Regarding the "Noble Stark" that everyone talks about and how much honor they have: I totally agree that a lot of people associate the honor of Ned and the children he raised with house Stark traits when really that's just Ned, coming from being raised by Jon Arryn: honor is a core trait of the Arryn house. While the Starks are definitely honorable to an extent and have been good rulers of the North, they are more often known as strong, fierce, and just "worthy of loyalty" historically than purely honorable.
"Promise me Ned. He is the Prince that was Promised. He has to fight the Others. He has to join the Watch." Ned back at Winterfell. Um...Benjen...I made a promise to Lyanna and you are going to have to join the Watch.
Everybody talks about how Ned broke tradition by burying his brother in the crips of Winterfell. If his older brother died AFTER their father burned to death. That would have made Brandon the Lord of Winterfell, even if it was only for a couple of minutes. As for Lyanna, she helped jumpstart a rebellion that changed the history of the realm permanently. Id say that would make her notable enough to be placed down there where she and her story might not be so easily forgotten.
I'm only half way through but I'm already happy you brought Grey Waste on this stream.. Great insight between the 2 of you. Cheers comrades. (I feel like a broken record haha cause every comment is just a thank you but got to keep those algorithm gods happy)
The first topic is parallels, and north/south super important, north of the ice wall, south of the red mountains. Soooooo Craster has no sons. Oberyn has no sons. WHAT HAS OBERYN DONE WITH HIS BOYS!?
FINALLY someone acknowledges Vermax's eggs!! 😂 The HOTD show seems to be comfortable showing us the "truth" of what happened. If they show Vermax laying eggs, then this whole series may have been for that moment, just to set up Jon or whomever finding the eggs in WoW without it feeling cheap!
This live makes me think about some points. Already about the crypt of Winterfell, during one of Theon's chapters, he explains that the crypt is so vast and deep that even he who grew up in this castle, does not know how far it goes down. He says that the oldest parts of the crypt are the deepest and that most of these parts are inaccessible because of landslides or because the steps are too worn. No one has set foot in the deepest part of the crypts for potentially 1000 years and who knows what may still be there. Another point that could be related to the first one, concerns Ice, the ancestral sword of the Starks. We know that the name of this Valyrian sword goes back to an even older sword from the time of the heroes. This famous ancestral sword Ice, we don't know what happened to it, but it could potentially still rest deep in the crypts of Winterfell, in the lap of the Last Hero's tomb, which would be the beginning of this tradition of equipping the tombs with swords. Later the Starks would obtain a Valyrian sword and name it as a tribute and reminder of their heritage. The last point that bothers me is about fAgeon. Whether he is a Targaryen or Blackfyre, in the end what does it change? In either case he has dragon blood in him, the only difference would be the name of his house but the Blackfyre's are Targaryen under another name so I don't see how this is a problem except maybe for the succession of the throne but for the rest, that Aegon is a Targaryen or a Blackfyre has no incidence or am I missing an important point? Thanks to those who take the time to read and answer.
Maybe Joramun’s horn did bring down the wall, just not the current wall. The wall at most Cailin. They are the watchers on the wallS after all. If there was ice on moat Cailin that melted, it might turn into a marsh
About the idea that once a character dies they don’t get a PoV chapter again, you could argue that Varamyr Sixskins gets a PoV before, during and after his body dies. So, maybe it’s just skinchangers who get PoVs after death and resurrection…
Would be funny if Rhaeger was going to lead the forces against the others. With him being killed it makes the story become the story about what happens if you kill the hero/messiah to save all. 😂
This is just a thought inspired by something you said here, but could Craster and his daughters be a hint that Night’s King/Night’s Queen was an incestuous relationship? While neither Craster nor Gilly seems to be magical, you could definitely describe what’s going on there as an “unholy union.” Also, the Targaryen marriage practices hint that incest is necessary to maintain Valyrian-style blood magic. Could the relationship between Nissa Nissa and Night’s Queen be a mother-daughter relationship? Azor Ahai marrying his own daughter to fix some sort of magical trait in his bloodline? Perhaps the “Which one was a Stark?” question is moot because they both were? Just another possibility to toss onto the pile! Edit: Great Empire of the Dawn heritage could also explain her Valyrian-like description, with very pale skin and gemstone-like eyes. Also, the detail about him having to chase and catch her seems to imply she was not a willing participant. If this really were a case of incestuous rape, that would give an entirely different context to the "he saw her from atop the wall" (ie, of his own fort or castle, assuming this really was in pre-Wall times) and chased and caught and "loved" her story.
Started watching you with the HOTD reviews and discovered all of these in depth analysis of the books. Love the theories and symbolism discussions and chats. A lot of work .. great job!
What if The Horn of Winter, when blown with or without sound, doesn’t need to cause the physical Wall to fall, but only needs to break the magical barrier?
I absolutly love the comment about Lyanna not having a sword makes her welcomeing Jon. It is weird in generell, the kids feel pretty comfortable down there, Jon included, they play there, despite it being a place of death and darkness and that makes me think, that despite how awesome it would be to have the nightqueen down there or something else terrible, there probably is not anything bad there. I think we will not get a dream realation and then Jon going down, that would eat to much time and space. I think his repeated not getting an answer dreams will prompt him to go down there at the first possible moment and he will discover whatever in the wakeing world. But thats just me and it very much could go down very differently and I dare not say which one would be better. I think the thing that scares him down there is not hostility or some threat, it is knowing who he is and all the danger and problems that intrails. He does not belong, to the feast because in contrast to Ned and Robb he aint dead, and with him going up north into exile in the show, I imagine he will never be burried in the crypts. So he would not belong, even if no one is hostile towords him, it just is not his place.
Grey Waste Tim really killed it for his first stream! Great job delivering your ideas without a stutter Tim; and another great stream LML. Nimble Dick should think about giving machete lessons. Gotta know right where to strike when those gatdamn squisher degenerates come lurkin.
