The Hitbox Rant
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Hitbox users are cheating! ...good for them! Brian shares his thoughts on the recent Hitbox discourse, and settles once and for all whether leverless controllers are cheating in fighting games.
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In case you guys aren't fully aware of how PS4 pad already breaks all the arcade stick rules, here's a quick video showing how the flood gates have been burst open for years: ruclips.net/video/RFFu351TE60/видео.html
Couldnt they update modern games to not allow the joystick and dpad to be used for motion on pad (choose one or the other) then ban hitbox to avoid all socd issues?
@@nubesock5231 No because with a PS5 edge pad you can still map directions to the back of it. And with sony owning evo they are not going to ban thier official controllers
@@nubesock5231 Or we could just stop pretending stick has to be the standard simply because that's what it was 20 years ago.
@@vegta1000 - No but they could make them disconnect the paddles. They're removable.
HitBoxes were designed to be ergonomic and efficient by nature. You are typing commands VS levering them. Typing being ergonomically advantageous is not even a discussion. I typed this out... the action of typing hasn't changed in nearly 500 years because it's so efficient. Getting used to it for this function and retraining our brain is the issue, it's on the user. The fact Hitboxes were a nothing burger and now the people that have spent time with them, the people that were T8'ing anyway and are still T8'ing with Hitboxes really tells you one thing. There was a reason to change and it was advantageous - otherwise why take the time, they would have hit T8 anyway.
Now... IF it was just because sticks are a bitch for causing arthritis - sure. But lets be real. Nobody goes through all that effort just to try stop something that's going to happen anyway, especially not pro's. There's always an endgame play.
HitBox in theory, by design and by nature is faster and more accurate. Thems facts.
They appear to be sort of a "Win more" device. If you were going to win, that win just became more certain because of consistency with a more accurate tool. Which on it's own isn't bad, but if "Use a box or you're doing it wrong" becomes a thing... Well that would be beyond shit.
Should it be banned if that happens? Too early to say anything really.
"So I don't know, man, I don't know, I just feel like, shut the fuck up" ~ Brian_F, 2022
Truly an inspirational quote for the ages. Great rant, 10/10
The moment Boomer_F became Bully_F 💀
@: 19:20
I read this right when he said it haha
Motion inputs are definitely more intuitive on stick, but hit box provides much better feedback. On stick, I often find myself wondering how I messed up a particular input because I can't feel where each switch inside the stick activates/deactivates, where as on hit box I can usually feel what I'm doing wrong because I can see and feel my fingers as they press the buttons.
I hope they never ban Hitbox cuz it’s a perfect OS when losing, I’ll never have to own up to my own shortcomings as long as I can go “GGs cheatbox user”
Not enough people are mentioning keyboards (which are essentially hitboxes) tbh. PC has become much bigger, with some major fighting games like Tekken and GG having bigger playerbases on there. I can guarantee you that way more people are playing fighting games on keyboard nowadays than they do on stick, and banning that would be pretty similar to banning pads back when consoles took over arcades.
What I agree with is that the game should be the one to decide what happens when you press 2 opposite inputs simultaneously. In Tekken for example, holding back and forward results in neutral by default.
To me using a keyboard for fighting games is super uncomfortable. Buttons are too small and close together and my wrist starts aching after 5 mins of using the movement inputs
@@GIZREED rebind them to be wider apart then, I've seen some folks do QEG, or 2EF. Basically rest your hands comfortably on your keyboard the way people lay their hands on a hitbox, and see where your fingers rest and bind em to those.
I've played fighting games on the side for years on keyboard- one thing I used to do was pull a few keycaps around the buttons I use mainly for extended sessions, so there are no buttons nearby to get in the way, and you can map your buttons to spread out in the appropriate ways for you.
"Lets just allow cheating because too many people do it"
@@Wilkins325 so do you have an actual argument or
As someone who made the change to a leverless controller a couple of months ago, the "posture" of playing on stickless is very important, but if you get it correct it is tremendously less impact on your wrists and forearms. Most of the older folks I know in the FG scene have all gone to stickless for ergonomics.
I'm about to make the transition to leverless, but I'm using keyboard to test it out before making the jump. I get wrist pain and can feel strain not even 10 mins in. What's optimal posture like?
@@Smur95 To some extent it depends on what your arm/wrist health is. Hitbox company insists the best method is to hover your hands like playing piano, but I have nerve damage in my neck/shoulder so I rest my hands with a keyboard wrist rest, and my elbows bowed outwards. Do regular stretches too!
@@barbedwings Funny you mention that because I was thinking about a snackbox build where I attach the snackbox and a palm wrest to a cutting board lol. Sounds like it should work
@@Smur95 Yeah, a lot of folks in FGC Boomers (all in our 30s and 40s) use Snackbox Micros with a wrist rest like a keyboard.
I have problems with my hand health and as far as my particular condition goes, hitbox/keyboards are by far the most damaging type of devices to my health.
The funny thing is that using Hitbox is a lot like driving Standard Transmission. It's easy, unless you EVER think about what you're doing. As soon as you stop to think about the inputs again, you're done.
