SSB. Literally popped up with no build up and no climax whatsoever. The way they presented it was like a 12 year old minecraft youtuber "did some mining" offscreen
True! This is even more evident if you watch SS4 Goku's fight with Omega Shenron. Although this was many years before Ultra Instinct would become a thing, he does show mastery over being able to make his body react on its body. So this has been foreshadowed for years
True, but the way Goku just forgets about his martial arts prowess and only uses raw power, with Jiren comparing him to the most brain dead character in the tournament (Berserk Kale) was character assassination at its finest
I think many people confuse "unearned" with "unsatisfying". Golden Frieza is the perfect example, because he literally trained for it, but suddenly seeing a Frieza who's now golden as a result of offscreen training, yeah, it felt very anticlimatic, which is exactly the problem people tend to have.
I liked Golden Frieza reveal but Black Frieza was anticlimatic as hell. Like he shows up end of arc announces he is now black beats everyone up then leaves. Like my brain is just ??? It felt surreal
Frieza trained for four months off-screen and you claim thats, unsatisfying. Reaching a power similar to Goku and above Majin Buu with literally no reason or anything to show for it.
@@Chrisdish frieza was the second strongest non demon in the universe for years without an ounce of training. He was so strong he had direct contact with the god ofdestruction. It does make sense that after a short albeit probably intense training he would get so strong. Also remember he wasnt equal to blue at the time, he got curb stomped
@@sul_9999 I thought golden frieza was equal or superior to blue like how he beat Goku the first few seconds but the problem was he didn’t train properly to maintain it so his power wasn’t as great as he transformed the first few seconds whereas Saiyans with their zenkai slowly increase ( it’s also said that their zenkai power up stopped and maxed out during the black arc )
I feel like Orange Piccolo is a unique case, in that while it’s “unearned”, it’s absolutely deserved. He’s had a couple big power jumps in the series, primarily fusing with Nail and Kami, but he’s essentially had nothing since the Cell saga. TLDR: Big Green deserves his Vitamin C.
Same thing for Rage Trunks, imo It didn't involve effort, but given Trunks' years of struggling in the future, it was more than earned. Thematically earned.
It would’ve been better had it been earned. Yeah he deserves it but he also deserves the respect of having good writing and some thought put into his power boost. This was really just some bs to have him “equal” to Goku and Vegeta which cheapens it even more imo
Forgot to mention Master Roshi somehow quietly increasing in power dramatically through "offscreen training" after living hundreds of years and not even getting to a point of being worth mentioning at the start of Z, to the point that he can suddenly hold his own next to the other human Z fighters in the ToP.
I don't think it was strength that he built up. In the tournament of power or w.e. it was he was using intelligent techniques and not so much grappling strength. Think of bobbidy, his strength was weak but his "moves" were superior.
@@emmanuelgutierrez8616 No, while Goku was out scouting for the ToP, there was a scene where Roshi was mind controlled and was able to fight off Tien and even had a brief fight with base form Goku where he remarked Roshi must've been training because he had gotten a lot stronger than he used to be.
we definitely needed better explanations rather than just "training". Frieza is unsatisfying but whatever, he had a lot of room for story around him. Can't quite do the same with the Z-fighters who spent decades each honing their skills. Goku/Vegeta can justify it by goig with Beerus/Whis, but everyone else needed *something*. Maybe Piccolo meets another universe's Namek that got to train for decades due to Frieza not invading. Gohan could have found some off screen masters like how Goku did when he learned Instant Transmission. IDK what you'd do with 17/18, but you can say some mixture of Bulma tech and traning for their biological sides can boost them up. Maybe a hot take, but maybe Roshi/Krillin/Tien could learn to wield and control God Ki to explain their power ups and train with that. Not like they using it for anyone else outside of explaining SSG. As another hot take, I think it's fine to powercreep people for an arc when the story wants to focus on other characters. Sucks for fan favorites like Tien, but even a franchise as big as DB can only do so much in every arc.
@@raze2012_ it sucks cuz the way they go about making them stronger is to increase their raw power. Wish they did stuff like HxH where they refine their techniques and actual ki control. all DBZ and DBS does is try to push strength and their ability to survive explosions or tank a punch.
I kinda disagree about Roshi. I liked the approach to him taken in Super. 1) Roshi's character had always been about intelligent fighting and misdirection as much as strength. Half the point of the character is to demonstrate that power level measurements, punch measuring machines, and other "objective" power scaling comparisons are BS. It isn't about the power, it is about the application. 2) Roshi at the beginning of DBZ wasn't at an irrelevant level of combat ability. He was retired. He was as capable as any of the human fighters that stood up against Nappa. He wasn't there because he was trusting the next generation to defend Earth. 3) In the actual ToP, just about every fighter but Roshi was fighting an endurance battle trying to save energy for a 48 minute battle. But, Roshi wasn't. The was using his own life force in techniques that were as dangerous to himself as his opponents. If he hadn't been knocked out of the tourney, he would never have survived to the end, even if he won every fight. That level of "putting it all on the table" can make a lot of difference.
For me, the issue isn't a transformation being unearned; it's that there are too many transformations. At this point I just want strategy and technique rather than a new color
@@drewboden6981 I mean i feel like recently besides like beast that's not really too much of the case? UI is still relevant and while tui can be considered a new transformation it's basically goku mastering UI like the Saiyans did ssj into the different grades. Piccolo never really had a transformation plus it being linked to shenron feels nice. Ego is kinda in the same spot as UI currently with vegeta not having as much mastery as he could. It's still transformation heavy but the actual transformations have to be explored more than just i mastered it off screen and need to get a new form to do anything. It really depends where they go from here. So much is in the air they could actually diversify or just stay stuck in "i need more color" hell. I'm hoping black frieza doesn't lead to a new transformation.
Vegeta actually gets this in the Moro arc. He learns to fine-tune his ki and go beyond just using up-front brute strength. He literally has an arc on honing his existing skillset and learning skills he once despised.
@@drewboden6981lmao that’s how it’s always been….: dragon ball used to be martial arts, now it’s just power up more if you’re losing and all of a sudden you’re kicking butt
I like it imagine that the reason why Piccolo become so strong after getting his potential unlocked is because in addition to Shenron's Bonus, since Piccolo is fused with Kami and Nail, all three of them got their potential unlocked, thus adding up to a massive boost.
That is how I understood it as well. That and Shenron is literally his baby (Kami and Piccolo being considered as one now) so it stands to reason he would gimmick the system a bit in Piccolos favor.
Piccolo also always had the highest fighting IQ of any of the Z warriors, so it makes sense that he'd be crazy strong if his power level ever caught up.
@@gantz332 honestly tho, who gives a fxck?? I came here to see awesome fights, awesome animations, and new forms, who cares if it's earned, and honestly it is earned, Gohan and piccolo haven't done shxt in years, "it's about dxmn time"
Wasn't Gohan's "ultimate" form supposed to represent Gohan's power at his peak? Elder Kai even stated during the Buu saga that it'd remove any need for further transformations, Gohan could be trying to enter SS1, SS2, SS3, or even "beast mode" and he'd look no different, the only constant being the clear aura around him.
yes . but bro it nothing more than producers wanting to sell more toys and all and make more money .toriyama had already finished all character arcs or everyone at the end of the z only younger once like goten , uub were left as character to develop by toriyama at the end of z
After Buu Saga and with super episodes before Tournament Power Ultimate form become just another transformation. Remember, when he fought Goku Blue and had whole this reverse transformation going from SSJ yellow to black base form aka Ulitmate
i think from what i learned is that the Ultimate form is represent of gohans power at his peak,Or using his full potential but the ultimate form didnt use his rage potential, the beast form is supposed to release not only his full potential but his rage potential
@@TheRetifox its not really a transformation when gohan has to charge up like that it represents he hasn't been using it and it has gotten rusty as potential unleashed requires training to fully keep up which gohan hasn't been doing much of he could stack ssj on it but he doesn't because of his current goals and he deems no reason to.
It was a forced add on so tori pretty much randomly made it up. I agree the old kai explanation was much better and made gohan feel cooler, beast just feels empty and unneeded….. and the name is stupid and doesn’t fit.
U6 Saiyans naturally have a much higher base power level than u7 Saiyans. Their base power level is higher than when Goku first became a super Saiyan, they just didn't know how to use it.
except they weren't raised to use super saiyan. at all, proof being, they were surprised by it. Caulifla had cabba who had gotten a lesson from Vegeta, and yeah like he said. once something is discovered, the more people unlock it the easier it becomes because you narrow down what to do
@@Echo-pz5mi Plus, Vegeta had years of experience with the Super Saiyan form, so he'd impart the knowledge on the best way to achieve the Super Saiyan state because even if they're not from his universe, he's still the prince of ALL Saiyans
My issue with Caulifla is less the way she transformed, and more that it just shouldn't have mattered that she did. The gap in base power and skill was just too huge.
@@LordChromeGamingnah dude base goku should have been able to one shot both of them and then ss2 should have one shot Kefla. Because in the anime at least goku absorbed god ki into his base meaning that base top goku should be a bit higher than battle of gods ssg goku and i refuse to believe that they somehow surpassed ssb levels of power despite the fact they were on the same level as cabba before fusing. Kale I can kinda understand but she should not be anywhere near ssb level and caulifla should not have even been able to scratch base goku
Piccolo was criminally under developed, and deserved his boost. He’s a main character and they treat him like a sideman. Looking forward to seeing more of him and this incredible DESERVED!!! Awakening. (Hate the name tho, “orange piccolo” terrible lol)
Piccolo is part of the main cast, but is more of a supporting character than a main protagonist like Goku. I would even say Vegeta is a main protagonist, but since everyone likes Vegeta he gets the cool toys
How about, he Needs to sacrifice the Earths Dragon forever including a Spell coming from it, that no other Namekian can Create Dragonballs on Earth again. Then again this would need to be Pushed with a Very good and Hopeless Story for them. Not this Grew Minion stuff, making Androids as strong as them. Whats the Point in all this? Just have Mini Grew make 1000000 of these Androids. Could beat anything.
The problem is that all the "training" happens off screen. We're not given any information on what that training entails other than some vague notion of increasing one's power level. We also never get see the effort and the pay off afterwards. The problem isn't unearned powerups, the problem is that these powerups are poorly justified. And then the fact that these powerups often become worthless after the villain is defeated because the next villain is going to be too powerful for that power-up. So it often invalidates the the entire point of getting stronger because they'll never be strong enough for that strength to mean something narratively.
But that happened since the start of dbz no? kaioken was used in one fight, then powercrept, then ssj same, ssj2, ssj3 didn't even get to do much because buu is so broken and they love ending the series with a genki dama, saiyan god red didn't even get out of the movie, same with blue, after golden freezer blue was just loosing everywhere, I would like the explanation for the forms too, but most of the times is just they got stronger, or felt a really strong emotion
@@asoret Yeah you've highlighted the exact problem with power scaling in anime. When you keep introducing new and stronger forms, the other forms become functionally useless. Why waste your time powering up super saiyan when you can just go to straight to super saiyan god? And it's not like the forms all have special powers or techniques unique to that form. Nope it's just the same guy powering up.
@@bananamerchant6387 I wish they at least gave more fights to each form, and not just being useless as a warm up, because they lazy to transform into their most powerful form directly, or at least some advantages or disadvantages of why using one or another, they only did something like that with ssj3 leaving room for ssj2, and something in the super manga with red and blue but still, now goku can't do anything without ultra instinct
Yeah, the issue is narrative framing at the end of the day. You don't NEED every villian to be stronger, but the way DB does arcs makes it always need to one up itself. One Punch Man is a perfect example on how to manage this. Saitama can beat anyone when he's there, but for various reasons he can't always be there. That's what lets other fighters shine, even if they aren't Saitama level. DB could use some more "b plots" to let characters grow without necessarily needing to catch up to whatever menace Goku/Vegeta is facing.
It also doesn't help in beast's situation because looking at Goku and Vegeta's training, how the hell did Gohan even replicate what they did to even get to blue let alone UI when they were trained by literal gods. Beast was made for Gohan fanboys. Training off screen is just boring
How is Roshi not included here? He had a power level of 150 in the beginning of Z as a 100+ year old man who spent his whole life pursuing Marshall arts, then somehow becomes millions of times more powerful within a few years or perhaps months? Ain't no way.
I mean at the same time he never encountered other worldly godly strong beings from other worlds u can only get so strong from being on earth as a human😊
To be fair, Roshi had much longer to gain that strength than every other character. He wasn't involved in any of the arcs between Raditz and Goku Black. It feels unearned, but it is still understandable. He is still by far the weakest member of the team, even though he is by far the most skilled. 20ish years of training to be the weakest member of the team demonstrates that most characters have limited potential relative to the heavy hitters, and Vegeta is openly worried about Roshi joining the team.
Ehh I think since the start of DragonBall he had been more pursing booba then martial arts. And thematically Super brings that back home exactly, with him overcoming his biggest weakness. Plus his value was to be there to not have the stronger Z-fighters waste power on weaker participants, he wasn't overpowering anyone major.
Honestly to me personally, Piccolo's power up felt like a thing that was a long time coming. I understand why people think it's unearned narratively, but It feels like the character totally deserves it because of the place that he's earned in with the fans. Like if Tien suddenly got a random power up, I wouldn't be mad at all. His character totally deserves to step up and feel important again.
@@Sigismund-von-Luxembourgtrue, plus the fact that its the manifestation of the dragon that he created when he was originally kami makes sense. The fact that there was still a part of Kami, of the original power they once held, a power that could have made them invincible, makes sense.
They could expand their universe much in the way Marvel has done and oscillate between being an adventure series and an action one. Like they could easily have adventures of Tien and Gohan that I'll gladly watch. Even for events that have long since passed, like how Tien got strong enough to tribeam the living daylights out of cell. I wouldn't mind a series covering that time skip at all! Or an alternative universe with everything the same except where Gohan kept training 🙏🙏🙏. It's cool that the story is progressing forward, but they could certainly give it more depth and expand the universe
Exactly my thoughts, Piccolo trains constantly both physically and mentally and has also grown a huge amount emotionally from his origins. A lot of his other power ups were from his origin as part of Kami or from being a Namekian, all very narrative and fitting, but I think Piccolo just getting a power up regardless of source feels absolutely earned by now just on his own personal merits as a person.
@@michaellarose4913 Honestly a lot of people got salty about Piccolo being able to beat Ultimate Gohan but I saw it as Piccolo should of already been at Buu level during that arc since he literally never stops training. But I also think Tien should be around SSG Blue level for the same reasons. Both of those guys basically train non stop 24/7
The Vegeta rage boost against Beerus serves the purpose of showing how Vegeta had changed to a loving husband now. It also didn't last long enough for it to be too overpowered, which makes me feel it was justified
correct me if I am wrong but I feel Vegeta also got a rage boost against Super Perfect Cell in response to future trunk's death. It was just unmatched to Cell's power it looked as if nothing had changed. The same could b said with Beerus, like Cell there was no damage done. The only difference was Beerus got ragdolled more than Cell
To me at least, Vegeta's rage boost vs Beerus was earned when looking at both a story and power perspective. In the story, Vegeta learned to care for his family, even throwing hands with Beerus because he ruined her Birthday Party. It even makes sense for a power perspective as Vegeta never thought of getting SSJ3 instead pushing his body using his preexisting toolkit and was rewarded by surpassing Goku
I actually think it wasn't earn until he showed he cared for his family's wellbeing more than for his pride, when he humiliates himself to entertain Beerus, it was the true show of what matters to him, so a rage boost there, feels great
It is not earned because Nobody jut Gohan ever got rage boosts like that, not even Goku. Caring about one’s family has nothing to do with it, not everyone has that hidden potential inside them to unleash when enraged. In Z, those rage boosts where a plot point for Gohan, a special attribute to him, it meant something. Now everyone and their mother gets a magical power boost just from being angry and it can be used to cheese any fight at any point if the plot so desires. Imagine Vegeta just obliterating Super Perfect Cell after getting in a enraged state after Trunks was killed. It was a meaningful moment for Vegeta and his character development, but that doesn’t mean he deserved a sudden power boost from nothing to defeat the enemy. He was not strong enough to beat Cell, period. And that is how it should be.
True. But that's the problem. That'll never happened hence why it's unearned not to mention some power ups are technically impossible to achieve anyhow without hacks so to speak. Shenron boosting piccolo was definitely a hax power up. In Gohan's case it's always due to potential this potential that but really at the end of the day it's just convenient plot power. He hardly ever had to train to gain those huge boosts.
@@azuredream9032 Gohan honestly could’ve been *THE* Ace for team 7 in the tournament of power if he kept up his training nevermind the fact that the super saiyan god ritual could’ve easily have been repeated for every saiyan and would’ve been a permanent buff to his power If necessary
@@dayvonlouis5187 If he kept up his training yes i agree with u. He definitely could've been the strongest at the top and without the typical "he has the potential" convenient plot power all the time.
Idk if ultra ego would be considered earned or not but honestly it’s hella interesting. It’s like a berserker class in an rpg. The more damage you receive the more you dish out. Seeing vegeta eyebrowless and talkin trash to granolah to taunt him while eating his attacks was so cool and different than any other form
I love that it's the exact opposite of ultra instinct, unstoppable force vs. immovable object, all coming down to which one slips up or gets tired first
I think an even bigger issue I have with beast gohan being "unearned" is that the whole set up to it didn't feel like it had any weight, this is also a problem I had with SSB. It just didn't feel like a "Oh man shit's going down" situation like in the example of SSJ, 2, and 3
For the first super Saiyan, Vegeta kept hyping up the legend for so many episodes, and Goku's power jumps hinted that he might have finally done it but we could never tell. Then he turned Golden only after he got angry from his friends deaths, and Saiyan's are a warrior race so are known for pride and anger and revenge. It made sense. The second one also had a climb to get to it. They each trained in the hyperbolic time chamber, and each ascended past the first level but to an incomplete bulky one. Goku tells Gohan to stay in super Saiyan form so they can get used to it, and so it feels like there's an actual logic and work that needs to be put in. Then Gohan passes everyone up and finally unlocks his real potential and it feels satisfying, especially that cell was like the 10th android they fought. Super Saiyan three was the most random but we at least get told that Goku has been training with basically Gods that have been training for millennium, and he even battles ss2 Vegeta beforehand so we know they haven't been sitting around. And even after all this ss3 was sort of incomplete because Goku could only maintain it for a limited amount of time. The God form is when it starts getting dumb. Why would many regular Saiyan's combine to make a God? Where did the godness come from? I'm still not even sure what Blue is, they just turned blue one day. Ultra instinct makes sense I guess, I'm just not a fan of the animation is super. Except the Broly movie.