I've never really understood why people think that Ned would hide something for Jon in Lyanna's tomb. If Ned had evidence of Jon's heritage that Lyanna made him promise to keep and show to Jon someday; why would he put it in her tomb? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep that kind of thing in a location that wouldn't necessitate disturbing his sister's resting place to access? Why not bury it in the godswood, or let Howland Reed look after it? I could see Lyanna asking Ned to bury her with something that she was sentimentally attached to; so Rhaegar's harp makes sense. However I don't think the harp is a particularly good symbol of legitimacy. Sure Rhaegar was known for his harp playing, and had a distinctive instrument, but how many people would really be able to tell Rhaegar's harp apart from a fake? Barristan probably could, but I doubt many others would be able to tell. Personally I don't think the contents of Lyanna's tomb are that significant. I think that Jon will finish his dream, and that combined with info from someone like Bran will be enough. I think you're right when you said that the crypts are first and foremost an emotional destination for Jon. I don't think they need to contain a macguffin to be important to the story.
Nobody said they need to it was discussion about if they did? Robert would never disturb her grave and Ned would likely prevent any so it wouldn’t be an easy place to access. I mean Robert complained about her being buried in the crypt so Ned saying she is family grave cover it but that also can mean he deliberately made sure anything she might have had or evidence you could get from her body was blocked . The whole point of this is a discussion not saying definitively. Hell her body may not even be buried in the crypts and placed elsewhere
@@Henbot I know that nobody said that there definitely was stuff hidden in the tomb. I said that I don't understand why people think that Ned would hide something in there. Clearly a lot of people think that there might be something hidden in there but I don't see it. My point was that Ned could hide stuff in lots of places. Why would he put it in Lyanna's tomb? Why put stuff in a place that would necessitate disturbing his sister's resting place, when there are lots of other good hiding places.
Everyone else: Man what a great stream! The theories were flying! Me: TIM CAN WE SEE YOUR CATS MORE?!?! Purrty please? 😺 Seriously guys, this was a great stream; it's legitimately fun to watch people discuss topics they're so passionate about!
I’m sorry about my previous comment. I deleted it. I was just annoyed in that moment, but otherwise, you’re a great RUclipsr and a pillar for those of us writhing in the wait for Winds. Keep doing what you do, David. Much respect.
Bloodraven doesn't have a history of grabbing overt power for himself. He has always had plenty of interior power, and seems pretty satisfied with playing puppet master, rather than becoming one of the puppets. So I don't think he's going to steal Bran's body, because why? He seems all the more powerful for inhabiting the weirwoods than a human body
Just had a thought at 1:50:45. Bran plugs into the weirwood way beyond the wall in BR's cave. David talks about the Astral plane and its possible this is how the connection is made. But I want to posit that taking into account the theory in this video that the underground cave system may run from the Frost Fangs to Dorne, as Tim says, in conjunction with the the theory that it's the roots that may be creating the caves, then it seems that Bran could also be accessing the Winterfell weirwood via a connected root system that runs under the Wall, under the whole span of Westeros. This is different from accessing one weirwood and getting full access to all the weirwoods knowledge as Lml explains it, but I think connecting via the underground route system could be cool physical representation of a fully connected magical network of greenseers in the trees. Like how all the trees in a forest are connected via the roots, and how a forest could be seen as one living organism. Ramp that up to 1000fantasy%, and you have the old gods, a living god organism that spans the entirety of Westeros. This would be super cool because I always wondered how Bran would be able to see into the past beyond Winterfell's godswood. I had thought he could only do this because of his connection to/longing for home due to the fact that he only sees from that weirwood's eyes. Using the theories all together, we can theorize that Bran will, as he grows more powerful and adept, travel further down the root system and see into the past at the God's eye weirwood grove, at the isle in Oldtown, and at the Harrenhal godswood where Lyanna and Rhaegar may have met (Arya hides in the godswood in Harrenhal to practice needlework and this is where Lyanna may have hidden, since the two are always compared to one another. Rhaegar being a mystical emo may have sought the quiet of the godswood to play his harp so this could be where they met). I like this theory for how we could end up seeing all these key events through Bran's eyes.
I can see Dany dying in a heroic self sacrefice very well, though I think it will be prompted by some sort of snapping moment before. Her trying to take kingslanding and acidently setting of the wildfire would make a lot of sense for several reasons and it woud be the conflict of her feeling helpless and guilty over that and rightious fury that would make her snap. Dany is way to compassionate for the route of a conqourer, it is not possible to accomodate those two extreams without devestaiting mental strain that will at one point will break her. I need a moment of realisation for her in that regard, I think her story needs it to be belivable. All mother mercy and conquring with fire and blood are just to opposing of eachother to work out. Seeing Kingslanding go up in flame, her fire compleatly getting out of controll, and the people,children she wanted to protect burning infron of her would do the trick to make her break out of the delussion, that she could be both.
I feel the Red, Green, Blue magic are filters. Rather than combining all 3 magic and resulting in white light, it seems more like fire magic takes all green and blue light away, Ice the red and green... So, if all 3 magic come together, is that where the night comes from? And do they then lose some of their abilities? “Shadows cannot live in the dark, Ser Davos. They are the servants of Light.
about the black Lightbringer sword: Ned's Ice is the first and the most important black sword we get introduced to, and then it gets split in half. so maybe the original Lightbringer sword got split as well and right now it has a new life in other swords - which would line up with what we expect, the Others will be fought with the white sword and then a bunch of "lesser" black swords.
I agree that RLJ has the most evidence to it but I think it’s pretty funny that people point at Lyanna thinking Robert won’t stick to one bed as evidence she fell for Rhaegar(the already married dude). Even if he divorced Elia and a relationship with him is kosher…. He’s not sticking to one bed.
Yay, looking forward to this. That first crypts stream was I think the second time I'd heard of you but it was the video that made me subscribe I'm pretty sure. I literally remember where I was listening to it!
