Be sure to check out my other videos on ebike law: Throttle law: ruclips.net/video/YSSVDMgpgBM/видео.html Speed Law: ruclips.net/video/DGv7p9nptco/видео.html Something I realised when watching the video: Mid drive motors don't actually push the crank arms. I.e. they don't spin around when you pull the throttle 😂😂
On the one my Mum Bought me before she passed away last year i get good hill starts without wobbling all over the place and hearing screeching brakes behind me as jonny boy racer flies by 500w should be acceptable still only does 15.6 MPH but does not get me nearly mowed over because i go straight instead of wonky, if you know what i mean arry. OK granted 2000w motors and break yer neck speed should remain ruled out but 500 w motors just gives you that extra get out of trouble from the start, without wobling especilly for us older folks....And tell that bloody Mike Graham from Talk TV, i don't miss his rants about Cyclists, tell him "on yer bike"
I've been riding a 1500w converted MTB for the last 3 years and covered over 7k commuting to work 30 miles a day. If I could get it insured and registered as an Ebike I would, But it's no motor bike or scooter. Relying on the motor only as a registered motorbike puts me in danger from fellow traffic users, especially when you add all the extras needed to get it through the test. It only travels at a decent speed because I use my legs to assist. There needs to be some middle ground and I will follow it to the letter.
@@raymondo162 yes, and he's talking primarily about hub-motor 'urban' bikes here, not your typical eMTB which has a mid-drive motor and a wide range of gears to maximise the torque output from what is still nominally a 250w motor - although he mentions that briefly, this video really isn't relevant with regard to a typical Class-1 e-bike from a mainstream manufacturer.
@@PaulJakma No, they are given the somewhat difficult portmanteau of "pedelec" - an electrically assisted bicycle which must be pedalled for the motor to deliver power. Mopeds are limited class motorcycles (speed and power output) which must be able to be pedalled, but are not required to be pedalled in order to travel under power. In the UK, mopeds also require registration plates, insurance, driving license, MOT if older than 3 years, and you need to be older than 16 to ride one...
I had the exact same thoughts some time ago. While I totally get the speed limit (even though it personally annoys me), the power limit makes no sense at all. You can drag the argument even further: a very lightweight person of lets say 50kg bodyweight will have a wildly different experience than a 120kg person with the exact same bike and motor.
And even further to that. We have an e-cargo-bike. 2 or 3 kids (or other cargo like parcel delivery, road help, dogs) easily make the whole thing including rider up to 200kg. Still it is limited at 250 Watts. It is a great option for many households in urban areas but some hills or wind would make it very hard for the little motor.
@@corese75well what do you expect? they make rules on individual basis? the chaos that would cause. I'm not gonna lie, as much as I want to go fast, even the 15.5mph on a bicycle feels more than enough.
@@raulstl2891The safety and rule could be quite simple. 25kph/16mph max. Normal engineering would pick a smaller motor for light weight efficiency and big heavy (cargo) bikes can have stronger motors if they like. 25kph max.. For example in NL for 40 years 25kph was the limit for mopeds without helmet, power was not really regulated, the speedlimit was the hard rule. 15.5mph is okay but not for everybody. Here in NL people sometimes do 20 mile commutes and then they go for 28mph/45kph ebikes that have some extra rules for insurance, plates and helmet. You do have to pedal quite hard for the top speed and they are crazy expensive. Cargo versions that do 45kph don't exists.
...... Do you know Jesus Christ can set you free from sins and save you from hell today Jesus Christ is the only hope in this world no other gods will lead you to heaven There is no security or hope with out Jesus Christ in this world come and repent of all sins today Today is the day of salvation come to the loving savior Today repent and do not go to hell Come to Jesus Christ today Jesus Christ is only way to heaven Repent and follow him today seek his heart Jesus Christ can fill the emptiness he can fill the void Heaven and hell is real cone to the loving savior today Today is the day of salvation tomorrow might be to late come to the loving savior today Romans 6.23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. John 3:16-21 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Mark 1.15 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Hebrews 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Jesus
The problem as always is the idiots. We could do away with lots of rules and regulations if it wasn't for idiots. Unfortunately, we are stuck with them☹️
Maybe there will be a new profession and hire ebike police. Add the wattage so heavy riders can get up hills but make the laws tough on those that misride and do stupid things .
This law is ridiculous. I weigh 320 lbs and am over 6 foot tall. I am a veteran and was injured. I have a bad knee and fit into the examples you give. I can't walk up the hill and the bike can assist me with gearing. 250 watts does nothing for me. How dare they decide for me where I am allowed to travel! I am building my own e bike.
the trueley mind boggling part you could get what is essentially a motorised tent that goes 10 mph and drive it on the pavement and in the shops forcing other pedestrians to have to walk in the road to let you past and squeeze around you in shops and that would somehow be legal
Well. You can first stop being deliberately disingenuous. Nobody decided for you where you can travel. You can travel anywhere you fucking like. What they have done (if you talk about that instead of the bullshit you came out with) is set a law that allows pedal assisted bicycles that don’t output more than 250w of continuous power. As with any law there’s people that fall outside of the intended scope of that law. There’s also people that fall within the scope of the law (the majority). You mention you’re 320lbs, it seems to be and most likely everyone else around you that you are fully able to do something about your weight problem. Or just use a different type of vehicle like anyone else that needs a vehicle more suited to a hugely overweight person. Seems to me that you’re trying to bend something that isn’t for a purpose to your own purpose which it’s really not intended for.
I dont have an ebike, i am 60 And on my road bike i consitantly avg more than 15mph even with a few hills , i also have a power meter its easy to do 20mph at less than 200w especially if you have a tail wind. So i think the speed limit should be 18-20mph so the less fit could keep up.
The thing is, someone who can maintain 20 mph on a bicycle on the flats almost certainly has at least a couple of years of cycling experience, and they built up to being able to do that speed. They started probably doing more like 12 to 15mph on the flats, and slowly got stronger - and they built up experience of the roads with it, and they made their initial mistakes at lower speeds. The problem with selling 500W, 20mph+ eBikes to Joe-hasn't-cycled-much-ever is they're instantly zooming around at speeds that hurt a lot more, but their brains havn't had the time to wire up for spotting risks and building reactions to common dangers.
@@reddaB that's just rubbish the survival rate when hit by a car at 20mph is 97% a cyclist has 15 times less mass . And the cycle paths already have cyclists doing 20mph. Also most cycling is done on the road as there just aren't that many cycle paths.
Two years in from having nearly half my heart replaced, and being fit enough to ride my mtb, I thought I'd upgrade it or swap it in for an ebike version. Then I found out what a shatshow the politicians have made of encouraging us to get on our bikes and save the planet. Well done Westminster, you bunch of plumbs.
Well they can't have people using the roads and NOT paying them for the privilege like car drivers have to. It's like with Electric Cars and Zero road tax, they're now planning to reintroduce the road tax on them, why? Loss of revenue. EDIT There is only one sure method of saving the planet. Get rid of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, ALL OF THEM. ;-)
Tbh I wouldn't worry too much. There are plenty of powerful ebikes available to us in the UK. As long as you're not going mad you'll be fine And if you told them about your health and why you need it then it's going to take a stone hearted officer to do anything to you.
With regards to the 15mph speedlimit it should be higher as we can generally all ride around 20mph without any issue. But the main issue is I have is when you hit 15mph it can be like hitting a wall as the motor cuts off, it would be great to see the power assistance drop off slowly maybe as you get closer to 20mph.
Thats weird it doesn't happen on mine, at peak voltage @250w motor 48v, its provided even little power at 17mph with pedalling as it slowly backs off, sometimes I've hit 18.5mph before it comepletly cut off a few times
If the government are serious about getting commuters on bikes they need to sort this out and raise the power levels to enable people to go up a reasonable slope at 15mph and 5mph up a steep hill. Otherwise the millions that councils have spent on cycle lanes will be a total waste of money. Do Uber eat delivery people have power dispensation or are they just taking the piss?
You don't need more than 250w, who ever tells you you need more than that has never actually looked how much power average bicycle commuter can make. For what he is complains in video you need torque. Hill climb and acceleration requires torque. And even then these bikes have plenty. If you want more then get a drivers license. Be leave it or not, these rules are in place so that those who haven't shown prof of competence and good working order ( read drivers license and registration, insurance...) don't have too much power to do serious harm.
500watt motor goes up a pretty steep hill at 20kph, with pedaling. No chance to get the world on to ebikes for commuting at 250watt/15mph limit. I wouldn't have bought my ebike, if those were the limits in Canada. 750watt is the limit. Can have a throttle but must also have pedal assist. Love mine, barely drive for basic getting around.
@@fulconandroadcone9488 why should people have to spend thousands more to get up hills or ride against the wind? Why should old people be barred from cycling because of what younger potential law breakers might do?
@@utubeape Why would they need as much power as armature cyclists? I have no problems with any of that and I'm sure I'm not able to output 250W for any significant amount of time.
@@fulconandroadcone9488 people have different fitness levels, and weather conditions as well as terrain affects the ability to travel, and also at the end of the day what harm does it do to have more power?
Well here in Finland you can have nominal 1000W ebike with throttle but it is still limited to 25 kmh with motor but you can pedal faster and you can get some nice speed at downhills.
@@Hoggdoc1946 Most people cannot pedal beyond 15 or so mph with any consistency, so speed limits are kind of silly for regular bikes. E-Bikes, however, can easily be operated at 20mph with very little effort and pose a lot of dangers when used on pedestrian paths.
The higher the power, the closer these things come to simply being electric motorcycles. I see "e-bikes" regularly on our bike path and nobody bothers to pedal them at all. If motorcycles must be registered and stay on the streets, the same should apply to "e-bikes" that don't need to be pedaled.
It's quite simple really - the Class 1 pedal-assist regulations: 250w max power, no throttle and assistance limited to 15.5 or 20mph (depending on the market) are specifically for e-bikes which are going to be used where regular bicycle are, just with a bit of assistance to your pedal input. There are any number of other electrically powered bikes out there - some which meet the Class 2 category (additional throttle, but limited 'assisted' speed still) and Class 3 (no throttle, but up to 45kph), together with any number of home-brew kit bikes with throttles and much more powerful motors if that is what you want... But those increasingly blur the lines between an 'assisted' bicycle (ie. fundamentally where you still have to pedal) and a full electrically powered 'motorbike' which is a very different style of vehicle - and if they start to be used on regular bike trails (where Class 1 are currently allowed) you are almost inevitably going to mess it up for everyone.
you're forgetting the stealth bomber: a e-bike for the highway (72V 17 KW 50-60 mph) with its full registration as an electric motorcycle with pedal assist.
Try reading the actual regs. There isn't a 250w limit. Just the requirement that the motor be labeled as such and can produce 250w continuosly in thermal equilibrium. Full fat e-mtb's are now producing 90nm of torque which equates to about 800W. The way the regs are presented is a joke.
Then they would produce at least around twice that at 0 rpm. Probably more like 3 to 4 times that. That would be ridicolous. Have you ever produced that amount of torque? That would send you flying. That is 14.5 kph at a 10% Grade At 100kg System weight. That is incredibly fast. And would probably overturn you. Let's add a small torque calculation to this to illustrate that: Let's say your center of mass is around 430mm forward of the rear axle. You weigh 100kg with the bike. This results in righting torque of around 430nm. On Flat ground. Now let's say you're 500mm above the axles, which is reasonable as well. On that 10% Grade. Now that is 377 Nm. Which is questionable. If you take a peak load you will get more upturning force than righting force. This is a very fragile system. And i was a bit conservative with my calculations. And took the bottom Bracket as the horizontal distance, and the top chord as the vertical axis. If you go a bit more agressive, and use this calculator: www.biketrekking.de/ausruestung/fahrrad_statik.htm You will get to regimes, where you will turn over your bike. With those motors.
Agree, 250W is too low. Also agree with your observation that that rated watts isn't accurate. Power is not a bad way to regulate, it works ok in the world of motorcycles. I would suggest 750W is a reasonable limit. I pick this number because horses are still legal and they possess one, um, horsepower. And 750W is about 1hp. But sure, if the UK insists on keeping everyone safe and slow, the speed restriction is the most effective way to do that. 15.5mph is too slow; I think 20mph is a reasonable limit.