@@bradspitt3896"They just turned blue one day" is exactly how i feel about dragon ball as a whole, ssj1 was earned, ssj2 and 3 are questionable but still feel earned. god form? i mean sure if you combine all of those guys in a ritual to make someone temporarily a weaker god, then sure. but ssblue? why? honestly i htink the battle of gods should have been the end of all of dragon ball, atleast in regards to transformations, maybe not even the battle of gods, z by itself was a fine end.
We kinda just already knew the formula to the show at this point we know that goku will always win and he won’t die because the show and franchise is so big generates so much money they not gonna let it die
Evo Blue vegeta did train for. He blew up the time chamber pushing his blue form to its limit and trying to get past it. While he didn’t unlock the form until the TOP, the training was arguably there, and it took the extra emotional motivation he acknowledges when he unlocks it to push him past the limit.
I really liked Vegeta's rage burst against Beerus. A lot of Gohan's early rage came out in response to seeing his loved ones hurt. Vegeta experiencing that in response to Bulma being hurt I think showed a lot of his character growth from the Buu saga coming to fruition. He loves his family and throws down with a god when they're harmed.
@@MayHugger It's not a form and it is absolutely earned. Vegeta went through a lot of character growth up to that point and Saiyans can have rage moments with temporary power-ups. Goku even had one not too late after when he heard they killed Chichi and Gohan in that timeline. Goku also had one (and arguably several) was before in DB, namely when Krillin got killed the first time. But ya'll posers don't know about that.
@@MayHugger You didn't, but I think they're trying to say it's irrelevant because 1) It's just a temporary boost. 2) It's well established that multiple characters get rage boosts. It's not an example of an unearned increase in power or new form that can be accessed again. It's just someone going at 200% for a bit.
Did you notice how the animated styles of Both Piccolos Transformation and Gohans are very different...It's almost like this movie was ment to have Piccolo as the central part of it but then they just decided to through in Gohan at the End and quickly did his CGI..
It’s because cause gohan wasn’t actually meant to be a central part of the movie in the original script, but someone at toei begged toriyama to have gohan be given a bigger role in the movie which doesn’t surprise me tbh
Dude this is literally the case. I loved this movie, but its a common known fact that Toriyama had originally planned for this to be a piccolo-centric movie. But then Toei confronted him and told him it would be a good idea to involve gohan in the movie as well. Although I love that they finally gave Gohan another powerup, having a piccolo centric movie would've been amazing.
Young Gohan doesn't so much have a rage boost it is more like the lack of rage being a hindrance than the presence of rage being a benefit. It isn't a rage buff he has a fear nerf his anger negates his fear
In terms of training, it is more "earned" when it is physically shown the characters are training and I don't mean one panel or flashback. In the old DBZ anime it was shown through multi-episode showcases that training was happening. If I'm told frieza trained for four months off camera, the weight of it doesn't hit me, but if I see for ten episodes that frieza has been honing his skills and earning the form then it clicks better in the brain.
exactly, also it's not only a case of being unearned, some transformations like Ultra Ego and True UI can also be lame simply because they accomplish nothing in the story, even if they make sense in theory. Gohan Beast was neither earned because we haven't seen his training neither did he himself knew about the transformation, neither did it happen because of some emotional or hype moment, atleast not on the level of other transformation like SSJ1, SSJ2 or UI
I think Vegetas rage boost is thematicly perfect and shows his character growth. He gets that boost for a similar reason to why goku unlocked SSJ to begin with. Where Goku gained SSJ when Freiza killed Krillin, Vegeta got a boost when Beerus attacked Bulma, one of the few people he cares about more than maybe anyone else.
not to mention the stupid s-cells thing, where the more peaceful a Saiyan's life, the more powerful they grow, and up until that point, Vegeta was living the life of an honest family man, accumulating happy memories, and thinking that maybe, for once, he wouldn't need strength. I can't remember which arc, but there was one point where Vegeta straight-up said he was going to give up training to spend time with his family... which never worked out, but still, the fact he was going to commit to that is wild.
It’s also pretty clear to see that looking back Bulma really is the main reason Vegeta is the way he is now, sure goku beat him and crushed his pride but until he was forced to stay on earth and bulma took him in and even after that his goal was still to beat goku. I can only imagine how many headaches she had, I love all these characters so much and seeing his power explode like that after Bulma was hurt to me was literally a perfect way of showing everyone who wasn’t really aware of his history, just how much she meant to him and how much she had done for him
@@themanysirs1814 Yes there is a point where goku asks vegeta to go train, but he rejects him because Bulma is about to give birth, actually makes goku look stupid for only thinking in training not caring about family that much, forgetting common sense, but well
The biggest problem was the very invention of “power levels”. It was an early example of keeping the workings of a system a mystery in media, and opening that box can be a pandoras curse.
I’ll say this, Granola and Gas’ power ups being unearned is kind of the less obvious theme of that Arc, seeing as Goku, Vegeta and Frieza all surpass them through hard work. Doesn’t change the fact that they’re unearned though, just saying that we shouldn’t really beat on them for it.
I will beat on them for having their power functionally without consequences. "But Granola had to sacrifice 150 years of his lifespan!" Yeah, in a universe where if he was smart, he'd have just waited for the dragonballs to be available again or use a different set (he still had three years left to live) and use them to wish for eternal youth or even just to get his lifespan extended by 150 years. If it was instead that he only had weeks or days to live, then it could be an actual sacrifice since he'd likely not have time to use those dragon balls again nor get another set.
@@MurasakiTsukimaru what about piccolo who did practicaly same thing? And in his case there isn't really any price to pay. He didn't even have to find dragon balls. And on top of that get something extra from shenron. Nice for him to have it but it is unearned.
@@dark-xh7fs you mean the same piccolo that has been constantly training for decades and somehow keeping up with the saiyans and only ever getting one power up (nail) piccolo actually earned and deserved the power up, while gronola wished for it without working hard for it at all
I'm honestly kind of sick of the moving goal post that is "hidden potential" they keep falling back on whenever they want Gohan to be relevant again. Every time it's "you see? This is the TRUE Gohan!" before he falls into indolence again so he can speedily catch up in a later arc after he realizes for the umpteenth time that he really needs to get it together.
This is what makes Gohan’s power up unearned . Plus in the movie he was just playing according to the actions of piccolo. He was a puppet to the plot and there was no real sense of accomplishment and value in atttaining Beast form.
Same with any character which is why I'm bored of DBS. Buu Saga didn't make much sense but fusion was a nice change from the random power-ups. People forget how motivating the training in DB and DBZ felt. Would have been nice to see genuine training arcs again.
@@tuureimmonen8979 training used to have actual goals beyond 'defeat the next bad guy'. They allowed exploration, character moments, and use of intellect. These days, that get called 'filler'. Nobody cares, just get it over with and beat them up.
@@tsm688Fr or it just not shown at all because all of the said training happened during the time-skip which is pretty much an off-screen tactic for going over something as important as that. It really does become straining over some time.
Yeah at this point power levels depend on what the plot wants them to be. I've stopped caring about power levels and that has diminished my enjoyment of Super and all its movies.
Trunk's transformation could have been so good if they just took two oanels to explain it. Trunks could have absorbed a large amount of god ki since there was so much being used in that fight. What if his spirit bomb sword was made half of god ki, and he used half the energy that made the sword to give him that boost. Something simple like that could have made the form so much cooler.
That can be agreed with personally and they could have had a chance for trunks to have wished his tail back when in goku’s timeline and achieve a form against god ki (copium for ssj4 returning)
I like the idea of Frieza, for probably the first time in his life, ACTUALLY TRAINING, then realizing he had so much more power that was locked off by his own arrogance and pride. Kinda like the explanation for 5th? form Cooler. I feel it does add to the Namek arc all the way back in Z, with Goku having earned his strength and compassion, while Frieza was born with overwhelming power and thus had no respect for it or anyone weaker, ever.
Frieza has 5 form too watch SDBH but what's cool is We will never know who's stronger MechaCooler or 5th Form Golden because 5th form Golden was struggling to fight Cumber while MechaCooler took on both Vegeta and Goku Blue at the same time
Honestly that also kind of counted for Vegeta and Nappa as well. Once you're in a certain position of power and no one comes close to taking you out. You kind of get complacent after awhile and think your the top dog and can basically get what you want. It's kind of why i like how Vegeta reacted to seeing Goku equal to his strength and even giving him a challenge all throughout their fight.
It's complete bullshit that Super proposed the idea Frieza NEVER trained in his life in all of DBZ. He got completely obliterated by Goku back on Namek, comes back as a cyborg and doesn't think about training???
Freeza and the whole he's a prodigy and just needed 6 months to catch up to SSJB is complete BS and something just fabricated for the needs of DB Super. Doesn't make sense at all. If he catches up so quickly why not train before and take out gods of destruction or even angels. And I guess you don't need close level opponents to level up now? And new Gyniu wasn't close, shouldn't be.
I've never had a problem with Caulifla's Super Sayan and the "tingle in the back" We saw Goku transform, and then be able to use the form at will, but when it came time to teach the form to Gohan, he wanted to put Gohan through similar strife as he went through to "unlock" it instead of teaching him the technique of how he does it at will. Same with Future Gohan and Future Trunks. Gohan tries to focus on the trauma and anger. Vegeta also did the same thing with Cabba... All of them were so concentrated on how they first turned super sayan that none of them even considered that now they do it without it. Cabba would never have been able to bestow that sort of anger uppon Caulifla, and she rightfully asked him how he does it now that his first time is through. He tells her and she can transform. Dragon Ball often also does that whole thing where people are "on the cusp" of a new form and just need to push through the glass ceiling. From Cabba's admission, Caulifla was already much stronger than he was. She wasn't just almost Super Sayan level, she had burst through that level already and just needed to learn how to trigger and control the form. As far as unearned powerup go, it is hard not to mention Super Dragonball Heroes... it has a dubious canon, but Future/Xeno Trunks becoming Super Sayan God OFFSCREEN was quite the kick in the nuts.
I woulda rather Beast was something Gohan ALREADY had from the start of the movie and was treated as a new trick he was still working the kinks out of similar to when Goku did Kaioken Blue against Hit. I think then it would have felt less sloppy since it would attribute it to his actually training all along.
Pretty sure toriyama said something along the line of “he always had this power in him ever since the buu saga, he just needed the last push to get it”
@@DysfonctionPlayy Listen man, it's dragon ball. There's tons of plot holes that have existed ever since Z. Ofc it's easy to point out this, and that when they introduce new stuff, but I doubt beast was even thought of when they were producing the TOP in anime.
I like to imagine that gas and granolah's powerups were designed to be unearned on purpose to show the difference between just taking a short cut to ultimate power, and putting time and effort into achieving it the way goku and vegeta do
Biggest problem with recent dragon ball is it’s all decided by how strong a character is. No types of ki like special attacking ki to cut through someone’s guard. If something of the sorts were introduced it’s at least be a nice way to explain further all the different kinds of attacks like Krillin’s disc
I agree its become to generic Just be stronger than Character X thats it We dont have any Magic/Hax users or any other abilties where we would have a rock, paper scissors scenario where the rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper and paper beats rock But cause everyone has the same ability it makes it too predictable and uninteresting
@@BLACKSTA361that's what i LIKE about dbz, every other fucking shonen on earth has whacky crazy powers that are countered by other whacky crazy powers, DBZ has simple powers and the one who is able to hit harder and tank blows better wins (not even always anyway, there is examples of weaker fighters being stronger ones). if you want goofy rock paper scizzor fights you have.... literally every other shonen on earth including all the big ones, go watch them. not to mention dbz literally DOES fucking have hax and other shit, like what do you think buu absorbing ppl stronger than him is? what do you think dabura turning ppl to stone is? remember the ginyu force member who literally had za wurudo? remember goku getting beaten by a body swap technique? jesus christ, you're just complaining that it's not ENTIRELY composed of these kind of shit instead of only 40% or whatever.
"Piccolo and Gohan power ups from emotions and plot devices are not deserved!!" looks at Gotenks and the 6 year old Super Saiyans fusing and using SSJ3... SOMEHOW.
On the subject of the ultra divine water and the Oozaru representing Goku’s potential strength, I kinda like that that sort of thing comes back around in Super with Broly. The way his power seems to embody the mind and power of the Oozaru without actually transforming.
@@critormiss6084 No the justification for that was sales and emotional resonance through nostalgia bait at the cheapest level because the Cell finale was the most popular DBZ ever was until Super.
Personally I feel that Caulifla and Kales transformations could’ve been handled differently. Have Kale transform first, she’s normally very quiet and reserved so by having her emotions hit a breaking point she transforms. Her berserker form would be like an explosion of years of repression all boiling over at once. Caulifla gets her ass kicked and starts to break down in a way that mirrors the way Vegeta unlocked Super Sayan. Her and Cabba work together to subdue Kale.
Well I for one think the way it was handled for Caulifla was fine because I think Universe 6 saiyans function slightly differently from Universe 7 saiyans. If she’s basically the queen of saiyans in her universe, why wouldn’t she have what it takes to tap into super mode.
I don’t get why the universe 6 Saiyans weren’t already able to go Super Saiyan….which would have immediately that whole discourse about unearned forms…at least in regards to them
9:05 in the manga (which came after the anime) 17's power up is rectified. Cell Jrs(Cells kids who have his DNA and therefore Saiyan DNA) are also on the island. It could be said that the Cell Jrs got 17 to where he is, but since 6 of them couldnt defeat SSJ Trunks and Goten, then 17 should be SS2 (SS3 if generous)level so Blue dont make sense(maybe Goku was holding back)
You say Cell Jrs cant get 17 to where he is cuz they're around ss2 level, well I give a counterpoint: Super Saiyan Blue level Cell Jrs now exist and know where we live (thanks saiyan dna!)
If Gohan can be a bum and train for 2-3 years and get to god level for the T.O.P. I don't see a problem with 17 training for 10-15 YEARS, and getting to god level with no god ki. He's also talented, was created to destroy ssjs WITHOUT TRAINING and had the time, energy and enhanced potential to put in the work. Like Gohan, it's a bit of a leap but isn't a deal breaker.
@@Razzlingson the bog movie even with training goku and vegeta (they are like the 2 saiyan that never slacked of training and i don't think 17 train with cell junior as much as they did cause he did take care the animals on his island) could never Imagine they could get to the level of god ki (ss god) and even if it is possible it would take a looonggg time (my point is cell junior couldn't get to that level of power in such short period of time) and when we get to the tournament of power which is only 3 YEARS after goku achieved ssg, 17 is as strong ssb which is 50× times ssg
I agree with your take on Beast Gohan. There was probably more to it in the build up for it, but most likely had to be scrapped for constraints on it being a movie. Hopefully the manga will go more in depth and build it up better.
Gohan always had more potential than goku. He just slacked off after the cell saga and after the Buu saga...but he always had the potential to outperform goku or vegeta.
Well in the manga Gohan had been training pretty intensely since before the Tournament of Power, and he’d also fought against Moro and likely got a damn good zenkai boost from that battle
Gohan is that one kid in primary school who we all thought was INCREDIBLY SMART but he was just Really prepared by people around him. At least that’s how modern fans see him someone who is/was on fraud watch
Personally I think that Gohan is the poster boy of unearned power ups. I don't have a problem with Gohan's power up in the Cell Saga since him having hidden potential was sorta the point of his character so I don't think there's an issue there. The problem starts in the Buu Saga where its established that Gohan has not only not been keeping up with his training but that he even became weaker than his kid self who fought Cell. And the way they fixed his lack of power wasn't to have him go through an insane training to make up for lost time and to force him to realize his mistake and the importance of keeping up with his training, instead they just GAVE him a huge power up that literally only required him to sit on his ass to get it. Years later when Freeza came back Gohan was SOOO out of shape that he was struggling to fight off Freeza's MINIONS. Later on Gohan did a bit of training with Piccolo and suddenly his power is on par with God Kii level fighters like Goku who HAS been training consistently for years. And now he gained another SSJ2 power up, how much did he train for that? Knowing Gohan's track record by this point I'm entirely convinced that he simply pulled a Goten and transformed completely by accident and just happened to get a new form...a form that Gohan should theoretically never have to turned into again since he has his Ultimate Form which should in theory be able to draw out all the power from that transformation without any drawbacks. The only way this new transformation can replace Ultimate is if it does everything the Ultimate form does but increases his power EVEN MORE than all his previous forms without any drawbacks.
I think that's kinda the point of Gohan's character in general. He'll always have the highest potential, and with that the easiest power ups. It's his natural disposition that makes him get weaker and on par, and even subpar, compared to the others. It's two extremes to level out his character.
That's the entire point of Gohan's character. He could easily be the strongest character in the series, if he wanted to be. His potential and rate of growth has always been off-the-charts, even in comparison to other Saiyans. It's not so ridiculous for me that he's able to come up to speed with the other characters after not training for awhile. Saiyans are gifted fighters by nature, and Gohan has been shown throughout the series to be an exceptionally gifted fighter. The juxtaposition here is that he doesn't care to hone his innate skill. He doesn't like fighting and has only done it when he had no choice. Not only that, but when he's been required to fight, he usually has to get stronger in a short amount of time, as is the pattern in Dragon Ball. This, coupled with his talent for growth (and the absurd power-scaling post-Cell saga) makes him look like an asspull, but I don't personally so. The dichotomy of his character is what makes him interesting to me. That said...Toriyama has done a terrible job with him (and really everyone not named Goku or Vegeta) for years now. Pretty much since Super started.
