Watching a tekken player with 10 minutes of experience doing 22 electrics in a row and commenting "well, standing electrics aren't that hard to begin with" is the most mishima player thing to say 😂
I believe capcom banned daigos mixbox , not evo . I could be mistaken but i recall the ban being issued by capcom for capcom cup edit; combo breaker did ban it
daigos controller had more than 2 directionals without socd cleaning. that is complete cheating. the crossup has the same properties as a pad function wise
I have extra tissue on my finger from doing electrics so that my hand doesn't bruise when I play (the body's natural response apparently). This is not a joke. You have to experience pain to play. Which sounds edgy but its the fuckin' truth of the matter.
electrics are a big reason i can't be arsed to play mishimas, i'd rather not go through all that effort for what should just be a fucking DP motion and i'd rather play someone who highlights mental play over physical dexterity
On pad with the right setup, electrics are easy. I nailed 25 electrics in a row after less than a day of practice. I have good execution. Ban pad tho, right? I shouldn’t be able to do 25 in a row without a significant amount of practice, as I’m not a Tekken player. Thing is I have no clue when to do electrics (much more important). OGs have that all important experience. I’m not sure why everyone is scared of better tools like it will suddenly level the field. I think it’s more about people being butthurt that they put in all this time to learn a skill, and others simply found a better way to do it. 🤔
Thanks for saying this. I dont feel as bad now since I have been trying for last eight months or so and still cant get them consistent at all and frustrated to point of just leaving jin alone. But the best say it took them years to get good and some lucky ones can get it in months.
Specifically for Tekken where you only need the four face buttons for attacks, you can do this double input thing on pad as well by binding the shoulder buttons to directional inputs. Just bind R1 to forward and push triangle and R1 simultaneously. Or on stick, bind the third top row to forward (on the PS4/Steam button binder).
Not even close to comparable. At the end of the day, games _are_ their control schemes, so when you create an alternative control scheme, something is lost. Controllers vs fight sticks were comparable. Fight sticks had some small advantages, controllers had some advantage, but they were largely comparable, with most of the better players being on stick simply do to historical factors. This is your little brother as a controller waving his black, plastic fingers in your face saying, "I'm not cheating, not cheating yet~" because he's engineered the skill floor out of the device.
I mean I know it's a year later but people who play on keyboard already have been able to do this. At least during the online game I can use my wasd keys for movement, along with the arrow keys and numb pad all at the same time
Yah but that sounds awkward as fuck. Same with ppl saying you can do this with a DS4...like yah with fucking mutant hands. These hitboxes are designed to naturally and easily allow game breaking movement.
@@Tartersauce101 i mean its a little weird on keyboard but on DS4 that shit's easy. There are plenty of people out there who actually prefer claw than regular grip and even for people who dont like claw, its still not a hard thing to do if your fingers are somewhat dextrous. Not to say anything about the fairness of it, just that it's not hard to do and if we ban hitboxes, then it'd only; be fair to ban ds4's or at least make it to where on ds4 you have to disable either dpad or stick so you only have one input
I don't even consider myself the most dedicated Tekken player and even this sort of makes me question its introduction. I get things like the mixbox: It still requires directional input, and defo easier than stick, it still has a chance of human error. Something like this defeats the purpose of actually y'know... Playing the game? People who defend it don't see why it's not really in the spirit of things. Being able to be good at something (which I admittedly, am not) requires time, dedication and also it's meant to be the way to enjoy it. Sure nowadays not everyone is willing to play stick, but as long as what you have doesn't have an immediate inherit advantage (for example, compare a pad with turbo function vs one without in a game like Mario Party or something) then it still is putting effort into the game. Twenty two electrics at the repeated press of a single button? Who knows what this will be used for and certainly will just make players who have played the game with arcade sticks, keyboards without macro and whatnot, leave because what's the point of dedication, when all you need to do is press a few buttons without any real input from your own end. How can one distinguish from actual skill to someone just using glorified macros if this becomes widespread? Price doesn't seem to be an issue for a lot of players who would rather seek an immediate advantage over putting time into improving.
@@sebaschan-uwu What if a PWD with less then 10 fingers that was cut off or crushed by an accident or 10 fingers but one of his fingers is pretty much dead, use this to play in tournaments? now it's suddenly an honorable tool cause it helps the PWD bridge the gap without sacrificing it to be a macro, this is almost no different from medical tool advancement, like we use to only have walking sticks for amputees, now we have prosthetics, some are even designed to make amputees run. but does that make them invincible from making mistakes like falling over? I don't know what's the difference, one still has to press/move the stick/buttons the same number of times. down forward 1, is still gonna be pressed down forward 1 on that. One button doing one thing can't be cheating. Besides, if everyone gets a cross-up, it's back to fundamentals and muscle-memory.
im someone who has used a pad,hitbox and arcade stick im am perfectly fine with how these type of controllers. Most of these games are very technically deep which is good but some of this stuff is almost impossible to pull off because the rotations or inputs have to be 100% accurate which then leaves to moves not being used rarely or at all. But with a hitbox alot of these moves are now viable go watch some of the combo videos on the hitboxes channel and you can see some of the crazy things these games are capable of allowing.
Making a controller is easy but tekken still requires a high level of intuition and instinct to win. You can't be completely brain dead and make your way up the ranks. That can never be circumvented
Let me smash your hand with a hammer and tell you to play mishimas after and see how it goes? If player A is forced to dedicate 200 hours into doing something player B doesn't, player B can use that time to do other things. It's like saying steroids are ok or adding nitro to your car because a human is involved.
@@Aroused_Pineapple OK. Not sure the point you are trying to make. Because it doesn't refute my statement. Technique usually always loses to knowledge.
The issue is more so the fact that some of these moves are behind executional barriers seemingly for a balance reason. Maybe it isn’t actually the case, but there’s no doubt that a Cross Up gives you a HUGE advantage in the tekken 7 system
I understand that they're trying to make one of the hardest games easier to play, but the difficulty is what makes Tekken Tekken. If you win a race with a self driving car, did you really win?
a self driving car is the equivalent of a macro. a newer controller that makes it easier to win is the equivalent of a new state of the art engine, transmission, gearbox etc
Exactly. U may call it elitist attitude but to quote Tom Hanks from A League of Their Own, "of course it's hard. It's SUPPOSED to be hard. It's the hard that makes this game so great. If it were fucking easy then everyone would be able to do it!!!". Noone seems to understand this, which is why TTT2 failed, bc it was too damn hard despite being a fantastic Tekken game. People just want to achieve great feats without putting in the work and game devs want more $ and attract more players so they dumb down the game like they did in T7. SMDH
Cheating no,this Hitbox Crossup controller just has shortcuts to doing the input,it's not like the player is pressing one button and doing a wind god fist,a gohado, goshoryu & tatsu.if you've played streetfighter you know guile's charge moves can be done on pad and analog stick some players will charge for the sonicboom then quickly charge for the flashkick if you want to ban the hitbox cross-up ban the standard ps4,Xbox&nintendo pro controller too because it can be done using those too.they are just as legal as a standard hitbox, mixbox,fightstick, keyboard etc.
Fighting games was like playing an instrument , you practice and repeat over and over to make “music “. Now people want the instrument to play the music itself.
Fighting games have been getting more and more user friendly as it is. Sadly, people have lost the dedication and just want to pick up and win or be rewarded for nothing, and not only have game developers done this when it comes to fighting games, but now people are looking to extend it to the controller as well. Fighting games were never intended to be easy. They were always seen as a genre that is difficult to pick up and now that's lost, where skilled players are no longer being rewarded for all their time that they have put into the game, as the newer players are being spoonfed
bluelion7342 Yeah that sounds pretty stupid last time I checked every generation prior has increasing had it easier than the previous generation because of advancement in technology done by said generation. Can’t really take people serious when they say dumb things like that.
@Roy Sunshine even if you have it, you yourself won't even be able to compete especially for Tekken, you're already swapping for easy execution cuz you don't wanna have to work to get good at it. What makes you think you'll learn strings or basic Tekken fundementals properly? you'll probably quit
I feel it also showcases problems with building things to heavily on good execution rather than good decision making. In Tekken an electric is a pretty safe option most of the time yes if you get to predictable they could duck it but being to predictable with any move is a bad idea unless its truly broken. Whereas say a DP in SF is an incredibly powerful move but it can be punished hard if blocked making it a lot more risky. I preferred SF2s balancing mentality where inputs were made to limit how often you could do them and from what state i.e retreating, walking forward, crouching, standing etc and to their power. From a personal standpoint I am much more interested in decisions made in fighters than execution. Allowing people to get to a good baseline of execution imo just helps lower the skill floor and helps to raise the skill ceiling because players now cannot rely on better execution to give them a substantial advantage they have to out think the opponent instead and ofc have knowledge of the game like usual. There is still room for execution to shine however because sticks like this wont be able to account for timing such as linking attacks although thats more of a 2D fighter thing (they can still plink as usual though). Whether its banned or not is largely irrelevant to me I mean people could still use it offline and abuse it but then they could just set up macros on PC if they are that way inclined and make it even easier. To give a true even ground you would have to enforce a control type and that is not going to be fair to those who have played for years on another. At tournament level execution is usually at a high enough standard I feel that a controller like this will make little odds although I could very well be wrong.
i completely agree with this. i feel like execution shouldn't be the be all end all barrier between tiers of competitive players. execution is important to defining characters tiers but i feel like the higher tier players want it to have more of a barrier to entry for other players aspiring to be pros than just fundamentals or decision making strategy.
@@Bageer1 What makes fighting games unique as a genre to me is that they combine playing smarter _with_ playing harder. Execution takes discipline and dedication, which, probably not coincidentally, are also crucial to proficiency in martial arts in the real world.
You contradicted yourself in the same posts. You like how dps are balanced by locking them behind a hard input but don’t like Electrics for the same reason? Also in most Tekken games you could not just duck but sidestep the electric as well. It was never meant to be a safe move to just put out there.
ewgf is always difficult as long as u have 1 set of directional inputs, like on kb u can set second set of inputs for ur right hand and get pewgf almost everytime, because u dont have to sync both hands actions, doing simultaneous inputs with one hand is much easier.
i'm getting tired of stuff like "hey you struggling to beat this game, don't have time to train don't wanna learn the fundamental , wanna slap gamers who wasted their life mastering the game. just spend on this and you will be the same level as them" This is what Modern gaming has become
>pewgf macro >fundamentals If you can't slap the shit out of someone who hasn't learned the fundamentals, NO MATTER WHAT FUCKING MACROS THEY USE, I'm sorry to say it, but you haven't mastered the game, you actually suck.
A pad has two directional inputs with the analog and d-pad which can in fact be used together in most games, albeit clumsily. All this does is make it more intuitive to take advantage of that, just as the input layout on a stick is arguably more intuitive than on a pad; it's not something otherwise impossible to achieve. I fail to see how this could be considered cheating.
you can do that super easily on xbox pads btw, since the stick is above the dpad. you can have your indexfinger hugging the stick without problems while using a regular gamepad grip and then you can just pull the stick down and press b on dpad for super quick and insanely easy kbds or qcircles.
it's impossible to hold back and just press forward to back-dash. It's basically a macro, you only have to move one finger to do something that requires a complex technic.
2 years late but you can literally just turn it off for pads, Tekken Tag 2 only allowed you to use the analog stick or the d-pad, you physically cannot do that on the cross up or hitbox. Is it cheating? I don’t know, but I don’t think this a valid argument.
if you use the pad on pc you can technically make it three directional inputs at once if you bind the right analog stick partially and partially the left analog stick, albeit awkward.
They wanna treat fighting games like all those games that give you rewards easily to “feel good” but nothing feels better then seeing your actual practice and dedication paying off. If this goes through, fighting games will die out in the long run
Hey watch me not give a fuck, and use a cross up to do 22 electrics. 😆 you can go back to practice, and electric until your wrist falls off I'm gonna go sip a brewski.
@@DreGamingNetwork A controller like this makes the game more accessible to people... I support it fully even though I may never use it myself but it is legal does not do anything to give the other player am unfair advantage... Unfair advantage would be where on a controller you can just assign electric god fist command to a single button... And on this controller you still require execution just that the motion of your hands is widely different Doesn't mean anything... It is still execution...
@@nayyarrashid4661 man its a fair point but... Not legal in tournaments, in competitive play there's no sense to make this tournament legal... People at tournaments are not new to the game
Learned Lee and Lars on pad and got their execution and punishment down and it took work, Lee especially. I have to agree that this simplification will make Tekken lose its identity of being a reward for being good with technique and execution based game. Might negatively impact all fighters as a whole. Maybe.
I like how people argue that a pad player can use a stick and dpad at the same time while forgetting the Crossup allows for directional inputs on either hand
So is keyboard. And it also allows attacks inputs on both hands. And this was intentional thing by the developers that you can configure 2 sets of keyboard controls that controls a single character.
8:16 It's been a long time since I've seen disappointment as genuine as this. As a newbie Tekken player ( having like 400 hours in the game), I can only begin to comprehend what you feel. I'm still constantly learning new things in the game, and that too with just one character. I learn to do something new, implement something differently, almost every week of playing. This breaks the game for me. This should not be allowed at all. Hard moves need to be hard to do, and that is the way the game has been designed.
Damn you're still learning new shit with 400 hours?? I've been playin for like 10 hours and I kinda got like 1 string with lars I guess? I feel like I can learn quick cause I beat the story on medium 1st try and I heard it was hard as hell
Shiloh King Man,what wrong with winning story mode,is very easy. Only Devil Kaz and Akuma are strong. If you beat it at hard without losing a fight or round,that really impressive,but that unbelievable
Why not just balance these moves? Hard to execute moves are stupid imo, like with time and effort execution stops being a problem and as a result players just get overpowered move without downsides. It doesnt make player more impressive imo.
I agree that having more than one set of direction inputs seems like a clear place to draw the line. Mixbox is an advantage but I dont think it's an unfair one.
@@PoopFarter1and controllers have analogue sticks and dpads. That doesn’t mean they’re capable of having the same effect as the cross up. The cross up is designed to abuse using two directional inputs at once while keyboards and controllers have different options based on preference and comfort. There is a line and the cross up lived up to its name
@@TheTrueDude In other words, controllers are not designed tech for the game and are not optimal at all. Because they aren't. Fighting games are the most competitive games in the world. Why should anyone have to use out dated, unoptimized hardware to play? We don't see F1 drivers being forced to use cars from the 90's. It's all different tech now. They have to bide by the rules, as do we (SOCD). Quite literally, all these controllers are doing is moving inputs that already exist around. Splitting the DPad up and putting it in a more convenient spot. That is absolutely it.
Why don’t boxers use loaded gloves? Why shouldn’t they? Why shouldn’t they use corked bats in the MLB? It really doesn’t matter how fallacious your argument is you guys might as well be using macros if you want this lame piece of trash. Why don’t you just use macros seriously? Anyone who uses this piece of garbage is going to get sideways looks nobody will respect that it’s not just about getting wins it’s about the sanctity of the game.
