Tesla’s don’t use hub motors! They use the same principle motor though. A single speed fed through a gear reduction. Also. Hub motors don’t cause loose spokes. But cheap, poorly made ones do😀 Hub motors still suck 🙌
Hub motors in bike are not well designed. Although a hub motor behaves like a single gear motor, the motor can have high torgue at low speed by supplying huge current like Tesla motors. The reason why it is not done, is due to poor cooling. Hubsink solves some of it. At high speed, in tge end, hub motors will win because of its size. Bigger size means it can handle more speed, so use a larger voltage. Geared motors do not need high voltage batteries and controllers because the gears make the motors behave like it operates at high voltage. Or high currents, at low gears. So, according to Physics, no different between motors, but because hub motor by itself is bigger, ultimately, you can operate it at higher powers. One advantage that the lossy geared motor cannot have over hub motor, is the silence. So silent in operation, meaning, it saves energy in the end.
Electric motors don't need multi-speed transmissions unless they are way under-powered. Think Tesla, not a POS unreliable Bafang mid-drive and its crap performance. Also, no crappy little geared hubmotors either if you want reliability. Who wants all that noise anyway? The bottom line is that for riding on relatively smooth paved surfaces direct drive hubmotors are best with the only exception being that you need to regularly carry your ebike (like up stairs). Nothing beats the silence, absolute reliability, or performance (all of my ebikes would laugh at your Bafang mid-drive. For off road riding hubmotors increase the rear wheel unsprung weight too much to be effective except in the lightest trail use.
Good video, but have to call bs regarding the torque and resulting load on spokes. It doesn't matter whether the torque is produced at the hub, or from a midmount via the chain, the loading on the spokes is the same. In your example with a midmount producing up to double the torque you would expect up to double the loading, and therefore double the wear and tear on your spokes.
Speaking as a 62 year old disabled person If anyone out there is confused or undecided on which configuration ebike to get I say any ebike configuration is better than riding a non ebike, don't fear jump in. I spent too much time trying to decide on the perfect one for me. I ended up buying a used one for a great price that doesn't meet the standards that I want in any way. The quality of my life has improved 100% by the mobility I now enjoy. I'm going to upgrade to a better ebike but in the meantime life is good. 😊
Thank you! 65 and looking for an E-trike (some balance issues starting). It limits my choices, but I am just looking for some exercise, not trail riding.
I am 69 and can’t walk a 100 feet without back spasms. I got a generic fat tire low slung ebike a few years ago and now have over 2500 miles on it! I have explored hundreds of miles of bike trails along ocean, lake and River fronts. I am 300 pounds and have powered up plenty of hills. I like to get some exercise so I always peddle. I get my ebike tuned up every spring and I have never had any of these problems. If my motor were to go out, I can go to Amazon or any number of on line shops and buy a Bafang motor wheel combination much cheaper than a mid motor.
I have both, practically speaking, I like redundancy with no down time, so my preference is hub. If my hub goes out I can still pedal, if my chain or gearset goes out, I have the hub. Two independent systems working in parallel. In my mid motor, if chain or gears go, I have to stop. Both have pros n cons as your video shows, I just prefer not to stop for my very ordinary rides.
I have a pretty cheap (but rugged!) ebike with a hub motor as a cargo bike, and I actually had that help me out. Middle of a street and the chain came off my front crank, and even on an uphill I was able to keep enough speed from the hub to pull off to the side.
Lol Clearly leg powered! Unless you're blessed with Hulk legs, that chain ain't goin nowhere! These new motors are so torquey chain snaps unfortunately are becoming commonplace. We just need to prepare so the downtime is less.
I've got both. The hubbers only fall short on the steep climbs. That's what the mid drive is for, tough single track. For exploring old tracks in the countryside the hubbers shine. The hubbers can negotiate high grass and overgrowth without getting the drivetrain entangled in grass. Just don't peddle and let the hub motor do the work. That is not possible on a mid drive or regular bike. Other advantages to a hubber is drive train redundancy, twice I've had to peddle and, once after bending the chain ring on a hidden stump at speed, rode out with just the hub motor. Also hubbers are cheap to repair. All in all I agree with Mr. Nerdout that mids out preform hubbers, but that doesn't mean hub motors aren't good. Just because a Ferrari will outpreform a Miata doesn't mean the Miata is no good.
I’ve had both. Although the mid drive does offer more torque via mechanical advantage of the gear system, I got tired of the chain getting whacked off because of the torque. Happy with my hub drive…
@@nicolaihilckmann4677 the source of the power is not the belt. It's belt coupled.. coupled to the motor via the belt. If you wanted to be technical and correct people, then "Controller driven" would have been a better correction on your part.
Have you ever looked at a bike before? The gear system decreases torque/increases speed. If the two different varieties of motor have the same torque output, then the hub motor will have higher torque at the rear wheel.
@@EGL24Xx Pretty sure the mid drive motor have a built in reducing gear, to make up for the decrease of torque to the wheel. So in lower gear, the mid drive definitely have a higher torque. That doesn't change the fact that hub motor are, overall, better
See below... I believe these ding bats are trying to say... a one to one ratio is the most efficient. If mid drive reduces at the crank to increase at the hub.. it is not more efficient .
Thanks for the info, I’m happy with my folding 500 watt hub, bought it in 19 and have had no problems. I’m retired and use it to cruise around every other day, it’s great against the wind and will go uphill a bit, not like your bike but good enough on the prairies. The one problem I should mention is that in hot weather after a while the thermal switch kicks in and it shuts down. 5 minutes in the shade and it’s ready to go. I’ll try out your recommendation for my next bike.
Thanks for the comparison. I've broken a couple of spokes on my $200 ebay 1kw hub motor but it otherwise seems bombproof. I use it solely for commuting and errands but have over 3k miles on my 2nd hand kit, seems very reliable. Not having to pedal is nice when I take it to work so I'm not sweaty, definitely an advantage of the hub motor if that's your use case.
Good points . I dont know how many miles I put on mine riding it almost every day for years , but I bet way over 15000 miles, Ive worn out more tires than I can rember , I have broken some spokes and each time I replaced with larger dia intill I got the largest the motor can take , problem solved. no more broke or lose spokes !
Hub motors are great. I have a hub drive 750w Himiway Cruiser. I don't need a lot of high end type performance. Im sure that mid drives are great, but that doesn't just simply discount all the benefits of a hub drive system. I weigh 230 lbs and my hub drive zips me up hills in my town no problems. I have almost 450 miles on my ebike and have zero complaints.
I have 2 hub motor bikes, and I am sure I would enjoy the mid drive bikes also, but they were much more expensive. He is only talking about the price here of the motor itself, but for some reason the price of actual pre built bikes seem to be much more expensive for mid drives. You could say that is because the frame has to be more specially made, but many of the hub motor frames now are also special built for the batteries and stuff. ALSO one thing I think a hub motor can do that a mid drive can not do, and correct me if I am wrong, but a hub motor can allow you have a throttle on the bike and not have to peddle at all when using the throttle. I do not use that much, but I love it when you start riding to get going, it makes it easier.
@@Crypton_XD Where can you buy a mid drive kit for like 200 bucks. i would be very happy to know. I myself just bought a 200€ hub motor kit and a separate battery for another 200€. The lowest price mid dives i can find are somewhere between 400-500€ and that's way too much for me and they don't even come with a battery.
One kind of related comment: The hub motor shown here has a relatively small diameter, I've used one with a 10" diameter and the torque is enormous because the moment arm is longer. So a better comparison would be between a mid motor and a large hub motor with the same wattage.
@@difflocktwo in the ebike world, more money spent normally means more power and more performance, assuming you know what you're doing. And how much does regen help you anyway? I was just joking but its definitely something to think about
@@TheFilminators Regen helps a lot. Otherwise I'm changing brake pads all the time (bicycle brake pads are small). With Regen I don't use my pad brakes 90% + of the time and regen doesn't care about water/mud/ice. Pads last years instead of months with regen. Hub motors are so much cheaper that you can spend the price difference on a bigger battery.
I live in Europe and here, things are a bit more complicated. If you want to buy a new bike with a mid drive, you will pay a lot more, than with a hub drive. I drive both and for me, it's more a question of the riding style. I totally agree with you on the fact, that a mid drive is more natural, like a normal bike. I have a Bosch on my Cube, and yes it's really good. On the other side I have a totally cheap trekking bike with a 250W hub motor, just a cadence sensor, no throttle as it isn't allowed here, and I love it too. As much as I love the Bosch, it is to loud and at 25km/h I get stuck in a to slow or fast gear. Thats frustrating and I don't get a Deore 10 speed cassette with a better ratio to fix that problem. Thats an unknown problem with my hubmotor, as it feels like you just riding a wave. I really love high cadences, and for that, a hub motor is the best, in my opinion. All mid drive motors I've tested, are getting very loud once get over 90 crank revolutions. When you hit 100 and more, you just have to love the sound of motors. My hub motor is just quit. I will never get up mountains with it, but if you live in a flat area I think, the hub motor is a very nice option. And another thing, my Bosch bike needed a fresh wear set after 4000km, my trekkingbike with the hub motor is on it's first wear set without any problems after 12.000km. So when someone ask me, what should I get, I wouldn't just say mid drive as I think hub motors can be very very nice.
Ya, both BOSCH and Shimano STEPS are overly expensive for what you get. They use to be the only option for mid-drive with torque sensing, but now there are numerous options on the market.
@@williamedwards6519 You guys are trying so hard to talk shit about hub motors, but I bought 1 hub motor 4 y ears ago. I run it at 750w, 1000w sometimes (I have a switch I flip for 1000w) and I have put probably 1000+ miles on it. Hub motors don't burn out. If they do somehow burn out, they must be using some really old ESC or something because mine cuts out if the bike doesn't move (if I try to start it on a steep hill or like if the front wheel is against the wall or something). I think the guy who made this video and many in the comments should take apart a hub motor and look at it because it doesn't work how you guys think.
@@waynefilkins8394 The guy is comparing low end, low power bike setups. Obviously a 250W mid drive will outperform a 250W hub motor. But hub motors shine if you do long range or high power cruising, or you have a throttle, since hubs are so much smoother to use with a throttle than mid drives.
I agree that mid drives are better but the thing you said about the spokes is true for a mid drive as well. When you peddle your bike on a mid drive the power will end up at your back wheel and if it making more power it should be harder on your spokes on that wheel.
You’re right, in both cases, all the torque is transferred through the spokes. The video clip comparing mid and hub motor seems bogus to me. How can the pedals be stationary on the mid motor when powering up the hill? The cranks are connected to the main sprocket which is providing the motive power to the back wheel. Can someone explain?
@@kevinmills5293 The mid-drive can drive the chain round via a throttle, even if the rider is free-wheeling. I don't know if you can see the chain still turning in this video, but that's the real difference. Mid-drive uses the chain and gears, hub goes directly to the wheel. While it's true that mid-drive is more mechanically efficient, it also wears the chain more, and you have to work your gears. With hub-drive and a throttle you can use the motor to go from a standstill to cruising speed regardless of whether you forgot to change gear when slowing down. Hub is easier for the user, but mid drive uses the power you apply more efficiently. With a mid-drive if your chain breaks or falls off you're stuck until you fix it.
Both mid-drive Motors and hub Motors transmit all the power to the tire through the spokes. And in fact if the mid Drive motor is more powerful and allows you to accelerate harder than the hub Drive motor it would be harder on the spokes then would be the Hub Drive motor which is weaker.
@@Matt-og5kd weight is irrelevant as any weight on the bike is on the wheel core equally the same. i could say it is probably the vibrations caused directly from the motor if spokes getting loose is true at all..
The weight does matter in that it will resist changes in velocity like a flywheel…. But that is pretty much errelivant to the spokes themselves…. This conversation is sort of errelevant too the original comment I feel is correct the forces on the spokes remain pretty much the same….
@@johnmccatherin5892 With any suspension system, mass on the wheel-side and not the chassis-side is unsprung. On a car for instance this is the wheel, wheel carrier, wheel hub/bearing, brake rotor, and brake caliper. Unsprung mass is bad since it is quite literally mass that vibrates without being damped by the suspension.
I converted my Santa Cruz blur to a bafang mid drive over a year ago. It's brilliant so much power. I love it off road. Recently I added a boxer tripple crown fork (2nd hand) and a dropper seat post. Pavement road riding 35+ miles. Dirt steep hills and canyons 20+. 500 watt battery. Cheers from California
I’ve had both a hub and mid drive@ Specialized Vado and a Rad Rover, much prefer the hub motor on the Rad. Just my opinion. Haven’t had any problems with my hub drive, but plenty of issues and expensive problems with the mid drive. I also like how the hub drive feels over the mid drive.
JohnnyNerd, I did it. I successfully converted my hub motor ebike to the Bafang mid-motor and WOW, what a difference. Smoother ride, better acceleration, more power, and quieter. Thanks for your advice and videos. I will be upgrading my wife's bike next.
@@ltpltp323 I have the Bafang 500 watt. I'm getting about 20% less battery life over the 350 watt hub motor I replaced. Faster (up to 28mph), much smoother, more power on hills, big upgrade from Hub motor. (I carry a spare battery on the bike)
Firstly congrats. You replaced a 350 watt cheap with a 500 watt middrive & guess what, it's faster & pulls better. That you have to carry a spare battery for a 350-500 watt kit seems a bit strange, I first had a 13 ah battery for a 1500 w hub, depending on how much I pedaled I could get 48-50 miles before the battery died, I now use a 17ah battery on a 1500w hub & get over 60 miles range comfortably, what batteries are you using?
@Mal S I agree. But, I bought 2 ebikes hub motors for the price of one mid drive ebike . One for me and one for my wife. And, I use my wife's bike battery if I want extra range. My two batteries together I have way more range than any mid drive motor ebike for the price of my two e-bikes. If money is not a problem, yes mid drive motor is better, but I don't think is worth it, if you are tight in money, hub motor is a better.
Good on ya. There's that one company that has a fold out, free delivery, comes assembled. Has a GIGANTIC following with many many RUclips independent video creators, going over the "issues' after a couple years of hard use. Yeah it's a hub motor bike that receives alot of praise. Ordered one 2 weeks ago can't wait.
Chains DO break!! And when you break a chain and you are 35 miles from home in the countryside with no towns or no one to help you, are you going to want a mid drive or Hub motor in that point in time??? Ask me how I know!!! They have motor will still get you home and I will from now on stick with my Hub Motors thank you very much!
People just learning about e-bikes should take note of your advice. Back in 2015, when I got interested in e-bikes, it took months of research to learn what you just covered in under 12 minutes. Well done!
I can relate, did the same in 2015 and gave up to build a few 80cc gas bikes that all ended up needing loads of maintenance. Fun, sure but electric just was out of reach till 2020 for me.
@@JasonStPierre I love electric but I'm sure you learned loads of valuable maintenance skills and had a ball. Probably made you appreciate electric motors more than most riders too.
@@grantadamson3478 I know. Afterwards I realized how much I left out. I think a part 2 is in order😀 mainly I can’t believe how I left out how much of a pain the butt it can be to change your tire with a hub in it and how most bike shops won’t touch it if it’s a hub motor. As soon as I get time I’ll make a follow up 😀
Thank you ! I searched for weeks to find info on electric bikes . Today I use a standard pedal , it's great exe4cise BUT...I am 86 yr old ...hope to be around another 14 years.
I enjoy my hub motor conversion . In Australia we can only legally have 250w motors anyway . Yes you get more power from a mid drive but also more drive train wear which you didn't mention . My spokes have never been loose yet and it's easy to keep a eye on them and adjust them if needed . Hub motors are a lot cheaper to buy and less maintenance so it's hubs for me :-)
Yup this, I chose a hub because of less maintenance and less chain wear. It only goes up to 25km/h so it does not matter how much more powerful a mid-drive is
if yoj are climbing insane climbs say goodbye to your hub motor on the middrive you can use the gears of the bike to have more climbing power. i guess if you live in a rather flat are you arent going to need a middrive but if you are climbing insane hills middrive is for you
On road i do climb big hills with my hub drive , i use the throttle when pedaling and go up with ease . Iv'e seen teeth ripped off gears and chains break with mid drives . Hub drives still get you home if you break a chain etc . For me personally hub drives are better , i'm 68 and ride 30/40 kilometers distance sometimes which i wouldn't do if i had a normal bike so good exercise for me :-)
@@stoutdog56 yup. The New World Order fascist government interventions must end the easy way or the hard way, up to all the Karen & Brandon sheep how they wanna receive their beating.
I wanted to get an e-bike kit for some time but I couldn’t decide whether to get a hub or mid drive but your video convinced me to get a mid drive so yesterday I ordered a Bafang 750W BBS02B mid drive kit. Thanks.
Great video on the comparison. I have both, a 750W hub and a 1000W BBSHD. Been riding my hub drive bike for like 7 months and yesterday was my first time riding my bike with the BBSHD and the difference in power is night and day. Torque, speed and the quiet motor on the mid drive is super nice.