I think it's actually pretty easy to draw a line here and I think that line ought to be drawn at adding extra ways to input the same thing strictly for the purpose of removing execution barriers, such as with the infamous hitbox crossup stick. You want to use buttons instead of a stick? Cool. Keys or even a full keyboard? Go for it. But when you're adding an *extra* down button above your usual right hand buttons exclusively for the purpose of something like completely nullifying the execution of performing electrics in Tekken, then you've gone too far.
The usual argument here is to compare it to a pad which has both an analog stick & a d-pad, but the difference is that it's highly impractical to use both those things on a pad, and it's not designed for you to do so. Whereas with the crossup, the entire point of the design is to design the controller in a way that allows you to completely circumvent intentional execution difficulty.
most extra buttons are used as just extra buttons for shortcuts that are already in the game, like fd in ggst being a button or something, and most people use just an average hitbox, (and styles with both are usually just for specific games) and that’s pretty much why no one cared about the Cross|Up potentially getting banned and i’m also pretty sure it has socd cleaning, and would technically be more legal than pad.
Another thing about hitbox support is that hitbox support is keyboard support, and keyboard support makes fighting games accessible to a lot of people, so they can just pick up a game without having to buy an expensive controller to play it.
Man, this is almost like if there was a competitive scene with rhythm games, the ones that use dance mats and taiko drum controllers would ban other people from using keyboards and gamepads.
After writing that, having all those 4 options in different leagues does make an amount of sense, so that was a bad comparison.
But reminds me of how the speedrunning scene does often list what hardware and software version the runner was using. Things like how the PC and console versions can be very different, sometimes different enough to be their own categories on the leaderboards. Sometimes the differences are considered tiny enough that they are on the same leaderboard, but it is noted down if the runner was using an actual NES or a more accessible emulator.
I imagine that the different controllers in hypothetical competitive rhythm game tournaments would be placed in different categories, similar to how shooters in most cases probably have different matchmaking for player bases that use mouse+keyboard and the ones that use pad.
Anyways, even if one controller is clearly superior to the other, I feel like that it shouldn't be completely alienated from the whole scene.
To me it's slightly amusing that the Smash Bros community is still primarily using gamecube controllers, seemingly oddly stuck to their old ways of the Melee version of the series. I think that people are still allowed to use one single wii-mote or joy-con when entering tournaments, although it is sort of considered trolling.
Sort of reminds me that Nintendo consoles probably don't have any fightstick support by default. Otherwise I'm not sure what that scene would look like, hahah. Would be a neat little alternate timeline.
Anyways, that became a lengthier wall of text than I imagined.
Anyways, I believe that the two main controllers discussed in the video are equal enough. And even if one of them was superior, I feel like the community shouldn't maybe go full "reject modernity, embrace tradition" route.
Hmm, I guess there's budget reasons too. Which I'm not an expert on, but if my memory serves, the prices of the options are something like keyboard>gamepad>fightstick>hitbox? And as has been brought up, I think that keyboard functions almost similarly to a hitbox, if not exactly so, at least with this SOCD situation. Anyways, I believe that the game/software itself should be the deciding factor on how those are handled.
Also makes me wonder if the fight stick could be remapped for the heck of it. Lever for kicks and punches etc, the right side buttons for movement, hahah.
Anyways, I've probably ran out of things to scattermindedly list, at least for now. Personally was just surprised to learn that some hardass-elitists consider the thing a big issue.
Nobody should be complaining especially since BrolyLegs is able to compete at the level he is at. It's what you're comfortable with and your skill at the game.
It's funny to me that I have the reverse problem.
Playing with mixbox was easy for me because I come from a keyboard background. The transition to stick and pad is hell.
I think environment has a bigger role to play in what device is more comfortable than which inputs are easier on which device.
It's always good to step out of your comfort zone and try things. I think, ultimately, that the best controller really is whichever one you can best use, so long as it's also a legal one(unless you don't tourney!)
I completely agree. Hardware logic here sounds like modding the controller. All logics should be decided by the game. Else it's like hacking by taking a workaround to do stuff
Except that falls apart when you find out WHY the HitBox even introduced the hardware level SOCD.
Tldr the Huffer brothers added that *because* they found games that weren't handling this situation and were _allowing_ things like Auto blocking crossups. Notably Marvel 3.
Ignoring the fact that modding a controller is legal if it's not a macro, SOCD is necessary at the hardware level when games could have some funky stuff happen if both inputs are taken in at face value. That or in brawlhalla where a huge player base uses keyboard it just takes the most recent opposite input and ignores the earlier one, but even then the game has evidence that funky shit happens when you hit both buttons on the same frame.
@@doublevendetta those games are playable on pad, no?
Then the devs knew about it.
@@harrylane4 except no one SOCDs on pad cause that requires one finger on the dpad and another on the analog, which devs hella did not test. Absolutely an oversight.