It was hinted in the movie that Gohan has been training. When he said he's been working on something of his own. And also preformed the special beam cannon. Piccolo said something like where did you learn that from? I forget what he says afterwards but he smiles, and piccolo turns his head in a way like "he's actually been training" Kinda like how frieza trained off screen but still he trained. The buu saga power can be debated. But the dbs gohan before t.o.p arc was not too long after the buu saga. I wouldn't say gohan was weak, but rusty. Kinda like how you take a rest week from the gym and come back. You'll be a little rusty but be stronger after a day or two of shaking of the rust.
Yeah exactly. It's like taking karate when your a kid the. 20 years later after being in no way training you some how match up with Bruce Lee after doing 20 sit ups .Very un eaerned
Love how you pointed out that after something was discovered once, it's easier to teach others how to replicate it. It's all around us. People once thought manipulating the power of electricity was impossible, and now it's a necessity in our everyday lives.
My problem with ultra instinct (UI) is that, as far as I know, Whis never states that UI will give its user a raw power boost - let alone a raw power boost as gargantuan as the one Goku received when he unlocked UI. Whis simply states that UI is a technique. And while I understand that, in the Dragon Ball universe, a technique can boost someone's fighting ability very significantly, it's still pretty clear in Dragon Ball Super that Goku receives an enormous raw power boost from UI, in addition to being able to dodge attacks unconciously like we expected.
Technique significantly increases the power output of the being that uses it, just ask any martial artists;) UI was one of the only powerups that is 100% earned, it is the culmination of literal decades of real world time of Goku training with the celestials
Mate getting Super Saiyan from a Tingly sensation is absolutely unacceptable, this means that every saiyan in the future regardless of their origin can just be told do the tingly thing and boom super saiyan without any effort even if they never experienced rage or life threatening events before. At least make them fight each other and make the disparity in power their motivation or something. Even babies can go Super Saiyan with the tingly sensation at this point.
Orange piccolo is EARNED, not just all that was described in the video, but the fact that Piccolo had trained just as hard as everyone else yet never gained a transformation, this was effectively a reward for his evolution as a person.
@@DrJareldah yes, goku achieving a form that gods haven't been able to achieve in millions of years in just 30 minutes is also earned. Broly going from base vegeta level to throwing hands with gogeta blue is also earned. Frieza going from blue level to leagues above ultra instinct and ultra ego just cause he found a random hyperbolic time chamber on a planet is also earned.
@@QuickDraw-e7k gokus UI has been explained. If you still think it’s unearned, you don’t pay attention. Broly makes perfect sense, he was shown to have potential. He was unstable. Frieza was SSJ lvl without training for a single day. Him training constantly for 10 years makes perfect sense. Piccolo hasn’t been shown to have potential, and he wasn’t very strong when he was born. There is no logical way he had that much potential
@@DrJareld potential in dragon ball is not static, the stronger you become naturally through training the more potential you grow. That’s what makes the potential unleashed transformation powerful, the multiplier can be increase through hard work making the power boost exponential as the base power is increase and thus the potential is increased
Why wouldn't Vegeta's rage boost be earned? It was earned by building a loving connection with a significant other, loving people is a weakness against antagonists but also the hero's strength. As it's a movie that is showing a time gap I believe it was awesome showing how much farther Vegeta has transitioned from quite a villainous character to a heroic one. Someone that wouldn't let the person that terrifies him the most lay even one hand on his wife without unleashing everything he has and more to protect her. 🎖️
Yeah, I was confused by that take. Vegeta very much earned that from a narrative perspective and it was actually nice to see after decades of him being perceived as the mostly selfish antihero of the story. He's past that point in his life by BoG and there's nothing wrong with us being shown that in one of the most memorable moments of that movie/arc.
Its also important to mention how vegeta has known beerus for so long, seeing him torture and torment his gather while he himself was powerless to do anything , something similar happening is just something he can't allow
This was vegeta facing an opponent that he was fearful of from the start, the need to defend his family and facing his fear makes it an earned power up.
I feel like Beast could've been explained a bit with Gohan "forcing" a rage boost, using what he has studied about nature and adrenaline boost, his Saiyan biology, the old kai ritual, and himself, all without changing the movie outside of a bit of dialogue after the final fight. It could've been a way to give him a form he made from what he wants to be, a scholar, unlike his predecessors who are primarily fighters/martial artists. They could've gone with the Kaioken Blue reason for not wanting to use it right away(it being VERY risky on the body if done improperly) if Piccolo asked why he didn't just use it immediately. That's just me though, I love Gohan living his life, but I feel like he should know how important it is to keep up with his dad and Vegeta, but I don't think having him sacrifice either is good. I think he is smart enough to be able to merge the 2 so he can do what he loves, while also still having the power to protect those he cares for, just like Goku, but in his own way!
Honestly I love the idea of adult Gohan getting stronger due to how smart he is vs just training and random asspull transformations. His studies of nature and biology could play into how he gets stronger, or just the fact that he fights with more strategy then most others.
I think the granolah arc transformations being unearned is akin to majin vegeta being unearned, where the whole subnarrative of the arc was about how everyone trying to cheat out new powerups and techniques isn't as effective as simply working hard towards their goals, which is what frieza did and ended up clearing house with everyone.
the worst part about the granola arc wish power ups is that it blatantly contradicts everything we know about the dragon balls up to that point. Dragon balls aren't supposed to be able to grant wishes like that, otherwise there'd be no point to any of the struggles anyone has faced up to that point if they could have just wished them away the entire time. When a fictional universe contradicts its own rules for the sake of drama, it becomes bs. They try to get around it by saying it's a different set of dragon balls, but that makes it even more bs. I'd be more okay with it if it were the super dragon balls granting that kind of wish since those are the original dragon balls with no rules, and the series is named after them after all. Maybe if they had an arc leading up to it where Granola spent time hunting down the super dragon balls across multiple universes or something it would have felt more earned
@@HopUpOutDaBed And that's the point it was making. See the argument would matter if the Dragon Balls when they granted the wish made Granolah a giga-badass, someone who can easily sidestep everyone while also getting stronger. It however doesn't do that, Granolah gets stronger and stronger... but Goku and Vegeta are the better fighters because of their honed experience from years of fighting and training which is kinda always how Dragon Ball played things. Hell, think back to the Raditz fight. Goku tells Raditz plainly that strength is nothing without skill and while Raditz is resilient? Dude is caught off-guard repeatedly by Goku and Piccolo employing strategy and is even shocked that energy can be charged into a single point.
My one thought with your take on Vegeta's rage boost against Beerus being unearned is that it could be considered thematic, in line with him progressing towards ultra ego.
this is how I feel as vegeta more than anyone has always been one the lack the ability to control his emotions which has held him back, so for that to be the very exact thing to boost him beyond his limits is almost too perfect tbh
Ultra Instinct is all earned. A lifelong journey of various teachers (Roshi, Popo & Kami, Korin, Whis). Teased at the beginning like it was meant to achieved by Goku.
Is there any proof of it actually being teased, besides being good at dodging? Come on... let's not start seeing what we think we should see, and let's have better judgment.
@@GeorgyQ Mr. Popo makes a comment that goes along the lines of "You're no good fighter. When a good fighter clashes with another, both of them move without thinking, they just let their instincts fight" Now, this doesn't mean Toriyama was planning ultra instinct since the original dragon ball. It's just that the concept already existed in the series (many times is shown and said that Goku flights through instinct alone) and Toriyama decided to turn it into a power up.
I'm so proud to see how much he has grown as a ytber from what if Goku was born with god ki to what if Goku and broly were sent to earth. God bless your Channel for many more years 🙏🏾
I think Vegeta's transformation makes sense because lets not forget he was training with Whis way before Goku on Beerus planet, even during training Whis mentions that he makes Vegeta's wrist weight lifting twice as much as Goku's was so its fair he got a power up during the tournament
Piccolo's power isn't really unearned. It's smart. He wished to have his true potential unlocked similar to how Guru did for Gohan and Krillin which Piccolo never had done for him. The power unlock that Shenron did was like uncapping a soda bottle ready to burst but not quite able to.
He actually got more than he asked for but Piccolo definitely deserved it. If you really think about it he was one of the 1st to actually sense Beerus's ki so he should've had a holy/god form to begin with. Especially since he fused with Kami...
@@Semi-Addict-Gamer I mean aren't they all. How do getting angry power you up x? Last I check all that does is give you an aneurysm so by default all of the ssj are unearned.
My personal take is that a new form should be a clumination of character progression. There can be other way to achieve this tan just training, but i think many of the power ups feels unearned because they dont tie into the character growth and therefore cannot reflect it.
Anyone else think that Goten & Trunks SSJ was unearned?? I mean the excuse of them having enough “S cells” was honestly just a gut punch to everyone that earned the Transformation through hard work
Excuse? Their fathers had unlocked super saiyan transformation at that point so it is not unearned at all cause that literally makes sense unlike kale aur caulifla.
Maybe it's "unearned", but it also wasn't particularly relevant anymore, By the time Goten and Trunks got basic Super Saiyan for free it had already been surpassed multiple times over. Who cares if the "toddlers" could hypothetically fight at Frieza's level when, we were now measuring how dangerous the new enemies are by comparing them to Cell. Super Saiyan was long since past being anything thing "special".
@@nayan.punekar So they just get the achievements of their parents for granted? How is that earned lol? They didn't do anything. Honestly, if people are going to claim that this is earned, then anything is earned.
You seemed to have missed the worst offenders. Goten and Trunks achieving super saiyan so so so young, and in relativity chill training sessions compared to all the saiyans before them had endured even at that young an age
I feel like ssgss and beast is the most hated because it came out of nowhere but when you look back at it they make sense sense ssgss is a power of a god but with the power of a super saiyan ontop while beast was obtained by rage and that is what a beast does he rages to get more powerful and it was a literal reference to the cell saga which was awesome in my opinion
i don't like beast because it's just randomly stronger than goku and vegeta, whom have trained with gods for years. what did gohan do? "secretly train", and get angry. self improvement is apparently nothing compared to having hybrid saiyan genes.
@@funkystickman99 true... I mean why didn't Gohan go beast against buu if he could just pull this form out of his ass? What about in resurrection f when piccolo died? And if you watch the film, gohan was still rusty even with his secret training because he struggled to go ultimate
This is where s cells come in they allow saiyans to transform faster and stronger the more they retain. They get when they're in times of peace or continuously relaxed, so I think that has something to do with gohan always getting stronger quickly. Also, gohan is generally a prodigy and has lots of potential, which we've already seen and heard throughout the series.
10:09 My view on SS Goten and Trunks, are, because their dads were already Super Sayans, mainly Goku using that form as base on Cell Saga, their genes helped them archieve it easily, plus they are not pure Sayans, which make them stronger than regular ones, Caulifla doesn't have SS parents I think, nor is a hybrid saiyan so.. that's why it's bothering in general when she's be able to archieve the super form so easily, it's unfair to be compared to the Goten and Trunks situation, it's unearned in the logical sense for me
Dude piccolos orange form is well earned the dude trains nonstop all the time when hes not helping everyone he deserves this new form unlike gohan who stopped training for while piccolos been constantly sharpening his skills
how old are you guys? 😅 I'm 34 now. Grew up with DB and DBZ. I can't get myself to watch that anymore. I was up to date with the DBZS manga 3 years ago but it really wasn't that great. The anime seems to have the same pacing issues as the OG run. I think the only way I'll ever get into Super is if they make a Kai remake 😆
@@bored9796 nah, Kai pacing is really good. Makes it addicting to watch. Super is better than the OG DBZ slog I remember but it still hardly competes with less series driven anime. A series following an endless manga will always suffer from this 😅
Although I can see this perspective if it’s easier as he stated gohan should’ve been able to achieve it much easier “it’s a response to a need not a desire” additionally it has also been officially stated that it’s easier for hybrid saiyans to tap into their saiyan origins making it easier for them to power up hence why goten and trunks have the ability to transform so although I get the effort of this point it is unfortunately invalid when you add that factor (not trying to be rude even tho that last part did come across)
@@PessiTheFraud Vegeta was not a super saiyan when Trunks was conceived. The tl goes with Vegeta and Bulma conceiving Trunks, Vegeta goes off to space to train, Trunks is born, then Vegeta comes back to fight the androids and is able to go super saiyan. And besides the whole able to go super saiyan so early because their parents were able to is pure conjecture as its never stated in the series nor by Toriyama himself. Now an explanation Toriyama did give which does explain how Goten and Trunks were able to transform are S-Cells which are cells all saiyans have and saiyans who are born with a more gentle nature or are raised in a peaceful environment, like all of the half saiyans and U6 Saiyans, have more initial s-cells. And the more s-cells a saiyan has, combined with a high enough battle power, the less of an emotional trigger is needed to go super saiyan.
@@Tormaline and? he still was super strong, as strong as final form frieza even, caulifla never trained her whole life and was competing with Goku, who had been training all his life, pure disrespect
@@Tormaline 100 bro that's exactly why I don't understand why people keep defending caulifla kale I understand as LSSJ but back tingle don't make sense and they try to justify it with goten and trunks even though theirs makes sense given their cells
Vegetas ssj2 rage isn’t bad considering it wasnt the final mail in beerus’ coffin, it was vegeta admitting that he cared more about his wife and family than his life, but this time it was right in front of them unlike his earlier sacrifice.
That is exactly what I feel about Gohan. Always super potential and he can catch up and erases the efforts of vegeta and goku like it was nothing. He doesn't even need to go through the same transformations.
@human3213 the problem is that Goku & Vegeta have been training with literal gods for years, and Gohan Beast who has barely been training for a year or two easily outclassed them
In my case, it mainly comes down to when a character learns something entirely off-screen, like Goku SSJ3, and Goku and Vegeta both getting Blue, and then in what we actually saw basically go "By the way, I can do this now." Super Saiyan, as well as SSJ2 for Gohan, were both built up for a long time before finally happening, while SSJ3 and Blue are not even hinted at until they appear. And as for the first God form, I feel that one's earned because it's literally the point of the entire movie.
I liked how in manga, 17 is closer to Goku SSJ3 level instead of blue and how it hinted that he became that strong thanks to the cell juniors that survived (he mentions that he tamed them to help him watch the park, which means he must have gotten strong enough to do it and maybe stronger than that as well).
I think Gohans Beast form could potentially be the perfect hybrid of Super Saiyan and Ultimate Gohan. Like he pushed past SSJ2 for the first time and some spark of Kai energy from the power unlock ritual was somehow incorporated into his SSJ3 changing it into the beast form
@@toniluna4597so is super Saiyan God for Goku. Beast is no more of an asspull than God. Honestly so is orange piccolo but if you consider that so is the power boost that Gohan and krillin got from Grand elder guru. That is all an asspull. Might as well count ultra ego as well because it's not like it was reaction. Vegeta was literally like, "Well guess I turn purple" dragon Ball has never been a series of well thought out things. So complaining about it now is just stupid. Just enjoy it for what it is or go watch something else if It bothers you so much
@@Alexanderthegreat159 So now no one can't criticize and discuss what they see and should just "go watch something else"? what kind of dumb childish logic is that? Also yes, it used to be a series well thought where all the characters power ups had a meaning and was early planned.
I can imagine yamcha getting a Power Up to at this point and I wouldnt even be mad. Akira Toriyama literally said he doesnt take Dragonball Super so serious anymore.
orange piccolo is definitely earned in my opinion, he fused with a warrior of namek who fought to his last breath in order to keep a tyrant from getting his wish and preserving the last of his people from dying, even though super kami guru and dende still died but got revived, and plus since nail was willing to give his own life and try a forbidden technique among namekians just to stop frieza, piccolo kind of gained nails willpower having him become more in tune with the fighting clan of the namekian race and also gaining some of nails personality in a small sense, after the battle with frieza he trained his mind and body in order to get stronger especially since goku wasnt there, and constantly did so throughout dragonball, later he assimilated with kami restoring him to his full strength which was probably cut in half at the time since he was just 1 half of a whole, he also gained some of kamis personality traits more wisdom and inherited the dragon clan part of him forming a sort of ying yang between the warrior and dragon clan of both namekians and honing both powers of each, piccolo later in super hero after years of having this power and possibly gaining some of kami an nails memories making him more knowledgeable of his own race, with the dragonballs he asked for his hidden potential to be unlocked and since shenron threw in that little bit extra it kinda seems like shenron knows how far hes come, so he threw in the long sought after power of every warrior namekian but only piccolo has proven himself to truly earn that power
Its not that he deserve it or not, which he totally does, because it is just stupid tbh, like why didnt he do it sooner? Piccolo doesnt seems like the type of guy to enjoy the thrill of training, he does it because it is necessary, so why didnt he do that back at the Top? It is an universal threat, sure, i can get behind all that, but the transformation doesnt have any logic or thought into it
I agree with the last one, added with the fact that it ruined the ultimate form, i think it would be better that rather than giving gohan a new form they instead gave him new techniques, allowing him to rely more on his intellect which basically represents his human side so having him use techniques to win his battles aligns more to his goals to evolve as a human
As for Gohan Beast… I would have loved it if it was acquired by Gohan Harnessing his resolve as a warrior & doing the unthinkable… combining SSJ2 with his Ultimate Form. Edit: Yes… I think that’s how it should have happened; Gohan accepting who & what he is by Combining His Ultimate Form & Super Sayian to protect everything he cares about.
I see Beast Gohan as the complete form of his Mystic Form. Cause Gohan was always teased to have this hidden power that only releases when he's enraged. Gohan was never enraged on his mystic form until Cell Max. So I think his Beast form was a mix of both.
@@incarnation_of_immortality3422 bro that ultimate transformation is a form that lets him allow use powers of his super Saiyan 1 and 2 . He is using his super Saiyan form but only without any flaws of those form like stamina and his blonde hair that's the whole premise of ultimate form
I'd say Vegeta's rage boost isn't unearned as it could be hinting that Gohan or Hybrids just gain rage boost more commonly. I swear Goku had similar sort of rage boosts when he lost his friends when he's younger.