I have both too.. each has it's place but the mid drive is like ten times more efficient and powerful.. just learn to pull the break lever slighly between shifts to save wear on your chain drive.
You can't really compare your motor's unless your less powerful motor was mid drive. But it is only common sense that a mid drive motor with gears would be better at hill climbing and range and speed
I have both drive types and I had the hub first since it is cheaper. My first bike $800 amazon, second $2100 from China direct. The later bike has a 1000w Bafang mid drive. The ability to use the assist up hill is cool, but the 7 gears are not always easy to use. The difference between driving stick and manual, you have to think, and not always when it is convenient. You have to shift ahead of hills or you end up power skipping the chain with the motor assist. For my $2100 bike it only uses gear 1 to climb any significant hill. I tried gear 2 and it skips like crazy in any assist level. My 7 only works on a perfectly flat road or down hill, or it will skip with assist even in assist level 1. 6 is my go to cruise speed. I work through 3, 4, and 5, often. I been riding both bikes to the battery is out lately. I park one and hope on the other. The top speeds and average speed is not that different. The key difference to top speed is how full the battery is. When it gets low it gets much slower. When either bike is full I hit 20pmh easy. I think that is funny since the cheaper bike has the 500w hub motor. The hub motor bike I leave in the mid range of gears most the time and forget it unless necessary in the moment. Now for the steepest hills, mid-drive wins, being in gear 1 with power assist 5 is a dream, as it mitigates the down side of the granny gear, the infinite crank turns it normal takes to get to the top, can be streamlined by the motor. I hope it is easy to upgrade and replace the sprockets on my mid drive bike. It will surely destroy chains and the gears faster with the motor torqueing the drive train. So my conclusion is the increase in money had some rewards but not necessary enough to justify the cost increase. Both ways have pros and cons that any buyer should understand. For a budget friendly entry into ebikes. I recommend the hub as it is much cheaper. A lot of people I know do not use the bikes as much as the imagine any how. The thrill of the motor assist bike can be had on either. At least hub motors chain won't suck your pants in!
Hey, modearnity : T That was a lot to read to understand your point. Here is the issue I just wrote about - What are your thoughts on converting to a 3-sp IGH rear drive?
Hey Johnny, thank you for the video! Lots of good points here. I've got a mechanical engineering degree and run an ebike shop that exclusively uses hub motors, so I have a different perspective (obviously!). I think you're mostly incorrect and I'll start with 3 points: reliability, aesthetics, and REGENERATIVE BRAKING! First, you already noted this, but hub motors do not cause broken spokes, and if you know how to properly build a wheel around a hub motor (low spoke angles/cross patterns, quality parts, spoke prep, and attention to detail is basically it!), you're golden. Additionally, hub motors have 0-1 stages of gear reduction, not the typical 2 of a mid drive (fewer parts to fail), and do not contribute to chain wear and breakage. Reliability goes to HUB MOTORS. Second, hub motors look great, smaller ones are super stealth, and it's possible to integrate a controller in a motor (like old BionX systems did) or, as we do, in the battery using a hub motor. So hub motors look better too - or at least, are comparable. THIRD: REGENERATIVE BRAKING! With the right motor and setup, you can recover 15% of your energy used in hilly areas, and more importantly not wear down your brake pads when you brake. It's awesome, you should try a proper high-torque regen ready hub motor some day (like the GMAC motor from Grin Tech paired with their Phaserunner).
Some of it is opinion for sure, like aesthetics and reliability ( until we have actual factual data) for me the performance outward any benefit from a hub. Hubs are fine if you live in a retirement home in Florida with no hills in sight IMO😝. I’m not sure if %15 is attainable for the average bear, maybe if your actively “hypermiling” but realistically I’d say it’s more like 3-5%. That is awesome that you run a shop though, do you sell premade Ebikes or do conversions?
Highly unlikely your ANY kind of an engineer, or your wouldn't make such stupid claims. Regen on a bicycle is quite useless (except for the brake pad thing, which is a non-issue as well due to very cheap, and easy to swap) as they just don't have enough weight to generate much useful energy (rarely coast past 25-30MPH) your 15% claim is GROSSLY EXAGGERATED. What you do get is a lot of extra drag when your batt. goes flat. Yep, small "shiny" hub motors do look pretty good, say a 250 watt like Giant used one time, in the same sentence you mention BionX, they are HUGE, and ugly as shit. Anyone who thinks a hub is as good as a mid drive either lives on a pancake, or has not tried a mid drive, I have both, and live 600 feet "up" from town, the 500 watt BBS02 does not see, or slow down on the hill, ha I don't even have to pedal, the 500 watt (also bafang) hub struggles hard, AND uses about twice as much battery doing so, and if I didn't pedal quite hard it would stop completely. Hub motors are OK if you live on relatively flat ground (they're still NOT as efficient) if you don't live on flat ground the SUCK, period. Like Johnny said you don't drive around with your car in high gear all the time do you ?...OH, maybe "you" do, I forgot, your an engineer. PS your hub kit is WAY over priced.
I have converted bikes with Bafang Middrive motors (3 Conversions) and 2 Grin GMAC conversion with phaserunner. The GMAC Hub motor beats the Middrive hands down in my opinion on all aspects. (Handling, feel of the bike, shifting, off-road and pavement experience) Another aspect for my area, I have local trails that forbid E-Bikes. The hub motor conversion allows me to throw the original wheel back on the bike and be trail legal) I can climb the local mountain (Trail or road) much easier than the Bafang BBSHD drive with the GMAC hub motor and have 14% regeneration at the end of the ride. Beat that Mid-Drive. Have Grin Tech build your wheel for $60. And that useless Regen.... get's me back home after climbing the local mountain for a 48 mile round trip on a 13.5 amp hour battery. I have gotten 20% regen at the end of rides in the local hills. I think hub motors have a bad rap from people using cheap, poorly made motors with crappy controllers.
Agree 100%. Front hub is simple and bullet proof. If you bust the chain on the trail, the hub motor will get you home. My bike has plenty of hill climbing ability. I did the conversion myself for a fraction of the cost, even using quality parts.
@@bobwelwood3093 Amen brother! You and I think very much alike. I lace all my own wheels and everything. It is so easy I can't believe some people pay as much as $100 to lace a wheel...
I have to admit, I didn't put much stock in mid-drives, until I had a chance to try (at an ebike rental shop) several hub and mid-drive 1000w bikes, while I was selecting which one I wanted. Holy crap the difference in torque is just... insane. There was this inclined driveway (at least 30 degrees) to the shop (a good place to test the bike's climbing power), and with my 120 kilos, even geared 1000w hub motors REALLY struggled to get me up on torque alone. They managed, but at a crawl, something like 8 kph. The single gearless one I tried couldn't even move. The mid-drive - I just shifted to the 3rd lowest gear, and it powered up the driveway effortlessly. Jeezus. With my delivery-job, and the hilly areas I sometimes have to traverse, it was a no-brainer for me to choose the mid-drive one. Now yes, it takes a bit more thinking to drive (I have to remember to downshift on every stoplight), but - that torque. I'm in love.
@@Mark-qv4bn With the mid-drive, you have to constantly shift, or you'll rip up the chain. All the power goes through that chain, so being in the right gear at the right time is essential. Try moving in a high gear, the motor will either stall or overheat, or in case of more powerful mid-drives, snap the chain. Same principle as oveheating the clutch in a car, if you try moving slowly in high gear. If you don't want to constantly shift, go with a hub drive. The drive unit is separate from the chain. But the price is lower efficiency and less torque up the hills.
I think most of the responses are being delivered from serious high-power mid-drive folks. Cool. I also believe the point here is to demonstrate the advantages of a minimum wattage motor(750w USA) - which it clearly does with ANY kind of serious hill/incline challenge. This type/style of hub-cycle is fine if you live on basically flat ground at any wattage. (I'll beat ya up my hills) As Johnny says, "It's way better to drive a mid-drive than anything else"
Although I prefer mid drive motors over hub motors for my area and riding style for many people hub motors work better. Several of my friends have Rad rovers with thousands of miles on them. Never any spoke issues although one burned out a motor due to weight and over stressing it on super steep hills. For flatter areas and non enthusiasts hub motors are an excellent choice. Mid drive motors stress the drivetrain and chain and poor adjustments to the drivetrain can and will snap chains. The average rider doesn’t know how to swap out a chain quickly and it is usually a messy job. I use a direct drive hub motors in my pusher bob trailer . Small wheel dives great torque and 48 volts gives speeds over 30 mpg. If a wheel is built properly a hub motor should be just fine. Plenty of non motorized bikes have wheel and spoke issues
Yes they do know how to replace a chain, I did it not knowing at 6 years old on a normal chain, now with a master link chain anyone can do it in 10 seconds, does the average user know how to replace a wheel compared to a chain witch is just a loop, the average person isn't buying mid or hub they are buying a premade
@@tomlamb3885 huh 🤔? Give the average person a broken chain and have them fix it. 1. Do they How to make it the right length? 2. Do they know how to use a quick link? 3. Do they know how to use a chain breaker. 4. Will they get grease all over their hands 🙌? 5. Will they know how to thread it properly through the derailleur? 6. If the mess up they probably need a special pliers type tool to undo the quick link. I would suggest that they would be more willing to change a tire vs a chain. Furthermore if they break a chain on a hub drive setup they can throttle home. I speak from years of experience and also ran a bike shop for a number of years. I prefer mid drive motors myself but I think many people are better served by hub motors.
@@richardwolf6269 length isn't super important if your trying to get home, everyone knows how to use a quick link it has 2 photos for instructions thats how easy they are and the pliers come free with the chain but their not special needle nose will work too They can thread it the same way it came out or just google a single image of the chain, if you can replace a tire then you can use a masterlink, since replacing a tire is much more difficult in terms of strength, fitting the actual rubber over the rim normally needs those plastic stretching things, idk what their called but they hold the tire in place, you need a bike pump and possibly a wrench to undo the bolt if its not quick release, if your replacing a chain it probably takes 15 mins and you need 1 tool but a tire needs 2 to 3 tools and will take around 15 mins to put the tire on the rim and maybe another 5-10 to blow up an inner tube or check/ find leaks. Years of experience in taekwondo tell me im right
@@johnyradio2 it's *much* easier to find high-wattage hub motors then mid-drives, you can compensate, and since most of the controllers don't even have restrictions built in.... He probably means "I've got the grunt of 3500w-5000w making my dropouts weep"
I prefer hub , you have a back up if your chain snaps , hub doesn’t rely on gear box or chain or another set of electronics ...just more stuff to go wrong , KISS keep it simple stupid. the gears were shown to be slow and inefficient early on ... As for spokes you supposed to check you wheel is true weather you have a e bike or not , you can always use mag wheels ! Regular maintenance is essential for every bike , car , van, truck ...
I had too much issues with hub motors. I had to replace two times my hub motor due to internals meltdown. I live in a location with many steep hills and a hub-motor doesnt take the advantages of the chain when driving uphills. Instead the hub-motor just uses full power to reach its speed target. After replacing the motor for second time, I sold it and bought a mid-drive ebike and no issue since then.
Really helpful since most of the reason I'm looking for an E-bike over a regular bike is because my town is very hilly. Anything to make my ability to get around easier. I know it will be hard on the motor either way, but motors can be replaced much more cheaply than my legs which are much closer to needing major surgery.
One of the hills around here I'd like to get up quickly has a 20% grade. At 10 mph that would take 850W just for the change in potential energy, not accounting for rolling resistance and any loss in power between what the motor produces and what's delivered to the wheels. He said in the video that the front hub motors somehow deliver a lot less torque, so apparently for equal wattage, you somehow have much more power loss between the stated wattage of the motor and what the bike actually gets.
I had a hub motor that drew 1100 to 1200 watts going up a particular hill at 7 mph with me pedaling as hard as I could in my long-wheelbase recumbent. I ground the spoke rings off that *exact* *same* *motor* and clamped the axle to a frame extension so it drove a freewheeling sprocket crank-motor style. (The whole motor still spun.) From there, I ran a chain to a freewheeling crank and adjusted the sprocket size until the motor's ideal RPM matched my preferred cadence. I went up that same hill at 12 miles per hour using 700 watts, also pedaling as hard as I could. I had much more power, much more speed, and about three times the range with the motor mounted to drive the crank. Not only that, but one day the motor seized on me. I just removed the chain that ran from the motor to the crank and pedaled home the old fashioned way. If it had seized on the hub I would have been calling everyone I knew who had a pickup truck. So, the only thing I like better than a motor that drives the crank is a motor that drives a chain that drives the crank.
@@wesnxs, it was a sealed motor. The point is that it had over three times the power per kilowatt hour going up hills when it drove the crank instead of driving the hub, and that seizing did not leave me stranded as a hub motor would.
honestly I'm planning on upcycling old bikes into e-bikes and i love the idea of using hub motors for them. the majority of the market I'm planning on selling to cant afford mid drives. also i love the idea of setting up all wheel drive bikes. making some really fun off-roading possibilities for the kind of off-road i can still do with my shyte back.
Just be prepared to purchase a stock of various spokes and string and true a bunch of rims. My first one took about 2 days of trial, error and learning but after that it gets easier.
@@andypandy7769 thanks for the info will be pretty careful. theres a good chance that i will be buying custom built batteries from a fella ive seen here on youtube. but that all depends on money.
I think I'll go with mid drive. Just gonna wait couple months for price drop promotion. I like being quiet, stelt and more efficient. You don't have drag when you pedal only. It can't overheat. You can climb hills. Also you are lighter with couple kg or so. Only downside is snapping chain and price, but just be little careful and you will be fine.
My hub does all of those things. Quiet, no drag on pedals, doesn't overheat after hours, climbs hills like it's nothing, doesn't snap a chain and was like $250.
@@wob6776 Hub drives literally over heat way more than mid drives. And my hub drive and mid drive bikes are equally silent. Hill climbing is not even close lol
There is one thing I have not seen people mention. For a hub drive e bike it's very difficult to take the drive wheel off. For example when you have a flat that can not be patched and you have to replace the whole tube or when you have to replace your tire, it is a nightmare especially the hub drives with torque arms installed.
I've had a few pinch flats with my hub drive bikes and yeah it isn't easy, but I got the hang of it finally and have the tube changed in 15 minutes with the tools I carry with me when I go exploring.
you can geta inner tube that comes with an end, its not circle so you can put in your wheel with out taking it off. They on amazon for £29, expensive yes but easy to put on.
Fixing a rear flat can definitely be challenging on some bikes with a rear hub motor. My ancheer does not have a plug on the wires to the rear hub. They are continuous to the controler, and there isn't enough slack to get the rim off.
My hub drive in conjunction with my 24 speed Shimano Gears (3 on the crank & 8 sprocket cassette) allows me to ride my bike like a bike NOT a motorcycle (I almost NEVER use the throttle feature) The reason I bought this setup is so I can get the exercise & not the bike. My daily street ride is 10-15 miles and only use 1-2 power level to assist me on hills that are approx 20% of ride. Utilizing the proper gearing allows me to consistently get 60-70 mile range, between charging, on my Ancheer Blue Spark w/36v/10.4Ah/350 Watt rear Hub motor. I think the most important feature on my bike are the HYDRAULIC disc brakes.
That's a great comment you've made I have just brought a rear hub drive I use it like a normal mountain bike but use the electrical power to help with the hills at 63 years old and 16 stone I'll take that
Have been working on a bicycle shop as well. We sold many mids and hubs. The reliability- you don't mention the effort and cost of fixing a mid that has worn out bearings and gearing system parts. That's why I run a hub motor.
In my experience it’s easier working on a mid drive. But slightly. Possibly because I’m used them now. I guess it also depends on what you have to repair on each motor.
Or the excessive wear on your drivetrain, I basically had to replace everything but the rear derailleur every six to eight months. Don’t get me wrong mid drives have a lot of advantages but bike drivetrains aren’t built to commute with 1500w of power plus me every day.
After having replaced the hall sensors on a hub motor because the cheap bearings wore a bit, causing scraping on the outside of the rotor....I'd happily replace gears or bearings in a mid drive motor. Hall sensors can be very tedious and time consuming.
@@sunyun4425 the one i did was an unbranded chinese motor. on a gio scooter...solid hub wheel, no spokes. sealed with silicone, just splitting the hub open was a challenge - it was apparently never intended to be serviced. then to get the hub motor wheel bearings done, need to clip off the plastic plug because its bigger than the bearing bore...were talking a couple hours here at minimum. doing the hall sensors including soldering and splitting the hub open was around 4-6 hours....so yeah internal gears on a mid motor i think access and service would be a lot quicker.