Hardware SOCD logic is necessary rn cause games don't exactly handle it properly or consistently yet. In Marvel 3 by holding both directions you'd block on both sides negating crossups with non SOCD cleaning hardware, and that was part of what led to SOCD cleaning become not only standard but required in basically every tournament ruleset. Personally I just think it's fine to have SOCD cleaning on the hardware side if the rules surrounding it are clear, which rn, IMO, they are in most tournaments. People are complaining about this unnecessarily, hitbox is strong and there's all there is to it.
Here's the fundamental question, does the developer intended for super to be executed with only 4 frames? If they do, then hitbox is not cheating. If they don't then it's a cheat or at best an exploit.
Agreed. And I dont like the idea of having to buy special equipment to be at an equal playing field
@@tongpoo8985 it only really matters in professional play. just use what you want.
did you miss the part where he said the shortcut can be done on pad? #banpad
unless youre doing it in neutral it really doesnt matter, even then its a few frames difference at most.
@@hmad898 I know you can also do it on pad, but doing it on pad is not practical at all and it's not usable in a real fight.
@@tongpoo8985 You didn't pay for your first controller or stick?
I think you hit the nail on the head with the idea that the software should determine what form of SODC is used.
I think the biggest issue stick players have is that it's physically impossible to hold 2 directions on a stick.
Add to that the fact that when you hold left and right on a hitbox and let go of one of them it counts that as pressing the direction you're still holding. What I think the beef here is, is that certain motions in fighters are themselves part of the balance of certain moves, and the devs haven't realized they're not making arcade games anymore. On a keyboard, pad or hitbox, you can do a walkbalk Ryu super, or dp, and still block. This messes with the balancing of the move as you're not supposed to be able to block while doing these things.
At the end of the day though, it's on the devs to figure this out. If something can be done on one form of input, you can't really ban other controllers that do the same thing.
of course Hitbox motions have geomotry:
simply imagine a curved non euclidian space
I swear to god there used to be the argument when consoles were starting to see fighting games come on different systems between pads and sticks where people would say a stick allowed you to piano buttons better so it was faster.
I've said this a million times this last week. ASD + Spacebar should not be banned. Period.
Now, SOCD cleaners should be banned. The games should decide. As it stands now, the game NEVER decides what to do with SOCDs because it NEVER sees the SOCDs.
So in my opinion THIS is the solution. Ban the cleaners. Or have a tournament lockout switch that disables it.
And I think Brian is the FIRST person to provide the correct answer.
ok bro when you cant stop Guile from doing walking back/forward instant flashkicks, remember that logic
@@egg64 Remember to read next time when he says the game should decide. If Guile is able to do that then that's on Capcom.
@@vaudou_ Capcom also failed to make a game where half the stages don't have to be banned from competitive. What's your point?
@@mechadeka The point is obvious to people who aren't idiots looking to argue
@@vaudou_ so fuck those old games or should we hope capcom updates these games to be hitbox legal??
You could ban use of whatever control you don't use on pad, ex if you use d pad then analog use isn't allowed I guess.
If TOs were willing to use the superior platform (PC) for their events, someone could just write an SOCD cleaning Windows driver, which would solve SOCD for all games that have a PC port.
I agree that it is more of a software(devs dealing with it) problem than the controller itself. Fighting games are technically built around the fight stick, so it does make sense to say that it is the right way to play fighting games. But the thing is, arcades are no longer a thing(unless you're in Japan apparently) and that's not likely to change. So it is only natural that the tournaments/community and games being developed will have to adapt to the fact that the majority of people don't play the game the way they were initially "intended to be played", and that it is not feasible to force/expect people to use arcade sticks. So it is either let the fgc become even a more niche community with time, or adapting to the natural change of paradigm/controller
You and Aris really helped put some things into perspective. Thanks for the awesome videos, Brian. I don't give af at all about Street Fighter but you're a great content creator and resource for anyone who wants to get better at their games.
Don't they completely disagree?
@@Jack91790 Yes. Disagreements usually help an outside party (me in this instance) have more clarity because I get to see two different viewpoints and the common ground they might have.
I made a hacked hit box some 10 years ago and I never even knew about all the stuff you could do with it until hitbox got big.
Jokes on you Brine. Im a keyboard player. It was very intuitive to play hitbox. Greetings from EU
I'm going through the relearning process now! WHY? Im a dpad player and tired of misjumps misinputs. OMG! 3 days in now and it's such a world of difference. I love ALL BUTTON CONTROLLERS!!!
What's the song that starts at 15:07?
Jazz Club - Anarchy Reigns
@@BrainGeniusEditor Thank you
I switched to hitbox because while I was playing pad, I would always jump by accident and get demolished for it; this is because on pad, you can hit the back button and accidentally jump if you push the top of the back button too hard. Fighting sticks have always felt unnatural to me and I could never get used to it (I even used to play stick inputs at the arcade when I was a kid).
i played sf2 on snes and got so tilted at the d-pad that i started using keyboard
"Arcade stick is how fighting should be played" I wholly agree, the way that feels comfortable is how fighting games should be played. I play street fighter in hit box, I'm going to play strive on stick.
