Hi, let me share a bit of experience, i have a very small business in brazil, I have personally ridden a ebike for 4 years, doing deliveries, riding on a a higher speed pace than normal ebikes, at around 30kph average with max speeds of 50kph, that allows me in a 2 million people city (not too big) to keep up with average traffic speeds and reaching time goals for deliveries for motorcycle deliveries, i have ridden 80 thousand kilometers on my first hub motor 500w (48v25a) controller, with only controller issues. After 3 years, then i upgraded to a 1000w motor, that actually failed the gears with about 8 months changed to dual hub motors after, 2x 500w motors, but the windings were changed to allow for a longer power curve to reach 70kph. after upgrading all my bike some times, i have decided to import about 30 kits, and started selling then, than i have started to rent some kits, and had 17 motors under circulation. My first motor, the one from 8 years ago, must have at least 100 thousand kilometers, and is still fine, yes i do renew the grease from time to time, but it is still runing, all the other 17 motors are also fine, that is on the hand of delivery bikes. With all those motors running and me fixing all the issues from all the bikes that came to my workshop, I`m under the impression that is not really correct, 10 to 15 000 miles? And just to be clear I'm a 100kg guy that pedals very little and the city is average gradient is 4%. So 17 500w geared motors, including my old one, running at least 20 days a month for 2 years for at least 50km, its 24 000 km per motor , with 0 issues. All of that not including the dozens of bikes that i have sold and never came back for maintenance. Maybe i`m just lucky to buy from a nice chinese brand of motors... Never bought a bafang, and its a very popular one. Sharing something else, i have fixed lots of gears from motors, most were 350w motors, some changed for metal gears. Never fixed a motor that i have imported and sold. Sorry for bad english btw, and i enjoy your videos!
Many thanks, Gregory for sharing your valuable experience. This really contradicts the information that I found online. If other viewers have a similar experience, I might have to take down this video and make an updated one. I'm noting your comment. BTW, your written English is as good as most English speakers.
The RadRover comes with a tiny torque arm, which looks to me like it might be not much help. I bought a torque arm from Amazon but it wouldn't fit. Howver, even though I added a more powerful controller, the increased acceleration hasn't cause any axle spin out problems so far, after 4000km.
A friend of mine had an older e-bike that the hub motor failed on. It apparently was stored outside and water got inside. He had me take a look at it and I was finally able to open it up and it was solid rust inside. I think it was a direct drive motor. But yes, bicycle drivetrains are vastly overloaded. One of my first jobs, I was working with some large equipment in a paper mill and some of it was chain driven. I found some chain drive design/sizing information and since I was a cyclist, I decided to look up the rating on a bike chain. That tables didn't go down to bike chain size, but I went with the smallest and used some estimates on the torque and speed for a bicycle. The data showed that the bike chain was severely undersized for the torque/tension applied to it in normal use. I was amazed at how long a bike chain does last given the use it's put to. No surprise that e-bike motors are also under high loads as well. I think it's mostly due to the size and weight limits trying to jam all that stuff into a hub or between the pedals.
@@The4Crawler this but *one* reason I’ve thought to incorporate a three to five speed *transmission* into a mid-drive, so that a single sprocket can be used on the rear wheel with 415 (3/16 inch wide rollers) chain used to drive matters. Only better thing I can think of is to go to a fully enclosed chain case with an oil bath of light synthetic gear lube, e.g. 75w-90 - keeps the chain and sprockets lubricated, and keeps out the dirt.
@ that would also work. I have heard, however, that belts need to be fitted well and over-specc’ed if they are to last well - and on long rides, you will want a spare belt or two. Look up flyscout rider (sp?) to see *his* issues with belts - and he’s *not* electrified….
I use a 48 Volt, 500 Watt, Direct Drive/Magnetic Hub motor. Guess what, no gears. Only one moving part. Since the motor has two large magnetic rings/donuts. One stationary, and one that moves when you apply power. Got the set up in 2019, and its still going strong with over 12,000 Miles on it. Sure, it does not have the acceleration as a geared hub motor, and it uses more power, but its a good solid motor. So it all depends on the type of motor.
I've got a very similar setup direct drive with vesc controller keeping it under 750 watts and the motor I chose is "rated" for 1500 and I have statorade in my motor and the lifespan is only limited by bearings, I don't doubt I'll surpass 50000 miles, plus direct drive is easy and turnkey Regen braking. Bottom line is all Chinese ebike motors are built like crap. You get what you pay for and the more mechanical complexity the faster the wear. The bike motors are made with cheap plastic junk chinesium and auto motors are built for way higher power output. It's all a series of intersecting equations. Each buyer/rider ultimately has a different mission profile and will operate them differently. Building custom for serious riders is the only choice. To date I have not seen a single ebike off the shelf that is a reliable transport option. They all have compromises and many are shit frames to begin with.
I got a Magic Pie 5 nine years ago. It's rated at 1kW at 48V but happily does 2kW at 56V. I've used it daily since, and I expect it to outlast me! Only maintenance I ever needed to do was to replace its large bearing after I stupidly jetwashed it and some water got in and it seized. I was able to unseize and still use it with horrible noises while I waited for a new bearing to arrive! Lesson, don't jetwash hub motors directly!
My experience after 10 years is the opposite. First motor, 1000 watt hub drive from GRIN,20,000K+. The wheel bearings were going at this point,motor fine with zero maintenence. Changed to a Bafang 1000w BBSHD and 2 years into this zero maintenance,no issues. So I always buy heavy duty. Underpower a motor rather than overpower a less rated one. More weight though.
I'm _still_ loving our Bafang m620, but I'd steer clear of any of their newer stuff using CANBus: Even _with_ their (proprietary!) adapter, the missing settings mean a lack of fine adjustment that Bafang does not (sort of _cannot)_ do. Which is a shame, because the m620 UART version is an extremely capable, smooth & responsive motor+controller, _once properly calibrated & then configured for a particular bike build._
There are 2 main enemy's of Ebike motors. Heat and water. If water or moisture comes in the motor, it's done. Heat.. Most motors don't have temperature measurement on display, so you don't really know when it's to much heat and to stop. You can always stick heat probe to your mid drive and monitor temperature.Gears melt when it's too hot,motor burns when it's too hot. Motors have short lifespan because people don't educate themself, and push them hard beyond limits.
Really, I need a temp gauge on the motor, the controller, _and_ near every stressed contact point, in the battery etc. I haven't actually observed ours (an m620 geared mid-motor with internally integrated controller within the case), to get warmer than body temp, even on long uphill climbs at max output. The _battery_ (13S6P Samsung 35E 18650 cells) does get slightly warm, & the batteries I've seen using ≤5P 21700 cells, got _hot._ (At present, I'm totally unconvinced that fewer 21700 cells, work as well as equal draw spread across more 18650 cells, at the high draw rates an ebike pulls during a climb/sprint. 21700 cells are mostly a cost-per-KWh savings for manufacturers, from what I see.) The fact that most ebikes lack _any_ temp gauge & have at most one or two temp sensors, is a "tragesty".
That conclusion is a bit of a stretch. The torn up gears are really more analogous to a transmission. The motors themselves seem to be fairly reliable. Unlubricated plastic gears or even powdered metal gears are never going to last like a solid metal gear in an oil bath. At work we ran hundreds of motors 16 hours a day for decades and almost never had a failure of any of the brushless style motors. Brushed motors did fail as did the capacitors on single phase motors but I can only remember one 3 phase motor failure and that was just bad bearings. The rule of thumb was that it isn't the motor that is broken. More likely a belt, wire, sensor, contactor, loss of a phase, loose pully, bad bearing, a jam, stop line, control relay, computer or controller or pretty much everything except the motor itself (except the 1 time it was the motor).
WOW!!! You pretty much covered all the "possibilities". In the "loss of phase" situation, would that be a problem with the Hall-effect sensors, or the controller?
@@DavidCooper-bn6te at work it could be facility power, 1 blown fuse/3, 1 bad contact/3 on the starter, or 1 out of 3 burnt contacts on the twistlock plug. If a forklift was involved a ripped out wire. On a bike I'd guess wiring or the controller that makes the 3 phase for the brushless motor. Does not seem like a sensor would cause the loss of a phase but what do I know? My experience base is more industrial.
There are two problems, one is that the manufacturers try to get maximum power from minimum weight. The other problem is that manufacturers are not interested to built sustainable, repairable bikes as long as customers do not insist on sustainability. My Bosch Classic Motor broke down because of a plastic gear that could have been replaced easily, Bosch refused a repair and suggested a new motor for 650 EUR. I ordered a metal replacement from a small firm and the bike worked for another couple of years. Planned obsolescence in a market that is rapidly evolving is the main driver here, IMHO. My old MTB from the early 90s is still running smoothly, btw.
Bosch are the mostly tightly integrated (state-protected "vertical integration" monopoly tends to do that!), but there are so many gearless Bafang hub motors out there running _wayyyy_ beyond their specified ratings, that I've a hard time taking serious any upstart claims of reliability, & even worse is the outlook for _servicing_ Bosch equipment...
There’s exactly one meta-answer: “Value engineering” They could make an e-bike motor that lasted 500,000 miles if they wanted to, but there’d be no point to it. People don’t ride as far on their bikes as in their cars, so it would be a waste of money to make a bike motor that lasted 150-300,000 miles. No one would pay for it, for the larger gears with hardened metal teeth, oversized hermetically sealed bearings, etc, etc. The goal in any design is to meet the needs of the application as cheaply as possible. People will pay exactly what a product is worth to them and not a penny more: Spend too much on building a motor that lasts 2x longer than the competition and everyone will buy from your competitors. I suspect that people who expect to ride their e-bikes more than 10k miles is a small percentage of the market and those that do are probably willing to spend the money for a direct-drive model.
A delivery rider friend has ridden 25,000+ miles on a Cube Kathmandu gen 3 performance CX, always in turbo and it's and still going strong. It needed a new battery at this mileage though.
A motor or generator running in a low stress situation can last 100+ years with regular cleaning and maintenance. A motor over driven in a harsh environment with plastic gears dies young. No mystery.
I am not pro Mid-drive motors because the chain and gears are not upgraded for the extra torque that the motor produces. The other issue with them is the internal gears which are made light to keep weight down.
Plastic gears in geared ebike motors are not only more silent and cheaper to make than metal ones, but they also are meant to fail first, without destroying other more expensive parts.
My Grin 1000 watt hub went 20,000 K no issues before I changed to a mid drive. Plastic planetary gears.I didnt check them for state of wear but worked fine at that point with no noise.They seem to be very strong and I definitely didnt baby it,a lot of steep cranking up hill.
To avoid burning your controller and/or your motor; When you need torque, give it 100% power while pedaling, if you can not pedal at a comfortable rate, get off your ebike and walk the hill. And alway make sure neither is burning hot. Why ? The MOSFETS in the controller heat-up when they have to reduce the current, let's say at 90% but at 100% there is less restriction so they heat less (if you stay whithin their max current specs). The motor needs to turn, the worst thing you can do is make it stall. The motor will "ask" so much current that something is gonna burn and it can be the motor's stator/rotor wire insulation.
a much simpler way is too simply put a bigger motor than what your controller is made for. Just put a 1000 watts motor with a 500w controller and you are certain to have a very very long lifespan with you motor. I don't understand why only a few people do that. Seeing the very small price difference between a 500 and a 1000w motor, it's really mysterious. It work with every power of course, you can put a 500w motors with a 250w controller and it work fine as well. You can also underpower the motor, take a 48v motor and run it on 36v...
E-bike motors are higher stressed, but as mentioned here in the comments, hours of use may be a more accurate comparison. I have 14,000km on my RadMini and have never had a gear failure, however, I did swap the gears once due to wear on the teeth. The RadMini is modified to be a "rescue bike", and has extra power for towing other bikes (3,200 watts), but default mode is the usual 750 watts/20mph. I did try steel gears, but they were SO loud that I turned around after 200 feet and took them off! I do have brass gears, but I suspect they will only be slightly quieter. My preference would be nylon gears with steel reinforcements. The perfect gears would be double helical (aka herringbone). They can be metal and still be quiet, but companies stay with straight cut or single helical gears for cost savings. Single helical is quiet, but induces side thrust and extra friction. For now, I'm sticking with nylon which is fine unless you do jumps at full throttle. As for why few companies offer direct drive, the answer is cost, weight, and torque. They are larger because they need the extra pole-to-axle length for acceptable torque, they have more magnets, and more coils. This translates into a heavier motor that uses more materials. Now, you CAN have a direct drive that has so much torque it's scary, but those are upper end motors that are expensive and require much more power than a typical e-bike battery can supply. The typical geared hub motor is far lighter, and can be that way because of the 5x torque multiplication provided by the gears.
my first bldc 500w front wheel motor got near 100k miles. 27mph 36v. the only issues were spoke replacement and twi e had to replace the hall sensors(3) in the motor ebay kits are pretty good. more power like 2kw are more durable.
The nylon gears in a hub motor are intended to wear and fail. As you mentioned, replacing them is easy. It is better that they wear rather than the geared housing of the hub (which would basically kill the motor). Labour cost is pretty irrelevant if you fix the bike yourself, which can be done with simple, inexpensive tools (compared to working on a car these days!). I haven't tried direct drive, but I'd like to. I understand they are heavier, and have a good top-end but don't accelerate like the geared motors do.
@oddlytimbotwillison6296 - The cost of the set of 3 plastic gears with the new bearings and cir-clips is less than $10 and since you don't have to disassemble the spokes and rim it only takes about an hour to replace them. Even if you have to purchase a simple bearing puller the cost of replacing the gears and giving them a light coat of white lithium grease is very low. Of course many bike shops will want to sell you a $600 +/- OEM motor rather than replace $10 worth of gears because either way their getting their minimum 1 hour of labor however with the motor they are getting their cut of profit from selling the $600 motor instead of a few dollars profit off selling the $10 gears. Some also want you to believe that the Sun will fall out of the sky and come crashing down on your house if you repair your own bike. In the worst case you can purchase a complete matching kit with a new hub motor already mounted on the rim, controller, throttle, display, wiring harness, PAS sensor, etc, etc for around $200 and have a 100% completely new system on the bike. Best!
All that is very true for those who have the ability and time to perform mechanical work. But for the majority of riders, a motor failure means an expensive visit to the bike shop.