That is fine 750W max output limited to 20 mph but requires Registration plate, Driving Licence, helmet, MOT and insurance. At 15.5mph you are faster than the average cyclist speed which is more like 10 - 12mph 250W is enough power to push 85KG total weight up a 20% hill at approx. 5mph. and don't forget that is 250W on top of what the rider can do, so in lots of cases, a combined power of 500W+ for short periods.
@@patrikfloding7985 the gears argument doesn't really come into the equation watts are watts gearing those watts only changes torque which is very different
@@EoPArceye Yea, I am in Canada. Non of what you stated applies. No plate, insurance etc. Supposed to wear a helmet but I have never had a bike helmet, and I am not about to get one. 10,000km later on my 500watt 32kph speed, along with pedal assist and throttle. 750watt is the limit. If I want more power I would just jump on my motorcycle.
Just a small point - you repeatedly say 'maximum power of 250w' whereas EN15194 uses the term 'maximum CONTINUOUS power' which is rather a different thing and hence why peak, short term powers greater than 250w are seen on perfectly legal EPACs. And input power (to the motor) is not the same as the output power and I'm not clear whether the 250w figure applies to input or output power, hmm! Anyway, it all needs sorting out for sure - keep up the good work.
Canada here I just bought an e bike with a 250 w motor on the front wheel and a 350 w motor on the rear. You can use them individually or both at the same time. Great bike
@@ginkinky Here is a link to your rules in BC, same as ours in Ontario. From what i see BC rules are much stronger than Ontario...if it does not look like a normal bike it's not, it's an electric motorcycle. This is about the scooter type bikes. www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/transportation/driving-and-cycling/cycling/e-bike-rules-of-the-road
Yeah, but also the same types of bikes are sold all over the world with throttles and it's fine, that's the point of the video. Just because you call it something, doesn't justify restricting a feature that is possible and valuable for no good reason.
As someone from Scotland, the power limit especially proves that the individuals in charge of these laws are the type who live in London and only think about London. Honestly, the same goes for the speed limit. If you are travelling at 15.5mph, it doesn't matter what road you are on, EVERY car will overtake you (except in London, of course!). Quite frankly, for a method of transport that is supposed to help timid cyclists out the door who wouldn't normally ride a bike, being forced to have every car still overtake you feels like another form of indirect bullying from Westminster for anyone who doesn't live in their 20-mile catchment bubble. In my humble opinion. Laws like these are made to be broken. However, common sense should always still apply! Feel exactly the same about E-Scooters. I am glad to see videos such as yours.
This is why I bought a dual motor fat bike lol. On my commute there is a 1.5 mile long incline that is 15% or so. When I had a 250w I could get up it with myself also pedalling at around 4-5mph. Which was utterly woeful and very scary if a car came behind me. Since getting my new bike I can ride up that same hill at 19mph with me pedalling a tiny bit. If I lived in London I’d be perfectly happy with 250w but the reality for many of us is that amount of power is not suitable for where we live. I don’t get any cars attempting dangerous overtakes anymore as I can travel a little above the 30mph limits. Not concerned about being pulled over by the police, my local force don’t bother seizing them.
Agreeing on a lot of points here Motorcyclist, injured in accident, can't pedal analogue bike due to injuries, but do now have & love my 250w ebike. Points for me as 60+yr old, london ebike rider, ex biker (for now) and car driver * Max 20mph on many of our roads, not being able to match that speed on assistance with ebike, is an accident waiting to happen with the constant overtaking, then passing the same vehicle repeatedly in traffic * Throttle speed is a necessity for me, and many others who physically cant propel themselves from a standstill * Ebike has given me improved independent mobility once more. * I get the pleasure of riding & some healthy exercise. * With a better spread of power & torque ebikes could be a sensible solution for many others like myself. I agree with the majority of video points. But I can see issues as mentioned in some comments 20mph & throttle limit of 15mph be a good start for me.
Made it to the end. I agree they should be speed limited, not power limited, but 15.5 mph is too slow. Needs to be at least 20 mph, primarily so we don’t slow cars down any further in built up areas.
If I fit a befang 250w which I'm assuming is limited to 15.5mph and only use the assist mode and no power mode is it road legal as it also has a throttle mode?
I mean it's pointless and unnecessary, but that's the British government for ya. Probably why Engwe etc do mostly online sales, as the restrictions are idiotic. Don't expect the laws to change in our lifetime, some might start actually registering and insuring their eBikes so they can abide, especially when 72v 50ah batteries become the norm.
The country is lost, just haven't the roads for the traffic we have now ,holes everywhere, everything is falling apart 😅 ,ignore all their crap they certainly don't listen to anyone paying Taxes and repairing anything, can't even cross a side street the other day ,we got 2 million more uninsured migrants lmno ,can't drive for shite
I'm Electronics technician, motor of 250W is 250W. You cannot get more power because motors themselves draw current they need to operate (as anything), and if they could coils in motor would burn out from higher Amps - overload. Amp-hours are units of current storage capacity and how long will e-bike run. I believe the thing to also consider before buying an e-bike is unit of torque (also called moment) Nm.
Hi thanks for the video so I have a mobility issue and I could really do with having my old bike converted to an e-bike and I don't want to get done by the law but I definitely don't want the 250 w motor, I want to do at least 350 because I want to get Hills so are there any loopholes in the law that would allow me to do this thank you😊
I can average 16-17mph over an hour, so the friction and/or weight of a legal motor would slow me down. I think 20-25mph would be a safer speed limit, more inline with the speeds of traffic in residential areas. Fewer overtakes, more safeties.
I don't know I commute every day but I could see alot of time where if I had the extra speed people would still pass but slam on the brakes infront of you as they have misjudged your speed.
You are correct, The Law could limit the top speed but not the maximum power, over the speed limit the power to the motor could just be cut off. This would also be easy to regulate since all that would be necessary would be for the Police to take it for a ride to test it.
Well the US and EU have a higher allowance than we do and we don't really make any motorbikes, plus a 17 year old has access to over 11,000w of power, so our Government could still limit us to 3000w and we would be fine though a motorbike would still eat us for breakfast
It's to keep them from being used as unlicensed motorcycles, but the UK limits are far lower than they need be, the US and EU limits are reasonable to maintain the distinction between ebike (no license, registration, insurance needed can use bike paths and some MTB trails) and motorcycle (license and endorsement, registration, insurance required can only be operated on roads and motorized trails).
Agree with this video 100%. I loved riding bikes when I was younger, but I now have arthritis and require two knee replacements, and C19 left me with a heart condition. Somedays I'm able to get out and about, other days I'm not. An ebike with a twist or thumb "throttle" and enough power to haul my bloated and ageing carcass around at a steady 15mph would be great!!
Wisper bikes based in Kent sell bikes with a throttle that can do the legal 15mph speed and they are completely legal in the UK. They have each bike DVSA certified with a certificate.
@@poprin5194 Very interesting.............. Don't see the point of jumping through those hoops and paying the money, when you could just ghost pedal on a cadence sensensing bafang - if you are that desperate for a moped.
Even on power mode one or two, the gearing is not high enough to help the motor except up hills. I need to find a way to change the hub gears on my Fortis e-bike.
As I recall, the power limit applies to continuous power which means that short term peaks can be much higher than 250 watts. Also some manufacturers rationalise their product range to reduce costs, I remember an old story that one company simply stuck "250 watt" labels on a pre-existing 350 watt motor. A motor will pretty well take as much power as you give it until it either burns out, or suffers mechanical damage through over-torque so its all a bit meaningless anyway when considering short term power applications. Its also unclear whether the limit applies to electrical input power, or mechanical output power. Just proves that the law wasn't written by anyone with engineering knowledge.
That maybe how it is interpreted, But it's NOT how it's worded, and YES anyone with any engineering knowledge will be able to tell you that it is not possible to enforce in it's current form. As Scotty was wont to say "Ye cannae change the laws of physics".
The law does not regulate the maximum theoretical power of the motor, it regulates the maximum mechanical output of the controller/motor combination. Thus it is perfectly legal to put a motor capable of delivering 1 kW into an eBike, but the controller must be limited so that no more than 250W of mechanical power output is produced. It doesn't matter if 250W of electrical energy is used to deliver it (that's a matter of efficiency). The reason a lot of those hub-motor eBikes can't climb that hill is because they can't produce enough torque at low RPM, so they aren't able to deliver 250W at walking pace. Bigger motors can be used to deliver the required torque (although they weigh and cost more), yet not exceed the 250W mechanical output power with the appropriate limiters (which is why some eBikes can be de-limited to deliver four or more times their legal limit).
Those restrictions would drive me nuts. I normally ride at 20MPH especially in the warmer weather. And use the twist grip throttle all the time when taking off from a stop BEFORE pedaling. And sometimes to get off of heavier traffic roads, I'll crank up to the max speed of 32MPH just to get off those roads ASAP.
@@Wildernessoutside Power=torque x degrees of revolution. O a 4 stroke, that's 720 degrees as power is produced only once in every two revolutions. The OP does not need gaziollions of revs, he needs low revs and high torque. .
I totally agree with you. I have bad knees and hips but I would like to stay health, e-bikes are helping me to do that but I have to stay on flat roads (which are limited). Thank you for a very informative and sensible vlog.
As a motor cyclist, I agree about the throttle but the speed and power should be restricted, otherwise the roads would be full of untrained and dangerous riders, the e bikes have already become a nuisance on the canal towpath near me but legally the towpath is not public road
Definitely valid points. I think bikes should be allowed say 750w but pretty much the same performance (15.5 though I'd prefer 19) but the ability to do it no matter the land. Or even up hills at 5mph. Better than not being able to get up at all. Problem is more power means people can unlock if manufacturers choose to let them. But then no matter the law there will always be the mad towpath riders.
As an ebike cyclist , car dr8ver & motorcyclist , walkers & conventionional cyclists have become a nuisance on local canal paths , standing in the way - or pedaling past us e-bikers @ more than 15.5 mph without slowing down as they don't want to loose speed they need to build back up . Its all a matter of perspective. Comments like yours with a narrow mind are becoming a problem. There are much more choices of transportation now & should be embraced , if someone can do a vehicle journey on a surron type bike that would otherwise mean using a 2 ton vehicle for then that is surely better as in efficiency
@@michwoz cars are restricted to persons who have passed a competency test and have third party insurance unlike the electric motorcycles that are now appearing, capable of speeds in excess of 30 miles an hour, and driven along pedestrian paths, the law is fairly straightforward, under 15 mph and 250w, no problems and I completely agree with that, but if you want to do more it must be registered as an electric motorcycle and rode as per all other motorised vehicles ie insured and by a competent person, what part of that do you not understand?
@@vobchopper Yeah. These competency tests are joke. Incompetent people are passing them with no big problems. The limits for e-bikes should be enforced by laws and signs, not technical limitations making this very effective mean of transportation practically obsolete. I do think some technical parameters should differentiate e-bikes from motorbikes but not at the absurd level it is now. Simply put current rules are too strict, too limiting and unreasonable.
Old people like me vote and all hell would break lose if they tried passing anything so restrictive here in the US.. I live in FL where hills are relatively wimpy where they exist at all but, still, IMO 750W is about the minimum needed if you want to do much more than tool around the RV park. Do they not haul cargo on ebikes there? WTF are you gonna do when you need to carry any weight?
I live on exmoor the big hills are joined together by small hills not much flat ground , I had a 250watt bike and all it did on hills was off set the weight of the motor and battery on the hills . I was better off with a light weight hybrid
In the Netherlands it is all about not having to wear a helmet. If you go above the 25 km/h, you are considered a moped and you have to wear a helmet. In Holland we don't like to wear helmets. we never do on bicycles.
You make some great points. The only reason I can think of for the power limit is that it is easier to govern than speed. However, as you say, allowing manufacturers to include modes which exceed this does undermine this.
Well license it for road use and then you don't really have speed limit, ride on bike lanes where people go at most 15kmph or pedestrians which is 5kmph and you better be restricted.
Can you please clarify: at 3:47 it appears you're pedaling, thus I assumed it was an eBike. However, a few moments later when you stopped and stood still it looked like a moped or scooter. So was that vehicle an eBike or scooter?