I mentioned this on another channel but the Hitbox/leverless controller debate has the Nike Alphafly/Vaporfly racing shoe vibes during the 2020 Olympics where it was considered as "technological doping" by some people. Basically these shoes contained a carbon plate which enabled runners to run more faster due to more effective energy transfer. They were banned by the World Athletics for the 2020 Olympics who governs the rules for racing. There are carbon plated legal racing shoes now after guidelines were set.
By the same token, for the stick vs leverless controller debate we need guidelines on how to handle SOCD kind of like how World Athletics has allowed carbon plated shoes but with clear caveats. Whether it is at the hardware or game level is another question. This is not a new problem in the competitive sports. Look at all the different shoes runners race in, the different bows used in archery, and types of swimsuits worn by swimmers. Different gear provides different advantages and this is no different.
All the unfair advantages of leverless controllers are resolved if the SOCD is set to "First-input Controlled Priority." That eliminates instant blocking (skipping neutral) when walking forward, eliminates fast walking back and forth (skipping neutral), and eliminates crouching Flash Kicks (skipping neutral). For modern fighting games with SOCD, design the software to be set to First-input Controlled Priority and ban any hardware setting that's not set to Natural or No Resolution. For older fighting games with No Resolution SOCD, have the hardware set to First-input Controlled Priority, ban the rest of the settings. Problem solved.
Required reading here:
www.hitboxarcade.com/blogs/support/what-is-socd
That's pretty extreme. If I'm reading the blog post correctly, your proposal means: When you hold L then hit R (for example), you get N, and in order to get R you need to both let go of L _and_ re-press R. In other words, if a player doesn't absolutely perfectly release one direction before hitting the other, they get squat. Compare this to how levers behave: It doesn't matter "how" you go from L to R, the lever automatically ensures that L is released before R is hit.
There are far less extreme ways to implement SOCD cleaning that does away with neutral-skipping unless the player does frame-perfect inputs - in other words, complete parity with what's possible on lever.
@ No. First-input Controlled Priority is you hold L -> you hold R -> what happens is that you only get a held L. You have to then let go of L and press R again.
@@Arek_1 right, I understand. My points stand. It's a very extreme approach that makes buttons much, much worse than lever.
@ With Last Input Priority, the change in direction is done through tapping, skipping neutral. In First Input Priority, the change in direction is done through release, skipping neutral. Gotta be First-input Controlled Priority.
And letting go of left/right to press right/left or the same for down and up in theory isn't awkward. In those cases, that's the greatest sudden change in movement for your wrist. More akin to a gross motor skill than a fine motor skill.
@@Arek_1 you're assuming that the only way to prevent "unfair" neutral skipping is to implement the "controlled" style. That's not the case. There are ways to achieve that without making things incredibly clunky. Have you ever played a delay-based game online? The way that those games sometimes just eat your inputs is very similar to how it would feel to use last input controlled priority without perfect execution. You would often hit a button only for absolutely nothing to happen.
I challenge you to try a half circle or 360 on buttons and perfectly release left before hitting right every single time. It is nowhere near as easy as you're making it sound.
If we want to be pedantic and use that logic(Pad+analog=Hitbox) then an easy solution would be disable thumbstick on controller or play with an actual pad.. Realistically though, controller players wouldn't use analog stick in a match to try to create double inputs. The risk/reward is not practical in a competitive match due to the nature of analog stick not being reliable or fast enough for that matter to create double inputs compared to a Hitbox. Online at home play with w/e you want.
We're all thinking about this more than the developers are
i think people from the arcade era do find it more intuitive and games are built around the physical design of a stick which does help but people who grew up with pad find that intuitive and now in poorer countries where pad is the premium option, people find keyboard more intuitive cause that's what they grew up with. it's almost like a funky love triangle of sorts that stick boomers are shitting on hitboxes for unfair advantage, poor pad users are envying stick cause they think that's the intended way to play fgs and the poorest in line, keyboard players in 3rd world countries think anything above is better while arguably using what's considered the most "superior" input option overseas which is all button at the end of the day, similar to hitbox. there is a component of hardware socd cleaning but it's not relevant to the mechanical advantage of shorter actuation time. people should understand there are pros and cons to all of these options and that there really doesn't have to be a financial gear gate for most people, because all button controllers are incredibly easy to build with open source firmware AND hardware nowadays. same goes for shoebox sticks, mechanical keyboards and well, pad is free if you own a console.
Idk, I’m a zoomer that started with pad and has tried hitbox as well, I just like stick the most 🤷♀️
@@Tomatonator stick also has a fun factor because of game design intentions targeting stick. i'd probably find it fun to play on as well after getting used to the lack of precision. big buttons and a big ol metal rod to waggle around sure sound inherently fun.
Brian just made the potemkin box valid and me using stick is just boomer refusing to change
About your finger pain, have you tried never removing the fingers from the buttons? I've noticed your hand hovers quite a bit over it, probably due to how a stick is usually higher than the base of the wood, which forces you to do a lot more movement whenever you're, say, switching from left to right (tilting hand). If you use it like a keyboard with four buttons and your fingers are always touching the buttons, you'll have fingers which are dedicated to certain directions (good for training muscle memory) and you'll also have less movement overall (good for speed, consistency, and should reduce pain as fingers will move less distances).