@@RobertBeriault753 It saddens me that so many have become incapable of what the average 10 year old could do when I was a youth. It really should only be the small minority who can't do this for themselves. Of course we could get into a discussion of the difference between those that really can't, self defeatists who due to their own fears falsely believe its beyond them and those that simply won't. I've met very few people who really can't and a great many who self defeat and won't even try though they are totally capable. Sometimes I have them watch and then pull them in to see if I have the order correct etc and then ask them to tighten something, start the threads on some bolts and by the time we're through they've done 75 to 90% of something that thought was impossible for them to do. So many end up pleasantly surprising themselves. Yep, Old age and Treachery indeed! Best!
I have had failure of the ebike controllers and I had determined that with setting it on the highest PAS setting the controller will fail early. It's best to set the controller setting on a medium assist level for longevity because of inadequate component cooling. Also having a spare replacement controller can come in handy as they are relatively inexpensive but a pain in the ass to reconnect all the connections. Carrying a replacement controller and tools with you can aid in not becoming stranded or having to pedal a heavy ebike a long distance without assist back home.
I use a CYC Photon mid-drive with all-metal gears, it has done 4200 miles no problems so far, on-road and off-road. Best efficiency is around 700W but it will go more than twice that power for short bursts. I live in a flat part of the UK. The 9-speed chain works hard so I use immersive hot wax lubrication on a set of three chains and I have zero measurable chain wear so far.
@@ridefast0 yes, 4 parts paraffin wax, 1-3 parts beeswax, some ISO680 synthetic gear oil (plasticizer and added lubricity - adjust to suit: more oil = better lubrication, but more mess) and soon, powdered Teflon. That gets added when I next run the chains. Dedicated (used) crock pot, clean the chains in solvent prior, then let them stew in the hot wax with a slow withdrawal to prevent a waxy buildup. Usually good for 150 miles behind a BBS-HD per chain. I have three also, as waxing chains is time-consuming and three or more takes but a little longer than just one.
ive been pumping close to 3kw through some old un-named chinese hub motor for years with out it even getting warm... 96V at 30A... blown speed controllers, blown batteries... had to replace the motor wires due to dropping it... did a set of bearings as it was rusted out when i found it on a bike dumped in the bushes... but this motor and its windings are bulletproof...
My ebike motor is a bafang hub and I've had it since 2017. I've only had to change out the planetary gears a couple times during its lifespan, and since this part comes from China, I order about five of them so I am never without. The gear set for my motor costs about $45 each, and the gears are plastic, made to wear out sooner than the hub housing runner teeth. It's designed as a sacrificial part for the long-term motor usage, and this cost and tradeoff is something I'm willing to do.
And clearly a major variable in this equation is how the bike is being ridden. I can nearly guarantee you if I look at a fat bike that the chain will have no wear on it whatsoever - the customer who bought that bike just wants an unregistered, cheap, electric motorcycle and the pedals are simply footrests that are there to satisfy a legality, while they blast around town on full throttle. E-bikes that are ridden as bicycles, IE pedaling with some supplemental electrical assist, will probably do much better.
I'm sure that is true for a good number of riders, but I've purchased a fatbike and I ride it properly - human power with electrical assistance. I use it for exercise and I am at the elderly end of the spectrum.
The hypothesis seems to be the wrong question. Engines die due to wear and tear because pistons, cams, and gears rub against each other. Does that same apply to brushless motors?
@@RobertBeriault753 I look forward to another attempt Robert because the core question is still very valuable to ask. One hypothesis I would like to propose is that these BLDCs are driven incorrectly. As a result they overheat and short out after a while. Happy to go further if you're interested in a followup
It is, in fact, not actually about horsepower. The problem is closer related to forces converted to torque and the limits of the material used to transfer that torque. You have already pinpointed that usually the mode of failure is shearing of gear teeth. If the gears were larger and made of a more durable material, combined with more appropriate methods of lubrication, they'd potentially outlive the frame of your ebike. But, as always, it comes down to cost and revenue! If they fail you need new stuff, which means more purchases. Ever heard the term "planned obsolescence"? Yeah, despite all of the greenwashing, here we are! I spent my life working as an engineer, and I guarantee it is possible to design electric drives that would last decades and millions of kilometers.
20000 km on my bbshd mid drive right now, I had 12000 km on my bbso2 when I sold it. I ride at almost max draw most the time, I do go through a lot of batterys though, partly because I cant stand bad voltage sag.
@@RobertBeriault753 an acquaintance asked me what is the best grease for plastic gears, he was thinking of ebikes, I told him any that is almost liquid, because if it is solid, it will spread and soon it will no longer be on the teeth, it is the same with the angle grinder, I add oil into the grease to make it soft so that it at least coats the teeth a little
So do i need to open my motor and see what kind if any grease is on the gears...? And should i plan to replace plastic gears with metal gears and grease..this is my first e bike and i can tell it would be great for traveling hills and long distance...??? 🚲❣️
@@James-cs3hp Hey no worries. Ive built 2 ebikes now over 10 years and 25,000K riding.Plastic gears no problem here(theyre quiet thats why instead of metal).You will hear them failing,never have. I doubt an expert could tell what kind of grease is in there!
@jaaklucas1329 it seems like metal gears would generate more heat..so did you use a hi temp grease on your builds with plastic gears...and would wheel barron grease prematurely ware the plastic gears...
10,000 miles out of a motor could be a reasonable 5 years use for many owners. Since a replacement motor is $300. or so that is still very inexpensive transportation. The replacement plastic gear sets are $50. if you can do the replacement yourself. Direct Drive motors are very much still available but are installed on high output applications making them illegal for road use. Many motors with regen are often direct drive but within legal power limits.
@@daytriker the power input is what determines legality, e.g. you can have a 3 kw nominal motor, and only give it 1 kw of input, e.g. current limit the windings to, say, 18 amps at 52 volts nominal (with, say, a brief surge to a higher level, to help with “emergency acceleration.” (To avoid getting pasted by an irate driver, for example.) An understressed drive train is likely to last longer and give less trouble, all else being equal.
This is a great and interesting topic, Robert. Siemens, Germany started electric motor building about 150 years ago. Some of them lasted extremely long. But the questions are: How big are the relations weight to move, speed, watts and how big and heavy the motor can be? Other question: Does a small motor for a moped that runs on gas last longer in comparison to an e-bike motor? Which e-bike motor brand lasts the longest? Experiences with Bafang middrives are good. And these motors can be repaired. Last Bosch longer? Are MAC hubmotors from E-Bikes, Vancouver, Canada the best?
" how big and heavy the motor can be" is the key here. Think old washing machine motor, never dies because its never overtaxed. Apply this idea to your Ebike. Big motor like a BBSHD and 48volt. It will power up really well. Of course, thats DIY and not for everyone.Local restrictions usually mean bikes have underpowered hub motors.
I built my own conversion using a 750 watt Bafang BB drive. This turns an Alpine 8 speed internal hub. 8 years in and No problems yet. A BB drive running thru a multi speed hub allows you to make sure you are using the motor at its optimum speed range for any terrain. 700 watts climbing a 20% grade in 2nd, to 700 watts running level in 8th gear. Hub motors cook themselves at anything other than the one speed they are most efficient at. Built on a formerly belt drive Spot Ajax- the entire bike, with rack, 41 lbs. I carry 50 lbs of groceries in panniers up steep grades and don’t even know it’s there.
Justin Lemire-Elmore of Grin Technologies often says if the direct drive hub motors don't break in the first couple thousand miles, they effectively will last the life of the bike. they either break early, or very very late
As a full time ebike mechanic I would say that anecdotally this seems very true and also somewhat applicable to generic and budget ebike parts in general: I would estimate 80-90% of catastrophic failures of motors, screens and controllers is either unreasonably fast (say a month or less) or takes years and years and many thousands of miles. Geared motors specifically do indeed seem to have a lifespan of around 10,000 miles, with gear replacement required every 3k on average.
@@lezbriddon i've been replacing bearing grease with marine grease lately. it doesn't flow as well, but it's very waterproof. i think this is a good idea to do even to a new set of bearings to make them last longer. time will tell wheter there's anything to regret about it
I clicked out of curiosity about ebike motors. I stayed because it was an excellent RUclips video. Well argued hypothesis, I can see YT getting behind this video and pushing it with suggestion and giving it LOTS of traction. Job well done.
i have a direct drive hub motor that has been through 3 or 4 bikes across 2 owners, it is used with almost 10x its rated power. zero maintenance in the past 10 years. The bikes and wheels have fallen apart around the motor, but the motor keeps going. the motor is used mainly in the winter where there is a lot of snow and cooling.
The north American tendency for ebikes to be more widely used as lightweight electric motorcycles, compared to the Europeans having legislation that limits ebikes to pedal assist (no hand throttles) plays a big factor, too. I'm legally allowed a throttle in Australia (provided I power limit my bike to 200w, it's 250w at 5/5 boost, so a legal maximum boost of 4/5 on throttle operation) but I only use a motor because of heart condition. I've been a lifetime "dry bike" rider prior to this. So, I use pedal assist only to keep my heart rate below my medically prescribed 128BPM (I'm a disco song ) and I have to pedal to make the motor draw current from the battery. I rarely take my controller above 3/5 boost, AKA 150w, so the motor never gets anywhere near as hot as a throttle controlled bike. So there's the other big advantage of pedal assist. Longevity, for the motor, controller and battery. Not to mention, retaining or building fitness. A lifetime of cycling for transport is what saved my life when I had my heart attack 4 years ago, not my opinion, my cardiologist's. The mobile intensive care paramedic riding in the back of the ambulance with me called it a "widowmaker" and was "honest" about my slim odds, so I am determined to keep pedalling for as long as I can. That it keeps the bike going longer, that's a bonus ;-)
yeah, the rules are funny with the power assist/pedelec variation... usual bureaucracy... the period before they banned the ICE was amusing... it had always been 30cc/30kmh. then they dropped the capacity limit... then they banned them altogether... lol, i dont give a hoot where i live, rural area... and i show some restraint and consideration, i like to think. problem with the rules is that theyre the same within one state... from tibooburra to griffith, broken hill to strawberry hills... you arent hurting anyone out in woop woop on empty roads where you might see one car in an hour... the problem is the kids and or bogans in greystanes and wentworth that ride with no brakes, no helmets, on the wrong side of the road, dont care about traffic lights or road rules, fail to maintain situational awareness, ride across busy main roads without looking, ride through shopping malls and down footpaths and hurling abuse at pedestrians, all whilst holding a phone in one hand and a boom box or VB in the other... and dont get me started on the ubereats guys with their illegal mopeds in sydney areas that we turn a blind eye to... or the scooter boys that failed to look up the rules... scooters are illegal. if it was built to primarily rely on the motor, its a moped. the rules state quite clearly... a BICYCLE fitted with motor. not "small motorcycle with rudimentary and superfluous pedals that can perform just as well with the chain removed"
@@paradiselost9946 kids will be kids. In a few years they'll be doing the equivalent kinds of stupid in cars. I'd rather people didn't break road rules, but if I had to choose, I'd rather people were stupid on a bicycle than aggressive in a car. A stupid cyclist is only likely to kill themself, stupids in cars kill 3 people a day in Australia.
Comparing an Ebike with a car does not make much sense, like comparing a car with a tractor or a lorry. An Ebike should be compared with a moped or mofa with 50cc IC engine. Because these vehicles have the same purpose.
@RobertBeriault753 roughly about 10 years. Not that many miles though, I hardly ride it anymore. I'd guess about 7k miles. The batteries died multiple times, and replacements were too expensivem
What do you mean, these things were suppose to last forever maintenance free. That's what the salesman told me. I didn't buy, because I felt suspicious.
Well something like a QS205 motor will run over 100,000 miles no problem. Crack it open and I promise it'll smell brand new too, so long as the correct voltage is being run through the motor. Budget ebikes are designed to fail if you ask me, just like common smart phones.
Great analysis, sir! I would love to see the comparison with electric cars and with an in between option like electric motorcycles, just to see if your hypothesis is still valid.
Your math doesn't necessarily prove your hypothesis, but it supports it. In order to prove your hypothesis, you would have to see if motor failiures are more frequent on bikes that carry heavier loads.
2 important issues: wrong lube on plastic gears and moisture entry into the motor housing. Use lithium based lube, best is aeroplane grease. And a pressure equalising valve so that when the motor cools it doesn't inhale wet air.
I better stay at my non-ebike. Until today 80000 km. Only parts to be more or less regularly changed: bottom bracket, chain, cassette, pedals, chainrings, brake shoes.
And tires. You definitely need tires after a few thousand miles (or less!) On each bike, even the one salvaged from an alleyway & rolling on used rubber, I end up spending more on tires than anything else.
@@prophetzarquon Tires are cheap though, no big deal changing every few k miles, but it's a bit more involved with a heavy rear hub motor and torque arms to deal with.
If you can short the windings with a direct drive hub motor then surely it would be far worse for a mid-drive motor or geared hub motor as direct drive hub motors are large and heavy and disappate heat very well indeed. In fact a basic direct drive motor you buy in a 500W kit could be used probably all the way up to 3000W. Direct drive don't have a lot of torque due to lack of gears so typically 30-40Nm, they are the weakest of all motor types for torque for the same wattage. I'm sure I read of someone getting 60K out of one without any issues at all and I saw a video on Grin technology where a extremely well used direct drive motor was restored to full functionality very cheaply likely hall sensors or bearings ready for another 8 years or so. I think direct drive is a great value option especially with regen and the savings to brake pads.
Here is the thing about magnets: Heat them up to a certain point, and no amount of immediate cooling will return them to their original strength. I wound a few hundred RC motor of various turns and wire gauges combined with different size propellers and if you over prop just once and heat up the magnets you might as well throw it out. lol Amperage goes up fast and so does the heat.
@@RobertBeriault753 Its easy to try. Get a magnet to just barely hold the weight of any object. Heat it up so it's too hot to touch then try again after it has cooled. When I first thought about cars going Electric I imagined an industry of people rebuilding motors but then imagined it would be too expensive but all these motors can be rebuilt as new. Maybe someday it will be feasible
Geared hub motors have more torque for starts & hills & weigh much less. Direct drive motors will go faster on level ground but aren't as quick off the line than a geared hub motor. Nylon gear sets are like $6 online & aren't that hard to install if buying the few proper tools needed. Ebike motors biggest enemy is overheating so give them a few minutes to cool every 20 - 30 minutes when the hub gets to hot to touch or get a temp gauge to monitor.