Great video Johnny. I agree with Johnny. I decided to use an E-bike to commute to work, so I can avoid looking like I was in the TDF when I get to work. I converted my 8 speed internally geared bike using a 750 watt mid-drive. It has a tension sensor on my shift cable. The sensor causes the motor to pause when I shift through my gears. It reminds me of cars I have owned that have a stick shift and a clutch! It works great. I start in 1st gear and shift up as I gain speed. I don't have to use the high assist to accelerate. I have lots of stop/start intersections to deal with in my commute and using the gears is a lot better on the battery. I rarely get past the 5th level of assist in my commute and its usually 4-5 minutes fast than just pedaling. I don't think I will break a 1/8" chain any time soon.
As far as “transmitting power through the spokes”, that is EXACTLY THE SAME for mid-drive motors. Do you even Physics, bro? In fact, you just got done telling us that mid-drive motors have higher torque, so mid-drive motors are *even harder* on spokes than hub motors!
What works the spokes loose it the way the torque is applied. Hub motors are direct. The mid drive is cushioned through the chain and driveline. Do YOU even physics? Same principle is why an engine creates more HP at the crank than at the wheels. You should have a basic understanding about ANYTHING before sucking on your foot this hard. ever.
I think they come apart in hub motor types (I'm assuming he's experience is valid) is because hubs have like 21 poles or something, so in each turn off the wheel they get a big pull then smaller power 21 times, which instead of continuously pulling would rather shake it, or hit it, like an impact driver. Mid drives have reduction, the motor spins much faster, so the big pull isn't that much of a problem as the motor switches poles (like 4k30hz vs 1080p120hz, you g get the same amount of pixels, but damn the 1080p120 will look nicer to your eyes, especially in games)
Not tried a mid-drive but very happy with my hub drive, assist only (UK) Absolutely no trouble with varied terrain (hills, valleys, on my commute) I have had the chain come off when I was starting out, over bumps, but that was probably more how I was riding it, I would stop peddling when hitting a bump but through cycling confidence, I don't anymore.
Having driven both for 10 000 km, I would choose hub motor on front wheel. It's better in deepish snow (or sand), because with both wheel drive it's easier to go straight and have better traction. Lower power output don't really matter, because speed is regulated to 25 kph (well, mine goes 33 kph) and battery capacity is not a problem. And hub motor is more maintenance free, with mid drive I needed to replace chain on that 10 000 km once, no such need with hub motor. ;) For biking enthusiasts who drive longer distances on one go, don't have snow and actually bother to do some maintenance more than once a year, mid drive is probably better. I don't do much maintence, just add some pressure to wheels when it gets so heavy that it drains battery too fast. As a sidenote I don't even change studded winter tires at summer, because with ebikes it's better to have bit of exra sound, so that I don't need to ring a bell to get past people. For some reason, ringing a bell really annoys some people and reaction times are anyways too slow and sometimes reaction is that people get into way.. Much smoother going through traffic with winter tyres, everyone keeps out of way and no negativity at all.. And it seems that bike thieves are not really interested about my bike. There's not so much valuable parts in hub motor ebike, where as mid drives are valuable.
I keep hearing this "replacing the chain" business. Few things easier than, "replacing a chain". They are easy to carry with you and all you need is a chainbreaker.
@@BillOweninOttawa Well, first replacing the chain, is a hassle, it's maintenance. Then, carrying a chain and a chainbreaker everywhere, is REALLY annoying and should be unnecessary. Lastly, we are talking about having to replace your whole drivetrain because it will be worn out way faster: cassette and crankset, not only the chain.
@@xmtxx chainbraker and chain lock should be enough. And it's close to impossible to break a properly made chain, aside kmc garbage. Cassette is worn by worn chain not otherwise. And not way faster.
I have hub motor 1000w. Controller built in. Downside is I had to file the dropouts on the bike, a rear puncture is a bch. Pros, it has a throttle, I don't even peddle to work. Goes thirty miles an hour and if I peddle to get it up to speed it's faster than the average car off the mark. I can ride on the tow paths along the canals. It's basically an illegal moped with no tax or fuel costs.. But I agree with the video, stop start riding has big wear on these motors. If you're cruising for miles they're fine. But urban rides I'd like a mid drive in future. Awesome video. A lot of info delivered really well. You got a great talent.
Geared hub, direct drive hub, front or rear drive, mid drive. No one type outdoes all the others. Each is the best at something. So choose what suits the most of your riding.
@@JohnnyNerdOut would you recommend a $10K car to get across a lake instead of a $50 boat, becuse the car is more "smarter technology"? I'll recommend what suits the bikes intended purpose the best, geared hub, direct hub, front or rear hub, or mid drive.
@@spinnanz absolutely. There is just so few scenarios in which I would recommend a hub motor. Maybe for someone just starting out with an E bike and who doesn’t live anywhere near Hills and doesn’t need to go above 15 miles an hour. The hub motor is totally fine for that type of situation.
@@spinnanz That analogy doesn't make sense. A car is never going to be the "smarter technology" for crossing water. You are comparing a car to a boat to do a boat's job. @JohnnyNerdOut is comparing two bikes to do a bikes job. I would recommend a boat with the motor in the back rather than one with the motor in the front. With a boat rear drive is the "smarter technology". I agree with you. It should be up to the rider. If the rider is planning a lot of off-road use a mid drive is better. To begin with the weight is in a better location. If they are planning to use it on street only a hub drive will be fine. So if the rider (buyer) wants a hub drive they will go to a different shop and @JohnnyNerdOut won't have to deal with them if they decide they don't like it. Nothing wrong with that.
All very interesting but it does depend on what you want to get out of your cycling. If you are doing it simple as a way to get from a-b then a powerful mid drive is great. But if you cycle to keep fit, then a smaller hub motor which just assists you on those really steep climbs is much better for you. I have a 350w hub motor, bought from eBay as a kit (which came with everything I needed) and I have set it up as peddle assist only, no throttle, and it is perfect. I sometimes come home with most of the power still in the battery and other days, when I choose a hilly ride, most of the battery is gone.
Hub motors are starting to be more mainstream, and by more mainstream, I mean cheap. Mid drive ebikes off the shelf did command a huge premium just a few years ago, and are only just now becoming comparable in price to hub motor ebikes. If I were to buy another ebike, I would consider mid drive for the points you mentioned. One thing that bothers me about this comparison is that the example videos you showed is for motor only, without pedaling. For me ebike is supposed to supplement my energy input, not replace it all together. I never coast just because I have an electric bike.
Just picked up my brand spanker 750W Dual Motor E-Bike and it's out of this world AMAZING, very strong torque, example climbed up a 25% gradient hill which approximately 1/4 mile climb , and at a consistent speed of 29 miles an hour , at last I've found an E-Bike that I'm happy with the overall performance!! Love your channel buddy, you are amazing !!
I have the hub drive and really enjoy it. When I priced out the hub drive, which came with the complete wheel, battery with built in controller and a display screen, The cost was half the price. check into the Dillenger off road deluxe kit.
From the start I've always like Mid drive over Hub drive. The reason for this was that if you damage your wheels you can always get better wheels and even run a different size like from 29er to 27.5 without really worrying about the drive. But with a hub drive you have to really get the motor or wheel repaired and that takes time and money. And deep down will you be happy with that large lump of metal in the middle of your wheel? That's why a lot of proper mtb's use mid drive over hub drive. And it's more of the balance of the bike. Better to have the motor in the middle and low down then to have it in the wheel. But yeah it's true what you said about the spokes it kinda makes sense now. I think hub drive is only good if you live in a country that is flat without any hills like Holland where is pretty flat. But for me I would still run a mid drive any day. I have my eye on a Nukeproof Megawatt just waiting for it to drop in price because right now you can buy a car for less.
Wel as a Dutch person I can tell you e-bikes with hub motors are almost gone by now. When e-bikes where a new think most had hub motors. But most new e-bikes have mid drive motors.
@@difflocktwo for commuting ok if you dont have long steep hills to climb but if you need to do that dont get a hub drive one just dont. for e mountainbiking hubs are crap aswell due to way to crap weight balance. central weight balance is better. mid drives are just more flexible in terms of gear ratios. but they do wear the drivetrain more compared to hubs
@@SimonBauer7 We need to consider system costs and expected loads. I would say for a given cost you can always build a faster, more practical, hub drive bike. Maybe there are very specific conditions where a hub might cost more to keep up with the mid drive. Building a mid drive as low maintenance as a hub is also going to add a lot of cost.
@@difflocktwo in terms of pure cost yes you are probably right but it really depends on the usecase. for me a hub would be garbo as i do emtb tech climb where weight balance/gear choice is important. by having a motor in one fixed gear ratio you are either loosing the low end torque or the top speed. shure if you had 2000w+ you could bruteforce that but i am talking about a normal 250w nom/4-600w peak one here and in this power range a hub just isnt for me.
I'm 68 and have a mid drive. I find this keeps me fit as I can still use the gears like an ordinary bike and sometimes rarely use the pedal assist, but it's there as and when needed. I've been riding bikes for over 60 years and tried just about every bike there is (including a Penny Farthing) and the mid drive is probably the best ever. I realise that not everybody is bothered about fitness but the older you get the more important it is.
@Mal S we have one of each in our house and I much prefer my hub drive bike to my husband's mid drive. We tried over twenty ebikes before we purchased and bought the ones we liked the best. For me the mid drive bikes weren't more pleasurable.
I have had 3 mid drives and now have 4 hub drives ( I have built all of these) and I can tell you this opinion is somewhat misleading. All 3 of my mid drives failed; 2 mechanically and 1 controller. I then had huge issue on parts supply to try to fix these. I have done 28,000 miles on the hubs in the last 18 months with no issues whatsoever. Yes watch your spoke tension but after a number of tension adjustments this issue almost never surfaces again as the spokes then "settle". If you use your bike for transport (not off road as the rear axle weight is too great with the hub) then the hub motor is the Best choice. And if there was ever a major issue just buy another hub motor wheel for $200 and install. Saves all the expense of going to a bike shop too.
Thanks for the insight. Curious, what kind of mid drive did you have that failed? I personally like the performance that mid drives offer. But it is an opinion piece :)
@@JohnnyNerdOut I had 2 Aprilla ebikes with mid drive that failed but the motor was branded under their name. Also the two different hub motors; gear driven hub and direct drive. Gear driven hubs are renowned for issues ( I had 2 fail) but not direct drive. I have never even heard of a Hall sensor failure in a direct drive but have heard of a controller failure but again these are cheap and easy to replace.
Bafang geared hub magnet glue had to be fixed. My other Direct Drive hub was fried making the mistake of WOT up Waterton. Bought the internal controller DD Magic Pie and holy crap that thing is a rocket once unlocked. Internal controller makes for a clean look. We will see if I have any issues with heat. I just received a Bafang ultra, which I've heard can eat chains if proper riding isn't followed. I can understand why many prefer the cheaper hub.
I chose hub drive as I hate chain drive! If I had a belt drive then I be more for it. Also cars as an analogy would have to include another motor cuz that is how you make a hub last longer is to help it take off and climb steep hills by pedaling.
The gaa engine analogy is poor anyway. It omits the fact that any electric motor has full torque at 0 rpm. Gas engines have to have a gear box due to their power curve. I
I've got two bbshd 58v I built, one on a giant anthem 2 and one on a commencal meta hardtail. Love em, maintain them, 5000+miles no failures. Set up the hall sensor on left brake that acts like a clutch so your not applying power during shifts, shimano 11sp will last indefinitely if you change the chain at or before 0.75%stretch.
@@michaelbrownlee9497 Nope. A guy I know who has been selling ebikes for years says that he doesn't even look at watts. Different engines and drive systems have different efficiencies.
@@michaelbrownlee9497 wattage of an electric motor refers to the current the motor draws (wattage/voltage=current in amps) either at peak or sustained, not how much useful work you get in exchange. A mid drive is in the 90% efficiency. A good high end hub can get up in that range too! But most of them are in low-mid 80%, worse if they have a controller out of a crackerjack box. to add to sfdint's comparison, I'd wager his Bosh could out-accelerate a PK80/BT80 2-stroke, and that's 2,500 watts. Eventually the higher wattage will win on flat ground, but torque (affecting acceleration and climbing power) rules until you're actually up to speed.
@@michaelbrownlee9497 not necessarily. Wattage is still useful (of two motors with the same wattage and efficiency, the one with higher voltage uses lower current).but current and efficiency become particularly important at the lower end of the power spectrum, thus cheaper hub motors.
I have been pondering dual hub + mid drive on a stretch cruiser frame I bartered for. It can accept 26" x 4.0 wheels, I haven't messured the drop outs since I got it back in November but iirc the rear was 190mm. I will be building the bike for comfort and long distance trips. I have seen some people with the same battery pack getting more range when they went dual hub motors, so I hope you got your dual hub vs mid drive video done : )
@@sittingduckass3676 Wow, Military-grade AWD elec dirtbikes for stealth recon...My new T42 is a 750/1100w Lectric style folder. Plan is to use it up, adding a front hub and mid-drive after the rear hub dies.
I've also been professionally building bike wheels 35+ years. Point one, the power of the motor goes thru the spokes regardless of whether the motor is the hub, or the motor drives the hub (mid-drive). So the spoke problems must come from a different factor.....how about the fact the hub is so much larger, so you have shorter spokes, and then the angle of spoke entry to the rim is greater. Or if it's not greater, then it's only cross 1 pattern which is less rigid, and there's the problem. Regardless, you get spoke problems, unless built with heavier spokes, but the fact remains ALL THE POWER GOES THRU THE SPOKES IN BOTH INSTANCES. The only way out of that is friction drive on the tyre, like the Sinclair ZETA or Velosolex. Cheers.
I watched your intro video and loved it. I felt like I now have a friend that is a e-bike pro! I had a bunch of questions and found that you have a ton of videos already posted that answer most of my questions. Now I just need to make the time to watch all of them. Thanks and keep up the great work!
I love my hub motor. So far (1,300 miles) it's been bullet proof and I would buy it again. It's funny to compare it to the engine on a car since we are talking about electric motors😂. How many "speeds" do electric cars have? Pretty sure just one. I've only used one mid-drive but I wasn't impressed. My Chinese eBay kit was $190(no battery) and is still going strong.
I love my rear wheel drive ebike and have not had any of the problems mentioned. I am 300 pounds, ride up hills just about every time I go out and have over 2500 miles on the bike. It has enriched my life! I always peddle as exercise is part of the reason I bought an ebike. If you find your mobility challenged but still have your balance…get an ebike!
If they are going through drivetrains they should be educated how to properly ride. Many new riders are not aware of when to shift and that can put a lot of stress on the drivetrain. Although that might hurt your business it sounds like😐
Nice video, in general I am more a fan of mid drives too, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the hub drive's regenerative ability; something a mid drive can't be set up for.
Only direct drive hub motors can support regen which makes up almost less than 1% of hub motor bikes. There is not enough inertia n a bike to make it worth the extra cost imo.
@@JohnnyNerdOut Yeppers - none what-so-ever. Mid-Drive is the future. All the other offerings - hub drives - are just managers trying to liquidate their assets ASAP.
I have two hub motor bikes and haven’t had any of the problem he’s describing. My oldest ebike is about 5 years old. The biggest problem I had with it is cross win. The bike pickup a lot of cross win due to the battery housing. As you will guess, the battery is internal. Not sure why his bike couldn’t go up that little 350W motor never fail on any hill using peddle assist. The number one thing I thought he would talk about is weight distribution where mid-drive wins hands down.
if you enjoy pedaling like me (exercise) get mid drive, if you just want to move from point a to b, then get a hub motor. I tried both and I can't imagine myself riding on a hub drive ever again.
I don't agree with you saying "Hub Motors suck". I do agree with saying that Mid Drives are better. You have definitely convinced me of that. I enjoyed riding my single speed bike that was converted to an electric bike before it was damaged by the rain due to the controller box that like you said you have to mount somewhere on the bike and make it look nice. You got a subscriber out of me. I am very interested in electric bike conversion and you definitely know what you're talking about.
Thank you for this succint but detailed breakdown of the differences between the two. I think I was leaning toward a hub only for the sake of a more convenient installation. But understanding the (now) obvious performance of a drivetrain versus a wheel in terms of torque I have no doubt about mid drive. This is an older video but I am curious which motor would be geared the best for a utility bike that is used towing a trailer and hill climbs, sometimes both. I was planning to add a e-bike drivetrain sooner but as I rode more I got in shape I find I dont need it as much as I needed to get in shape but it would be nice having assist in the hilly terrain I explore on bike camp trips with a small trailer for gear/surfboard.
In a very glad that there are people like you that take the time to put out valuable information because when I bought my bike I shopped for months before settling on the all-wheel drive one that I did but please keep making more videos they're very well done and well thought out
You saved me from making a mistake. I have had a mid drive for 4 years and its been excellent. Recently I snapped the chain on it (after 2 years of use). That 10km walk home made me decide to buy a hub motor (I havent bought it yet). Listening to you has convinced me to not do this, and as you suggested, just carry a spare chain with me. Thanks for your video. Oh and yes the Bafang mid drives are pretty durable. Mine has been fine and required almost no maintenance.