I seriously amaze when i see jdcr win with heihachi because of his execution, if people use mishima with crossup and win, i didnt know if im going to be as amaze
Dont blame hitbox, all of this can already be done on pad. Fighting game developers should simply disable allowing use of both analog and dpad at the same time.
no it cant lmao i dont know if you ever seen a pad but you cant click two directions at the same time.. making korean dashing literally perfect on hitbox forgot to mention you completely erased how hard it is to do a 14 frame electric..
TMM I don't want to be devils advocate or anything, but I would really love to see you getting that CrossUp and trying out wavedash and PEWGFs and giving first hand impressions how much it's bullshit and how big of an advantage you get compared to stick
@@sodiumoverdrive1507 They're super easy though, first time I tried out Tekken I did a couple dozen in a row much to a friend's annoyance. If you have any experience with timing at all it's super easy. Things like PEWGF are a little bit harder, without ever practicing them I was getting one PEWGF every 4-5 attempts since my DP inputs were fast anyways (I play anime fighters). Both of those things are relatively easy and not really indicative of the tool. The Korean Backdash is much easier on pad/keyboard/hitbox/crossup, that's true, but it only takes about a week to learn on *any* input method.
@@Julietmateus That's a cool story but if you really have the kind of natural talent you claim you do how come I've never seen you at any tournaments? The first time you tried Tekken you did 24 electrics in a row and then learnt Korean backdashing in a week on a normal pad? So surely by now you've mastered the game at a competitive level no?
Spooky TV no you’re just being an asshole. Being talented does not mean you have to compete. Are you one of those guys that get angry in player lobbies because someone who has no rank who only plays in player lobbies and not ranked beat your ass? Then calls them out for not having a rank? I’ve encountered too many egotistical twats like that. Leave the man alone. Do you know how many amazing players are out there? The same is for the real world. Freaks and talented people exist, theres is probably someone out there way faster than Bolt himself, he just hasnt had the chance in life or opportunities to compete or doesnt want to. Grow up.
The thing that gets me is that if this becomes the default 'best' controller for people to play on, what is that gonna look like for new players. If they see everyone who's good at the game using one of these, they'll feel like they have to be using one of these in order to be on a level playing field with others, and considering the price of these sticks I imagine that would put a lot of people who are interested in taking the game seriously off.
The problem with this idea is that it is unlikely to happen considering the same thing has already happened with pads. It seems like most informed players agree that pad is better for Tekken than stick. However; most top players still play on stick since that’s what they are used to, especially those with an arcade background. Even if crossup becomes more prominent, they will likely still use stick. There is a good point in that new players see what top players use and think it gives an advantage. It’s the case with sticks rn too but they usually learn that isn’t the case by the time they reach an intermediate level.
I'm sure that there were palms greased in the right areas to let this happen. I'm not sure how this is different than using the pad and joystick on a console remote at the same time other than being less awkward. As far as the Hitbox/Mixbox multi-input advantage goes, it doesn't exist. Simultaneous input scrubbers are pretty standard in control boards these days.
It sucks cuz pulling off electrics is so satisfying BECAUSE it’s hard and it’s the payoff of that labor but you lose out on the journey of practice and the intrinsic motivation of being a good player
We should ban any advancements that make any sport or esport more approachable we can use leather football helmets and take all the ball bearings out of yoyo competitions because those weren't there originally
Evolution and progress doesn't care what you are used to or not. Get use to this type of shit in every game, what you once took year to execute with consistency now every player that starts playing the game will have access to technology that will helped them do it in minutes. Especially with AI now, stuff like this will level the playing field in the below average / Average players. Btw didn't you literally advertised the mix box: ''The point I'm trying to make is that the mix box very early on, grant you access to advanced execution'' Before anyone asks I play with ps5 controller.
It makes sense. U dont see football players using magnetic balls with magnetic shoes. Excecution is a heavy part of fightinggames... you cant take it out bcs it will be the beginning of the end.
That's a poor analogy. A closer analogy is more sticker gloves or more better shoes over times (which of course does). Such things are standardized; so is this.
Everyone is forgetting that most alternatives to the traditional stick have their drawbacks: keyboard/mixbox fall short when executing half/full circle inputs (720s are impossible imo) and pads have invariable button placements with only one set of usable directional inputs. The crossup controller is ergonomic, intuitive and allows players to execute inputs at the upper limits of efficiency. I'll admit mixbox and mechanical keyboards are unfairly advantageous in comparison to a pad because of the ability to press back and forward simultaneously and some shortcuts which aren't possible on pad. (SF example is frame perfect DP into double QCF super.) But this is another level of broken, crossup lowering the overall execution barrier in this way circumvents the developers' intent and subsequently adds a paywall, not concerning the quality of equipment but the functionality. This is particularly problematic for newcomers into fighting games, especially those with higher execution requirements because it'll come down to buying your advantage and not earning it. That's my lengthy fucking 2 cents. TL;DR Cross-Up>>>>>>Mixbox>=Keyboard=Arcade Stick>Pad IMO
Fighting game's legacy are arcade halls, with arcade stick controls. The moves are designed with that in mind. I wouldnt be against tournaments actually being exclusively played on cabinets. Though, I see people might not want to spend $150-200 to just play a game they've paid for, so I'll swallow the fact that ordinary controllers could be used during tournament play. But I'm still against assigning unique hotkeys etc. If a move is hard to do, it's because it's supposed to be hard to do. Allowing this controller would be like adding those console aim-assisting features into something like Counter strike so people just have to tap an aimkey to get an instant lock and track feature.
You think Tekken is throwing perfect electrics? Like its a rhytm game? Its that simple to be good at it. You can backdash and electric insta Emeper or rank
I don't understand why people keep moving the goal posts. This controller allows really difficult things to be executed with no difficulty. It's cheating, that's all there is to it.
The fact that EVO is allowing this is super shady to me. There have been multiple instances where controllers that are custom made to have additional directional buttons have been banned. It seems very odd to me that all of a sudden, a company pays money to have a booth at EVO and their controller get the green light despite being more egregious than other custom made controllers that do similar things. Take Tokido's stick from back in SF4. It had a button for select plinking (Which was super common back then. A lot of people shifted the six button layout to the right by one button and got rid of their macro buttons in order to change the light buttons to select. PRBalrog was a notable player that used this setup) and it also had an additional 'up' button for U2 cancels with Akuma. Banned. Despite having 3 less directional inputs than the CrossUp and a button that was already on the stick just moved to a different position. FullSchedule ran into a similar prob at FR17 when Fchamp cried about him having 2 additional directional buttons in order to do burn kick cancels with Viper. Banned (They made him remove the buttons mid tourney). Despite having 2 less directinal inputs than the CrossUp. And most recently Daigo's GafroBox which to my knowledge has the same amount of additional buttons as the CrossUp, just with hitbox layout instead of stick, got banned. Now to be fair, to my knowedge, EVO has never specifically banned any of the controllers mentioned above. Those decisions were made by TOs of smaller majors. But I feel that if there's anywhere where EVO should start to draw the line, it's here. Especially when you consider that the whole reason why this controller is so good for doing inputs is because it has asynchronous SOCD. I'm all for someone making a controller that's more comfortable for them (I made a hitbox with all keyboard keys for that exact reason), but this controller is a bad look. So here's a quick heads up to everyone who plays on hitbox like I do: If you thought the played out "CheatBox" memes were bad before, brace for impact because it's only gonna get worse from here.
like damn did y'all miss the memo on the fact that a PS4 pad is the original cross up Pad players have legitimately been doing Cross Up Stick inputs for a decade right in front of everyone and people just said "that's so smart"
@@trinilawman9744 Pretty much. SonicFox even hopped on twitter to highlight the fact that the DS4's buttons can be remapped in the console's settings. He remapped all of the shoulder buttons (L1/L2/R1/R2) to be up, down, left, and right respectively so that you could use 2 methods of directional input simultaneously without having to shift your thumb anywhere. Zero complaints from the community on that. The biggest problem with all of these methods is the asynchronous SOCD, which is unfortunately pretty damn hard to check for since most of the time it's handled by the PCB of the controller and the game is none the wiser. So if devs tried to patch their game's input handling to deal with it, it would only affect a very small portion of controllers. In other words, it's not worth the hassle. Even if TOs started checking sticks and pads by plugging them into something that can read the inputs (no way in hell they're going through all that effort) and determining whether or not SOCD is enabled, a lot of PCBs have SOCD as optional. For example on my PCB (Brook UFB), you can turn SOCD on by shorting the J2_4 and J2_5 pins. Slap a switch on that connection and boom. You got into the tourney with SOCD enabled. The whole situation is pretty sticky and I'm curious to see how TOs start dealing with this stuff going forward.
I just get aware of how unfair are these kinds of controllers. Now I don't want to see tournaments knowing this, I don't see the point to do it. But I will organize again a tournament someday without those controllers.
@@germancastano2241 I know my comments made it seem like I don't like these controllers, but honestly I don't want any of them banned. I just want TO's to enforce the rules consistently. If you ban controllers like the crossup, you have to ban pad as well because the things that crossup allows have always been possible on pad. Likewise, if you allow pad, you have to allow the crossup. The problem I have is with TO's banning one controller, but not another one, even if they do they same thing which they perceive as an unfair advantage. There is no such thing as a controller that is objectively better than another controller. The only thing that changes is how comfortable the person using it is, and even that changes depending on the game, and the character being played. Play a charge character? Hitbox is usually going to be faster and more consistent than stick, but only by 1-2 frames max on charge inputs. Play a grappler? SPD inputs are generally going to be faster and more consistent on stick than hitbox, but only by about 1-2 frames max again. etc. What people choose to use as their controller ultimately comes down to picking the right tool for the job depending on what/who they play. Tekken is an odd example because it relies so heavily on single direction inputs, which generally favors hitbox/crossup (for most characters), but a bunch of other games can either favor stick or pad depending on your gameplan. As long as your controller only allows 1 ingame bind per button (you can't bind a combination that the game won't allow or a sequence of buttons), you should be allowed to use whatever you want in my opinion. If you think that one controller should be banned for a specific reason, then any controller that has the same options should also be banned, which means that the only controller allowed would be stick since it has the simplest input layout. What your opponent is able to do with their execution, regardless of how easy/hard it might be depending on their controller isn't your opponent's problem. It's yours. Each person's options, execution, and consistency are unique to them, and them alone, regardless of their controller. As long as your controller follows the basic rules that any controller should follow, there is no competitive advantage over another controller because nothing is preventing your opponent from using a controller that suits their needs just as well as yours, no matter what that controller might be. Banning controllers is silly in my opinion.
@@AllViolenceNoSilence It's not true. Crossup allows things that are impossible in a pad or Joystick. There is a big amount of shortcuts, and those shortcuts are possible because the crossup/hitbox changes the logic by which the game was developed. To do two or more back dashes in a row, you press and hold back and then tap forward, that is basically a macro because with one tap you do something that requires two taps. This kind of mini-macros can be integrated to do a very complex movement, there are so many levels, and players still are discovering new shortcuts. In a pad, if you hold the back bottom no matter how many times you tap forward a back dash the character never is going to back dash, from that point any shortcut is just impossible in a pad. In your own words a hitbox/crossup must be banned because "you can bind a combination that the game won't allow"
People are talking about how execution shouldn't be a barrier in fighting games but that's one of the aspects that gives it depth. If everyone could do 6 ewgfs or microdashes or play Lee then those things would innately not be impressive. Since some of you guys have such a dumb view of it lemme give you an example. In soccer, seeing someone kick a curve ball is impressive because A. It's hard and B. It's useful Obviously the stronger something is the harder it should be for you to have access to it. If everyone could just ask the ball to curve then there would be no legendary soccer players ever. Saying how using execution as a means of preventing access from stronger moves is wrong is stupid. This controller is the same as giving yourself an extra set of hands in a boxing match. Sure, Muhammad Ali would whoop your weak ass trying to flail your arms like a dying toddler but you lasted an extra round on ring because of these arms
Seems like it makes the execution barrier lower which is a good thing, it allows people to get to the interesting part of fighting games quicker. Having two sets of directional inputs also isn't any different from what a pad provides, so I don't think it can be considered cheating for that reason, unless we're to call pads cheating as well. Controllers should be designed for optimal performance, no sense in maintaining artificial difficulty that keeps people from getting into the meat of the game by forcing people to use obsolete input methods.
The issue is that this controller doesn't actually do anything that a standard PS/Xbox isn't able to. The problem is that developers started letting their game accept directional inputs from both the Thumb Stick and the D-Pad simultaneously instead of hard restricting it to one via button config (like older games did). The worst offender I'm aware of was Persona 4 Arena. That game was programmed such that D-Pad inputs would override Thumb Stick inputs, effectively allowing you to dynamically redefine the neutral position. This combined poorly with a lenient input detection system and allowed you to do things such as holding down on the left stick then double tapping back on the pad to get an instant double quarter circle motion out of a backdash... which was particularly egregious in a game where you auto blocked on mistimed instant block attempts. In essence if their pressure string wasn't perfect you could simply instant block backdash super to punish for 0 execution cost. The only thing stopping you was that this technique was so far beyond awkward that very few people ever considered trying it. I believe even to this day it's still not widely known that this type of thing was possible.
Imagine F1 with some cars fitted with ABS while some without ABS. Drivers with ABS equipped can slam on the brakes all they want without locking the wheels while the other drivers without ABS equipped are exposed to making execution errors during their braking, thus giving the drivers with ABS equipped an unfair advantage in terms of driving abilities required. It would be ridiculous and the whole competition would be a joke. This is the same thing.
Y'know, I can sympathise. Anyone who's dedicated years, even over a decade to mastering inputs and execution in fighting games must feel this is a slap in the face. And I get that completely. But keep in mind guys - fighting games are a niche. And even if the FGC pulls in lots of viewers and hype, actual game sales are comparatively low. If you don't sell games, you can't make more games. And I don't feel controller design is something that had to be set in stone, adaptation and evolution is consistent in video-game design (this generation notwithstanding), why should that adage not apply to hardware? One last point - as the FGC is niche, there's lots of old philosophy, ideas and execution from legacy players. So why not open things up, get new blood in the community? With new execution, new theories, new meta? This seems like a great way to achieve that, at the cost of some execution. It might be a good thing, could change the focus of fighting games from challenging execution to application of said execution. I suppose the true test is wether or not you're going to see whifs and dropped combos with this type of controller. I suspect you will - execution is not just input, it's also positioning and spacing from the opponent.
THIS KILLS DF2 into PEWGF hype.. Hey Mainman, I actually pretty much modded one of my TE's with the cross up layout. Don't know if you'll see this but I'd love to send it to you maybe to play on and get your opinion as I'm trying to piece a video together when the cross up launches. Anyway after practically building one it pretty much breaks a lot of what makes Tekken special. For example everyone knows 1P mishima wave dash can be little more challenging compared to 2p since your hand placement isn't favorable where the cross up completely eliminates this by other having to tap forward and then the two right handed directional pads. At first I was like oh well you loose two fingers then need to readjust for an electric......but after maybe an hour I was hitting it like nothing from wavoo-wavoo to electric to wavoo-wavoo pewgf which is fucking absurd, not to mention i began landing df2, pewgfs even more though I can do it on stick too but I'm no kazuya veteran like you.