Thank you for going through this exercise in trying to support why ebike motors don't last. There's probably a few more important reasons. First, ebikes are far from a mature technology, there are still many manufacturers who spend very little on deep engineering related to anything other than watts and price. The main reasons are there isn't a big incentive to study failure root causes and addressing them in a nascent technology that's primarily driven by price and watts. Since majority of manufacturers are Chinese specialty manufacturers, who have no incentive to develop high quality, it's unlikely longevity of drivetrains will improve across the market.
Huge number of failure points with mid-drive motors including tons of bearings, cogs and sometimes belts plus you have the riders own power directly feeding into it and the weight of the rider when out of the saddle. Also many mid-drive ebikes are highly proprietary so often they become uneconomic to repair due to incredibly high repair prices. They also wear down the drivetrain much faster, typically 3x that of a standard bike (depends on power of course). Typically a proprietary mid-drive ebike has frame, motor and battery tied together so any failure of one component means the ebike could be uneconomic to repair. It's not just about reliability but how the fault can be resolved. A hub motor is relatively easy to repair, a hub controller relatively easy to replace and of course many hub motor ebikes have open standards for the battery. If you are looking for an ebike for long road rides and value surely if it has to be a hub motor. However if you are looking for a e-mountain bike then mid-drive typically makes more sense. Some of the mid-drive motors for city bikes are very low power and therefore only offer light assistance and don't accelerate drivetrain wear that much wear as a e-mountain bike mid-drive motor could have much more power and typically won't be as reliable. Despite their 250W rating here in Europe a 250W e-mountain bike with a mid-drive motor is something like 23A x 42V maximum power which is over 900W maximum power. The 250W rating makes no sense but seems to be a way of restricting imports from China more than anything else so often European ebikes are higher wattage. The Chinese are learning how the legislation works and now sell many 750W ebikes certified as 250W but they still aren't typically as powerful as European e-mountain bikes. If you want reliability above everything else then direct drive, if you want a ebike ideal for long rides and value then a geared hub motor but if you want something super torquey, well balanced and ideal for off-road riding then mid-drive.
💯 *^* This. "250W" is (thankfully) mostly a myth created by workaround labeling; mid-drive offers (vastly) superior weight distribution, but increases drivetrain wear; geared hub motors offer good range & decent value, despite bad weight distro + no regen & shorter life than gearless; gearless hub motors are the simplest (& allow a bit of regen!) but are a _lot_ of unsprung mass to go knocking around on a rocky trail.
@@prophetzarquon Yeah there is no give in a direct drive motor wheel, the spokes are so short so unless you have thick tyres they can be uncomfortable. If you have a low power direct drive setup then I personally think they are better on the front and if you have regen you need strong steel forks as the motor wants to turn the axle both ways depending on whether its assisting or doing regen. I can't imagine a worst e-mountain bike than one with a direct drive hub motor. The totally wrong solution for that. A small geared hub motor I guess would be somewhere in the middle. I have a simplistic view, hub motors for the road, mid-drive for off-road.
I bought a Bafang Mid motor 5 or 6 years ago. It was the most powerful at that time and the most expensive but it still works great today. I use it at least 5 days a week in every weather have done almost 15000 km in these years and I had no problem with the actual motor. Of course I had to change parts on the bike like chain and gears but the motor never had anything.
I'm using the bafang BBS02B 750W for 5 years now. The only lesson important for everybody. Grease the bearings . Factory greasing is feeble. Good for 3000km. After that, you get squeeks. And soon after that, the motor electronics will overload due friction and die.
@RobertBeriault753 I have 2 of the same ones. Instant parts if I need them, and 2 batteries, actually 3 batteries now. I can carry the extra batteries for a longer range. Merry Christmas.
I suspect the motor/gearbox weight to power ratio, would be a more reliable indicator of design stress. Also, the price of an overhaul or total replacement is quite different.
Ours were cheap hub ebay conversion kits, they have lasted years. i have my original 2012 direct drive kit, i'm on a daily direct drive 3yr old kit and wifes is hub geared drive at 2yrs (replaced after theft) and she rides it daily for the work commute. its about to fail on its cheap internal bearings/cogs, they cost a few $ so they will be replaced.
I think e-bikes are great. But if you are 50+ years, I'll recommend to let a doctor examine your bones - if the bones are weak, a simple fall on the bike, can be quite serious. Here in Denmark, there are some statistics, suggesting the importance of this.
How do mid drive motors benefit from the gear system of the bike? With the exception of mountain bikes (true mountain bikes), bicycle drive trains are set up for legs, not motors and have no under drive gear. All of the gears in most bicycle drive trains are overdrive gears. As I understand it, mostly from every electric motor I have ever seen, electric motors like to spin fast and be geared down for torque multiplication. Like it will drive a load via a belt with a much larger pulley than the one on the motor. The high speed of the motor is reduced and the torque is multiplied. Many electric motors have cooling fans on the main shaft for cooling. This is another reason they like to go fast. Bicycle drive trains are over drive with torque division, not multiplication. My hybrid bike has 3 chain rings in the front, 28, 38 and 48 with 7 in the rear going from 11 to 28. The lowest gear is 1:1 (28 teeth on the chain ring and 28 teeth on the cassette cog) The highest gear is 1:4 where the wheel spins 4 times for every rotation of the crank. There are no under drive gear ratios. Even if the drive train was optimized for motors, there is no guarantee any user will ever have it in the optimal gear for the load. There is no information on any e-bike headset that gives the motor RPM, iow, no tachometer. Without such information, a cyclist would not have enough information to know what gear his drive train should be in.
I don't understand all of what you said, but all I know from experience with a mid drive is that if you start up from a full stop in high gear, the motor will be very sluggish and you know you're labouring it. Is that what you're saying?
@@RobertBeriault753 Not really. What I'm saying is most applications of electric motors involve gearing down the motor. Like you put a 4" pulley on the motor and an 8" pulley on the load connected with a drive belt. This is called torque multiplication. It reduces the speed the load will turn out, but increases the torque. Like if your electric motor puts out 10footpounds of torque, but you run a belt to the load with a pulley that is 4 times the diameter of the pulley on the motor shaft, you get 40 pounds of torque at the load, but at the expense of running at 1/4th the speed. (this example would not be a bike, it's just for the purposes of illustration). With the exception of mountain bikes which do generally have at least 1 or 2 under-drive gears (reduction as opposed to multiplication), most bicycles do not have that, they have the opposite. There is almost always a larger diameter sprocket on the drive end (the cranks) and a smaller diameter gear at the driven end (the cog on the wheel). An example would be a 28 tooth crank (the pedal side) and a 14 tooth on the wheel side. This means a single turn of the crank will turn the wheel twice. In just about every other application with an electric motor, it does the opposite of a bicycle drive train. This is because electric motors like to spin fast. AFAIK, the main advantages of having a bottom bracket (mid drive) e-bike motor is because it puts the weight of the motor in the lowest point of the bike. It also reduces unsprung weight on bikes with rear suspensions and allows for stronger and higher quality rear wheel hubs. They also tend to be way more expensive and with better build quality. Chong's hub motors simply cannot compete with Bosch or Shimano. They can charge more money and so they can build a higher quality motor.
By way of example, the m620's internal reduction gearing leaves it with _plenty_ of power handling but a relatively narrow output-shaft RPM range. (Even moreso, for the m630 cargo motor.) One result is that low-speed riding must either be done at significantly higher cadence & lower pedal force than usual, in an earlier\easier gear, or else risk running the motor at low RPM under load (which is bad for them). Speaking very loosely, a given voltage can produce a given RPM, while the amperage required to reach that RPM increases with load: Pumping more amperage through a motor without letting it rotate faster, increases its internal resistance & waste heat. Hence, I'm better off sticking to lower-load (higher-RPM, higher cadence) gears, than I would otherwise prefer, simply because the ratio of motor-RPM per pedal crank, is not _quite_ as high as I (or the motor) would like.
@@prophetzarquon The problem with internal gearing on a mid drive motor is you are multiplying the inefficiencies. Now instead of having 1 drive train introducing inefficiencies, you have two (the one on the bike and the one in the motor). I'm sure there are some advantages, like low center of gravity and less unsprung weight, to a mid drive motor. But using the bike's drivetrain is not one of them.
An interesting point. Some viewers commented that running a motor at a lower wattage would allow it to last longer. So maybe European bicycle mechanics get to replace fewer motors than American ones.
The legislation & labeling state a maximum of 250W, but check the real world tests & you'll see that brief peaks around 1100-1500W are typical of most name-brand "250W" ebikes. Not surprising, since even average sized non-pro riders exceed 1000W on a sprint, & above average sized humans use more than 250W just climbing stairs.
I do not want to be that guy and I am not trolling but the first thing I was taught in terms of engines and Motors is that they are both completely different ,an engine makes its power in itself and a motor gets its power from outside. I suspect that we are talking about the compression and the spark plugs and the cylinders being better tuned and a motor being very cheap and not designed for longevity
Inaccurate conclusion about comparing vehicle to e-bike. Generally, engine with higher horsepower has more failure-point than engine with smaller horsepower. For example, larger ICE vehicle produces more heat and long cylinder-head are more likely to bend/warp at high temperature, this condition is a major damage that require overhaul, while small engine produce less heat and simultaneously smaller dimension that less likely to warp/bend at high temperature. Additionally, ebike lack cooling and the gears are not immersed in liquid unlike a motorcycle, so basically ebike's shorter lifespan is on purpose.
As for unit conversions - there are different definitions of the unit in use around the world. The "imperial horsepower" is approx. 745.7W so close to your value of 746. The metric horsepower is 735.49885W some sites claim 1hp is exactly 750W. Both definitions are based on the power ot takes to raise a certain mass by a certain distance on the surface of earth. Unfortunateky gravity isn't quite the same everywjere and of xourse the weights and distances used in the two definitions are different. Worse, there are numerous other definitions. The two I mentioned above are just the primary ones still in use today. Basically, the horsepower unit is a mess and should die. After all the unit largely got popularized by the steam engine inventor James Watt forarketing purposes. Combustion engines tend to be heavy due to having to resist the very high internal pressure in cylinders. The reciprocating forces on crank shafts are also very high. With electric.motors oft bearings are the weak point. Also windings which are relatively thin electrical copper are exposed to repeated hearing-cooling cycles, experience forces though the magnetic field.amd vibration which wears them down. Also brushes. I used to work for a pumped storage company. The copper windings.o their motors/generators wear down over the decades. Every once in a while a sample from a winding is taken during major overhaul and examined in a lab. They last long but not forever. But some of these machines are now over 90 years old, still in ise and continie to be maintainable and repairable. But they were not designed as cheap mass products and nobody cares that maintenance requires a 150t crane. Very much unlike a rbike motor.
All six of my eMTB’s are 2nd hand mid drives Bosch powered eBay special, Cube, Haibike Sduro Hard 7 Haibike SD 9 Merida 120 Shimano Most troublesome has been the Shimano eX 8000 motor and separately, controller failure after 2,500 m E8010 battery failure after 2,000m Bosch CX excellent apart from minor controller problems, one has over 10,000 miles, all five batteries OK except one battery BMS failed after 10,000 miles Yamaha - difficult finding service agents in Scotland for my 3 Haibikes - 2k to 4,000 miles trouble free - all 3 batteries ok. After 5k one six yr old controller has gone rogue - causing motor runaway (only new eMountain Bike KTM Macina Lycan was stolen after 3k)
It's surprising that you've had three with controller problems and a battery failure after 2000 miles. When we compare the need for servicing to cars, ebikes are a lot of trouble. But they're fun.😉
That's the long way around it. Comparing ebikes to cars is like Comparing apples and oranges. Ebikes are made with the minimum power one needs. Therefore, the motor is working at its max quite often. Car motors rarely work anywhere near its max. So, what IC engine is running at max most of the time? A seadoo. With a 2 stroke, the engine lasts 300 hours. With a 4 stroke, it could last 500 hours. 500 hours X 35 KM/H speed limit = 17,500 km. The two motors, treated equally, lasts the same amount of time/distance.
You want the plastic gears to be the weakest point and to fail first. When metal gears go, they can cause catastrophic irreversible damage in the wheel hub. The ring gear is pressed into the hub and significantly more difficult to fix. The plastic gears can be taken off and replaced easily
Keep it dry, clean and lubricate nylon gears every year, don't use full throttle to pull away,I do this and have 20,000 on my 500watt hub drive , only thing I have done is change the bearings,like a car engine if you look after it then there is a good chance it will last.
My bafang moror just exeeded 20.000 km and still running smooth. It also depends on the force it has to delever. max force = 250 W (legal) max speed = 25km/h (legal)
I have two bafang 250 hub motors. One has 17,000km and one 12,000km. I average 29kph over flattish terrain riding on full power. Both motors are fine. One battery got weak after about 350 charging cycles so was replaced.
Same situation (250W, 25km/h). Similiar experience (48.000 km in 4,5 years), no bafang motor, 95% used in flat terrain, runs smooth but sometimes problem with the controler
Another viable answer as to why car engines last so much longer than ebike motors is that a car engine costs 10k and has a pressurized oil system and requires reasonable oil change intervals while ebike motors average about 100 dollars. Large, expensive industrial electric motors work for decades doing hard work. But they are very expensive up front. Another explanation is they are building it to the expected battery life. If you get around 30 miles to the charge, 500 cycles equals 15k miles. So just like building a million mile EV battery is massive overkill (cars do not last a million miles. At 13k miles a year on average for a US driver, it would take 76 years to reach a million miles) in relation to the life of the car, building an ebike motor that will long out last the battery is also a bit overkill. Most low end e-bikes will be thrown away when the battery wears out. Another thing is that the bicycle manufacturers professional group put out a report saying the average bicycle sold at a big box store will accumulate an average of 60 miles before it ends up in the dump. While a smallish number of ebike users will put a lot of miles on their ebikes commuting to work or something, a large number will not. They will never reach 10-15k miles. They will be lucky if they put 1000 miles on their e-bike.
The gears are like 7 bucks. The problem is nobody considers before buying. That being said you can get a ton of miles out of a gear motor if you don't start messing around with your amps. I'm not really good at the conversion but if you're getting 7000 miles out of a $200 motor you're doing good! I would say batteries are a bigger expense what is your battery I'm doing after 11,000 kilometers?
True. The batteries are likely to give trouble before the motor, and the batteries can be harder to work on! (Personal experience with battery, hub motor, and mid-drive.) Note: regular application of a suitable grease, e.g. Mobil-28 aircraft grease, to the gears seems to help with both durability *AND* noise…
Ten years Im on my second battery. I notice my new laptop and new phone have adaptive charging, 20 to 80% for long battery life. If you have a big pack on your ebike this is the way to go.But normally we are squeezing everything out of an ebike pack for range.Which Ive done so Im torn here..