Totally agree with your comments. I live in Wales, where there are more than a few steep hills. 250w is a ridiculous limitation. I'm toying with the idea of building a mid mount 250w mountain bike, but I still doubt that even in the lowest gear, the motor may just be too feeble to pull me up the steeper inclines. I currently have a 1500w hub motor fat tyre bike, and I have set the max speed as low as the controller will allow (20 mph). I rarely ride this bike for fear of being prosecuted, but when I do I hope that my self imposed slow speed, and common sense will prevent any issues arising, which so far has been the case. Not sure if I could swap out the controller for a better one that will allow a lower (15 mph) max speed to be set, but the hub motor is ideal for the level of assistance I need to remain mobile ( I'm 120 kg, 60 years old, and am suffering with long covid, and the after effects of a stroke). The law in this country really does need to be looked at in a sensible way, and maybe even apply categories to e-bikes like other countries do. I also think that all electrically propelled personal transport should be included so that e-scooters and e-monocycles can be used in public. The closed minded approach that UK regulators seem to adopt makes this country a laughing stock in the developing world where new technologies arise on an almost daily basis.
I live in Wales too and there are Ebikes that can’t get up a 25% gradient even with the rider assistance, I’m fortunate enough to be able to get up that gradient on my normal mtb but when I look on Strava the power output up that hill I was putting out just over 1,000watts to go 6mph up the steepest point.
With a hub motor, power is directly proportional to rear wheel speed, so as the bike slows down, the power drops. This means that you could easily make a 250W hub motor climb pretty much any hill because torque is proportional to phase current and not to input power! I have a "250W" Bosch Gen4 CX motor in my e mountain bike and that will literally get up anything! 250W is plenty!
If you want a throttle on an ebike then buy a Powabyke, they have a throttle because they were made prior to the introduction of ebike regulations. My first ebike was a Powabyke, main downside was they’re heavy & came with lead batteries. You could change the batteries but the frame is heavy.
@@paulfrost8952 if throttles were allowed more people would use ebikes & less would use cars, cars generate income for the government whereas ebikes don’t. My ebike helps me get some exercise & has improved my health, its helped me manage my fibromyalgia pain as well. Happy with pedal assist myself so a throttle isn’t something I want, essentially the government class an electric bike with a throttle as a motorcycle & I’ve seen some that are faster than cars locally.
@@iantheinventor8151 thank you for your answer. If that is the Government’s reason for prohibiting throttles. I think they’re missing out on the VAT they’d get from electricity and e-bike sales. I still can’t get my head around them not being on mobility scooters as my right arm doesn’t function very well and those wig-wags speed controllers are a pain to use, well for my thumb!
Not necessarily. Ebike brands manage to class their powerful ebikes as 250w when they're more powerful. If the motor says 750w you could still get into trouble especially if the bike is sold as a 750w ebike. You have no deniability. However if you do what you said... 1. You are EXTREMELY unlikely to get pulled unless you're on a bike that looks like a motorbike. And 2 by showing them that throttle doesn't work and it only goes about 16mph you're also EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to get into trouble. But there is always a possibility.
@@e-VRC have you ever had the crazybird jumper bike this claims to be a 250w but some people say it is a good one and doesn’t seem to lack power.thanks for the reply
Let's be honest: 20mph is hardly rapid. And if you can easily do more than that, either under your own steam or downhill with gravity assist, where is the logic in the 15.5mph limit? It seems entirely arbitrary and serves no real purpose at all.
I see e bikes with 1000 watt motors zipping around Swindon often. they are faster than mopeds so they should have a license and insurance. problem is there is no enforcement. even though they ride past the police station. I see your point that people using them for mobility should be able to get up the hills in their area.
I ride motorbikes and acoustic bikes but haven't owned an electric bike, have enjoyed them whenever I've tried them though. I think we could do with a "best of both worlds" ebike class that requires a little bit of training, be over 16 and have some kind of 3rd party insurance but can do up to say 20 or 25mph with up to a 1000W or so motor. Essentially just a little bit less than a 50cc moped. Crucially I think these should be allowed on bike paths, perhaps controversially I think you should still have to pedal them if you're going above walking pace too. I think it's good to require some level of effort in order to add speed to avoid having people whisky throttling if they're in a sticky situation with other path users etc. My main thinking is this would hopefully get some cars on the road and get people moving a bit more!
I get passed on my ebike by the proper lycra clad hardcore cyclists on their carbon fibre bikes far more times than an illegal ebike. Its no use limiting the technology to try to control peoples behavior
I have a quite expensive mid drive that originated on your side of the pond, but is spec'ed for sale in the US. So of course the speed is unlocked and will assist up to 28mph (45km). I like how you mentioned about the different motor types, because the difference between hub motors and mid drives is honestly night and day. I had a 750w (1,000w peak) hub motor ebike with a throttle, and that bike had issues with some hills. This new mid drive is a lowly 250w max, no throttle at all and I've yet to find a hill I can't pedal right up and over. It blows my mind sometimes. But then again it was more than 3x the cost of the hub motor ebike... and like you mentioned, that is an unfair barrier.
Not sure why people compare US vs European regulations on this issue, in US you don't have bike lanes or pedestrian lanes for that matter. Whilst here it is expected that you will ride your ebike on bike lanes or among pedestrians, not roads, may I repeat that, not on roads. 45kmph is fine in car traffic, way too much among pedestrians, hence why cars and pedestians don't mix.
There should be a law to get a limiting speed for E-bikes (not motor power), but to have a 3 way switch , level 1 is in crowded town areas with 15 mph (24km/h) that also has limited acceleration, to not flip the bike, or easily loose control from a powerful motor), then lv 2 is town bike lane and road side speed of 25mph (40km/h) , then outside the town, on communal roads we have lv 3 switch position for 50mph (80km/h) , but if you have a more powerful motor and a better frame that allows you to do more, then you should be able to, but with a motorcycle licence, and be able to go unlimited in level 4 , only limited by the motorcycle laws that you should respect. (So, first 3 levels should be standard and respected, and have an indicator light to show what level you are in, with standardized colors, so you could or couldn't be held liable depending on the case, and to be able to get any power motor you want, and only the speed to be limited.)
@@fulconandroadcone9488 am actually pretty sure bikes are road vehicles in EU. Either bike lanes or roads, but they do not belong on sidewalks (unless you are dismounted and walking next to it) I believe you can even get a fee in bunch of countries for being on the sidewalk on a bike if you are over 10 years old.
I think the problem has more to do with hub motors generally being very badly designed. Most of these products come straight from China and who knows how they speced that motor.
More power>faster acceleration>more dangerous/harder to control. Due to faster acceleration you spend more time at higher speeds, increasing the amount of time spent in danger: of losing control, higher collision energy, brake wear and/or fade, frame material fatigue, suspension wear level. This is also why learner motorcycles are power or power to weight ratio restricted.
Watched the whole video. I also agree with another comment that says assistance should taper off after 15.5mph up to say 18.5mph / 30kph. That small amount of extra assistance would make my 10 mile commute more viable. I also think a version of the German S Pedelec regs could be introduced here in UK with compulsory reg, helmet and, most importantly, insurance as a halfway point between ebikes and mopeds. UK Govt. could then at least give us the choice of a little more power and speed if we wanted it in a legitimate form.
Speed pedelecs already are legal here in UK on roads only. It’s just not worth it because insurance is usually 3rd party only and the faf of getting a number plate, have to wear a moped grade helmet.
Man....U.K. laws for e-bikes are insane!!! Y'all might as well not have e-bikes with that kind of nonsense for laws. I'm about to purchase an e-bike that can go 30MPH on throttle alone. It has a 52V, 60Ah battery connected to a 1000W nominal 1400W peak motor. It has an estimated 100 mile range on throttle, an 200+ miles on pedal assist. It's considered a class 3 e-bike. We don't need a license to operate them. My current e-bike is 250W and tops out at 17mph ungoverned with the stock controller.
As a Brit I fully agree. If the politicians want to try get rid of cars for more electric cars and bikes, then surely they should do everything possible to encourage more people to invest in e-bikes even compared to e-cars. 15mph is just too slow. If any pedestrian; child, adult or disabled gets ran over by an e-bike going under 30mph then they should be refused free health care and be forced to pay for such care out of their own pocket. But no, instead they have the right legal right to seek damages against the "cyclist". Nanny state, absolute utter, total nanny state.
Another big factor nobody talks about is inner city speed limits of 20mph, so we have ebikes strugling to get upto speed on hilly roads in built up areas surrounded by cars that all want to do 18-22mph on the same roads, recipe for an accident.. why it was decided that the top level of assistance should be less than low speed limits is beyond me. Imo the off the shelf speed should be 20mph to match low speed roads close to schools and shopping centers etc, If the govt are serious about getting people green perhaps there is an arguement for a 28mph class that requires mandatory cycle helmets, proof of a CBT...and so on... to at least suggest the rider knows some highway basics and isnt likely to cause problems, a 45mph surron is an e-moped imo needs to be insured and treated like a small motorcycle tbh.
I don't understand how an ebike that can put out 250w or more couldn't get up that modest incline? I only use a regular road bike and I would fly up that hill putting out 250w of my own power. Is it a gearing issue?
I find 20 mph is a great cruising speed on an ebike. Easy to get where you are going and doesnt use a lot of power. I rarely ask the bike to go 32 mph but I like knowing the power/speed is there if I need it. I wouldnt buy a bike that maxed out at 20 given you shouldn't be maxed out all the time.
Feedback: yes you’re right, the video is pointless. There are hundreds of e-bike choices out there now but the U.K. legislation is just there to tell you that if the machine has a throttle it’s going to be classed as a motor bike. Just like any other motorbike if you want to use it on the road it has to have a reg. number.
Let me guess, you wore an excessive compliance muzzle/face nappy every day, tested regularly, and participated in the ‘safe and effective’ chemistry experiments. Darwin has a plan for you.
@@philtucker1224 How do you get caught by the police on an e bike - even once? If they’re in a car, you just turn around and go in the opposite direction, then down an alley or across a playing field. Simple. They are just policy enforcers and revenue collectors in fancy dress costume.
I’m confuse.. So is it actually illegal to have throttle on your e-bike? If you’re not actually using it (unless you’re on a private road or land hence why some might want to keep it on rather than to disconnect completely) can you still get in trouble from a copper if they stop you on a main road for example?
If you have one but don't use it you're less likely to be stopped but you can still get into trouble if they decide to stop you since they won't accept 'but I don't use it' as an excuse. It needs to not work by either disconnecting it or disabling it in the computer. You're allowed to have a non working throttle since you are actually allowed throttles - they just can't propel the bike over 6kph
@@e-VRC so as long as it can’t propel the bike over 6kph, you are allowed to have it on the bike so in theory, the police have no ground to stop you in the first place to check if you have a throttle installed and get you in trouble simply because it’s on there?
I used to cycle a lot but now have a lung problem which has totally taken away my stamina and stopped me cycling. I used to be able to achieve 40mph and rarely returned an average speed of less than 15mph even when out for 12hrs, that's 180 miles. I use a car all the time now but await a law change, 25mph max would be suitable and sensible.
Why does they have neither a speed or power limit on larger vehicles tho enless you go as big as a semi which just has a governor on speed around 70mph
Made it to the end! Haha. It would be awesome to see a video showing a list of e-bikes that are registered as 250w, but can go higher off road, like you say. I’m specifically interested in bikes I can get in amazon.
I am in Canada and e-bike laws are different here. We can have a max of 500w and 32 kph (20mph). My bike meets the exact legal specs of our class 2 specification and it does make a large difference on ease of riding. There are hills in my city that are still too much for my bike to tackle without my help on the pedals. Imagine if it was set when going below 20kph can push up to 1000w which is meant to take on hills but over a lower wattage like 500w. Still can have a 32kph speed cap which is not unreasonably fast.
An e-bike is supposed to be a bike that gives assistance to pedalling the bike, not for it to be powered by the electric motor without pedalling. I’m a cyclist and ride an electric motorbike, my friend rides an electric motorbike and Giant mountain e-bike, his comments were 15 mph is fast enough and if you want to go above 15 mph pedal faster, the law or motor doesn’t stop you from exceeding 15 mph, just stops the assistance!