Fantastic stream, really enjoyed how well you played off each other. One tin foil I’ve been kicking around that you reminded me of is did Mel actually burn the “horn of winter” or was it another of her illusions. The description of it shimmering green in the fire makes it sound like it either had magic or maybe magic was used to make us think she burned it (similar to rattle bones/nance) She seems to keep a hoard of magical items and is able to sense power. If this is similar or opposite to dragon binder’s power I would think she would want it for herself or maybe I got it backwards and destroyed it since it was a threat to her or her cause.
I was so firmly against the idea, I would have debated on behalf of SQUISHERS being down in the crypts before dragon eggs …but I’m a good 85% convinced now 😳 there is some really interesting, poetic symmetry there that GRRM could be capitalizing on & side note, Graywaste Tim was great! Super insightful and brought up a lot of fresh points. Hope he comes back, and that you keep streaming with more guests too!
13:55 I read that the trident is how the god copulates the earth mother. It's three phalli for the Triple Goddess. She's made fertile by the rain/lightning that comes down from above into the soil, even
Great stream. I definitely think Jon's name is Aemon. I believe we have two separate instances where Jon actually refers to himself as Aemon. It would also make sense considering his relationship with Maester Aemon. Also as far as Dunk and Egg goes, I think that it is possible that a majority of the next story that takes place in Winterfell is completed. I remember reading somewhere that the "She Wolves" was supposed to be the story published in "Dangerous Women" and not "The Princess and the Queen". I always wondered if She Wolves was shelved because it might give us too much information before TWOW was released. Maybe GRRM was afraid it would foreshadow too much or simply spoil a major plot point in the main series.
2:25:20 What Grey Waste Tim is reading (I think he said about the Scarlet Woman? From a different author...) There was something about it, how it's worded or just the vibe from it that instantly a particular prayer from Catholicism popped into my head. One of the prayers to the Virgin Mary, that few these days know... I believe it's called Hail Holy Queen. (I included what I remember of it below.) I bring this up because you guys will reference different historical & mythical characters that have symbolic connection to George's characters... And perhaps Mary also fits into one of your archetypes. I could be wrong with how my brain interpreted what Grey Waste Tim was reading as connecting to the prayer. The connection for me was... Mary supposed to be there for all God's children, as in adult and child a like, just as a mother is there for all of her own children with unconditional love and understanding regardless of their place in the word, behavior, or how the rest of the world views them. As well as those hurt, repressed, in pain. Those society over looks or condemns. And while she's supposed to represent someone pure and without sin - there were people that believed she was a "harlot" or spread rumors about her. Which is similar to how some of the women characters in George's books are talked about by other characters. Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, our hope. To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, To you do we send up our sighs, mourning, weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Oh clement, Oh loving, Oh sweet Virgin Mary, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Re: there only being a few bad or mad Targs, I think GRRM isn't just showing us that every family has a few of them, but this is also the flaw in inherited power. Because yes, every family has a few nutjobs, but when those nutjobs inherit absolute power, that's where the problems lies. Actually, it reminds me of a Jane Austen quote from Pride & Prejudice. I can't find it right now, but the idea is this, 'All of us like having our own way and do as often as we can, only Darcy has more power to have his own way than most other people do.' It's a lucky thing when the person who inherits power and wealth is relatively benevolent or even harmless, but Aerys is a great example of when that isn't the case. And so the Targs might not have more crazy people in the family than most, but they almost always have more power.
For “promise me”, one might like to look at Stannis and his daughter (or greek myth mothers). Probably Lyanna wanted Ned to put Aegon(Jaqen, Jon’s elder brother, the middle child) on the throne and kill Robert. That being said, I still think “Promise me…Ned” is specifically naming Ned Dayne”Ned” for keeping Arthur’s oathbreaking a secret, and keeping letting the Kingsguard take Val to the wall, Daenerys to Tyrosh, the Daynes sisters Rhaenys and baby Ned back to Starfall. The Idea Lyanna would bother asking any Stark male (modern) to protect a baby, much less her’s is ridiculous. Ned blew up the seven kingdoms to protect bastard LANNISTERS, Jon wildling baby at the wall, defying King Stannis.
Do you think that there was a move to try to keep information from being downloaded into the weirwood net? Like did R+L go somewhere that they wouldn’t be picked up by Bloodraven/weirwoods? And if bones remember, could that be why it’s so important that Neds bones made it to winterfell? To download what he knows into the stark crypts/stones?
Seriously awesome stream. One of my favorites! Also a bit of an ego boost because I came up with many (though of course not all) of the same ponderings and predictions about the crypts just from foreshadowing found in Book 1 when I first read it a couple years ago. I am reading Storm of Swords currently and have just finished that Jon chapter where he's traveling along the Milkwater with the wildlings, right before they get to the Fist. I've found many of the same bits you reference to support claims about the horn plus a few more I haven't heard you mention yet (but I'm sure you have somewhere; there are still many of your videos I am yet to watch!)
Yeah you know if you’re familiar with a lot of classical fantasy or classical mythology, you can spot some of what Martin is doing a lot faster than you would otherwise. I didn’t know as much of that seven years ago when I first read the books, but now when I watch or read something new I can spot those things pretty quickly. What specifically do you think will happen with the crypts? I can see so many ideas I don’t know if I have a favorite
@@DavidLightbringer I also see so many possibilities it's hard to narrow it down to a favorite or most probable course. I feel strongly (or maybe I just really WANT to see it) that one of the horns, be that dragonbinder or Joramund's horn once repaired, will "wake the giants" beneath Winterfell. Regardless of who they fight and on whose side (if it is a matter of "sides" at that point in the story), I expect the ghosts of ancient members of House Stark to walk the halls of Winterfell. Winterfell is surely named for the place where winter fell in the past, and so why not have it be the place where winter rises again? Then after hearing you talk about Jon being the child owed to the Others, I got to thinking Winterfell will be where the "otherized" part of Jon is "killed" (by Arya, would be my best guess) and his true resurrected, fire magic powered self is re-born.