And if you don't want to carry a spare chain around, take a small chain tool and shorten the chain by a link (providing it's a geared bike). You may not be able to use the highest gear, but it will get you home.
What I like most about the mid drive is the center of gravity is kept at the center of the bike and down low. It handles more like a sports car. Hubs are heavier and carry that weight higher at the back of the bike. It's just not ideal for handling.
Thanks for the best video I've seen online on both types of motors. I was going to purchase the Willier Filante Hybrid road bike with a rear hub motor but decided my need for a touring bike made me rethink my purchase. I decided to go with the Specialized 2024 Creo 2 road bike with a mid drive motor with touring attatchement points for racks and panniers. The price point was slightly less for a bike that meets my two needs. I've done over 100.000kms over the last twenty years on my own power but time to take some of the stress off my body to enjoy the ride with more ease being a woman in her sixties. Trying to convince my partner to upgrade our co-motion tandem to make riding easier but he's not there yet! Lol 😊
@@Another-Address - Pedal assist is not the same on cheap bikes, it's more of a 'pedal switch'. It doesn't respond to torque, it just decides that you're pedaling based on the magnets passing the sensor and turns the motor on, then turns it off when you stop pedaling for a few seconds. It's much better for me to use the throttle and assist it with pedaling. So I guess it's more of a 'motor assist' as I'm helping the motor by pedaling, rather than the other way around.
My first E- Bikes in 2011 where E-Motto rear hub drive. I never had any problems as long as 24 volt 10 AH battery was charged up. If battery died hub motor never really dis-engaged making bicycle very hard to peddle. I just purchased Gazelle mid-drive motors . What a difference in performance.👍
one of the problems is, you can get really good hub motors at the cheap end. A 250w voilamart and a 250w swytch/bafang hub drive perform pretty much the same. Cheap mid-drives on the other hand are pretty rubbish - you are basically just buying a container of factory smoke. Pretty much everyone who sings the praise of mid-drives rides bafang as cheap mid-drives just turn your bike into a bomb.
@@Debbiebabe69 I did not regret at all going BBS-HD. Use a good wax-based lube, and a KMC e-bike chain, as well as the Luna 42 tooth chainring. The lube has ~ 8 to 12 oz heavy gear oil (superlube ISO 680) per pound of wax, 5 to 7 parts paraffin to one part each of beeswax and sticky microcrystalline waxes. I was cooking the chain every 75 to 100 miles, using an old crock pot. Chain wear was less than .5 on the Park tools “ruler” after over 1000 miles. The chain will need cleaning in kerosene prior to rewaxing. I did regret not getting a stouter chain when some wretch came along with bolt-cutters...
@@dennisyoung4631 Used to be a cycle courier in London the number of times I found couriers having their bike stolen or some other a-hole courier putting glue or matches in people's locks there wasn't a lock that they couldn't cut or break open somehow. I even brought a lock that came with a year's worth of free insurance after needing to claim on it for the 3rd time they refused to insure my bike ever again. twice was when it was stolen and the 3rd time was when someone stuck glue and sticks in the lock they sent someone out to remove the chain it took over an hour so god knows how these people can steal bits in under 3 minutes with a good chain but they do. the biggest joke is finding your bike has gone and a note telling you how much they want to give it back because they know you have no bike you have no income and by the time you claim your insurance you could be out of work for 4 weeks. they only do that with cheaper bikes normally as your likely not to be insured. and the bike not worth much selling it.
So YOU chose one with crap build quality. This video talks about individual company issues nothing to do with the technology like he tries to make out. By a target bike and you will easily buckle the rear wheel.but that doesnt mean the standard technology of bike wheels has a huge issue.
Thank you so much for sharing that, you just made my decision for me Very informative I loved how you explain the mechanics of both choices by far the most intelligent explanationThank you.
Thank You Jonnynerdout !!! I am a 69 year old lifelong garage nerd. I have recently become fascinated by ebikes. Yours is a educated hub motor middrive comparison. Thanks. Subscribed.
4:20 This is known as locked rotor amps and duty cycle for industrial motors . . . Some motors can easily withstand this type of punishment . . . but they are usually rare and very expensive ! ! ! E-bike Mfg. could certainly benefit if they were to use the same standards that are applied to industrial motors . . . 5:55 Seems like we spoke too soon . . . More torque equals more broken parts . . . This is easy to demonstrate with a TORQUE wrench . . .
I appreciate the knowledge and advice very much thanks. I think I might have to save up more for middrive Just some clarification please, when you talk about hub drive being single geared, but they actually have various levels of electric assist, or "power levels" generally from 1 to 3 or 1 to 5 where higher level = more power. Eg you could use level 1 as eco mode for longer journey but switch to 3 on a hill climb for more help. In the side by side comparison the middrive bike, the guy wasn't pedalling. Can you throttle only with that motor? I mean if your chain isn't broke. Sometimes it's fun to just cruise like that
It's a difference of where the motor is located in the powertrain. Two motors with otherwise equivalent outputs and speeds, one direct drive, and one with a multi ratio transmission between it and the load, the one with the transmission can produce both a wider range of usable speeds and power levels.
I have two bikes right now, one with a Bafang Ultra and the other a Bafang 1,000 watt hub motor. Since I just like to use throttle, the hub drive is more pleasant to ride...
@@dhincks1 Me too, I've always had motorcycles but it's not the same, with the Ultra seems like I'm always babying it so as not to destroy the drivetrain and having to run through the gears from off the line isn't fun, more of a drag for me but that's coming from someone that has both types of motors...
@@Fellafoe69 Na, since I can't turn peddles I ride my Bafang Ultra throttle-only in 3rd gear, that's still a hell of a ride especially off the line. Worried about how much I would lose if my bike got stolen so easily otherwise a simple step-up would be a Wattwagons modded Ultra motor at 2,300 watts but I'm a slow smell the roses and enjoy the scenery rider... 😆
@@Fellafoe69 My Ultra is a 9-speed, most of the gears on it are useless, only really need a few with that motor I live on a mountain and first and second on my bike are useless...
I agree 100% I did my wife's mountain bike and mine we both have front and rear suspension and tons of power I had to go to a 38 front tooth drive gear because the 44 was waaaay to fast, with my 38 I still get 44 Km on gravel road. but climb!!! OMG , gear down and crank the power up to 5 or 6 and you can climb walls. Forget the Hub drive nonsense. My kit was a BFANG everything was supplied . Love it. I did both bikes with a 11AMhr batt for $1500 CND $ 750 WATT.
Having been on endless sphere for a long time, I can say that regardless of what motor setup you use, you will have problems regardless, what setup will depend on your environment. But a lot of what you are saying in this video is out of context or far too generalised to be applicable in reality. No setup is better than the other in general. Cost and reliability for on road use and light off road use, hub drive all the way. Heavy off road, get a mid drive and only a proper mid drive like bosch or possibly bafang or if you know what your doing, then do a proper professional build yourself. In my experience, running a QS205 at 22kw with cooling mods, decimates everything on road it comes into contact with under acceleration and especially at top end. It has no problems climbing hills and in 20k miles I have not ONCE! had to maintain it apart from occasionally check the spokes for tightness which is standard practice. If you have a MC chain and large rear sprocket you can run the same power reliably on mid drive also and it would probably accelerate better, but it would look like a motor bike and be more expensive and more complicated to build and get rite. Hub drives haven't reached there peak yet though, when axial flux hub motors become common place there will be a large shift in performance of hub motors.
@Jinx Powder yeah that's the input power at least anyway haha. There's a chunk of voltage sag on full throttle so It realistically is more like 18 kw output.
I like the new stile mid drive with the belt drive combined with the internally geared hub. Right now they're stupid expensive, but much better design.
@@SocalSamStokes yeah you like it? I heard one guy once complain about the hub's blowing from the torque of a thousand watt mid Drive, but I've only heard it once.
I have both a hub drive ebike and a mid drive ebike. Both are 52V and both are 1000W. The mid drive controller program has been personalized. The mid drive feels more natural and has more torque in the mid range. The mid is way faster also. IMO if you compare the two at the same amperage and wattage, the mid drive is the performance king. Application is everything, including the factors that make the choice. So either way you go, you are going! Ebikes are amazing and both of my ebikes are fun to ride.
@@JohnnyNerdOut well it depends on if you want your bicycle to accelerate from foot pressure or from spinning the pedals like a guinea pig with no pressure, thats the difference of torque sensor and cadence sensor, thats why a cadence sensor is $10 and a torque sensor setup cost more than the motors you sell...
@@midnight4109 Most mid-drives can't accommodate a belt and an IGH that can handle the full torque of a good mid-drive is as rare as hen's teeth and consequently expensive. I have yet to see a belt & IGH combination on anything more than 800 watts but the industry usually use them only for bikes under 500 watts.
@@sammiller6631 I'm not sure. There's no reason it shouldn't work but I don't think anyone is making carbon fiber belt chain ring adapters for DIY mid-drives (YET). Since there are belt driven mid-drives on the pre-fab market it's only a matter of time though. I' personally wouldn't run an IGH on anything over 750 watts. An IGH creates a better chain line but is not intended to run so much power and is difficult & expensive to repair compared to freewheels or cassettes.
I just installed a 350 watt (36v, 13 Amp battery) hub drive on my Milwaukee gravel bike and the hill performance is astounding. On paved roads it levels hills nicely, feels like a tailwind, and on the roughest, steep gravel it gives me confidence I didn't have before. Can't think of anything worse than spinning-out or stalling on a steep gravel hill. The bicycle is equipped with a 10-speed 11-32 cassette with a 26/39 crankset, as long as there's traction, never had a problem in the machine's 18,300 kilometers on the dirt but the e-hub contributes greatly.
I completely disagree on your view my hub drive is extremely good on low and high torque it's not hard to upgrade the spokes and just run a check list every other ride also I comfortably do 37mph with a top of 41mph using a hub with a mid drive you have to peddle hub drive it's throttle and go a mid drive is so much harder on your entire frame and it's not way more fun I can promise you that
46amp? That’s a lot! 58x 46= 2,668 watts. Something with that kind of power will definitely be good at hill climbing and top speed! This vid was mainly to show the performance difference between 750w street legal versions of both motors. I have zero issues with hub motors performance when they start to creep to 2,000 watts and above. Ride on brother!
@@JohnnyNerdOut will do and you the same sorry about my blunt type of aproch in the matter and if looking at it compared to what I ride and what you've explained in the video it's two totally different animals and my bike isn't exactly legal in the slightest
I did a mid-drive conversion on my bike, but I think it depends on the starting point. I recently advised someone that they should do a front hub on their bike, as they had a chain guard, an normal front wheel and they they would be towing a kid behind and have a child seat on the back. They said they did not live in a hilly area. Most ppl I know with front hub conversions are happy with them. Brompton use them. Horses for courses.
I am so glad I have a hub motor, was approx 10 miles from home on my last ride out and my chain snapped and was not able to repair it there and then but still got home using the hub motor. would have this been possible with a mid drive motor ?
Tesla’s don’t use hub motors! They use the same principle motor though. A single speed fed through a gear reduction.
Also. Hub motors don’t cause loose spokes. But cheap, poorly made ones do😀
Hub motors still suck 🙌
LOL. I agree
mid drives are trash. know why? dual 5kw hub motors
Hub motors in bike are not well designed. Although a hub motor behaves like a single gear motor, the motor can have high torgue at low speed by supplying huge current like Tesla motors.
The reason why it is not done, is due to poor cooling. Hubsink solves some of it.
At high speed, in tge end, hub motors will win because of its size. Bigger size means it can handle more speed, so use a larger voltage. Geared motors do not need high voltage batteries and controllers because the gears make the motors behave like it operates at high voltage. Or high currents, at low gears.
So, according to Physics, no different between motors, but because hub motor by itself is bigger, ultimately, you can operate it at higher powers.
One advantage that the lossy geared motor cannot have over hub motor, is the silence. So silent in operation, meaning, it saves energy in the end.
Electric motors don't need multi-speed transmissions unless they are way under-powered. Think Tesla, not a POS unreliable Bafang mid-drive and its crap performance. Also, no crappy little geared hubmotors either if you want reliability. Who wants all that noise anyway?
The bottom line is that for riding on relatively smooth paved surfaces direct drive hubmotors are best with the only exception being that you need to regularly carry your ebike (like up stairs). Nothing beats the silence, absolute reliability, or performance (all of my ebikes would laugh at your Bafang mid-drive.
For off road riding hubmotors increase the rear wheel unsprung weight too much to be effective except in the lightest trail use.
Good video, but have to call bs regarding the torque and resulting load on spokes. It doesn't matter whether the torque is produced at the hub, or from a midmount via the chain, the loading on the spokes is the same. In your example with a midmount producing up to double the torque you would expect up to double the loading, and therefore double the wear and tear on your spokes.
Speaking as a 62 year old disabled person If anyone out there is confused or undecided on which configuration ebike to get I say any ebike configuration is better than riding a non ebike, don't fear jump in. I spent too much time trying to decide on the perfect one for me. I ended up buying a used one for a great price that doesn't meet the standards that I want in any way. The quality of my life has improved 100% by the mobility I now enjoy. I'm going to upgrade to a better ebike but in the meantime life is good. 😊
Thanks! 66 and doing too much research. Need to jump in like you say. 😊
Thank you! 65 and looking for an E-trike (some balance issues starting). It limits my choices, but I am just looking for some exercise, not trail riding.
@@golflre7179 Very cool, thanks
I am 69 and can’t walk a 100 feet without back spasms. I got a generic fat tire low slung ebike a few years ago and now have over 2500 miles on it! I have explored hundreds of miles of bike trails along ocean, lake and River fronts. I am 300 pounds and have powered up plenty of hills. I like to get some exercise so I always peddle. I get my ebike tuned up every spring and I have never had any of these problems. If my motor were to go out, I can go to Amazon or any number of on line shops and buy a Bafang motor wheel combination much cheaper than a mid motor.
@@jstanovic Cool! I think ebikes are going to become an exercise platform for seniors, as it encourages bike riding.
I have both, practically speaking, I like redundancy with no down time, so my preference is hub. If my hub goes out I can still pedal, if my chain or gearset goes out, I have the hub. Two independent systems working in parallel. In my mid motor, if chain or gears go, I have to stop. Both have pros n cons as your video shows, I just prefer not to stop for my very ordinary rides.
I like hubs motors due to ease of installation.
I have a pretty cheap (but rugged!) ebike with a hub motor as a cargo bike, and I actually had that help me out. Middle of a street and the chain came off my front crank, and even on an uphill I was able to keep enough speed from the hub to pull off to the side.
I have a 50 year old ten speed. Same chain and derailers for 50 years. Hmm...
Lol Clearly leg powered! Unless you're blessed with Hulk legs, that chain ain't goin nowhere! These new motors are so torquey chain snaps unfortunately are becoming commonplace. We just need to prepare so the downtime is less.
@@uncareid5557 old school is the best school. 👍
I've got both. The hubbers only fall short on the steep climbs. That's what the mid drive is for, tough single track. For exploring old tracks in the countryside the hubbers shine. The hubbers can negotiate high grass and overgrowth without getting the drivetrain entangled in grass. Just don't peddle and let the hub motor do the work. That is not possible on a mid drive or regular bike. Other advantages to a hubber is drive train redundancy, twice I've had to peddle and, once after bending the chain ring on a hidden stump at speed, rode out with just the hub motor. Also hubbers are cheap to repair. All in all I agree with Mr. Nerdout that mids out preform hubbers, but that doesn't mean hub motors aren't good. Just because a Ferrari will outpreform a Miata doesn't mean the Miata is no good.
I disagree. Miata’s are dumb.
@@aaronflanagan8983 I doubt you have ever driven a Miata, let alone own one.
@@kevinnielsen1356 Why would I?
@@aaronflanagan8983 In order to become less of a dummie
@@kevinnielsen1356 touché. Oh, wait….
I’ve had both. Although the mid drive does offer more torque via mechanical advantage of the gear system, I got tired of the chain getting whacked off because of the torque. Happy with my hub drive…
Belt drive
@@nicolaihilckmann4677 the source of the power is not the belt. It's belt coupled.. coupled to the motor via the belt. If you wanted to be technical and correct people, then "Controller driven" would have been a better correction on your part.
Have you ever looked at a bike before? The gear system decreases torque/increases speed. If the two different varieties of motor have the same torque output, then the hub motor will have higher torque at the rear wheel.
@@EGL24Xx Pretty sure the mid drive motor have a built in reducing gear, to make up for the decrease of torque to the wheel. So in lower gear, the mid drive definitely have a higher torque.
That doesn't change the fact that hub motor are, overall, better
See below... I believe these ding bats are trying to say... a one to one ratio is the most efficient. If mid drive reduces at the crank to increase at the hub.. it is not more efficient .