@jaaklucas1329 I might fully charge mine once every 10 charges. Just to balance the cells I heard it's more healthy that way for them but I messed up yesterday I got a new battery and I was going to go for a ride, so I charged it all the way and it's raining super hard. Now I'm just waiting for a break so I can ride it around the block a couple times to use some of the charge
I think its mostly bearings and sealings; at least as far as direct drive is concerned. You can spend a lot on those to get something good; but its not something your average customer will pay any attention to when making their buying decision, so you often end up with crap. But even with good bearings; you are still having your motor sit one bearing away from the mud splashing about. As long as you keep the seals and bearings intact (and your setup is temperature limited), a direct drive ebike motor can run essentially forever though.
brushed motors would last 10x longer because you can easily replace brushes. Brushed motors can be rebuilt by a hs student in a hour with less than $100 of common parts. Common brushed motors like alternators outlive cars as long as you know how to replace the wear parts. We sell rebuild kits for brushed motors at maniac electric :)
I just sold my 2005 Golf TDI with 490,000 km and still running. I figure that it will easily get to 600,000 km. The guy that bought it was a mechanic and rust was not an issue. He bought it because of the fuel efficiency, I was still getting 5l/100km.
When you initially referred to size of motor I thought you were talking about physical size rather than power rating. Physical size does matter because it effect ability to dissipate heat (if your motor was physically larger could it have reduced the likelihood of the gears melting?). The other issue not mentioned is the far more comprehensive regular services a car gets compared to an eBike motor. If there had been problems with a belt in the car motor part way through the expected lifespan of the car motor that could have been fixed without replacing the entire engine; yet when your eBike motor gears got worn out it was seen as end of life for that motor.
I should have mentioned that a motor with a heavy mass has more ability to absorb and dissipate heat, which should have a protecting effect for the susceptible components like gears and electrical parts. For can engines, it's so easy to change the oil.
A motor hasn't really failed if you simply need to replace a few cheap and readily available parts. These gears can often cost just a few dollars for a full set.
Its a bit of a tricky subject , a good one though , because there are just so many variables, all machines be it electric motors or car engines are not always built to the same quality IE: how long is a piece of string. Then you have how much load they are pulling , as well as how they are maintained . Even the climate they are operating in can have a bearing on life expectancy especially with electric motors which do not like excessive heat. Even how the person uses the gears if it has them , and or how much the person assists the motor with pedal power can make a difference. Cars engines these days are mostly autos which detect load and automatically change ratios which not only benefits the longevity of the engine but gives optimal fuel usage , because electric motors with no gears cannot reduce the strain on them , all they can do is add more electricity or reduce it which is not the best. This is another reason why heavy diesel commercial vehicles can last a million miles if well used and well maintained. And as you pointed out , small motors under severe load for longer periods are very likely to have a much shorter life span. I have a heavy trike with motor assist , I chose a big heavy duty mid drive motor , to pull my big carcass and heavy trike , mines a mid drive motor, and I still try and use the gears so as to not make it work too hard , particularly on hills . Hills are another thing than can overheat e bike motors if pushed hard shortening their service life.
Comparing mileage isn't really appropriate, as cars are designed to go on long trips. E-bikes would be much more favorable if you compare HOURS used. That's how you measure airplane usage, racing motor usage, etc.
My Ebike is now 14 years old. With the first Motor and i even have the first battery. A second battery i bought after 5 years. But the first still runs. My last combustine car engine lasted only 140.000 km and then it was game over. Electric cars lasts a lot more, and even tha batteries last for 300.000-600.000 km till it is at 80% capacity
There are a lot of variables when it comes to E bikes. How often it's used, the weight of the person using it. How often you use it at higher speeds without any pedal assistance etc. Starting and stopping frequently can't help the motor either in a city setting. But I think the main one is just plain old weight. An average person weighing about 150lbs vs either an over weight or some one carrying a heavy load making it weigh over 200lbs+ put massively different strain on the bike.
My ebike has hybrid metal + plastic gears in the hub. Maybe a little more noisy, but certainly not "loud". Allegedly they should last longer than straight nylon gears.
I have seen these, I do plenty of off road and jumping on my ebike. Do you also? I was thinking about these hyrbid gears in copper and nylon. Have you noticed any more strength when doing wheelies? I like to wheelie too and am worried about my only nylon gears.
Chances are you will not have to replace the entire motor, but if you have the geared version, you will have to replace the gears which isn't that hard to do.
@@MrCyclist oh, and take the motor apart every so often to check matters - and put some grease on the gears, then. Mobil-28 (aircraft grease) is said to be good. I have used this in mine. Really helps keep things *quiet.*
When it comes to cars, most Japanese cars will make it to 300K miles with no major issues. Domestic cars seem to be between 100-200K miles depending on brand and other factors. I once had a Honda Civic that was at 300K miles when i sold it. Still ran great. It used a bit of oil but it ran and drive and still had decent power. During its lifetime, to the best of my knowledge, no major repairs of the engine or transmission. 1989 model year. I have a Nissan 720 pickup with about 300K miles on it. Runs great. Only real issues were some electrical wire frays, body rust, and radiator corrosion. 1985 model year. Then there was the time I had Ford Focus (forgot the year model). It had a major ECU issue at 90K miles. Major suspension issues at around 100K miles. Piece of junk.
I've seen metal clad plastic gears...not sure if they help though. The comparison with cars works out ok, but a comparison with ebikes with different power motors probably won't support that argument. Here in Australia, 250W (1/3hp) is the maximum legal power, so by your reckoning these should last 1/3 of the equivalent 1 hp bikes from the US. I'd argue that less power with the same drive system should make Australian ebike motors last longer.
Thanks. I guess you just need to factor in replacing the plastic gears at a set mileage, before they go. And really the shop / manufacturer should tell you this.
It's gonna depend a _lot_ more on how\where you ride, than how many miles. A mile on a rocky trail & a mile on a paved road, are simply not comparable. People often _say_ that over 15KpH, aero rules, but in reality, *_terrain_* is the undisputed king, when it comes to limitations like speed, range, & wear & tear.
Regarding the comparison of e-cars with e-bikes. I'm looking forward to direct drive hubmotors in cars. I believe elimination of gears in cars will eliminate almost all moving parts, including possibly brakes. Steering will probably remain the most mechanically complex parts. Also one thing you didn't mention is the efficiency gain with direct drive motors. Gears are rather inefficient in comparison to direct drive. Bring on AWD direct drive hub motors in cars. Economy cars can also be built with 2WD for cost savings.
Robert... I have the bafang BBSHD 1000w mid-drive on my recumbent trike... Before installing it i opened up the plate under the Sprocket.. that revealed the Reduction Gear... At the factory they put cheap grease.. So I packed "Black" "Moly grease with lithium 2 ".. The moly grease must be the black grease. and it must be the lithium 2.. this protects the plastic gears in the motor.. This will prolong the motor life.. by making the motor run more cool,smoother and faster.. A faster spinning motor with lower torque will keep it cool and preserve the motor.. I now have over 14k miles on my trike.. and every year, i have more of the black Moly grease with lithium packed in the gears.. My motor runs quiet and smooth. Lower gear, higher power is the way to go.. Lugging down a motor will cause the controller to burn out or cause the motor to fail. I always run lower gear higher power.. and that also increases my range.. Lugged down over burdened motors suck up Watts and lower range while causing damage to an electric motor.. PEACE
Yeah I just put 17,000 miles on my Juiced Rip current S... Zero problems. Zero maintenance rides like new Oh and if the motor takes her s*** I'll replace it for 400 bucks. Yeah that
@@elisfsharri ATF is automatic transmission fluid. In car transmissions electronic actuators and open wiring connectors have been used for decades. And work well.
I'm noticing that nobody who raves about their direct-drive motor ever mentions the brand of the e-bike or company who makes the motor. C'mon guys. We want to know!
Right. Cars aren't used in a manner that makes them work as hard as bike motors. The majority of the time they're working at a fraction of their capacity.
It's why engines on 50cc scooters have a short service intervals. There's a lot being asked of a 1 1/2 inch diameter piston to carry the weight of the bike, it's rider, and the rider's cargo (even more demanding on 4 strokes). Couple it with them being speed governed often with a restrictor in the CVT to limit the gear range, those tiny engine are constantly running at around 7500 RPM just to do their legal speed limit (Often 35 MPH). It why I took the restrictor out of one of my scooters because it felt like I was about to blow the motor just to do 35 MPH.
The ebikes that I have owned have waterproof connections and have never had a problem in the rain, even when they sat all night in a raging storm. But if you never expose your bike to water, you're sure not to have moisture issues. As for riding easy, that will allow the motor to live a longer, happy life. Thanks for your comment.
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Hi, let me share a bit of experience, i have a very small business in brazil, I have personally ridden a ebike for 4 years, doing deliveries, riding on a a higher speed pace than normal ebikes, at around 30kph average with max speeds of 50kph, that allows me in a 2 million people city (not too big) to keep up with average traffic speeds and reaching time goals for deliveries for motorcycle deliveries, i have ridden 80 thousand kilometers on my first hub motor 500w (48v25a) controller, with only controller issues. After 3 years, then i upgraded to a 1000w motor, that actually failed the gears with about 8 months changed to dual hub motors after, 2x 500w motors, but the windings were changed to allow for a longer power curve to reach 70kph. after upgrading all my bike some times, i have decided to import about 30 kits, and started selling then, than i have started to rent some kits, and had 17 motors under circulation.
My first motor, the one from 8 years ago, must have at least 100 thousand kilometers, and is still fine, yes i do renew the grease from time to time, but it is still runing, all the other 17 motors are also fine, that is on the hand of delivery bikes. With all those motors running and me fixing all the issues from all the bikes that came to my workshop, I`m under the impression that is not really correct, 10 to 15 000 miles? And just to be clear I'm a 100kg guy that pedals very little and the city is average gradient is 4%.
So 17 500w geared motors, including my old one, running at least 20 days a month for 2 years for at least 50km, its 24 000 km per motor , with 0 issues. All of that not including the dozens of bikes that i have sold and never came back for maintenance.
Maybe i`m just lucky to buy from a nice chinese brand of motors... Never bought a bafang, and its a very popular one.
Sharing something else, i have fixed lots of gears from motors, most were 350w motors, some changed for metal gears. Never fixed a motor that i have imported and sold.
Sorry for bad english btw, and i enjoy your videos!
Many thanks, Gregory for sharing your valuable experience. This really contradicts the information that I found online. If other viewers have a similar experience, I might have to take down this video and make an updated one. I'm noting your comment. BTW, your written English is as good as most English speakers.
Do you fit torque arms to your electric bikes?
The RadRover comes with a tiny torque arm, which looks to me like it might be not much help. I bought a torque arm from Amazon but it wouldn't fit. Howver, even though I added a more powerful controller, the increased acceleration hasn't cause any axle spin out problems so far, after 4000km.
@@RobertBeriault753 I'd urge you to leave the video up. Look at the incredible comments that help us all understand e-bike motors. This is fantastic!
A friend of mine had an older e-bike that the hub motor failed on. It apparently was stored outside and water got inside. He had me take a look at it and I was finally able to open it up and it was solid rust inside. I think it was a direct drive motor.
But yes, bicycle drivetrains are vastly overloaded. One of my first jobs, I was working with some large equipment in a paper mill and some of it was chain driven. I found some chain drive design/sizing information and since I was a cyclist, I decided to look up the rating on a bike chain. That tables didn't go down to bike chain size, but I went with the smallest and used some estimates on the torque and speed for a bicycle. The data showed that the bike chain was severely undersized for the torque/tension applied to it in normal use. I was amazed at how long a bike chain does last given the use it's put to. No surprise that e-bike motors are also under high loads as well. I think it's mostly due to the size and weight limits trying to jam all that stuff into a hub or between the pedals.
Good point. Thanks for sharing.
@@The4Crawler this but *one* reason I’ve thought to incorporate a three to five speed *transmission* into a mid-drive, so that a single sprocket can be used on the rear wheel with 415 (3/16 inch wide rollers) chain used to drive matters.
Only better thing I can think of is to go to a fully enclosed chain case with an oil bath of light synthetic gear lube, e.g. 75w-90 - keeps the chain and sprockets lubricated, and keeps out the dirt.
@@dennisyoung4631 what about a belt drive ?
@ that would also work.
I have heard, however, that belts need to be fitted well and over-specc’ed if they are to last well - and on long rides, you will want a spare belt or two.
Look up flyscout rider (sp?) to see *his* issues with belts - and he’s *not* electrified….
I use a 48 Volt, 500 Watt, Direct Drive/Magnetic Hub motor. Guess what, no gears. Only one moving part. Since the motor has two large magnetic rings/donuts. One stationary, and one that moves when you apply power. Got the set up in 2019, and its still going strong with over 12,000 Miles on it. Sure, it does not have the acceleration as a geared hub motor, and it uses more power, but its a good solid motor. So it all depends on the type of motor.
Thanks for you input. The slight disadvantages you mention will be forgiven when you get many more years of trouble-free service.
I have a Nine Continent motor front hub from 2011 that has over 70,000 kilometers. It is a stator Rotar direct drive motor.
I've got a very similar setup direct drive with vesc controller keeping it under 750 watts and the motor I chose is "rated" for 1500 and I have statorade in my motor and the lifespan is only limited by bearings, I don't doubt I'll surpass 50000 miles, plus direct drive is easy and turnkey Regen braking. Bottom line is all Chinese ebike motors are built like crap. You get what you pay for and the more mechanical complexity the faster the wear. The bike motors are made with cheap plastic junk chinesium and auto motors are built for way higher power output. It's all a series of intersecting equations. Each buyer/rider ultimately has a different mission profile and will operate them differently. Building custom for serious riders is the only choice. To date I have not seen a single ebike off the shelf that is a reliable transport option. They all have compromises and many are shit frames to begin with.
Good points. Thanks
I got a Magic Pie 5 nine years ago. It's rated at 1kW at 48V but happily does 2kW at 56V. I've used it daily since, and I expect it to outlast me!
Only maintenance I ever needed to do was to replace its large bearing after I stupidly jetwashed it and some water got in and it seized. I was able to unseize and still use it with horrible noises while I waited for a new bearing to arrive!
Lesson, don't jetwash hub motors directly!