@@swss ironic considering that your whole argument was based on your experiences, and not those of many of the less able in the chat to whom the bikes are gamechangers (at least they could be).
@@hughesy606 that’s as may be but calling me a Karen for expressing an opinion that 15 mph is fast enough isn’t called for. So what speed in your opinion is fast enough?
@@swss if you hold a full UK driving licence then there shouldn't be a restriction. Police them like you would a moped. If you don't hold a licence then the current regs apply, without the need for a provisional.
I live in Tenerife and use an ebike to get around. I completely agree with you about the power limit. 250W is no where near enough power to get up the hills here. Also, in Spain, it is legal to use an electric stand up scooter with a much more powerful motor. It makes absolutely no sense at all. I of course agree with the speed restrictions, but the power and accelerator restrictions are absolutely ridiculous.
My Swytch kit ebike rips up steep hills in highest mode. In lowest Eco mode (1 out of 5) it puts about 50/watts out which ungoverned and pedalling nicely lets me cruise at 30 kmph. In mode 5 pedalling doesn’t add any power and battery drains in 45 mins.
I live in South Wales (Welsh valleys) and everywhere is hills, even the horizon is up. I can't have a car or motorcycle licence on health grounds but I have no balance issues so don't require a disability "scooter". An e-bike with power (torque) and a throttle as I can't peddle much, but with limited speed is what I need so all I can do is break the stupid law in the hope the coppers don't realise that I am doing so. Like you said, it's absolutely ridiculous.
I’m in Snowdonia in the North. I’ll be opting for the 750W when I buy. I need the torque to get around. It’s very unlikely I’ll get stopped by the police because of the cycle tracks in the area.
I have just made an 8800 watt mid drive bike which I will ride with pedals and no chain as there is no law saying I need a chain can also tune in down to 250w
Agree ! I'm 60 years old and i can do 20MPH on my standard Hybrid bike ha! so where is a law on that ?? I also ride e-bikes which ALL do 30MPH and i am quite happy to PAS at 20mph ,i don't even think about laws because to me at my age life is now a bonus ha! The more e-bikes that are over 250W that are sold in the UK the better ! :) As is said in this video speed rule should be law ,power rule is CRAZY !
I'm 75, and I ride an eBike ( and a couple of road bikes) in the peak district, the Shimano Steps mid mounted motor is fantastic, and even on the "Normal" setting will take me up the steepest of hills at about 11mph, and 14-15 mph on "High" ( where I struggle to do 5mph on the road bike) Sadly the gearing on my bike (A Kona Dew E, which is about 5 Kg Lighter than most) is a little low, and I "spin out" at about 25mph, but gravity assisted regularly hit 37mph. I't's brilliant, so good in fact that I've only done 50 miles on my motorcycle this year!
I'm afraid I'd have to say for my two cents worth, that BOTH the power limit and the speed limit there are totally bollocks, not just the former! We have hills here where I live in Arizona, in fact for the rides I make on my two bikes (1 e-bike, 1 conventional bike) I hit them often. Stand ups on the regular bike happen often. I especially like the e-bike for excessive summer heat times and excessive wind times both. Besides being super for backpacking groceries some of the time. Our speed limits here in fact ought to be higher, much less there! On the roads where the traffic is making 35 I don't see any reason for an e-bike to cut off at 28-31 MPH, (or simply maintaining more at 27 with a small grade) and in fact that makes the rider less safe due to the passing cars going 35-40 MPH. They should absolutely drop those kinds of restrictions there and change to the same to ours in the USA. An e-bike should be more useful than that, and like you were getting at for the aged and the less able, I entirely agree. Some of us ride them for the utility or for being less inclined at times to be out riding, but some others really, really need them to ride at all. Seeing this video makes me remember fondly the more mild summers in Oxfordshire especially.
There are irresponsible idiots in cars who kill people on the daily, except they can’t ruin it for everyone else because people are fine with cars going at whatever speed the roads allow, same for motorbikes and mopeds except their riders are more cautious on the whole as it’s their life on the line. I can’t conceive of a reason, beyond prejudice towards the new and fear of the unknown, that there is this double standard with personal electric vehicles. It is all just so stupid and I’m looking forward to the day people realise that, but knowing the UK that will be a looooong time from now, if ever. This country is so obsessed with nit-picky bullshit laws and rules and unfortunately the dumb public seem to gobble it up. Or at least that’s the impression I get when reading the Daily Mail comments on any article about PEVs. This country has nothing going for it right now.
Spot on. I’ve had my 750w bike with throttle for three years now. It’s capable of 30 on throttle . I go out on it at least twice a week and completely ignore the bullshit from politicians. I think all round, 750w is the minimum power you need, this will move me up hills and give me a bit of power to pull away safely.The key to not pissing off people is not to cane it on the roads. I always use the pedals, keep them turning to show I’m peddling don’t go over about 18mph, stay off pavements and respect other road users. Thus I’ve never had a problem. I won’t be taken as an idiot by the government or police as I’m not causing any problems so it won’t apply to me.
My bike (with throttle) was turned away for a maintenance check…in fact the guy who works there, and has helped me in the past, apologised but said…because it has a throttle, we are not allowed to touch it…I was stunned.
The restrictive laws are down to lobbying the EU by petrol scooter manufacturers such as piaggio / Vespa / Gilera who could see a future where there sales would vanish. The absurd laws are from an EU directive hence there absurd & not concidered
I was ready to argue with you but you make good points. I live in a flat area and my ebike is abso fine. I get angry with ebikes passing me on a cycle lane when I'm at 15.5mph. Too dangerous
Another great video and like you I think the power law is nonsense and having been using my ebike for a couple of months the no throttle rule is dangerous when you start off, the speed rule I think it should be 20mph personally keep doing these great videos and thanks for all the information you put out for us....
Here in Germany we have e-Bikes with more power, throttles and pedals. We call them S-Pedelecs and they are limited to 45km/h or even more but need an appropriate license and insurance and you can't ride on bicycle lanes. Just like mopeds :)
Surely there is a way to have a lts ay 1500w motor and have on your speed limiter different modes or defults which are all custom like an road mode having a liit of 15 mph and a offroad mode or countryside mode where its no speed limiter and you can go as quick as you can
I noticed how you ride and I would find it uncomfortable to pedal using the arches of my feet and you probably could put more power through the pedals using the balls of your feet. 😁
I remember buying my DIY 2000watt ebike could go 35 to 40mph, hub motor had to sell it as its annoying to undo the bolts and torque arm when you get a puncture in the rear
A 250W limitation is easy to implement for manufacturers and easy to check for manufacturers, while still living lots of room for electric power-train innovation. Also e-bikes are allowed on cycle tracks in dense cities where something more powerful could easily endanger pedestrians or other cyclists. I've been cycling in Paris for quite some time now and going too fast in boulevards like Sebastopol or Magenta can be dangerous. This is why speedbikes are classified as mopeds. It's not because regulators don't want people on bikes, but simply because they want to keep *everyone* safe including children, seniors, and beginners on muscular bikes.
Be sure to check out my other videos on ebike law:
Throttle law: ruclips.net/video/YSSVDMgpgBM/видео.html
Speed Law: ruclips.net/video/DGv7p9nptco/видео.html
Something I realised when watching the video:
Mid drive motors don't actually push the crank arms. I.e. they don't spin around when you pull the throttle 😂😂
I think no one should follow them
On the one my Mum Bought me before she passed away last year i get good hill starts without wobbling all over the place and hearing screeching brakes behind me as jonny boy racer flies by 500w should be acceptable still only does 15.6 MPH but does not get me nearly mowed over because i go straight instead of wonky, if you know what i mean arry. OK granted 2000w motors and break yer neck speed should remain ruled out but 500 w motors just gives you that extra get out of trouble from the start, without wobling especilly for us older folks....And tell that bloody Mike Graham from Talk TV, i don't miss his rants about Cyclists, tell him "on yer bike"
The ebike law is ridiculous and a lot of people are not following it, nor does it seem to be enforced in any way, at least here in Scotland.
It would make more sense to indeed not limit the power, but have 20mph speed limit. 20mph just so in the city you can keep up with the cars.
I've been riding a 1500w converted MTB for the last 3 years and covered over 7k commuting to work 30 miles a day.
If I could get it insured and registered as an Ebike I would, But it's no motor bike or scooter. Relying on the motor only as a registered motorbike puts me in danger from fellow traffic users, especially when you add all the extras needed to get it through the test. It only travels at a decent speed because I use my legs to assist.
There needs to be some middle ground and I will follow it to the letter.
I always thought they were called pedal assist bikes therefore the motor is there to assist cycling not to replace cycling.
eejit who made this video appears not to have spotted that distinction. sakes
@@raymondo162 yes, and he's talking primarily about hub-motor 'urban' bikes here, not your typical eMTB which has a mid-drive motor and a wide range of gears to maximise the torque output from what is still nominally a 250w motor - although he mentions that briefly, this video really isn't relevant with regard to a typical Class-1 e-bike from a mainstream manufacturer.
Yep, i.e. MoPed - motorised pedal cycle.
@@PaulJakma No, they are given the somewhat difficult portmanteau of "pedelec" - an electrically assisted bicycle which must be pedalled for the motor to deliver power. Mopeds are limited class motorcycles (speed and power output) which must be able to be pedalled, but are not required to be pedalled in order to travel under power. In the UK, mopeds also require registration plates, insurance, driving license, MOT if older than 3 years, and you need to be older than 16 to ride one...
That’s a weird European thing, pedal assist, or throttle only is normal in non commie countries, 25MPH + is also the norm, mine can hit 40.
I had the exact same thoughts some time ago. While I totally get the speed limit (even though it personally annoys me), the power limit makes no sense at all. You can drag the argument even further: a very lightweight person of lets say 50kg bodyweight will have a wildly different experience than a 120kg person with the exact same bike and motor.
Great minds! 👍
And even further to that. We have an e-cargo-bike. 2 or 3 kids (or other cargo like parcel delivery, road help, dogs) easily make the whole thing including rider up to 200kg. Still it is limited at 250 Watts. It is a great option for many households in urban areas but some hills or wind would make it very hard for the little motor.
@@corese75well what do you expect? they make rules on individual basis? the chaos that would cause. I'm not gonna lie, as much as I want to go fast, even the 15.5mph on a bicycle feels more than enough.
@@raulstl2891The safety and rule could be quite simple. 25kph/16mph max. Normal engineering would pick a smaller motor for light weight efficiency and big heavy (cargo) bikes can have stronger motors if they like. 25kph max.. For example in NL for 40 years 25kph was the limit for mopeds without helmet, power was not really regulated, the speedlimit was the hard rule.
15.5mph is okay but not for everybody. Here in NL people sometimes do 20 mile commutes and then they go for 28mph/45kph ebikes that have some extra rules for insurance, plates and helmet. You do have to pedal quite hard for the top speed and they are crazy expensive. Cargo versions that do 45kph don't exists.
......
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The problem as always is the idiots. We could do away with lots of rules and regulations if it wasn't for idiots. Unfortunately, we are stuck with them☹️
Just like the idiots who drive over the speed limit on motorways or supercar speeds on the road, it should be 30/40/50/60/70mph for everyone
@@leemorgan7118 Just keep eating your porridge like your mother tells you and you'll be a great little scout! GTFOH!!!
Maybe there will be a new profession and hire ebike police. Add the wattage so heavy riders can get up hills but make the laws tough on those that misride and do stupid things .
Everyone can be or has been an idiot at some time in their life.
The question is, at what point should a motorized bike require a drivers license.
This law is ridiculous.
I weigh 320 lbs and am over 6 foot tall. I am a veteran and was injured. I have a bad knee and fit into the examples you give.
I can't walk up the hill and the bike can assist me with gearing.
250 watts does nothing for me.
How dare they decide for me where I am allowed to travel!