Thanks for the info, I’m happy with my folding 500 watt hub, bought it in 19 and have had no problems. I’m retired and use it to cruise around every other day, it’s great against the wind and will go uphill a bit, not like your bike but good enough on the prairies. The one problem I should mention is that in hot weather after a while the thermal switch kicks in and it shuts down. 5 minutes in the shade and it’s ready to go. I’ll try out your recommendation for my next bike.
Maybe you should try doing the heatsink and ferro fluid mod to your hub to keep it cool .
Thanks for the comparison. I've broken a couple of spokes on my $200 ebay 1kw hub motor but it otherwise seems bombproof. I use it solely for commuting and errands but have over 3k miles on my 2nd hand kit, seems very reliable. Not having to pedal is nice when I take it to work so I'm not sweaty, definitely an advantage of the hub motor if that's your use case.
And this is my purpose for getting and shopping around for Ev bike the same Example I just want to do a little commuting and get to work
Good points . I dont know how many miles I put on mine riding it almost every day for years , but I bet way over 15000 miles, Ive worn out more tires than I can rember , I have broken some spokes and each time I replaced with larger dia intill I got the largest the motor can take , problem solved. no more broke or lose spokes !
Mid drive has throttle only mode.
Hub motors are great. I have a hub drive 750w Himiway Cruiser. I don't need a lot of high end type performance. Im sure that mid drives are great, but that doesn't just simply discount all the benefits of a hub drive system. I weigh 230 lbs and my hub drive zips me up hills in my town no problems. I have almost 450 miles on my ebike and have zero complaints.
Same here. And you pay 1/4 the amount.
I have 2 hub motor bikes, and I am sure I would enjoy the mid drive bikes also, but they were much more expensive. He is only talking about the price here of the motor itself, but for some reason the price of actual pre built bikes seem to be much more expensive for mid drives. You could say that is because the frame has to be more specially made, but many of the hub motor frames now are also special built for the batteries and stuff. ALSO one thing I think a hub motor can do that a mid drive can not do, and correct me if I am wrong, but a hub motor can allow you have a throttle on the bike and not have to peddle at all when using the throttle. I do not use that much, but I love it when you start riding to get going, it makes it easier.
@@jeffdeprey6279 for one thing no stress on the chain or gears, and try getting home on a mid drive when the chain brakes.
@@michaelbarry8373 hub drives about the same price as a mid
@@Crypton_XD Where can you buy a mid drive kit for like 200 bucks. i would be very happy to know. I myself just bought a 200€ hub motor kit and a separate battery for another 200€. The lowest price mid dives i can find are somewhere between 400-500€ and that's way too much for me and they don't even come with a battery.
One kind of related comment: The hub motor shown here has a relatively small diameter, I've used one with a 10" diameter and the torque is enormous because the moment arm is longer. So a better comparison would be between a mid motor and a large hub motor with the same wattage.
That's going to exacerbate the problem of unsprung weight, and it moves it further from the axle.
@@Barnaclebeard Could you elaborate please? What is the "unsprung weight" problem? I'm new to all this.
@@Barnaclebeard I dont see unsprung weight as a major problem. It only matters if your bike has full suspension.
I like hub motor you don’t have to talk to the bank in order to buy an electric bike.
but it is worth it
@@TheFilminators Mid drive costs more and doesn't have regen. No thanks.
@@difflocktwo in the ebike world, more money spent normally means more power and more performance, assuming you know what you're doing. And how much does regen help you anyway?
I was just joking but its definitely something to think about
@@TheFilminators Regen helps a lot. Otherwise I'm changing brake pads all the time (bicycle brake pads are small). With Regen I don't use my pad brakes 90% + of the time and regen doesn't care about water/mud/ice. Pads last years instead of months with regen.
Hub motors are so much cheaper that you can spend the price difference on a bigger battery.
@@difflocktwo depends on what you are looking for too. I'm more of a hill climber so I prefer motors with more torque so I prefer a mid drive.
I live in Europe and here, things are a bit more complicated. If you want to buy a new bike with a mid drive, you will pay a lot more, than with a hub drive. I drive both and for me, it's more a question of the riding style. I totally agree with you on the fact, that a mid drive is more natural, like a normal bike. I have a Bosch on my Cube, and yes it's really good. On the other side I have a totally cheap trekking bike with a 250W hub motor, just a cadence sensor, no throttle as it isn't allowed here, and I love it too.
As much as I love the Bosch, it is to loud and at 25km/h I get stuck in a to slow or fast gear. Thats frustrating and I don't get a Deore 10 speed cassette with a better ratio to fix that problem. Thats an unknown problem with my hubmotor, as it feels like you just riding a wave. I really love high cadences, and for that, a hub motor is the best, in my opinion. All mid drive motors I've tested, are getting very loud once get over 90 crank revolutions. When you hit 100 and more, you just have to love the sound of motors. My hub motor is just quit. I will never get up mountains with it, but if you live in a flat area I think, the hub motor is a very nice option.
And another thing, my Bosch bike needed a fresh wear set after 4000km, my trekkingbike with the hub motor is on it's first wear set without any problems after 12.000km.
So when someone ask me, what should I get, I wouldn't just say mid drive as I think hub motors can be very very nice.
Ya, both BOSCH and Shimano STEPS are overly expensive for what you get. They use to be the only option for mid-drive with torque sensing, but now there are numerous options on the market.
Throttle is allowed in uk but its only a thumb type
I found hubs are loud but my bbshd is abit less.
What country r u r In?
@@martinmb6067 Germany
the price is the real diferance i use hub every time 1500-5000w i love it
"every time"? how often do you replace your hub motor?
@@williamedwards6519 You guys are trying so hard to talk shit about hub motors, but I bought 1 hub motor 4 y ears ago. I run it at 750w, 1000w sometimes (I have a switch I flip for 1000w) and I have put probably 1000+ miles on it. Hub motors don't burn out. If they do somehow burn out, they must be using some really old ESC or something because mine cuts out if the bike doesn't move (if I try to start it on a steep hill or like if the front wheel is against the wall or something). I think the guy who made this video and many in the comments should take apart a hub motor and look at it because it doesn't work how you guys think.
@@waynefilkins8394 Ive have know idea how this burnt out hub motor story ever got legs.
@@waynefilkins8394 well said. This fella doesn't know what he's talking about, or he has an agenda.
@@waynefilkins8394 The guy is comparing low end, low power bike setups. Obviously a 250W mid drive will outperform a 250W hub motor. But hub motors shine if you do long range or high power cruising, or you have a throttle, since hubs are so much smoother to use with a throttle than mid drives.
I agree that mid drives are better but the thing you said about the spokes is true for a mid drive as well. When you peddle your bike on a mid drive the power will end up at your back wheel and if it making more power it should be harder on your spokes on that wheel.
No not any more than a regular bike. It's sending power to the cassette first. Hub motor is literally sending it to the... hub
You’re right, in both cases, all the torque is transferred through the spokes. The video clip comparing mid and hub motor seems bogus to me. How can the pedals be stationary on the mid motor when powering up the hill? The cranks are connected to the main sprocket which is providing the motive power to the back wheel. Can someone explain?
a mid drive has a second freewheel in the motor, you can spin the motor independent of the cranks.@@kevinmills5293
@@kevinmills5293 The mid-drive can drive the chain round via a throttle, even if the rider is free-wheeling.
I don't know if you can see the chain still turning in this video, but that's the real difference. Mid-drive uses the chain and gears, hub goes directly to the wheel.
While it's true that mid-drive is more mechanically efficient, it also wears the chain more, and you have to work your gears. With hub-drive and a throttle you can use the motor to go from a standstill to cruising speed regardless of whether you forgot to change gear when slowing down.
Hub is easier for the user, but mid drive uses the power you apply more efficiently. With a mid-drive if your chain breaks or falls off you're stuck until you fix it.
Both mid-drive Motors and hub Motors transmit all the power to the tire through the spokes. And in fact if the mid Drive motor is more powerful and allows you to accelerate harder than the hub Drive motor it would be harder on the spokes then would be the Hub Drive motor which is weaker.
no the hub motor introduces different vectors as well because it is heavy
@@Matt-og5kd weight is irrelevant as any weight on the bike is on the wheel core equally the same. i could say it is probably the vibrations caused directly from the motor if spokes getting loose is true at all..
The weight does matter in that it will resist changes in velocity like a flywheel…. But that is pretty much errelivant to the spokes themselves…. This conversation is sort of errelevant too the original comment I feel is correct the forces on the spokes remain pretty much the same….
Huh drive motors are not “weaker” very difficult to find a hub drive motor over 1000watts
@@attackscorpion5323 you are in the wrong thread nobody is talking about that
Other thing to keep in mind on a bike with rear suspensions is that a hub motor is adding unsprung mass.
What does that mean
@@johnmccatherin5892 With any suspension system, mass on the wheel-side and not the chassis-side is unsprung. On a car for instance this is the wheel, wheel carrier, wheel hub/bearing, brake rotor, and brake caliper. Unsprung mass is bad since it is quite literally mass that vibrates without being damped by the suspension.
@@henryatkinson1479 ahhha interesting
I converted my Santa Cruz blur to a bafang mid drive over a year ago. It's brilliant so much power. I love it off road. Recently I added a boxer tripple crown fork (2nd hand) and a dropper seat post. Pavement road riding 35+ miles. Dirt steep hills and canyons 20+. 500 watt battery. Cheers from California
I’ve had both a hub and mid drive@ Specialized Vado and a Rad Rover, much prefer the hub motor on the Rad. Just my opinion. Haven’t had any problems with my hub drive, but plenty of issues and expensive problems with the mid drive. I also like how the hub drive feels over the mid drive.
JohnnyNerd, I did it. I successfully converted my hub motor ebike to the Bafang mid-motor and WOW, what a difference. Smoother ride, better acceleration, more power, and quieter. Thanks for your advice and videos. I will be upgrading my wife's bike next.
Yo is mid motor faster and has a better battery ????? Which is the best motor you can get from a conversion
@@ltpltp323 I have the Bafang 500 watt. I'm getting about 20% less battery life over the 350 watt hub motor I replaced. Faster (up to 28mph), much smoother, more power on hills, big upgrade from Hub motor. (I carry a spare battery on the bike)
How the hell is it quieter? You must have had a terrible hub setup before then. Guessing the cheapest Chinese kit with a square wave controller
Thanks for your comment, very helpful to my upgrade decisions.
Firstly congrats.
You replaced a 350 watt cheap with a 500 watt middrive & guess what, it's faster & pulls better. That you have to carry a spare battery for a 350-500 watt kit seems a bit strange, I first had a 13 ah battery for a 1500 w hub, depending on how much I pedaled I could get 48-50 miles before the battery died, I now use a 17ah battery on a 1500w hub & get over 60 miles range comfortably, what batteries are you using?
I will keep my hub. I'm very happy with it.
👍
@Mal S I agree. But, I bought 2 ebikes hub motors for the price of one mid drive ebike . One for me and one for my wife. And, I use my wife's bike battery if I want extra range. My two batteries together I have way more range than any mid drive motor ebike for the price of my two e-bikes. If money is not a problem, yes mid drive motor is better, but I don't think is worth it, if you are tight in money, hub motor is a better.
Good on ya.
There's that one company that has a fold out, free delivery, comes assembled. Has a GIGANTIC following with many many RUclips independent video creators, going over the "issues' after a couple years of hard use. Yeah it's a hub motor bike that receives alot of praise.
Ordered one 2 weeks ago can't wait.
Chains DO break!! And when you break a chain and you are 35 miles from home in the countryside with no towns or no one to help you, are you going to want a mid drive or Hub motor in that point in time??? Ask me how I know!!! They have motor will still get you home and I will from now on stick with my Hub Motors thank you very much!
The best thing about hubs is to put one on the front also and have AWD lol.
People just learning about e-bikes should take note of your advice.
Back in 2015, when I got interested in e-bikes, it took months of research to learn what you just covered in under 12 minutes.
Well done!
Thanks 🙏
I can relate, did the same in 2015 and gave up to build a few 80cc gas bikes that all ended up needing loads of maintenance. Fun, sure but electric just was out of reach till 2020 for me.
@@JasonStPierre I love electric but I'm sure you learned loads of valuable maintenance skills and had a ball. Probably made you appreciate electric motors more than most riders too.
There is a lot that isn't covered. This you will find out after you have built and ridden a few of them.
@@grantadamson3478 I know. Afterwards I realized how much I left out. I think a part 2 is in order😀 mainly I can’t believe how I left out how much of a pain the butt it can be to change your tire with a hub in it and how most bike shops won’t touch it if it’s a hub motor. As soon as I get time I’ll make a follow up 😀
Thank you ! I searched for weeks to find info on electric bikes . Today I use a standard pedal , it's great exe4cise BUT...I am 86 yr old ...hope to be around another 14 years.
I enjoy my hub motor conversion . In Australia we can only legally have 250w motors anyway . Yes you get more power from a mid drive but also more drive train wear which you didn't mention . My spokes have never been loose yet and it's easy to keep a eye on them and adjust them if needed . Hub motors are a lot cheaper to buy and less maintenance so it's hubs for me :-)
Yup this, I chose a hub because of less maintenance and less chain wear. It only goes up to 25km/h so it does not matter how much more powerful a mid-drive is
if yoj are climbing insane climbs say goodbye to your hub motor on the middrive you can use the gears of the bike to have more climbing power. i guess if you live in a rather flat are you arent going to need a middrive but if you are climbing insane hills middrive is for you
On road i do climb big hills with my hub drive , i use the throttle when pedaling and go up with ease . Iv'e seen teeth ripped off gears and chains break with mid drives . Hub drives still get you home if you break a chain etc . For me personally hub drives are better , i'm 68 and ride 30/40 kilometers distance sometimes which i wouldn't do if i had a normal bike so good exercise for me :-)
Restrictions you have to contend with are ridiculous and government overstepping it's bounds. I'm glad the US decided 750 is our limit.
@@stoutdog56 yup. The New World Order fascist government interventions must end the easy way or the hard way, up to all the Karen & Brandon sheep how they wanna receive their beating.
I wanted to get an e-bike kit for some time but I couldn’t decide whether to get a hub or mid drive but your video convinced me to get a mid drive so yesterday I ordered a Bafang 750W BBS02B mid drive kit. Thanks.
Great video on the comparison. I have both, a 750W hub and a 1000W BBSHD. Been riding my hub drive bike for like 7 months and yesterday was my first time riding my bike with the BBSHD and the difference in power is night and day. Torque, speed and the quiet motor on the mid drive is super nice.
I know it’s crazy when people say hubs are better. I don’t get it.
I have both too.. each has it's place but the mid drive is like ten times more efficient and powerful.. just learn to pull the break lever slighly between shifts to save wear on your chain drive.
@@Billbobaker Bafang has an optional gear shift sensor.
You can't really compare your motor's unless your less powerful motor was mid drive. But it is only common sense that a mid drive motor with gears would be better at hill climbing and range and speed
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 yes and they recommend it but I find just touching the brakes slightly works fine. It suspends the power for a moment.
I have both drive types and I had the hub first since it is cheaper. My first bike $800 amazon, second $2100 from China direct. The later bike has a 1000w Bafang mid drive. The ability to use the assist up hill is cool, but the 7 gears are not always easy to use. The difference between driving stick and manual, you have to think, and not always when it is convenient. You have to shift ahead of hills or you end up power skipping the chain with the motor assist. For my $2100 bike it only uses gear 1 to climb any significant hill. I tried gear 2 and it skips like crazy in any assist level. My 7 only works on a perfectly flat road or down hill, or it will skip with assist even in assist level 1. 6 is my go to cruise speed. I work through 3, 4, and 5, often. I been riding both bikes to the battery is out lately. I park one and hope on the other. The top speeds and average speed is not that different. The key difference to top speed is how full the battery is. When it gets low it gets much slower. When either bike is full I hit 20pmh easy. I think that is funny since the cheaper bike has the 500w hub motor. The hub motor bike I leave in the mid range of gears most the time and forget it unless necessary in the moment. Now for the steepest hills, mid-drive wins, being in gear 1 with power assist 5 is a dream, as it mitigates the down side of the granny gear, the infinite crank turns it normal takes to get to the top, can be streamlined by the motor. I hope it is easy to upgrade and replace the sprockets on my mid drive bike. It will surely destroy chains and the gears faster with the motor torqueing the drive train. So my conclusion is the increase in money had some rewards but not necessary enough to justify the cost increase. Both ways have pros and cons that any buyer should understand. For a budget friendly entry into ebikes. I recommend the hub as it is much cheaper. A lot of people I know do not use the bikes as much as the imagine any how. The thrill of the motor assist bike can be had on either. At least hub motors chain won't suck your pants in!
Hey, modearnity : T
That was a lot to read to understand your point.
Here is the issue I just wrote about - What are your thoughts on converting to a 3-sp IGH rear drive?