My experience after 10 years is the opposite. First motor, 1000 watt hub drive from GRIN,20,000K+. The wheel bearings were going at this point,motor fine with zero maintenence. Changed to a Bafang 1000w BBSHD and 2 years into this zero maintenance,no issues. So I always buy heavy duty. Underpower a motor rather than overpower a less rated one. More weight though.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm thinking that my next motor will be a Bafang mid drive.
I'm _still_ loving our Bafang m620, but I'd steer clear of any of their newer stuff using CANBus: Even _with_ their (proprietary!) adapter, the missing settings mean a lack of fine adjustment that Bafang does not (sort of _cannot)_ do.
Which is a shame, because the m620 UART version is an extremely capable, smooth & responsive motor+controller, _once properly calibrated & then configured for a particular bike build._
There are 2 main enemy's of Ebike motors.
Heat and water.
If water or moisture comes in the motor, it's done.
Heat..
Most motors don't have temperature measurement on display, so you don't really know when it's to much heat and to stop.
You can always stick heat probe to your mid drive and monitor temperature.Gears melt when it's too hot,motor burns when it's too hot.
Motors have short lifespan because people don't educate themself, and push them hard beyond limits.
You raise a good point. There should be a temperature readout on an ebike display.
Really, I need a temp gauge on the motor, the controller, _and_ near every stressed contact point, in the battery etc.
I haven't actually observed ours (an m620 geared mid-motor with internally integrated controller within the case), to get warmer than body temp, even on long uphill climbs at max output.
The _battery_ (13S6P Samsung 35E 18650 cells) does get slightly warm, & the batteries I've seen using ≤5P 21700 cells, got _hot._
(At present, I'm totally unconvinced that fewer 21700 cells, work as well as equal draw spread across more 18650 cells, at the high draw rates an ebike pulls during a climb/sprint. 21700 cells are mostly a cost-per-KWh savings for manufacturers, from what I see.)
The fact that most ebikes lack _any_ temp gauge & have at most one or two temp sensors, is a "tragesty".
Typo: Should say "
That conclusion is a bit of a stretch.
The torn up gears are really more analogous to a transmission. The motors themselves seem to be fairly reliable.
Unlubricated plastic gears or even powdered metal gears are never going to last like a solid metal gear in an oil bath.
At work we ran hundreds of motors 16 hours a day for decades and almost never had a failure of any of the brushless style motors. Brushed motors did fail as did the capacitors on single phase motors but I can only remember one 3 phase motor failure and that was just bad bearings.
The rule of thumb was that it isn't the motor that is broken. More likely a belt, wire, sensor, contactor, loss of a phase, loose pully, bad bearing, a jam, stop line, control relay, computer or controller or pretty much everything except the motor itself (except the 1 time it was the motor).
Yes! Interesting point. I hadn't thought about it that way.
WOW!!! You pretty much covered all the "possibilities".
In the "loss of phase" situation, would that be a problem with the Hall-effect sensors, or the controller?
@@DavidCooper-bn6te at work it could be facility power, 1 blown fuse/3, 1 bad contact/3 on the starter, or 1 out of 3 burnt contacts on the twistlock plug. If a forklift was involved a ripped out wire.
On a bike I'd guess wiring or the controller that makes the 3 phase for the brushless motor. Does not seem like a sensor would cause the loss of a phase but what do I know? My experience base is more industrial.
There are two problems, one is that the manufacturers try to get maximum power from minimum weight. The other problem is that manufacturers are not interested to built sustainable, repairable bikes as long as customers do not insist on sustainability. My Bosch Classic Motor broke down because of a plastic gear that could have been replaced easily, Bosch refused a repair and suggested a new motor for 650 EUR. I ordered a metal replacement from a small firm and the bike worked for another couple of years. Planned obsolescence in a market that is rapidly evolving is the main driver here, IMHO. My old MTB from the early 90s is still running smoothly, btw.
And Bosch motors are touted to be the world's best??? Shame on that company!
Bosch are the mostly tightly integrated (state-protected "vertical integration" monopoly tends to do that!), but there are so many gearless Bafang hub motors out there running _wayyyy_ beyond their specified ratings, that I've a hard time taking serious any upstart claims of reliability, & even worse is the outlook for _servicing_ Bosch equipment...
There’s exactly one meta-answer: “Value engineering”
They could make an e-bike motor that lasted 500,000 miles if they wanted to, but there’d be no point to it. People don’t ride as far on their bikes as in their cars, so it would be a waste of money to make a bike motor that lasted 150-300,000 miles. No one would pay for it, for the larger gears with hardened metal teeth, oversized hermetically sealed bearings, etc, etc.
The goal in any design is to meet the needs of the application as cheaply as possible. People will pay exactly what a product is worth to them and not a penny more: Spend too much on building a motor that lasts 2x longer than the competition and everyone will buy from your competitors. I suspect that people who expect to ride their e-bikes more than 10k miles is a small percentage of the market and those that do are probably willing to spend the money for a direct-drive model.
What you say makes perfect sense. Thanks for your input.
A delivery rider friend has ridden 25,000+ miles on a Cube Kathmandu gen 3 performance CX, always in turbo and it's and still going strong. It needed a new battery at this mileage though.
Good to know.
I also do deliveries on bike and have ridden almost 35.000 km on my Bosch Gen4 CX. Luckily I have 2 batteries and they still hold pretty well.
If only Bosch would provide a throttle...sigh!
@@RobertBeriault753 get an electric motorbike instead?
@@RobertBeriault753 That would not be considered an ebike anymore, but a moped, and for that you need a drivers license (at least in Romania)
A motor or generator running in a low stress situation can last 100+ years with regular cleaning and maintenance. A motor over driven in a harsh environment with plastic gears dies young. No mystery.
Makes sense.
Exactly!
I am not pro Mid-drive motors because the chain and gears are not upgraded for the extra torque that the motor produces. The other issue with them is the internal gears which are made light to keep weight down.
That makes sense.
Plastic gears in geared ebike motors are not only more silent and cheaper to make than metal ones, but they also are meant to fail first, without destroying other more expensive parts.
Not a bad point.
I'm going to phone bikes shops to ask how much they charge to either lubricate or change planetary gears.
@@RobertBeriault753 That would be the most economical thing to do (at least in my country, Romania)
My Grin 1000 watt hub went 20,000 K no issues before I changed to a mid drive. Plastic planetary gears.I didnt check them for state of wear but worked fine at that point with no noise.They seem to be very strong and I definitely didnt baby it,a lot of steep cranking up hill.
To avoid burning your controller and/or your motor; When you need torque, give it 100% power while pedaling, if you can not pedal at a comfortable rate, get off your ebike and walk the hill.
And alway make sure neither is burning hot.
Why ?
The MOSFETS in the controller heat-up when they have to reduce the current, let's say at 90% but at 100% there is less restriction so they heat less (if you stay whithin their max current specs).
The motor needs to turn, the worst thing you can do is make it stall. The motor will "ask" so much current that something is gonna burn and it can be the motor's stator/rotor wire insulation.
a much simpler way is too simply put a bigger motor than what your controller is made for. Just put a 1000 watts motor with a 500w controller and you are certain to have a very very long lifespan with you motor.
I don't understand why only a few people do that. Seeing the very small price difference between a 500 and a 1000w motor, it's really mysterious. It work with every power of course, you can put a 500w motors with a 250w controller and it work fine as well.
You can also underpower the motor, take a 48v motor and run it on 36v...
Yeah, it's those darned hills.
Why Ebike motors don´t last short version: Because long lasting motors don´t sell new ones
That could be. Thanks.
E-bike motors are higher stressed, but as mentioned here in the comments, hours of use may be a more accurate comparison. I have 14,000km on my RadMini and have never had a gear failure, however, I did swap the gears once due to wear on the teeth. The RadMini is modified to be a "rescue bike", and has extra power for towing other bikes (3,200 watts), but default mode is the usual 750 watts/20mph. I did try steel gears, but they were SO loud that I turned around after 200 feet and took them off! I do have brass gears, but I suspect they will only be slightly quieter. My preference would be nylon gears with steel reinforcements. The perfect gears would be double helical (aka herringbone). They can be metal and still be quiet, but companies stay with straight cut or single helical gears for cost savings. Single helical is quiet, but induces side thrust and extra friction. For now, I'm sticking with nylon which is fine unless you do jumps at full throttle.
As for why few companies offer direct drive, the answer is cost, weight, and torque. They are larger because they need the extra pole-to-axle length for acceptable torque, they have more magnets, and more coils. This translates into a heavier motor that uses more materials. Now, you CAN have a direct drive that has so much torque it's scary, but those are upper end motors that are expensive and require much more power than a typical e-bike battery can supply. The typical geared hub motor is far lighter, and can be that way because of the 5x torque multiplication provided by the gears.
Thank you for this information.
my first bldc 500w front wheel motor got near 100k miles. 27mph 36v. the only issues were spoke replacement and twi e had to replace the hall sensors(3) in the motor
ebay kits are pretty good. more power like 2kw are more durable.
Wow! That's impressive! Thanks for sharing.
The nylon gears in a hub motor are intended to wear and fail. As you mentioned, replacing them is easy. It is better that they wear rather than the geared housing of the hub (which would basically kill the motor). Labour cost is pretty irrelevant if you fix the bike yourself, which can be done with simple, inexpensive tools (compared to working on a car these days!). I haven't tried direct drive, but I'd like to. I understand they are heavier, and have a good top-end but don't accelerate like the geared motors do.
I think you're right on all those points.
@oddlytimbotwillison6296 - The cost of the set of 3 plastic gears with the new bearings and cir-clips is less than $10 and since you don't have to disassemble the spokes and rim it only takes about an hour to replace them. Even if you have to purchase a simple bearing puller the cost of replacing the gears and giving them a light coat of white lithium grease is very low. Of course many bike shops will want to sell you a $600 +/- OEM motor rather than replace $10 worth of gears because either way their getting their minimum 1 hour of labor however with the motor they are getting their cut of profit from selling the $600 motor instead of a few dollars profit off selling the $10 gears. Some also want you to believe that the Sun will fall out of the sky and come crashing down on your house if you repair your own bike.
In the worst case you can purchase a complete matching kit with a new hub motor already mounted on the rim, controller, throttle, display, wiring harness, PAS sensor, etc, etc for around $200 and have a 100% completely new system on the bike.
Best!
All that is very true for those who have the ability and time to perform mechanical work. But for the majority of riders, a motor failure means an expensive visit to the bike shop.
@@RobertBeriault753 It saddens me that so many have become incapable of what the average 10 year old could do when I was a youth. It really should only be the small minority who can't do this for themselves.
Of course we could get into a discussion of the difference between those that really can't, self defeatists who due to their own fears falsely believe its beyond them and those that simply won't.
I've met very few people who really can't and a great many who self defeat and won't even try though they are totally capable.
Sometimes I have them watch and then pull them in to see if I have the order correct etc and then ask them to tighten something, start the threads on some bolts and by the time we're through they've done 75 to 90% of something that thought was impossible for them to do.
So many end up pleasantly surprising themselves.
Yep, Old age and Treachery indeed!
Best!
Fixing bikes is fun for some people and an unpleasant chore for others. Thanks for sharing your observations.
I have had failure of the ebike controllers and I had determined that with setting it on the highest PAS setting the controller will fail early. It's best to set the controller setting on a medium assist level for longevity because of inadequate component cooling. Also having a spare replacement controller can come in handy as they are relatively inexpensive but a pain in the ass to reconnect all the connections. Carrying a replacement controller and tools with you can aid in not becoming stranded or having to pedal a heavy ebike a long distance without assist back home.
Good points, thanks for sharing. It would be interesting to have an idea of the average longevity of ebike controllers.
I use a CYC Photon mid-drive with all-metal gears, it has done 4200 miles no problems so far, on-road and off-road. Best efficiency is around 700W but it will go more than twice that power for short bursts. I live in a flat part of the UK. The 9-speed chain works hard so I use immersive hot wax lubrication on a set of three chains and I have zero measurable chain wear so far.
My original Cyclone 3kw motor from 8 years ago is still running perfectly. I keep thinking about upgrading, but there really isn't much point.
Thanks for sharing your experience with the Photon and hot wax lube.
@@ridefast0 yes, 4 parts paraffin wax, 1-3 parts beeswax, some ISO680 synthetic gear oil (plasticizer and added lubricity - adjust to suit: more oil = better lubrication, but more mess) and soon, powdered Teflon. That gets added when I next run the chains.
Dedicated (used) crock pot, clean the chains in solvent prior, then let them stew in the hot wax with a slow withdrawal to prevent a waxy buildup. Usually good for 150 miles behind a BBS-HD per chain. I have three also, as waxing chains is time-consuming and three or more takes but a little longer than just one.
ive been pumping close to 3kw through some old un-named chinese hub motor for years with out it even getting warm... 96V at 30A...
blown speed controllers, blown batteries... had to replace the motor wires due to dropping it... did a set of bearings as it was rusted out when i found it on a bike dumped in the bushes...
but this motor and its windings are bulletproof...
That's an amazing motor you've got there. Good luck with it.
The only market I know of that might give a plastic to metal gear comparison is radio controlled cars, where some have a metal gear upgrade available.
It's probably that there's not much value in that kind of data.
My ebike motor is a bafang hub and I've had it since 2017. I've only had to change out the planetary gears a couple times during its lifespan, and since this part comes from China, I order about five of them so I am never without. The gear set for my motor costs about $45 each, and the gears are plastic, made to wear out sooner than the hub housing runner teeth. It's designed as a sacrificial part for the long-term motor usage, and this cost and tradeoff is something I'm willing to do.
That's a good approach!
Seems like delamination and lamination stack distortion in Bafang bbshd ipm rotors is another issue. Received defective rotors two times.
@@uvwuvw-ol3fg Ive ridden a BBSHD two years now no problem. Often hard up mountain trails. Go through chains though.
And clearly a major variable in this equation is how the bike is being ridden.
I can nearly guarantee you if I look at a fat bike that the chain will have no wear on it whatsoever - the customer who bought that bike just wants an unregistered, cheap, electric motorcycle and the pedals are simply footrests that are there to satisfy a legality, while they blast around town on full throttle.
E-bikes that are ridden as bicycles, IE pedaling with some supplemental electrical assist, will probably do much better.
Good point.
I'm sure that is true for a good number of riders, but I've purchased a fatbike and I ride it properly - human power with electrical assistance. I use it for exercise and I am at the elderly end of the spectrum.
My Fat Tyre E bike has a torque sensor on the crank and no throttle so I have to put some effort in to get any back .
