is the kind of guy who believes that it would have consequences if he betrayed them. Plus I don't know if there has ever been somebody leaving the Night's Watch with their honor intact. It might be that none of the Northerners accepted a deserting crow if he went on calling himself Stark and ruling over them just because one of the usurping kings declared him to be in charge.
I find it funny how opinions change depending on the character. because Dany killed a man who committed a crime and John killed a guy because he did not want to obey but in some way John did the right thing and Dany is lost and can not rule a city.
Cenk's stupidity towards Sansa is incredible. I'm 100% confident Ben actively tries to forget everything and everyone in this show.
Bruce Wayne Ben doesn't respect fantasy as a genre and that really comes through in all these reviews.
Yeah, it's really ignorant
Bruce Wayne Cannot stand Cenk's attitude towards Sansa. He's such an arrogant jerk.
tierneybeckett I thought I was the only one! It's really fascinating to me, how Cenk can honestly think a young woman who has been abused and humiliated in all but the very worst way possible (for her), surrounded by snakes with no one to look out for her and yet is still alive, is not playing the game somehow (not saying she's a master player - in no way. But she's smart enough - as the Starks go - and visibly getting smarter, now that she actually has room to grow and can show it. Even Tyrion noticed it, and he's not such a bad judge of character. Mind you, I'm biased. I find women like Sansa interesting because they're so rarely represented in their own narratives in fantasy).
Sapphonouveau Oh, no. You're not the only one. Honestly, his opinion of Sansa comes across as kind of misogynistic since it seems to hinge on the fact that she's a teenage girl. There are times, though, when Sansa impresses me more than Arya does. Arya can be reckless sometimes and just spitting out her opinion is something Sansa learned to control pretty quickly in King's Landing. As for this episode, I think she totally believed Brienne. But it won't help her any to go WITH Brienne. Littlefinger can keep her safer. For now. She'd have nowhere to go with Brienne. Except maybe, MAYBE Castle Black. And who knows if they'd get there before any Lannister men or mercenaries found them?
I do think the show is about the Stark kids and I've often wondered about the symbolism of Sansa's wolf being dead. GRRM has been brutal to the Starks but in order for the next generation to come into their own you have to get the old generation out of the way. Think about all the role models he's given to them. Jon has had Ned, Mormont, Halfhand, Mance - all leaders. Arya has had Ned, Yoren, Jaqen, Tywin, Beric, The Hound - all badasses. Sansa has had Tyrion, Cersei, Littlefinger - all players - and Ned and Joffrey as examples of how not to do it. Bran gets Jojen and tree dude to learn his powers. Rickon doesn't get much but he's about 5 in the books. So on the surface it looks like he's been destroying the Starks but really he's been priming the ones he hasn't killed for success. In contrast Tommen had Tywin for about 30 seconds but otherwise the Lannister kids have been pretty much raised exclusively by Cersei, may the seven have mercy on their souls. Except for Joffrey's.
krtwood There's so much detail with richness in Game of Thrones, you can make symbolism in so many ways that make sense but is truthfully just random.
krtwood Personally, I like to think that the entire series, with the exception of the stuff having to do with the wights and the Others, being entirely one giant chess game between Petyr Baelish and Varys. Outside of what happens north of the wall, every single event can be drawn back to a choice made by one or the other.
krtwood Blasphemy! R'hollor (and the other) are the only true gods! Repent, nonbeliever and join the red god of light! For the night is dark and full of terrors!
krtwood
I think show is more about politics in simple & intersting terms of fantansy. Remember politics literally mean administration of city and problems & solutions while doing it. It shows various different kinds of politics, politicians, culture, religion, cult, weaponary.
I think dragon r analogus to modern fighter planes. white walkes r analogus to epidemic desease or religious terrorists (by the way religious ppl sometimes behave like zombies or white walkers).
I dont think show is just about starks, they merely served moving the plot, and shows Westros system is so bad that good guys keep dying. Ppl keep fighting each other. So, it desperately require new/better political system.
Its scope is much wider than just stark kids.
krtwood Also Margeary and maybe Olenna for Sansa.
Maybe it's hard for them to see the potential in Sansa because they're used to Arya and Dany who are more flashy with their power and assertiveness. Sansa internalizes her resources, I think she has just the same potential to make some serious moves as the other two. You guys are waaaay to harsh on her! As a women in her current position, she would be wise to take the route of Margaery and use her looks and manipulation skills to get power.
We see Kevan talking with Tywin on his small council in season 2
Dasaun McClinton
He was also with Tywin when Tyrion found his camp in season 1
Season 1
Dasaun McClinton You guys know first 4 episodes leaked online ?!?! :) I have found site with all four ! :)
Here is the link: plus.google.com/101850631288878922775/posts/fHLmaSSPc91
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Dasaun McClinton He's been the Waldo of Game of Thrones.