Always enjoy hearing your insights, Lightbringer! Thank you for having GW Tim on, as he was incredibly insightful as well. Tim, I’m so glad you pointed out that Mance was searching along the Milkwater for the horn. That’s even more evidence that Mance is Arthur Dayne as who else carried a blade as white as Milkglass. Mance/Arthur would also already know the truth about Jon and have even more reason to search in the Crypts, and look in Lyana’s tomb.
Very cool episode, M'lord- I like the dynamic when you have a guest : ) Currently catching up on some vids As always, keep up the good work educating our butts :D
For Jon's chapter I'd love to have the opposite. To have some pov chapters of him while he is dead. Not even wighted yet but just still lying in the snow... I would love to even have Jon as one of the first chapters of the book. But I know it's wishful thinking...
If the Night's Queen is a Stark, could the 13th Lord Commander have been a dragon lord? A dragon lord as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch could fit with the Targaryen tradition of resisting the Others, or feeling destined to do battle with them
I tend to think there are male and female singers, as it’s left ambiguous, but there are in fact only male Others aside from Corpse Queen of legend. Check out my Weir Walkers video for my attempt to answer the question of a White Walker origin with the Weirwoods
My favorit flood myth is from the aztecs where the watergoddes that was takeing the place of the sun was acused of being a poser and so she cried blood for years and years and drownd the whole earth and creation in her tears . . . the aztecs have in generell the funniest world ending stories. My favorit was the jaguar rain ^^
I don't see how Blood Raven could really benefit from stealing Bran's body. He's paraplegic child and Blood Raven is already a powerful greenseer. I guess it might extend his life but there seems to be more evidence in the text to suggest that an enthroned greenseer is immortal than that they rely on body swaps to persist in the physical world.
How likely it is that instead of compromise with thee Others (like humans leaving the weirwood net), but they are crushed with Jon and Dany dieing in the process and Bran becaming a Leto II style god-emperor
The Others not liking iron makes me think of how iron is the reason human blood is red. And, of course, the Others have "pale blue blood." For a long time, I've felt that the ice magic of ASOIAF is antithetical to life - it does preserve, but it also prevents change, which is necessary to life and reproduction. Whereas red magic or fire magic consumes, as life does. I think green magic is a sort of balance between the two. It does make me think of the five stages of wuxia: wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. Each leads to the next, each is spurred by one, each is complemented by another, and each destroys one, holding all in balance. Plus, of the primary colors of light or the colors of the rainbow, green lies between red and blue. So I agree with you that magic/mana/astral energy all seems to have the same source in ASOIAF, as magic users can approach the stream from different elemental gateways. And I think that mana supports the various elements or stages without bias, but the elements express the energy in different ways.
While Rhaegar played a harp, could the appearance of the harp you two shared actually be describing a sword?! I like how George talks about swordfighting as a dance, so maybe 🤷🏼♂️
" . . .could not quite thread the needle . . . " he says while I am just threading the needle for handsweing 18th century pockets . . . I feel called out ^^
Read the runes, Melisandre was charging the horn not destroying it. Three horns form like Voltron, two spirals (double helix) and a reed cap like a clarinet.
"A peaceful channel, a quiet chat. That has always been my rule."
Goose coming in like a wrecking ball with the shrieks
"chennel"
Regarding the "Noble Stark" that everyone talks about and how much honor they have: I totally agree that a lot of people associate the honor of Ned and the children he raised with house Stark traits when really that's just Ned, coming from being raised by Jon Arryn: honor is a core trait of the Arryn house. While the Starks are definitely honorable to an extent and have been good rulers of the North, they are more often known as strong, fierce, and just "worthy of loyalty" historically than purely honorable.
"Promise me Ned. He is the Prince that was Promised. He has to fight the Others. He has to join the Watch."
Ned back at Winterfell. Um...Benjen...I made a promise to Lyanna and you are going to have to join the Watch.
Everybody talks about how Ned broke tradition by burying his brother in the crips of Winterfell. If his older brother died AFTER their father burned to death. That would have made Brandon the Lord of Winterfell, even if it was only for a couple of minutes.
As for Lyanna, she helped jumpstart a rebellion that changed the history of the realm permanently. Id say that would make her notable enough to be placed
down there where she and her story might not be so easily forgotten.
I'm only half way through but I'm already happy you brought Grey Waste on this stream.. Great insight between the 2 of you. Cheers comrades.
(I feel like a broken record haha cause every comment is just a thank you but got to keep those algorithm gods happy)
No no that’s perfect, every comment helps and honestly I always need the reminder that people appreciate my effort, it keeps me motivated. Thank you
The first topic is parallels, and north/south super important, north of the ice wall, south of the red mountains. Soooooo Craster has no sons. Oberyn has no sons. WHAT HAS OBERYN DONE WITH HIS BOYS!?
The Vulture King takes them all
FINALLY someone acknowledges Vermax's eggs!! 😂 The HOTD show seems to be comfortable showing us the "truth" of what happened. If they show Vermax laying eggs, then this whole series may have been for that moment, just to set up Jon or whomever finding the eggs in WoW without it feeling cheap!
This live makes me think about some points.
Already about the crypt of Winterfell, during one of Theon's chapters, he explains that the crypt is so vast and deep that even he who grew up in this castle, does not know how far it goes down. He says that the oldest parts of the crypt are the deepest and that most of these parts are inaccessible because of landslides or because the steps are too worn. No one has set foot in the deepest part of the crypts for potentially 1000 years and who knows what may still be there.
Another point that could be related to the first one, concerns Ice, the ancestral sword of the Starks. We know that the name of this Valyrian sword goes back to an even older sword from the time of the heroes. This famous ancestral sword Ice, we don't know what happened to it, but it could potentially still rest deep in the crypts of Winterfell, in the lap of the Last Hero's tomb, which would be the beginning of this tradition of equipping the tombs with swords. Later the Starks would obtain a Valyrian sword and name it as a tribute and reminder of their heritage.