Tournament Organizer here. I'm not in charge of EVO, but I can explain why banning this isn't quite as simple as you may think. It's very true that this controller gives you a significant execution advantage. But with the way this thing is programmed you can't really ban it according to its specifications unless you also ban either hitboxes, REGULAR PS4 PADS, custom button placements or *some combination of these*. The directional inputs are mapped to the buttons, and the left analog stick is mapped to the stick. So this controller has no actual inputs that do not exist on a standard PS4 pad. It has no macros, and the ability to press opposite directions is technically possible on a standard pad and is on hitboxes, which are allowed. And it used the same programming logic for those approved controllers. We also let people change configuration on buttons for comfort, and there is no rule on where buttons must be placed on an arcade stick so long as it has all legal inputs. So yeah, this thing is definitely a huge advantage, but it's made in a way that doesn't break any rules for acceptable controllers, and that's why it's not so easy to simply ban it.
That's an interesting point. The comparison with the pad is obvious, though using the stick and dpad at once is not very practical, binding your directions for example to l1, l2, etc., while counter-intuitive, could in the end give you the same advantage as this. I don't know if anyone ever used it in a tournament like that. The thing that never occured to me, that it could also be done on arcade stick (as I don't use one) - if you can map the directions to the four unused buttons, you could get a very similar setup, even without the extra four buttons. Never seen that in a tournament either. Maybe I'm wrong about the arcade stick though, I don't know. But theoretically, if the top players haven't been using these things to their advantage because of honor, or whatever, they might not go for this kind of controller either? I don't play competitively, just a casual player and a fan/tournament watcher, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
no not really and even if it could another software update from the dev could make it work again. theres no way a software update could tell the difference between this and any other third party controller/pad
like damn did y'all miss the memo on the fact that a PS4 pad is the original cross up Pad players have legitimately been doing Cross Up Stick inputs for a decade right in front of everyone and people just said "that's so smart" You would have to ban the PS4 PAD also it can use the D-PAD and stick at the same time to do this SAME THING
Oh, he'll no doubt approve of it. It was his bright idea to butcher Paul's storyline, and to bastardise gameplay by introducing characters from other franchises with their foreign mechanics intact. I'm beginning to think Harada's the worst thing that ever happened to Tekken.
@@invertbrid I don't have a tweet about either of them approving it, but it sounds like it's okay for EVO. More than likely it will be okay to use at other major/challenger events.
@@PassionFlame64 hmm i see......thx for info. Pretty controversial indeed.....its technically legal while its also not. Well lets see what it will do n few majors or something
it's funny, i actually got to use this controller in person at genesis 8 and i was talking with the rep who was selling it and i mentioned this video and he said "yea the mainman one?" which is funny to consider that they've seen this video and understand the complaints
Mirror Harada doesn't care what the player-base thinks after Lei and Anna were released. People begged for those characters and hardly anyone plays them. Although I've seen a lot more Lei's these days for what it's worth.
@@mee091000 honestly I really don't care much for the two, but I think it's disgusting that's the kind of attitude those players displayed in the first place. It's just very ungrateful
The time people have wasted grinding electrics etc for 20 years they could have learned 3-4 languages instead and it's changed over a night. The game is balanced around that the best moves are behind a skillgap (taunt ju, ewgf, JFSR etc) so this just turn the entire gamebalance on it's head
@@Senumunu If you remove execution from Tekken it loses a part of it's identity and it's not the same game anymore. I find it odd that you prefer that game developers change their games around new controllers that come out during their lifespam instead of banning them from tournaments in which their product is used if they are considered to have unintentional concequences to the game. Try crossplaying an FPS game between a console and a PC community and tell me how that works out.
@@Aroused_Pineapple the execution part can simply be moved into optimized combos. also i really dont see why the whole industry should be frozen in time and space just bcs arcades used to be popular. reduce entry barriers for beginners and add the investment later in the progression curve. mainman is bitching here but if he was 12y old today he WOULD NEVER put all the time and effort into michimas. the younger generation simply doesnt have the patience and attention span for this anymore and neither does he. just getting high crushed turns him into a whining bitch. get with the times this isnt a fkn pillar set in stone. down the line adjustments can be made on all fronts.
@@Senumunu Developers / Namco should step in and ban them from official tournament, if you want to cheat in your own free time online that's on you. Otherwise the meta will develop into macrobox mishima/akuma fest in tournaments (which are overpowered if execution becomes a non-factor-barrier) and it will just look bad for Tekken when some kid in peru can never compete on his pad with a 35yearold American who's on his 5th controller. Tekken is balanced around execution otherwise we might just as well give Kazumi a one button electric.
Only 1 set of movement inputs. It doesn't matter if its a lever, buttons, d-pad, keyboard keys, who cares. As long as you only have 1 set. I think that would be a very simple and effective rule.
@@mathewkinetix9180 Games like tekken 7 only give you 1 choice for directional inputs, either the analog stick or the d-pad. If you choose the d-pad, left analog won't work. So the solution is already inside the game.
As a keyboard player, I think this is OP. I was on Reddit on a thread to execute PEWGF easier, and it was literally binding down, forward and button 2 on keyboard player #2 whilst keeping WSAD and everything else the same on keyboard #1 set-up. I tried it, and was able to execute PEWGF in about 5 seconds. There is a disadvantage to this method in that you can't use dash electrics (which can be overcome by doing 2x PWEGF using easy mode and then the keyboard #1 bindings to do the dash) but now there is an incentive to pull of electrics because of the damage increase, I can see this being abused. Even then, as a keyboard player, I think keyboard is also OP in the sense that I don't have to use my weak ass ring finger to backdash; I use WSDF with D key bound to back and F to forward, so I use the same finger movement for both backdashing and wavedashing. Jumped from Usurper to Genbu in a matter of days :/
Execution has been an issue for a long time. Do remember there are people that have disabilities, and struggle to keep up simply because of execution, despite not actually being bad players; They're limited by physical capabilities. It doesn't give you free fundamentals, it doesn't give you free spacing or reading. It's not cheating, it's easier on one's hands, this is entitlement at it's finest, this is overall helpful. Controllers have existed that are like this for a while too. Hell, custom xbox elite controllers have existed and could be similar to this.
It’s not entitlement if a controller fucking breaks the game balancing. Electrics are crazy good and the high execution barrier is needed to stop them from being abused at lower ranks. I’m all down for accessibility; but when accessibility messes with the core gameplay experience to such a degree, then it’s not worth including it. Gonna play the devils advocate here but why does every single game need to cater to and account for physical disabilities? Fighting games like tekken have been super technical since the beginning; and it’s certainly not meant for everybody. There are other games that would benefit far more from accessible features.
this decision was made to increase the number of ppl participating in the esport scene imho making everything more accessible. It's just about money. If everything becomes more accessible , overall level will increase , making the esport scene closer to the casual / semi hardcore player scene . more oponent = more competition = more money to invest
I really don't know what to say at this point. We either admit that fighting game "difficulty" was never a good thing or we admit that there is a serious scrub issue infecting competitive play in the FGC. I really don't understand why anyone would make, let alone even dream of a controller that automates the game to the point that execution is almost completely axed from the equation of player skill. The games themselves already increase input windows and simplify characters and mechanics. I mean if that's where we're going with this, why not just play Fantasy Strike and Divekick at this point? There is a blatant war being raged against technical skill in fighting games...
@@THENAMEISQUICKMAN we all know this but eliminating the execution barrier almost entirely reduces the inherent fun and allure of fighting games in the first place.
I mean my execution isn't even good and I have to rely on brains to outsmart players who do way more damage with their hits than I do, but I honestly don't get why execution is being axed from fighting games now. It allows people who are bad at execution to compete sure, but isn't that kind of the point? If you practice execution and acquire that skill, you should be rewarded for that dedication. It allows players to approach the games differently and have different strengths. What if you're not a brainy player? Your execution may be the skill you have to compensate for that, but if the games are all brain and no brawn, every brawn-based player is basically thrown out of the game. If I wanted to play a game with zero execution and all mind games, I'd play Chess. We need to ban this controller...
I think with this thing might also make charge characters on SF broken. Their moves have overall better frames but require the charge, so you dont have access to them without it. Hence the the balancing. motion moves are worse but you can access them at all times. Therefore I can almost safely conclude charge characters would be the strongest on SF using this controller.
Mixbox you can do the exact same thing lmao, press right, down, let go of right, then with your right hand hit down and punch at the same time and boom easiest electrics of your life. Granted you can only quickly do this trick to the right (though you can to the left if you move your right hand a bit awkwardly but that's impractical), but is "removing the execution" any better if it's just from one side?? Not to mention electrics are an outlier, they are by far the single most affected move by this; I will give you that it does affect this game quite a fair bit, but you act like all you have to do to execute in tekken is electrics. What good is an electric if you can't time the rest of your combo, hitbox or crossup isn't helping with that. Again not to mention you can do the same shortcut on pad by moving the stick forward to down then pressing right/left on the dpad and punch at the same time with your right hand, and that one works on both sides! It's the same leniency on both, only demanding thing on either is hitting the direction and the punch on the same frame which is trivial when using the same hand for both. yea i know i'm commenting on a 2 year old video but it got recommended to me so i figured its getting recommended to other people.
They can't make that legal. What if other sports did the same, allowed strange new tech, all sports would crumble, what are they thinking? This is so stupid.
KBD backdash cancel was never intended. If anything then KBD was a slap into the developers' faces and more so a slap into anyone's face who wanted to consider picking the game up at later stages of the series lifecycle. Yes, just frame WGF was supposed to be hard but both the gamepad and the arcade stick lever are unreliable input devices. Why would you gatekeep people like that? Some people also inherently have a superior left-right-hand coordination and sync. To them any EWGF is trivial (no matter which device they play on). Again, we all accept that keyboards are a viable and valid option right? They have been there since forever and longer than gamepads, joysticks and arcade sticks. Some boomers don't know anything besides them. TMM is not ranting about the CrossUp. In fact, he is holding contradicting views. He accepts HitBox and keyboards but CrossUps are an issue although you were able to configure the button layout on keyboard to do whatever the CrossUp allows doing? Really? Let's tackle the root cause of the problem. That's in fact that EWGF (especially 13 frames) is broken! 13 frame advancing party starter and combo tool, whiff punish and pressure tool that is +5 (!!!) on block. In the hands of someone who mastered this it is a meme move that should not exist. If normal WGF is minus on block then EWGF should be +1 at best.
It is funny how Tekken boomers want new players to come into their game at the same time they want someone to spend 10 years to learn how to do one move from one character with consistency. You need to come with solid arguments on why should this be banned at Evo. It is because has 2 sets of diretional input? Oh well so we have to ban Dualshock too. The series jand community needs to adapt to this new "technology" (isn't even a new technology just a clever way to use the inputs that was always there) Imagine at F1 if people discover a new fuel technology (lighter and generates more combustion) available to everyone but TMM Motors don't want to use it because his engineers will need to adapt his cars and that demand time and money. So instead of TMM Motors start to use this new fuel he proceeds to complain to everyone how this new fuel is cheating, any new pilot now can beat Schumacher track records and that is not fine. And TMM Motors sstay surprised when they allow people to use the new fuel in the next season....but, it's cheating...
the crossup controller has SOCD cleaning, meaning that it actually CAN'T input opposing directions at the same time. so no, you can't "cheat" with it. it does make playing charge characters a little easier, but you could do the exact same thing on pad, or just a standard hitbox controller. this thing is not even in the same ballpark as "macro territory"; it won't allow you to input multiple button presses with one button. it's frankly kind of sad for you to even suggest it.
The bottomline is people that aren't good at fighting games aka scrubs will be all for this and good players that have practiced and grinded for years will be against this. I agree with you 100%, this is cheating and it's stunning that EVO approved this but they only care about money so bringing in noobs is more money in their pockets.
Invert Brid yea lmao...I’ve faced countless noobs who can do electrics on cue, and never drop combos yet they suck in everything else, punishes nothing, never ducks on a string with an obvious high, and can’t even punish a snake edge lmao...so what’s the point? This only matters amongst people at the highest level, say nobi or knee or lowhigh switch to the Crossup, then that’s a scary combination but who knows if they ever will, so far I haven’t seen any top Japanese or Korean players switch to a Hitbox or Mixbox completely, ONLY just recently last one or two tournaments I’ve seen Kokkoma using a mixbox type controller, that’s it, none of the traditional arcade stick players ever switched, even though it’s agreed that hitbox and Mixbox are superior to arcade sticks at full potential
As a Smash 64 and melee player i can understand where you are coming from. It took me years to build consistent muscle memory in both games. At the same time i do like the idea of altering the barrier of entry for newer competitive players and raising the bar for veterans. I think the big problem is having a certain controller or fight stick become required in competitive play. I do not think it is a good idea to let this remain legal for tekken or other current games but i think in future games if companies develop around the idea of people playing with these custom controllers it could be a really good thing for fighting games as a whole. I personally do not get competitive in traditional fighting games because the controllers and required inputs feel janky and inconsistent. Having something like the hitbox would make someone like me feel more inclined to learn a traditional fighting game instead of having to grind for hours on a single move just so you can use it on a basic level.
There are two things that make the situation about this controller hard to deal with. 1. People are allowed to use custom controllers. This is usually at least as long as they are recognized by the game as exactly one button press and there are no copies of a button, so the game does not recognize two separate buttons as the same. 2. Tekken 7 allows multiple, separate buttons for directional input, as you can see somewhere in button mapping etc. in options. There is no nice way to forbid this controller without breaking rule changes. You would say that you cannot use controllers with multiple directional inputs, but this would make pads forbidden - they have both analog stick and d-pad for directional inputs and they both work at he same time. Even there is a picture on hitbox site that shows it. This controller is just a pad pcb connected to buttons and bigger stick, it is actually nothing big of a custom. You can button map keyboard to do the same. Or you would say you cannot customize in some specific way, but you won't be able to get them all immediately and there will always be people coming with their customs bending the rules more and more, so you would have say like only pads and sticks are allowed and nothing else, so no customs at all. Something like "if the controller has any directional input under buttons, you cannot use another set of directional inputs" sounds artificial and people will be clever to get around this. Or Tekken would be made to accept only one set of directional inputs. It would probably ignore pads' stick completely and this controller would then be illegal as having separate buttons recognized as exactly the same input by the game (after modyfing its internals, because it would not work at all at first). But this would have to be done inside Tekken and every other FGC. No way to get around this, it will always be controversial until we deny customs completely or change FGC execution curve so that using THIS controller is hard as well and make everyone practice the new hard things on THIS controller.