If the pain continues, you could also look into lower actuation force buttons.
Just start making everything half and whole circle inputs rather than double qcf and shoryu inputs /s
Though admittedly, I feel like the places where hitbox does have some input jank, it seems like it's predominantly with lightning fast charge inputs, and anything where the stick doesn't continue in one fluid motion around the edge of the gate. Like shoryus, double qcfs, stuff like that
That orb arcade stick looks comfy for some hands.
I had to transition to what I could afford at the time, because playing with pad and also playing Smash busted my hands. So I ended up taking a gamble on a mixbox clone as a cheap way to play with a leverless controller to save my hands.
It has only made me better because, with less hand pain, I could make better strides in learning fighting games. I was simply able to put in more time into fighting games, the inputs being more precise was a bit plus for me. Thought my life, arcade stick or analogue stick or dpad, I would always misinput and jump. Leverless controllers really cut down on that.
Maybe someday I’ll get my hands on a Smash Bros style leverless controller and go back to it. I’m starting to miss it a bit.
Cope this post was made by the keyboard clan
Back in 2009 I wanted access to all my buttons in a comfortable format and switched to stick. Felt like the more comfortable option but you learn there are pros and cons between each input device. Took a while to get used to it but was happy I did. No thumb pain after long sessions.
I bought the branded hitbox that Brian has 2 yrs ago and sold it after 2 weeks. Tiny action buttons and palm rests made my fingers/palms cramp. Custom built a mixbox with WASD directions and 30mm action buttons. Took a while to get used to it but that's my preferred input method now. I used to struggle with inputting super quickly on the left side in stick. That's basically the only thing leverless improved for me.
With all the input shortcuts and input leniency in SF4/SFV there really isn't that much of a difference.
Wow im currently in the same boat. Have been using the 360 controller forever but now that im starting to feel uncomfortable with it for fighting games ive been looking into beginner sticks and even all button ones like the snackbox micro or something.
I think saying hitbox is not intuitive is BS when i first started playing on stick from pad it took me months to just be comfortable with doing simple things when i try to play on keyboard with asd and spacebar i find it pretty intuitive because i've played games on PC before and i'm used to this layout. Nothing is inherently intuitive it all depends on your past experiences and stickless layout isn't any harder than stick if you have played it as much as stick it has no drawbacks. However i don't think it should be banned the only thing i think that should be ban is anything other than SOCD neutral and i agree that devs should be the ones to put that in the game that way stickless layouts just have to send their raw inputs without any interpretation
I think if we ever wanted to ban hitbox you would also have to ban the use of socd tricks on pad. Pad players don't really do this anyway, so I think reasonably you could just lightly monitor this, but I also understand why people wouldn't want to make this rule.
"If this is not how the game is meant to be played then the developers will have to develop around this" there are bans stages, bans some costumes, just in this game. in other games, there are character bans, strategies bans, items bans... and etc etc etc. "let the developers decide..." so First to 1 in every tournament
about the speed just remember Streetfighter IV in 3ds, very fast to "execute"
And also the examples with the control pads are also very weak. You can do it, but is so hard that the comparison doesn't make a lot of sense. The argument doesn't change in a control pad or stick you cannot do the same that you can in a hitbox
Also explain that while are you learning you have to think very deeply before executing, that happens to everyone when are learning a new technic, at the begging is hard to execute a dragon punch, but at some point, you just do it.
This one is a kind of weak argument but, I guess U.S.A citizens can afford them, but so f*cking expensive. In the U.S.A there are tournaments with prize money that maybe make sense to buy one, in other countries costs millions plus the money to travel to U.S, hotel, food, and Visa.
You can build one same as an arcade stick
I’m ten seconds in and the fact that you’re playing Iwotodai Dorm in the background means I am morally obligated to stay 😂
Seems moving cleaning to gameside and requiring the diagonal inputs would fix all the issues.
That is, if we thing keeping sticks is worthwhile to the culture.
If not, screw it, but game design will have to accommodate that and sticks will become obsolete competitively and will be at a disadvantage vs button box casually.
The only reason I want to use a hitbox is because I've been playing pc games for years and never once used a arcade stick in my life for more then 10 mins at a time at an arcade. But that's considered cheating because I would rather use something I'm use to then learn something completely new at the age of 27. Fuck that
i know it's kinda irrelevant but it kinda reminds me about Rockets' James Harden and how he draws so many fouls and get free throws. he did that because he knew about the rules of the NBA and he find a way to kinda make it beneficial to his game (lets just say this is the rules for SOCD, and using leverless controller that is not against the rules)
Sure everyone called him "cheating" for all of those antics, but why didn't everybody also do what he does? because its not as easy as it looks to pull off what Harden did back then (transitioning from stick to leverless controller is not as easy as it looks)
But in the end, he still not win any championship because come playoff time refs start to let defender play more physical so Harden didn't get as many free throws as he did in regular season, and also other team also had better gameplan, better players on their roster, etc. (let's say how Harden get his free throws is the execution in fighting games, but execution alone won't get you far, sure having advantage on that is something, but in the end you still need footsies, mind games, etc to win against your opponent not just your execution)
And now NBA had changed the rules for this, and now Harden doesn't get that much free throws nowadays, does this mean the rules for SOCD also gonna change too in the future? who knows
sorry for bad english tho lmao
When SFV lets you double-tap down-forward to get a forward > down > down-forward input for DPs, you can't really claim that a controller is letting you "cheat your inputs".