I am building my own e bike.
the trueley mind boggling part
you could get what is essentially a motorised tent that goes 10 mph and drive it on the pavement and in the shops forcing other pedestrians to have to walk in the road to let you past and squeeze around you in shops
and that would somehow be legal
Well. You can first stop being deliberately disingenuous. Nobody decided for you where you can travel. You can travel anywhere you fucking like. What they have done (if you talk about that instead of the bullshit you came out with) is set a law that allows pedal assisted bicycles that don’t output more than 250w of continuous power. As with any law there’s people that fall outside of the intended scope of that law. There’s also people that fall within the scope of the law (the majority). You mention you’re 320lbs, it seems to be and most likely everyone else around you that you are fully able to do something about your weight problem. Or just use a different type of vehicle like anyone else that needs a vehicle more suited to a hugely overweight person. Seems to me that you’re trying to bend something that isn’t for a purpose to your own purpose which it’s really not intended for.
I dont have an ebike, i am 60 And on my road bike i consitantly avg more than 15mph even with a few hills , i also have a power meter its easy to do 20mph at less than 200w especially if you have a tail wind. So i think the speed limit should be 18-20mph so the less fit could keep up.
The thing is, someone who can maintain 20 mph on a bicycle on the flats almost certainly has at least a couple of years of cycling experience, and they built up to being able to do that speed. They started probably doing more like 12 to 15mph on the flats, and slowly got stronger - and they built up experience of the roads with it, and they made their initial mistakes at lower speeds.
The problem with selling 500W, 20mph+ eBikes to Joe-hasn't-cycled-much-ever is they're instantly zooming around at speeds that hurt a lot more, but their brains havn't had the time to wire up for spotting risks and building reactions to common dangers.
Imagine sketchy deliveroos, people on holiday renting an E bike, old people and general morons at 20mph on a cycle path. You'd have loads of deaths
@@reddaB that's just rubbish the survival rate when hit by a car at 20mph is 97% a cyclist has 15 times less mass . And the cycle paths already have cyclists doing 20mph. Also most cycling is done on the road as there just aren't that many cycle paths.
@@rob19632 survivability isn't the metric of assessing risk. There is more to accident seriousness than fatalities haha
@@reddaB You said there would be loads of deaths.! Caused by morons and you can't legislate against stupidity nothing would work.
Two years in from having nearly half my heart replaced, and being fit enough to ride my mtb, I thought I'd upgrade it or swap it in for an ebike version. Then I found out what a shatshow the politicians have made of encouraging us to get on our bikes and save the planet. Well done Westminster, you bunch of plumbs.
Well they can't have people using the roads and NOT paying them for the privilege like car drivers have to.
It's like with Electric Cars and Zero road tax, they're now planning to reintroduce the road tax on them, why? Loss of revenue.
EDIT
There is only one sure method of saving the planet.
Get rid of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, ALL OF THEM. ;-)
Tbh I wouldn't worry too much. There are plenty of powerful ebikes available to us in the UK. As long as you're not going mad you'll be fine
And if you told them about your health and why you need it then it's going to take a stone hearted officer to do anything to you.
It's EU law, not Westminster.
But in parts of the EU they have s pedalecs - high powered ebikes
@@kevinshort3943 We're not part of the EU anymore, SO EU laws no longer apply, But British one's do.
@@nigelnightmare4160
All existing EU law was written into UK law at Brexit
With regards to the 15mph speedlimit it should be higher as we can generally all ride around 20mph without any issue. But the main issue is I have is when you hit 15mph it can be like hitting a wall as the motor cuts off, it would be great to see the power assistance drop off slowly maybe as you get closer to 20mph.
I like that idea. On cheaper ebikes especially there can be quite a bit of resistance.
De restrict then
Thats weird it doesn't happen on mine, at peak voltage @250w motor 48v, its provided even little power at 17mph with pedalling as it slowly backs off, sometimes I've hit 18.5mph before it comepletly cut off a few times
The power cut-off can be quite dangerous if you're crossing a busy road junction, and need extra speed and acceleration to avoid traffic.
The no throttle law on ebikes is 100% discriminatory to people like me who can't pedal off from a standstill I have spine and pelvis problems.
@@ppppumaLove my thumb throttle. As you stated, that’s just the way I start. Seated, foot on the right peddle, then thumb throttle and away I go. 👍.
@jaftymate6392 problem is they never impliment it. Would solve a big issue if they did.
you can use throttle up to 15.5mph if the bike is DVSA approved, costs you £55 to get the bike tested. wisper bikes sell DVSA approved throttle bikes
@@ppppuma At 6 mph is can be hard to balance a heavy bike, this rule/law also makes no sense.
Can't you use some paper to prove your health condition? Because no throttle makes sense for majority of people
If the government are serious about getting commuters on bikes they need to sort this out and raise the power levels to enable people to go up a reasonable slope at 15mph and 5mph up a steep hill. Otherwise the millions that councils have spent on cycle lanes will be a total waste of money. Do Uber eat delivery people have power dispensation or are they just taking the piss?
You don't need more than 250w, who ever tells you you need more than that has never actually looked how much power average bicycle commuter can make. For what he is complains in video you need torque.
Hill climb and acceleration requires torque. And even then these bikes have plenty. If you want more then get a drivers license. Be leave it or not, these rules are in place so that those who haven't shown prof of competence and good working order ( read drivers license and registration, insurance...) don't have too much power to do serious harm.
500watt motor goes up a pretty steep hill at 20kph, with pedaling. No chance to get the world on to ebikes for commuting at 250watt/15mph limit. I wouldn't have bought my ebike, if those were the limits in Canada. 750watt is the limit. Can have a throttle but must also have pedal assist. Love mine, barely drive for basic getting around.
@@fulconandroadcone9488 why should people have to spend thousands more to get up hills or ride against the wind? Why should old people be barred from cycling because of what younger potential law breakers might do?
@@utubeape Why would they need as much power as armature cyclists? I have no problems with any of that and I'm sure I'm not able to output 250W for any significant amount of time.
@@fulconandroadcone9488 people have different fitness levels, and weather conditions as well as terrain affects the ability to travel, and also at the end of the day what harm does it do to have more power?
Well here in Finland you can have nominal 1000W ebike with throttle but it is still limited to 25 kmh with motor but you can pedal faster and you can get some nice speed at downhills.
Now that makes sense! 👌
I'm glad we have 750 watts in the US vs the rest of the world, but it really doesn't make sense. Put a speed limit and let us have all the power.
Yessss!!!
I'm 100% with you on that speed limit yes but the 250 watt limit on power doesn't make sense
🙌🙌
I don't even agree with speed limit, when pedal bikes have no such limits.
@@Hoggdoc1946 Most people cannot pedal beyond 15 or so mph with any consistency, so speed limits are kind of silly for regular bikes. E-Bikes, however, can easily be operated at 20mph with very little effort and pose a lot of dangers when used on pedestrian paths.
The higher the power, the closer these things come to simply being electric motorcycles. I see "e-bikes" regularly on our bike path and nobody bothers to pedal them at all. If motorcycles must be registered and stay on the streets, the same should apply to "e-bikes" that don't need to be pedaled.
@@johnsimion2893 Pretty sure those types of self powered e-bikes are already not allowed on the bike paths, etc.
It's quite simple really - the Class 1 pedal-assist regulations: 250w max power, no throttle and assistance limited to 15.5 or 20mph (depending on the market) are specifically for e-bikes which are going to be used where regular bicycle are, just with a bit of assistance to your pedal input.
There are any number of other electrically powered bikes out there - some which meet the Class 2 category (additional throttle, but limited 'assisted' speed still) and Class 3 (no throttle, but up to 45kph), together with any number of home-brew kit bikes with throttles and much more powerful motors if that is what you want... But those increasingly blur the lines between an 'assisted' bicycle (ie. fundamentally where you still have to pedal) and a full electrically powered 'motorbike' which is a very different style of vehicle - and if they start to be used on regular bike trails (where Class 1 are currently allowed) you are almost inevitably going to mess it up for everyone.
you're forgetting the stealth bomber: a e-bike for the highway (72V 17 KW 50-60 mph) with its full registration as an electric motorcycle with pedal assist.
Try reading the actual regs. There isn't a 250w limit. Just the requirement that the motor be labeled as such and can produce 250w continuosly in thermal equilibrium. Full fat e-mtb's are now producing 90nm of torque which equates to about 800W. The way the regs are presented is a joke.
@@jamesgrabowski6871Joooooo you can't just equate 90Nm to 800W, that's not how physics work. I can build you a 1000Nm 10W motor.
@@Blockbuster2033 that's true but these are designed to operate in the 60-100 rpm range so 85nm at 90rpm is ~800W.
Then they would produce at least around twice that at 0 rpm. Probably more like 3 to 4 times that. That would be ridicolous. Have you ever produced that amount of torque? That would send you flying. That is 14.5 kph at a 10% Grade At 100kg System weight. That is incredibly fast. And would probably overturn you.
Let's add a small torque calculation to this to illustrate that:
Let's say your center of mass is around 430mm forward of the rear axle. You weigh 100kg with the bike. This results in righting torque of around 430nm. On Flat ground. Now let's say you're 500mm above the axles, which is reasonable as well. On that 10% Grade. Now that is 377 Nm. Which is questionable. If you take a peak load you will get more upturning force than righting force. This is a very fragile system. And i was a bit conservative with my calculations. And took the bottom Bracket as the horizontal distance, and the top chord as the vertical axis.
If you go a bit more agressive, and use this calculator: www.biketrekking.de/ausruestung/fahrrad_statik.htm You will get to regimes, where you will turn over your bike. With those motors.
I’m with you I love ebikes, I don’t mind the speed that much, but the motor limit, 250w on these hills is a nightmare
Agree, 250W is too low. Also agree with your observation that that rated watts isn't accurate. Power is not a bad way to regulate, it works ok in the world of motorcycles. I would suggest 750W is a reasonable limit. I pick this number because horses are still legal and they possess one, um, horsepower. And 750W is about 1hp. But sure, if the UK insists on keeping everyone safe and slow, the speed restriction is the most effective way to do that. 15.5mph is too slow; I think 20mph is a reasonable limit.
That is fine 750W max output limited to 20 mph but requires Registration plate, Driving Licence, helmet, MOT and insurance.
At 15.5mph you are faster than the average cyclist speed which is more like 10 - 12mph
250W is enough power to push 85KG total weight up a 20% hill at approx. 5mph. and don't forget that is 250W on top of what the rider can do, so in lots of cases, a combined power of 500W+ for short periods.
A horse doesn't possess one horse power (it has more). And a horse doesn't have a gearbox. And horse riders don't gallop on the streets. Analogy bad.
@@patrikfloding7985 the gears argument doesn't really come into the equation watts are watts gearing those watts only changes torque which is very different
@@EoPArceye Yea, I am in Canada. Non of what you stated applies. No plate, insurance etc. Supposed to wear a helmet but I have never had a bike helmet, and I am not about to get one. 10,000km later on my 500watt 32kph speed, along with pedal assist and throttle. 750watt is the limit. If I want more power I would just jump on my motorcycle.
@@joeshmoe7967 so if you are not in the same country as the laws that apply why comment
Just a small point - you repeatedly say 'maximum power of 250w' whereas EN15194 uses the term 'maximum CONTINUOUS power' which is rather a different thing and hence why peak, short term powers greater than 250w are seen on perfectly legal EPACs. And input power (to the motor) is not the same as the output power and I'm not clear whether the 250w figure applies to input or output power, hmm! Anyway, it all needs sorting out for sure - keep up the good work.
Cheers! Yeah I don't think they know either 😂😂
Canada here I just bought an e bike with a 250 w motor on the front wheel and a 350 w motor on the rear. You can use them individually or both at the same time. Great bike
While, I am in Ontario, Canada and the local police stop and check e-bikes 250 + 350 = 600. Over 500 here is your ticket have a nice day.
@@brianferguson6278 well too bad for you I live in BC and there is no such rule
@@ginkinky Here is a link to your rules in BC, same as ours in Ontario. From what i see BC rules are much stronger than Ontario...if it does not look like a normal bike it's not, it's an electric motorcycle. This is about the scooter type bikes.
www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/transportation/driving-and-cycling/cycling/e-bike-rules-of-the-road
The pedals are the throttle that's why its called peddle assist.