Dasaun McClinton *Game of thrones leaked four episodes of season 5* ! ! :):)
Watch them for *FREE* here: plus.google.com/101850631288878922775/posts/fHLmaSSPc91
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Fuck the Sansa hate, yeesh. She was never an idiot. She was aware of how horrible things were in King's Landing as early as season 2, she just never had a way out because she's a normal, pure hearted girl. She couldn't try to kill her way out like Arya...she's always been finding ways to stay alive, and now that she's out of danger she's going to unleash that Stark fire that she spends most of her time hiding.
The problem with Danaerys is that she completely disregards the culture of the people that she conquers and is trying to replace it with her version of a perfect society. She needs to give them something
Dasaun McClinton I think the mereen situation perfectly parallels the US war in Iraq.
ThePeteralonzo83 Dany certainly has the political acumen of george w bush and she's the one with the wmds.
America vs the world maybe? Hmm
Dasaun McClinton To be fair, that whole clusterfuck in Mereen has yet to be concluded in the books. Sometimes the only way to settle things is by fighting it out, regardless of cultural differences. It's gonna be awesome.
evillink1 That's a big fat IF statement. They are already scratching off major plots and characters that happened in the novel. Aegon/young griff will not even be in the tv show.
I don't like this seating arrangement, I prefer the couches from last year. Just saying, it added to the fun, relaxed vibe of the conversations.
I like how Matt threw on a jacket to try to hide the fact that they filmed the first 4 reviews all in one sitting
Brendan Beckett They may have received legitimate press copies of all 4 episodes early. That's how the episodes leaked anyway -- they didn't necessarily pirate them to have watched them early.
Endeavour Studios No it's totally legit, I wasn't implying otherwise. I think they filmed this on the Wednesday before the premiere, days before there were even leaks.
Brendan Beckett Ben, Matt are legit movie/television critics. They have day jobs as critics.
MegaMoose1989 Yes... I know that. That's why they received the screeners... I'm not sure why I am being misunderstood here.
No worries I thought you were implying the torrented the leaks and were reviewing those copies.
I really hate how unfair everyone is to Sansa. Honestly, I see a lot of potential in her, and she differs from the Starks maybe in a good way that she won't have honor as something to hold her back. I think they underplay how she was only 13 and raised her whole life to be a princess or marry high. She has gone through A LOT and unlike Arya, Jon, and Bran she had to spend the majority of the show with people who hated her and were responsible for her family's death. I genuinely think that after having Littlefinger as a mentor, she could seriously shake some things up.
Love how Matt always insults Cersei's scheming but Cenk thinks its brilliant. Shows who reads the books and actually observes.
Flash Finnigan How do the books portray it?
James Campbell-Laing She reallythinks she's smarter than she is and eventually has to pay for her stupidity. A Feast for Crows is basically her fucking up and paying for it.
Flash Finnigan Thanks.
Flash Finnigan i'll be honest, i'll felt like cersei was perfectly smart, not super smart mind you, up until feast for crows. i feel like she was borderline disempowered in that book.
sinnerandprejudice Its not that big of a spoiler really cause its obvious in this season that Cersei has nowhere near as much political clout as she did before, now that Tommen is of age and married to Margery. Plus she is very full of herself so she underestimates how cunning Margery is.
Sansa wasn't dumb at all. She was smart to survive in King's Landing that long. She has silly ideas about how the world worked, but that illusion was shattered pretty quickly. Now she's only getting more clever. She's also an INCREDIBLY strong character.
Cenk, go back and watch from season one again. Sansa was never stupid, she acted accordingly to her upbringing and you're judging her actions at the beginning as if she was an adult. Let me remind you all, she didn't even get her period until season 2. She is also quite honorable and compasionate, to the point that she saved Dontos Hollard from being killed and gave all the other ladies the courage to get through the battle of the blackwater. And make no mistake, she loves her siblings and arya loves her. They've grown enough to get past their petty differences. People who refer to this simple, childish sibling rivarly as something deeper are overthinking it. Also keep in mind that rumor has it, Sansa and Tyrion killed Joffrey, so Arya must be loving Sansa right now.
Cenk gettin real tired of your Sansa hate.
I know I was in the extreme minority of liking Sansa's character from the beginning (okay fine starting right after Ned's death book and show) Arya's a fighter and Sansa is a thinker. Yes in the beginning she was a spoiled little princess but when shit hit the fan she knew herself enough to know she couldn't fight and she was smart enough to know she wasn't smart enough to think her way out so she made herself made sure she wasn't seen as a threat.
Most people would go into a blind rage or dissolved into a state of debilitating depression (both would put her life a risk,one for trying to kill the king, and the other for not being a suitable plaything for him) if they went from her naive existence to having their father and nurse maid excused by their finance and being forced to stare at them endlessly the fact that she never went crazy throughout the mental, physical, and emotional torture says a lot about her.
And she's shown a lot of development throughout, she went from just keeping her head down, to subtle manipulation, to more advanced and now she's practically learning from a master, hear me now quote me later Sansa Stark is going to become a Chess Master even if she's not after the throne she gonna be an interesting player.