Knuckledu had been doing those socd tricks on pad since sf4
Pondering his orb is such an apt way to describe the weirdness that is Alex Myers's controller
As Aris said, I am sure someone out there has Priority directions on their hitbox and is anyone policing them to check it? Im sure somoene's stick out there is Booming while blocking because they can hold two directions at once and no one out there policing and checking your hitbox if it can do it or not.
No. This is a boogeyman argument that is nigh impossible to actually achieve.
You do know you can do what your talking about pad???
Pad has no socd cleaning at all
If you use a elite pad and ps5 edge pad you can do any hitbox tech and have no socd cleaning
And also by that logic you can modify you stick to abuse socd
Well then you are going to have check sticks and pads too then. Modding controllers is not exclusive to leverless controllers.
I want to see an Aris vs Brian_F debate on the hitbox.
I’ve been playing fighting games for about a year now. I’ve played mostly hitbox but some stick and after a lot of thought I can’t come to the conclusion that hitbox is “cheating”. The way I see it is it’s always been able to be done, it’s not a grand invention that couldn’t have been done back then and we’re deciding whether to use old or new technology. We don’t race model T’s in nascar because “that’s the way we were intended to drive”. Who knows tho maybe I am just a noob and am not good enough to use a fight stick and I use hitbox as a crutch and I don’t play games the way they were intended to be played and to that I say. The future is now old man
Stickless controllers have been around for a long time and the sky has not fallen down. Anyone whining about them at this point needs to direct their complaints straight to scrubquotes and leave the rest of us alone. It's just fighting game conservatism; old man yelling at cloud shit.
Hey Brian, this might not help as it does feel awkward at first but for the cr.short, cr.jab hit grab combo start at down forward for the normals and then just roll to back and punch. That combo went from weirdly difficult to super easy once I got used to that.
Great video BTW! Nice to see someone approach this issue thoughtfully instead of coming at it with pure emotion and nostalgia.
You can't start at downforward is the point, you are maintaining charge in most situations and deciding last minute to do half circle back. If you know ahead of time you are going to do the half circle back ender you start from down forward and jts trivial, but that's not a realistic situation
OH ALSO BRIAN it' easier to utilize the left+ right = neutral to make the input easier on the hands. with half circle inputs, at least for me. It too a while for my brain to switch over tho
Yes. 2 inputs creating a "no input" state, is a macro.
No. It's literally the opposite of a macro.
The only thing I don't understand about this is how it becomes a hot topic every few months/years. This entire discussion has been fully played out for like many years.
Motion inputs were put in the game by the developers to balance moves. The fact that hitbox shortcuts let you circumvent this to an extent in ways that are both impossible on other input devices and not intended by the developers can be considered "cheating" (don't really like that word here because it's so emotionally charged, but you get the idea). Just because hitbox still requires practice/execuction and doesn't give you free wins doesn't mean this isn't a legitimate concern. I absolutely agree though that it's up do the devs to implement solution within the game rather than banning hitbox (it's actually what I use personally). The most logical solution like Brian mentioned would be to allow the game to handle SOCD in a way that doesn't allow for L+R=N shortcuts. Additionally, they could also tighten up input strictness for SF6 to be more in line with previous games since a lot of the hitbox shortcuts relay high input leniency to work. This would make a lot of sense considering SF6 is already going to have a modern control scheme for those who don't want to deal with motions. Moving forward, devs really need to be taking hitbox in consideration when balancing their games, because we're only going to see their adoption increase.
Except this isn't true. Because EVERYTHING(literally every single thing) that can be done on Hitbox can also be done on pad. So if pad is legal, Hitbox HAS to be legal by this logic. This argument only applies in the direct Hitbox/Stick comparison, but that's not the reality.
@@NessOnett8 Pad doesn't give you a neutral position when you input left and right at the same time.
@@dooberknob3947 It depends on whether the pad has socd cleaning or not. As far as I know, most of them don't, so it's up to the game you're playing to decide.
And either solution is equally strong. Some games default left + right to a neutral input (which most donkeys are complaining about), some default it to the last input. And you people don't even realize how good that would be either
I think the SOCD problem came around MVC3, it doesn't have a software level solution so you can actually block mixups, but still it would just mean no hitbox FOR MVC3, not every game
i love you man but way you dont show us this when do you buy the hitbox? after all video on internet to late to show us
Hitbox was just more natural for me coming from PC gaming. Played on ps4 pad for a long time but was hurting my thumb, tried a stick and I was just not getting the handle of it
I've been playing KOF13 casually on my keyboard where I bound jump to spacebar, and one of the hardest trials was lp>lk>3hp>double hcb - those first 3 attacks have the startup of a jab. A lot of the other trials are about memorization, figuring out which specials are drive cancelled, and learning link timings, but this trial is just, can you put your normals in the hcbs and still finish with the super? Perhaps I'm just not used to doing clean half circles with normals inside, but this is one of the few trials where I thought, "I wish I had a stick to try and see if that makes this trial easier"
Do you think hitbox is the best controller for execution even when considering half circles and full circles ?