Yeah, but also the same types of bikes are sold all over the world with throttles and it's fine, that's the point of the video. Just because you call it something, doesn't justify restricting a feature that is possible and valuable for no good reason.
but you can't do a hill start unless the pedals have gone around some way the motor doesnt kick in
As someone from Scotland, the power limit especially proves that the individuals in charge of these laws are the type who live in London and only think about London. Honestly, the same goes for the speed limit. If you are travelling at 15.5mph, it doesn't matter what road you are on, EVERY car will overtake you (except in London, of course!). Quite frankly, for a method of transport that is supposed to help timid cyclists out the door who wouldn't normally ride a bike, being forced to have every car still overtake you feels like another form of indirect bullying from Westminster for anyone who doesn't live in their 20-mile catchment bubble. In my humble opinion. Laws like these are made to be broken. However, common sense should always still apply! Feel exactly the same about E-Scooters. I am glad to see videos such as yours.
This is why I bought a dual motor fat bike lol. On my commute there is a 1.5 mile long incline that is 15% or so.
When I had a 250w I could get up it with myself also pedalling at around 4-5mph. Which was utterly woeful and very scary if a car came behind me. Since getting my new bike I can ride up that same hill at 19mph with me pedalling a tiny bit. If I lived in London I’d be perfectly happy with 250w but the reality for many of us is that amount of power is not suitable for where we live. I don’t get any cars attempting dangerous overtakes anymore as I can travel a little above the 30mph limits.
Not concerned about being pulled over by the police, my local force don’t bother seizing them.
Agreeing on a lot of points here
Motorcyclist, injured in accident, can't pedal analogue bike due to injuries, but do now have & love my 250w ebike.
Points for me as 60+yr old, london ebike rider, ex biker (for now) and car driver
* Max 20mph on many of our roads, not being able to match that speed on assistance with ebike, is an accident waiting to happen with the constant overtaking, then passing the same vehicle repeatedly in traffic
* Throttle speed is a necessity for me, and many others who physically cant propel themselves from a standstill
* Ebike has given me improved independent mobility once more.
* I get the pleasure of riding & some healthy exercise.
* With a better spread of power & torque ebikes could be a sensible solution for many others like myself.
I agree with the majority of video points.
But I can see issues as mentioned in some comments
20mph & throttle limit of 15mph be a good start for me.
Anyone know what helmet is used at 3:00? Thats nice!
It's a 'scorpion style' helmet from AliExpress. Search scorpion helmet and you're sure to find some similar helmets.
Made it to the end. I agree they should be speed limited, not power limited, but 15.5 mph is too slow. Needs to be at least 20 mph, primarily so we don’t slow cars down any further in built up areas.
Agreed and thanks 😁
If I fit a befang 250w which I'm assuming is limited to 15.5mph and only use the assist mode and no power mode is it road legal as it also has a throttle mode?
@@Robbo4843 legal as long as the throttle is disconnected, deactivated or only propels the bike to 6kph
@@e-VRC Thanks 👍
I mean it's pointless and unnecessary, but that's the British government for ya. Probably why Engwe etc do mostly online sales, as the restrictions are idiotic. Don't expect the laws to change in our lifetime, some might start actually registering and insuring their eBikes so they can abide, especially when 72v 50ah batteries become the norm.
The country is lost, just haven't the roads for the traffic we have now ,holes everywhere, everything is falling apart 😅 ,ignore all their crap they certainly don't listen to anyone paying Taxes and repairing anything, can't even cross a side street the other day ,we got 2 million more uninsured migrants lmno ,can't drive for shite
Yeah I'm glad we still have access to more power if we want it.
I'm Electronics technician, motor of 250W is 250W. You cannot get more power because motors themselves draw current they need to operate (as anything), and if they could coils in motor would burn out from higher Amps - overload.
Amp-hours are units of current storage capacity and how long will e-bike run.
I believe the thing to also consider before buying an e-bike is unit of torque (also called moment) Nm.
Interesting how rules differ. In Canada, some of the bikes you show as e-bikes aren’t legally e-bikes here because their wheels are too small.
Hi thanks for the video so I have a mobility issue and I could really do with having my old bike converted to an e-bike and I don't want to get done by the law but I definitely don't want the 250 w motor, I want to do at least 350 because I want to get Hills so are there any loopholes in the law that would allow me to do this thank you😊
I can average 16-17mph over an hour, so the friction and/or weight of a legal motor would slow me down. I think 20-25mph would be a safer speed limit, more inline with the speeds of traffic in residential areas. Fewer overtakes, more safeties.
I don't know I commute every day but I could see alot of time where if I had the extra speed people would still pass but slam on the brakes infront of you as they have misjudged your speed.
What make is the mirror you have with the arm and does it work please?
I think that's on the eskuta sx250 and if that's the one you mean it comes with the bike. Works amazing though.
You are correct, The Law could limit the top speed but not the maximum power, over the speed limit the power to the motor could just be cut off. This would also be easy to regulate since all that would be necessary would be for the Police to take it for a ride to test it.
Perhaps the reason they limit the power is to protect the motorcycle industry from competition from e-bikes.
That's certainly believable.
Well the US and EU have a higher allowance than we do and we don't really make any motorbikes, plus a 17 year old has access to over 11,000w of power, so our Government could still limit us to 3000w and we would be fine though a motorbike would still eat us for breakfast
It's to keep them from being used as unlicensed motorcycles, but the UK limits are far lower than they need be, the US and EU limits are reasonable to maintain the distinction between ebike (no license, registration, insurance needed can use bike paths and some MTB trails) and motorcycle (license and endorsement, registration, insurance required can only be operated on roads and motorized trails).
We in the UK don't have a motorbike industry
Agree with this video 100%. I loved riding bikes when I was younger, but I now have arthritis and require two knee replacements, and C19 left me with a heart condition. Somedays I'm able to get out and about, other days I'm not. An ebike with a twist or thumb "throttle" and enough power to haul my bloated and ageing carcass around at a steady 15mph would be great!!
And your only 24.
That would be a Moped then ..............
Pretty sure they have existed for a long time, and you can even get electric ones now.
Wisper bikes based in Kent sell bikes with a throttle that can do the legal 15mph speed and they are completely legal in the UK. They have each bike DVSA certified with a certificate.
@@poprin5194
Very interesting..............
Don't see the point of jumping through those hoops and paying the money, when you could just ghost pedal on a cadence sensensing bafang - if you are that desperate for a moped.
Even on power mode one or two, the gearing is not high enough to help the motor except up hills. I need to find a way to change the hub gears on my Fortis e-bike.
As I recall, the power limit applies to continuous power which means that short term peaks can be much higher than 250 watts. Also some manufacturers rationalise their product range to reduce costs, I remember an old story that one company simply stuck "250 watt" labels on a pre-existing 350 watt motor.
A motor will pretty well take as much power as you give it until it either burns out, or suffers mechanical damage through over-torque so its all a bit meaningless anyway when considering short term power applications. Its also unclear whether the limit applies to electrical input power, or mechanical output power.
Just proves that the law wasn't written by anyone with engineering knowledge.
That maybe how it is interpreted, But it's NOT how it's worded, and YES anyone with any engineering knowledge will be able to tell you that it is not possible to enforce in it's current form.
As Scotty was wont to say "Ye cannae change the laws of physics".
you read the law wrong, its a maximum of 250 watts..
The law does not regulate the maximum theoretical power of the motor, it regulates the maximum mechanical output of the controller/motor combination. Thus it is perfectly legal to put a motor capable of delivering 1 kW into an eBike, but the controller must be limited so that no more than 250W of mechanical power output is produced. It doesn't matter if 250W of electrical energy is used to deliver it (that's a matter of efficiency).
The reason a lot of those hub-motor eBikes can't climb that hill is because they can't produce enough torque at low RPM, so they aren't able to deliver 250W at walking pace. Bigger motors can be used to deliver the required torque (although they weigh and cost more), yet not exceed the 250W mechanical output power with the appropriate limiters (which is why some eBikes can be de-limited to deliver four or more times their legal limit).
So if i have an e bike with 750w engine and it cut off with 15mph its legal?
Those restrictions would drive me nuts. I normally ride at 20MPH especially in the warmer weather. And use the twist grip throttle all the time when taking off from a stop BEFORE pedaling. And sometimes to get off of heavier traffic roads, I'll crank up to the max speed of 32MPH just to get off those roads ASAP.
totally agree mate, I use mine for everyday transport, I’ve got a lung disease and live at the top of a 300ft climb, it is torque I want
Torque and power are the same. Ask any engineer.
@karstentopp his point being 250w of "power" or "torque" is not enough for certain conditions & situations
@@karstentopp power = the work rate and torque is the energy used to turn a shaft at a specific rpm
@@Wildernessoutside Power=torque x degrees of revolution. O a 4 stroke, that's 720 degrees as power is produced only once in every two revolutions. The OP does not need gaziollions of revs, he needs low revs and high torque. .
@@karstentopp as former race car builder I can assure you that is incorrect
I totally agree with you. I have bad knees and hips but I would like to stay health, e-bikes are helping me to do that but I have to stay on flat roads (which are limited). Thank you for a very informative and sensible vlog.
As a motor cyclist, I agree about the throttle but the speed and power should be restricted, otherwise the roads would be full of untrained and dangerous riders, the e bikes have already become a nuisance on the canal towpath near me but legally the towpath is not public road
Definitely valid points. I think bikes should be allowed say 750w but pretty much the same performance (15.5 though I'd prefer 19) but the ability to do it no matter the land. Or even up hills at 5mph. Better than not being able to get up at all. Problem is more power means people can unlock if manufacturers choose to let them. But then no matter the law there will always be the mad towpath riders.
As an ebike cyclist , car dr8ver & motorcyclist , walkers & conventionional cyclists have become a nuisance on local canal paths , standing in the way - or pedaling past us e-bikers @ more than 15.5 mph without slowing down as they don't want to loose speed they need to build back up . Its all a matter of perspective. Comments like yours with a narrow mind are becoming a problem. There are much more choices of transportation now & should be embraced , if someone can do a vehicle journey on a surron type bike that would otherwise mean using a 2 ton vehicle for then that is surely better as in efficiency
Roads are full of untrained and dangerous "riders" driving cars. For some reason cars, infinitely more dangerous, are not restricted in any way...
@@michwoz cars are restricted to persons who have passed a competency test and have third party insurance unlike the electric motorcycles that are now appearing, capable of speeds in excess of 30 miles an hour, and driven along pedestrian paths, the law is fairly straightforward, under 15 mph and 250w, no problems and I completely agree with that, but if you want to do more it must be registered as an electric motorcycle and rode as per all other motorised vehicles ie insured and by a competent person, what part of that do you not understand?
@@vobchopper Yeah. These competency tests are joke. Incompetent people are passing them with no big problems. The limits for e-bikes should be enforced by laws and signs, not technical limitations making this very effective mean of transportation practically obsolete. I do think some technical parameters should differentiate e-bikes from motorbikes but not at the absurd level it is now. Simply put current rules are too strict, too limiting and unreasonable.
I sure do feel for you guys over in Europe. My E-Mt bike has a 3000 watt mid drive and it is so fun.
I'm so jealous 🤟🤟🙌
Old people like me vote and all hell would break lose if they tried passing anything so restrictive here in the US..
I live in FL where hills are relatively wimpy where they exist at all but, still, IMO 750W is about the minimum needed if you want to do much more than tool around the RV park.
Do they not haul cargo on ebikes there? WTF are you gonna do when you need to carry any weight?
Weeee, i can imagine lol. Sadly we still have dustbin lids as defensive weapns too lol
No one follows the 'Law' here uk
@@petem.3719you Floridians must get some good range ? I got all kind of hills killing my range lol
I have a Yamaha powered e bike ,15-5 mph , any tips to get it going up to 20 mph without a trick box?.
Any idea of the model?
I live on exmoor the big hills are joined together by small hills not much flat ground , I had a 250watt bike and all it did on hills was off set the weight of the motor and battery on the hills . I was better off with a light weight hybrid
Perfect example! 👍👍
Hub motor?
Is it more torque we need to get up the hill without slowing down, but would that mean the battery drains quicker
@@JohnPrice-e9x yeah the more effort the bike is putting in the faster the battery drains but also range decreases too.