I agree with you, Sansa is smart... If she wasn't she wouldn't be alive she's also with little finger who is an evil genius.. She will learn and become even smarter.
Cangel Tibon I think Sansa will be insanely important later on in the series. I also like the development over the series. Atleast they no longer have Ana with her feminist bullshit spouting how much she hates Sansa.
Cangel Tibon I think their hatred for Sansa now is more to do with the fact that although she has become smarter, she has had to discard her values and what really made her a Stark, for example they say that Arya would leave at a moments notice for her family whereas Sansa (at the current state) seems like she wouldn't. And cmon, shes not being so smart, anyone with half a brain would have realised Petyr has a thing for her and so she can use him to survive.
Charlie Holdsworth Hey hey I'm a feminist myself, but the point of it should be (and yeah Ana goes way off track) that women are people, they naturally fit into all parts of the spectrum from the docile (Kat and Sansa) to the aggressive (Brienne and Arya). I only fault society when it tries to force an Arya to be a Sansa or a Sam to be a Mountain.
Cangel Tibon I totally agree. I was just glad that it was limited to one person, that person did not bring in the word feminism, and someone defended her position. To go with Brienne (however it's spelt) would have been dumb. It annoys me when "new feminists" get their kniskers in a twist because some women prefer traditional gender roles. More power to women to do whatever the hell they want.
I agree with Cenk; Jon is a Commander, not a Ruler. And regarding the question: I think Janos Slynt got burn't the most, but that's because it was friggin' Sam doing the burning.
Technical note: Cersei is Lord/Lady of Casterly Rock, not Kevan.
Other: Cenk's interpretation of Sansa seems overly harsh.
OJagg1 yes she is, but Kevan has the power of the Lannister name behind him, Cersei is less respected for her incest, Jaime was super powerful until he lost his hand.With his brother not around Kevan holds the power in Westeros besides Stannis
OJagg1 women don't get ownership of stuff except in Dorne.
Booster Gold
They do if they are the only surviving child. Its called agnatic-cognatic primogeniture succession. Eldest child, male preferred. I only mentioned it because the show has hasn't traditionally acknowledged female titles holders, other then Dany, and the Kevin's exit speech seemed to suggest he was now the lord in the show.
OJagg1 no she's not, all men come before any women in the line of succession
i'm always a bit surprised when ppl think sansa is not honorable, when i consider her to be the stark child most like ned. it's not that she is dumb and a bad player at the beginning, it's more that she was refusing to play like ned did. she made some risky moves that were to help other people beside herself. she spoke up to save ser dontos and she also told the tyrells how awful joffrey was, which was a noble move as she was afraid that if they knew how awful he was, she herself would again have to marry him. she decided though that she couldn't let margaery go into it without knowing, even though she didn't know her at all then.
hermyclone12 I think they meant that this season, along with her new stoic way of speaking (which i find really awkward and insincere) she seems to have changed dramatically from who she was (e.g. as you said, her doing these nice things), in such a short time. The old Sansa wouldn't have let littlefinger order the death of Brienne, but now Sansa (although she may seem more cunning and more likely to survive) seems not to care anymore about others lives as much, making her seem less like a Stark than others (thus the whole "Sansa's direworlf died when she didn't).
Not liking the new format. The awkward close-ups, the useless table, it just doesn't feel as authentic as the discussions on the couch
Want to see more of Dorne and whatever Sansa/Theon get up to
Sanskar Wagley oh you definitely will ;)
Sanskar Wagley Next episode will have Theon!
stephanjacob17 Oui
You won't be waiting long 😉
Love how loads of reviewers havnt even mentioned the scene with Littlefinger talking of a marriage proposal, I think that is going to Sansa and Boltons
Does anybody else see the parallel storyline between Robb Stark and Daenerys Targaryen?
1) Capture members of the "enemy" opposition. Stark's army capture Lannister children and pressured to kill them by leadership of his army. Targaryen's army capture Son of the Harpy member and pressured to kill him by members of her small council.
2) Killing of captured prisoners against the orders of the King/Queen by a member of their Council. Stark was disobeyed by Richard Karstark. Targaryen was disobeyed by Mossador.
3) Both Richard Karstark and Mossador are beheaded for their treason.
Brent Fraliex
Only difference is Robb was on road or camp and was in hurry to attack kings landing. Dany is not in hurry to attack kings landing, and so cud invest time on implementing laws.
The difference is Karstark commanded a decent chunk of Rob's troops.
Jacob and Mossador didn't have the former slaves in his corner with all those hisses?
Brent Fraliex
I think former slaves reaction was more momntary emotional and their fear that she may turn like their earlier masters.
I think implementing law in this case, may result of reducing threat from sons of harpy as some members may join with Dany
Brent Fraliex Yep I noticed it too. I thought it was pretty cool that it played out pretty much the same way, considering that Robb's Karstark problem was kinda the beginning of the end for him. So in case we didn't get it, Daenerys is in deep shit. Hopefully she doesn't intend to get married or anything. :-p
It was fun to see Cerci's small council vs Dany's small council, one makes you think about different options given and the other gives nothing.