Hey Johnny, thank you for the video! Lots of good points here. I've got a mechanical engineering degree and run an ebike shop that exclusively uses hub motors, so I have a different perspective (obviously!). I think you're mostly incorrect and I'll start with 3 points: reliability, aesthetics, and REGENERATIVE BRAKING! First, you already noted this, but hub motors do not cause broken spokes, and if you know how to properly build a wheel around a hub motor (low spoke angles/cross patterns, quality parts, spoke prep, and attention to detail is basically it!), you're golden. Additionally, hub motors have 0-1 stages of gear reduction, not the typical 2 of a mid drive (fewer parts to fail), and do not contribute to chain wear and breakage. Reliability goes to HUB MOTORS. Second, hub motors look great, smaller ones are super stealth, and it's possible to integrate a controller in a motor (like old BionX systems did) or, as we do, in the battery using a hub motor. So hub motors look better too - or at least, are comparable. THIRD: REGENERATIVE BRAKING! With the right motor and setup, you can recover 15% of your energy used in hilly areas, and more importantly not wear down your brake pads when you brake. It's awesome, you should try a proper high-torque regen ready hub motor some day (like the GMAC motor from Grin Tech paired with their Phaserunner).
Some of it is opinion for sure, like aesthetics and reliability ( until we have actual factual data) for me the performance outward any benefit from a hub. Hubs are fine if you live in a retirement home in Florida with no hills in sight IMO😝. I’m not sure if %15 is attainable for the average bear, maybe if your actively “hypermiling” but realistically I’d say it’s more like 3-5%.
That is awesome that you run a shop though, do you sell premade Ebikes or do conversions?
Highly unlikely your ANY kind of an engineer, or your wouldn't make such stupid claims.
Regen on a bicycle is quite useless (except for the brake pad thing, which is a non-issue as well due to very cheap, and easy to swap) as they just don't have enough weight to generate much useful energy (rarely coast past 25-30MPH) your 15% claim is GROSSLY EXAGGERATED. What you do get is a lot of extra drag when your batt. goes flat.
Yep, small "shiny" hub motors do look pretty good, say a 250 watt like Giant used one time, in the same sentence you mention BionX, they are HUGE, and ugly as shit.
Anyone who thinks a hub is as good as a mid drive either lives on a pancake, or has not tried a mid drive, I have both, and live 600 feet "up" from town, the 500 watt BBS02 does not see, or slow down on the hill, ha I don't even have to pedal, the 500 watt (also bafang) hub struggles hard, AND uses about twice as much battery doing so, and if I didn't pedal quite hard it would stop completely.
Hub motors are OK if you live on relatively flat ground (they're still NOT as efficient) if you don't live on flat ground the SUCK, period. Like Johnny said you don't drive around with your car in high gear all the time do you ?...OH, maybe "you" do, I forgot, your an engineer.
PS your hub kit is WAY over priced.
I have converted bikes with Bafang Middrive motors (3 Conversions) and 2 Grin GMAC conversion with phaserunner. The GMAC Hub motor beats the Middrive hands down in my opinion on all aspects. (Handling, feel of the bike, shifting, off-road and pavement experience) Another aspect for my area, I have local trails that forbid E-Bikes. The hub motor conversion allows me to throw the original wheel back on the bike and be trail legal) I can climb the local mountain (Trail or road) much easier than the Bafang BBSHD drive with the GMAC hub motor and have 14% regeneration at the end of the ride. Beat that Mid-Drive. Have Grin Tech build your wheel for $60. And that useless Regen.... get's me back home after climbing the local mountain for a 48 mile round trip on a 13.5 amp hour battery. I have gotten 20% regen at the end of rides in the local hills. I think hub motors have a bad rap from people using cheap, poorly made motors with crappy controllers.
Is there any fold bikes with Gracie motor from grinn
H ha ha the picture of the wheel with bust spokes,, its not got a hub motor its just a front wheel BIG MISTAKE
I have a front hub. Maybe not the best, but 2-wheel drive really helps when navigating through some sand or loose dirt.
I’m sure
Agree 100%. Front hub is simple and bullet proof. If you bust the chain on the trail, the hub motor will get you home. My bike has plenty of hill climbing ability. I did the conversion myself for a fraction of the cost, even using quality parts.
@@bobwelwood3093 Amen brother! You and I think very much alike. I lace all my own wheels and everything. It is so easy I can't believe some people pay as much as $100 to lace a wheel...
I have to admit, I didn't put much stock in mid-drives, until I had a chance to try (at an ebike rental shop) several hub and mid-drive 1000w bikes, while I was selecting which one I wanted. Holy crap the difference in torque is just... insane. There was this inclined driveway (at least 30 degrees) to the shop (a good place to test the bike's climbing power), and with my 120 kilos, even geared 1000w hub motors REALLY struggled to get me up on torque alone. They managed, but at a crawl, something like 8 kph. The single gearless one I tried couldn't even move. The mid-drive - I just shifted to the 3rd lowest gear, and it powered up the driveway effortlessly. Jeezus.
With my delivery-job, and the hilly areas I sometimes have to traverse, it was a no-brainer for me to choose the mid-drive one. Now yes, it takes a bit more thinking to drive (I have to remember to downshift on every stoplight), but - that torque. I'm in love.
Great! I'm an old man who can't afford a mid-drive. I wouldn't want to be constantly shifting it. Maybe a small mid-drive motor? 250 watts? 😮
@@Mark-qv4bn With the mid-drive, you have to constantly shift, or you'll rip up the chain. All the power goes through that chain, so being in the right gear at the right time is essential. Try moving in a high gear, the motor will either stall or overheat, or in case of more powerful mid-drives, snap the chain. Same principle as oveheating the clutch in a car, if you try moving slowly in high gear.
If you don't want to constantly shift, go with a hub drive. The drive unit is separate from the chain. But the price is lower efficiency and less torque up the hills.
I think most of the responses are being delivered from serious high-power mid-drive folks. Cool. I also believe the point here is to demonstrate the advantages of a minimum wattage motor(750w USA) - which it clearly does with ANY kind of serious hill/incline challenge. This type/style of hub-cycle is fine if you live on basically flat ground at any wattage. (I'll beat ya up my hills)
As Johnny says, "It's way better to drive a mid-drive than anything else"
Although I prefer mid drive motors over hub motors for my area and riding style for many people hub motors work better. Several of my friends have Rad rovers with thousands of miles on them. Never any spoke issues although one burned out a motor due to weight and over stressing it on super steep hills.
For flatter areas and non enthusiasts hub motors are an excellent choice.
Mid drive motors stress the drivetrain and chain and poor adjustments to the drivetrain can and will snap chains. The average rider doesn’t know how to swap out a chain quickly and it is usually a messy job.
I use a direct drive hub motors in my pusher bob trailer . Small wheel dives great torque and 48 volts gives speeds over 30 mpg.
If a wheel is built properly a hub motor should be just fine. Plenty of non motorized bikes have wheel and spoke issues
You are right, I rode my hub motor ebike for about 4500 miles and only adjusted the spokes once.
Yes they do know how to replace a chain, I did it not knowing at 6 years old on a normal chain, now with a master link chain anyone can do it in 10 seconds, does the average user know how to replace a wheel compared to a chain witch is just a loop, the average person isn't buying mid or hub they are buying a premade
@@tomlamb3885 huh 🤔?
Give the average person a broken chain and have them fix it.
1. Do they How to make it the right length?
2. Do they know how to use a quick link?
3. Do they know how to use a chain breaker.
4. Will they get grease all over their hands 🙌?
5. Will they know how to thread it properly through the derailleur?
6. If the mess up they probably need a special pliers type tool to undo the quick link.
I would suggest that they would be more willing to change a tire vs a chain. Furthermore if they break a chain on a hub drive setup they can throttle home.
I speak from years of experience and also ran a bike shop for a number of years.
I prefer mid drive motors myself but I think many people are better served by hub motors.
@@richardwolf6269 length isn't super important if your trying to get home, everyone knows how to use a quick link it has 2 photos for instructions thats how easy they are and the pliers come free with the chain but their not special needle nose will work too
They can thread it the same way it came out or just google a single image of the chain, if you can replace a tire then you can use a masterlink, since replacing a tire is much more difficult in terms of strength, fitting the actual rubber over the rim normally needs those plastic stretching things, idk what their called but they hold the tire in place, you need a bike pump and possibly a wrench to undo the bolt if its not quick release, if your replacing a chain it probably takes 15 mins and you need 1 tool but a tire needs 2 to 3 tools and will take around 15 mins to put the tire on the rim and maybe another 5-10 to blow up an inner tube or check/ find leaks. Years of experience in taekwondo tell me im right
@@richardwolf6269 im thinking about adding a hub drive onto my mid drive bike just for dual wheel drive fun
I've had both. I only use hub nowadays. Regen braking. Long chain life. Heaps of grunt. Hub is the shizzle
grunt?
@@johnyradio2 Yep, grunt. As in you grunt walking it up steep hills.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 not with the right battery
@@johnyradio2 it's *much* easier to find high-wattage hub motors then mid-drives, you can compensate, and since most of the controllers don't even have restrictions built in.... He probably means "I've got the grunt of 3500w-5000w making my dropouts weep"
I prefer hub , you have a back up if your chain snaps , hub doesn’t rely on gear box or chain or another set of electronics ...just more stuff to go wrong , KISS keep it simple stupid. the gears were shown to be slow and inefficient early on ...
As for spokes you supposed to check you wheel is true weather you have a e bike or not , you can always use mag wheels !
Regular maintenance is essential for every bike , car , van, truck ...
I had too much issues with hub motors. I had to replace two times my hub motor due to internals meltdown. I live in a location with many steep hills and a hub-motor doesnt take the advantages of the chain when driving uphills. Instead the hub-motor just uses full power to reach its speed target. After replacing the motor for second time, I sold it and bought a mid-drive ebike and no issue since then.
Really helpful since most of the reason I'm looking for an E-bike over a regular bike is because my town is very hilly. Anything to make my ability to get around easier. I know it will be hard on the motor either way, but motors can be replaced much more cheaply than my legs which are much closer to needing major surgery.
That’s my issue, a lot of hills where I live, hub drive does help but a mid drive with all the torq & gear options it’s night & day . Better
One of the hills around here I'd like to get up quickly has a 20% grade. At 10 mph that would take 850W just for the change in potential energy, not accounting for rolling resistance and any loss in power between what the motor produces and what's delivered to the wheels.
He said in the video that the front hub motors somehow deliver a lot less torque, so apparently for equal wattage, you somehow have much more power loss between the stated wattage of the motor and what the bike actually gets.
I had a hub motor that drew 1100 to 1200 watts going up a particular hill at 7 mph with me pedaling as hard as I could in my long-wheelbase recumbent. I ground the spoke rings off that *exact* *same* *motor* and clamped the axle to a frame extension so it drove a freewheeling sprocket crank-motor style. (The whole motor still spun.) From there, I ran a chain to a freewheeling crank and adjusted the sprocket size until the motor's ideal RPM matched my preferred cadence. I went up that same hill at 12 miles per hour using 700 watts, also pedaling as hard as I could. I had much more power, much more speed, and about three times the range with the motor mounted to drive the crank.
Not only that, but one day the motor seized on me. I just removed the chain that ran from the motor to the crank and pedaled home the old fashioned way. If it had seized on the hub I would have been calling everyone I knew who had a pickup truck. So, the only thing I like better than a motor that drives the crank is a motor that drives a chain that drives the crank.
or once and awhile inspect your e bike and fix things on your hub/mid drive before it locks up
@@wesnxs, it was a sealed motor. The point is that it had over three times the power per kilowatt hour going up hills when it drove the crank instead of driving the hub, and that seizing did not leave me stranded as a hub motor would.
Would love to see some detailed pics of that, as I ride a tadpole trike recumbent with a 1500w rear hub. I'm sure it could do better than it does.
honestly I'm planning on upcycling old bikes into e-bikes and i love the idea of using hub motors for them. the majority of the market I'm planning on selling to cant afford mid drives. also i love the idea of setting up all wheel drive bikes. making some really fun off-roading possibilities for the kind of off-road i can still do with my shyte back.
Just be prepared to purchase a stock of various spokes and string and true a bunch of rims. My first one took about 2 days of trial, error and learning but after that it gets easier.
@@andypandy7769 thanks for the info will be pretty careful. theres a good chance that i will be buying custom built batteries from a fella ive seen here on youtube. but that all depends on money.
@@andypandy7769 haha, so true. I’m now in my 70s and am now just looking at electrifying my trusty 35 yr old MTB.
I think I'll go with mid drive. Just gonna wait couple months for price drop promotion. I like being quiet, stelt and more efficient. You don't have drag when you pedal only. It can't overheat. You can climb hills. Also you are lighter with couple kg or so. Only downside is snapping chain and price, but just be little careful and you will be fine.
My hub does all of those things. Quiet, no drag on pedals, doesn't overheat after hours, climbs hills like it's nothing, doesn't snap a chain and was like $250.
@@wob6776 Hub drives literally over heat way more than mid drives. And my hub drive and mid drive bikes are equally silent. Hill climbing is not even close lol
There is one thing I have not seen people mention.
For a hub drive e bike it's very difficult to take the drive wheel off. For example when you have a flat that can not be patched and you have to replace the whole tube or when you have to replace your tire, it is a nightmare especially the hub drives with torque arms installed.
I've had a few pinch flats with my hub drive bikes and yeah it isn't easy, but I got the hang of it finally and have the tube changed in 15 minutes with the tools I carry with me when I go exploring.
you can geta inner tube that comes with an end, its not circle so you can put in your wheel with out taking it off. They on amazon for £29, expensive yes but easy to put on.
Fixing a rear flat can definitely be challenging on some bikes with a rear hub motor. My ancheer does not have a plug on the wires to the rear hub. They are continuous to the controler, and there isn't enough slack to get the rim off.
Just a power lead and one bolt difference is not much extra work
Learn to patch the tube without removing the wheel. A top skill for rear hub drivers.
My hub drive in conjunction with my 24 speed Shimano Gears (3 on the crank & 8 sprocket cassette) allows me to ride my bike like a bike NOT a motorcycle (I almost NEVER use the throttle feature)
The reason I bought this setup is so I can get the exercise & not the bike. My daily street ride is 10-15 miles and only use 1-2 power level to assist me on hills that are approx 20% of ride. Utilizing the proper gearing allows me to consistently get 60-70 mile range, between charging, on my Ancheer Blue Spark w/36v/10.4Ah/350 Watt rear Hub motor. I think the most important feature on my bike are the HYDRAULIC disc brakes.
That's a great comment you've made I have just brought a rear hub drive I use it like a normal mountain bike but use the electrical power to help with the hills at 63 years old and 16 stone I'll take that
The whole video i disagreed with till the end which made it all make sense, 3,5,10kw motors are insane for speed
They are also unlawful in most places. Rarely enforced, though. Ask your insurance company.
Have been working on a bicycle shop as well. We sold many mids and hubs. The reliability- you don't mention the effort and cost of fixing a mid that has worn out bearings and gearing system parts. That's why I run a hub motor.
In my experience it’s easier working on a mid drive. But slightly. Possibly because I’m used them now. I guess it also depends on what you have to repair on each motor.
Or the excessive wear on your drivetrain, I basically had to replace everything but the rear derailleur every six to eight months. Don’t get me wrong mid drives have a lot of advantages but bike drivetrains aren’t built to commute with 1500w of power plus me every day.
After having replaced the hall sensors on a hub motor because the cheap bearings wore a bit, causing scraping on the outside of the rotor....I'd happily replace gears or bearings in a mid drive motor. Hall sensors can be very tedious and time consuming.
What bearings? The wheel bearings? Those are cheap and super easy to change. Gears? You mean changing a rear cassette? That's like 5 minute job
@@sunyun4425 the one i did was an unbranded chinese motor. on a gio scooter...solid hub wheel, no spokes. sealed with silicone, just splitting the hub open was a challenge - it was apparently never intended to be serviced. then to get the hub motor wheel bearings done, need to clip off the plastic plug because its bigger than the bearing bore...were talking a couple hours here at minimum. doing the hall sensors including soldering and splitting the hub open was around 4-6 hours....so yeah internal gears on a mid motor i think access and service would be a lot quicker.
Great video Johnny. I agree with Johnny. I decided to use an E-bike to commute to work, so I can avoid looking like I was in the TDF when I get to work. I converted my 8 speed internally geared bike using a 750 watt mid-drive. It has a tension sensor on my shift cable. The sensor causes the motor to pause when I shift through my gears. It reminds me of cars I have owned that have a stick shift and a clutch! It works great. I start in 1st gear and shift up as I gain speed. I don't have to use the high assist to accelerate. I have lots of stop/start intersections to deal with in my commute and using the gears is a lot better on the battery. I rarely get past the 5th level of assist in my commute and its usually 4-5 minutes fast than just pedaling. I don't think I will break a 1/8" chain any time soon.