He never did. Nobody but Gohan ever got real rage boosts, that is why Vegeta’s eage boost is out of nowhere and thus unearned. Imagine Vegeta just obliterating Cell after he killed Trunks. Back then, people didn’t get sudden rage boost out of nowhere just because they are little mad, that was an actual theme of Gohan and was part of his character
@@grydon6422 Gohan has more potent rage boost due to his hybrid potential but that doesn’t make them mainly exclusive to him. any saiyan if pushed past their emotions limit can use them too under the right circumstances. I know what your saying but Gohan’s rage boost are more like his inner potential being drawn out through rage so you won’t see many boost as insane as his, but it doesn’t mean other saiyans are exscluded from getting strong rage boost Vegeta vs cell (post trunks death) Vegeta vs Beerus (post Bulma slap) Trunks unlocking ssj rage (random but resulted from zamasu explaining the destruction of his future caused by the domino effect of his time traveling) Goku vs black and zamasu (hearing about future chichi’s death) Goku fighting Jiren (Jiren firing at his friends/family in the stands)
@@Mystic_Magirano I would argue that Vegeta vs Cell wasnt really a "rage boost". It was just a realisation that for the first time in his life, he actually cared for someone and was willing to die for them. With Gohan, his "rage boost" through DBZ was his anger taking over his emotions and his true powers being released. He would lose control and dominate. The problem was, he always held back and was afraid of killing, which is why he seemed weak usually. It wasn't until Perfect Cell killed Android 16 when he realised for the first time "killing is the only option" and he gained control of his power.
7:47 The problem with Frieza only needing to train for Four Months to reach his Golden Form is not only Worse when you consider Frieza's History, Namely him creating Transformations to WEAKEN himself as he couldn't control his immense power meaning he should have needed to master those Forms he created First, It also makes Frieza an unbeatable threat. If he can improve that much in 4 Months then there is no stopping him if he continues a that pace.
yeah, he trained for 10 years and unlocked the black form which makes him basically the strongest in the universe, one shotting Goku and Vegeta in their mastered ultra forms, and he was as strong as the Gods of destruction. But in my opinion it's good, Frieza was born a prodigy with insane power without having to train his whole life, he was doing beerus' job for him with 0 effort, seeing him try to catch up to Goku and Vegeta is good character development especially considering that he used to think training was for the weak, and him reaching that level of power just makes sense. Also, Frieza stopped transforming and stayed at his first form which is the strongest and was comfortable living with it, so he did master his strongest form overtime, the other forms are weaker and he doesn't need them anymore.
If I recall correctly, Dende upgraded the Dragon Balls. Shenron might be Piccolo's dragon (or Kamiccolo's, if you want) which would validate the point that it's his own power being used on himself, but, although it might not interfere in the idea of the power-up being earned or not, it definitely makes sense to have one of the forms as his own potential being unlocked by himself (yellow, probably) and the other as an effect of Dende's power (orange form) which Shenron refers to as a gift.
@Carly Crays that is not what earned means.. Yes we all wanted Piccolo to be relevant and get a power up to keep up with the others because he has been growing in the past and been relevant before, but that doesn’t mean every power up he does get is automatically ”earned”. His power up was absolutely not earned. This series has been going on for years and during multiple life threatning situations, it never dawned on Piccolo that he could just ask the Dragon to bring out his potential to be relevant? And the same could (and should) be done to every character if the Dragon is able to so that. But now suddenly Dende is just able to ”upgrade the Dragon suddenly and Shenron not only gives a free potential unlock for Piccolo out of nowhere, but also gives him an entirely new form out of nowhere when *absolutely nothing* ever in the series has implied namekians have any sort of transformations. Even though I’m happy Piccolo can be relevant again, you are coping hard if you think this is earned lmao
Dende probably added some God Ki into it. Which would make Yellow/Orange Piccolo SSG or SSB level. Honestly, it would make a lot more sense if Piccolo became like some sort of Dragon King or something like that.
@@grydon6422ou could also say that about other forms in dragon ball, UI shouldn't be a form, whis never implied that it's a form, Same with UE does that mean they shouldn't exist as transformations? No. The transformations just represent their current state of being. Piccolo earned this transformation by returning to his old self entirely, which was done by the dragon giving back to him after all he gave to it, dende just upgraded the dragon to do the technique that's all. Unlocking your potential just unlocks the power you already had, and considering all piccolo does is train, it doesn't make sense as to why he's so incredibly underpowered. His power stagnated for no real reason, and piccolo is one of the only characters who has not gotten a potential unlock in the slightest, all of that combined with his talent and diligence. This makes an earned power up. That's not cope that's just the truth.
Another important thing to keep in mind with piccolo is that when he gets his potential unlocked by shenron it is after he is the combined form of piccolo, kami, and nail. on top of everything already established, you could make the case its the multiplied power of all of their potential being unlocked. Even if they become a single individual after fusing they all lived individual lives before that which would add to the amount of potential piccolo could have unlocked.
Don't forget that before fusing with Piccolo, Nail had a power level of over 40,000. Which means he could have soloed base form Vegeta, and even taken out several of the Ginyu Force, as the captain states a power of 60,000 would have been needed to solo them all. He was also able to somehow sense that had Piccolo fused with Kami before coming to Namek, he would have been powerful enough to defeat Frieza on his own. Which seemed to be the case, as during the Cell saga, them fusing was strong enough to fight evenly with 17, after he manhandled Super Saiyan Trunks.
Shanron was destroyed by king piccolo back on DB. Doesn't make a ton of sense for him to be able to grant power levels literally millions of times his own.
@@calculator91 He can do it in the same way that Guru can. He unlocks the potential laying dormant within them. When Granola wishes to be the strongest fighter in the universe, the dragon says that he can do it, but at the cost of almost the entirety of Granola's life span. Now he's only got 3 years left to live.
For me the Vegeta rage boost from Beerus was more his fear stopping him, but as well it might have been Beerus just testing the waters, as with his fight with Goku later on, where its revealed he was still holding back. I think there is a lot more going on in Vegetas mind than we all see and it kinda culminates in the later arcs of Super with Ultra Ego.
While Ultimate Gohan in DBS isn't unearned, it's still pretty cheap that in one day of training with that form, he got in the same level as Super Saiyan Blue, just like Super Saiyan Rage.
To be fair, during the xeno expo he said he was stronger than ever, but only ever used regular super Saiyan. When you keep that in mind it makes more sense. Ultimate Gohan was stronger than Goku’s SS3, so the gap in power between Super Saiyan and the potential unlock should be massive.
@@SolracDude But it's not like his base form is on par with Goku at that time right? I don't think 1-2 years of training would get him as far as Goku's at that time.
@@MinhLe19303 that is basically the golden frieza problem. Characters need to train to get stronger, but they essentially never have enough time for training alone to be a believable explanation. This isn’t really new, during the cell saga the 1 year in the chamber is somehow more effective than the 3 year time skip. Saiyan saga tells us that in 1 year Piccolo got 10x stronger and he’s not the only one, which conflicts with the 3 years of training everyone always did before the tournaments. It’s either power scaling is meaningless because everyone is always multiplying their strength 10 fold every year, or we just accept that the plot determines when training actually accomplishes anything or not.
I feel like with ultimate Gohan it's totally unearned, but I like it narratively, building up the threat of buu, even with this new fancy power up, they still lost, the buu saga's greatest strength is continuing to raise the stakes, making it almost feel like a Kaiju movie.
@@10CentWenty he said Ulti Gohan, not Beast Gohan. Ulti Gohan is literally the next saga after one of the biggest powerups in the series, ALSO being his.
@@10CentWenty I don't count "it's about time" as "earned" if it's not an in-universe reason then it's inherently narratively flawed. Toriyama handjobs all over the place.
2:43 power they've always had has a direct parallel to adrenaline and the human body using much less of it's full muscular potential. The body limits itself because it knows if it didn't it would rip itself apart. But we skirt so far under the line of potential damage that using the full potential and actually coming to meet the line would be a massive boost. Not crossing into the realm of dangerous, but actually finding that line and standing on the razors edge so to speak.
7:55 i mean, you said Piccolo going to 3500 to 100 thousand in power level is bullshit, even if he trained for it. Freeza going to Golden Freeza which is at least hundreds of thousands of times stronger than his Final form. should be bullshit too. shouldn't it?
What unearned power ups do to a series if they could be used at an optimal time: Remember, guru potential unlock was a 10x+ multiplier depending who it was used on. Someone like Gohan had more potential and thus a higher multiplier. Also remember Gohan in the Buu saga was similar or weaker than himself during cell saga. Goku and Vegeta seemingly exceeded Gohan. Throw in ssj3 which is a 400x multiplier as opposed to ssj2's 100x. Gohan getting his ultimate form seemingly pushed him above Goku in ssj3. If we're being very conservative that's a 5-6 times increase in power. So what is my point here is if right now at this moment Goku somehow got his potential unlocked and then the ultimate form he would potentially be 50+ times stronger than before. Goku has become significantly stronger since the TOP. Just imagine a 50x multiplier. It would make him 50x+ stronger than Belmod. What about Beerus? Beerus may be the strongest GoD. But is he 50 times stronger than Belmod? That's basically destroying Belmod with one light attack. If Beerus had that kind of power would any other GoD even attempt to antagonize him? Probably not. But welcome to the wacky world of broken power scaling. I'm looking forward to this video.
2:35 Hear me out Gohan and Krillin show up to Namek with similar intentions as all the villains, Use the Dragon Ball. However the Villain kill everyone that gets in their way, and even kill those they don't have too because of how evil they are all to get a selfish wish. Gohan and Krillin come with kindness, they ask for the Dragon Ball, they risk their lives to protect a child Namekian. Not only that, but their wish they were planning to ask was one to being back their fallen friends. It is because they have the compassion that the villains lack is why they are given the power they need to survive. I don't not have any original thoughts, just watch Dragon Ball Dissection alot
10:12 I kinda liked the way that Cabba’s universe discovered super saiyan. They made it pretty clear that most of the saiyans (excluding Kaulifla and her sect) a bit more of a calmer, and contemplative culture. So to have a more diagnostic and technical way of discovering SSJ makes sense to me.
It's not only about God level. It's about how characters are all of a sudden able to skip SSJ 3 and jump straight to a new form that didn't exist or no one reached before as if the Z fighters never trained hard in DBZ to reach newer heights
People act like just because Caulifla didn't have a 200 episode training arc means she has never trained in her life. She earned the form by training her entire life. She already LONG since surpassed the minimum power level to become a Super Saiyan. And when you consider the Universe 6 Saiyans are a peaceful race, they would have gained more than enough S-Cells to transform. The only thing they needed was to know HOW, to know that it was even possible in the first place. Caulifa being able to easily replicate it mirrors that of her Universe 7 counterpart in Goku, who has shown repeatedly the ability to learn things after seeing them once. Both narratively and training wise it is earned, even more so than Goten and Trunks which was only earned through inherited nepotism and was narratively a gag.
The back tingle is and will always be bs. You don't need 200 episodes cabba literally did it in one episode and I never seen anyone complain that he got ssj. And what's this about minimum required power level? If that was the case Broly would have got it without the need of his father dying even if he lived in a hostile environment. And you saying it's earned but she immediately went ssj2 not long after. Cabba had to struggle for it
She trained all her life yet she’s never gotten slightly angry? Cabba got upset at a half baked threat and immediately unlocked the form. The idea that no saiyan in universe 6 has ever hit the unbelievably low threshold that it takes to become SSJ is ridiculous.
@@Simpnamedslickback brother if you were a Saiyan you'd have unlocked it right now, because holy crap what is with this aggression. Calm down, Jesus Christ.
This is why I still love Yu-Yu Hakusho's extremely slow power scaling and finality. You go from barely stronger from a street thug, and it just builds up slowly over time, the characters being super lucky but incompetant, and than getting more skill with their techniques over time. Sometimes they use a mcguffin to boost their power, but they eventually master it and it's really satisfying.
Yyh still copies what db does with making the pure human fighter look mostly worthless, not really doing anything with them and having the fights be about just power.
@@stevemclovin1566I'll admit I've only read until a bit after the Dark Tournament arc. So if this changes after that I stand corrected. But one thing I respect about Yu Yu Hakusho until then is the fact that they DIDN'T do this. Yusuke’s whole crew mattered and had a chance to shine. Well, except Boton, but she's a non fighter like Keiko. Even Kuwabara who looked like he would just be a joke character had his moments in the series. I wish Dragon Ball and a few other Shonen followed this example. Would have been great if Goku’s crew had stayed relevant.
@@stevemclovin1566 I think it was actually what made the series better. He wasn't able to keep up with the descendant of the mazoku, the ancient fox and the demon that survived the jigan because quite frankly, he shouldn't. He's just a spiritually gifted ordinary human. That didn't stop him from still being narratively useful. In the anime's last arc when some of the other demons somewhat caught up with the help of genkai's training, that was the actual bad writing part. And even then, they at least still made ryzen's friends hard stomp them.
The thing about the universe 6 saiyans is the writters could've found another way to unlock it that worked with their motivations. I don't mind it being done quickly, but that was also a chance to establish characters and push them in a meaningful way.
What power up is the most unearned? Let me know! Also leave a like on the video :)
@invincible4u seriously how is pure rage as powerful as the power of a god with ssj on top💀
SSB. Literally popped up with no build up and no climax whatsoever. The way they presented it was like a 12 year old minecraft youtuber "did some mining" offscreen
dragon ball makes no sense
Aside from the ones mentioned above, i'd also give it to Vegeta's ssj4 in GT.
@@saulicereza it's just a common Vegeta thing he always gets his forms off camera
If you read the manga, Ultra Instinct is not only Whis. It's the culmination of his training with Roshi, Korin, and Whis. So its even more earned.
Yes !!
True! This is even more evident if you watch SS4 Goku's fight with Omega Shenron. Although this was many years before Ultra Instinct would become a thing, he does show mastery over being able to make his body react on its body. So this has been foreshadowed for years
Not to mention Popo and Kami, who both also taught him more about how many wasted movements he was making.
Exactly, Ultra Instinct is like the culmination of all his Martial Arts training
True, but the way Goku just forgets about his martial arts prowess and only uses raw power, with Jiren comparing him to the most brain dead character in the tournament (Berserk Kale) was character assassination at its finest
I think many people confuse "unearned" with "unsatisfying". Golden Frieza is the perfect example, because he literally trained for it, but suddenly seeing a Frieza who's now golden as a result of offscreen training, yeah, it felt very anticlimatic, which is exactly the problem people tend to have.
I liked Golden Frieza reveal but Black Frieza was anticlimatic as hell. Like he shows up end of arc announces he is now black beats everyone up then leaves. Like my brain is just ??? It felt surreal
The explanation was quite unbelievable. Id say SSG Blue is unsatisfying though.
Frieza trained for four months off-screen and you claim thats, unsatisfying. Reaching a power similar to Goku and above Majin Buu with literally no reason or anything to show for it.
@@Chrisdish frieza was the second strongest non demon in the universe for years without an ounce of training. He was so strong he had direct contact with the god ofdestruction. It does make sense that after a short albeit probably intense training he would get so strong.
Also remember he wasnt equal to blue at the time, he got curb stomped
@@sul_9999 I thought golden frieza was equal or superior to blue like how he beat Goku the first few seconds but the problem was he didn’t train properly to maintain it so his power wasn’t as great as he transformed the first few seconds whereas Saiyans with their zenkai slowly increase ( it’s also said that their zenkai power up stopped and maxed out during the black arc )
I feel like Orange Piccolo is a unique case, in that while it’s “unearned”, it’s absolutely deserved. He’s had a couple big power jumps in the series, primarily fusing with Nail and Kami, but he’s essentially had nothing since the Cell saga.
TLDR: Big Green deserves his Vitamin C.
Needed a ritual to make sense,/earned instead of shenron just giving it to him, makes the transformation more foreshadowed/hyped
@@noahmpinto14because he is a namekian it makes sense that he got it from dragon balls 💀
Same thing for Rage Trunks, imo
It didn't involve effort, but given Trunks' years of struggling in the future, it was more than earned. Thematically earned.
@@redlem00ns73 Shenron isn't stronger than Piccolo though, he can't just slap on some extra power, he shouldn't be able to do that
It would’ve been better had it been earned. Yeah he deserves it but he also deserves the respect of having good writing and some thought put into his power boost. This was really just some bs to have him “equal” to Goku and Vegeta which cheapens it even more imo
Forgot to mention Master Roshi somehow quietly increasing in power dramatically through "offscreen training" after living hundreds of years and not even getting to a point of being worth mentioning at the start of Z, to the point that he can suddenly hold his own next to the other human Z fighters in the ToP.
I don't think it was strength that he built up. In the tournament of power or w.e. it was he was using intelligent techniques and not so much grappling strength. Think of bobbidy, his strength was weak but his "moves" were superior.
@@emmanuelgutierrez8616 No, while Goku was out scouting for the ToP, there was a scene where Roshi was mind controlled and was able to fight off Tien and even had a brief fight with base form Goku where he remarked Roshi must've been training because he had gotten a lot stronger than he used to be.
we definitely needed better explanations rather than just "training". Frieza is unsatisfying but whatever, he had a lot of room for story around him.
Can't quite do the same with the Z-fighters who spent decades each honing their skills. Goku/Vegeta can justify it by goig with Beerus/Whis, but everyone else needed *something*. Maybe Piccolo meets another universe's Namek that got to train for decades due to Frieza not invading. Gohan could have found some off screen masters like how Goku did when he learned Instant Transmission. IDK what you'd do with 17/18, but you can say some mixture of Bulma tech and traning for their biological sides can boost them up. Maybe a hot take, but maybe Roshi/Krillin/Tien could learn to wield and control God Ki to explain their power ups and train with that. Not like they using it for anyone else outside of explaining SSG.
As another hot take, I think it's fine to powercreep people for an arc when the story wants to focus on other characters. Sucks for fan favorites like Tien, but even a franchise as big as DB can only do so much in every arc.
@@raze2012_ it sucks cuz the way they go about making them stronger is to increase their raw power. Wish they did stuff like HxH where they refine their techniques and actual ki control. all DBZ and DBS does is try to push strength and their ability to survive explosions or tank a punch.
I kinda disagree about Roshi. I liked the approach to him taken in Super.
1) Roshi's character had always been about intelligent fighting and misdirection as much as strength. Half the point of the character is to demonstrate that power level measurements, punch measuring machines, and other "objective" power scaling comparisons are BS. It isn't about the power, it is about the application.
2) Roshi at the beginning of DBZ wasn't at an irrelevant level of combat ability. He was retired. He was as capable as any of the human fighters that stood up against Nappa. He wasn't there because he was trusting the next generation to defend Earth.