In the Netherlands it is all about not having to wear a helmet. If you go above the 25 km/h, you are considered a moped and you have to wear a helmet. In Holland we don't like to wear helmets. we never do on bicycles.
My 1500w feels slow. I can't imagine being stuck with a 250w. I'd honestly rather just have a nice lightweight normal bike.
You make some great points. The only reason I can think of for the power limit is that it is easier to govern than speed. However, as you say, allowing manufacturers to include modes which exceed this does undermine this.
Well license it for road use and then you don't really have speed limit, ride on bike lanes where people go at most 15kmph or pedestrians which is 5kmph and you better be restricted.
If it's licensed for road use it's not allowed on bike routes.
Can you please clarify: at 3:47 it appears you're pedaling, thus I assumed it was an eBike. However, a few moments later when you stopped and stood still it looked like a moped or scooter. So was that vehicle an eBike or scooter?
It’s a scooter but is classified as en E-bike because it had pedals
@@Catonwatermelown Got it, thanks
Totally agree with your comments. I live in Wales, where there are more than a few steep hills. 250w is a ridiculous limitation. I'm toying with the idea of building a mid mount 250w mountain bike, but I still doubt that even in the lowest gear, the motor may just be too feeble to pull me up the steeper inclines. I currently have a 1500w hub motor fat tyre bike, and I have set the max speed as low as the controller will allow (20 mph). I rarely ride this bike for fear of being prosecuted, but when I do I hope that my self imposed slow speed, and common sense will prevent any issues arising, which so far has been the case. Not sure if I could swap out the controller for a better one that will allow a lower (15 mph) max speed to be set, but the hub motor is ideal for the level of assistance I need to remain mobile ( I'm 120 kg, 60 years old, and am suffering with long covid, and the after effects of a stroke). The law in this country really does need to be looked at in a sensible way, and maybe even apply categories to e-bikes like other countries do. I also think that all electrically propelled personal transport should be included so that e-scooters and e-monocycles can be used in public.
The closed minded approach that UK regulators seem to adopt makes this country a laughing stock in the developing world where new technologies arise on an almost daily basis.
I live in Wales too and there are Ebikes that can’t get up a 25% gradient even with the rider assistance, I’m fortunate enough to be able to get up that gradient on my normal mtb but when I look on Strava the power output up that hill I was putting out just over 1,000watts to go 6mph up the steepest point.
With a hub motor, power is directly proportional to rear wheel speed, so as the bike slows down, the power drops. This means that you could easily make a 250W hub motor climb pretty much any hill because torque is proportional to phase current and not to input power! I have a "250W" Bosch Gen4 CX motor in my e mountain bike and that will literally get up anything! 250W is plenty!
Lines need to be drawn at some point. If you want an electric motorbike go and buy one, there are plenty of road legal options available in the UK
@@ricrsv Yes I can go bye an electric motobike and do as I please As long as I pay money . $$$$$$$$$$$$$
Then live your life ….just buy a bike with 500watt motor and stop fussing life’s too short.
Actually, you can have as much power as you want. The question is, at what point should a motorized bike require a drivers license.
If you want a throttle on an ebike then buy a Powabyke, they have a throttle because they were made prior to the introduction of ebike regulations. My first ebike was a Powabyke, main downside was they’re heavy & came with lead batteries. You could change the batteries but the frame is heavy.
There are a million ebikes with throttles nowadays. Why buy a dinosaur?
@@petem.3719 in the UK the law says an electric bike with a throttle is illegal to use, however one made prior to legislation coming in is OK.
Can you tell the reasoning behind throttles being illegal? I think it’s the same on mobility scooters, but I don’t know why.
@@paulfrost8952 if throttles were allowed more people would use ebikes & less would use cars, cars generate income for the government whereas ebikes don’t. My ebike helps me get some exercise & has improved my health, its helped me manage my fibromyalgia pain as well. Happy with pedal assist myself so a throttle isn’t something I want, essentially the government class an electric bike with a throttle as a motorcycle & I’ve seen some that are faster than cars locally.
@@iantheinventor8151 thank you for your answer. If that is the Government’s reason for prohibiting throttles. I think they’re missing out on the VAT they’d get from electricity and e-bike sales. I still can’t get my head around them not being on mobility scooters as my right arm doesn’t function very well and those wig-wags speed controllers are a pain to use, well for my thumb!
what app did you use for speedo on your phone?
It's called Speedometer and is free on the play store.
So if i buy a 750w ebike with a throttle but as long as i disconnect the throttle and restrict the hub on the computer I’m fine ?
Not necessarily. Ebike brands manage to class their powerful ebikes as 250w when they're more powerful. If the motor says 750w you could still get into trouble especially if the bike is sold as a 750w ebike. You have no deniability. However if you do what you said... 1. You are EXTREMELY unlikely to get pulled unless you're on a bike that looks like a motorbike. And 2 by showing them that throttle doesn't work and it only goes about 16mph you're also EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to get into trouble. But there is always a possibility.
@@e-VRC have you ever had the crazybird jumper bike this claims to be a 250w but some people say it is a good one and doesn’t seem to lack power.thanks for the reply
@@leenlou3562 no not seen that one.
Let's be honest: 20mph is hardly rapid.
And if you can easily do more than that, either under your own steam or downhill with gravity assist, where is the logic in the 15.5mph limit?
It seems entirely arbitrary and serves no real purpose at all.
I see e bikes with 1000 watt motors zipping around Swindon often. they are faster than mopeds so they should have a license and insurance. problem is there is no enforcement. even though they ride past the police station. I see your point that people using them for mobility should be able to get up the hills in their area.
I ride motorbikes and acoustic bikes but haven't owned an electric bike, have enjoyed them whenever I've tried them though. I think we could do with a "best of both worlds" ebike class that requires a little bit of training, be over 16 and have some kind of 3rd party insurance but can do up to say 20 or 25mph with up to a 1000W or so motor. Essentially just a little bit less than a 50cc moped. Crucially I think these should be allowed on bike paths, perhaps controversially I think you should still have to pedal them if you're going above walking pace too. I think it's good to require some level of effort in order to add speed to avoid having people whisky throttling if they're in a sticky situation with other path users etc. My main thinking is this would hopefully get some cars on the road and get people moving a bit more!
I get passed on my ebike by the proper lycra clad hardcore cyclists on their carbon fibre bikes far more times than an illegal ebike. Its no use limiting the technology to try to control peoples behavior
kuya ano mainam na ebike sa pang lahat ng weather?
I have a quite expensive mid drive that originated on your side of the pond, but is spec'ed for sale in the US. So of course the speed is unlocked and will assist up to 28mph (45km). I like how you mentioned about the different motor types, because the difference between hub motors and mid drives is honestly night and day. I had a 750w (1,000w peak) hub motor ebike with a throttle, and that bike had issues with some hills. This new mid drive is a lowly 250w max, no throttle at all and I've yet to find a hill I can't pedal right up and over. It blows my mind sometimes. But then again it was more than 3x the cost of the hub motor ebike... and like you mentioned, that is an unfair barrier.
Not sure why people compare US vs European regulations on this issue, in US you don't have bike lanes or pedestrian lanes for that matter. Whilst here it is expected that you will ride your ebike on bike lanes or among pedestrians, not roads, may I repeat that, not on roads. 45kmph is fine in car traffic, way too much among pedestrians, hence why cars and pedestians don't mix.
There should be a law to get a limiting speed for E-bikes (not motor power), but to have a 3 way switch , level 1 is in crowded town areas with 15 mph (24km/h) that also has limited acceleration, to not flip the bike, or easily loose control from a powerful motor), then lv 2 is town bike lane and road side speed of 25mph (40km/h) , then outside the town, on communal roads we have lv 3 switch position for 50mph (80km/h) , but if you have a more powerful motor and a better frame that allows you to do more, then you should be able to, but with a motorcycle licence, and be able to go unlimited in level 4 , only limited by the motorcycle laws that you should respect.
(So, first 3 levels should be standard and respected, and have an indicator light to show what level you are in, with standardized colors, so you could or couldn't be held liable depending on the case, and to be able to get any power motor you want, and only the speed to be limited.)
@@fulconandroadcone9488 am actually pretty sure bikes are road vehicles in EU.
Either bike lanes or roads, but they do not belong on sidewalks (unless you are dismounted and walking next to it)
I believe you can even get a fee in bunch of countries for being on the sidewalk on a bike if you are over 10 years old.
@@Narinjas i like this. Shame it won't happen.
I think the problem has more to do with hub motors generally being very badly designed. Most of these products come straight from China and who knows how they speced that motor.
More power>faster acceleration>more dangerous/harder to control.
Due to faster acceleration you spend more time at higher speeds, increasing the amount of time spent in danger: of losing control, higher collision energy, brake wear and/or fade, frame material fatigue, suspension wear level.
This is also why learner motorcycles are power or power to weight ratio restricted.
Watched the whole video. I also agree with another comment that says assistance should taper off after 15.5mph up to say 18.5mph / 30kph. That small amount of extra assistance would make my 10 mile commute more viable. I also think a version of the German S Pedelec regs could be introduced here in UK with compulsory reg, helmet and, most importantly, insurance as a halfway point between ebikes and mopeds. UK Govt. could then at least give us the choice of a little more power and speed if we wanted it in a legitimate form.
Thanks for watching until the end! Yeah I think that would work well to overcome the resistance. Manufacturers should just do it anyway 😂😂
Speed pedelecs already are legal here in UK on roads only. It’s just not worth it because insurance is usually 3rd party only and the faf of getting a number plate, have to wear a moped grade helmet.
who checks what kind of ebike you have? And is it legal in UK to do an unwarranted search/check??
Man....U.K. laws for e-bikes are insane!!!
Y'all might as well not have e-bikes with that kind of nonsense for laws.
I'm about to purchase an e-bike that can go 30MPH on throttle alone.
It has a 52V, 60Ah battery connected to a 1000W nominal 1400W peak motor.
It has an estimated 100 mile range on throttle, an 200+ miles on pedal assist.
It's considered a class 3 e-bike. We don't need a license to operate them.
My current e-bike is 250W and tops out at 17mph ungoverned with the stock controller.
I wish we had the same laws
As a Brit I fully agree. If the politicians want to try get rid of cars for more electric cars and bikes, then surely they should do everything possible to encourage more people to invest in e-bikes even compared to e-cars.
15mph is just too slow. If any pedestrian; child, adult or disabled gets ran over by an e-bike going under 30mph then they should be refused free health care and be forced to pay for such care out of their own pocket. But no, instead they have the right legal right to seek damages against the "cyclist". Nanny state, absolute utter, total nanny state.
How fast can it stop from 30mph?,as good as car?😊
I wondered that too! No ABS either.
Another big factor nobody talks about is inner city speed limits of 20mph, so we have ebikes strugling to get upto speed on hilly roads in built up areas surrounded by cars that all want to do 18-22mph on the same roads, recipe for an accident.. why it was decided that the top level of assistance should be less than low speed limits is beyond me. Imo the off the shelf speed should be 20mph to match low speed roads close to schools and shopping centers etc, If the govt are serious about getting people green perhaps there is an arguement for a 28mph class that requires mandatory cycle helmets, proof of a CBT...and so on... to at least suggest the rider knows some highway basics and isnt likely to cause problems, a 45mph surron is an e-moped imo needs to be insured and treated like a small motorcycle tbh.
Your videos are the best e-bike reviews i've ever seen. I've just bought an ENGWE M20 off the back of it.
Ah thanks a lot. I hope the bike serves you well 👍
Those laws were meant to keep creaky blinders behaving like they should.
I don't understand how an ebike that can put out 250w or more couldn't get up that modest incline? I only use a regular road bike and I would fly up that hill putting out 250w of my own power. Is it a gearing issue?
5:50
I find 20 mph is a great cruising speed on an ebike. Easy to get where you are going and doesnt use a lot of power. I rarely ask the bike to go 32 mph but I like knowing the power/speed is there if I need it.
I wouldnt buy a bike that maxed out at 20 given you shouldn't be maxed out all the time.
It’s not maxed out at 20, but limited to 20. Big difference as far as motor efficiency and optimum performance is concerned.
I ride a standard road bike at an average of 20mph, nothing wrong with doing it on an Ebike.