As far as “transmitting power through the spokes”, that is EXACTLY THE SAME for mid-drive motors. Do you even Physics, bro? In fact, you just got done telling us that mid-drive motors have higher torque, so mid-drive motors are *even harder* on spokes than hub motors!
What works the spokes loose it the way the torque is applied. Hub motors are direct. The mid drive is cushioned through the chain and driveline. Do YOU even physics? Same principle is why an engine creates more HP at the crank than at the wheels. You should have a basic understanding about ANYTHING before sucking on your foot this hard. ever.
THE T0RQUE FR0M A MID IS N0T A STRESS 0N SP0KES DIRECTIY~
@@skyjuiceification how is it not the gear set connect to the spokes? Hmm
@@skyjuiceification of course it is, all torque is transmitted through the spokes
I think they come apart in hub motor types (I'm assuming he's experience is valid) is because hubs have like 21 poles or something, so in each turn off the wheel they get a big pull then smaller power 21 times, which instead of continuously pulling would rather shake it, or hit it, like an impact driver. Mid drives have reduction, the motor spins much faster, so the big pull isn't that much of a problem as the motor switches poles (like 4k30hz vs 1080p120hz, you g get the same amount of pixels, but damn the 1080p120 will look nicer to your eyes, especially in games)
Not tried a mid-drive but very happy with my hub drive, assist only (UK) Absolutely no trouble with varied terrain (hills, valleys, on my commute) I have had the chain come off when I was starting out, over bumps, but that was probably more how I was riding it, I would stop peddling when hitting a bump but through cycling confidence, I don't anymore.
Having driven both for 10 000 km, I would choose hub motor on front wheel. It's better in deepish snow (or sand), because with both wheel drive it's easier to go straight and have better traction. Lower power output don't really matter, because speed is regulated to 25 kph (well, mine goes 33 kph) and battery capacity is not a problem. And hub motor is more maintenance free, with mid drive I needed to replace chain on that 10 000 km once, no such need with hub motor. ;)
For biking enthusiasts who drive longer distances on one go, don't have snow and actually bother to do some maintenance more than once a year, mid drive is probably better. I don't do much maintence, just add some pressure to wheels when it gets so heavy that it drains battery too fast. As a sidenote I don't even change studded winter tires at summer, because with ebikes it's better to have bit of exra sound, so that I don't need to ring a bell to get past people. For some reason, ringing a bell really annoys some people and reaction times are anyways too slow and sometimes reaction is that people get into way.. Much smoother going through traffic with winter tyres, everyone keeps out of way and no negativity at all..
And it seems that bike thieves are not really interested about my bike. There's not so much valuable parts in hub motor ebike, where as mid drives are valuable.
Definitelly. I do love the added traction of my AWD bike. You're on point.
I keep hearing this "replacing the chain" business. Few things easier than, "replacing a chain". They are easy to carry with you and all you need is a chainbreaker.
@@BillOweninOttawa Well, first replacing the chain, is a hassle, it's maintenance. Then, carrying a chain and a chainbreaker everywhere, is REALLY annoying and should be unnecessary.
Lastly, we are talking about having to replace your whole drivetrain because it will be worn out way faster: cassette and crankset, not only the chain.
@@xmtxx chainbraker and chain lock should be enough. And it's close to impossible to break a properly made chain, aside kmc garbage. Cassette is worn by worn chain not otherwise. And not way faster.
@@xmtxx Replacing the chain is peanuts.
I have hub motor 1000w. Controller built in. Downside is I had to file the dropouts on the bike, a rear puncture is a bch. Pros, it has a throttle, I don't even peddle to work. Goes thirty miles an hour and if I peddle to get it up to speed it's faster than the average car off the mark. I can ride on the tow paths along the canals. It's basically an illegal moped with no tax or fuel costs.. But I agree with the video, stop start riding has big wear on these motors. If you're cruising for miles they're fine. But urban rides I'd like a mid drive in future. Awesome video. A lot of info delivered really well. You got a great talent.
Geared hub, direct drive hub, front or rear drive, mid drive. No one type outdoes all the others. Each is the best at something. So choose what suits the most of your riding.
Well said. I still won’t carry/offer hub drives though😀 I will say mid drives are a “smarter technology” and will always recommend them.
@@JohnnyNerdOut would you recommend a $10K car to get across a lake instead of a $50 boat, becuse the car is more "smarter technology"?
I'll recommend what suits the bikes intended purpose the best, geared hub, direct hub, front or rear hub, or mid drive.
@@spinnanz absolutely. There is just so few scenarios in which I would recommend a hub motor. Maybe for someone just starting out with an E bike and who doesn’t live anywhere near Hills and doesn’t need to go above 15 miles an hour. The hub motor is totally fine for that type of situation.
@@spinnanz That analogy doesn't make sense. A car is never going to be the "smarter technology" for crossing water. You are comparing a car to a boat to do a boat's job. @JohnnyNerdOut is comparing two bikes to do a bikes job.
I would recommend a boat with the motor in the back rather than one with the motor in the front. With a boat rear drive is the "smarter technology".
I agree with you. It should be up to the rider. If the rider is planning a lot of off-road use a mid drive is better. To begin with the weight is in a better location. If they are planning to use it on street only a hub drive will be fine.
So if the rider (buyer) wants a hub drive they will go to a different shop and @JohnnyNerdOut won't have to deal with them if they decide they don't like it. Nothing wrong with that.
@@AngusNB What if the boat with the motor in the front is a jetski? water-jet engines can be "smarter technology" and lots of fun.
All very interesting but it does depend on what you want to get out of your cycling. If you are doing it simple as a way to get from a-b then a powerful mid drive is great. But if you cycle to keep fit, then a smaller hub motor which just assists you on those really steep climbs is much better for you. I have a 350w hub motor, bought from eBay as a kit (which came with everything I needed) and I have set it up as peddle assist only, no throttle, and it is perfect. I sometimes come home with most of the power still in the battery and other days, when I choose a hilly ride, most of the battery is gone.
Hub motors are starting to be more mainstream, and by more mainstream, I mean cheap. Mid drive ebikes off the shelf did command a huge premium just a few years ago, and are only just now becoming comparable in price to hub motor ebikes. If I were to buy another ebike, I would consider mid drive for the points you mentioned. One thing that bothers me about this comparison is that the example videos you showed is for motor only, without pedaling. For me ebike is supposed to supplement my energy input, not replace it all together. I never coast just because I have an electric bike.
I just don't like not pedaling. And I don't do it for the exercise.
Tbh i almost never use pedal assist. I have a 1000w bafang bbshd mid drive. I either use throttle only or pedal only.
Just picked up my brand spanker 750W Dual Motor E-Bike and it's out of this world AMAZING, very strong torque, example climbed up a 25% gradient hill which approximately 1/4 mile climb , and at a consistent speed of 29 miles an hour , at last I've found an E-Bike that I'm happy with the overall performance!!
Love your channel buddy, you are amazing !!
I have the hub drive and really enjoy it. When I priced out the hub drive, which came with the complete wheel, battery with built in controller and a display screen, The cost was half the price.
check into the Dillenger off road deluxe kit.
From the start I've always like Mid drive over Hub drive. The reason for this was that if you damage your wheels you can always get better wheels and even run a different size like from 29er to 27.5 without really worrying about the drive. But with a hub drive you have to really get the motor or wheel repaired and that takes time and money. And deep down will you be happy with that large lump of metal in the middle of your wheel? That's why a lot of proper mtb's use mid drive over hub drive. And it's more of the balance of the bike. Better to have the motor in the middle and low down then to have it in the wheel. But yeah it's true what you said about the spokes it kinda makes sense now. I think hub drive is only good if you live in a country that is flat without any hills like Holland where is pretty flat. But for me I would still run a mid drive any day. I have my eye on a Nukeproof Megawatt just waiting for it to drop in price because right now you can buy a car for less.
Wel as a Dutch person I can tell you e-bikes with hub motors are almost gone by now. When e-bikes where a new think most had hub motors. But most new e-bikes have mid drive motors.
@@egbertthomas3684 That is unfortunate. Maybe we will figure out sooner than later how nonsensical a mid drive ebike is, especially for commuting.
@@difflocktwo for commuting ok if you dont have long steep hills to climb but if you need to do that dont get a hub drive one just dont. for e mountainbiking hubs are crap aswell due to way to crap weight balance. central weight balance is better. mid drives are just more flexible in terms of gear ratios. but they do wear the drivetrain more compared to hubs
@@SimonBauer7 We need to consider system costs and expected loads. I would say for a given cost you can always build a faster, more practical, hub drive bike. Maybe there are very specific conditions where a hub might cost more to keep up with the mid drive. Building a mid drive as low maintenance as a hub is also going to add a lot of cost.
@@difflocktwo in terms of pure cost yes you are probably right but it really depends on the usecase. for me a hub would be garbo as i do emtb tech climb where weight balance/gear choice is important. by having a motor in one fixed gear ratio you are either loosing the low end torque or the top speed. shure if you had 2000w+ you could bruteforce that but i am talking about a normal 250w nom/4-600w peak one here and in this power range a hub just isnt for me.
I am a senior and I like my hub motor with throttle, I don't have to pedal at all
I love the hub motor too, easier to install, less maintenance. 600kms in and not an issue :)
I'm 68 and have a mid drive. I find this keeps me fit as I can still use the gears like an ordinary bike and sometimes rarely use the pedal assist, but it's there as and when needed. I've been riding bikes for over 60 years and tried just about every bike there is (including a Penny Farthing) and the mid drive is probably the best ever. I realise that not everybody is bothered about fitness but the older you get the more important it is.
You don't have to pedal mid drives either and you get longer mileage out of your battery packs because you can use optimum gears ratios with them.
@Mal S we have one of each in our house and I much prefer my hub drive bike to my husband's mid drive. We tried over twenty ebikes before we purchased and bought the ones we liked the best. For me the mid drive bikes weren't more pleasurable.
@@oilburner225 my hub drive is an 8 gear. I use them a lot in our hilly neighborhood.
Perfect explanation of the benefits of a mid-drive at any wattage - well done young man!
I have had 3 mid drives and now have 4 hub drives ( I have built all of these) and I can tell you this opinion is somewhat misleading. All 3 of my mid drives failed; 2 mechanically and 1 controller.
I then had huge issue on parts supply to try to fix these.
I have done 28,000 miles on the hubs in the last 18 months with no issues whatsoever. Yes watch your spoke tension but after a number of tension adjustments this issue almost never surfaces again as the spokes then "settle". If you use your bike for transport (not off road as the rear axle weight is too great with the hub) then the hub motor is the Best choice. And if there was ever a major issue just buy another hub motor wheel for $200 and install. Saves all the expense of going to a bike shop too.
Thanks for the insight. Curious, what kind of mid drive did you have that failed? I personally like the performance that mid drives offer. But it is an opinion piece :)
@@JohnnyNerdOut I had 2 Aprilla ebikes with mid drive that failed but the motor was branded under their name. Also the two different hub motors; gear driven hub and direct drive. Gear driven hubs are renowned for issues ( I had 2 fail) but not direct drive. I have never even heard of a Hall sensor failure in a direct drive but have heard of a controller failure but again these are cheap and easy to replace.
@@maxward9953 I also prefer hub motors but I know that sometimes the adhesive holding the magnets in place fail.
Bafang geared hub magnet glue had to be fixed. My other Direct Drive hub was fried making the mistake of WOT up Waterton. Bought the internal controller DD Magic Pie and holy crap that thing is a rocket once unlocked. Internal controller makes for a clean look. We will see if I have any issues with heat. I just received a Bafang ultra, which I've heard can eat chains if proper riding isn't followed. I can understand why many prefer the cheaper hub.
Additionally, the torque going to the wheel is going to be the same for a given power output, whether it's coming from a mid drive or hub motor
its like you're always stuck in second gear,
when it hasn't been your day your month or even your year.
Why do you want more than one speed?
@@difflocktwo ruclips.net/video/q-9kPks0IfE/видео.html
@@eightv1982 lol sorry, took me while even when watching the video. you got me.
@@difflocktwo For when you have 2 many Friends…..episodes
Gg 👏
I chose hub drive as I hate chain drive! If I had a belt drive then I be more for it. Also cars as an analogy would have to include another motor cuz that is how you make a hub last longer is to help it take off and climb steep hills by pedaling.
The gaa engine analogy is poor anyway.
It omits the fact that any electric motor has full torque at 0 rpm.
Gas engines have to have a gear box due to their power curve.
I
I've got two bbshd 58v I built, one on a giant anthem 2 and one on a commencal meta hardtail. Love em, maintain them, 5000+miles no failures. Set up the hall sensor on left brake that acts like a clutch so your not applying power during shifts, shimano 11sp will last indefinitely if you change the chain at or before 0.75%stretch.
My wife's ebike has a 750 watt hub motor, mine has a 250 watt Bosch mid drive. Mine accelerates and climbs much better.
Impossible, defies reality.
@@michaelbrownlee9497 Nope. A guy I know who has been selling ebikes for years says that he doesn't even look at watts. Different engines and drive systems have different efficiencies.
@@michaelbrownlee9497 wattage of an electric motor refers to the current the motor draws (wattage/voltage=current in amps) either at peak or sustained, not how much useful work you get in exchange. A mid drive is in the 90% efficiency. A good high end hub can get up in that range too! But most of them are in low-mid 80%, worse if they have a controller out of a crackerjack box.
to add to sfdint's comparison, I'd wager his Bosh could out-accelerate a PK80/BT80 2-stroke, and that's 2,500 watts. Eventually the higher wattage will win on flat ground, but torque (affecting acceleration and climbing power) rules until you're actually up to speed.
@@DFX2KX OK so we no longer will use the term wattage, only amps. Thanks for the top.
@@michaelbrownlee9497 not necessarily. Wattage is still useful (of two motors with the same wattage and efficiency, the one with higher voltage uses lower current).but current and efficiency become particularly important at the lower end of the power spectrum, thus cheaper hub motors.
I have been pondering dual hub + mid drive on a stretch cruiser frame I bartered for. It can accept 26" x 4.0 wheels, I haven't messured the drop outs since I got it back in November but iirc the rear was 190mm. I will be building the bike for comfort and long distance trips. I have seen some people with the same battery pack getting more range when they went dual hub motors, so I hope you got your dual hub vs mid drive video done : )
I was thinking about a front hub-drive and a rear mid-drive... So, that's not unheard of?
@@johnw65 checkout Christini awd bicycles, the best there is..
@@sittingduckass3676 Wow, Military-grade AWD elec dirtbikes for stealth recon...My new T42 is a 750/1100w Lectric style folder. Plan is to use it up, adding a front hub and mid-drive after the rear hub dies.
Was taught how to build wheels by Schwinn at the factory in the 80's. Building a wheel is a piece of cake!
then y is he making out it hard, whats the secret
@@rumpelstiltskin6252 There are RUclips videos that show you how to do it.
@@rumpelstiltskin6252 don't know mate, had my hub wheel rebuilt when I damaged it, no big deal at all, he's talking bollocks.
I've also been professionally building bike wheels 35+ years. Point one, the power of the motor goes thru the spokes regardless of whether the motor is the hub, or the motor drives the hub (mid-drive). So the spoke problems must come from a different factor.....how about the fact the hub is so much larger, so you have shorter spokes, and then the angle of spoke entry to the rim is greater. Or if it's not greater, then it's only cross 1 pattern which is less rigid, and there's the problem. Regardless, you get spoke problems, unless built with heavier spokes, but the fact remains ALL THE POWER GOES THRU THE SPOKES IN BOTH INSTANCES. The only way out of that is friction drive on the tyre, like the Sinclair ZETA or Velosolex. Cheers.
I watched your intro video and loved it. I felt like I now have a friend that is a e-bike pro! I had a bunch of questions and found that you have a ton of videos already posted that answer most of my questions. Now I just need to make the time to watch all of them. Thanks and keep up the great work!
I love my hub motor. So far (1,300 miles) it's been bullet proof and I would buy it again. It's funny to compare it to the engine on a car since we are talking about electric motors😂. How many "speeds" do electric cars have? Pretty sure just one. I've only used one mid-drive but I wasn't impressed. My Chinese eBay kit was $190(no battery) and is still going strong.
climb an insane mountainbike climb say goodby to your hub motor middrive has a huuuuge gearing advantage middrive kills the chain more but you do you
The geartalking killed me
Teslas don’t have gears because the motor is around 170 times more powerful then a bbshd
It doesn’t need them
@@SimonBauer7 dual hub motors defeats this problem and gives you all wheel drive
I love my rear wheel drive ebike and have not had any of the problems mentioned. I am 300 pounds, ride up hills just about every time I go out and have over 2500 miles on the bike. It has enriched my life! I always peddle as exercise is part of the reason I bought an ebike. If you find your mobility challenged but still have your balance…get an ebike!