3) In the actual ToP, just about every fighter but Roshi was fighting an endurance battle trying to save energy for a 48 minute battle. But, Roshi wasn't. The was using his own life force in techniques that were as dangerous to himself as his opponents. If he hadn't been knocked out of the tourney, he would never have survived to the end, even if he won every fight. That level of "putting it all on the table" can make a lot of difference.
For me, the issue isn't a transformation being unearned; it's that there are too many transformations. At this point I just want strategy and technique rather than a new color
Fr, dragon ball has been basically "oh no I am losing due to being overpowered, activate transformation/fusion/new hidden power"
@@mmems30 it really do be feeling like that lately
@@drewboden6981 I mean i feel like recently besides like beast that's not really too much of the case? UI is still relevant and while tui can be considered a new transformation it's basically goku mastering UI like the Saiyans did ssj into the different grades. Piccolo never really had a transformation plus it being linked to shenron feels nice. Ego is kinda in the same spot as UI currently with vegeta not having as much mastery as he could. It's still transformation heavy but the actual transformations have to be explored more than just i mastered it off screen and need to get a new form to do anything. It really depends where they go from here. So much is in the air they could actually diversify or just stay stuck in "i need more color" hell. I'm hoping black frieza doesn't lead to a new transformation.
Vegeta actually gets this in the Moro arc. He learns to fine-tune his ki and go beyond just using up-front brute strength. He literally has an arc on honing his existing skillset and learning skills he once despised.
@@drewboden6981lmao that’s how it’s always been….: dragon ball used to be martial arts, now it’s just power up more if you’re losing and all of a sudden you’re kicking butt
I like it imagine that the reason why Piccolo become so strong after getting his potential unlocked is because in addition to Shenron's Bonus, since Piccolo is fused with Kami and Nail, all three of them got their potential unlocked, thus adding up to a massive boost.
That is how I understood it as well. That and Shenron is literally his baby (Kami and Piccolo being considered as one now) so it stands to reason he would gimmick the system a bit in Piccolos favor.
Piccolo also always had the highest fighting IQ of any of the Z warriors, so it makes sense that he'd be crazy strong if his power level ever caught up.
@@gantz332 honestly tho, who gives a fxck?? I came here to see awesome fights, awesome animations, and new forms, who cares if it's earned, and honestly it is earned, Gohan and piccolo haven't done shxt in years, "it's about dxmn time"
@@gantz332 Nuh-uh
@@gantz332true
Wasn't Gohan's "ultimate" form supposed to represent Gohan's power at his peak? Elder Kai even stated during the Buu saga that it'd remove any need for further transformations, Gohan could be trying to enter SS1, SS2, SS3, or even "beast mode" and he'd look no different, the only constant being the clear aura around him.
yes . but bro it nothing more than producers wanting to sell more toys and all and make more money .toriyama had already finished all character arcs or everyone at the end of the z only younger once like goten , uub were left as character to develop by toriyama at the end of z
After Buu Saga and with super episodes before Tournament Power Ultimate form become just another transformation. Remember, when he fought Goku Blue and had whole this reverse transformation going from SSJ yellow to black base form aka Ulitmate
i think from what i learned is that the Ultimate form is represent of gohans power at his peak,Or using his full potential but the ultimate form didnt use his rage potential, the beast form is supposed to release not only his full potential but his rage potential
@@TheRetifox its not really a transformation when gohan has to charge up like that it represents he hasn't been using it and it has gotten rusty as potential unleashed requires training to fully keep up which gohan hasn't been doing much of he could stack ssj on it but he doesn't because of his current goals and he deems no reason to.
It was a forced add on so tori pretty much randomly made it up. I agree the old kai explanation was much better and made gohan feel cooler, beast just feels empty and unneeded….. and the name is stupid and doesn’t fit.
The thing is with caulfla is that she gained ssj after just seeing cabba but goten and trunks were RAISED by supersaiyans Vegeta and Gohan
U6 Saiyans naturally have a much higher base power level than u7 Saiyans. Their base power level is higher than when Goku first became a super Saiyan, they just didn't know how to use it.
@@willtherealrustyschacklefo3812 so universe 6 kid saiyans are stronger than namek freeza? Noted
@@shift-_-xy4475yes
except they weren't raised to use super saiyan. at all, proof being, they were surprised by it. Caulifla had cabba who had gotten a lesson from Vegeta, and yeah like he said. once something is discovered, the more people unlock it the easier it becomes because you narrow down what to do
@@Echo-pz5mi Plus, Vegeta had years of experience with the Super Saiyan form, so he'd impart the knowledge on the best way to achieve the Super Saiyan state because even if they're not from his universe, he's still the prince of ALL Saiyans
My issue with Caulifla is less the way she transformed, and more that it just shouldn't have mattered that she did. The gap in base power and skill was just too huge.
Exactly. Honestly God Goku should have been the hard stop on both Kale and Caulifla.
@@LordChromeGamingnah dude base goku should have been able to one shot both of them and then ss2 should have one shot Kefla. Because in the anime at least goku absorbed god ki into his base meaning that base top goku should be a bit higher than battle of gods ssg goku and i refuse to believe that they somehow surpassed ssb levels of power despite the fact they were on the same level as cabba before fusing. Kale I can kinda understand but she should not be anywhere near ssb level and caulifla should not have even been able to scratch base goku
@@Monkeylighthouse I was trying to be fair to the Kefla fans lol
@@LordChromeGamingnahh man 0 x 20 is still 0. Let them know
@@dustinlewis49480 x 20 is 0 lmao
Piccolo was criminally under developed, and deserved his boost. He’s a main character and they treat him like a sideman. Looking forward to seeing more of him and this incredible DESERVED!!! Awakening. (Hate the name tho, “orange piccolo” terrible lol)
Should have been a mystical ritual with shenron instead of shenron just giving him that powerup, make the transformation more foreshadowed/hyped
@@noahmpinto14 What kind of mystical ritual?
@@hitrule5722 Something more than Piccolo one day deciding to ask dende to upgrade the dragon balls and asking Shenron to unlock his potential.
Piccolo is part of the main cast, but is more of a supporting character than a main protagonist like Goku. I would even say Vegeta is a main protagonist, but since everyone likes Vegeta he gets the cool toys
How about, he Needs to sacrifice the Earths Dragon forever including a Spell coming from it, that no other Namekian can Create Dragonballs on Earth again.
Then again this would need to be Pushed with a Very good and Hopeless Story for them. Not this Grew Minion stuff, making Androids as strong as them.
Whats the Point in all this? Just have Mini Grew make 1000000 of these Androids. Could beat anything.
The problem is that all the "training" happens off screen. We're not given any information on what that training entails other than some vague notion of increasing one's power level. We also never get see the effort and the pay off afterwards. The problem isn't unearned powerups, the problem is that these powerups are poorly justified. And then the fact that these powerups often become worthless after the villain is defeated because the next villain is going to be too powerful for that power-up. So it often invalidates the the entire point of getting stronger because they'll never be strong enough for that strength to mean something narratively.
But that happened since the start of dbz no? kaioken was used in one fight, then powercrept, then ssj same, ssj2, ssj3 didn't even get to do much because buu is so broken and they love ending the series with a genki dama, saiyan god red didn't even get out of the movie, same with blue, after golden freezer blue was just loosing everywhere, I would like the explanation for the forms too, but most of the times is just they got stronger, or felt a really strong emotion
@@asoret Yeah you've highlighted the exact problem with power scaling in anime. When you keep introducing new and stronger forms, the other forms become functionally useless. Why waste your time powering up super saiyan when you can just go to straight to super saiyan god? And it's not like the forms all have special powers or techniques unique to that form. Nope it's just the same guy powering up.
@@bananamerchant6387 I wish they at least gave more fights to each form, and not just being useless as a warm up, because they lazy to transform into their most powerful form directly, or at least some advantages or disadvantages of why using one or another, they only did something like that with ssj3 leaving room for ssj2, and something in the super manga with red and blue but still, now goku can't do anything without ultra instinct
Yeah, the issue is narrative framing at the end of the day. You don't NEED every villian to be stronger, but the way DB does arcs makes it always need to one up itself.
One Punch Man is a perfect example on how to manage this. Saitama can beat anyone when he's there, but for various reasons he can't always be there. That's what lets other fighters shine, even if they aren't Saitama level. DB could use some more "b plots" to let characters grow without necessarily needing to catch up to whatever menace Goku/Vegeta is facing.
It also doesn't help in beast's situation because looking at Goku and Vegeta's training, how the hell did Gohan even replicate what they did to even get to blue let alone UI when they were trained by literal gods.
Beast was made for Gohan fanboys. Training off screen is just boring
How is Roshi not included here? He had a power level of 150 in the beginning of Z as a 100+ year old man who spent his whole life pursuing Marshall arts, then somehow becomes millions of times more powerful within a few years or perhaps months? Ain't no way.
I mean at the same time he never encountered other worldly godly strong beings from other worlds u can only get so strong from being on earth as a human😊
Cmom, roshi from Top Dbs could solo all the sayans and frieza saga.perhaps even celll, that shit doesnt make ant sense 😂 @@imthatjay8477
To be fair, Roshi had much longer to gain that strength than every other character. He wasn't involved in any of the arcs between Raditz and Goku Black. It feels unearned, but it is still understandable. He is still by far the weakest member of the team, even though he is by far the most skilled. 20ish years of training to be the weakest member of the team demonstrates that most characters have limited potential relative to the heavy hitters, and Vegeta is openly worried about Roshi joining the team.
@@benrockefeller6334It gets more insane in the manga where he gets to dance with jiren, like he is dodging like ultra instinct with the huge power gap
Ehh I think since the start of DragonBall he had been more pursing booba then martial arts. And thematically Super brings that back home exactly, with him overcoming his biggest weakness. Plus his value was to be there to not have the stronger Z-fighters waste power on weaker participants, he wasn't overpowering anyone major.
Honestly to me personally, Piccolo's power up felt like a thing that was a long time coming. I understand why people think it's unearned narratively, but It feels like the character totally deserves it because of the place that he's earned in with the fans. Like if Tien suddenly got a random power up, I wouldn't be mad at all. His character totally deserves to step up and feel important again.
That and he literally does nothing but train everyday.
@@Sigismund-von-Luxembourgtrue, plus the fact that its the manifestation of the dragon that he created when he was originally kami makes sense. The fact that there was still a part of Kami, of the original power they once held, a power that could have made them invincible, makes sense.
They could expand their universe much in the way Marvel has done and oscillate between being an adventure series and an action one. Like they could easily have adventures of Tien and Gohan that I'll gladly watch. Even for events that have long since passed, like how Tien got strong enough to tribeam the living daylights out of cell. I wouldn't mind a series covering that time skip at all! Or an alternative universe with everything the same except where Gohan kept training 🙏🙏🙏. It's cool that the story is progressing forward, but they could certainly give it more depth and expand the universe
Exactly my thoughts, Piccolo trains constantly both physically and mentally and has also grown a huge amount emotionally from his origins. A lot of his other power ups were from his origin as part of Kami or from being a Namekian, all very narrative and fitting, but I think Piccolo just getting a power up regardless of source feels absolutely earned by now just on his own personal merits as a person.
@@michaellarose4913 Honestly a lot of people got salty about Piccolo being able to beat Ultimate Gohan but I saw it as Piccolo should of already been at Buu level during that arc since he literally never stops training. But I also think Tien should be around SSG Blue level for the same reasons. Both of those guys basically train non stop 24/7
The Vegeta rage boost against Beerus serves the purpose of showing how Vegeta had changed to a loving husband now. It also didn't last long enough for it to be too overpowered, which makes me feel it was justified
correct me if I am wrong but I feel Vegeta also got a rage boost against Super Perfect Cell in response to future trunk's death. It was just unmatched to Cell's power it looked as if nothing had changed. The same could b said with Beerus, like Cell there was no damage done. The only difference was Beerus got ragdolled more than Cell
@@InboundYT Beerus wasn't exactly bringing his a-game against Vegeta in that situation
@@InfernosReaper While I don't necessarily disagree, it's still Vegeta squaring up against the God of Destruction and *drawing blood.*
No it's an asspull
To me at least, Vegeta's rage boost vs Beerus was earned when looking at both a story and power perspective. In the story, Vegeta learned to care for his family, even throwing hands with Beerus because he ruined her Birthday Party. It even makes sense for a power perspective as Vegeta never thought of getting SSJ3 instead pushing his body using his preexisting toolkit and was rewarded by surpassing Goku
I actually think it wasn't earn until he showed he cared for his family's wellbeing more than for his pride, when he humiliates himself to entertain Beerus, it was the true show of what matters to him, so a rage boost there, feels great
It is not earned because Nobody jut Gohan ever got rage boosts like that, not even Goku. Caring about one’s family has nothing to do with it, not everyone has that hidden potential inside them to unleash when enraged.
In Z, those rage boosts where a plot point for Gohan, a special attribute to him, it meant something. Now everyone and their mother gets a magical power boost just from being angry and it can be used to cheese any fight at any point if the plot so desires. Imagine Vegeta just obliterating Super Perfect Cell after getting in a enraged state after Trunks was killed. It was a meaningful moment for Vegeta and his character development, but that doesn’t mean he deserved a sudden power boost from nothing to defeat the enemy. He was not strong enough to beat Cell, period. And that is how it should be.
nah
I agree, it fit into the story and it really was just a temporary boost… got his ass whooped after 30s.
@@grydon6422 I have one gripe with this comment. Beerus takes everything Vegeta had like nothing happened and proceeded to one tap him.
10:45 nice shot of Kefla there.
😂
Whether a power-up is earned or not, they can always train it and make it their own.
True. But that's the problem. That'll never happened hence why it's unearned not to mention some power ups are technically impossible to achieve anyhow without hacks so to speak. Shenron boosting piccolo was definitely a hax power up. In Gohan's case it's always due to potential this potential that but really at the end of the day it's just convenient plot power. He hardly ever had to train to gain those huge boosts.
@@azuredream9032 piccolo is good he's connected to the dragon
@@azuredream9032 Gohan honestly could’ve been *THE* Ace for team 7 in the tournament of power if he kept up his training nevermind the fact that the super saiyan god ritual could’ve easily have been repeated for every saiyan and would’ve been a permanent buff to his power If necessary
@@dayvonlouis5187 like carthu mentioned gohan had been training for like two years
@@dayvonlouis5187 If he kept up his training yes i agree with u. He definitely could've been the strongest at the top and without the typical "he has the potential" convenient plot power all the time.
Idk if ultra ego would be considered earned or not but honestly it’s hella interesting. It’s like a berserker class in an rpg. The more damage you receive the more you dish out. Seeing vegeta eyebrowless and talkin trash to granolah to taunt him while eating his attacks was so cool and different than any other form
The Providence with that technique is that is completely unsustainable by design.
yea he also got his ass kicked in the same form
Yes and it is utterly irrelevant like what, 2-3 chapters after its introduction? Only for goku to revert to a lower level form and said its stronger?
@@HieuLe-fi2ri precisely. Super is a joke 💀
I love that it's the exact opposite of ultra instinct, unstoppable force vs. immovable object, all coming down to which one slips up or gets tired first
I think an even bigger issue I have with beast gohan being "unearned" is that the whole set up to it didn't feel like it had any weight, this is also a problem I had with SSB. It just didn't feel like a "Oh man shit's going down" situation like in the example of SSJ, 2, and 3
@@Judaisan367that's a good point
@@Judaisan367fair point
For the first super Saiyan, Vegeta kept hyping up the legend for so many episodes, and Goku's power jumps hinted that he might have finally done it but we could never tell. Then he turned Golden only after he got angry from his friends deaths, and Saiyan's are a warrior race so are known for pride and anger and revenge. It made sense.
The second one also had a climb to get to it. They each trained in the hyperbolic time chamber, and each ascended past the first level but to an incomplete bulky one. Goku tells Gohan to stay in super Saiyan form so they can get used to it, and so it feels like there's an actual logic and work that needs to be put in. Then Gohan passes everyone up and finally unlocks his real potential and it feels satisfying, especially that cell was like the 10th android they fought.
Super Saiyan three was the most random but we at least get told that Goku has been training with basically Gods that have been training for millennium, and he even battles ss2 Vegeta beforehand so we know they haven't been sitting around. And even after all this ss3 was sort of incomplete because Goku could only maintain it for a limited amount of time.
The God form is when it starts getting dumb. Why would many regular Saiyan's combine to make a God? Where did the godness come from? I'm still not even sure what Blue is, they just turned blue one day.
Ultra instinct makes sense I guess, I'm just not a fan of the animation is super. Except the Broly movie.
@@bradspitt3896"They just turned blue one day" is exactly how i feel about dragon ball as a whole, ssj1 was earned, ssj2 and 3 are questionable but still feel earned. god form? i mean sure if you combine all of those guys in a ritual to make someone temporarily a weaker god, then sure. but ssblue? why? honestly i htink the battle of gods should have been the end of all of dragon ball, atleast in regards to transformations, maybe not even the battle of gods, z by itself was a fine end.
We kinda just already knew the formula to the show at this point we know that goku will always win and he won’t die because the show and franchise is so big generates so much money they not gonna let it die
Evo Blue vegeta did train for. He blew up the time chamber pushing his blue form to its limit and trying to get past it. While he didn’t unlock the form until the TOP, the training was arguably there, and it took the extra emotional motivation he acknowledges when he unlocks it to push him past the limit.
I really liked Vegeta's rage burst against Beerus. A lot of Gohan's early rage came out in response to seeing his loved ones hurt. Vegeta experiencing that in response to Bulma being hurt I think showed a lot of his character growth from the Buu saga coming to fruition. He loves his family and throws down with a god when they're harmed.
True so so true👍
Yeah, but that doesn’t make it earned.
@@MayHugger It's not a form and it is absolutely earned. Vegeta went through a lot of character growth up to that point and Saiyans can have rage moments with temporary power-ups. Goku even had one not too late after when he heard they killed Chichi and Gohan in that timeline. Goku also had one (and arguably several) was before in DB, namely when Krillin got killed the first time.
But ya'll posers don't know about that.