Well i've played tekken with a different variety of characters. I main Mishimas, and i havent learned a consistent electric yet. If i could pick up the game and execute 22 ewgf in a row. Thats like a wet dream coming true. This is straight up BS #letsriot
you can do 22 straight electrics in a row if you use pad and change the settings up a bit homie. I know im a year late but I stumbled upon the crossup war lol
After a year of playing tekken seriously I was excited of doing 8 ewhf in a row.... Dropping only 1 with a whf.... It's been greatful and satisfying.... With this it won't be any fun or satisfaction. It's just a step before a macro imput controller
I don't really understand the emotional reaction to sticks that have an atypical input scheme. It seems like a lot of people are essentially using conservative arguments like "they're not playing the way I consider traditional!" The difference between this stick and the traditional layout stick is essentially usage time within this argument. However... If that's not the best reason to use, and another reason for it's opposition is a perception of unjust ease-of-input, is this a good argument? Is making certain inputs easier or different, or adding new inputs, a "crutch?" Should controller technology and tradition never be advanced or changed? Just completely off the table for discussion and experimentation? [On analog sticks] Would people defending the DualShock 1 be right to oppose the DualShock 2 using this argument? Sticks made easier full-circles and half-circles, I'm sure Zangief players enjoy this luxury. I hope one finds that an argument inconsistently applied is a poor argument. If one is supposed to be persuaded to object to this stick I think some better reasons are obligatory. This video was kinda ramble-y and only really had these two arguments. One could argue for things like rules/regulations that are mandated to ensure input scheme *symmetry* between players, but thats a different argument. Within that context one couldn't even bring a flight stick, a Guitar Hero controller, a Mixbox, a steering wheel, a keyboard, or a bag of potatoes with a MIDI output. Regardless of if one can input commands easier, harder, or different, using a certain controller it would be banned a priori. Using this argument I think is better than "kids these days won't struggle for 15 years to do 22 whatever-the-fucks in a row like I did and that's bad somehow." Input schemes shouldn't arbitrarily keep things *that* hard to do... It kinda makes communities elitist and hard to break into, and as if the FGC wasn't elitist or hard enough to break into. I'm sticking to good ol' traditional layout because of simple personal preference. But I'd honestly like to see the skill curve of games reduced so more people can enjoy them and be competitive. I can see some good arguments for tournament restriction, but for personal use I don't see any good arguments. If this catches on and becomes tradition, what's the problem?
@@8523metalhead Maybe it does, but so be it. I tell you what, though, I'm as far left as it's possible to be politically, and it is rather amusing to me how far to the right I lurch when it comes to my favourite genre of games. I'm pretty elitist, and suspicious of anything that smacks of dumbing down fighting games, because their complexity in terms of execution (amongst other things) is, to me, part of what makes them emotionally rewarding, but also because it's part of their identity and uniqueness as a genre, and because I think it cheapens excellence. With respect to Tekken, specifically, I don't want characters from other game franchises coming along and diluting the purity of the gameplay with their foreign mechanics, and take the position that they should either be adapted to Tekken (i.e. leave said mechanics behind) or not be introduced in the first place, and you should see me complain about how players of no other major fighting game franchise have to put up with this sort of shit, but with Tekken it's different for some reason! I sound just like a neo-Nazi complaining about how every other racial group is allowed nations for themselves except white people! Yeah, I guess I am pretty far right when it comes to fighting games.
To be fair most fighting games don't need more than 6 buttons so I never understood why there were 8 buttons everywhere. 4 directions and 6 buttons was so easy to set it as strong rules for the standard and now we are paying the price for not doing it before.
This reminds me of when electronics first got introduced in paintball. Being able to maintain a high rate of fire without chopping paint used to be a valued skill. Then everyone could do it. The controllers should be standardized.
Zach Sundberg That violates a lot of rights for a wide variety of players to be able to play the game when a game needs gamers of all kinds as much as possible have an idea that the game is accessible to the to thrive
Wtf I play stick and could do a 5 electric combo consistently in a week, I can only guess you were spamming it trying to "get the timing right" without looking at the command history and adjusting? Kazuya even has the easiest electric in the game requiring you to only input d,n,df+2 how could it take 2 months lol
Well not everyone plays daily. If he plays like 1 hour a week? That's only about 8 hours? That's not that long. And even then I don't think he spent all 8 hours in practise mode. Just an example
I doubt lumberjacks felt like the gas-powered chainsaw was a spit in the face when it was introduced and gradually replaced the handsaw. "Chainsaw? PFFT! It requires less practice, less strength! A lesser man's tool..."
Attitudes like this is why the FGC will always stay niche. Hard execution was a result of arcade machines needing people to put more money into the machine in order to perfect their gameplay. Hard execution is now a barrier to new gamers getting into a fighting game.
So what’s your solution? Rebuild the entire game? Cos that’s what you’ll have to do if you remove the execution barrier. And what’s wrong with a genre staying niche? Fighting games have risen in popularity contrary to what you imply. It’s just that gaming as a entertainment media has grown at a ridiculous pace so it seems like fighting game popularity hasn’t grown at all, when it has. Hell, tekken 7 has sold 10 million copies by this point.
Finding a Kazuya online used to be hard and was something to look forward to. Nowadays he is one of the most played characters on pc and usually just annoying to play against because 80% of these Kazuya players are using macros or playing on keyboard/hitbox.
The more complex imputs of special attacks are intended to make those moves harder to execute, that is the whole point, the developers know that D-pads and Joysticks have 2 restrictions, 1) it is imposible to imput 2 adjacent directions; and 2) because of this, there is a short travel time if you wanna imput an opposite direction after another, unlike keyboards and leaverless controllers. Knowing this, game developers used it for their advantage and balanced their characters by using complex imputs for special moves, which offer more damage and utility, but at the cost of a little time waste at the execution of the command, this is further reinforced when you see games like Mortal Kombat, where the game designers intentionally eliminated any complex imput, using 1 or 2 directions for each special attack as a mean to expand the characters move list rather than using the commands to balance their game, thats why in MK they use 1 button dedicated to block, so the players can go forward without the travel time of the stick, relying almost entirely on frame data to balance their characters. And as said before, only D-pads and joysticks have this physical restrictions, which are there by design and then used by fighting game designers to balance their games, on the contrary, keyboards and leaverless controllers do not have this restrictions, giving any player that takes the time to get use to them to unfairly bypass a game mechanic. I am not against keyboards and leaverless controllers themselves, I am against their use in games like KOF and SF where the physical mechanics of the controllers are a part of the game balance system, however, these controllers are perfectly fine for games like DNF Duel, MK and Injustice, since their balance system relies on frame data and hitboxes, thats why their developers intentionally removed complex imputs.
Months or years for KBD lol!?! More like an hour of actual dedicated practice to get it down and another 10 of actual dedicated practice to do it consistently in real matches. And weren't you advocating for removing KBD from the game just a few months ago? (which is something I heavily disagree with) Electric isn't hard because of the dp motion. It's hard because of the timing. Guy clearly had great rhythm. He's not gonna whiff punish with electrics, do electrics out of movement or do df2 into PEWFG any time soon at least in real games. As long as there are no macros, pressing F, B or U, D at the same time leads to neutral and all of the buttons behave the same (as in normal directional inputs), it should be fine. Also: What if a guy who doesn't have fingers in his left hand wants to use a controller with additional buttons and maybe even footswitches for directions? Is he not allowed to do that? Coming from CS, I don't see the problem here. That scene has evolved so much due to improvements in hardware that any changes to controllers that aren't adding macros, seem very inconsequential for Tekken. They have gone from 60hz to 144hz to 240hz, from ball mouses to laser mouses to optical mouses to wireless optical mouses. Sometimes Valve has been forced to change the balance (like nerfing dmg and accuracy of assault rifles and pistols) and sometimes the meta has evolved to account for gear that enables higher technical prowess. In Dust 2, there is a gap which one team is forced to cross at round start while the other team can try to snipe them. With 60hz, even the best players can't react to it consistently, so back in the day, it was relatively safe to cross it without smokes and "hype" if someone hit the shot. Now with 240hz, even an average player can hit that shot every time after a bit of practice. You could have argued that the gap was designed to be unreactable and maybe some people did, but in that case, no changes were made. Players just started to smoke the gap every time. Game doesn't require any less skill now.
MZZA you give an interesting perspective with CS. Different competitions have either a conservative or progressist culture. Some people want things to stay frozen in time while others like things to evolve. Same with politics in society. I live in Japan where people still use fax machines. My home country France promotes a faster pace for change. It's a preference in the end. I think the problem here is that as a member of the tekken community, you don't know what can happen next. TMM is rightfully frustrated here because there is no governing body that sets rules and discusses changes. A better system would be what we did for society: representation through vote, and legislation to have official positions on topics. This way even if you disagree with a change, you can respect that there was a discussion and the majority of people wanted what you didn't. It can make you reflect on things which is healthy
Since Tekken was designed for an arcade stick I think that should be the standard for tournament play. I understand the frustration, but a pad had multiple directional inputs as well..if a pad can be legal I don't see why a hitbox can't.
It depends on which duplicate inputs you're talking about. I'm down with banning means of performing more than one directional input simultaneously. Banning means of performing more than one attack input, on the other hand, is a totally different matter.
Is there button to make lags when opponent does combo? There are too much cheats already in online matches. People use macro, lag makers, giving advantage modes and now this shit slowly becomes permitted. It all started with DLC that allows 1 button sample combos - pay to win at green ranks. p2w becomes a common thing.
Watching a tekken player with 10 minutes of experience doing 22 electrics in a row and commenting "well, standing electrics aren't that hard to begin with" is the most mishima player thing to say 😂
Too fucking true.
My first time playing tekken brah i didnt even know what the star was 😂
I remember in Tekken 3 i thought the star meant that a move was some 'super move' lol
Lol same
@@VongolaBeverly Hahaha that is cute!
So true coudn't figure it out when i played tekken 1 xp
I still don't... But m only 1 month in
so... they banned Daigo's controller just to allow another controller that has the same properties wich they used to ban Daigo's...
a m a z i n g
Daigo's controller is also allowed according to Evo rules. They specifically mentioned it in their new controller guidelines.
I believe capcom banned daigos mixbox , not evo . I could be mistaken but i recall the ban being issued by capcom for capcom cup
edit; combo breaker did ban it
daigos controller had more than 2 directionals without socd cleaning. that is complete cheating. the crossup has the same properties as a pad function wise
@@zephune9506 What is different, when there is no socd cleaning?
Daigo used specifically to draw attention to it and get it banned i recall.
Damn, you know TMM is serious when he lets the same song play 900x on loop
It was probably T7 practice mode running in the background 😭😭😭
@@dannyrpt holy fuck how has it been 4 years already
"People who were interested in this also bought... Leroy Smith"
😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Lol
InstaBlaster...
Standing electrics arent hard to do? I literally had inflammation on my thumb when i first learned it on pad
I have extra tissue on my finger from doing electrics so that my hand doesn't bruise when I play (the body's natural response apparently). This is not a joke. You have to experience pain to play. Which sounds edgy but its the fuckin' truth of the matter.
Entity 01010101010110011110 christ you shouldn’t have to press it so hard, just do the input, pressing so hard isn’t gonna give you the move
There are idiots out there who say everything is easy when they have no idea.
electrics are a big reason i can't be arsed to play mishimas, i'd rather not go through all that effort for what should just be a fucking DP motion and i'd rather play someone who highlights mental play over physical dexterity
I broke my controller learning to Electric, lol
Bruh it took me 3years to get consistently good electrics.... watching that guy do like 10 in a row made me feel like I wasted my time....
On pad with the right setup, electrics are easy. I nailed 25 electrics in a row after less than a day of practice. I have good execution. Ban pad tho, right? I shouldn’t be able to do 25 in a row without a significant amount of practice, as I’m not a Tekken player. Thing is I have no clue when to do electrics (much more important). OGs have that all important experience. I’m not sure why everyone is scared of better tools like it will suddenly level the field. I think it’s more about people being butthurt that they put in all this time to learn a skill, and others simply found a better way to do it. 🤔
Thanks for saying this. I dont feel as bad now since I have been trying for last eight months or so and still cant get them consistent at all and frustrated to point of just leaving jin alone. But the best say it took them years to get good and some lucky ones can get it in months.
@@magnuslehohn8091 man a setup on pad is near to cheat... Try to do 22 electrics with default commands.. thats hard
@@magnuslehohn8091 oh it took 4 months to me learning standing electric and wavedash
@@magnuslehohn8091 you are what's wrong with the world
Specifically for Tekken where you only need the four face buttons for attacks, you can do this double input thing on pad as well by binding the shoulder buttons to directional inputs. Just bind R1 to forward and push triangle and R1 simultaneously. Or on stick, bind the third top row to forward (on the PS4/Steam button binder).
Not even close to comparable. At the end of the day, games _are_ their control schemes, so when you create an alternative control scheme, something is lost. Controllers vs fight sticks were comparable. Fight sticks had some small advantages, controllers had some advantage, but they were largely comparable, with most of the better players being on stick simply do to historical factors.
This is your little brother as a controller waving his black, plastic fingers in your face saying, "I'm not cheating, not cheating yet~" because he's engineered the skill floor out of the device.
God I hate this awful argument so much. All 14 people who liked your comment are idiots.
I mean I know it's a year later but people who play on keyboard already have been able to do this. At least during the online game I can use my wasd keys for movement, along with the arrow keys and numb pad all at the same time
late comment but would not be quite difficult to move back your hand without fat fingering? the layout is tight as it is.
@@buulaa1 I got big ass hands and long fingers so not really and I only use my thumb for the arrow keys
@@alphablood6424 fair enough
Yah but that sounds awkward as fuck. Same with ppl saying you can do this with a DS4...like yah with fucking mutant hands. These hitboxes are designed to naturally and easily allow game breaking movement.
@@Tartersauce101 i mean its a little weird on keyboard but on DS4 that shit's easy. There are plenty of people out there who actually prefer claw than regular grip and even for people who dont like claw, its still not a hard thing to do if your fingers are somewhat dextrous. Not to say anything about the fairness of it, just that it's not hard to do and if we ban hitboxes, then it'd only; be fair to ban ds4's or at least make it to where on ds4 you have to disable either dpad or stick so you only have one input
ive been using playstation pad since 20 years ago and will still use normal playstation pad till the day i die
matthew tonna doing any f,b or b,f motion with pad is cancer
same i tried all this other cheap shit but i dunno it feels weird and im not used to it
@@Rdfalcone There is a simple solution to this problem. You use a different move.
Dudes like lil majin and runitblack have defeated top tier koreans using pad with optimal hard execution moves.
Gareth McDonald what if you're bryan, devil jin, or lars, just to name a few?
I don't even consider myself the most dedicated Tekken player and even this sort of makes me question its introduction.
I get things like the mixbox: It still requires directional input, and defo easier than stick, it still has a chance of human error.
Something like this defeats the purpose of actually y'know... Playing the game?
People who defend it don't see why it's not really in the spirit of things. Being able to be good at something (which I admittedly, am not) requires time, dedication and also it's meant to be the way to enjoy it. Sure nowadays not everyone is willing to play stick, but as long as what you have doesn't have an immediate inherit advantage (for example, compare a pad with turbo function vs one without in a game like Mario Party or something) then it still is putting effort into the game.