The last point that bothers me is about fAgeon. Whether he is a Targaryen or Blackfyre, in the end what does it change? In either case he has dragon blood in him, the only difference would be the name of his house but the Blackfyre's are Targaryen under another name so I don't see how this is a problem except maybe for the succession of the throne but for the rest, that Aegon is a Targaryen or a Blackfyre has no incidence or am I missing an important point?
Thanks to those who take the time to read and answer.
Oooooou gonna be listening to this during my whole shift today
Maybe Joramun’s horn did bring down the wall, just not the current wall. The wall at most Cailin. They are the watchers on the wallS after all. If there was ice on moat Cailin that melted, it might turn into a marsh
I’ve just heard this idea recently and I like it a lot
About the idea that once a character dies they don’t get a PoV chapter again, you could argue that Varamyr Sixskins gets a PoV before, during and after his body dies. So, maybe it’s just skinchangers who get PoVs after death and resurrection…
I love the idea of the missing piece of the horn being in the crypts
The North: "His name was struck from the histories."
Also the North: "The North remembers."
😒😒😒
Grey Waste Tim, you were fantastic. David, please have him as a guest again.
Would be funny if Rhaeger was going to lead the forces against the others. With him being killed it makes the story become the story about what happens if you kill the hero/messiah to save all. 😂
Yes and that’s why I call Rhaegar dead Prince Charming and see his death as the initial plot twist that framed the story
This is just a thought inspired by something you said here, but could Craster and his daughters be a hint that Night’s King/Night’s Queen was an incestuous relationship? While neither Craster nor Gilly seems to be magical, you could definitely describe what’s going on there as an “unholy union.” Also, the Targaryen marriage practices hint that incest is necessary to maintain Valyrian-style blood magic. Could the relationship between Nissa Nissa and Night’s Queen be a mother-daughter relationship? Azor Ahai marrying his own daughter to fix some sort of magical trait in his bloodline? Perhaps the “Which one was a Stark?” question is moot because they both were? Just another possibility to toss onto the pile!
Edit: Great Empire of the Dawn heritage could also explain her Valyrian-like description, with very pale skin and gemstone-like eyes. Also, the detail about him having to chase and catch her seems to imply she was not a willing participant. If this really were a case of incestuous rape, that would give an entirely different context to the "he saw her from atop the wall" (ie, of his own fort or castle, assuming this really was in pre-Wall times) and chased and caught and "loved" her story.
The answer is “YES”
Started watching you with the HOTD reviews and discovered all of these in depth analysis of the books. Love the theories and symbolism discussions and chats. A lot of work .. great job!
This is one of my favourite streams ever, it's my THIRD TIME listening to this in full
1:37:15 How do you get a silent horn to sound? Use Howl'n' Reeds, of course.
Jesus....I never made the connection between "Howland" Reed's name and the Starks. Literally the "Land of Howls"
@@kevj4584 🤯
This really is an outstanding cast; so dense with info but with such a good flow it really flies by. Wild that this is Tim's first; absolute natural.
This stream was so VERY dense with ideas and information, I have to watch it again. Awesome! And Tim was a great discussion partner.
What if The Horn of Winter, when blown with or without sound, doesn’t need to cause the physical Wall to fall, but only needs to break the magical barrier?
I absolutly love the comment about Lyanna not having a sword makes her welcomeing Jon.
It is weird in generell, the kids feel pretty comfortable down there, Jon included, they play there, despite it being a place of death and darkness and that makes me think, that despite how awesome it would be to have the nightqueen down there or something else terrible, there probably is not anything bad there.
I think we will not get a dream realation and then Jon going down, that would eat to much time and space. I think his repeated not getting an answer dreams will prompt him to go down there at the first possible moment and he will discover whatever in the wakeing world. But thats just me and it very much could go down very differently and I dare not say which one would be better.
I think the thing that scares him down there is not hostility or some threat, it is knowing who he is and all the danger and problems that intrails.
He does not belong, to the feast because in contrast to Ned and Robb he aint dead, and with him going up north into exile in the show, I imagine he will never be burried in the crypts. So he would not belong, even if no one is hostile towords him, it just is not his place.
Grey Waste Tim really killed it for his first stream! Great job delivering your ideas without a stutter Tim; and another great stream LML. Nimble Dick should think about giving machete lessons. Gotta know right where to strike when those gatdamn squisher degenerates come lurkin.
Really enjoyed you two
'Goomah' = what Italiens call their mistresses(salt wives)
Didn't you see the Sopranos?
I’ve been trying to get into the habit of liking before I watch I enjoy your content thank you 🙏
all hail grey waste tim. awesome episode great ideas thrown around guys
I've never really understood why people think that Ned would hide something for Jon in Lyanna's tomb. If Ned had evidence of Jon's heritage that Lyanna made him promise to keep and show to Jon someday; why would he put it in her tomb? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep that kind of thing in a location that wouldn't necessitate disturbing his sister's resting place to access? Why not bury it in the godswood, or let Howland Reed look after it?
I could see Lyanna asking Ned to bury her with something that she was sentimentally attached to; so Rhaegar's harp makes sense. However I don't think the harp is a particularly good symbol of legitimacy. Sure Rhaegar was known for his harp playing, and had a distinctive instrument, but how many people would really be able to tell Rhaegar's harp apart from a fake? Barristan probably could, but I doubt many others would be able to tell.
Personally I don't think the contents of Lyanna's tomb are that significant. I think that Jon will finish his dream, and that combined with info from someone like Bran will be enough. I think you're right when you said that the crypts are first and foremost an emotional destination for Jon. I don't think they need to contain a macguffin to be important to the story.
Nobody said they need to it was discussion about if they did?
Robert would never disturb her grave and Ned would likely prevent any so it wouldn’t be an easy place to access.