Can you option select block a ambiguous cross up by plinking left and right at the same time?
No not if the left or right option hits on the same frame. What you described is "fuzzy guarding" which people already do on pad/stick. The only difference is you could theoretically be more effective at Fuzzy guarding setups that have a tighter window than what is feasible on stick
@@Brian_F "theoretically" so dishonest you KNOW it's a fact not theory c'mon.
What?
I'm gonna be with Aris on this one Brian. I genuinely think that the simple fact you can press two directional inputs at once is grounds to ban button box controllers alone. Sure Simultaneous directions is possible with pad but it's so impractical people just aren't gonna do that. If the ability to do simultaneous directional inputs alone gave you an advantage then pad players would be doing it already.
Annnnnd they do.
@@Brian_F wow for real?! doesn't seem worth the effort to me but damn fair enough then. I do agree with your agreement about dealing with it on a software level though.
For certain things yes its done, posted an example on twitter. Obviously hitbox let's you do more socd exploits but pad players definitely use both dpad and analog stick combines for certain situational stuff
This is a strange take. Stick is a set of motions that your body straightup doesnt do normally. I was better on hitbox than gamepad within 2 days. I practiced stick for 2 weeks and got nowhere. Hitbox is like a keyboard so its pretty intuitive from playing pc games.
Dragon, an NRS player used to literally go into the accessibility settings and rearrange the button mapping of his controller to make his inputs easier. There was never a rule preventing this
I'm a simple guy, I use hitbox on 2d fighters and traditional joystick on 3d. I tried playing tekken on hitbox and it's kinda weird since when I'm on 1P side and I needed to sidestep left, I should press a button that is nearer to my body (in 1p side terms, to the character's right) and I can't wrap my head around that thought.
the only people i see asking for a ban are people who dont play sfv competitively - old school arcade players on twitter that dont even play sfv anyway, randoms that watch the game instead of play, etc. I haven't seen an actual competitive sfv player have the opinion to ban them.
I don’t think the hitbox itself is cheating just some techniques that are done with it should be looked at
Alright I'm convinced I main Laptop Keyboard now. I'll need some sorta converter for tournaments....
Yeah, the time commitment makes the most sense to me. I bought an arcade stick, but realized the time investment to get better with it wasn’t worth it. I’ve stuck to pad ever since.
Just make inputs drop completely if the game detects SOCD. QED. If it's equally as trivial on both pad and hitbox, then both should be equally impacted, right?
That's the same thing as neutral
Used a controller for most of my time playing FG. I picked up a mini mixbox and haven't gone back, though I'm not the best at it, I can still feel the advantage in terms of cleaner inputs and being able to perform special moves with a few key presses is great.
I consistently play against my BF who uses Keyboard to play, and I find that HC/FC/QC/DP inputs are not any easier or harder if that's what you put the time in to learn... It's wild that people care this much. Why aren't we complaining about macros allowed ingame, ie IAD, ABC etc inputs. The simplest solution is stop requiring hardware to scrub multi-inputs and let games deal with how it registers.
Ok Alex meyers stick is sick low key
Imo, mot agruements shouldn't be for SOCD, just about how the game reads inputs. Other games can let you have "left + right = neutral," but wont let you get away not inputing diagonals for supers. And also you can't *not* have SOCD, because people can walk and block again.
If you want to only force controllers people have access to by default of the platform, then that keyboard on your desk is perfectly valid if the game released on pc.
Imo, games should socd left and right to neutral. MBAA Socds to forward, which makes it so you miss your down input for half circles. Mad unfun.
Since SF5 doesn't SOCD clean keyboards, are there any keyboard only option selects, for instance, to get forward without guessing where the opponent is? Maybe some cheap walk-unders? Charge moves?
You can do a 360 shortcut by holding down back and pianoing up and forward iirc
Do people not realize that people play fighting games on keyboard? A hitbox is basically a keyboard layout
Funnily enough, half-circles are actually *really* easy on Hit Box for SFV.
Think of it as Forward into Quarter Circle Back.
Or you can just slide your fingers across the buttons, lol.
That's not the problem. Oro is a charge character, so I'm holding down back then last second deciding to do half circle back during a jab link sequence.
Half circle back = ex
Half circle back last second from down back in the time from of a jab link = really hard
@@Brian_F half circle in which direction?
i think the most logical ruling would be for each game to be playable only on whatever specific input device the game devs have balanced it around. this would obviously suck ass as a rule though, since it's way too restrictive. plus it would be very difficult to enforce in non-local play.