The hypothesis seems to be the wrong question. Engines die due to wear and tear because pistons, cams, and gears rub against each other. Does that same apply to brushless motors?
Good question.
@@RobertBeriault753 I look forward to another attempt Robert because the core question is still very valuable to ask. One hypothesis I would like to propose is that these BLDCs are driven incorrectly. As a result they overheat and short out after a while. Happy to go further if you're interested in a followup
It is, in fact, not actually about horsepower. The problem is closer related to forces converted to torque and the limits of the material used to transfer that torque.
You have already pinpointed that usually the mode of failure is shearing of gear teeth.
If the gears were larger and made of a more durable material, combined with more appropriate methods of lubrication, they'd potentially outlive the frame of your ebike.
But, as always, it comes down to cost and revenue! If they fail you need new stuff, which means more purchases.
Ever heard the term "planned obsolescence"?
Yeah, despite all of the greenwashing, here we are!
I spent my life working as an engineer, and I guarantee it is possible to design electric drives that would last decades and millions of kilometers.
That's a troubling revelation.
I suppose you could even just limit the peak power output, maybe based off motor wire temperatures
20000 km on my bbshd mid drive right now, I had 12000 km on my bbso2 when I sold it. I ride at almost max draw most the time, I do go through a lot of batterys though, partly because I cant stand bad voltage sag.
I think that's another advantage of mid-drives. Yea, batteries don't last as long as motors and they're more expensive.
I really like how you approach the question, methodical. It is always hard to get reliable info on part failures, and this is really interesting
I appreciate that!
no active cooling/ lubrication/service interval
Not easy to lubricate
@@RobertBeriault753 an acquaintance asked me what is the best grease for plastic gears, he was thinking of ebikes, I told him any that is almost liquid, because if it is solid, it will spread and soon it will no longer be on the teeth, it is the same with the angle grinder, I add oil into the grease to make it soft so that it at least coats the teeth a little
@@RobertBeriault753 it is easy to lubricate the gears. I did it for the first time this weekend. there are lots of youtube tutorials
So do i need to open my motor and see what kind if any grease is on the gears...?
And should i plan to replace plastic gears with metal gears and grease..this is my first e bike and i can tell it would be great for traveling hills and long distance...???
🚲❣️
Good questions, but I don't know the answers
Way overthinking this. Ive ridden ebike 10 years, these motors arent a headache like a ICE motor.
@jaaklucas1329 thanks but I was talking to bob...👍🏻
@@James-cs3hp Hey no worries. Ive built 2 ebikes now over 10 years and 25,000K riding.Plastic gears no problem here(theyre quiet thats why instead of metal).You will hear them failing,never have. I doubt an expert could tell what kind of grease is in there!
@jaaklucas1329 it seems like metal gears would generate more heat..so did you use a hi temp grease on your builds with plastic gears...and would wheel barron grease prematurely ware the plastic gears...
10,000 miles out of a motor could be a reasonable 5 years use for many owners. Since a replacement motor is $300. or so that is still very inexpensive transportation. The replacement plastic gear sets are $50. if you can do the replacement yourself. Direct Drive motors are very much still available but are installed on high output applications making them illegal for road use. Many motors with regen are often direct drive but within legal power limits.
Thanks for your perspective
@@daytriker the power input is what determines legality, e.g. you can have a 3 kw nominal motor, and only give it 1 kw of input, e.g. current limit the windings to, say, 18 amps at 52 volts nominal (with, say, a brief surge to a higher level, to help with “emergency acceleration.” (To avoid getting pasted by an irate driver, for example.)
An understressed drive train is likely to last longer and give less trouble, all else being equal.
Imagine having to replace your legs just as often as E-bikes, the human body is incredible :)
There's no comparison. A single cell of the human body is millions of times more complex than an ebike.
This is a great and interesting topic, Robert. Siemens, Germany started electric motor building about 150 years ago. Some of them lasted extremely long. But the questions are: How big are the relations weight to move, speed, watts and how big and heavy the motor can be?
Other question: Does a small motor for a moped that runs on gas last longer in comparison to an e-bike motor?
Which e-bike motor brand lasts the longest? Experiences with Bafang middrives are good. And these motors can be repaired. Last Bosch longer? Are MAC hubmotors from E-Bikes, Vancouver, Canada the best?
All good questions. It would take a well-funded research team to gather data to arrive at answers.
" how big and heavy the motor can be" is the key here. Think old washing machine motor, never dies because its never overtaxed. Apply this idea to your Ebike. Big motor like a BBSHD and 48volt. It will power up really well. Of course, thats DIY and not for everyone.Local restrictions usually mean bikes have underpowered hub motors.
I built my own conversion using a 750 watt Bafang BB drive. This turns an Alpine 8 speed internal hub. 8 years in and No problems yet. A BB drive running thru a multi speed hub allows you to make sure you are using the motor at its optimum speed range for any terrain. 700 watts climbing a 20% grade in 2nd, to 700 watts running level in 8th gear. Hub motors cook themselves at anything other than the one speed they are most efficient at. Built on a formerly belt drive Spot Ajax- the entire bike, with rack, 41 lbs. I carry 50 lbs of groceries in panniers up steep grades and don’t even know it’s there.
Thanks for sharing your experience, and for explaining the advantages of this setup.
Justin Lemire-Elmore of Grin Technologies often says if the direct drive hub motors don't break in the first couple thousand miles, they effectively will last the life of the bike. they either break early, or very very late
Interesting. And he's an authority on motors for sure.
As a full time ebike mechanic I would say that anecdotally this seems very true and also somewhat applicable to generic and budget ebike parts in general: I would estimate 80-90% of catastrophic failures of motors, screens and controllers is either unreasonably fast (say a month or less) or takes years and years and many thousands of miles.
Geared motors specifically do indeed seem to have a lifespan of around 10,000 miles, with gear replacement required every 3k on average.
@@markifi only moving part is the bearings, cost a few $ for replacements... Fitting can be a job if you don't do mechanical things
@@lezbriddon i've been replacing bearing grease with marine grease lately. it doesn't flow as well, but it's very waterproof. i think this is a good idea to do even to a new set of bearings to make them last longer. time will tell wheter there's anything to regret about it
@@markifi considering the riding in rain and water that sounds a good idea.
I clicked out of curiosity about ebike motors. I stayed because it was an excellent RUclips video. Well argued hypothesis, I can see YT getting behind this video and pushing it with suggestion and giving it LOTS of traction. Job well done.
Thank you kindly
i have a direct drive hub motor that has been through 3 or 4 bikes across 2 owners, it is used with almost 10x its rated power. zero maintenance in the past 10 years. The bikes and wheels have fallen apart around the motor, but the motor keeps going. the motor is used mainly in the winter where there is a lot of snow and cooling.
Wow! Thanks for your input.
The north American tendency for ebikes to be more widely used as lightweight electric motorcycles, compared to the Europeans having legislation that limits ebikes to pedal assist (no hand throttles) plays a big factor, too. I'm legally allowed a throttle in Australia (provided I power limit my bike to 200w, it's 250w at 5/5 boost, so a legal maximum boost of 4/5 on throttle operation) but I only use a motor because of heart condition. I've been a lifetime "dry bike" rider prior to this. So, I use pedal assist only to keep my heart rate below my medically prescribed 128BPM (I'm a disco song ) and I have to pedal to make the motor draw current from the battery. I rarely take my controller above 3/5 boost, AKA 150w, so the motor never gets anywhere near as hot as a throttle controlled bike. So there's the other big advantage of pedal assist. Longevity, for the motor, controller and battery. Not to mention, retaining or building fitness. A lifetime of cycling for transport is what saved my life when I had my heart attack 4 years ago, not my opinion, my cardiologist's. The mobile intensive care paramedic riding in the back of the ambulance with me called it a "widowmaker" and was "honest" about my slim odds, so I am determined to keep pedalling for as long as I can. That it keeps the bike going longer, that's a bonus ;-)
yeah, the rules are funny with the power assist/pedelec variation... usual bureaucracy...
the period before they banned the ICE was amusing... it had always been 30cc/30kmh. then they dropped the capacity limit... then they banned them altogether...
lol, i dont give a hoot where i live, rural area... and i show some restraint and consideration, i like to think.
problem with the rules is that theyre the same within one state... from tibooburra to griffith, broken hill to strawberry hills... you arent hurting anyone out in woop woop on empty roads where you might see one car in an hour...
the problem is the kids and or bogans in greystanes and wentworth that ride with no brakes, no helmets, on the wrong side of the road, dont care about traffic lights or road rules, fail to maintain situational awareness, ride across busy main roads without looking, ride through shopping malls and down footpaths and hurling abuse at pedestrians, all whilst holding a phone in one hand and a boom box or VB in the other...
and dont get me started on the ubereats guys with their illegal mopeds in sydney areas that we turn a blind eye to... or the scooter boys that failed to look up the rules... scooters are illegal. if it was built to primarily rely on the motor, its a moped. the rules state quite clearly... a BICYCLE fitted with motor. not "small motorcycle with rudimentary and superfluous pedals that can perform just as well with the chain removed"
Thanks for the insightful comment. It's nice to think that by pedalling you're extending both the life of the bike and your own!
@@paradiselost9946 kids will be kids. In a few years they'll be doing the equivalent kinds of stupid in cars. I'd rather people didn't break road rules, but if I had to choose, I'd rather people were stupid on a bicycle than aggressive in a car. A stupid cyclist is only likely to kill themself, stupids in cars kill 3 people a day in Australia.
Comparing an Ebike with a car does not make much sense, like comparing a car with a tractor or a lorry. An Ebike should be compared with a moped or mofa with 50cc IC engine. Because these vehicles have the same purpose.
Interesting point. I'll have to think about that.
Do they? I got a 1500w motor and it seems to work fine for several years now.
How many years and how many miles?
@RobertBeriault753 roughly about 10 years. Not that many miles though, I hardly ride it anymore. I'd guess about 7k miles. The batteries died multiple times, and replacements were too expensivem
Batteries are ebike killers: ruclips.net/video/U-BI5fkwjFo/видео.html
What do you mean, these things were suppose to last forever maintenance free. That's what the salesman told me. I didn't buy, because I felt suspicious.
I like a sceptical mind.
Well something like a QS205 motor will run over 100,000 miles no problem. Crack it open and I promise it'll smell brand new too, so long as the correct voltage is being run through the motor. Budget ebikes are designed to fail if you ask me, just like common smart phones.
nice channel granpa,loving it
Thank you!
Great analysis, sir!
I would love to see the comparison with electric cars and with an in between option like electric motorcycles, just to see if your hypothesis is still valid.
I'm glad you like the video! That's a great idea, I'll think about it.
Your math doesn't necessarily prove your hypothesis, but it supports it. In order to prove your hypothesis, you would have to see if motor failiures are more frequent on bikes that carry heavier loads.
Good point. It could be done, but you'd need a well-funded research team.
2 important issues: wrong lube on plastic gears and moisture entry into the motor housing. Use lithium based lube, best is aeroplane grease. And a pressure equalising valve so that when the motor cools it doesn't inhale wet air.
You'd think manufacturers could easily do these two things.
I've got almost 7k on my bafang which lives outside. Other than some moisture intrusion during some temperature swings it's been flawless.
I wish your Bafang a long life!
I better stay at my non-ebike. Until today 80000 km. Only parts to be more or less regularly changed: bottom bracket, chain, cassette, pedals, chainrings, brake shoes.
As long as you're fit enough to supply all the energy needed, a non-electric bike is best for several reasons.
@@RobertBeriault753unfortunately, fitness is only temporary, so my ebike is probably the last bike I'll ever need!
You can avoid all those wear parts with a direct drive hub motor. The only thing you need to change are tires.
And tires. You definitely need tires after a few thousand miles (or less!)
On each bike, even the one salvaged from an alleyway & rolling on used rubber, I end up spending more on tires than anything else.
@@prophetzarquon Tires are cheap though, no big deal changing every few k miles, but it's a bit more involved with a heavy rear hub motor and torque arms to deal with.
even direct drive hubmotors fail…usually the hall sensors fail, or if loaded up at slow speeds, you can short the windings from overheating
I guess the way it's ridden can make a difference.
If you can short the windings with a direct drive hub motor then surely it would be far worse for a mid-drive motor or geared hub motor as direct drive hub motors are large and heavy and disappate heat very well indeed. In fact a basic direct drive motor you buy in a 500W kit could be used probably all the way up to 3000W. Direct drive don't have a lot of torque due to lack of gears so typically 30-40Nm, they are the weakest of all motor types for torque for the same wattage. I'm sure I read of someone getting 60K out of one without any issues at all and I saw a video on Grin technology where a extremely well used direct drive motor was restored to full functionality very cheaply likely hall sensors or bearings ready for another 8 years or so. I think direct drive is a great value option especially with regen and the savings to brake pads.
Here is the thing about magnets: Heat them up to a certain point, and no amount of immediate cooling will return them to their original strength. I wound a few hundred RC motor of various turns and wire gauges combined with different size propellers and if you over prop just once and heat up the magnets you might as well throw it out. lol Amperage goes up fast and so does the heat.
I never knew that. Seems to me that this could kill a motor.
@@RobertBeriault753 Its easy to try. Get a magnet to just barely hold the weight of any object. Heat it up so it's too hot to touch then try again after it has cooled.
When I first thought about cars going Electric I imagined an industry of people rebuilding motors but then imagined it would be too expensive but all these motors can be rebuilt as new. Maybe someday it will be feasible
*Good news:* Non-Permanent Magnet motors, tolerate a _lot_ more heat!
*Bad news:* Even more expensive controllers.
@@prophetzarquon
But the varnish insulation on the copperwire do have temp limitations too. So heat must be controlled.
48v hub motor has 20k miles + and feels brand new. My non geared hub motor wheels are on their second bike and 3rd set of wheels
I'm not sure the data points to a "short lifespan."
Geared hub motors have more torque for starts & hills & weigh much less. Direct drive motors will go faster on level ground but aren't as quick off the line than a geared hub motor. Nylon gear sets are like $6 online & aren't that hard to install if buying the few proper tools needed. Ebike motors biggest enemy is overheating so give them a few minutes to cool every 20 - 30 minutes when the hub gets to hot to touch or get a temp gauge to monitor.
Thank you for going through this exercise in trying to support why ebike motors don't last. There's probably a few more important reasons. First, ebikes are far from a mature technology, there are still many manufacturers who spend very little on deep engineering related to anything other than watts and price. The main reasons are there isn't a big incentive to study failure root causes and addressing them in a nascent technology that's primarily driven by price and watts. Since majority of manufacturers are Chinese specialty manufacturers, who have no incentive to develop high quality, it's unlikely longevity of drivetrains will improve across the market.