I mean Robert complained about her being buried in the crypt so Ned saying she is family grave cover it but that also can mean he deliberately made sure anything she might have had or evidence you could get from her body was blocked . The whole point of this is a discussion not saying definitively. Hell her body may not even be buried in the crypts and placed elsewhere
@@Henbot I know that nobody said that there definitely was stuff hidden in the tomb. I said that I don't understand why people think that Ned would hide something in there. Clearly a lot of people think that there might be something hidden in there but I don't see it.
My point was that Ned could hide stuff in lots of places. Why would he put it in Lyanna's tomb? Why put stuff in a place that would necessitate disturbing his sister's resting place, when there are lots of other good hiding places.
Loved listening to the two of you, like a theory jam session! Good stuff tonight 🤙🤙🤙
I’ve always thought Jon’s name would be Aemon.
BLACK KITTENNN OMG KITTYYYYYYYYY 🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤
I only started watching, but please tell me you named him Balerion
Really enjoyed this stream!! Tim was a nice addition to talk about one of my favorite topics, THE CRYPTS!!
Great stream. Lots of fun theorycrafting.
Everyone else: Man what a great stream! The theories were flying!
Me: TIM CAN WE SEE YOUR CATS MORE?!?! Purrty please? 😺
Seriously guys, this was a great stream; it's legitimately fun to watch people discuss topics they're so passionate about!
Excellent stream ! so happy Nimble D's machete gets to hang on the wall of honor...(all threatin like ) lol
Hahaha
I’m sorry about my previous comment. I deleted it. I was just annoyed in that moment, but otherwise, you’re a great RUclipsr and a pillar for those of us writhing in the wait for Winds. Keep doing what you do, David. Much respect.
"The bones remember". I really hope GhostJon doesn't eat Lyanna's bones. 🙃
Very interesting stream !
Thank you both 🙏
This worked very well looking forward to see more of you together in the future ✌🏻
Bloodraven doesn't have a history of grabbing overt power for himself. He has always had plenty of interior power, and seems pretty satisfied with playing puppet master, rather than becoming one of the puppets. So I don't think he's going to steal Bran's body, because why? He seems all the more powerful for inhabiting the weirwoods than a human body
Great stream! Hope the two of you will collab some more
Just had a thought at 1:50:45. Bran plugs into the weirwood way beyond the wall in BR's cave. David talks about the Astral plane and its possible this is how the connection is made. But I want to posit that taking into account the theory in this video that the underground cave system may run from the Frost Fangs to Dorne, as Tim says, in conjunction with the the theory that it's the roots that may be creating the caves, then it seems that Bran could also be accessing the Winterfell weirwood via a connected root system that runs under the Wall, under the whole span of Westeros. This is different from accessing one weirwood and getting full access to all the weirwoods knowledge as Lml explains it, but I think connecting via the underground route system could be cool physical representation of a fully connected magical network of greenseers in the trees. Like how all the trees in a forest are connected via the roots, and how a forest could be seen as one living organism. Ramp that up to 1000fantasy%, and you have the old gods, a living god organism that spans the entirety of Westeros.
This would be super cool because I always wondered how Bran would be able to see into the past beyond Winterfell's godswood. I had thought he could only do this because of his connection to/longing for home due to the fact that he only sees from that weirwood's eyes. Using the theories all together, we can theorize that Bran will, as he grows more powerful and adept, travel further down the root system and see into the past at the God's eye weirwood grove, at the isle in Oldtown, and at the Harrenhal godswood where Lyanna and Rhaegar may have met (Arya hides in the godswood in Harrenhal to practice needlework and this is where Lyanna may have hidden, since the two are always compared to one another. Rhaegar being a mystical emo may have sought the quiet of the godswood to play his harp so this could be where they met).
I like this theory for how we could end up seeing all these key events through Bran's eyes.
19:09 new headcanon: Rhaegar's harp is Brian May's Red Special!!!
Love Tim, hope he stops by again ❤️
I can see Dany dying in a heroic self sacrefice very well, though I think it will be prompted by some sort of snapping moment before. Her trying to take kingslanding and acidently setting of the wildfire would make a lot of sense for several reasons and it woud be the conflict of her feeling helpless and guilty over that and rightious fury that would make her snap. Dany is way to compassionate for the route of a conqourer, it is not possible to accomodate those two extreams without devestaiting mental strain that will at one point will break her.
I need a moment of realisation for her in that regard, I think her story needs it to be belivable.
All mother mercy and conquring with fire and blood are just to opposing of eachother to work out.
Seeing Kingslanding go up in flame, her fire compleatly getting out of controll, and the people,children she wanted to protect burning infron of her would do the trick to make her break out of the delussion, that she could be both.
Only 30 mins in but I’m enjoying this discussion! I really liked the comment about Lyanna’s crypt
I feel the Red, Green, Blue magic are filters. Rather than combining all 3 magic and resulting in white light, it seems more like fire magic takes all green and blue light away, Ice the red and green...
So, if all 3 magic come together, is that where the night comes from?
And do they then lose some of their abilities?
“Shadows cannot live in the dark, Ser Davos. They are the servants of Light.
about the black Lightbringer sword: Ned's Ice is the first and the most important black sword we get introduced to, and then it gets split in half. so maybe the original Lightbringer sword got split as well and right now it has a new life in other swords - which would line up with what we expect, the Others will be fought with the white sword and then a bunch of "lesser" black swords.
Only part way through my watch, but had to stop and say what an intelligent stream, so many smart and good ideas. Bravo.
I agree that RLJ has the most evidence to it but I think it’s pretty funny that people point at Lyanna thinking Robert won’t stick to one bed as evidence she fell for Rhaegar(the already married dude). Even if he divorced Elia and a relationship with him is kosher…. He’s not sticking to one bed.
Yeah I think the point is just that Lyanna is perceptive
@@DavidLightbringer thanks for responding, man.