You can get around 250w limit by using a mid drive geared motor they might be 250w motor but the output is way more
or you could get a normal bike and add a mid drive CYC Photon motor, looks small like a 250 but is 750w with 110 Nm torque
Feedback: yes you’re right, the video is pointless. There are hundreds of e-bike choices out there now but the U.K. legislation is just there to tell you that if the machine has a throttle it’s going to be classed as a motor bike. Just like any other motorbike if you want to use it on the road it has to have a reg. number.
Let me guess, you wore an excessive compliance muzzle/face nappy every day, tested regularly, and participated in the ‘safe and effective’ chemistry experiments. Darwin has a plan for you.
@@G58 no, just been caught by the police so many times.
@@Greatuesu-sg1br really? I thought all motor road vehicles had to be registered/insured no?
So you didn't watch the whole thing
@@philtucker1224 How do you get caught by the police on an e bike - even once? If they’re in a car, you just turn around and go in the opposite direction, then down an alley or across a playing field. Simple. They are just policy enforcers and revenue collectors in fancy dress costume.
I’m confuse.. So is it actually illegal to have throttle on your e-bike? If you’re not actually using it (unless you’re on a private road or land hence why some might want to keep it on rather than to disconnect completely) can you still get in trouble from a copper if they stop you on a main road for example?
If you have one but don't use it you're less likely to be stopped but you can still get into trouble if they decide to stop you since they won't accept 'but I don't use it' as an excuse. It needs to not work by either disconnecting it or disabling it in the computer. You're allowed to have a non working throttle since you are actually allowed throttles - they just can't propel the bike over 6kph
@@e-VRC so as long as it can’t propel the bike over 6kph, you are allowed to have it on the bike so in theory, the police have no ground to stop you in the first place to check if you have a throttle installed and get you in trouble simply because it’s on there?
@@mn2k2shox if they see you going fast without pedalling and not going down hill they may want to know how
So can i have a larger watt hub as long as its been restricted in the computer settings
I used to cycle a lot but now have a lung problem which has totally taken away my stamina and stopped me cycling.
I used to be able to achieve 40mph and rarely returned an average speed of less than 15mph even when out for 12hrs, that's 180 miles.
I use a car all the time now but await a law change, 25mph max would be suitable and sensible.
I'd love an ebike, I've 2 dodgy hips and 2 dodgy knees but due to the laws it's really pointless in me getting one 😭
Limit should be 1000w
1000w are you for real?
5000w!
Why does they have neither a speed or power limit on larger vehicles tho enless you go as big as a semi which just has a governor on speed around 70mph
This channel is now my go to resource for fodder in the highly unlikely event that I actually get stopped by the plod.
Made it to the end! Haha. It would be awesome to see a video showing a list of e-bikes that are registered as 250w, but can go higher off road, like you say. I’m specifically interested in bikes I can get in amazon.
Made it to the end boss! The laws are poorly written by those who do not fully understand the requirements. Kit bikes are the way forward.
Thanks for watching!
I am in Canada and e-bike laws are different here. We can have a max of 500w and 32 kph (20mph). My bike meets the exact legal specs of our class 2 specification and it does make a large difference on ease of riding. There are hills in my city that are still too much for my bike to tackle without my help on the pedals. Imagine if it was set when going below 20kph can push up to 1000w which is meant to take on hills but over a lower wattage like 500w. Still can have a 32kph speed cap which is not unreasonably fast.
An e-bike is supposed to be a bike that gives assistance to pedalling the bike, not for it to be powered by the electric motor without pedalling. I’m a cyclist and ride an electric motorbike, my friend rides an electric motorbike and Giant mountain e-bike, his comments were 15 mph is fast enough and if you want to go above 15 mph pedal faster, the law or motor doesn’t stop you from exceeding 15 mph, just stops the assistance!
Thanks for your input Karen
@@hughesy606 I’m sorry, I didn’t realise having an opinion wasn’t allowed unless it it’s yours.
@@swss ironic considering that your whole argument was based on your experiences, and not those of many of the less able in the chat to whom the bikes are gamechangers (at least they could be).
@@hughesy606 that’s as may be but calling me a Karen for expressing an opinion that 15 mph is fast enough isn’t called for. So what speed in your opinion is fast enough?
@@swss if you hold a full UK driving licence then there shouldn't be a restriction. Police them like you would a moped. If you don't hold a licence then the current regs apply, without the need for a provisional.
I've got a 2000 watt hub motor but I have got a couple of little custom sticker saying 250w output😂 one for the controller and one for the Hub motor
I live in Tenerife and use an ebike to get around. I completely agree with you about the power limit. 250W is no where near enough power to get up the hills here. Also, in Spain, it is legal to use an electric stand up scooter with a much more powerful motor. It makes absolutely no sense at all. I of course agree with the speed restrictions, but the power and accelerator restrictions are absolutely ridiculous.
Wow if powerful scooters were legal here but ebikes were limited we'd have our next video idea 😂 yeah that makes no sense at all.
My Swytch kit ebike rips up steep hills in highest mode. In lowest Eco mode (1 out of 5) it puts about 50/watts out which ungoverned and pedalling nicely lets me cruise at 30 kmph. In mode 5 pedalling doesn’t add any power and battery drains in 45 mins.
I live in South Wales (Welsh valleys) and everywhere is hills, even the horizon is up. I can't have a car or motorcycle licence on health grounds but I have no balance issues so don't require a disability "scooter". An e-bike with power (torque) and a throttle as I can't peddle much, but with limited speed is what I need so all I can do is break the stupid law in the hope the coppers don't realise that I am doing so. Like you said, it's absolutely ridiculous.
I’m in Snowdonia in the North. I’ll be opting for the 750W when I buy. I need the torque to get around. It’s very unlikely I’ll get stopped by the police because of the cycle tracks in the area.
I have just made an 8800 watt mid drive bike which I will ride with pedals and no chain as there is no law saying I need a chain can also tune in down to 250w
The speed limit is stupid and the power limit is completely ridiculous. I wouldn’t expect anything sensical out of GB 🇬🇧 though.
Agree ! I'm 60 years old and i can do 20MPH on my standard Hybrid bike ha! so where is a law on that ?? I also ride e-bikes which ALL do 30MPH and i am quite happy to PAS at 20mph ,i don't even think about laws because to me at my age life is now a bonus ha! The more e-bikes that are over 250W that are sold in the UK the better ! :) As is said in this video speed rule should be law ,power rule is CRAZY !
@jamjar47 remember, pedalling furiously is illegal! 😂😂
I'm 75, and I ride an eBike ( and a couple of road bikes) in the peak district, the Shimano Steps mid mounted motor is fantastic, and even on the "Normal" setting will take me up the steepest of hills at about 11mph, and 14-15 mph on "High" ( where I struggle to do 5mph on the road bike)
Sadly the gearing on my bike (A Kona Dew E, which is about 5 Kg Lighter than most) is a little low, and I "spin out" at about 25mph, but gravity assisted regularly hit 37mph. I't's brilliant, so good in fact that I've only done 50 miles on my motorcycle this year!
I'm afraid I'd have to say for my two cents worth, that BOTH the power limit and the speed limit there are totally bollocks, not just the former! We have hills here where I live in Arizona, in fact for the rides I make on my two bikes (1 e-bike, 1 conventional bike) I hit them often. Stand ups on the regular bike happen often. I especially like the e-bike for excessive summer heat times and excessive wind times both. Besides being super for backpacking groceries some of the time. Our speed limits here in fact ought to be higher, much less there! On the roads where the traffic is making 35 I don't see any reason for an e-bike to cut off at 28-31 MPH, (or simply maintaining more at 27 with a small grade) and in fact that makes the rider less safe due to the passing cars going 35-40 MPH. They should absolutely drop those kinds of restrictions there and change to the same to ours in the USA. An e-bike should be more useful than that, and like you were getting at for the aged and the less able, I entirely agree. Some of us ride them for the utility or for being less inclined at times to be out riding, but some others really, really need them to ride at all. Seeing this video makes me remember fondly the more mild summers in Oxfordshire especially.
I’m heavy and disabled, plus I live in very hilly Shropshire. I’m stuffed because the law prohibits anything to help me.
Agree with everything said. However, the lawmakers have to make up lame rules because of the irresponsible idiots that ruin it for everyone else.
Government assumes everyone is a moron and legislates accordingly.
There are irresponsible idiots in cars who kill people on the daily, except they can’t ruin it for everyone else because people are fine with cars going at whatever speed the roads allow, same for motorbikes and mopeds except their riders are more cautious on the whole as it’s their life on the line. I can’t conceive of a reason, beyond prejudice towards the new and fear of the unknown, that there is this double standard with personal electric vehicles. It is all just so stupid and I’m looking forward to the day people realise that, but knowing the UK that will be a looooong time from now, if ever. This country is so obsessed with nit-picky bullshit laws and rules and unfortunately the dumb public seem to gobble it up. Or at least that’s the impression I get when reading the Daily Mail comments on any article about PEVs. This country has nothing going for it right now.
Spot on. I’ve had my 750w bike with throttle for three years now. It’s capable of 30 on throttle . I go out on it at least twice a week and completely ignore the bullshit from politicians. I think all round, 750w is the minimum power you need, this will move me up hills and give me a bit of power to pull away safely.The key to not pissing off people is not to cane it on the roads. I always use the pedals, keep them turning to show I’m peddling don’t go over about 18mph, stay off pavements and respect other road users. Thus I’ve never had a problem.
I won’t be taken as an idiot by the government or police as I’m not causing any problems so it won’t apply to me.
Exactly.
My bike (with throttle) was turned away for a maintenance check…in fact the guy who works there, and has helped me in the past, apologised but said…because it has a throttle, we are not allowed to touch it…I was stunned.
couldn't you just take the throttle off and say what you talking about. most ebike throttles are easily removable and just a pull the connector.
Another woke and submissive, obedient shop by the sounds of it
The restrictive laws are down to lobbying the EU by petrol scooter manufacturers such as piaggio / Vespa / Gilera who could see a future where there sales would vanish. The absurd laws are from an EU directive hence there absurd & not concidered
I was ready to argue with you but you make good points. I live in a flat area and my ebike is abso fine. I get angry with ebikes passing me on a cycle lane when I'm at 15.5mph. Too dangerous
Agreed there shouldn't be passing in a cycle lane. And 15.5 is a good speed limit for cycle lanes.
@@e-VRC My commute is 8 miles. 30 mins approximately. No need to go faster
Another great video and like you I think the power law is nonsense and having been using my ebike for a couple of months the no throttle rule is dangerous when you start off, the speed rule I think it should be 20mph personally keep doing these great videos and thanks for all the information you put out for us....
Thanks for watching! Yeah when i ride along at 19/20 i think it's a great speed and makes a big difference.
Here in Germany we have e-Bikes with more power, throttles and pedals. We call them S-Pedelecs and they are limited to 45km/h or even more but need an appropriate license and insurance and you can't ride on bicycle lanes. Just like mopeds :)
This is why I'm an OUTLAW 🤠💯🇬🇧 YEEEEEEHAAAAA, and don't pay your Tv license folks ,they're all a bunch of devious barstewards 😂
😂😂😂
Surely there is a way to have a lts ay 1500w motor and have on your speed limiter different modes or defults which are all custom like an road mode having a liit of 15 mph and a offroad mode or countryside mode where its no speed limiter and you can go as quick as you can
I noticed how you ride and I would find it uncomfortable to pedal using the arches of my feet and you probably could put more power through the pedals using the balls of your feet. 😁
I remember buying my DIY 2000watt ebike could go 35 to 40mph, hub motor had to sell it as its annoying to undo the bolts and torque arm when you get a puncture in the rear
Sounds awesome... but annoying lol.
A 250W limitation is easy to implement for manufacturers and easy to check for manufacturers, while still living lots of room for electric power-train innovation. Also e-bikes are allowed on cycle tracks in dense cities where something more powerful could easily endanger pedestrians or other cyclists. I've been cycling in Paris for quite some time now and going too fast in boulevards like Sebastopol or Magenta can be dangerous. This is why speedbikes are classified as mopeds. It's not because regulators don't want people on bikes, but simply because they want to keep *everyone* safe including children, seniors, and beginners on muscular bikes.