What you say makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
Huge number of failure points with mid-drive motors including tons of bearings, cogs and sometimes belts plus you have the riders own power directly feeding into it and the weight of the rider when out of the saddle. Also many mid-drive ebikes are highly proprietary so often they become uneconomic to repair due to incredibly high repair prices. They also wear down the drivetrain much faster, typically 3x that of a standard bike (depends on power of course). Typically a proprietary mid-drive ebike has frame, motor and battery tied together so any failure of one component means the ebike could be uneconomic to repair. It's not just about reliability but how the fault can be resolved. A hub motor is relatively easy to repair, a hub controller relatively easy to replace and of course many hub motor ebikes have open standards for the battery. If you are looking for an ebike for long road rides and value surely if it has to be a hub motor. However if you are looking for a e-mountain bike then mid-drive typically makes more sense. Some of the mid-drive motors for city bikes are very low power and therefore only offer light assistance and don't accelerate drivetrain wear that much wear as a e-mountain bike mid-drive motor could have much more power and typically won't be as reliable. Despite their 250W rating here in Europe a 250W e-mountain bike with a mid-drive motor is something like 23A x 42V maximum power which is over 900W maximum power. The 250W rating makes no sense but seems to be a way of restricting imports from China more than anything else so often European ebikes are higher wattage. The Chinese are learning how the legislation works and now sell many 750W ebikes certified as 250W but they still aren't typically as powerful as European e-mountain bikes.
If you want reliability above everything else then direct drive, if you want a ebike ideal for long rides and value then a geared hub motor but if you want something super torquey, well balanced and ideal for off-road riding then mid-drive.
💯 *^* This.
"250W" is (thankfully) mostly a myth created by workaround labeling; mid-drive offers (vastly) superior weight distribution, but increases drivetrain wear; geared hub motors offer good range & decent value, despite bad weight distro + no regen & shorter life than gearless; gearless hub motors are the simplest (& allow a bit of regen!) but are a _lot_ of unsprung mass to go knocking around on a rocky trail.
@@prophetzarquon Yeah there is no give in a direct drive motor wheel, the spokes are so short so unless you have thick tyres they can be uncomfortable. If you have a low power direct drive setup then I personally think they are better on the front and if you have regen you need strong steel forks as the motor wants to turn the axle both ways depending on whether its assisting or doing regen. I can't imagine a worst e-mountain bike than one with a direct drive hub motor. The totally wrong solution for that. A small geared hub motor I guess would be somewhere in the middle. I have a simplistic view, hub motors for the road, mid-drive for off-road.
I bought a Bafang Mid motor 5 or 6 years ago. It was the most powerful at that time and the most expensive but it still works great today. I use it at least 5 days a week in every weather have done almost 15000 km in these years and I had no problem with the actual motor. Of course I had to change parts on the bike like chain and gears but the motor never had anything.
I'm using the bafang BBS02B 750W for 5 years now. The only lesson important for everybody. Grease the bearings . Factory greasing is feeble. Good for 3000km. After that, you get squeeks. And soon after that, the motor electronics will overload due friction and die.
Thanks for sharing
Same here,BBSHD. 48 volt with a mid drive like this is plenty of torque.
I gave up driving recently, and I have 3 ebikes. At almost 67, my ebikes should last many years. If one fails, ill buy another one.
It's a good idea to have a spare ebike.
@RobertBeriault753 I have 2 of the same ones. Instant parts if I need them, and 2 batteries, actually 3 batteries now. I can carry the extra batteries for a longer range. Merry Christmas.
Good strategy.
It's a good idea to have a spare comment.
I suspect the motor/gearbox weight to power ratio, would be a more reliable indicator of design stress. Also, the price of an overhaul or total replacement is quite different.
Thanks for this idea. It's a relationship that should be investigated.
Where are they made?
Mostly China
Ours were cheap hub ebay conversion kits, they have lasted years. i have my original 2012 direct drive kit, i'm on a daily direct drive 3yr old kit and wifes is hub geared drive at 2yrs (replaced after theft) and she rides it daily for the work commute. its about to fail on its cheap internal bearings/cogs, they cost a few $ so they will be replaced.
2012, That makes you an old hand with electric bikes! Thanks for your story.
I think e-bikes are great. But if you are 50+ years, I'll recommend to let a doctor examine your bones - if the bones are weak, a simple fall on the bike, can be quite serious.
Here in Denmark, there are some statistics, suggesting the importance of this.
Especially important for women over 50 years of age.
or some online bone health calcutlator if they include vit d sunbathing maybe diet
plenty of recumbent trikes for those people
Speaking of fractured hips, riding was much less painful than walking, & greatly helped speed my recovery!
How do mid drive motors benefit from the gear system of the bike? With the exception of mountain bikes (true mountain bikes), bicycle drive trains are set up for legs, not motors and have no under drive gear. All of the gears in most bicycle drive trains are overdrive gears.
As I understand it, mostly from every electric motor I have ever seen, electric motors like to spin fast and be geared down for torque multiplication. Like it will drive a load via a belt with a much larger pulley than the one on the motor. The high speed of the motor is reduced and the torque is multiplied. Many electric motors have cooling fans on the main shaft for cooling. This is another reason they like to go fast.
Bicycle drive trains are over drive with torque division, not multiplication. My hybrid bike has 3 chain rings in the front, 28, 38 and 48 with 7 in the rear going from 11 to 28. The lowest gear is 1:1 (28 teeth on the chain ring and 28 teeth on the cassette cog) The highest gear is 1:4 where the wheel spins 4 times for every rotation of the crank. There are no under drive gear ratios.
Even if the drive train was optimized for motors, there is no guarantee any user will ever have it in the optimal gear for the load. There is no information on any e-bike headset that gives the motor RPM, iow, no tachometer. Without such information, a cyclist would not have enough information to know what gear his drive train should be in.
I don't understand all of what you said, but all I know from experience with a mid drive is that if you start up from a full stop in high gear, the motor will be very sluggish and you know you're labouring it. Is that what you're saying?
@@RobertBeriault753 Not really. What I'm saying is most applications of electric motors involve gearing down the motor. Like you put a 4" pulley on the motor and an 8" pulley on the load connected with a drive belt. This is called torque multiplication. It reduces the speed the load will turn out, but increases the torque.
Like if your electric motor puts out 10footpounds of torque, but you run a belt to the load with a pulley that is 4 times the diameter of the pulley on the motor shaft, you get 40 pounds of torque at the load, but at the expense of running at 1/4th the speed. (this example would not be a bike, it's just for the purposes of illustration).
With the exception of mountain bikes which do generally have at least 1 or 2 under-drive gears (reduction as opposed to multiplication), most bicycles do not have that, they have the opposite. There is almost always a larger diameter sprocket on the drive end (the cranks) and a smaller diameter gear at the driven end (the cog on the wheel). An example would be a 28 tooth crank (the pedal side) and a 14 tooth on the wheel side. This means a single turn of the crank will turn the wheel twice.
In just about every other application with an electric motor, it does the opposite of a bicycle drive train. This is because electric motors like to spin fast. AFAIK, the main advantages of having a bottom bracket (mid drive) e-bike motor is because it puts the weight of the motor in the lowest point of the bike. It also reduces unsprung weight on bikes with rear suspensions and allows for stronger and higher quality rear wheel hubs. They also tend to be way more expensive and with better build quality. Chong's hub motors simply cannot compete with Bosch or Shimano. They can charge more money and so they can build a higher quality motor.
By way of example, the m620's internal reduction gearing leaves it with _plenty_ of power handling but a relatively narrow output-shaft RPM range. (Even moreso, for the m630 cargo motor.)
One result is that low-speed riding must either be done at significantly higher cadence & lower pedal force than usual, in an earlier\easier gear, or else risk running the motor at low RPM under load (which is bad for them).
Speaking very loosely, a given voltage can produce a given RPM, while the amperage required to reach that RPM increases with load: Pumping more amperage through a motor without letting it rotate faster, increases its internal resistance & waste heat. Hence, I'm better off sticking to lower-load (higher-RPM, higher cadence) gears, than I would otherwise prefer, simply because the ratio of motor-RPM per pedal crank, is not _quite_ as high as I (or the motor) would like.
@@prophetzarquon The problem with internal gearing on a mid drive motor is you are multiplying the inefficiencies. Now instead of having 1 drive train introducing inefficiencies, you have two (the one on the bike and the one in the motor).
I'm sure there are some advantages, like low center of gravity and less unsprung weight, to a mid drive motor. But using the bike's drivetrain is not one of them.
The other cool aspect of a direct drive motor is the ability to have regenerative braking.
Yes, regenerative braking is very nice.
In Europe, legal e-bikes are limited to 250 Watts ! They work with pedal assist up to 25 km/h (no pedaling, no riding 😃).
An interesting point. Some viewers commented that running a motor at a lower wattage would allow it to last longer. So maybe European bicycle mechanics get to replace fewer motors than American ones.
The legislation & labeling state a maximum of 250W, but check the real world tests & you'll see that brief peaks around 1100-1500W are typical of most name-brand "250W" ebikes. Not surprising, since even average sized non-pro riders exceed 1000W on a sprint, & above average sized humans use more than 250W just climbing stairs.
I do not want to be that guy and I am not trolling but the first thing I was taught in terms of engines and Motors is that they are both completely different ,an engine makes its power in itself and a motor gets its power from outside. I suspect that we are talking about the compression and the spark plugs and the cylinders being better tuned and a motor being very cheap and not designed for longevity
Inaccurate conclusion about comparing vehicle to e-bike. Generally, engine with higher horsepower has more failure-point than engine with smaller horsepower. For example, larger ICE vehicle produces more heat and long cylinder-head are more likely to bend/warp at high temperature, this condition is a major damage that require overhaul, while small engine produce less heat and simultaneously smaller dimension that less likely to warp/bend at high temperature. Additionally, ebike lack cooling and the gears are not immersed in liquid unlike a motorcycle, so basically ebike's shorter lifespan is on purpose.
Sounds like planned obsolescence.
@@RobertBeriault753 because it is.
As for unit conversions - there are different definitions of the unit in use around the world. The "imperial horsepower" is approx. 745.7W so close to your value of 746. The metric horsepower is 735.49885W some sites claim 1hp is exactly 750W. Both definitions are based on the power ot takes to raise a certain mass by a certain distance on the surface of earth. Unfortunateky gravity isn't quite the same everywjere and of xourse the weights and distances used in the two definitions are different. Worse, there are numerous other definitions. The two I mentioned above are just the primary ones still in use today.
Basically, the horsepower unit is a mess and should die. After all the unit largely got popularized by the steam engine inventor James Watt forarketing purposes.
Combustion engines tend to be heavy due to having to resist the very high internal pressure in cylinders. The reciprocating forces on crank shafts are also very high. With electric.motors oft bearings are the weak point. Also windings which are relatively thin electrical copper are exposed to repeated hearing-cooling cycles, experience forces though the magnetic field.amd vibration which wears them down. Also brushes.
I used to work for a pumped storage company. The copper windings.o their motors/generators wear down over the decades. Every once in a while a sample from a winding is taken during major overhaul and examined in a lab. They last long but not forever. But some of these machines are now over 90 years old, still in ise and continie to be maintainable and repairable. But they were not designed as cheap mass products and nobody cares that maintenance requires a 150t crane. Very much unlike a rbike motor.
Thank you for your insightful and interesting comments.
All six of my eMTB’s are 2nd hand mid drives Bosch powered eBay special, Cube, Haibike Sduro Hard 7 Haibike SD 9 Merida 120 Shimano
Most troublesome has been the Shimano eX 8000 motor and separately, controller failure after 2,500 m E8010 battery failure after 2,000m
Bosch CX excellent apart from minor controller problems, one has over 10,000 miles, all five batteries OK except one battery BMS failed after 10,000 miles
Yamaha - difficult finding service agents in Scotland for my 3 Haibikes - 2k to 4,000 miles trouble free - all 3 batteries ok. After 5k one six yr old controller has gone rogue - causing motor runaway
(only new eMountain Bike KTM Macina Lycan was stolen after 3k)
It's surprising that you've had three with controller problems and a battery failure after 2000 miles. When we compare the need for servicing to cars, ebikes are a lot of trouble. But they're fun.😉
With builds like that, I would guess that they _actually_ go off-road a lot!
Harrrrd miles, those rocky ones are
That's the long way around it.
Comparing ebikes to cars is like Comparing apples and oranges.
Ebikes are made with the minimum power one needs. Therefore, the motor is working at its max quite often.
Car motors rarely work anywhere near its max.
So, what IC engine is running at max most of the time? A seadoo.
With a 2 stroke, the engine lasts 300 hours.
With a 4 stroke, it could last 500 hours.
500 hours X 35 KM/H speed limit = 17,500 km.
The two motors, treated equally, lasts the same amount of time/distance.
Thanks for bringing up these interesting facts.
I do not have experience, but I think metal gears last longer than plastic gears. Thank you, Toyota bias, my 2004 Camry has 300000km
From what I've read, you're right about metal vs. plastic. That Camry doesn't owe you anything!
You want the plastic gears to be the weakest point and to fail first. When metal gears go, they can cause catastrophic irreversible damage in the wheel hub. The ring gear is pressed into the hub and significantly more difficult to fix. The plastic gears can be taken off and replaced easily
what about wooden ones both soft woods and hard woods how about that
Keep it dry, clean and lubricate nylon gears every year, don't use full throttle to pull away,I do this and have 20,000 on my 500watt hub drive , only thing I have done is change the bearings,like a car engine if you look after it then there is a good chance it will last.
Do you do the work yourself. I just wonder how much it would cost in labour to thave the nylon gears lubricated.
My bafang moror just exeeded 20.000 km and still running smooth. It also depends on the force it has to delever. max force = 250 W (legal) max speed = 25km/h (legal)
Makes sense. Thanks for the info about your Bafang motor.
I have two bafang 250 hub motors. One has 17,000km and one 12,000km. I average 29kph over flattish terrain riding on full power. Both motors are fine. One battery got weak after about 350 charging cycles so was replaced.
👌
Same situation (250W, 25km/h). Similiar experience (48.000 km in 4,5 years), no bafang motor, 95% used in flat terrain, runs smooth but sometimes problem with the controler
Another viable answer as to why car engines last so much longer than ebike motors is that a car engine costs 10k and has a pressurized oil system and requires reasonable oil change intervals while ebike motors average about 100 dollars.