"The Man who passes the sentence should swing the sword!"- Ned Stark
Really love the new set up at the bar counter. The design looks like the woods and reminds me of House Forrester from the TellTales games. ^_^
I can see some parallels between Cersei and Sansa .... Cersei had the fantasy of marrying the prince and becoming queen but ended up being burned by it and then learning to be more cunning , same with Sansa
definitely, just hope Sansa doesn't end up as bitter as her.
xVanillaDotsx i get the feeling she'll be more like Margaery
Tanay Vaidya Sansa isn't inherently evil though .. we've seen in the flashback that Cersei was always a bitch
rhn94 which is why I said she'd probably end up being like Margaery
I think the difference between Cersei and Sansa is that Sansa retains her kindness, even after everything that's happened to her in King's Landing, while Cersei never had much to begin with. It's a trait of Sansa that I've always admired. I hope they don't make her too dark this season XD (well, unless it's to hand over some justice to certain houses ;) No spoilers XD)
Great new set BTW (who designed the table?), and love that these are posted immediately following the episodes - love that you guys are taking this so seriously (it deserves it - it IS the best TV since Sopranos/Wire)!....do you all watch it together in same room (I imagine you do) - if so, throw us a few live reaction shots/clips every now and then like you did with Mountain vs. Viper.
The one major difference that I've noticed between Jon and Alliser is that they both react to their personal feelings very differently. While the two may be brave and (dare I say in Alliser's case) loyal, one is influenced by his emotions, while the other controls his emotions in order to do the right thing.
Phenomenal conversation. Beautifully shot for what it is. I was engaged it made me think even deeper than I do. Well done gentleman.
i watch GoT, but i'm not a geek because i wear a leather jacket and don't remember the names. suck it, dorks!
I gotta say, I don't know who is in the control or room for these, or who does the editing, but the the camera-work and editing are very well done!
Man Cenk and his crapping on Sansa. She must remind him, the actress, of like a girl that broke his heart. He really should watch the previous seasons again and watch her. Sansa is one of the most interesting characters and delved into playing the game. She survived in the royal courts and Tyrion even said she will out live them all.
Henbot well, the most interesting thing about her is... i dunno, crying a lot? because that's everything she did between s01e09 and s04e02, from then on she was with baelish and he took care of organizing things.
so what's interesting about her?
i mean, her journey is understandable but nothing special, she grew up totally protected from everything fantasizing about pwetty princes and valiant knights, until she got to king's landing and had a taste of the reality she lives in. this surely got her something to think about, but in all that time did she ever actually do anything worth mentioning? at least develop a plan to better her situation or escape?
granted she was not in a position of power so she had very few options to actually influence anybody and no spy network to gather information and was hostage to the lannisters but she could at least start scheming, instead of just sitting there and going "yes beloved king" to joffrey and "nope" to tyrion.
and the fact that she is still alive is partly because she is more valuable to the lannisters alive(which is disputable after the red wedding) and because the few good folks in king's landing (and littlefinger) were looking out for her but she contributed nothing except "my father and brother were traitorz" whenever asked -.-
+eismar5 Maybe because, you know, her family members keep on dying? You wouldn't cry if your father is killed? And then your brother and mother? And maybe you forgot things like, she stands up everytime she gets beat up, not making the mistake of insulting all the bastards at court, specially Joffrey, in a slip of a tongue. A dead person is a useless person. She's got better chances than any other Stark child to get revenge for her family.
+eismar5 And she was scheming about her escape, with Dontos. As you yourself said, sge couldn't do more when everyone in the Red Keep was out to get her.
xVanillaDotsx
true, it's not her fault that she is doomed to doing nothing(since the escape with ser dontos was littlefinger's plan) but it's not making things interesting, since the character has no moral dilemmas to solve, no choices to make... it's the opposite of interesting :/
btw: i think to state that guys in the red keep were out to get her is a slight overstatement, i'd just say she was in limbo, since nobody really wanted to have her killed, because that wouldn't benefit anyone in king's landing.
The least she wanted to do was being interesting, or draw attention to herself. And I worded it wrong, it's not that they were out to get her, well, Joffrey was, for any 'mistake' she made he would have the kingsguard beat her (well, he would have her beaten for no reason other than his foul mood as well). But the lords and ladies at court, they're vile alright? I think they enjoyed it when Sansa got mistreated by Joffrey, because it would serve as gossip. Everyone mocked Sansa for her situation, and more so when her wedding to Tyrion was announced. And since there is no lack of ass-kissers in court, I bet there were eager lords and ladies waiting for her to make a mistake, so they could inform Joffrey and leave a good impression on the king.
I am totally amazed that it took people so long to figure out that Sansa never had the Stark Character or honor. My word she catered to Joffery and sold out the truth and her sister when she didn't back Aria's story in the first episode. She did it because she wanted to marry Joffery and be Queen. She has always been self serving. Age is no excuse for a lack of ethics and honor. Aria was much younger and she took the honorable stand when she stood up to Joffery. All age has done for Sansa is make her more capable of being self serving because of experience.