Twenty two electrics at the repeated press of a single button? Who knows what this will be used for and certainly will just make players who have played the game with arcade sticks, keyboards without macro and whatnot, leave because what's the point of dedication, when all you need to do is press a few buttons without any real input from your own end.
How can one distinguish from actual skill to someone just using glorified macros if this becomes widespread? Price doesn't seem to be an issue for a lot of players who would rather seek an immediate advantage over putting time into improving.
This wasn't a macro, but it is easier to perform the electric. Because you have the second set of movement controls.
Yeah it kinda lessens the value of trying to get better at the game
@@sebaschan-uwu What if a PWD with less then 10 fingers that was cut off or crushed by an accident or 10 fingers but one of his fingers is pretty much dead, use this to play in tournaments? now it's suddenly an honorable tool cause it helps the PWD bridge the gap without sacrificing it to be a macro, this is almost no different from medical tool advancement, like we use to only have walking sticks for amputees, now we have prosthetics, some are even designed to make amputees run. but does that make them invincible from making mistakes like falling over?
I don't know what's the difference, one still has to press/move the stick/buttons the same number of times. down forward 1, is still gonna be pressed down forward 1 on that. One button doing one thing can't be cheating.
Besides, if everyone gets a cross-up, it's back to fundamentals and muscle-memory.
im someone who has used a pad,hitbox and arcade stick im am perfectly fine with how these type of controllers. Most of these games are very technically deep which is good but some of this stuff is almost impossible to pull off because the rotations or inputs have to be 100% accurate which then leaves to moves not being used rarely or at all. But with a hitbox alot of these moves are now viable go watch some of the combo videos on the hitboxes channel and you can see some of the crazy things these games are capable of allowing.
Who cares, just go buy a cross up.
Making a controller is easy but tekken still requires a high level of intuition and instinct to win. You can't be completely brain dead and make your way up the ranks. That can never be circumvented
Hwoarang mains beg to differ.
Let me smash your hand with a hammer and tell you to play mishimas after and see how it goes? If player A is forced to dedicate 200 hours into doing something player B doesn't, player B can use that time to do other things. It's like saying steroids are ok or adding nitro to your car because a human is involved.
@@Aroused_Pineapple OK. Not sure the point you are trying to make. Because it doesn't refute my statement. Technique usually always loses to knowledge.
The issue is more so the fact that some of these moves are behind executional barriers seemingly for a balance reason. Maybe it isn’t actually the case, but there’s no doubt that a Cross Up gives you a HUGE advantage in the tekken 7 system
@@MildlySwanky perhaps but technique doesn't beat knowledge.
I understand that they're trying to make one of the hardest games easier to play, but the difficulty is what makes Tekken Tekken. If you win a race with a self driving car, did you really win?
a self driving car is the equivalent of a macro. a newer controller that makes it easier to win is the equivalent of a new state of the art engine, transmission, gearbox etc
LOl, you tekken fan boys really think tekken is the hardest fighting game? You must have never played kof. Tekken is a kiddie pool compared to kof
@@pelhamrechtsanwalt2416 Why are you here? If KoF is so hard why aren't you playing it and practicing?
win is win. i will get the money
Exactly. U may call it elitist attitude but to quote Tom Hanks from A League of Their Own, "of course it's hard. It's SUPPOSED to be hard. It's the hard that makes this game so great. If it were fucking easy then everyone would be able to do it!!!".
Noone seems to understand this, which is why TTT2 failed, bc it was too damn hard despite being a fantastic Tekken game. People just want to achieve great feats without putting in the work and game devs want more $ and attract more players so they dumb down the game like they did in T7. SMDH
Cheating no,this Hitbox Crossup controller just has shortcuts to doing the input,it's not like the player is pressing one button and doing a wind god fist,a gohado, goshoryu & tatsu.if you've played streetfighter you know guile's charge moves can be done on pad and analog stick some players will charge for the sonicboom then quickly charge for the flashkick if you want to ban the hitbox cross-up ban the standard ps4,Xbox&nintendo pro controller too because it can be done using those too.they are just as legal as a standard hitbox, mixbox,fightstick, keyboard etc.
Fighting games was like playing an instrument , you practice and repeat over and over to make “music “. Now people want the instrument to play the music itself.
This is the best summary of this problem I’ve seen so far.
The age of entitlements strikes again. Screw hard work, we deserve to win because!
Yeah autotune shit
They already are making the games easier
But I guess that's not enough
Oh dude grow up
Fighting games have been getting more and more user friendly as it is. Sadly, people have lost the dedication and just want to pick up and win or be rewarded for nothing, and not only have game developers done this when it comes to fighting games, but now people are looking to extend it to the controller as well.
Fighting games were never intended to be easy. They were always seen as a genre that is difficult to pick up and now that's lost, where skilled players are no longer being rewarded for all their time that they have put into the game, as the newer players are being spoonfed
Because more players = more money = greedy Developers.
@@metaldoji thats a terrible argument
watch sajam's vid about it
Killjoy it’s sadly because everyone wants something for nothing
This doesn't make the game easier unless you finally have a controller that more accommodates keyboard users for fighting games.
The future is now old man
The future has bunch of pussies then
@@riahisama it's he millennials, they don't want to work for anything like they want everything easy, now, and free lol.
Apparently the future is going to be lacking execution and just button mashing.
bluelion7342 Yeah that sounds pretty stupid last time I checked every generation prior has increasing had it easier than the previous generation because of advancement in technology done by said generation. Can’t really take people serious when they say dumb things like that.
@Roy Sunshine even if you have it, you yourself won't even be able to compete especially for Tekken, you're already swapping for easy execution cuz you don't wanna have to work to get good at it. What makes you think you'll learn strings or basic Tekken fundementals properly? you'll probably quit
I hope Harada and Murray won't accept this shit on any TWT tournament.
I feel it also showcases problems with building things to heavily on good execution rather than good decision making. In Tekken an electric is a pretty safe option most of the time yes if you get to predictable they could duck it but being to predictable with any move is a bad idea unless its truly broken. Whereas say a DP in SF is an incredibly powerful move but it can be punished hard if blocked making it a lot more risky. I preferred SF2s balancing mentality where inputs were made to limit how often you could do them and from what state i.e retreating, walking forward, crouching, standing etc and to their power.
From a personal standpoint I am much more interested in decisions made in fighters than execution. Allowing people to get to a good baseline of execution imo just helps lower the skill floor and helps to raise the skill ceiling because players now cannot rely on better execution to give them a substantial advantage they have to out think the opponent instead and ofc have knowledge of the game like usual. There is still room for execution to shine however because sticks like this wont be able to account for timing such as linking attacks although thats more of a 2D fighter thing (they can still plink as usual though).
Whether its banned or not is largely irrelevant to me I mean people could still use it offline and abuse it but then they could just set up macros on PC if they are that way inclined and make it even easier. To give a true even ground you would have to enforce a control type and that is not going to be fair to those who have played for years on another. At tournament level execution is usually at a high enough standard I feel that a controller like this will make little odds although I could very well be wrong.
i completely agree with this. i feel like execution shouldn't be the be all end all barrier between tiers of competitive players.
execution is important to defining characters tiers but i feel like the higher tier players want it to have more of a barrier to entry for other players aspiring to be pros than just fundamentals or decision making strategy.
Play smarter, not harder. Of course a guy who has spent over ten years playing harder is going be defensive and feel "cheeted".
@@Bageer1 What makes fighting games unique as a genre to me is that they combine playing smarter _with_ playing harder. Execution takes discipline and dedication, which, probably not coincidentally, are also crucial to proficiency in martial arts in the real world.
You contradicted yourself in the same posts. You like how dps are balanced by locking them behind a hard input but don’t like Electrics for the same reason? Also in most Tekken games you could not just duck but sidestep the electric as well. It was never meant to be a safe move to just put out there.
@@davidparry5310 This is a really good point and analogy.
Flawless electrics with no effort....ummm..i don't know how I feel about that
ewgf is always difficult as long as u have 1 set of directional inputs, like on kb u can set second set of inputs for ur right hand and get pewgf almost everytime, because u dont have to sync both hands actions, doing simultaneous inputs with one hand is much easier.
@@vittoriodio on this crap literally just do f with the stick then f again while pressing 2 and down at the same time and boom, perfect electric.
Man you just didn't fight those macro players son's of bitch ...they laugh at your face
i'm getting tired of stuff like
"hey you struggling to beat this game, don't have time to train don't wanna learn the fundamental , wanna slap gamers who wasted their life mastering the game. just spend on this and you will be the same level as them"
This is what Modern gaming has become
Agreed
like everything else in life.
SSS Gaming or don’t waste your time on a game unless you’re playing for money ...
>pewgf macro
>fundamentals
If you can't slap the shit out of someone who hasn't learned the fundamentals, NO MATTER WHAT FUCKING MACROS THEY USE, I'm sorry to say it, but you haven't mastered the game, you actually suck.
@@THENAMEISQUICKMAN True, but this controller is scary on experienced hands.
Tokidos modified stick that allowed him to do standing U2 with Akuma in usf4 got banned and this is even worse. Ban this.
tbh that should've been allowed, up-up is such a retarded input in a 2D fighter
Oh is that how he did those U2's? I never knew his stick was modified
@@RisingPhoenix05 First time I'm hearing this as well. Damn...
@@RisingPhoenix05 I can't remember how he did them raw, but comboing into U2 from a cl. Fierce was easy. You just had to do Fierce > Teleport > U2.
that rock n roll racing pfp though
A pad has two directional inputs with the analog and d-pad which can in fact be used together in most games, albeit clumsily. All this does is make it more intuitive to take advantage of that, just as the input layout on a stick is arguably more intuitive than on a pad; it's not something otherwise impossible to achieve. I fail to see how this could be considered cheating.
you can do that super easily on xbox pads btw, since the stick is above the dpad. you can have your indexfinger hugging the stick without problems while using a regular gamepad grip and then you can just pull the stick down and press b on dpad for super quick and insanely easy kbds or qcircles.
it's impossible to hold back and just press forward to back-dash. It's basically a macro, you only have to move one finger to do something that requires a complex technic.
2 years late but you can literally just turn it off for pads, Tekken Tag 2 only allowed you to use the analog stick or the d-pad, you physically cannot do that on the cross up or hitbox. Is it cheating? I don’t know, but I don’t think this a valid argument.
if you use the pad on pc you can technically make it three directional inputs at once if you bind the right analog stick partially and partially the left analog stick, albeit awkward.
They wanna treat fighting games like all those games that give you rewards easily to “feel good” but nothing feels better then seeing your actual practice and dedication paying off. If this goes through, fighting games will die out in the long run
Agreed
Hey watch me not give a fuck, and use a cross up to do 22 electrics. 😆 you can go back to practice, and electric until your wrist falls off I'm gonna go sip a brewski.
@@DreGamingNetwork A controller like this makes the game more accessible to people... I support it fully even though I may never use it myself but it is legal does not do anything to give the other player am unfair advantage... Unfair advantage would be where on a controller you can just assign electric god fist command to a single button... And on this controller you still require execution just that the motion of your hands is widely different Doesn't mean anything... It is still execution...
@@nayyarrashid4661 man its a fair point but... Not legal in tournaments, in competitive play there's no sense to make this tournament legal... People at tournaments are not new to the game
Learned Lee and Lars on pad and got their execution and punishment down and it took work, Lee especially. I have to agree that this simplification will make Tekken lose its identity of being a reward for being good with technique and execution based game. Might negatively impact all fighters as a whole. Maybe.
I like how people argue that a pad player can use a stick and dpad at the same time while forgetting the Crossup allows for directional inputs on either hand
So is keyboard. And it also allows attacks inputs on both hands. And this was intentional thing by the developers that you can configure 2 sets of keyboard controls that controls a single character.
@@oraora8214 Good luck pressing any attack buttons if youve got both hands on the opposite ends of your keyboard
@@dekuskrub2154 Its pretty easy to place attack buttons around your movement buttons on a keyboard
8:16 It's been a long time since I've seen disappointment as genuine as this.
As a newbie Tekken player ( having like 400 hours in the game), I can only begin to comprehend what you feel. I'm still constantly learning new things in the game, and that too with just one character. I learn to do something new, implement something differently, almost every week of playing.
This breaks the game for me. This should not be allowed at all. Hard moves need to be hard to do, and that is the way the game has been designed.
Damn you're still learning new shit with 400 hours?? I've been playin for like 10 hours and I kinda got like 1 string with lars I guess? I feel like I can learn quick cause I beat the story on medium 1st try and I heard it was hard as hell
@@shiloh1422 I wonder if I should get into this game too I'm tired of getting whooped in mk 11
Shiloh King Man,what wrong with winning story mode,is very easy.
Only Devil Kaz and Akuma are strong.
If you beat it at hard without losing a fight or round,that really impressive,but that unbelievable
@@shiloh1422 Run Jin for the same amount of time and see where you end up.
Why not just balance these moves? Hard to execute moves are stupid imo, like with time and effort execution stops being a problem and as a result players just get overpowered move without downsides. It doesnt make player more impressive imo.
I agree that having more than one set of direction inputs seems like a clear place to draw the line. Mixbox is an advantage but I dont think it's an unfair one.
its not really a place to draw the line, keyboards have wasd and arrow keys
@@PoopFarter1and controllers have analogue sticks and dpads. That doesn’t mean they’re capable of having the same effect as the cross up. The cross up is designed to abuse using two directional inputs at once while keyboards and controllers have different options based on preference and comfort. There is a line and the cross up lived up to its name
@@TheTrueDude kid the only thing that stops you from abusing them is your own skill issue
@@TheTrueDude In other words, controllers are not designed tech for the game and are not optimal at all. Because they aren't. Fighting games are the most competitive games in the world. Why should anyone have to use out dated, unoptimized hardware to play? We don't see F1 drivers being forced to use cars from the 90's. It's all different tech now. They have to bide by the rules, as do we (SOCD). Quite literally, all these controllers are doing is moving inputs that already exist around. Splitting the DPad up and putting it in a more convenient spot. That is absolutely it.
Why don’t boxers use loaded gloves? Why shouldn’t they? Why shouldn’t they use corked bats in the MLB? It really doesn’t matter how fallacious your argument is you guys might as well be using macros if you want this lame piece of trash. Why don’t you just use macros seriously? Anyone who uses this piece of garbage is going to get sideways looks nobody will respect that it’s not just about getting wins it’s about the sanctity of the game.
I seriously amaze when i see jdcr win with heihachi because of his execution, if people use mishima with crossup and win, i didnt know if im going to be as amaze
spoiler : they didn't. Crossup is fine.
“Crossup is fine” nice training wheels bro bet you are really proud of yourself. Why don’t you just use macros?
Dont blame hitbox, all of this can already be done on pad. Fighting game developers should simply disable allowing use of both analog and dpad at the same time.