Large, expensive industrial electric motors work for decades doing hard work. But they are very expensive up front.
Another explanation is they are building it to the expected battery life. If you get around 30 miles to the charge, 500 cycles equals 15k miles. So just like building a million mile EV battery is massive overkill (cars do not last a million miles. At 13k miles a year on average for a US driver, it would take 76 years to reach a million miles) in relation to the life of the car, building an ebike motor that will long out last the battery is also a bit overkill. Most low end e-bikes will be thrown away when the battery wears out.
Another thing is that the bicycle manufacturers professional group put out a report saying the average bicycle sold at a big box store will accumulate an average of 60 miles before it ends up in the dump. While a smallish number of ebike users will put a lot of miles on their ebikes commuting to work or something, a large number will not. They will never reach 10-15k miles. They will be lucky if they put 1000 miles on their e-bike.
You raise some good points. Thanks for your contribution.
The gears are like 7 bucks. The problem is nobody considers before buying. That being said you can get a ton of miles out of a gear motor if you don't start messing around with your amps. I'm not really good at the conversion but if you're getting 7000 miles out of a $200 motor you're doing good! I would say batteries are a bigger expense what is your battery I'm doing after 11,000 kilometers?
I don't find anything wrong with what you say.
True. The batteries are likely to give trouble before the motor, and the batteries can be harder to work on! (Personal experience with battery, hub motor, and mid-drive.)
Note: regular application of a suitable grease, e.g. Mobil-28 aircraft grease, to the gears seems to help with both durability *AND* noise…
I'll look into gear greasing. Thanks
Ten years Im on my second battery. I notice my new laptop and new phone have adaptive charging, 20 to 80% for long battery life. If you have a big pack on your ebike this is the way to go.But normally we are squeezing everything out of an ebike pack for range.Which Ive done so Im torn here..
@jaaklucas1329 I might fully charge mine once every 10 charges. Just to balance the cells I heard it's more healthy that way for them but I messed up yesterday I got a new battery and I was going to go for a ride, so I charged it all the way and it's raining super hard. Now I'm just waiting for a break so I can ride it around the block a couple times to use some of the charge
I think its mostly bearings and sealings; at least as far as direct drive is concerned. You can spend a lot on those to get something good; but its not something your average customer will pay any attention to when making their buying decision, so you often end up with crap. But even with good bearings; you are still having your motor sit one bearing away from the mud splashing about. As long as you keep the seals and bearings intact (and your setup is temperature limited), a direct drive ebike motor can run essentially forever though.
Thanks for sharing your experience
I prefer a plastic gear that strips than a burned motor
Biktix is changing all that with their new direct drive that now has the power at take off. Things will only get better!
Everything is a trade off.
I couldn't find "bitix" when I googled it.
Any suggestions?
What brand of e-bike do you have?
@DavidCooper-bn6te my bad! biktrix and you will find them all over RUclips
@@DavidCooper-bn6te biktrix my bad! All on YT as well!
That’s why I prefer planetary gears of metal instead. the longevity of my motor has paid off more as I have 8000 miles on my e-bike now and counting 😊
I’m glad to hear that your e-bike is holding up well.
How much louder is the motor? Mind taking a video of how they sound under load?
brushed motors would last 10x longer because you can easily replace brushes. Brushed motors can be rebuilt by a hs student in a hour with less than $100 of common parts. Common brushed motors like alternators outlive cars as long as you know how to replace the wear parts. We sell rebuild kits for brushed motors at maniac electric :)
Do you know of any factory ebikes that have brushed motors?
@@RobertBeriault753 I do not, but i have seen youtubers build bikes with brushed motors, even scrap alternators
How is the brushed or non-brushed motor going to affect the longevity of the gears, which have nothing to do with the type of motor?
@@47f0 cheap plastic gears is a separate problem (which can also easily be rectified i.e. hardened metal gears)
On the side of the e-bike you should also take the human pedalling power into account, which takes some load from the motor.
I didn't take that factor into account on purpose, but does it invalidate the conclusion that ebike motors work harder than car motors?
Good information to have. Thank you!
I'm glad you found it useful!
I just sold my 2005 Golf TDI with 490,000 km and still running. I figure that it will easily get to 600,000 km. The guy that bought it was a mechanic and rust was not an issue. He bought it because of the fuel efficiency, I was still getting 5l/100km.
I think cars would last longer if people had them serviced regularly and had them repaired even if they're past 10 years.
@@RobertBeriault753 Besides the TDI I had a 1985 carbureted Honda Prelude and had it for 18 years and 580,000 km. The rust took her. .
Damn rust!
When you initially referred to size of motor I thought you were talking about physical size rather than power rating. Physical size does matter because it effect ability to dissipate heat (if your motor was physically larger could it have reduced the likelihood of the gears melting?).
The other issue not mentioned is the far more comprehensive regular services a car gets compared to an eBike motor. If there had been problems with a belt in the car motor part way through the expected lifespan of the car motor that could have been fixed without replacing the entire engine; yet when your eBike motor gears got worn out it was seen as end of life for that motor.
I should have mentioned that a motor with a heavy mass has more ability to absorb and dissipate heat, which should have a protecting effect for the susceptible components like gears and electrical parts.
For can engines, it's so easy to change the oil.
Maybe compare electric motors to electric motors for e-bike vs ev.
Electric motorcycle vs electric pedalbike might be better. The more weight you carry the more power you need .
A motor hasn't really failed if you simply need to replace a few cheap and readily available parts. These gears can often cost just a few dollars for a full set.
True. A motor shouldn't be scrapped just because labour cost is too expensive.
Its a bit of a tricky subject , a good one though , because there are just so many variables, all machines be it electric motors or car engines are not always built to the same quality IE: how long is a piece of string.
Then you have how much load they are pulling , as well as how they are maintained .
Even the climate they are operating in can have a bearing on life expectancy especially with electric motors which do not like excessive heat.
Even how the person uses the gears if it has them , and or how much the person assists the motor with pedal power can make a difference.
Cars engines these days are mostly autos which detect load and automatically change ratios which not only benefits the longevity of the engine but gives optimal fuel usage , because electric motors with no gears cannot reduce the strain on them , all they can do is add more electricity or reduce it which is not the best.
This is another reason why heavy diesel commercial vehicles can last a million miles if well used and well maintained.
And as you pointed out , small motors under severe load for longer periods are very likely to have a much shorter life span.
I have a heavy trike with motor assist , I chose a big heavy duty mid drive motor , to pull my big carcass and heavy trike , mines a mid drive motor, and I still try and use the gears so as to not make it work too hard , particularly on hills .
Hills are another thing than can overheat e bike motors if pushed hard shortening their service life.
Thanks for sharing your insights, you've outlined a really complex set of variables!
Comparing mileage isn't really appropriate, as cars are designed to go on long trips. E-bikes would be much more favorable if you compare HOURS used. That's how you measure airplane usage, racing motor usage, etc.
That's a valid point. I'll have to think about that. Thanks.
Yeah, let me tell you: The hours spent going
This is exactly why i bought a direct drive ebike
Great choice!
My Ebike is now 14 years old. With the first Motor and i even have the first battery. A second battery i bought after 5 years. But the first still runs. My last combustine car engine lasted only 140.000 km and then it was game over. Electric cars lasts a lot more, and even tha batteries last for 300.000-600.000 km till it is at 80% capacity
Interesting. Thank you for sharing.
There are a lot of variables when it comes to E bikes. How often it's used, the weight of the person using it. How often you use it at higher speeds without any pedal assistance etc. Starting and stopping frequently can't help the motor either in a city setting. But I think the main one is just plain old weight. An average person weighing about 150lbs vs either an over weight or some one carrying a heavy load making it weigh over 200lbs+ put massively different strain on the bike.
My ebike has hybrid metal + plastic gears in the hub. Maybe a little more noisy, but certainly not "loud".
Allegedly they should last longer than straight nylon gears.
I wish your ebike and you a long life!
@RobertBeriault753 Thank you Robert.
I have seen these, I do plenty of off road and jumping on my ebike. Do you also? I was thinking about these hyrbid gears in copper and nylon. Have you noticed any more strength when doing wheelies? I like to wheelie too and am worried about my only nylon gears.
the audio is terribly "muffled" here. sorry. had to stop, sadly 😞
That's unfortunate. Thanks for trying.
DirectDrive is heavier. Making ebike a rough ride suspension.
Everything has it's downsides.
Wow, this is scary news, If I were to start using an e-bike I will need a replacement motor every two years.
If you ride that much, you'd need a direct drive motor.
Chances are you will not have to replace the entire motor, but if you have the geared version, you will have to replace the gears which isn't that hard to do.
@@justinw1765 Thank you for the info.
@@MrCyclist oh, and take the motor apart every so often to check matters - and put some grease on the gears, then.
Mobil-28 (aircraft grease) is said to be good. I have used this in mine. Really helps keep things *quiet.*
When it comes to cars, most Japanese cars will make it to 300K miles with no major issues. Domestic cars seem to be between 100-200K miles depending on brand and other factors.
I once had a Honda Civic that was at 300K miles when i sold it. Still ran great. It used a bit of oil but it ran and drive and still had decent power. During its lifetime, to the best of my knowledge, no major repairs of the engine or transmission. 1989 model year.
I have a Nissan 720 pickup with about 300K miles on it. Runs great. Only real issues were some electrical wire frays, body rust, and radiator corrosion. 1985 model year.
Then there was the time I had Ford Focus (forgot the year model). It had a major ECU issue at 90K miles. Major suspension issues at around 100K miles. Piece of junk.
I said I might suffer from Toyota bias. But the bias is based on real world experience and experience of people like you.
my bicycle has 100oookm...
I've seen metal clad plastic gears...not sure if they help though.
The comparison with cars works out ok, but a comparison with ebikes with different power motors probably won't support that argument. Here in Australia, 250W (1/3hp) is the maximum legal power, so by your reckoning these should last 1/3 of the equivalent 1 hp bikes from the US. I'd argue that less power with the same drive system should make Australian ebike motors last longer.
Excellent point! Because often it's the very same motor that's configured to operate differently.
Thanks.
I guess you just need to factor in replacing the plastic gears at a set mileage, before they go. And really the shop / manufacturer should tell you this.
Right!
It's gonna depend a _lot_ more on how\where you ride, than how many miles. A mile on a rocky trail & a mile on a paved road, are simply not comparable.
People often _say_ that over 15KpH, aero rules, but in reality, *_terrain_* is the undisputed king, when it comes to limitations like speed, range, & wear & tear.
Regarding the comparison of e-cars with e-bikes. I'm looking forward to direct drive hubmotors in cars. I believe elimination of gears in cars will eliminate almost all moving parts, including possibly brakes. Steering will probably remain the most mechanically complex parts. Also one thing you didn't mention is the efficiency gain with direct drive motors. Gears are rather inefficient in comparison to direct drive. Bring on AWD direct drive hub motors in cars. Economy cars can also be built with 2WD for cost savings.
Aside from the efficiency you mention, they can regenerate power and save wear on brakes.
doesn't tesla already do that.
My bike t 60.000km single cylinder 110cc had liner and piston replaced. Currently at 90k. "Recharges" in 30s.
And the gas tank never gets smaller as it ages!😜
Robert... I have the bafang BBSHD 1000w mid-drive on my recumbent trike...
Before installing it i opened up the plate under the Sprocket.. that revealed the Reduction Gear...
At the factory they put cheap grease..
So I packed "Black" "Moly grease with lithium 2 ".. The moly grease must be the black grease. and it must be the lithium 2.. this protects the plastic gears in the motor..
This will prolong the motor life.. by making the motor run more cool,smoother and faster..
A faster spinning motor with lower torque will keep it cool and preserve the motor.. I now have over 14k miles on my trike.. and every year, i have more of the black Moly grease with lithium packed in the gears.. My motor runs quiet and smooth. Lower gear, higher power is the way to go.. Lugging down a motor will cause the controller to burn out or cause the motor to fail. I always run lower gear higher power.. and that also increases my range.. Lugged down over burdened motors suck up Watts and lower range while causing damage to an electric motor.. PEACE
Very sensible advice. Thank you.
Did similar with mine, only used Mobil-28 (red) aircraft grease.
I need to secure more in the foreseeable future.
Yeah I just put 17,000 miles on my Juiced Rip current S... Zero problems. Zero maintenance rides like new
Oh and if the motor takes her s*** I'll replace it for 400 bucks. Yeah that
That's very good.
One trick to extend electric motor lifespan is put ATF oil in it. It transfer heat to case.
What's ATF?
@@elisfsharri Red oil for automatic gearbox.
Grin technologies sells a special oil for this purpose (for direct drive motors only) called Statorade at two buck per ml.
Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms, of course!
Oh, & I guess it _also_ stands for Automatic Transmission Fluid...
@@elisfsharri ATF is automatic transmission fluid. In car transmissions electronic actuators and open wiring connectors have been used for decades. And work well.
I'm noticing that nobody who raves about their direct-drive motor ever mentions the brand of the e-bike or company who makes the motor.
C'mon guys.
We want to know!
Of the more than 500 comments on this video to date, very few people have mentioned the make or the maker.
If a car engine ran at near to full speed constantly it probably wouldn't last 200,000 miles
Right. Cars aren't used in a manner that makes them work as hard as bike motors. The majority of the time they're working at a fraction of their capacity.
It's why engines on 50cc scooters have a short service intervals. There's a lot being asked of a 1 1/2 inch diameter piston to carry the weight of the bike, it's rider, and the rider's cargo (even more demanding on 4 strokes). Couple it with them being speed governed often with a restrictor in the CVT to limit the gear range, those tiny engine are constantly running at around 7500 RPM just to do their legal speed limit (Often 35 MPH). It why I took the restrictor out of one of my scooters because it felt like I was about to blow the motor just to do 35 MPH.
full speed for an e bike should not be a problem at all, a car a lt full speed is much more demanding for the car.
@@rotorblade9508hopefully you understood the point I was making though.
Dont get your e bike wet, race up steep hills or jump them, shocking the hub gears. Thats my plan
The ebikes that I have owned have waterproof connections and have never had a problem in the rain, even when they sat all night in a raging storm. But if you never expose your bike to water, you're sure not to have moisture issues. As for riding easy, that will allow the motor to live a longer, happy life. Thanks for your comment.
Darn, I do like to off road, jump and take steep climbs. Should I go to copper/nylon hybrid gears. What fun is a bike if one never jumps it?