Came here from obsidian nights pod where Grey waste was on! Was very interested in his theory’s and couldn’t wait to hear this:)
Yay, looking forward to this. That first crypts stream was I think the second time I'd heard of you but it was the video that made me subscribe I'm pretty sure. I literally remember where I was listening to it!
This live stream was really fun!!
Rewatching an older video always is fun
one of the chat comments about Young Griff and Quentyn having a romance... it would be sweet irony for Arienne and JonCon if Aegon is gay
@@peterg9729 I was thinking more how JonCon crushed on Rhaegar and Arienne's main weapon is seduction
Autumn hit Michigan hard this week. Feels like I'm working down in the crypts right now 🥶
Fantastic stream, really enjoyed how well you played off each other. One tin foil I’ve been kicking around that you reminded me of is did Mel actually burn the “horn of winter” or was it another of her illusions. The description of it shimmering green in the fire makes it sound like it either had magic or maybe magic was used to make us think she burned it (similar to rattle bones/nance) She seems to keep a hoard of magical items and is able to sense power. If this is similar or opposite to dragon binder’s power I would think she would want it for herself or maybe I got it backwards and destroyed it since it was a threat to her or her cause.
I was so firmly against the idea, I would have debated on behalf of SQUISHERS being down in the crypts before dragon eggs …but I’m a good 85% convinced now 😳 there is some really interesting, poetic symmetry there that GRRM could be capitalizing on
& side note, Graywaste Tim was great! Super insightful and brought up a lot of fresh points. Hope he comes back, and that you keep streaming with more guests too!
Throughly enjoyable!!!!!
The Blackfyre Backfire! Lol
Grey Waste Tim was a lovely addition, thanks LML
13:55 I read that the trident is how the god copulates the earth mother. It's three phalli for the Triple Goddess. She's made fertile by the rain/lightning that comes down from above into the soil, even
Soooo dope I love rewatching these
Great stream. I definitely think Jon's name is Aemon. I believe we have two separate instances where Jon actually refers to himself as Aemon. It would also make sense considering his relationship with Maester Aemon. Also as far as Dunk and Egg goes, I think that it is possible that a majority of the next story that takes place in Winterfell is completed. I remember reading somewhere that the "She Wolves" was supposed to be the story published in "Dangerous Women" and not "The Princess and the Queen". I always wondered if She Wolves was shelved because it might give us too much information before TWOW was released. Maybe GRRM was afraid it would foreshadow too much or simply spoil a major plot point in the main series.
Great stream. I like the harp and information idea.
Most exceptional👍🔥🔥🔥
2:25:20 What Grey Waste Tim is reading (I think he said about the Scarlet Woman? From a different author...) There was something about it, how it's worded or just the vibe from it that instantly a particular prayer from Catholicism popped into my head. One of the prayers to the Virgin Mary, that few these days know... I believe it's called Hail Holy Queen.
(I included what I remember of it below.) I bring this up because you guys will reference different historical & mythical characters that have symbolic connection to George's characters... And perhaps Mary also fits into one of your archetypes.
I could be wrong with how my brain interpreted what Grey Waste Tim was reading as connecting to the prayer. The connection for me was... Mary supposed to be there for all God's children, as in adult and child a like, just as a mother is there for all of her own children with unconditional love and understanding regardless of their place in the word, behavior, or how the rest of the world views them. As well as those hurt, repressed, in pain. Those society over looks or condemns. And while she's supposed to represent someone pure and without sin - there were people that believed she was a "harlot" or spread rumors about her. Which is similar to how some of the women characters in George's books are talked about by other characters.
Hail holy Queen, Mother of
mercy, our life, our sweetness,
our hope. To you do we cry,
poor banished children of Eve,
To you do we send up our sighs,
mourning, weeping in this valley
of tears. Turn then, most
gracious advocate, thine eyes
of mercy toward us, and after
this our exile, show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb,
Jesus. Oh clement, Oh loving,
Oh sweet Virgin Mary, Pray for
us sinners, now and at the hour
of our death.
Re: there only being a few bad or mad Targs, I think GRRM isn't just showing us that every family has a few of them, but this is also the flaw in inherited power. Because yes, every family has a few nutjobs, but when those nutjobs inherit absolute power, that's where the problems lies.
Actually, it reminds me of a Jane Austen quote from Pride & Prejudice. I can't find it right now, but the idea is this, 'All of us like having our own way and do as often as we can, only Darcy has more power to have his own way than most other people do.'
It's a lucky thing when the person who inherits power and wealth is relatively benevolent or even harmless, but Aerys is a great example of when that isn't the case.
And so the Targs might not have more crazy people in the family than most, but they almost always have more power.
well said
Purple drank and graywasted. Fire
For “promise me”, one might like to look at Stannis and his daughter (or greek myth mothers). Probably Lyanna wanted Ned to put Aegon(Jaqen, Jon’s elder brother, the middle child) on the throne and kill Robert. That being said, I still think “Promise me…Ned” is specifically naming Ned Dayne”Ned” for keeping Arthur’s oathbreaking a secret, and keeping letting the Kingsguard take Val to the wall, Daenerys to Tyrosh, the Daynes sisters Rhaenys and baby Ned back to Starfall.
The Idea Lyanna would bother asking any Stark male (modern) to protect a baby, much less her’s is ridiculous. Ned blew up the seven kingdoms to protect bastard LANNISTERS, Jon wildling baby at the wall, defying King Stannis.
Love these two guys so much. Thank you!
Do you think that there was a move to try to keep information from being downloaded into the weirwood net? Like did R+L go somewhere that they wouldn’t be picked up by Bloodraven/weirwoods? And if bones remember, could that be why it’s so important that Neds bones made it to winterfell? To download what he knows into the stark crypts/stones?
Seriously awesome stream. One of my favorites!
Also a bit of an ego boost because I came up with many (though of course not all) of the same ponderings and predictions about the crypts just from foreshadowing found in Book 1 when I first read it a couple years ago.