Why is your argument always the same? Sansa didn't sell out Arya, and she definitely didn't sell out her father nor her family, before you say anything. At the time she was confronted by Robert and Cersei about what happened with Joffrey and Arya, she didn't really know what to say. She didn't do it to become a queen, she said she didn't know because of the pressure of being surrounded with these adults who all wanted different answers from her. And really, honor has brought people like Ned and Rob nowhere, if they are not intelligent enough to back it up.
xVanillaDotsx I don't think she has been self serving in the way of wanting to gain power, but rather just for herself to be a little more happier. In season 1, the fact that she tells Cersei of Ned's plan to go back to Winterfell with his daughters, shows that she disregarded her family (not to the extent of death, but still quite a dangerous move) just so she could remain in the capital where she felt happy. And seriously after the Butcher's boy part, Sansa's affection for Joffrey just stapled the idea that she lacks either honour or intelligence or something coz even after seeing the kinda shit he is, she still "loves" him
I think she still wanted to believe him, even after the altercation with Arya and Mycah, because she's been raised for this role. She has been taught that her fate was to marry some Lord and become a Lady, and in this case she was to be married to a Prince. The Sansa that believed in songs and fairytales could ask for nothing more. So were the fate of most women in that kind of society. And again, those were mistakes she made in the beginning, I think all her suffering has made up for it already.
xVanillaDotsx You seem to be projecting a rationalization for Sansa's actions. You imply that she was raised and taught to be the way she was. By whom? Katlin? Her father? Both of them were basically honorable people as reflected by the way the rest of the family turned out. Sansa was the exception. She believed what she wanted to believe because it was what she wanted to be true. Purely to justify her own self centered self interests. She has no honor and would sell anyone down the river if it suited her own self interests. She wouldn't take a risk for anyone or for principles sake. Her own choices helped to create her reality and she still pretends that she is a victim to rationalize her un-accountability.
WILTALK I think you are forgetting that at the time, she was raised a sheltered princess and no amount of rationalization would impinge on her teenage head that fed stories of knights and ladies and courtship. It was only when she was actually in King's Landing the reality revealed itself. To be fair no one deserved that fate, and your attitude of "she deserved it and should be held accountable" are quite appalling. She was a little girl unlike Joffrey that revels in torture. In comparison she always had a kind but naive heart that grew wary to Dark Sansa.
Cenk is such a meat head sometimes, there is no logical reason to hate Sansa and where did he come up with that nonsense about Sansa choosing Baelish over her family
The dragon's name is pronounced DROE GONE, not dragon.
Brade That was a joke about how it is so similar to the word dragon. They talked about not liking the name in the last episode.
Joe McFadden He was named in honor/remembrance of Drogo
LadyCathrynDarkwind They mentioned that too, and said they still didn't like the name. I don't care about it really, but keep in mind that GRRM probably named him Drogo in the first place in order to name the dragon drogon.
Haven't watched What the Flick in a while, they really upped the production value! Great camera work.
I really want to like these reviews, but I simply cannot deal with all the Sansa hate...
We did meet Kevan Lannister before, at the meeting table of the Lannister army at the first Season, Tywin and Tyrion were there.
Well sure Mance was more burned DUH, but Slinth sure gets second place.
I like these reviews but I think you should do the extended discussions with Steve Oh again. He had great insights.
Where's Ana? Always good to hear her take on GoT.
Saadfeld Good question. I liked having her on the recaps.
Ben Mankiewicz: Wrong about everything. ^^
This episode felt very "TV" to me. It was TV dramatic not GoT dramatic...
Loved this episode!
Interesting review guys, as always :)
The way that Cenk guy talks about Sansa makes me want to punch a wall! OH MY GOD... Is it even possible to not understand Sansa that much? Ugh, that guy's lack of empathy, perception, context and all the other aspects important for understanding Sansa is alarming and drives me crazy. :X
I hate that the show has cut out the stuff about Arya's wolf. Also Brienne got burned worst, sadly. Sansa is turning into Cersei, and I think that was the way both the show runners and George RR Martin intended for her journey to go. All those moments between her and Cersei at King's Landing were foreshadowing how this world turns girls like Sansa into women like Cersei.
The Dashboard I really miss the "wolf dreams" that Arya and Jon both have. They need to start including them. Just a low level camera going through brush, snow with the sound of dog like breathing. Quick 10 segments segments and immediately show someone waking Jon or Arya up.
Guys, love the new format, but is there a way to get a better focus range on the cameras? Everyone has to sit in just the right spot in order to be in focus, and if they shift a little bit it gets blurry, which is really distracting when watching in HD. Is there a way to compensate for that? Otherwise, great show. Always love your recaps/reviews of the GoT episodes.
Alexander Siddig is so great. I loved him as Hannibal.
Already? By the Seven, the episode is just airing! Wait, what am I doing here then?
On the poll, I think Slint got the worse burn because he has to face those men every day.