This seems best solution
no it cant lmao i dont know if you ever seen a pad but you cant click two directions at the same time.. making korean dashing literally perfect on hitbox forgot to mention you completely erased how hard it is to do a 14 frame electric..
@@jadonplox you can. dpad and left analog stick
@@macsmit7302 great and how are you gonna press the kick/punch Buttons during a match at the same time Genius?
@@novinka19 NuckleDu already does this on SF for his Guile. Uses both pad and stick of his PS controller to charge partition.
TMM I don't want to be devils advocate or anything, but I would really love to see you getting that CrossUp and trying out wavedash and PEWGFs and giving first hand impressions how much it's bullshit and how big of an advantage you get compared to stick
- Plays Tekken for the first time on Crossup
- 22 electrics in a row
That speaks for itself.
That would make a good vid
@@sodiumoverdrive1507 They're super easy though, first time I tried out Tekken I did a couple dozen in a row much to a friend's annoyance. If you have any experience with timing at all it's super easy. Things like PEWGF are a little bit harder, without ever practicing them I was getting one PEWGF every 4-5 attempts since my DP inputs were fast anyways (I play anime fighters).
Both of those things are relatively easy and not really indicative of the tool.
The Korean Backdash is much easier on pad/keyboard/hitbox/crossup, that's true, but it only takes about a week to learn on *any* input method.
@@Julietmateus That's a cool story but if you really have the kind of natural talent you claim you do how come I've never seen you at any tournaments? The first time you tried Tekken you did 24 electrics in a row and then learnt Korean backdashing in a week on a normal pad? So surely by now you've mastered the game at a competitive level no?
Spooky TV no you’re just being an asshole. Being talented does not mean you have to compete. Are you one of those guys that get angry in player lobbies because someone who has no rank who only plays in player lobbies and not ranked beat your ass? Then calls them out for not having a rank? I’ve encountered too many egotistical twats like that. Leave the man alone. Do you know how many amazing players are out there? The same is for the real world. Freaks and talented people exist, theres is probably someone out there way faster than Bolt himself, he just hasnt had the chance in life or opportunities to compete or doesnt want to. Grow up.
The thing that gets me is that if this becomes the default 'best' controller for people to play on, what is that gonna look like for new players. If they see everyone who's good at the game using one of these, they'll feel like they have to be using one of these in order to be on a level playing field with others, and considering the price of these sticks I imagine that would put a lot of people who are interested in taking the game seriously off.
PaeroPwns exactly because now you are turning a $60 game into a $260 game because now i have to get the game and the controller
The problem with this idea is that it is unlikely to happen considering the same thing has already happened with pads. It seems like most informed players agree that pad is better for Tekken than stick.
However; most top players still play on stick since that’s what they are used to, especially those with an arcade background. Even if crossup becomes more prominent, they will likely still use stick.
There is a good point in that new players see what top players use and think it gives an advantage. It’s the case with sticks rn too but they usually learn that isn’t the case by the time they reach an intermediate level.
John it seems like there is in NA at least. Going by what players/commentators have said on personal streams and the past.
@@ASlopedRoof you realize you just said the same thing he did but for sticks? They both have their advantages, what the fuck are you talking about?
Pay to win fighting games
I'm sure that there were palms greased in the right areas to let this happen.
I'm not sure how this is different than using the pad and joystick on a console remote at the same time other than being less awkward. As far as the Hitbox/Mixbox multi-input advantage goes, it doesn't exist. Simultaneous input scrubbers are pretty standard in control boards these days.
Lol I’ll be a proud simultaneous input scrubber if it means not developing arthritis attempting to hit inputs like 1+4 and 1+2+3 on pad
I don't think thats what that means.@@WastePlace
It sucks cuz pulling off electrics is so satisfying BECAUSE it’s hard and it’s the payoff of that labor but you lose out on the journey of practice and the intrinsic motivation of being a good player
We should ban any advancements that make any sport or esport more approachable we can use leather football helmets and take all the ball bearings out of yoyo competitions because those weren't there originally
Evolution and progress doesn't care what you are used to or not.
Get use to this type of shit in every game, what you once took year to execute with consistency now every player that starts playing the game will have access to technology that will helped them do it in minutes. Especially with AI now, stuff like this will level the playing field in the below average / Average players.
Btw didn't you literally advertised the mix box: ''The point I'm trying to make is that the mix box very early on, grant you access to advanced execution''
Before anyone asks I play with ps5 controller.
This was 5 years ago before he gave in to the dark side. He uses a lever less arcade … stick? Idk what you’d call it
It makes sense. U dont see football players using magnetic balls with magnetic shoes. Excecution is a heavy part of fightinggames... you cant take it out bcs it will be the beginning of the end.
That's a poor analogy. A closer analogy is more sticker gloves or more better shoes over times (which of course does). Such things are standardized; so is this.
Wow... you really changed my opinion. You brought up fantastic points that can’t be refuted. Great job and fantastic video!
Can't deny the point about the identity of the game.
Everyone is forgetting that most alternatives to the traditional stick have their drawbacks: keyboard/mixbox fall short when executing half/full circle inputs (720s are impossible imo) and pads have invariable button placements with only one set of usable directional inputs.
The crossup controller is ergonomic, intuitive and allows players to execute inputs at the upper limits of efficiency.
I'll admit mixbox and mechanical keyboards are unfairly advantageous in comparison to a pad because of the ability to press back and forward simultaneously and some shortcuts which aren't possible on pad. (SF example is frame perfect DP into double QCF super.)
But this is another level of broken, crossup lowering the overall execution barrier in this way circumvents the developers' intent and subsequently adds a paywall, not concerning the quality of equipment but the functionality. This is particularly problematic for newcomers into fighting games, especially those with higher execution requirements because it'll come down to buying your advantage and not earning it.
That's my lengthy fucking 2 cents.
TL;DR Cross-Up>>>>>>Mixbox>=Keyboard=Arcade Stick>Pad IMO
Fighting game's legacy are arcade halls, with arcade stick controls. The moves are designed with that in mind. I wouldnt be against tournaments actually being exclusively played on cabinets. Though, I see people might not want to spend $150-200 to just play a game they've paid for, so I'll swallow the fact that ordinary controllers could be used during tournament play. But I'm still against assigning unique hotkeys etc. If a move is hard to do, it's because it's supposed to be hard to do.
Allowing this controller would be like adding those console aim-assisting features into something like Counter strike so people just have to tap an aimkey to get an instant lock and track feature.
The instrument you choose to play a game with can either make or brake a game . in this case, it'll ruin the game
You think Tekken is throwing perfect electrics? Like its a rhytm game? Its that simple to be good at it. You can backdash and electric insta Emeper or rank
@@sarperdogan6454 having simpler backdashes and electrics won't get you to emperor LMAOOOO
welp hasn't been ruined yet
I don't understand why people keep moving the goal posts. This controller allows really difficult things to be executed with no difficulty. It's cheating, that's all there is to it.
The fact that EVO is allowing this is super shady to me. There have been multiple instances where controllers that are custom made to have additional directional buttons have been banned. It seems very odd to me that all of a sudden, a company pays money to have a booth at EVO and their controller get the green light despite being more egregious than other custom made controllers that do similar things. Take Tokido's stick from back in SF4. It had a button for select plinking (Which was super common back then. A lot of people shifted the six button layout to the right by one button and got rid of their macro buttons in order to change the light buttons to select. PRBalrog was a notable player that used this setup) and it also had an additional 'up' button for U2 cancels with Akuma. Banned. Despite having 3 less directional inputs than the CrossUp and a button that was already on the stick just moved to a different position. FullSchedule ran into a similar prob at FR17 when Fchamp cried about him having 2 additional directional buttons in order to do burn kick cancels with Viper. Banned (They made him remove the buttons mid tourney). Despite having 2 less directinal inputs than the CrossUp. And most recently Daigo's GafroBox which to my knowledge has the same amount of additional buttons as the CrossUp, just with hitbox layout instead of stick, got banned.
Now to be fair, to my knowedge, EVO has never specifically banned any of the controllers mentioned above. Those decisions were made by TOs of smaller majors. But I feel that if there's anywhere where EVO should start to draw the line, it's here. Especially when you consider that the whole reason why this controller is so good for doing inputs is because it has asynchronous SOCD. I'm all for someone making a controller that's more comfortable for them (I made a hitbox with all keyboard keys for that exact reason), but this controller is a bad look. So here's a quick heads up to everyone who plays on hitbox like I do: If you thought the played out "CheatBox" memes were bad before, brace for impact because it's only gonna get worse from here.
like damn did y'all miss the memo on the fact that a PS4 pad is the original cross up
Pad players have legitimately been doing Cross Up Stick inputs for a decade right in front of everyone and people just said "that's so smart"
@@trinilawman9744 Pretty much. SonicFox even hopped on twitter to highlight the fact that the DS4's buttons can be remapped in the console's settings. He remapped all of the shoulder buttons (L1/L2/R1/R2) to be up, down, left, and right respectively so that you could use 2 methods of directional input simultaneously without having to shift your thumb anywhere. Zero complaints from the community on that.
The biggest problem with all of these methods is the asynchronous SOCD, which is unfortunately pretty damn hard to check for since most of the time it's handled by the PCB of the controller and the game is none the wiser. So if devs tried to patch their game's input handling to deal with it, it would only affect a very small portion of controllers. In other words, it's not worth the hassle. Even if TOs started checking sticks and pads by plugging them into something that can read the inputs (no way in hell they're going through all that effort) and determining whether or not SOCD is enabled, a lot of PCBs have SOCD as optional. For example on my PCB (Brook UFB), you can turn SOCD on by shorting the J2_4 and J2_5 pins. Slap a switch on that connection and boom. You got into the tourney with SOCD enabled.
The whole situation is pretty sticky and I'm curious to see how TOs start dealing with this stuff going forward.
I just get aware of how unfair are these kinds of controllers. Now I don't want to see tournaments knowing this, I don't see the point to do it. But I will organize again a tournament someday without those controllers.
@@germancastano2241 I know my comments made it seem like I don't like these controllers, but honestly I don't want any of them banned. I just want TO's to enforce the rules consistently. If you ban controllers like the crossup, you have to ban pad as well because the things that crossup allows have always been possible on pad. Likewise, if you allow pad, you have to allow the crossup. The problem I have is with TO's banning one controller, but not another one, even if they do they same thing which they perceive as an unfair advantage.
There is no such thing as a controller that is objectively better than another controller. The only thing that changes is how comfortable the person using it is, and even that changes depending on the game, and the character being played. Play a charge character? Hitbox is usually going to be faster and more consistent than stick, but only by 1-2 frames max on charge inputs. Play a grappler? SPD inputs are generally going to be faster and more consistent on stick than hitbox, but only by about 1-2 frames max again. etc.
What people choose to use as their controller ultimately comes down to picking the right tool for the job depending on what/who they play. Tekken is an odd example because it relies so heavily on single direction inputs, which generally favors hitbox/crossup (for most characters), but a bunch of other games can either favor stick or pad depending on your gameplan.
As long as your controller only allows 1 ingame bind per button (you can't bind a combination that the game won't allow or a sequence of buttons), you should be allowed to use whatever you want in my opinion. If you think that one controller should be banned for a specific reason, then any controller that has the same options should also be banned, which means that the only controller allowed would be stick since it has the simplest input layout. What your opponent is able to do with their execution, regardless of how easy/hard it might be depending on their controller isn't your opponent's problem. It's yours. Each person's options, execution, and consistency are unique to them, and them alone, regardless of their controller.
As long as your controller follows the basic rules that any controller should follow, there is no competitive advantage over another controller because nothing is preventing your opponent from using a controller that suits their needs just as well as yours, no matter what that controller might be. Banning controllers is silly in my opinion.
@@AllViolenceNoSilence It's not true. Crossup allows things that are impossible in a pad or Joystick. There is a big amount of shortcuts, and those shortcuts are possible because the crossup/hitbox changes the logic by which the game was developed.
To do two or more back dashes in a row, you press and hold back and then tap forward, that is basically a macro because with one tap you do something that requires two taps. This kind of mini-macros can be integrated to do a very complex movement, there are so many levels, and players still are discovering new shortcuts.
In a pad, if you hold the back bottom no matter how many times you tap forward a back dash the character never is going to back dash, from that point any shortcut is just impossible in a pad.
In your own words a hitbox/crossup must be banned because "you can bind a combination that the game won't allow"
People are talking about how execution shouldn't be a barrier in fighting games but that's one of the aspects that gives it depth. If everyone could do 6 ewgfs or microdashes or play Lee then those things would innately not be impressive. Since some of you guys have such a dumb view of it lemme give you an example. In soccer, seeing someone kick a curve ball is impressive because A. It's hard and
B. It's useful
Obviously the stronger something is the harder it should be for you to have access to it. If everyone could just ask the ball to curve then there would be no legendary soccer players ever. Saying how using execution as a means of preventing access from stronger moves is wrong is stupid. This controller is the same as giving yourself an extra set of hands in a boxing match. Sure, Muhammad Ali would whoop your weak ass trying to flail your arms like a dying toddler but you lasted an extra round on ring because of these arms
Seems like it makes the execution barrier lower which is a good thing, it allows people to get to the interesting part of fighting games quicker. Having two sets of directional inputs also isn't any different from what a pad provides, so I don't think it can be considered cheating for that reason, unless we're to call pads cheating as well. Controllers should be designed for optimal performance, no sense in maintaining artificial difficulty that keeps people from getting into the meat of the game by forcing people to use obsolete input methods.
The issue is that this controller doesn't actually do anything that a standard PS/Xbox isn't able to. The problem is that developers started letting their game accept directional inputs from both the Thumb Stick and the D-Pad simultaneously instead of hard restricting it to one via button config (like older games did).
The worst offender I'm aware of was Persona 4 Arena. That game was programmed such that D-Pad inputs would override Thumb Stick inputs, effectively allowing you to dynamically redefine the neutral position. This combined poorly with a lenient input detection system and allowed you to do things such as holding down on the left stick then double tapping back on the pad to get an instant double quarter circle motion out of a backdash... which was particularly egregious in a game where you auto blocked on mistimed instant block attempts. In essence if their pressure string wasn't perfect you could simply instant block backdash super to punish for 0 execution cost.
The only thing stopping you was that this technique was so far beyond awkward that very few people ever considered trying it. I believe even to this day it's still not widely known that this type of thing was possible.
Imagine F1 with some cars fitted with ABS while some without ABS. Drivers with ABS equipped can slam on the brakes all they want without locking the wheels while the other drivers without ABS equipped are exposed to making execution errors during their braking, thus giving the drivers with ABS equipped an unfair advantage in terms of driving abilities required. It would be ridiculous and the whole competition would be a joke. This is the same thing.
Imagine you got the newest car tech and you get rolled by an old AE-86. That's Knee
MainMan would still own that guy that was showing off his 22 electrics.
Y'know, I can sympathise. Anyone who's dedicated years, even over a decade to mastering inputs and execution in fighting games must feel this is a slap in the face. And I get that completely.