@@RuneKatashima When did I say it was a form?
@@MayHugger You didn't, but I think they're trying to say it's irrelevant because 1) It's just a temporary boost. 2) It's well established that multiple characters get rage boosts.
It's not an example of an unearned increase in power or new form that can be accessed again. It's just someone going at 200% for a bit.
Did you notice how the animated styles of Both Piccolos Transformation and Gohans are very different...It's almost like this movie was ment to have Piccolo as the central part of it but then they just decided to through in Gohan at the End and quickly did his CGI..
It feels like beast Gohan was photo shopped in😂
It’s because cause gohan wasn’t actually meant to be a central part of the movie in the original script, but someone at toei begged toriyama to have gohan be given a bigger role in the movie which doesn’t surprise me tbh
@@MAMZYY_YT really?
@@Jayzel617 Yh its true
Dude this is literally the case. I loved this movie, but its a common known fact that Toriyama had originally planned for this to be a piccolo-centric movie. But then Toei confronted him and told him it would be a good idea to involve gohan in the movie as well. Although I love that they finally gave Gohan another powerup, having a piccolo centric movie would've been amazing.
Piccolo might not earned it story wise, but character wise he earned it big time.
Young Gohan doesn't so much have a rage boost it is more like the lack of rage being a hindrance than the presence of rage being a benefit. It isn't a rage buff he has a fear nerf his anger negates his fear
I consider Piccolo's Ultimate/Power Awakening and Orange forms earned. As for the beast form for gohan... not so much...
I think a lot of people feel that way
I agree.
Eh.
How is using dragon balls to get power earning it?
@@Netsuki he went back to his roots the namekians made the dragon ball literally the design of orange piccolo is designed after the dragon ball 💀
In terms of training, it is more "earned" when it is physically shown the characters are training and I don't mean one panel or flashback. In the old DBZ anime it was shown through multi-episode showcases that training was happening. If I'm told frieza trained for four months off camera, the weight of it doesn't hit me, but if I see for ten episodes that frieza has been honing his skills and earning the form then it clicks better in the brain.
exactly, also it's not only a case of being unearned, some transformations like Ultra Ego and True UI can also be lame simply because they accomplish nothing in the story, even if they make sense in theory. Gohan Beast was neither earned because we haven't seen his training neither did he himself knew about the transformation, neither did it happen because of some emotional or hype moment, atleast not on the level of other transformation like SSJ1, SSJ2 or UI
so basically "earned" means we have to sit through training filler in order to get to it?
@Americanbadashh No but at least show some bits of it?
@@Americanbadashhin a way, yes. This is true in anything in life though. People don’t understand the value of money if they don’t work for it.
So... basically each amd every single of Piccoro's power ups and everythong that happens in Buu saga huh? And all of this in the "old DBZ anime" btw
I think Vegetas rage boost is thematicly perfect and shows his character growth. He gets that boost for a similar reason to why goku unlocked SSJ to begin with. Where Goku gained SSJ when Freiza killed Krillin, Vegeta got a boost when Beerus attacked Bulma, one of the few people he cares about more than maybe anyone else.
ikr I'm pretty sure any guy would be frikkin pissed off if you slap their wife xD
not to mention the stupid s-cells thing, where the more peaceful a Saiyan's life, the more powerful they grow, and up until that point, Vegeta was living the life of an honest family man, accumulating happy memories, and thinking that maybe, for once, he wouldn't need strength.
I can't remember which arc, but there was one point where Vegeta straight-up said he was going to give up training to spend time with his family... which never worked out, but still, the fact he was going to commit to that is wild.
It’s also pretty clear to see that looking back Bulma really is the main reason Vegeta is the way he is now, sure goku beat him and crushed his pride but until he was forced to stay on earth and bulma took him in and even after that his goal was still to beat goku. I can only imagine how many headaches she had, I love all these characters so much and seeing his power explode like that after Bulma was hurt to me was literally a perfect way of showing everyone who wasn’t really aware of his history, just how much she meant to him and how much she had done for him
@@themanysirs1814 Yes there is a point where goku asks vegeta to go train, but he rejects him because Bulma is about to give birth, actually makes goku look stupid for only thinking in training not caring about family that much, forgetting common sense, but well
Vageta?
AKIRA TORIYAMA WAS AN ANGEL SENT TO EARTH! RIP
The biggest problem was the very invention of “power levels”. It was an early example of keeping the workings of a system a mystery in media, and opening that box can be a pandoras curse.
i like scaling power levels somewhat cause it's fun, but for storywriting it should have definitely been something only the author knows.
I’ll say this, Granola and Gas’ power ups being unearned is kind of the less obvious theme of that Arc, seeing as Goku, Vegeta and Frieza all surpass them through hard work. Doesn’t change the fact that they’re unearned though, just saying that we shouldn’t really beat on them for it.
I will beat on them for having their power functionally without consequences.
"But Granola had to sacrifice 150 years of his lifespan!" Yeah, in a universe where if he was smart, he'd have just waited for the dragonballs to be available again or use a different set (he still had three years left to live) and use them to wish for eternal youth or even just to get his lifespan extended by 150 years. If it was instead that he only had weeks or days to live, then it could be an actual sacrifice since he'd likely not have time to use those dragon balls again nor get another set.
@@MurasakiTsukimaru what about piccolo who did practicaly same thing? And in his case there isn't really any price to pay. He didn't even have to find dragon balls. And on top of that get something extra from shenron. Nice for him to have it but it is unearned.
@@dark-xh7fs its his latent potential being unlocked, so if you feel like thats unearned i guess ultimate gohan is unearned too
@@ErickMLG it does- gohan got 2 free power ups. Granola got the Strength he would have from his 150 Years- nothing outside of this.
@@dark-xh7fs you mean the same piccolo that has been constantly training for decades and somehow keeping up with the saiyans and only ever getting one power up (nail) piccolo actually earned and deserved the power up, while gronola wished for it without working hard for it at all
I'm honestly kind of sick of the moving goal post that is "hidden potential" they keep falling back on whenever they want Gohan to be relevant again. Every time it's "you see? This is the TRUE Gohan!" before he falls into indolence again so he can speedily catch up in a later arc after he realizes for the umpteenth time that he really needs to get it together.
This is what makes Gohan’s power up unearned . Plus in the movie he was just playing according to the actions of piccolo. He was a puppet to the plot and there was no real sense of accomplishment and value in atttaining Beast form.
Same with any character which is why I'm bored of DBS. Buu Saga didn't make much sense but fusion was a nice change from the random power-ups.
People forget how motivating the training in DB and DBZ felt. Would have been nice to see genuine training arcs again.
@@tuureimmonen8979 training used to have actual goals beyond 'defeat the next bad guy'. They allowed exploration, character moments, and use of intellect. These days, that get called 'filler'. Nobody cares, just get it over with and beat them up.
@@tsm688Fr or it just not shown at all because all of the said training happened during the time-skip which is pretty much an off-screen tactic for going over something as important as that. It really does become straining over some time.
Yeah at this point power levels depend on what the plot wants them to be. I've stopped caring about power levels and that has diminished my enjoyment of Super and all its movies.
I absolutely LOVE your point at 7:38, characters are more than what's currently happening. A great take that's often forgotten
Trunk's transformation could have been so good if they just took two oanels to explain it. Trunks could have absorbed a large amount of god ki since there was so much being used in that fight. What if his spirit bomb sword was made half of god ki, and he used half the energy that made the sword to give him that boost. Something simple like that could have made the form so much cooler.
That would be so fucking stupid. He just randomly absorbed god ki?
That can be agreed with personally and they could have had a chance for trunks to have wished his tail back when in goku’s timeline and achieve a form against god ki (copium for ssj4 returning)
I like the idea of Frieza, for probably the first time in his life, ACTUALLY TRAINING, then realizing he had so much more power that was locked off by his own arrogance and pride. Kinda like the explanation for 5th? form Cooler. I feel it does add to the Namek arc all the way back in Z, with Goku having earned his strength and compassion, while Frieza was born with overwhelming power and thus had no respect for it or anyone weaker, ever.
Frieza has 5 form too watch SDBH but what's cool is We will never know who's stronger MechaCooler or 5th Form Golden because 5th form Golden was struggling to fight Cumber while MechaCooler took on both Vegeta and Goku Blue at the same time
Honestly that also kind of counted for Vegeta and Nappa as well. Once you're in a certain position of power and no one comes close to taking you out. You kind of get complacent after awhile and think your the top dog and can basically get what you want.
It's kind of why i like how Vegeta reacted to seeing Goku equal to his strength and even giving him a challenge all throughout their fight.
It's complete bullshit that Super proposed the idea Frieza NEVER trained in his life in all of DBZ.
He got completely obliterated by Goku back on Namek, comes back as a cyborg and doesn't think about training???
Freeza and the whole he's a prodigy and just needed 6 months to catch up to SSJB is complete BS and something just fabricated for the needs of DB Super. Doesn't make sense at all. If he catches up so quickly why not train before and take out gods of destruction or even angels. And I guess you don't need close level opponents to level up now? And new Gyniu wasn't close, shouldn't be.
@@b-sha2744 but they weren't top dogs at all. Sort of middle of the pack in Freeza force.
4:20 Wait.....not a Super Dragonball fan here (pun unintended 😅), but he trained so hard he literally almost KILLED himself doing so? 😬😂
Yeah! He didn’t sleep cause he only had a few days to train and thanks for the Super :)
I've never had a problem with Caulifla's Super Sayan and the "tingle in the back"
We saw Goku transform, and then be able to use the form at will, but when it came time to teach the form to Gohan, he wanted to put Gohan through similar strife as he went through to "unlock" it instead of teaching him the technique of how he does it at will.
Same with Future Gohan and Future Trunks. Gohan tries to focus on the trauma and anger.
Vegeta also did the same thing with Cabba...
All of them were so concentrated on how they first turned super sayan that none of them even considered that now they do it without it.
Cabba would never have been able to bestow that sort of anger uppon Caulifla, and she rightfully asked him how he does it now that his first time is through. He tells her and she can transform.
Dragon Ball often also does that whole thing where people are "on the cusp" of a new form and just need to push through the glass ceiling. From Cabba's admission, Caulifla was already much stronger than he was. She wasn't just almost Super Sayan level, she had burst through that level already and just needed to learn how to trigger and control the form.
As far as unearned powerup go, it is hard not to mention Super Dragonball Heroes... it has a dubious canon, but Future/Xeno Trunks becoming Super Sayan God OFFSCREEN was quite the kick in the nuts.
I woulda rather Beast was something Gohan ALREADY had from the start of the movie and was treated as a new trick he was still working the kinks out of similar to when Goku did Kaioken Blue against Hit. I think then it would have felt less sloppy since it would attribute it to his actually training all along.
Pretty sure toriyama said something along the line of “he always had this power in him ever since the buu saga, he just needed the last push to get it”
Gohan has always had it it was even hinted all the way back in Buu saga so it's definitely a earned power it's just been lying dormant.
Didn't Gohan say he wanted to unlock an ultimate form no one has ever seen before the TOP?
@@AshVA1 I guess the destruction of Universe 7 wasn't a big enough deal to make him tap into it then :)
@@DysfonctionPlayy Listen man, it's dragon ball. There's tons of plot holes that have existed ever since Z. Ofc it's easy to point out this, and that when they introduce new stuff, but I doubt beast was even thought of when they were producing the TOP in anime.
I like to imagine that gas and granolah's powerups were designed to be unearned on purpose to show the difference between just taking a short cut to ultimate power, and putting time and effort into achieving it the way goku and vegeta do
Makes the most sense
@robertothesupermutant830 granolah would probably not win a second time though.
@Roberto The Super Mutant have you finishedthe arc? Frieza curb stomped gas who was WAYYY stronger than granolah
That's exactly the point of those. Wishing to be the strongest can still get you bested without training.
Biggest problem with recent dragon ball is it’s all decided by how strong a character is. No types of ki like special attacking ki to cut through someone’s guard. If something of the sorts were introduced it’s at least be a nice way to explain further all the different kinds of attacks like Krillin’s disc
I agree its become to generic
Just be stronger than Character X thats it
We dont have any Magic/Hax users or any other abilties where we would have a rock, paper scissors scenario where the rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper and paper beats rock
But cause everyone has the same ability it makes it too predictable and uninteresting
@@BLACKSTA361that's what i LIKE about dbz, every other fucking shonen on earth has whacky crazy powers that are countered by other whacky crazy powers, DBZ has simple powers and the one who is able to hit harder and tank blows better wins (not even always anyway, there is examples of weaker fighters being stronger ones). if you want goofy rock paper scizzor fights you have.... literally every other shonen on earth including all the big ones, go watch them.
not to mention dbz literally DOES fucking have hax and other shit, like what do you think buu absorbing ppl stronger than him is? what do you think dabura turning ppl to stone is? remember the ginyu force member who literally had za wurudo? remember goku getting beaten by a body swap technique?
jesus christ, you're just complaining that it's not ENTIRELY composed of these kind of shit instead of only 40% or whatever.
@@nizz0matic307 I'm not complaining? I'm just suggesting. DBZ is my favourite Anime buddy
thats why people like
HIT exist. he uses technique not power.
Mad disrespect to fuckin uh frisbee☠️☠️☠️
"Piccolo and Gohan power ups from emotions and plot devices are not deserved!!"
looks at Gotenks and the 6 year old Super Saiyans fusing and using SSJ3... SOMEHOW.
On the subject of the ultra divine water and the Oozaru representing Goku’s potential strength, I kinda like that that sort of thing comes back around in Super with Broly. The way his power seems to embody the mind and power of the Oozaru without actually transforming.
That's also supposed to be the justification for Gohan's beast form, right?
like how this sentence seems to embody the words and sentence of the poster without ever really becoming a paragraph.
@@critormiss6084 No the justification for that was sales and emotional resonance through nostalgia bait at the cheapest level because the Cell finale was the most popular DBZ ever was until Super.
Personally I feel that Caulifla and Kales transformations could’ve been handled differently.
Have Kale transform first, she’s normally very quiet and reserved so by having her emotions hit a breaking point she transforms. Her berserker form would be like an explosion of years of repression all boiling over at once. Caulifla gets her ass kicked and starts to break down in a way that mirrors the way Vegeta unlocked Super Sayan. Her and Cabba work together to subdue Kale.
Well I for one think the way it was handled for Caulifla was fine because I think Universe 6 saiyans function slightly differently from Universe 7 saiyans. If she’s basically the queen of saiyans in her universe, why wouldn’t she have what it takes to tap into super mode.
I don’t get why the universe 6 Saiyans weren’t already able to go Super Saiyan….which would have immediately that whole discourse about unearned forms…at least in regards to them
7:29 ugh I can't argue with that point, that's actually a really good point.
9:05 in the manga (which came after the anime) 17's power up is rectified. Cell Jrs(Cells kids who have his DNA and therefore Saiyan DNA) are also on the island. It could be said that the Cell Jrs got 17 to where he is, but since 6 of them couldnt defeat SSJ Trunks and Goten, then 17 should be SS2 (SS3 if generous)level so Blue dont make sense(maybe Goku was holding back)
You say Cell Jrs cant get 17 to where he is cuz they're around ss2 level, well I give a counterpoint: Super Saiyan Blue level Cell Jrs now exist and know where we live (thanks saiyan dna!)
@@Razzlings true they would have become stronger as well
If Gohan can be a bum and train for 2-3 years and get to god level for the T.O.P. I don't see a problem with 17 training for 10-15 YEARS, and getting to god level with no god ki. He's also talented, was created to destroy ssjs WITHOUT TRAINING and had the time, energy and enhanced potential to put in the work. Like Gohan, it's a bit of a leap but isn't a deal breaker.
@@Razzlingson the bog movie even with training goku and vegeta (they are like the 2 saiyan that never slacked of training and i don't think 17 train with cell junior as much as they did cause he did take care the animals on his island) could never Imagine they could get to the level of god ki (ss god) and even if it is possible it would take a looonggg time (my point is cell junior couldn't get to that level of power in such short period of time) and when we get to the tournament of power which is only 3 YEARS after goku achieved ssg, 17 is as strong ssb which is 50× times ssg
I agree with your take on Beast Gohan. There was probably more to it in the build up for it, but most likely had to be scrapped for constraints on it being a movie.
Hopefully the manga will go more in depth and build it up better.
Yeah the manga did quite a few things better especially, the GOD battle for Zeno was peak Manga Beerus was showing off.
Gohan always had more potential than goku. He just slacked off after the cell saga and after the Buu saga...but he always had the potential to outperform goku or vegeta.
Well in the manga Gohan had been training pretty intensely since before the Tournament of Power, and he’d also fought against Moro and likely got a damn good zenkai boost from that battle
Gohan is that one kid in primary school who we all thought was INCREDIBLY SMART but he was just Really prepared by people around him. At least that’s how modern fans see him someone who is/was on fraud watch
Personally I think that Gohan is the poster boy of unearned power ups. I don't have a problem with Gohan's power up in the Cell Saga since him having hidden potential was sorta the point of his character so I don't think there's an issue there. The problem starts in the Buu Saga where its established that Gohan has not only not been keeping up with his training but that he even became weaker than his kid self who fought Cell.
And the way they fixed his lack of power wasn't to have him go through an insane training to make up for lost time and to force him to realize his mistake and the importance of keeping up with his training, instead they just GAVE him a huge power up that literally only required him to sit on his ass to get it. Years later when Freeza came back Gohan was SOOO out of shape that he was struggling to fight off Freeza's MINIONS.
Later on Gohan did a bit of training with Piccolo and suddenly his power is on par with God Kii level fighters like Goku who HAS been training consistently for years. And now he gained another SSJ2 power up, how much did he train for that? Knowing Gohan's track record by this point I'm entirely convinced that he simply pulled a Goten and transformed completely by accident and just happened to get a new form...a form that Gohan should theoretically never have to turned into again since he has his Ultimate Form which should in theory be able to draw out all the power from that transformation without any drawbacks. The only way this new transformation can replace Ultimate is if it does everything the Ultimate form does but increases his power EVEN MORE than all his previous forms without any drawbacks.
I think that's kinda the point of Gohan's character in general. He'll always have the highest potential, and with that the easiest power ups. It's his natural disposition that makes him get weaker and on par, and even subpar, compared to the others. It's two extremes to level out his character.