Also, Kevan Lannister: we met him in season 1 when Tyrion joined his father's camp after escaping the Eyrie and joining up with the hill tribes. I think he might have been at Harrenhall when Tywin was resident there, too.
Slint won't be facing those men for much longer.....
Wow, they really go all out with the recording on these GoT discussions. How many cameras do they have running at once? I've counting 6.
Did anybody else like that they kept the little Mormont girl's letter ? Bear Island knows no king, but the King in the North, whose name is Stark! I also liked that it made Jon smile for once.
I love this bar conversation type of setting. And I always enjoy the GoT reviews.
Glad to see Dr Bashir in this episode! Been waiting for you for a while, buddy!
Janos Slynt got lit up (verbally) the most. Peter Baelish is a smart skeemer ready to find weaknesses in anyone. Sam is a fairly meek person not really ready to confront people. So Sam shaming arguably the 2nd most influential person in the Nights Watch at that point in front of everyone was unexpectedly bold and therein terribly insulting.
I liked Tyron's and Vayris convo about being good at being the number two guy, but really wanting to be number one.
It's weird how Cenk and Ben make fun of John for identifying the language as old ghiscari after they asked what it is. I know John acts like everything is cool (probably because Cenk is his employer) but he must be so annoyed by these two bullies.
I also wish they'd let John talk more. I feel like Ben interrupts John whenever he starts to say something. SO annoying. Especially since Ben adds very little value to these reviews.
Hans Maulwurf bullies? it was just banter between friends, stop being so sensitive.
Hans Maulwurf lol I like them all honesty. And their banter is hilarious. Old Ghiscari DOES sound like something I could order at a Gyro joint.
I know TYT is supposed to look very casual but clearly, whenever one person is paying another one, social dynamics are far from bantering between friends.
Hans Maulwurf I agree. And if they let him talk every once in a while it'd be a nice lesson. The Ghiscari, for example, were an empire in Essos founded before the Valyrian one, possibly the oldest civilization in the known world. It is equivalent to the Carthaginian Empire where Valyria is Rome.
These guys are so invested in their passion for game of thrones. I love it
you guys are way too hard on Sansa, she's getting there :D...
Le-Bron was a great name/line, loved that Cenk
Let the misogynist hating-on-women-without-military-prowess begin...you guys really need a few people who can actually interpret more internalized characters like Sansa on your team - the only characters you seem to understand and like are flashy, easy-to-read characters like Arya and Dany (not that I have anything against Arya, I love her)
Amrita Saha Yeah, it's not like that up until the very end of the last season she was a boring character that has acted like nothing but a child.
Let's review shall we... She gets Mycah, the butcher's son who was playing with Arya, killed for no reason but to gain favor with Joffrey, but she's more upset about her wolf getting killed. She sells out Ned when he tries to get his family out of King's Landing, and thus starts a chain of events that causes her own downfall. She mopes around for 3 more seasons basically just being sad and boring. Then, she finally catches some good luck by marrying one of the few decent people in all of Westeros, Tyrion, but she's still too moronic to take advantage of the situation. Finally, only after almost being thrown out of a fucking moon door by her insane aunt, does she get the fact that perhaps it might be in her best interest to not be a stupid bastard....
So, yeah, everyone must hate her for having a vagina and not being able to fight. It certainly has nothing to do with the fact that she's was a horrible person that deserved everything she got since she caused most of it and was monumentally boring all the while. I mean who could possibly enjoy someone with a vagina and no ability to fight, everyone hates that dead bitch Caitlin Stark, who could stand that mousy little annoyance that is Gilly, and let's not even get started with that tart Margery Tyrell... It most certainly must be the fact that Sansa doesn't have a penis and is unable to fight, clearly it has nothing to do with how shitty and boring a character she was up until the very end of last season.
+aprisia Uhm, what? Mycah's death was not Sansa's fault, it was Cersei's. I'm no longer surprised by these "arguments" people lresent to hate on Sansa. Really, it's stupid. She didn't sell out her father. Selling out means that she knew her father would die with her actions, which she didn't. She begged for Ned's life, obviously she didn't want her father dead. Ned's death was his own fault. And I think you would be crying too, if your family members keep on dying by the hands of your captors, without being able to do anything about it.
+aprisia And marrying Tyrion was an advantage? Really? Yeah, because Tyrion would throw everything away to help her escape King's Landing? Sansa is not stupid to trust a Lannister. We as spectators know that Tyrion has good intentions towards her, but Sansa doesn't. And the logical choice in her situation is to not trust anyone, much less a Lannister.
WILTALK I never implied anything about women characters in general - the opposite, in fact. The reviewers seem to only endorse one form of "cool" womanhood which is the physical weapon-wielding, openly defiant sort of character (ie. Arya, Dany, Brienne) and they seem to be very derisive of the rest - in this case, women like Sansa who find ways to survive within the mold of patriarchy rather than playing outside the box.