But keep in mind guys - fighting games are a niche. And even if the FGC pulls in lots of viewers and hype, actual game sales are comparatively low. If you don't sell games, you can't make more games. And I don't feel controller design is something that had to be set in stone, adaptation and evolution is consistent in video-game design (this generation notwithstanding), why should that adage not apply to hardware?
One last point - as the FGC is niche, there's lots of old philosophy, ideas and execution from legacy players. So why not open things up, get new blood in the community? With new execution, new theories, new meta? This seems like a great way to achieve that, at the cost of some execution. It might be a good thing, could change the focus of fighting games from challenging execution to application of said execution.
I suppose the true test is wether or not you're going to see whifs and dropped combos with this type of controller. I suspect you will - execution is not just input, it's also positioning and spacing from the opponent.
You clearly doesn't watch the video completely
THIS KILLS DF2 into PEWGF hype..
Hey Mainman, I actually pretty much modded one of my TE's with the cross up layout. Don't know if you'll see this but I'd love to send it to you maybe to play on and get your opinion as I'm trying to piece a video together when the cross up launches. Anyway after practically building one it pretty much breaks a lot of what makes Tekken special. For example everyone knows 1P mishima wave dash can be little more challenging compared to 2p since your hand placement isn't favorable where the cross up completely eliminates this by other having to tap forward and then the two right handed directional pads. At first I was like oh well you loose two fingers then need to readjust for an electric......but after maybe an hour I was hitting it like nothing from wavoo-wavoo to electric to wavoo-wavoo pewgf which is fucking absurd, not to mention i began landing df2, pewgfs even more though I can do it on stick too but I'm no kazuya veteran like you.
Tournament Organizer here. I'm not in charge of EVO, but I can explain why banning this isn't quite as simple as you may think.
It's very true that this controller gives you a significant execution advantage. But with the way this thing is programmed you can't really ban it according to its specifications unless you also ban either hitboxes, REGULAR PS4 PADS, custom button placements or *some combination of these*.
The directional inputs are mapped to the buttons, and the left analog stick is mapped to the stick. So this controller has no actual inputs that do not exist on a standard PS4 pad. It has no macros, and the ability to press opposite directions is technically possible on a standard pad and is on hitboxes, which are allowed. And it used the same programming logic for those approved controllers. We also let people change configuration on buttons for comfort, and there is no rule on where buttons must be placed on an arcade stick so long as it has all legal inputs.
So yeah, this thing is definitely a huge advantage, but it's made in a way that doesn't break any rules for acceptable controllers, and that's why it's not so easy to simply ban it.
Been using this tech in dpad. Tekken and street fighter.
That's an interesting point. The comparison with the pad is obvious, though using the stick and dpad at once is not very practical, binding your directions for example to l1, l2, etc., while counter-intuitive, could in the end give you the same advantage as this. I don't know if anyone ever used it in a tournament like that. The thing that never occured to me, that it could also be done on arcade stick (as I don't use one) - if you can map the directions to the four unused buttons, you could get a very similar setup, even without the extra four buttons. Never seen that in a tournament either. Maybe I'm wrong about the arcade stick though, I don't know. But theoretically, if the top players haven't been using these things to their advantage because of honor, or whatever, they might not go for this kind of controller either? I don't play competitively, just a casual player and a fan/tournament watcher, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
A simple software update can brick this controller if necessary
no not really and even if it could another software update from the dev could make it work again. theres no way a software update could tell the difference between this and any other third party controller/pad
@@zephune9506 you can if you know how USB identifiers work. docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/install/standard-usb-identifiers
like damn did y'all miss the memo on the fact that a PS4 pad is the original cross up
Pad players have legitimately been doing Cross Up Stick inputs for a decade right in front of everyone and people just said "that's so smart" You would have to ban the PS4 PAD also it can use the D-PAD and stick at the same time to do this SAME THING
@@alchemymeister3223 that can be easily spoofed by a software update
@@zephune9506 then, just block all the vendor products
For doing shady things
I'd like to hear what Harada's input is on this. It can't be completely positive.
Oh, he'll no doubt approve of it. It was his bright idea to butcher Paul's storyline, and to bastardise gameplay by introducing characters from other franchises with their foreign mechanics intact. I'm beginning to think Harada's the worst thing that ever happened to Tekken.
He's most likely okay with it. I don't see why Mr. Wiz is, but at this point, all we can do is accept it as is.
@@PassionFlame64 where i can see harada and mr wizard approval on this? Any tweet or something?
@@invertbrid I don't have a tweet about either of them approving it, but it sounds like it's okay for EVO. More than likely it will be okay to use at other major/challenger events.
@@PassionFlame64 hmm i see......thx for info. Pretty controversial indeed.....its technically legal while its also not. Well lets see what it will do n few majors or something
it's funny, i actually got to use this controller in person at genesis 8 and i was talking with the rep who was selling it and i mentioned this video and he said "yea the mainman one?" which is funny to consider that they've seen this video and understand the complaints
This has to be banned. "No exception" -negan voice-
made my night haha
When it get banned "Buddy , you still there?"
Geese Howard voice
*Geese* prrredictibol
It’s not banned though
Harada is gonna be hella pissed that this is allowed
Not really.. he supports the idea
If it makes him more money, why would he care?
Gonna laugh as you find out he is not lol
Mirror Harada doesn't care what the player-base thinks after Lei and Anna were released. People begged for those characters and hardly anyone plays them. Although I've seen a lot more Lei's these days for what it's worth.
@@mee091000 honestly I really don't care much for the two, but I think it's disgusting that's the kind of attitude those players displayed in the first place. It's just very ungrateful
The time people have wasted grinding electrics etc for 20 years they could have learned 3-4 languages instead and it's changed over a night. The game is balanced around that the best moves are behind a skillgap (taunt ju, ewgf, JFSR etc) so this just turn the entire gamebalance on it's head
so what. the next game can then be balanced around this. the question is wheather moves should at all be balanced around inputs.
@@Senumunu If you remove execution from Tekken it loses a part of it's identity and it's not the same game anymore. I find it odd that you prefer that game developers change their games around new controllers that come out during their lifespam instead of banning them from tournaments in which their product is used if they are considered to have unintentional concequences to the game. Try crossplaying an FPS game between a console and a PC community and tell me how that works out.
@@Aroused_Pineapple the execution part can simply be moved into optimized combos. also i really dont see why the whole industry should be frozen in time and space just bcs arcades used to be popular. reduce entry barriers for beginners and add the investment later in the progression curve. mainman is bitching here but if he was 12y old today he WOULD NEVER put all the time and effort into michimas. the younger generation simply doesnt have the patience and attention span for this anymore and neither does he. just getting high crushed turns him into a whining bitch. get with the times this isnt a fkn pillar set in stone. down the line adjustments can be made on all fronts.
@@Senumunu Developers / Namco should step in and ban them from official tournament, if you want to cheat in your own free time online that's on you. Otherwise the meta will develop into macrobox mishima/akuma fest in tournaments (which are overpowered if execution becomes a non-factor-barrier) and it will just look bad for Tekken when some kid in peru can never compete on his pad with a 35yearold American who's on his 5th controller. Tekken is balanced around execution otherwise we might just as well give Kazumi a one button electric.
The biggest problem in fighting games in this age is that ragequitters are not instant banned
I just wish they have a clearer rule when it comes to this
Only 1 set of movement inputs. It doesn't matter if its a lever, buttons, d-pad, keyboard keys, who cares. As long as you only have 1 set. I think that would be a very simple and effective rule.
kalawang man well, wouldn’t the controller that comes with your console be banned by this ruling?
@@mathewkinetix9180 Games like tekken 7 only give you 1 choice for directional inputs, either the analog stick or the d-pad. If you choose the d-pad, left analog won't work. So the solution is already inside the game.
@@pepengpantal1363 not quite... while the left stick is disabled by default in tekken 7, turning it on still leaves the d-pad active...
@@MTEllipsis oh alright. but still, can easily be implemented.
If you think the cross up is bad than how can you ever beleive that the hitbox or mixbox is ok or even pad
As a keyboard player, I think this is OP. I was on Reddit on a thread to execute PEWGF easier, and it was literally binding down, forward and button 2 on keyboard player #2 whilst keeping WSAD and everything else the same on keyboard #1 set-up. I tried it, and was able to execute PEWGF in about 5 seconds. There is a disadvantage to this method in that you can't use dash electrics (which can be overcome by doing 2x PWEGF using easy mode and then the keyboard #1 bindings to do the dash) but now there is an incentive to pull of electrics because of the damage increase, I can see this being abused.
Even then, as a keyboard player, I think keyboard is also OP in the sense that I don't have to use my weak ass ring finger to backdash; I use WSDF with D key bound to back and F to forward, so I use the same finger movement for both backdashing and wavedashing. Jumped from Usurper to Genbu in a matter of days :/
Just make them put a proximity transmitter on those at EVO, so that when a player with one enters main stage, "Chicken!" will be played.
I don't know what to say 🤔
Should just create a new rule.
No controller is allowed to have two or more input mechanics mapped to the same directional output.
U actually predicted the future
@@agssilv5919
Was this implemented in Tekken 8?
@@scarletsoju nope , tournament rules
@@agssilv5919 where is it?
Execution has been an issue for a long time.
Do remember there are people that have disabilities, and struggle to keep up simply because of execution, despite not actually being bad players; They're limited by physical capabilities.
It doesn't give you free fundamentals, it doesn't give you free spacing or reading.
It's not cheating, it's easier on one's hands, this is entitlement at it's finest, this is overall helpful. Controllers have existed that are like this for a while too. Hell, custom xbox elite controllers have existed and could be similar to this.
It’s not entitlement if a controller fucking breaks the game balancing. Electrics are crazy good and the high execution barrier is needed to stop them from being abused at lower ranks.
I’m all down for accessibility; but when accessibility messes with the core gameplay experience to such a degree, then it’s not worth including it.
Gonna play the devils advocate here but why does every single game need to cater to and account for physical disabilities? Fighting games like tekken have been super technical since the beginning; and it’s certainly not meant for everybody.
There are other games that would benefit far more from accessible features.
this decision was made to increase the number of ppl participating in the esport scene imho making everything more accessible. It's just about money.
If everything becomes more accessible , overall level will increase , making the esport scene closer to the casual / semi hardcore player scene .
more oponent = more competition = more money to invest
I really don't know what to say at this point. We either admit that fighting game "difficulty" was never a good thing or we admit that there is a serious scrub issue infecting competitive play in the FGC.
I really don't understand why anyone would make, let alone even dream of a controller that automates the game to the point that execution is almost completely axed from the equation of player skill.
The games themselves already increase input windows and simplify characters and mechanics. I mean if that's where we're going with this, why not just play Fantasy Strike and Divekick at this point?
There is a blatant war being raged against technical skill in fighting games...
I'm gonna miss the appreciation of the execution but fighting games will be brain games only which is fine but yeah it's always scary to go forward
No it's not fine
you can't win just with macros lmao, everybody's overreacting
Besides having basic movement that's more difficult, what makes Tekken different is the limit on buffering.
@@THENAMEISQUICKMAN we all know this but eliminating the execution barrier almost entirely reduces the inherent fun and allure of fighting games in the first place.
I mean my execution isn't even good and I have to rely on brains to outsmart players who do way more damage with their hits than I do, but I honestly don't get why execution is being axed from fighting games now. It allows people who are bad at execution to compete sure, but isn't that kind of the point? If you practice execution and acquire that skill, you should be rewarded for that dedication.
It allows players to approach the games differently and have different strengths. What if you're not a brainy player? Your execution may be the skill you have to compensate for that, but if the games are all brain and no brawn, every brawn-based player is basically thrown out of the game. If I wanted to play a game with zero execution and all mind games, I'd play Chess. We need to ban this controller...
I think with this thing might also make charge characters on SF broken. Their moves have overall better frames but require the charge, so you dont have access to them without it. Hence the the balancing. motion moves are worse but you can access them at all times. Therefore I can almost safely conclude charge characters would be the strongest on SF using this controller.
Every ps4 and xbox controller has a joystick AND a Dpad, so why is it weird to have more options to input directions at the same time now?
Mixbox you can do the exact same thing lmao, press right, down, let go of right, then with your right hand hit down and punch at the same time and boom easiest electrics of your life. Granted you can only quickly do this trick to the right (though you can to the left if you move your right hand a bit awkwardly but that's impractical), but is "removing the execution" any better if it's just from one side?? Not to mention electrics are an outlier, they are by far the single most affected move by this; I will give you that it does affect this game quite a fair bit, but you act like all you have to do to execute in tekken is electrics. What good is an electric if you can't time the rest of your combo, hitbox or crossup isn't helping with that. Again not to mention you can do the same shortcut on pad by moving the stick forward to down then pressing right/left on the dpad and punch at the same time with your right hand, and that one works on both sides! It's the same leniency on both, only demanding thing on either is hitting the direction and the punch on the same frame which is trivial when using the same hand for both.
yea i know i'm commenting on a 2 year old video but it got recommended to me so i figured its getting recommended to other people.
They can't make that legal. What if other sports did the same, allowed strange new tech, all sports would crumble, what are they thinking? This is so stupid.
the crazy part is that people defend this shit! lol
You can also do this in ds4 controller. So?
@@Mandingo_ no you can't
@@Mandingo_ You literally cant
@@Mandingo_ you have a name like mandingo and expect to be taken seriously lmao
Skill gaps are the building blocks of gaming, they are what make you strive to be better. You take that away you're taking gaming's soul 🤦🏽♂️
How is this any different that assigning directional button to shoulder buttons on a controller?
@@PrestonCormack you cant
"I use a mix box but this is cheating not my thing, only this"
Nope XD either we're going full arcade stick only or this is allowed too
KBD backdash cancel was never intended. If anything then KBD was a slap into the developers' faces and more so a slap into anyone's face who wanted to consider picking the game up at later stages of the series lifecycle. Yes, just frame WGF was supposed to be hard but both the gamepad and the arcade stick lever are unreliable input devices. Why would you gatekeep people like that? Some people also inherently have a superior left-right-hand coordination and sync. To them any EWGF is trivial (no matter which device they play on).
Again, we all accept that keyboards are a viable and valid option right? They have been there since forever and longer than gamepads, joysticks and arcade sticks. Some boomers don't know anything besides them. TMM is not ranting about the CrossUp. In fact, he is holding contradicting views. He accepts HitBox and keyboards but CrossUps are an issue although you were able to configure the button layout on keyboard to do whatever the CrossUp allows doing? Really?
Let's tackle the root cause of the problem. That's in fact that EWGF (especially 13 frames) is broken! 13 frame advancing party starter and combo tool, whiff punish and pressure tool that is +5 (!!!) on block. In the hands of someone who mastered this it is a meme move that should not exist. If normal WGF is minus on block then EWGF should be +1 at best.
It is funny how Tekken boomers want new players to come into their game at the same time they want someone to spend 10 years to learn how to do one move from one character with consistency. You need to come with solid arguments on why should this be banned at Evo. It is because has 2 sets of diretional input? Oh well so we have to ban Dualshock too.