If you want a hitbox, don't waste $250 on one, you can make one for less than $100. I bought the buttons for £35 and the PCB (which came with all wires) for £10, and just used some ply I had already (although wouldn't be expensive). I've even made it customised to fit my hand better. I grew up on PC (Amiga originally), so WASD is just intuitive to me. I want buttons, not analogue, not DPAD and not stick. I disagree with being able to input supers this way, but also, that's on the devs like Brian says. It's how they read the input at the end of the day.
I guess for me looking at it, fighting games were always designed around a stick for movement and buttons for actions. By developing for a lever less controller you are actively segregating the traditional method of playing and if SOCD is going to be allowed to be the new standard then that means that an arcade stick is actively being put at a disadvantage by the devs.
I get that its not cheating as its just a new method of playing a game. But you cant allow them if they give a genuine advantage. Pad and stick both have a stick and buttons, even though they can use the SOCD tricks it is not the same as the hitbox. Execution may be difficult in some aspects but in high level play execution is not as big an issue from what I have seen. The playimg field is more level with them out of the picture.
I am by no means a master of any fighting games. that is just how I see it from the outside looking in.
I guess my logic is that controllers have to be regulated. Some of the regulation should be based off tradition. I know everyone wont agree with that reason but its a start. I think about sports like golf and baseball. They all are traditionally played a specific way. There are very specific things you can not use. Corked bats, hockey sticks for clubs are some things that come to mind. Most of the reason that the rule is in place is because of tradition. Just my 2 cents it mean nothing but I don't mind my stance.
I started on a keybord and Xbox controller (all I had) then eventually I switched to stick and got a lot better since it was just a better controller for me. Then I went to hitbox and started accelerating very fast so I personally think it’s easier. Of course I had keyboard exp. And I was also a pretty good Tetris player so I think my finger coordination is good.
How did you hotkey restart?
If hitbox handles socd the way it does to make itself legal, then the second position of "speed of inputs" also calls into question the legality of arcade sticks. Because you can do what hitbox does on stick, it's just very hard because of the throw and actuation distance. That would then mean banning sticks with short throws and actuation distances like Seimitsu sticks.
Do tournaments now also have to ban specific levers, and TOs have to open up sticks to verify their legality before matches?
It's not a macro but you are right when you say the game should handle SOCD cleaning. By doing it in hardware we take that possibility away. In software SOCD cleaning can be done in way more nuanced ways. It is possible to have different cleaning method for each character or even each stance when we do it in the game.
I agree with your opinion that all the SOCD logic should be handled by the game itself. It just makes sense for the developers to choose how it should work rather then the community having to come to a consensus. Also, wouldn't a easy fix for pad be to make it so that the game only allows you to use the stick or the dpad not both at the same time? Seems like it would solve the SOCD issues with the pad specifically. But I guess there is nothing preventing people from binding multiple buttons to the same direction still..
Can you make a video about charge moves? I still have a hard time hitting them
noob question: how much of a difference is there between the legendary HITBOX and an ordinary pc keyboard?
hitbox has socd cleaning, keyboard doesn't
In general hitbox would be more ergonomic, you don't have to worry about extra buttons you can press, while keyboard is more customizable with rebinds. Mechanically buttons might be similar or very different to hitbox, depends on what kind of switch you have. The biggest difference relevant to video is keyboards usually don't have SOCD, so when I press back and forward at the same time I get forward. Which is benificial in one specific case where you can always hold back, press forward, and do back to forward charge move and start instantly charging for the next one. You do miss out on all SOCD shortcuts of hitbox, and aside from mentioned instant charge you can do everything keyboard can on a hitbox.
Not much, I used my keyboard for the longest time and the biggest difference is that the buttons are bigger which is nice and the location of jump is good on the hitbox (but you can always bind the keyboard buttons to make it like hitbox)
@@Uluyo so, on a keyboard if u press back and forward, the game will default to forward? I don't play sfv, so i cant test it
@@wnihaunter3943 yes
Anyone else imagine akuma petting Brian's head at 11:20?
Personally my main takeaway from all of this hitbox discussion is wow the smashbox is fucking stupid actually
HITBOXES must be BANNED from competitive scene ! because they remove the hand/brain/react skill. It will destroy the fun and make non talented pro players to enter the FGC
???
You still have to execute the same inputs.
the inputs are the exact same and your reaction time is not improved. this isnt going to cause some silver ryu player to win a tournament.
@Brian_F Oro combo you show in this video can be optimised to become easier i believe. You don't need to input full halfcircle in sfv. If you input second jab as d+f+Lp it becomes easier. Try d+b+LK, d+f+LP, d, d+b, b+HP
Yes but in a real match I'll be holding downback for charge and blocking so that's the context from where I'd have to switch my input from
For me i think the only difficult part of hitbox is using your thumb for jump constantly, i think im pretty use to playing fighting games with buttons to move because i use my keyboard to play them every time, but adding that that i have to jump with thumb would take some time to get use to.
Oh this is not what this video is about, alright. Didnt know people hated hitbox that much.
Buff Zangeif, that’ll solve the hit box “problem”
I never shoryu'd consistently until I played Melty on PC keyboard
It was 1 million times more intuitive and fun (for me)