I am reading Storm of Swords currently and have just finished that Jon chapter where he's traveling along the Milkwater with the wildlings, right before they get to the Fist. I've found many of the same bits you reference to support claims about the horn plus a few more I haven't heard you mention yet (but I'm sure you have somewhere; there are still many of your videos I am yet to watch!)
Yeah you know if you’re familiar with a lot of classical fantasy or classical mythology, you can spot some of what Martin is doing a lot faster than you would otherwise. I didn’t know as much of that seven years ago when I first read the books, but now when I watch or read something new I can spot those things pretty quickly. What specifically do you think will happen with the crypts? I can see so many ideas I don’t know if I have a favorite
@@DavidLightbringer I also see so many possibilities it's hard to narrow it down to a favorite or most probable course. I feel strongly (or maybe I just really WANT to see it) that one of the horns, be that dragonbinder or Joramund's horn once repaired, will "wake the giants" beneath Winterfell. Regardless of who they fight and on whose side (if it is a matter of "sides" at that point in the story), I expect the ghosts of ancient members of House Stark to walk the halls of Winterfell.
Winterfell is surely named for the place where winter fell in the past, and so why not have it be the place where winter rises again?
Then after hearing you talk about Jon being the child owed to the Others, I got to thinking Winterfell will be where the "otherized" part of Jon is "killed" (by Arya, would be my best guess) and his true resurrected, fire magic powered self is re-born.
Time to re-name Blackfyre to Backfyre.
Tim was great!
Always enjoy hearing your insights, Lightbringer! Thank you for having GW Tim on, as he was incredibly insightful as well. Tim, I’m so glad you pointed out that Mance was searching along the Milkwater for the horn. That’s even more evidence that Mance is Arthur Dayne as who else carried a blade as white as Milkglass. Mance/Arthur would also already know the truth about Jon and have even more reason to search in the Crypts, and look in Lyana’s tomb.
Love the license plate. ISTREAMR love it
1:05 I’m so curious, does anyone know why the streamers may not be named?
Could the Starks warging abilities be related to their Other blood?
Very cool episode, M'lord- I like the dynamic when you have a guest : )
Currently catching up on some vids
As always, keep up the good work educating our butts :D
For Jon's chapter I'd love to have the opposite. To have some pov chapters of him while he is dead. Not even wighted yet but just still lying in the snow... I would love to even have Jon as one of the first chapters of the book. But I know it's wishful thinking...
There will be at least one Ghost pov with some crows saying King.
If the Night's Queen is a Stark, could the 13th Lord Commander have been a dragon lord?
A dragon lord as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch could fit with the Targaryen tradition of resisting the Others, or feeling destined to do battle with them
yes I think original NK was Azor Ahai, and NQ a Stark. Most of the echoes of these characters line up with this
What about why are others only male and cotf only female, except one i believe who is like bloodraven wrapped in trees?
I tend to think there are male and female singers, as it’s left ambiguous, but there are in fact only male Others aside from Corpse Queen of legend. Check out my Weir Walkers video for my attempt to answer the question of a White Walker origin with the Weirwoods
Rewatch squad reporting for duty!
My favorit flood myth is from the aztecs where the watergoddes that was takeing the place of the sun was acused of being a poser and so she cried blood for years and years and drownd the whole earth and creation in her tears . . . the aztecs have in generell the funniest world ending stories. My favorit was the jaguar rain ^^
Da crypts of mystery 🤘🔥🖤
26:33 who's channel? I can't make out the youtube channel you recommend
More videos with Cleo attacking the hat! ❤
I don't see how Blood Raven could really benefit from stealing Bran's body. He's paraplegic child and Blood Raven is already a powerful greenseer. I guess it might extend his life but there seems to be more evidence in the text to suggest that an enthroned greenseer is immortal than that they rely on body swaps to persist in the physical world.
Totally agree.
He wants to leave the cave.
Maybe Night Queen was a Stark and Night King was a Casterly because they disappeared after long night especially if you say timeline is wrong
How likely it is that instead of compromise with thee Others (like humans leaving the weirwood net), but they are crushed with Jon and Dany dieing in the process and Bran becaming a Leto II style god-emperor
Rhaegar, Rhaegar and the sacred harp. Dancing through the clovers.
The Others not liking iron makes me think of how iron is the reason human blood is red. And, of course, the Others have "pale blue blood."
For a long time, I've felt that the ice magic of ASOIAF is antithetical to life - it does preserve, but it also prevents change, which is necessary to life and reproduction. Whereas red magic or fire magic consumes, as life does.
I think green magic is a sort of balance between the two.
It does make me think of the five stages of wuxia: wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. Each leads to the next, each is spurred by one, each is complemented by another, and each destroys one, holding all in balance.
Plus, of the primary colors of light or the colors of the rainbow, green lies between red and blue.
So I agree with you that magic/mana/astral energy all seems to have the same source in ASOIAF, as magic users can approach the stream from different elemental gateways. And I think that mana supports the various elements or stages without bias, but the elements express the energy in different ways.
Instead of a magical skeleton being in the crypt, what if the magic skeleton is iced up inside The Wall to help ward it against the walkers?
While Rhaegar played a harp, could the appearance of the harp you two shared actually be describing a sword?! I like how George talks about swordfighting as a dance, so maybe 🤷🏼♂️
I like the shirt👕👔 👍
" . . .could not quite thread the needle . . . " he says while I am just threading the needle for handsweing 18th century pockets . . . I feel called out ^^
🤣🤣🤣
@@DavidLightbringer ^^
This is an awesome stream! So many good ideas
How did Vermax get down into the crypts?! How big is the doorway and passageways? How did it move around down there and not wreck house?
Maybe a cave entrance outside winterfell?
@@AuzarionSolaris would be a serious security issue for the denizens of Winterfell
Read the runes, Melisandre was charging the horn not destroying it. Three horns form like Voltron, two spirals (double helix) and a reed cap like a clarinet.