That's the entire point of Gohan's character. He could easily be the strongest character in the series, if he wanted to be. His potential and rate of growth has always been off-the-charts, even in comparison to other Saiyans. It's not so ridiculous for me that he's able to come up to speed with the other characters after not training for awhile. Saiyans are gifted fighters by nature, and Gohan has been shown throughout the series to be an exceptionally gifted fighter. The juxtaposition here is that he doesn't care to hone his innate skill. He doesn't like fighting and has only done it when he had no choice. Not only that, but when he's been required to fight, he usually has to get stronger in a short amount of time, as is the pattern in Dragon Ball. This, coupled with his talent for growth (and the absurd power-scaling post-Cell saga) makes him look like an asspull, but I don't personally so. The dichotomy of his character is what makes him interesting to me.
That said...Toriyama has done a terrible job with him (and really everyone not named Goku or Vegeta) for years now. Pretty much since Super started.
It was hinted in the movie that Gohan has been training. When he said he's been working on something of his own. And also preformed the special beam cannon. Piccolo said something like where did you learn that from?
I forget what he says afterwards but he smiles, and piccolo turns his head in a way like "he's actually been training"
Kinda like how frieza trained off screen but still he trained.
The buu saga power can be debated. But the dbs gohan before t.o.p arc was not too long after the buu saga. I wouldn't say gohan was weak, but rusty. Kinda like how you take a rest week from the gym and come back. You'll be a little rusty but be stronger after a day or two of shaking of the rust.
Bro got his potential unlocked 3 times, how many times you can unlock the same thing that you are already using
Yeah exactly. It's like taking karate when your a kid the. 20 years later after being in no way training you some how match up with Bruce Lee after doing 20 sit ups .Very un eaerned
Love how you pointed out that after something was discovered once, it's easier to teach others how to replicate it. It's all around us. People once thought manipulating the power of electricity was impossible, and now it's a necessity in our everyday lives.
Whether it's a necessity or not doesn't matter. I think you meant to say it's pretty much basic knowledge by now haha.
My problem with ultra instinct (UI) is that, as far as I know, Whis never states that UI will give its user a raw power boost - let alone a raw power boost as gargantuan as the one Goku received when he unlocked UI. Whis simply states that UI is a technique. And while I understand that, in the Dragon Ball universe, a technique can boost someone's fighting ability very significantly, it's still pretty clear in Dragon Ball Super that Goku receives an enormous raw power boost from UI, in addition to being able to dodge attacks unconciously like we expected.
Technique significantly increases the power output of the being that uses it, just ask any martial artists;) UI was one of the only powerups that is 100% earned, it is the culmination of literal decades of real world time of Goku training with the celestials
Mate getting Super Saiyan from a Tingly sensation is absolutely unacceptable, this means that every saiyan in the future regardless of their origin can just be told do the tingly thing and boom super saiyan without any effort even if they never experienced rage or life threatening events before. At least make them fight each other and make the disparity in power their motivation or something. Even babies can go Super Saiyan with the tingly sensation at this point.
Orange piccolo is EARNED, not just all that was described in the video, but the fact that Piccolo had trained just as hard as everyone else yet never gained a transformation, this was effectively a reward for his evolution as a person.
Not just for training, but his actual character growth too. Ultimately, that whole movie was a celebration of Piccolo gaining a family.
Ah yes going from SSJ2 Lvl to above SSBKK20 Lvl just by wishing for it is earned.
@@DrJareldah yes, goku achieving a form that gods haven't been able to achieve in millions of years in just 30 minutes is also earned.
Broly going from base vegeta level to throwing hands with gogeta blue is also earned.
Frieza going from blue level to leagues above ultra instinct and ultra ego just cause he found a random hyperbolic time chamber on a planet is also earned.
@@QuickDraw-e7k gokus UI has been explained. If you still think it’s unearned, you don’t pay attention. Broly makes perfect sense, he was shown to have potential. He was unstable. Frieza was SSJ lvl without training for a single day. Him training constantly for 10 years makes perfect sense. Piccolo hasn’t been shown to have potential, and he wasn’t very strong when he was born. There is no logical way he had that much potential
@@DrJareld potential in dragon ball is not static, the stronger you become naturally through training the more potential you grow. That’s what makes the potential unleashed transformation powerful, the multiplier can be increase through hard work making the power boost exponential as the base power is increase and thus the potential is increased
I find it crazy how you didnt talk about goten and trunks. Them just having super saiyan has always been the absolute craziest thing ive ever seen
Why wouldn't Vegeta's rage boost be earned? It was earned by building a loving connection with a significant other, loving people is a weakness against antagonists but also the hero's strength.
As it's a movie that is showing a time gap I believe it was awesome showing how much farther Vegeta has transitioned from quite a villainous character to a heroic one. Someone that wouldn't let the person that terrifies him the most lay even one hand on his wife without unleashing everything he has and more to protect her. 🎖️
Yeah, I was confused by that take. Vegeta very much earned that from a narrative perspective and it was actually nice to see after decades of him being perceived as the mostly selfish antihero of the story. He's past that point in his life by BoG and there's nothing wrong with us being shown that in one of the most memorable moments of that movie/arc.
Its also important to mention how vegeta has known beerus for so long, seeing him torture and torment his gather while he himself was powerless to do anything , something similar happening is just something he can't allow
This was vegeta facing an opponent that he was fearful of from the start, the need to defend his family and facing his fear makes it an earned power up.
Well unfortunately the power up is kind of pointless, the gap between him and beerus was still way too big
@@cryguy0000 yes because Goku always has to win, we know. Not the point of this discussion my dude.
I feel like Beast could've been explained a bit with Gohan "forcing" a rage boost, using what he has studied about nature and adrenaline boost, his Saiyan biology, the old kai ritual, and himself, all without changing the movie outside of a bit of dialogue after the final fight. It could've been a way to give him a form he made from what he wants to be, a scholar, unlike his predecessors who are primarily fighters/martial artists. They could've gone with the Kaioken Blue reason for not wanting to use it right away(it being VERY risky on the body if done improperly) if Piccolo asked why he didn't just use it immediately. That's just me though, I love Gohan living his life, but I feel like he should know how important it is to keep up with his dad and Vegeta, but I don't think having him sacrifice either is good. I think he is smart enough to be able to merge the 2 so he can do what he loves, while also still having the power to protect those he cares for, just like Goku, but in his own way!
Honestly I love the idea of adult Gohan getting stronger due to how smart he is vs just training and random asspull transformations. His studies of nature and biology could play into how he gets stronger, or just the fact that he fights with more strategy then most others.
I think the granolah arc transformations being unearned is akin to majin vegeta being unearned, where the whole subnarrative of the arc was about how everyone trying to cheat out new powerups and techniques isn't as effective as simply working hard towards their goals, which is what frieza did and ended up clearing house with everyone.
the worst part about the granola arc wish power ups is that it blatantly contradicts everything we know about the dragon balls up to that point. Dragon balls aren't supposed to be able to grant wishes like that, otherwise there'd be no point to any of the struggles anyone has faced up to that point if they could have just wished them away the entire time. When a fictional universe contradicts its own rules for the sake of drama, it becomes bs.
They try to get around it by saying it's a different set of dragon balls, but that makes it even more bs.
I'd be more okay with it if it were the super dragon balls granting that kind of wish since those are the original dragon balls with no rules, and the series is named after them after all. Maybe if they had an arc leading up to it where Granola spent time hunting down the super dragon balls across multiple universes or something it would have felt more earned
@@HopUpOutDaBed it is like a contract though. The power you receive isn't free as you trade your entire lifespan for it.
@@HopUpOutDaBed And that's the point it was making. See the argument would matter if the Dragon Balls when they granted the wish made Granolah a giga-badass, someone who can easily sidestep everyone while also getting stronger. It however doesn't do that, Granolah gets stronger and stronger... but Goku and Vegeta are the better fighters because of their honed experience from years of fighting and training which is kinda always how Dragon Ball played things.
Hell, think back to the Raditz fight. Goku tells Raditz plainly that strength is nothing without skill and while Raditz is resilient? Dude is caught off-guard repeatedly by Goku and Piccolo employing strategy and is even shocked that energy can be charged into a single point.
My one thought with your take on Vegeta's rage boost against Beerus being unearned is that it could be considered thematic, in line with him progressing towards ultra ego.
this is how I feel as vegeta more than anyone has always been one the lack the ability to control his emotions which has held him back, so for that to be the very exact thing to boost him beyond his limits is almost too perfect tbh
@@TheDapperSaintvegetas emotional outbursts are justified
@@itsnimbus true true
Vegeta willing super Saiyan into existence is crazy dawg
I feel like Vegeta’s rage boost shows his growth emotionally. His love for his wife and family allowed him to tap into his potential.
Ultra Instinct is all earned. A lifelong journey of various teachers (Roshi, Popo & Kami, Korin, Whis). Teased at the beginning like it was meant to achieved by Goku.
Facts
Is there any proof of it actually being teased, besides being good at dodging? Come on... let's not start seeing what we think we should see, and let's have better judgment.
@@GeorgyQ it was hinted when goku and beerus first met on king kais planet, beerus literally pointing out goku had good instincts.
@@theysaidimasian9766 That's not how it works.
@@GeorgyQ Mr. Popo makes a comment that goes along the lines of "You're no good fighter. When a good fighter clashes with another, both of them move without thinking, they just let their instincts fight"
Now, this doesn't mean Toriyama was planning ultra instinct since the original dragon ball. It's just that the concept already existed in the series (many times is shown and said that Goku flights through instinct alone) and Toriyama decided to turn it into a power up.
Vegeta has trained harder than anyone else in db but yet it is his subjects that receive free, unearned or unjustifiably big power ups.
I'm so proud to see how much he has grown as a ytber from what if Goku was born with god ki to what if Goku and broly were sent to earth. God bless your Channel for many more years 🙏🏾
I think Vegeta's transformation makes sense because lets not forget he was training with Whis way before Goku on Beerus planet, even during training Whis mentions that he makes Vegeta's wrist weight lifting twice as much as Goku's was so its fair he got a power up during the tournament
Piccolo's power isn't really unearned. It's smart. He wished to have his true potential unlocked similar to how Guru did for Gohan and Krillin which Piccolo never had done for him.
The power unlock that Shenron did was like uncapping a soda bottle ready to burst but not quite able to.
Shenron literally said he put something extra in for Piccolo. Which is a serious ass pull
@@robinwagner7397wouldn't you do extra for your daddy?😂
He actually got more than he asked for but Piccolo definitely deserved it. If you really think about it he was one of the 1st to actually sense Beerus's ki so he should've had a holy/god form to begin with. Especially since he fused with Kami...
IT IS UNEARNED BS
@@Semi-Addict-Gamer I mean aren't they all. How do getting angry power you up x?
Last I check all that does is give you an aneurysm so by default all of the ssj are unearned.
My personal take is that a new form should be a clumination of character progression. There can be other way to achieve this tan just training, but i think many of the power ups feels unearned because they dont tie into the character growth and therefore cannot reflect it.
Anyone else think that Goten & Trunks SSJ was unearned?? I mean the excuse of them having enough “S cells” was honestly just a gut punch to everyone that earned the Transformation through hard work
Excuse? Their fathers had unlocked super saiyan transformation at that point so it is not unearned at all cause that literally makes sense unlike kale aur caulifla.
@@nayan.punekar plus Vegeta and Goku probably did the act while in super Saiyan so that might have helped in the kids getting the form
Maybe it's "unearned", but it also wasn't particularly relevant anymore, By the time Goten and Trunks got basic Super Saiyan for free it had already been surpassed multiple times over. Who cares if the "toddlers" could hypothetically fight at Frieza's level when, we were now measuring how dangerous the new enemies are by comparing them to Cell.
Super Saiyan was long since past being anything thing "special".
@@nayan.punekar it don't make sense if kale and calfia then goten and trunks unearned
@@nayan.punekar So they just get the achievements of their parents for granted? How is that earned lol? They didn't do anything. Honestly, if people are going to claim that this is earned, then anything is earned.
You seemed to have missed the worst offenders. Goten and Trunks achieving super saiyan so so so young, and in relativity chill training sessions compared to all the saiyans before them had endured even at that young an age
I mention them when I mention Caulifla to avoid repeating myself
I feel like ssgss and beast is the most hated because it came out of nowhere but when you look back at it they make sense sense ssgss is a power of a god but with the power of a super saiyan ontop while beast was obtained by rage and that is what a beast does he rages to get more powerful and it was a literal reference to the cell saga which was awesome in my opinion
Your right.
SSGSS actually makes sense tho
i don't like beast because it's just randomly stronger than goku and vegeta, whom have trained with gods for years. what did gohan do? "secretly train", and get angry. self improvement is apparently nothing compared to having hybrid saiyan genes.
@@funkystickman99 true... I mean why didn't Gohan go beast against buu if he could just pull this form out of his ass? What about in resurrection f when piccolo died? And if you watch the film, gohan was still rusty even with his secret training because he struggled to go ultimate
This is where s cells come in they allow saiyans to transform faster and stronger the more they retain. They get when they're in times of peace or continuously relaxed, so I think that has something to do with gohan always getting stronger quickly. Also, gohan is generally a prodigy and has lots of potential, which we've already seen and heard throughout the series.
10:09 My view on SS Goten and Trunks, are, because their dads were already Super Sayans, mainly Goku using that form as base on Cell Saga, their genes helped them archieve it easily, plus they are not pure Sayans, which make them stronger than regular ones, Caulifla doesn't have SS parents I think, nor is a hybrid saiyan so.. that's why it's bothering in general when she's be able to archieve the super form so easily, it's unfair to be compared to the Goten and Trunks situation, it's unearned in the logical sense for me
Dude piccolos orange form is well earned the dude trains nonstop all the time when hes not helping everyone he deserves this new form unlike gohan who stopped training for while piccolos been constantly sharpening his skills
Mean like tien needs something if your saying piccolo trains "nonstop"
how old are you guys? 😅
I'm 34 now. Grew up with DB and DBZ. I can't get myself to watch that anymore. I was up to date with the DBZS manga 3 years ago but it really wasn't that great.
The anime seems to have the same pacing issues as the OG run. I think the only way I'll ever get into Super is if they make a Kai remake 😆
@@Broockle Super is kinda already Dbs kai not really but I'm not sure what I mean
@@bored9796
nah, Kai pacing is really good. Makes it addicting to watch.
Super is better than the OG DBZ slog I remember but it still hardly competes with less series driven anime.
A series following an endless manga will always suffer from this 😅
@@Broockle What's a slog
9:58-10:15 This has been my stance on Caulifla ever since the episode first aired, and I am super happy you brought it up.
Although I can see this perspective if it’s easier as he stated gohan should’ve been able to achieve it much easier “it’s a response to a need not a desire” additionally it has also been officially stated that it’s easier for hybrid saiyans to tap into their saiyan origins making it easier for them to power up hence why goten and trunks have the ability to transform so although I get the effort of this point it is unfortunately invalid when you add that factor (not trying to be rude even tho that last part did come across)
The reason they were able to achieve it in Z is because they are sons of super saiyans already, stop this circus
@@PessiTheFraud Vegeta was not a super saiyan when Trunks was conceived. The tl goes with Vegeta and Bulma conceiving Trunks, Vegeta goes off to space to train, Trunks is born, then Vegeta comes back to fight the androids and is able to go super saiyan.
And besides the whole able to go super saiyan so early because their parents were able to is pure conjecture as its never stated in the series nor by Toriyama himself.
Now an explanation Toriyama did give which does explain how Goten and Trunks were able to transform are S-Cells which are cells all saiyans have and saiyans who are born with a more gentle nature or are raised in a peaceful environment, like all of the half saiyans and U6 Saiyans, have more initial s-cells. And the more s-cells a saiyan has, combined with a high enough battle power, the less of an emotional trigger is needed to go super saiyan.
@@Tormaline and? he still was super strong, as strong as final form frieza even, caulifla never trained her whole life and was competing with Goku, who had been training all his life, pure disrespect
@@Tormaline 100 bro that's exactly why I don't understand why people keep defending caulifla kale I understand as LSSJ but back tingle don't make sense and they try to justify it with goten and trunks even though theirs makes sense given their cells
Vegetas ssj2 rage isn’t bad considering it wasnt the final mail in beerus’ coffin, it was vegeta admitting that he cared more about his wife and family than his life, but this time it was right in front of them unlike his earlier sacrifice.
“Characters are more than the arc that’s currently happening. Their history matters for stuff like this.” Brilliantly expressed.
That is exactly what I feel about Gohan. Always super potential and he can catch up and erases the efforts of vegeta and goku like it was nothing. He doesn't even need to go through the same transformations.
Agreed
He has always been powerful and he does train. Stop the cap
@human3213 the problem is that Goku & Vegeta have been training with literal gods for years, and Gohan Beast who has barely been training for a year or two easily outclassed them
In my case, it mainly comes down to when a character learns something entirely off-screen, like Goku SSJ3, and Goku and Vegeta both getting Blue, and then in what we actually saw basically go "By the way, I can do this now."
Super Saiyan, as well as SSJ2 for Gohan, were both built up for a long time before finally happening, while SSJ3 and Blue are not even hinted at until they appear. And as for the first God form, I feel that one's earned because it's literally the point of the entire movie.
I liked how in manga, 17 is closer to Goku SSJ3 level instead of blue and how it hinted that he became that strong thanks to the cell juniors that survived (he mentions that he tamed them to help him watch the park, which means he must have gotten strong enough to do it and maybe stronger than that as well).
Where was it told that 17 tamed the cell juniors?
@@Shea-cv3yf In the manga
@@Its_KayBee I meant which chapter specifically
there are cell juniors alive in the manga?