Love my hub bike. I have not had a problem under 2,000 dollars
I love mid-drives. I'm a mechanic, and my mid-drive customers are very reliable consumers of chains and freehub cassettes. Easy money.
If they are going through drivetrains they should be educated how to properly ride. Many new riders are not aware of when to shift and that can put a lot of stress on the drivetrain. Although that might hurt your business it sounds like😐
Nice video, in general I am more a fan of mid drives too, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the hub drive's regenerative ability; something a mid drive can't be set up for.
Only direct drive hub motors can support regen which makes up almost less than 1% of hub motor bikes. There is not enough inertia n a bike to make it worth the extra cost imo.
@@JohnnyNerdOut Yeppers - none what-so-ever. Mid-Drive is the future. All the other offerings - hub drives - are just managers trying to liquidate their assets ASAP.
I have two hub motor bikes and haven’t had any of the problem he’s describing. My oldest ebike is about 5 years old. The biggest problem I had with it is cross win. The bike pickup a lot of cross win due to the battery housing. As you will guess, the battery is internal. Not sure why his bike couldn’t go up that little 350W motor never fail on any hill using peddle assist. The number one thing I thought he would talk about is weight distribution where mid-drive wins hands down.
It got up the hill with pedal assist. Only got stuck when he did throttle only for both bikes
if you enjoy pedaling like me (exercise) get mid drive, if you just want to move from point a to b, then get a hub motor. I tried both and I can't imagine myself riding on a hub drive ever again.
Great point
Excuse me, but you can get PAS with a hub motor also.
@@paulreeder5241 and who said hub motors don't have pas? stop imagining things.
I don't agree with you saying "Hub Motors suck". I do agree with saying that Mid Drives are better. You have definitely convinced me of that.
I enjoyed riding my single speed bike that was converted to an electric bike before it was damaged by the rain due to the controller box that like you said you have to mount somewhere on the bike and make it look nice.
You got a subscriber out of me. I am very interested in electric bike conversion and you definitely know what you're talking about.
Great video. Your explanation helps me decide the to choose a mid-drive motor, thanks!
Glad it helped!
Hey, I’m new to ebikes but
5:30
Aren’t BBSHDs 1000w? How did you get 1500w on your chain with a bafang?
1000w is the nominal power of the motor 1560 watts is the peak power at 52v * 30amps
Thank you for this succint but detailed breakdown of the differences between the two. I think I was leaning toward a hub only for the sake of a more convenient installation. But understanding the (now) obvious performance of a drivetrain versus a wheel in terms of torque I have no doubt about mid drive. This is an older video but I am curious which motor would be geared the best for a utility bike that is used towing a trailer and hill climbs, sometimes both. I was planning to add a e-bike drivetrain sooner but as I rode more I got in shape I find I dont need it as much as I needed to get in shape but it would be nice having assist in the hilly terrain I explore on bike camp trips with a small trailer for gear/surfboard.
Go for the 1000w, it will run cooler and handle your kit with ease, IMO. please update us on how you go.
@@slavojalois1639 1000 watt definetly worth the money. Mine rides like brand new after 2 years
In a very glad that there are people like you that take the time to put out valuable information because when I bought my bike I shopped for months before settling on the all-wheel drive one that I did but please keep making more videos they're very well done and well thought out
I agree ! Some of these European guys there info & channels suck . I love my real in your face nerd Jonny ! Lol
Another possible reason to go with a front hub motor over any other motor is in a trike conversion.
You saved me from making a mistake. I have had a mid drive for 4 years and its been excellent. Recently I snapped the chain on it (after 2 years of use). That 10km walk home made me decide to buy a hub motor (I havent bought it yet). Listening to you has convinced me to not do this, and as you suggested, just carry a spare chain with me.
Thanks for your video. Oh and yes the Bafang mid drives are pretty durable. Mine has been fine and required almost no maintenance.
And if you don't want to carry a spare chain around, take a small chain tool and shorten the chain by a link (providing it's a geared bike). You may not be able to use the highest gear, but it will get you home.
What I like most about the mid drive is the center of gravity is kept at the center of the bike and down low. It handles more like a sports car. Hubs are heavier and carry that weight higher at the back of the bike. It's just not ideal for handling.
Why would hubs carry their weight at the back of the bike if you put the motor on the front to balance out the back?
Thanks for the best video I've seen online on both types of motors. I was going to purchase the Willier Filante Hybrid road bike with a rear hub motor but decided my need for a touring bike made me rethink my purchase. I decided to go with the Specialized 2024 Creo 2 road bike with a mid drive motor with touring attatchement points for racks and panniers.
The price point was slightly less for a bike that meets my two needs. I've done over 100.000kms over the last twenty years on my own power but time to take some of the stress off my body to enjoy the ride with more ease being a woman in her sixties. Trying to convince my partner to upgrade our co-motion tandem to make riding easier but he's not there yet! Lol 😊
Tesla fan here, they don't have hub motors yet I think Lordstown will be
If you want more low end torque with the hub drive, just simply peddle with your motor during acceleration.
That's what I do.
@@Another-Address - Pedal assist is not the same on cheap bikes, it's more of a 'pedal switch'. It doesn't respond to torque, it just decides that you're pedaling based on the magnets passing the sensor and turns the motor on, then turns it off when you stop pedaling for a few seconds.
It's much better for me to use the throttle and assist it with pedaling. So I guess it's more of a 'motor assist' as I'm helping the motor by pedaling, rather than the other way around.
I think of a hub drive as a city bike motor while a mid drive as a hill climbing beast
My first E- Bikes in 2011 where E-Motto rear hub drive. I never had any problems as long as 24 volt 10 AH battery was charged up. If battery died hub motor never really dis-engaged making bicycle very hard to peddle. I just purchased Gazelle mid-drive motors . What a difference in performance.👍
Looking around, mid drive ebikes seem to be much more expensive than hub bikes!
one of the problems is, you can get really good hub motors at the cheap end. A 250w voilamart and a 250w swytch/bafang hub drive perform pretty much the same. Cheap mid-drives on the other hand are pretty rubbish - you are basically just buying a container of factory smoke. Pretty much everyone who sings the praise of mid-drives rides bafang as cheap mid-drives just turn your bike into a bomb.
@@Debbiebabe69 I did not regret at all going BBS-HD. Use a good wax-based lube, and a KMC e-bike chain, as well as the Luna 42 tooth chainring.
The lube has ~ 8 to 12 oz heavy gear oil (superlube ISO 680) per pound of wax, 5 to 7 parts paraffin to one part each of beeswax and sticky microcrystalline waxes. I was cooking the chain every 75 to 100 miles, using an old crock pot. Chain wear was less than .5 on the Park tools “ruler” after over 1000 miles. The chain will need cleaning in kerosene prior to rewaxing.
I did regret not getting a stouter chain when some wretch came along with bolt-cutters...
@@dennisyoung4631 Used to be a cycle courier in London the number of times I found couriers having their bike stolen or some other a-hole courier putting glue or matches in people's locks there wasn't a lock that they couldn't cut or break open somehow.
I even brought a lock that came with a year's worth of free insurance after needing to claim on it for the 3rd time they refused to insure my bike ever again.
twice was when it was stolen and the 3rd time was when someone stuck glue and sticks in the lock they sent someone out to remove the chain it took over an hour so god knows how these people can steal bits in under 3 minutes with a good chain but they do.
the biggest joke is finding your bike has gone and a note telling you how much they want to give it back because they know you have no bike you have no income and by the time you claim your insurance you could be out of work for 4 weeks. they only do that with cheaper bikes normally as your likely not to be insured.
and the bike not worth much selling it.
My 1500w hub spokes were so whack out of box it would have spagetti'd right away, it's for a '53 board track conversion ballooon bike. Good points!
So YOU chose one with crap build quality. This video talks about individual company issues nothing to do with the technology like he tries to make out. By a target bike and you will easily buckle the rear wheel.but that doesnt mean the standard technology of bike wheels has a huge issue.
Thank you so much for sharing that, you just made my decision for me Very informative I loved how you explain the mechanics of both choices by far the most intelligent explanationThank you.
D class
Thank You Jonnynerdout !!! I am a 69 year old lifelong garage nerd. I have recently become fascinated by ebikes.
Yours is a educated hub motor middrive comparison. Thanks. Subscribed.
4:20 This is known as locked rotor amps and duty cycle for industrial motors . . .
Some motors can easily withstand this type of punishment . . . but they are usually rare and very expensive ! ! !
E-bike Mfg. could certainly benefit if they were to use the same standards that are applied to industrial motors . . .
5:55 Seems like we spoke too soon . . .
More torque equals more broken parts . . .
This is easy to demonstrate with a TORQUE wrench . . .
I appreciate the knowledge and advice very much thanks. I think I might have to save up more for middrive
Just some clarification please, when you talk about hub drive being single geared, but they actually have various levels of electric assist, or "power levels" generally from 1 to 3 or 1 to 5 where higher level = more power. Eg you could use level 1 as eco mode for longer journey but switch to 3 on a hill climb for more help.
In the side by side comparison the middrive bike, the guy wasn't pedalling. Can you throttle only with that motor? I mean if your chain isn't broke. Sometimes it's fun to just cruise like that
Mechanically hub motors only have 1 gear ratio. Both systems can have a throttle only and also use pedal assist.
It's a difference of where the motor is located in the powertrain. Two motors with otherwise equivalent outputs and speeds, one direct drive, and one with a multi ratio transmission between it and the load, the one with the transmission can produce both a wider range of usable speeds and power levels.
I have two bikes right now, one with a Bafang Ultra and the other a Bafang 1,000 watt hub motor. Since I just like to use throttle, the hub drive is more pleasant to ride...
Funny I use the throttle on my mid drive all the time.
@@dhincks1 Me too, I've always had motorcycles but it's not the same, with the Ultra seems like I'm always babying it so as not to destroy the drivetrain and having to run through the gears from off the line isn't fun, more of a drag for me but that's coming from someone that has both types of motors...
@@BubbafromSapperton that's the crappy stock controller that's the problem, if you run a FOC controller with field weakening its the best!
@@Fellafoe69 Na, since I can't turn peddles I ride my Bafang Ultra throttle-only in 3rd gear, that's still a hell of a ride especially off the line. Worried about how much I would lose if my bike got stolen so easily otherwise a simple step-up would be a Wattwagons modded Ultra motor at 2,300 watts but I'm a slow smell the roses and enjoy the scenery rider... 😆
@@Fellafoe69 My Ultra is a 9-speed, most of the gears on it are useless, only really need a few with that motor I live on a mountain and first and second on my bike are useless...
I agree 100% I did my wife's mountain bike and mine we both have front and rear suspension and tons of power I had to go to a 38 front tooth drive gear because the 44 was waaaay to fast, with my 38 I still get 44 Km on gravel road. but climb!!! OMG , gear down and crank the power up to 5 or 6 and you can climb walls. Forget the Hub drive nonsense. My kit was a BFANG everything was supplied . Love it. I did both bikes with a 11AMhr batt for $1500 CND $ 750 WATT.
Having been on endless sphere for a long time, I can say that regardless of what motor setup you use, you will have problems regardless, what setup will depend on your environment. But a lot of what you are saying in this video is out of context or far too generalised to be applicable in reality. No setup is better than the other in general. Cost and reliability for on road use and light off road use, hub drive all the way. Heavy off road, get a mid drive and only a proper mid drive like bosch or possibly bafang or if you know what your doing, then do a proper professional build yourself. In my experience, running a QS205 at 22kw with cooling mods, decimates everything on road it comes into contact with under acceleration and especially at top end. It has no problems climbing hills and in 20k miles I have not ONCE! had to maintain it apart from occasionally check the spokes for tightness which is standard practice. If you have a MC chain and large rear sprocket you can run the same power reliably on mid drive also and it would probably accelerate better, but it would look like a motor bike and be more expensive and more complicated to build and get rite. Hub drives haven't reached there peak yet though, when axial flux hub motors become common place there will be a large shift in performance of hub motors.
@Jinx Powder yeah that's the input power at least anyway haha. There's a chunk of voltage sag on full throttle so It realistically is more like 18 kw output.
I like the new stile mid drive with the belt drive combined with the internally geared hub. Right now they're stupid expensive, but much better design.
Absolutely. Check out the new ebike by Harley Davidson. Great bike, just underpowered
@@JohnnyNerdOut You forgot over priced as well.
Got a belt drive...silent
My wife's screams when the credit card came due...well it's worth it
@@SocalSamStokes yeah you like it? I heard one guy once complain about the hub's blowing from the torque of a thousand watt mid Drive, but I've only heard it once.
I have a Stromer ST 2 (hub motor) and an RM mid-drive motor, Stromer is a better performer in every respect.
This guy is comparing very low end bike setups with low power levels. And, I do agree that mid drives make a lot of sense there.
I have both a hub drive ebike and a mid drive ebike. Both are 52V and both are 1000W. The mid drive controller program has been personalized. The mid drive feels more natural and has more torque in the mid range. The mid is way faster also. IMO if you compare the two at the same amperage and wattage, the mid drive is the performance king. Application is everything, including the factors that make the choice. So either way you go, you are going! Ebikes are amazing and both of my ebikes are fun to ride.
Totally agree
a torque sensor on a hubmotor has a much better "bicycle feeling" than a bbshd cadence sensor ever will.
Just like all my opinions I said in the video, it's totally personal taste.
@@JohnnyNerdOut well it depends on if you want your bicycle to accelerate from foot pressure or from spinning the pedals like a guinea pig with no pressure,
thats the difference of torque sensor and cadence sensor, thats why a cadence sensor is $10 and a torque sensor setup cost more than the motors you sell...
I have bafang 1000w and 2 hubs motors i like more hubs ,the linear acceleration whit out changes the gears ⚙ is fantastic 👌
Any mid drive with the same wattage would smoke your hub motor off the line.
Both systems have plus & minus.
If you are going to mid drive you also need to go to an internal gear belt drive due to the additional stress and potential chain wear.
@@midnight4109 Most mid-drives can't accommodate a belt and an IGH that can handle the full torque of a good mid-drive is as rare as hen's teeth and consequently expensive. I have yet to see a belt & IGH combination on anything more than 800 watts but the industry usually use them only for bikes under 500 watts.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 What do you recommend for an e-bike?
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 Would a Rohloff Speedhub with belt work on a mid-drive?
@@sammiller6631 I'm not sure. There's no reason it shouldn't work but I don't think anyone is making carbon fiber belt chain ring adapters for DIY mid-drives (YET). Since there are belt driven mid-drives on the pre-fab market it's only a matter of time though.
I' personally wouldn't run an IGH on anything over 750 watts. An IGH creates a better chain line but is not intended to run so much power and is difficult & expensive to repair compared to freewheels or cassettes.
I just installed a 350 watt (36v, 13 Amp battery) hub drive on my Milwaukee gravel bike and the hill performance is astounding. On paved roads it levels hills nicely, feels like a tailwind, and on the roughest, steep gravel it gives me confidence I didn't have before. Can't think of anything worse than spinning-out or stalling on a steep gravel hill. The bicycle is equipped with a 10-speed 11-32 cassette with a 26/39 crankset, as long as there's traction, never had a problem in the machine's 18,300 kilometers on the dirt but the e-hub contributes greatly.
I completely disagree on your view my hub drive is extremely good on low and high torque it's not hard to upgrade the spokes and just run a check list every other ride also I comfortably do 37mph with a top of 41mph using a hub with a mid drive you have to peddle hub drive it's throttle and go a mid drive is so much harder on your entire frame and it's not way more fun I can promise you that
What voltage are you running?
It's a 52v batt but full charge levels out to 58v
@@JohnnyNerdOut so in all I'm running a 1000w hub at least that's what was claimed by seller and I've got a 18 mof controler with a 46amp max output
46amp? That’s a lot! 58x 46= 2,668 watts. Something with that kind of power will definitely be good at hill climbing and top speed! This vid was mainly to show the performance difference between 750w street legal versions of both motors. I have zero issues with hub motors performance when they start to creep to 2,000 watts and above. Ride on brother!
@@JohnnyNerdOut will do and you the same sorry about my blunt type of aproch in the matter and if looking at it compared to what I ride and what you've explained in the video it's two totally different animals and my bike isn't exactly legal in the slightest
I did a mid-drive conversion on my bike, but I think it depends on the starting point. I recently advised someone that they should do a front hub on their bike, as they had a chain guard, an normal front wheel and they they would be towing a kid behind and have a child seat on the back. They said they did not live in a hilly area.
Most ppl I know with front hub conversions are happy with them. Brompton use them. Horses for courses.
I am so glad I have a hub motor, was approx 10 miles from home on my last ride out and my chain snapped and was not able to repair it there and then but still got home using the hub motor. would have this been possible with a mid drive motor ?
No that’s THE great thing about hub motors 👍
Yes. Just don't buy shit components like kmc and there ever wouldn't be a need for it in the first place