Amrita Saha To be fair, the show likes those women the best, too. I don't get the sense that either GRRM or the showrunners really appreciate femininity that much; their most likeable female characters are the ones who can fight like a man. We'll see how Sansa turns out, I guess. Maybe they can do a good job with her.
In regards the "Dragons / Nukes" are the wrong move: there was a history class I took (and failed) where the professor was talking about Alexander the Great. He'd gone far afield with his conquering, when word came back to him that some of the governments he'd installed were getting out of hand (or the populace was, I disremember) and so what did he do? He went back, sacked his own cities, sold the captives into slavery or executed them as depending. And guess what? All those other misbehaving cities or cities that were thinking about misbehaving? They did a rethink.
Counterpoint - AFTER Alexander died (at 25, 27? GG dude) everything fell into chaos. So it's a strategy that only works so long as you have a sizeable force that's loyal to you AND so long as you have that ferocity of reputation for enforcing your dictum. :shrugs
I'm pretty sure Daenerys was speaking Valyrian in this episode because she was using the "blah blah blah 'zdaor" grammar (which is one of the most memorable things for me about Valyrian).
I'm a book reader myself and if someone asked who's the smartest member of the stark family my answer will always be Sansa!..only a average TV watcher and a misogynist like cenk will call Sansa stupid.All he needs to do is go back to seasons/books 1-4 and realize that all this time she has been the only stark that was adapting and learning from her environment and using it for her survival without the need for sword and violence which is something all the arya fanboys love.cenk has extremely poor critical thinking skills,we all saw that in his Sam Harris interview.
I loved the Chekhov's dragons reference.
I don't get Matt's hate of Jorah. For someone who has read the books and watched the show he seems to have forgotten a lot on how the story has developed.
We have to remember when this thing started Daenaerys was just a chess piece to get Drogo's army. Her brother was the heir not her. No one knew of her abilities until she grew into them. Jorah was spying on her brother originally who was a shit no one cared about. He sent a message off about her pregnancy while her brother was still alive after all.
Jorah fell into the spying business because he loved his wife and wanted to keep her happy. He sold poachers to slavers - poachers ie people hunting illegally on his land not some innocent farmers. Had he killed them would Ned have wanted him dead thus forcing him to flee into exile?
Jorah had the opportunity to let Daenaerys be poisoned which means Varys couldn't have been on her side at that time. She was pregnant with Drogo's baby at the time so unless Jorah was into preggers he could have just taken the offer and got his lands and titles back rather than standing by someone's else wife who at that particular time had little or no chance of seizing the throne since her husband was not in the slightest bit interested up until then.
I think he grew to respect her when she showed she was not just a waif to be tossed around and over time that respect grew into love.
Look at what the poor bastard went thru for her.
*He threw away his pardon and a chance to get his lordship back in order to save her life when she was another man's wife and pregnant at that. Like I said at that time she was only destined to be the wife and mother of Dothraki chieftains and Jorah just a lackey.
*He fought and killed a Dothraki champion while Daenaerys tried to save that husband.
*He trekked thru a freaking desert where they could have died while helping to keep Daenaerys alive.
*He went against his own advice for caution to follow Daenaerys which could have got them killed 10 times over
*He helped overthrow Yunkai allied with a suspicious guy who could have betrayed and killed him
*He advised her at several turns to be merciful
I think all the things he did to keep her alive and his counsel more than make up for his small amount of spying much of it when her brother was still alive.
Dany cud have punish him only 10 yrs, but that wud have populist measure and against her earlier statement "law is law". Also, by ensuring fairness in laws, some of the members of harpy (or secret council of former masters) cud break away to join Dany, and so reducing the threat of rebel.
Also, Dany is not in hurry like Robb, to attack kings landing. So, she cud invest her time to implement laws, instead of choosing need of keeping ppl on her side at time of war.
Cenk the hissing was not to Dany, if you looked close the hissing was directed toward the slave masters, and that was confirmed when they threw rocks at them and not Dany.
I once read a fantastic theory, that Barristan Selmy will end up doing what Jaime Lannister did and will kill Danerys to stop her from using her dragons to burn King's Landing when the people resist her rule.
This would bring an excellent tragic end to the Danerys saga and would also be a perfect conclusion to Barristan Selmy's storyline.
FYI, Kevan was in series one at the war meeting they had (a few of them).
Kevan Lannister appears in season 1 in the scene with Tywin and Tyrion in the tent.
The brother of Tywin did come out before. In season 1 briefly, before the Lannisters battled the Starks.
I can never stop giggling when Maester Aemon speaks, since he sounds so much like Bane from The Dark Knight Rises.
Its great to have John's wider lore knowledge on this show... it keeps things from going to far out in terms of predictions.
Info to Ben's point about "make up language" and refilming scenes if she says "you didn't" when she was supposed to say "you did". I started paying attention to her Valyrian when I took some linguistics classes a few years back (season 3, I think).
Negation appears as the suffix -daor when Denaerys speaks Valyrian.
Same goes for Melisandre's Valyrian conversation with Thoros of Myr as well.
being named a stark and lord of winterfell by someone other than who he believes was his father if much more empty than having a king he doesn't believe is king as he said before name him stark and lord just to get him to fight.