The series jand community needs to adapt to this new "technology" (isn't even a new technology just a clever way to use the inputs that was always there)
Imagine at F1 if people discover a new fuel technology (lighter and generates more combustion) available to everyone but TMM Motors don't want to use it because his engineers will need to adapt his cars and that demand time and money. So instead of TMM Motors start to use this new fuel he proceeds to complain to everyone how this new fuel is cheating, any new pilot now can beat Schumacher track records and that is not fine. And TMM Motors sstay surprised when they allow people to use the new fuel in the next season....but, it's cheating...
the crossup controller has SOCD cleaning, meaning that it actually CAN'T input opposing directions at the same time.
so no, you can't "cheat" with it. it does make playing charge characters a little easier, but you could do the exact same thing on pad, or just a standard hitbox controller.
this thing is not even in the same ballpark as "macro territory"; it won't allow you to input multiple button presses with one button. it's frankly kind of sad for you to even suggest it.
Hee Ho finally some said it thank you kinda stranger
The bottomline is people that aren't good at fighting games aka scrubs will be all for this and good players that have practiced and grinded for years will be against this. I agree with you 100%, this is cheating and it's stunning that EVO approved this but they only care about money so bringing in noobs is more money in their pockets.
No, it wont make u good players, u still need practice for that. Doing electrics and kbd easier =/= playing tekken better
Invert Brid yea lmao...I’ve faced countless noobs who can do electrics on cue, and never drop combos yet they suck in everything else, punishes nothing, never ducks on a string with an obvious high, and can’t even punish a snake edge lmao...so what’s the point? This only matters amongst people at the highest level, say nobi or knee or lowhigh switch to the Crossup, then that’s a scary combination but who knows if they ever will, so far I haven’t seen any top Japanese or Korean players switch to a Hitbox or Mixbox completely, ONLY just recently last one or two tournaments I’ve seen Kokkoma using a mixbox type controller, that’s it, none of the traditional arcade stick players ever switched, even though it’s agreed that hitbox and Mixbox are superior to arcade sticks at full potential
As a Smash 64 and melee player i can understand where you are coming from. It took me years to build consistent muscle memory in both games. At the same time i do like the idea of altering the barrier of entry for newer competitive players and raising the bar for veterans. I think the big problem is having a certain controller or fight stick become required in competitive play. I do not think it is a good idea to let this remain legal for tekken or other current games but i think in future games if companies develop around the idea of people playing with these custom controllers it could be a really good thing for fighting games as a whole. I personally do not get competitive in traditional fighting games because the controllers and required inputs feel janky and inconsistent. Having something like the hitbox would make someone like me feel more inclined to learn a traditional fighting game instead of having to grind for hours on a single move just so you can use it on a basic level.
There are two things that make the situation about this controller hard to deal with.
1. People are allowed to use custom controllers. This is usually at least as long as they are recognized by the game as exactly one button press and there are no copies of a button, so the game does not recognize two separate buttons as the same.
2. Tekken 7 allows multiple, separate buttons for directional input, as you can see somewhere in button mapping etc. in options.
There is no nice way to forbid this controller without breaking rule changes.
You would say that you cannot use controllers with multiple directional inputs, but this would make pads forbidden - they have both analog stick and d-pad for directional inputs and they both work at he same time. Even there is a picture on hitbox site that shows it. This controller is just a pad pcb connected to buttons and bigger stick, it is actually nothing big of a custom. You can button map keyboard to do the same.
Or you would say you cannot customize in some specific way, but you won't be able to get them all immediately and there will always be people coming with their customs bending the rules more and more, so you would have say like only pads and sticks are allowed and nothing else, so no customs at all. Something like "if the controller has any directional input under buttons, you cannot use another set of directional inputs" sounds artificial and people will be clever to get around this.
Or Tekken would be made to accept only one set of directional inputs. It would probably ignore pads' stick completely and this controller would then be illegal as having separate buttons recognized as exactly the same input by the game (after modyfing its internals, because it would not work at all at first). But this would have to be done inside Tekken and every other FGC.
No way to get around this, it will always be controversial until we deny customs completely or change FGC execution curve so that using THIS controller is hard as well and make everyone practice the new hard things on THIS controller.
Well i've played tekken with a different variety of characters. I main Mishimas, and i havent learned a consistent electric yet. If i could pick up the game and execute 22 ewgf in a row. Thats like a wet dream coming true. This is straight up BS
#letsriot
you can do 22 straight electrics in a row if you use pad and change the settings up a bit homie. I know im a year late but I stumbled upon the crossup war lol
Both Pad and Keyboard are already capable of doing everything this controller does.
After a year of playing tekken seriously I was excited of doing 8 ewhf in a row.... Dropping only 1 with a whf.... It's been greatful and satisfying.... With this it won't be any fun or satisfaction. It's just a step before a macro imput controller
I don't really understand the emotional reaction to sticks that have an atypical input scheme. It seems like a lot of people are essentially using conservative arguments like "they're not playing the way I consider traditional!" The difference between this stick and the traditional layout stick is essentially usage time within this argument.
However...
If that's not the best reason to use, and another reason for it's opposition is a perception of unjust ease-of-input, is this a good argument? Is making certain inputs easier or different, or adding new inputs, a "crutch?"
Should controller technology and tradition never be advanced or changed? Just completely off the table for discussion and experimentation? [On analog sticks] Would people defending the DualShock 1 be right to oppose the DualShock 2 using this argument? Sticks made easier full-circles and half-circles, I'm sure Zangief players enjoy this luxury. I hope one finds that an argument inconsistently applied is a poor argument.
If one is supposed to be persuaded to object to this stick I think some better reasons are obligatory. This video was kinda ramble-y and only really had these two arguments.
One could argue for things like rules/regulations that are mandated to ensure input scheme *symmetry* between players, but thats a different argument. Within that context one couldn't even bring a flight stick, a Guitar Hero controller, a Mixbox, a steering wheel, a keyboard, or a bag of potatoes with a MIDI output. Regardless of if one can input commands easier, harder, or different, using a certain controller it would be banned a priori. Using this argument I think is better than "kids these days won't struggle for 15 years to do 22 whatever-the-fucks in a row like I did and that's bad somehow." Input schemes shouldn't arbitrarily keep things *that* hard to do... It kinda makes communities elitist and hard to break into, and as if the FGC wasn't elitist or hard enough to break into.
I'm sticking to good ol' traditional layout because of simple personal preference. But I'd honestly like to see the skill curve of games reduced so more people can enjoy them and be competitive. I can see some good arguments for tournament restriction, but for personal use I don't see any good arguments. If this catches on and becomes tradition, what's the problem?
The problem is that fighting games lose a crucial part of their identity as a genre, which is execution.
@@davidparry5310 that falls under conservativism
@@8523metalhead Maybe it does, but so be it. I tell you what, though, I'm as far left as it's possible to be politically, and it is rather amusing to me how far to the right I lurch when it comes to my favourite genre of games. I'm pretty elitist, and suspicious of anything that smacks of dumbing down fighting games, because their complexity in terms of execution (amongst other things) is, to me, part of what makes them emotionally rewarding, but also because it's part of their identity and uniqueness as a genre, and because I think it cheapens excellence. With respect to Tekken, specifically, I don't want characters from other game franchises coming along and diluting the purity of the gameplay with their foreign mechanics, and take the position that they should either be adapted to Tekken (i.e. leave said mechanics behind) or not be introduced in the first place, and you should see me complain about how players of no other major fighting game franchise have to put up with this sort of shit, but with Tekken it's different for some reason! I sound just like a neo-Nazi complaining about how every other racial group is allowed nations for themselves except white people!
Yeah, I guess I am pretty far right when it comes to fighting games.
To be fair most fighting games don't need more than 6 buttons so I never understood why there were 8 buttons everywhere. 4 directions and 6 buttons was so easy to set it as strong rules for the standard and now we are paying the price for not doing it before.
This reminds me of when electronics first got introduced in paintball. Being able to maintain a high rate of fire without chopping paint used to be a valued skill. Then everyone could do it.
The controllers should be standardized.
They're already are; this is making a controller within the rules for users who prefer button-based movement.
@@lilkwarrior5561 I guess I mean completely standardized. As in everyone uses the same controller.
Zach Sundberg That violates a lot of rights for a wide variety of players to be able to play the game when a game needs gamers of all kinds as much as possible have an idea that the game is accessible to the to thrive
Picking up Jin and Kazuya recently (playing on DS4) I actually miss 22 electrics in a row before landing one
Always a win when you hear that electric sizzle, even if you whiff it.
I’m a kazuya main and it took my 2 months to do 3 electrics in a row
2 months? lol
@@guiforster i was doing 5 in less than 2 months lol, now i can do 6 since last two months. But i felt so good i can't describe it lol...
Wtf I play stick and could do a 5 electric combo consistently in a week, I can only guess you were spamming it trying to "get the timing right" without looking at the command history and adjusting? Kazuya even has the easiest electric in the game requiring you to only input d,n,df+2 how could it take 2 months lol
Well not everyone plays daily. If he plays like 1 hour a week? That's only about 8 hours? That's not that long. And even then I don't think he spent all 8 hours in practise mode. Just an example
@@asefrahman7838 well then he shouldnt be complaining if thats his dedication level
I doubt lumberjacks felt like the gas-powered chainsaw was a spit in the face when it was introduced and gradually replaced the handsaw. "Chainsaw? PFFT! It requires less practice, less strength! A lesser man's tool..."
"Why would I need a car? I have a perfectly good horse carriage right there."
Attitudes like this is why the FGC will always stay niche. Hard execution was a result of arcade machines needing people to put more money into the machine in order to perfect their gameplay. Hard execution is now a barrier to new gamers getting into a fighting game.
So what’s your solution? Rebuild the entire game? Cos that’s what you’ll have to do if you remove the execution barrier. And what’s wrong with a genre staying niche? Fighting games have risen in popularity contrary to what you imply.
It’s just that gaming as a entertainment media has grown at a ridiculous pace so it seems like fighting game popularity hasn’t grown at all, when it has.
Hell, tekken 7 has sold 10 million copies by this point.
NOTHING will be done until we get an Akuma player who can wavu wavu
Finding a Kazuya online used to be hard and was something to look forward to. Nowadays he is one of the most played characters on pc and usually just annoying to play against because 80% of these Kazuya players are using macros or playing on keyboard/hitbox.
Exactly
I know this is 2 years ago but you can't just expect someone to buy a $150 or more fight stick when their keyboard works fine and even better
only scrubs call a certain type of controller cheating, as long as it doesn't have macros it's fair fucking game.
The more complex imputs of special attacks are intended to make those moves harder to execute, that is the whole point, the developers know that D-pads and Joysticks have 2 restrictions, 1) it is imposible to imput 2 adjacent directions; and 2) because of this, there is a short travel time if you wanna imput an opposite direction after another, unlike keyboards and leaverless controllers.
Knowing this, game developers used it for their advantage and balanced their characters by using complex imputs for special moves, which offer more damage and utility, but at the cost of a little time waste at the execution of the command, this is further reinforced when you see games like Mortal Kombat, where the game designers intentionally eliminated any complex imput, using 1 or 2 directions for each special attack as a mean to expand the characters move list rather than using the commands to balance their game, thats why in MK they use 1 button dedicated to block, so the players can go forward without the travel time of the stick, relying almost entirely on frame data to balance their characters.
And as said before, only D-pads and joysticks have this physical restrictions, which are there by design and then used by fighting game designers to balance their games, on the contrary, keyboards and leaverless controllers do not have this restrictions, giving any player that takes the time to get use to them to unfairly bypass a game mechanic.
I am not against keyboards and leaverless controllers themselves, I am against their use in games like KOF and SF where the physical mechanics of the controllers are a part of the game balance system, however, these controllers are perfectly fine for games like DNF Duel, MK and Injustice, since their balance system relies on frame data and hitboxes, thats why their developers intentionally removed complex imputs.
I can finally play with 1 hand.
Hell yeah, brother. Especially with "those" mods :^)
Gna need that other hand when you play Josie 😏
Waiting for the Taunt- Jet Upper edition..
Months or years for KBD lol!?! More like an hour of actual dedicated practice to get it down and another 10 of actual dedicated practice to do it consistently in real matches. And weren't you advocating for removing KBD from the game just a few months ago? (which is something I heavily disagree with)
Electric isn't hard because of the dp motion. It's hard because of the timing. Guy clearly had great rhythm. He's not gonna whiff punish with electrics, do electrics out of movement or do df2 into PEWFG any time soon at least in real games. As long as there are no macros, pressing F, B or U, D at the same time leads to neutral and all of the buttons behave the same (as in normal directional inputs), it should be fine.
Also: What if a guy who doesn't have fingers in his left hand wants to use a controller with additional buttons and maybe even footswitches for directions? Is he not allowed to do that?
Coming from CS, I don't see the problem here. That scene has evolved so much due to improvements in hardware that any changes to controllers that aren't adding macros, seem very inconsequential for Tekken. They have gone from 60hz to 144hz to 240hz, from ball mouses to laser mouses to optical mouses to wireless optical mouses. Sometimes Valve has been forced to change the balance (like nerfing dmg and accuracy of assault rifles and pistols) and sometimes the meta has evolved to account for gear that enables higher technical prowess. In Dust 2, there is a gap which one team is forced to cross at round start while the other team can try to snipe them. With 60hz, even the best players can't react to it consistently, so back in the day, it was relatively safe to cross it without smokes and "hype" if someone hit the shot. Now with 240hz, even an average player can hit that shot every time after a bit of practice. You could have argued that the gap was designed to be unreactable and maybe some people did, but in that case, no changes were made. Players just started to smoke the gap every time. Game doesn't require any less skill now.
MZZA you give an interesting perspective with CS. Different competitions have either a conservative or progressist culture. Some people want things to stay frozen in time while others like things to evolve. Same with politics in society. I live in Japan where people still use fax machines. My home country France promotes a faster pace for change.
It's a preference in the end. I think the problem here is that as a member of the tekken community, you don't know what can happen next. TMM is rightfully frustrated here because there is no governing body that sets rules and discusses changes. A better system would be what we did for society: representation through vote, and legislation to have official positions on topics. This way even if you disagree with a change, you can respect that there was a discussion and the majority of people wanted what you didn't. It can make you reflect on things which is healthy
Loser comment
Since Tekken was designed for an arcade stick I think that should be the standard for tournament play. I understand the frustration, but a pad had multiple directional inputs as well..if a pad can be legal I don't see why a hitbox can't.
I'm not sure why there isn't a rule against duplicate inputs. In the software even the ps4 should be able to blocked i'm guessing right?
It depends on which duplicate inputs you're talking about. I'm down with banning means of performing more than one directional input simultaneously. Banning means of performing more than one attack input, on the other hand, is a totally different matter.
Is there button to make lags when opponent does combo? There are too much cheats already in online matches. People use macro, lag makers, giving advantage modes and now this shit slowly becomes permitted. It all started with DLC that allows 1 button sample combos - pay to win at green ranks. p2w becomes a common thing.