@@LetsBringPeace yeah
6:27 he didnt expect it to be that heavy but after that he started swinging it around so idk what u was yappin about there
I think Gohans Beast form could potentially be the perfect hybrid of Super Saiyan and Ultimate Gohan. Like he pushed past SSJ2 for the first time and some spark of Kai energy from the power unlock ritual was somehow incorporated into his SSJ3 changing it into the beast form
Sure but it still unearned cool but this just bs
@@toniluna4597so is super Saiyan God for Goku. Beast is no more of an asspull than God. Honestly so is orange piccolo but if you consider that so is the power boost that Gohan and krillin got from Grand elder guru. That is all an asspull. Might as well count ultra ego as well because it's not like it was reaction. Vegeta was literally like, "Well guess I turn purple" dragon Ball has never been a series of well thought out things. So complaining about it now is just stupid. Just enjoy it for what it is or go watch something else if It bothers you so much
dont know why u tell people to not complain or watch something else, let people tell their opinions on a video about Opinions @@Alexanderthegreat159
@@Alexanderthegreat159 So now no one can't criticize and discuss what they see and should just "go watch something else"? what kind of dumb childish logic is that?
Also yes, it used to be a series well thought where all the characters power ups had a meaning and was early planned.
I can imagine yamcha getting a Power Up to at this point and I wouldnt even be mad. Akira Toriyama literally said he doesnt take Dragonball Super so serious anymore.
orange piccolo is definitely earned in my opinion, he fused with a warrior of namek who fought to his last breath in order to keep a tyrant from getting his wish and preserving the last of his people from dying, even though super kami guru and dende still died but got revived, and plus since nail was willing to give his own life and try a forbidden technique among namekians just to stop frieza, piccolo kind of gained nails willpower having him become more in tune with the fighting clan of the namekian race and also gaining some of nails personality in a small sense, after the battle with frieza he trained his mind and body in order to get stronger especially since goku wasnt there, and constantly did so throughout dragonball, later he assimilated with kami restoring him to his full strength which was probably cut in half at the time since he was just 1 half of a whole, he also gained some of kamis personality traits more wisdom and inherited the dragon clan part of him forming a sort of ying yang between the warrior and dragon clan of both namekians and honing both powers of each, piccolo later in super hero after years of having this power and possibly gaining some of kami an nails memories making him more knowledgeable of his own race, with the dragonballs he asked for his hidden potential to be unlocked and since shenron threw in that little bit extra it kinda seems like shenron knows how far hes come, so he threw in the long sought after power of every warrior namekian but only piccolo has proven himself to truly earn that power
"super kami guru"
I love how people still use that title as if its canon. I do use it as well lmao.
@@-cams. i know its not canon but the way it was brought about in abridged is funny lmso
Its not that he deserve it or not, which he totally does, because it is just stupid tbh, like why didnt he do it sooner? Piccolo doesnt seems like the type of guy to enjoy the thrill of training, he does it because it is necessary, so why didnt he do that back at the Top? It is an universal threat, sure, i can get behind all that, but the transformation doesnt have any logic or thought into it
Well, nerds tend to get screechy and upset when they encounter novelty. They want “Goku changes hair color”
I agree with the last one, added with the fact that it ruined the ultimate form, i think it would be better that rather than giving gohan a new form they instead gave him new techniques, allowing him to rely more on his intellect which basically represents his human side so having him use techniques to win his battles aligns more to his goals to evolve as a human
As for Gohan Beast… I would have loved it if it was acquired by Gohan Harnessing his resolve as a warrior & doing the unthinkable… combining SSJ2 with his Ultimate Form.
Edit:
Yes… I think that’s how it should have happened; Gohan accepting who & what he is by Combining His Ultimate Form & Super Sayian to protect everything he cares about.
That feels like something that the Manga would say. I love it!
I see Beast Gohan as the complete form of his Mystic Form.
Cause Gohan was always teased to have this hidden power that only releases when he's enraged. Gohan was never enraged on his mystic form until Cell Max.
So I think his Beast form was a mix of both.
do you even know what his ultimate form is ?
@@naruakabane9908
All of his latent potential released… Who’s to say he couldn’t go Super Sayian on top of Mystic / Ultimate Gohan.
@@incarnation_of_immortality3422 bro that ultimate transformation is a form that lets him allow use powers of his super Saiyan 1 and 2 . He is using his super Saiyan form but only without any flaws of those form like stamina and his blonde hair that's the whole premise of ultimate form
I'd say Vegeta's rage boost isn't unearned as it could be hinting that Gohan or Hybrids just gain rage boost more commonly. I swear Goku had similar sort of rage boosts when he lost his friends when he's younger.
He never did. Nobody but Gohan ever got real rage boosts, that is why Vegeta’s eage boost is out of nowhere and thus unearned. Imagine Vegeta just obliterating Cell after he killed Trunks. Back then, people didn’t get sudden rage boost out of nowhere just because they are little mad, that was an actual theme of Gohan and was part of his character
@@grydon6422 Gohan has more potent rage boost due to his hybrid potential but that doesn’t make them mainly exclusive to him. any saiyan if pushed past their emotions limit can use them too under the right circumstances. I know what your saying but Gohan’s rage boost are more like his inner potential being drawn out through rage so you won’t see many boost as insane as his, but it doesn’t mean other saiyans are exscluded from getting strong rage boost
Vegeta vs cell (post trunks death)
Vegeta vs Beerus (post Bulma slap)
Trunks unlocking ssj rage (random but resulted from zamasu explaining the destruction of his future caused by the domino effect of his time traveling)
Goku vs black and zamasu (hearing about future chichi’s death)
Goku fighting Jiren (Jiren firing at his friends/family in the stands)
@@Mystic_Magirano I would argue that Vegeta vs Cell wasnt really a "rage boost". It was just a realisation that for the first time in his life, he actually cared for someone and was willing to die for them.
With Gohan, his "rage boost" through DBZ was his anger taking over his emotions and his true powers being released. He would lose control and dominate. The problem was, he always held back and was afraid of killing, which is why he seemed weak usually. It wasn't until Perfect Cell killed Android 16 when he realised for the first time "killing is the only option" and he gained control of his power.
7:47 The problem with Frieza only needing to train for Four Months to reach his Golden Form is not only Worse when you consider Frieza's History, Namely him creating Transformations to WEAKEN himself as he couldn't control his immense power meaning he should have needed to master those Forms he created First, It also makes Frieza an unbeatable threat. If he can improve that much in 4 Months then there is no stopping him if he continues a that pace.
yeah, he trained for 10 years and unlocked the black form which makes him basically the strongest in the universe, one shotting Goku and Vegeta in their mastered ultra forms, and he was as strong as the Gods of destruction.
But in my opinion it's good, Frieza was born a prodigy with insane power without having to train his whole life, he was doing beerus' job for him with 0 effort, seeing him try to catch up to Goku and Vegeta is good character development especially considering that he used to think training was for the weak, and him reaching that level of power just makes sense.
Also, Frieza stopped transforming and stayed at his first form which is the strongest and was comfortable living with it, so he did master his strongest form overtime, the other forms are weaker and he doesn't need them anymore.
If I recall correctly, Dende upgraded the Dragon Balls. Shenron might be Piccolo's dragon (or Kamiccolo's, if you want) which would validate the point that it's his own power being used on himself, but, although it might not interfere in the idea of the power-up being earned or not, it definitely makes sense to have one of the forms as his own potential being unlocked by himself (yellow, probably) and the other as an effect of Dende's power (orange form) which Shenron refers to as a gift.
I think this is a good way to think of it. Ultimately, I think Piccolo's power up was earned from his growth over the course of series.
@Carly Crays
that is not what earned means.. Yes we all wanted Piccolo to be relevant and get a power up to keep up with the others because he has been growing in the past and been relevant before, but that doesn’t mean every power up he does get is automatically ”earned”.
His power up was absolutely not earned. This series has been going on for years and during multiple life threatning situations, it never dawned on Piccolo that he could just ask the Dragon to bring out his potential to be relevant? And the same could (and should) be done to every character if the Dragon is able to so that. But now suddenly Dende is just able to ”upgrade the Dragon suddenly and Shenron not only gives a free potential unlock for Piccolo out of nowhere, but also gives him an entirely new form out of nowhere when *absolutely nothing* ever in the series has implied namekians have any sort of transformations.
Even though I’m happy Piccolo can be relevant again, you are coping hard if you think this is earned lmao
Dende probably added some God Ki into it. Which would make Yellow/Orange Piccolo SSG or SSB level.
Honestly, it would make a lot more sense if Piccolo became like some sort of Dragon King or something like that.
@@grydon6422ou could also say that about other forms in dragon ball, UI shouldn't be a form, whis never implied that it's a form, Same with UE does that mean they shouldn't exist as transformations? No. The transformations just represent their current state of being. Piccolo earned this transformation by returning to his old self entirely, which was done by the dragon giving back to him after all he gave to it, dende just upgraded the dragon to do the technique that's all. Unlocking your potential just unlocks the power you already had, and considering all piccolo does is train, it doesn't make sense as to why he's so incredibly underpowered. His power stagnated for no real reason, and piccolo is one of the only characters who has not gotten a potential unlock in the slightest, all of that combined with his talent and diligence. This makes an earned power up. That's not cope that's just the truth.
Before Dende became the next Kami, the Dragon Balls only gave one wish and now it is three wishes. Even Porunga is sighing.
Another important thing to keep in mind with piccolo is that when he gets his potential unlocked by shenron it is after he is the combined form of piccolo, kami, and nail. on top of everything already established, you could make the case its the multiplied power of all of their potential being unlocked. Even if they become a single individual after fusing they all lived individual lives before that which would add to the amount of potential piccolo could have unlocked.
Don't forget that before fusing with Piccolo, Nail had a power level of over 40,000. Which means he could have soloed base form Vegeta, and even taken out several of the Ginyu Force, as the captain states a power of 60,000 would have been needed to solo them all. He was also able to somehow sense that had Piccolo fused with Kami before coming to Namek, he would have been powerful enough to defeat Frieza on his own. Which seemed to be the case, as during the Cell saga, them fusing was strong enough to fight evenly with 17, after he manhandled Super Saiyan Trunks.
what?
Shanron was destroyed by king piccolo back on DB. Doesn't make a ton of sense for him to be able to grant power levels literally millions of times his own.
@@calculator91 He can do it in the same way that Guru can. He unlocks the potential laying dormant within them. When Granola wishes to be the strongest fighter in the universe, the dragon says that he can do it, but at the cost of almost the entirety of Granola's life span. Now he's only got 3 years left to live.
2:28 I like how everyone's buff exept krillin
And Goku first son
Orange Piccollo is one of the sickest Dragon ball Designs
For me the Vegeta rage boost from Beerus was more his fear stopping him, but as well it might have been Beerus just testing the waters, as with his fight with Goku later on, where its revealed he was still holding back. I think there is a lot more going on in Vegetas mind than we all see and it kinda culminates in the later arcs of Super with Ultra Ego.
While Ultimate Gohan in DBS isn't unearned, it's still pretty cheap that in one day of training with that form, he got in the same level as Super Saiyan Blue, just like Super Saiyan Rage.
To be fair, during the xeno expo he said he was stronger than ever, but only ever used regular super Saiyan. When you keep that in mind it makes more sense. Ultimate Gohan was stronger than Goku’s SS3, so the gap in power between Super Saiyan and the potential unlock should be massive.
@@SolracDude But it's not like his base form is on par with Goku at that time right? I don't think 1-2 years of training would get him as far as Goku's at that time.
@@MinhLe19303 that is basically the golden frieza problem. Characters need to train to get stronger, but they essentially never have enough time for training alone to be a believable explanation. This isn’t really new, during the cell saga the 1 year in the chamber is somehow more effective than the 3 year time skip. Saiyan saga tells us that in 1 year Piccolo got 10x stronger and he’s not the only one, which conflicts with the 3 years of training everyone always did before the tournaments. It’s either power scaling is meaningless because everyone is always multiplying their strength 10 fold every year, or we just accept that the plot determines when training actually accomplishes anything or not.
I feel like with ultimate Gohan it's totally unearned, but I like it narratively, building up the threat of buu, even with this new fancy power up, they still lost, the buu saga's greatest strength is continuing to raise the stakes, making it almost feel like a Kaiju movie.
for me i think its earned only due to the fact that the last gohan power up was 27 years ago or so, crazy
@@10CentWenty he said Ulti Gohan, not Beast Gohan. Ulti Gohan is literally the next saga after one of the biggest powerups in the series, ALSO being his.
@@10CentWenty I don't count "it's about time" as "earned" if it's not an in-universe reason then it's inherently narratively flawed.
Toriyama handjobs all over the place.
@@ectothermic IDC if it's earned or not as long as it looks cool
@@10CentWenty Cool. Still bad writing and having low standards helps no one. 👍
2:43 power they've always had has a direct parallel to adrenaline and the human body using much less of it's full muscular potential. The body limits itself because it knows if it didn't it would rip itself apart. But we skirt so far under the line of potential damage that using the full potential and actually coming to meet the line would be a massive boost. Not crossing into the realm of dangerous, but actually finding that line and standing on the razors edge so to speak.
7:55 i mean, you said Piccolo going to 3500 to 100 thousand in power level is bullshit, even if he trained for it. Freeza going to Golden Freeza which is at least hundreds of thousands of times stronger than his Final form. should be bullshit too. shouldn't it?
CARTHU PLS RESPOND
What unearned power ups do to a series if they could be used at an optimal time:
Remember, guru potential unlock was a 10x+ multiplier depending who it was used on. Someone like Gohan had more potential and thus a higher multiplier.
Also remember Gohan in the Buu saga was similar or weaker than himself during cell saga. Goku and Vegeta seemingly exceeded Gohan. Throw in ssj3 which is a 400x multiplier as opposed to ssj2's 100x. Gohan getting his ultimate form seemingly pushed him above Goku in ssj3. If we're being very conservative that's a 5-6 times increase in power.
So what is my point here is if right now at this moment Goku somehow got his potential unlocked and then the ultimate form he would potentially be 50+ times stronger than before.
Goku has become significantly stronger since the TOP. Just imagine a 50x multiplier. It would make him 50x+ stronger than Belmod. What about Beerus? Beerus may be the strongest GoD. But is he 50 times stronger than Belmod? That's basically destroying Belmod with one light attack. If Beerus had that kind of power would any other GoD even attempt to antagonize him?
Probably not.
But welcome to the wacky world of broken power scaling.
I'm looking forward to this video.
Hes already unlocked his potential by himself.
2:35 Hear me out
Gohan and Krillin show up to Namek with similar intentions as all the villains, Use the Dragon Ball. However the Villain kill everyone that gets in their way, and even kill those they don't have too because of how evil they are all to get a selfish wish.
Gohan and Krillin come with kindness, they ask for the Dragon Ball, they risk their lives to protect a child Namekian. Not only that, but their wish they were planning to ask was one to being back their fallen friends. It is because they have the compassion that the villains lack is why they are given the power they need to survive.
I don't not have any original thoughts, just watch Dragon Ball Dissection alot
10:12 I kinda liked the way that Cabba’s universe discovered super saiyan. They made it pretty clear that most of the saiyans (excluding Kaulifla and her sect) a bit more of a calmer, and contemplative culture. So to have a more diagnostic and technical way of discovering SSJ makes sense to me.
It's not only about God level. It's about how characters are all of a sudden able to skip SSJ 3 and jump straight to a new form that didn't exist or no one reached before as if the Z fighters never trained hard in DBZ to reach newer heights
People act like just because Caulifla didn't have a 200 episode training arc means she has never trained in her life. She earned the form by training her entire life. She already LONG since surpassed the minimum power level to become a Super Saiyan. And when you consider the Universe 6 Saiyans are a peaceful race, they would have gained more than enough S-Cells to transform.
The only thing they needed was to know HOW, to know that it was even possible in the first place. Caulifa being able to easily replicate it mirrors that of her Universe 7 counterpart in Goku, who has shown repeatedly the ability to learn things after seeing them once.
Both narratively and training wise it is earned, even more so than Goten and Trunks which was only earned through inherited nepotism and was narratively a gag.
Finally someone said this
The back tingle is and will always be bs. You don't need 200 episodes cabba literally did it in one episode and I never seen anyone complain that he got ssj.
And what's this about minimum required power level? If that was the case Broly would have got it without the need of his father dying even if he lived in a hostile environment.
And you saying it's earned but she immediately went ssj2 not long after. Cabba had to struggle for it
@@Hello-vx2fo you can't give me one good reason
She trained all her life yet she’s never gotten slightly angry? Cabba got upset at a half baked threat and immediately unlocked the form. The idea that no saiyan in universe 6 has ever hit the unbelievably low threshold that it takes to become SSJ is ridiculous.
@@Simpnamedslickback brother if you were a Saiyan you'd have unlocked it right now, because holy crap what is with this aggression. Calm down, Jesus Christ.
This is why I still love Yu-Yu Hakusho's extremely slow power scaling and finality.
You go from barely stronger from a street thug, and it just builds up slowly over time, the characters being super lucky but incompetant, and than getting more skill with their techniques over time. Sometimes they use a mcguffin to boost their power, but they eventually master it and it's really satisfying.
Yyh still copies what db does with making the pure human fighter look mostly worthless, not really doing anything with them and having the fights be about just power.
@@stevemclovin1566I'll admit I've only read until a bit after the Dark Tournament arc. So if this changes after that I stand corrected. But one thing I respect about Yu Yu Hakusho until then is the fact that they DIDN'T do this. Yusuke’s whole crew mattered and had a chance to shine. Well, except Boton, but she's a non fighter like Keiko. Even Kuwabara who looked like he would just be a joke character had his moments in the series. I wish Dragon Ball and a few other Shonen followed this example. Would have been great if Goku’s crew had stayed relevant.
@@stevemclovin1566which of them was the pure human? Cause bully boy got a sweet spirit sword
@@Skullhawk13 kuwabara the orange haired guy. His sword is cool but togashi sucked with showing off better while undermined it and him.
@@stevemclovin1566 I think it was actually what made the series better. He wasn't able to keep up with the descendant of the mazoku, the ancient fox and the demon that survived the jigan because quite frankly, he shouldn't. He's just a spiritually gifted ordinary human. That didn't stop him from still being narratively useful.
In the anime's last arc when some of the other demons somewhat caught up with the help of genkai's training, that was the actual bad writing part. And even then, they at least still made ryzen's friends hard stomp them.
The thing about the universe 6 saiyans is the writters could've found another way to unlock it that worked with their motivations. I don't mind it being done quickly, but that was also a chance to establish characters and push them in a meaningful way.