My theory is that by the end, a new manifestation of The Seven will be the major force of change. Arya is the strongest piece of evidence for this: neither male nor female, with a constantly changing face, a foreigner in strange lands, and Death personified
Ben, will you please try to remember the names? It's not that hard. Just put in a little time and effort. That would be greatly appreciated. :)
I don't think any of you guys mentionned it, but the Night's Watch is the only democracy pretty much everywhere in GoT. Daenerys told the Unsullied generals to choose one among them to represent them, but from what I gather, it was only the generals who chose, while in the Night's Watch, everyone, from the lowliest of recruit to the Maester, has one vote.
"Nothing is any good to dead men." Aria got that from the Hound when he explained why he took the silver from the Farmer and daughter.
The current changes from the books have me worried, but they have done a great job so far, so here's hoping!
Pretty pissed off that they haven't shown anything of Theon yet, his chapters were the highlight of dance with dragons.
Aryas wolf is alive it has a whole army of dire wolves. In the book arya has dreams where she's running as a wolf through the forest and eating freys. That's her warning into nymeria. I hope the show includes that story
Agree that GoT is about the Stark heirs as central to the series. I sort of see Sansa surviving the way she's learned how just as Arya is - except one has no honor and the other acts with nothing but honor. No? LOVE the idea that Arya kills The Mountain! NICE!
i actually liked this episode so much. far better than the first one. probably cause we see bravos and dorne finally.
Does anyone else find watching Game of Thrones a slightly more uncomfortable experience after all the ISIS stuff that's happened? - the beheaded dwarf, mance being burned alive, the sparrows (religious fanatics) from the Sept etc.
James Hart I think if it's uncomfortable, then the original author and the showrunners are doing a good job. They're telling a pretty realistic and tragic story.
James Hart Well the stuff with Dany is probably intended to reflect Iraq. Even the name Mereens aka Marines.
John Snow saw the White Walker with is own eyes he know that being John Stark is irrelevant. Saying to Stannis he as to keep is vow is more an excuse than anything else he know the threat of White Walker is real and the Bolton are just secondary important.
When Stannis told Jon Snow he would make him Jon "Stark" I was overwhelmed with the feels. That was a big fucking moment and I can't believe he turned it down. I was like nooooo get revenge.
"Kevan? His name is Kevan? How ridiculous!" *laughs profusely at the name.*
So guys, did you forget about Robert, Robb, Robin, Jon, Gregor, Ned, Karl and Sam?
Huh. I never knew that his name wasn't just 'Alexander Siddig'.
But he is fantastic.
SPOILER!
Sansa, once again engaged to a depraved psychopath. This time I hope she fairs better than in kings landing. I don't understand all the hate for her, because i think she acted how anyone else would act in a situation were you're surrounded by people who despise you, and plus you having no power. Based on her mentor and her personality, she will obviously develop a political cunning. She'll be a bad ass in a different way than her sister.
I read all the books and I'm starting to think that Cenk read them all too and not telling us, because he's always so close to whats actually going to happen.
Sheesh Kevan Lannister was CLEARLY in S1&2 helping Tywin (HIS BROTHER) out in the war fields & Harrenhal
Dont know if this was mentioned by any chance but there was a lot of snake symbolism in this episode. The box Jamie opens at the start had a pendant hanging on a snake ornament - Dora of Dorn? was waearing a snake bracelet -When Gillie is learning how to read she feels the S and says S an in snake and the hissing at the end towards Danaerys. Just thought Id point that out.
cenk...i think jon has been refining his leadership skills as every season/book goes by. it's almost as if he is climbing the ranks as the series hero or almost as the king.
I don't get Cenk's hate-on for Sansa. Like..I'm not sure what she is *supposed* to do exactly? Did they expect her to roll in the mud and escape King Landing like Arya? That isn't how her character is. She was raised singing an doing needle work. She wouldn't survive on her own out in the wild and its not like she has many people to turn to for help.
I think Prince Doran could become a compelling new character on the show, just from the little we've seen of him.
The couch format was better
if people really think Arya is going to be on a Kill Bill trip... well they had tomatoes on their eyes for the last 4 Seasons.
Jon Snow turned Stanis down. Doesn't mean it couldn't be offered again though. Down the line events could change to prompt Jon to change his mind. Winter coming could change what is relevant at that time.
The close up shots are awkward >.>
Well, Jon leaving the Night's Watch wasn't an option to begin with. He swore an oath to the old gods and he is the kind of guy who believes that it would have consequences if he betrayed them. Plus I don't know if there has ever been somebody leaving the Night's Watch with their honor intact. It might be that none of the Northerners accepted a deserting crow if he went on calling himself Stark and ruling over them just because one of the usurping kings declared him to be in charge.
I find it funny how opinions change depending on the character. because Dany killed a man who committed a crime and John killed a guy because he did not want to obey but in some way John did the right thing and Dany is lost and can not rule a city.