The Dark Side of Solar - Top Electrician Mistakes Exposed!
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- Опубликовано: 21 мар 2023
- Are you an electrician who wants to ride the solar wave? With energy costs soaring, the demand for solar panels has never been higher. But navigating the solar installation market may leave you feeling a bit lost. Fear not! In our exciting eFIXX TV event, learn from one of the UK's top renewable energy gurus as we bust common misconceptions and unveil pitfalls electricians face. Upgrade your skills and harness the power of the sun!
About our guest presenter:
Griff Thomas has been in the industry for over 15 years and has overseen the development of most of the national renewable technology standards. He has spearheaded several government-backed industry training initiatives and undertakes renewable technology site visits for many governmental and non-governmental schemes. GTEC trains Renewable installers at locations throughout the UK, with courses in everything from Heat Pump Installation, Solar PV , Battery Storage (EESS), EV Charging and many more!
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Learn more about GTEC's renewable energy training courses
hub.efixx.co.uk/gtec-training
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Развлечения
When I did a very recent solar training course at Gtec we were advised that even if there’s an onboard DC isolator on the inverter ( that could be missed as the trainer had on occasion ) it is good practice to add one on the wall. The trainer said for £30 why wouldn’t you ! 🤷🏼♂️
more connections, more failure points?
@@edc1569 yes I agree. But that’s what out “class” were told on a Gtec training course.
Common practice in parts of the world where the PV home run lands on terminals instead of MC4 connectors in the inverter or charge controller.
This !
As usual you have a line of compliance and where we sit on that line is a choice. To not install separate DC isolation is that absolute entry point IMHO. The EAWR are clear and would 100% point towards proper lockable isolation. The emergency services would certainly not carry around MC4 tools for isolation if required when fighting a fire.
Also BS 7671 is very clear on the subject and this is a wiring standard, not a product standard so isolation included in the fixed wiring would be required.
Would have been nice to hear an alternative to the opinion given so that a fair and balanced debate could be had.
BS7671 is clear dc isolation is required but it doesn’t specify how. The IET best practice guide clearly state that an internal DC isolator on an inverter is acceptable.
@@Stugadget BS7671 states that DC isolation should be provided to allow for the replacement of the inverter and also states that that must be a switch disconnector.
you'd think emergency services would find disconnecting a dc pv system pretty simple compared to dealing with a wrecked EV.
@@neilbridgeman7768 reg number please? Also BIG note: the majority of PV related fires occurs due to a poor connection at the isolators
20 years doing industrial solar - we are now getting into the replacement of solar panels that are aging out. There's LOTS of stuff that changed and can bugger you up on the upgrade..
How they were installed being one of them... ;)
Putting LiFEPo4 batteries in the loft is pretty mad, half of the winter they'll be too cold to work properly, over summer they'll be thermal tripping or just wearing out at 4x the rate they would if somewhere sensible
If only! UK houses are smaller than 50 years ago and UK people are bigger than they ever have been. Something has to give and the spare space has gone from most homes
I wonder how many installers explain to the customer that their equipment in the loft will be at its worst efficiency when solar is at its best. The derating factor for inverters installed in the loft in summer months is a lot.
You should make it clear to isolate AC first to reduce DC current to zero before isolating DC.
Also an external DC isolator is good as it saves you having to disconnect the MC4's which will degrade with multiple insertions and the tool may not be to hand....
My pylontech battery manuals state they should be kept between 10deg c and 40 deg c outside these parameters shortens life., a loft space does not seem to be the best place temperature wise. Also I have spike and surge protection on both sides of the inverter. Plus lightning arrestors on the solar panel inputs. These go down to an earth rod by 16mm sq earth cable. The pylontech batteries also have built-in protection connected to 16mm to earth rod!
Some strings can have 1000V plus on. Advising a safe system of maintenance is simply unplugging MC4s is not a chain of thought we are running with. Outside of that with the need for SPDs and allowing for maintenance of those even more essential. Not having an isolation point in the fixed wiring system goes against everything we have been taught in regular electrical work lol. I understand the inverter removes the load, great. But it does not remove the voltage.
I would ask if the open ends of the MC4 connectors satisfy not working live and EWR1989. Is it necessary, can it be avoided... As an employer sending people to work that's a wicket I don't want to batt on.
Also a factor would be easily identifiable for emergency isolation by say a fire fighter. Its a no from me and as tight Yorkshire man who would love to save £30 on a DC isolator that should speak volumes lol.
In one aspect we have got opinion around working live on the roof and being aware of it but then a total ignorance to it at the inverter. Engineering in a problem by design.
It seems a few in the solar/battery storage space need to improve their standards.
Griff came across really well and great to see they have a dedicated renewables training space, much needed! Although I would advise a rethink before any CPD comes along saying not to use external DC isolators.
Great show gents.
Thanks Mark,
There is a lot more to come on the topic of solar PV and safe systems of work. However, With the Sunsynk inverter we've installed you'd always have to remove the MC4 connectors when working inside the inverter. Otherwise you'd have to remove the cover of an external isolator to prove the system is dead with a voltage indicator, as it's difficult to access the DC bus inside the inverter. The surge protection device is also inside the inverter.
Of course every system is different, and lots of inverters don't have inbuilt isolators.
The reason we wanted to explore this topic with Griff was to reflect back on what we've seen on site. If you look at the project we reported from in Wales - 300 homes in the social housing sector all with Sonnen hybrid inverter systems fitted in the kitchen / hall way - not an isolator to be seen - apart from the ones built in to the inverter.
👉 ruclips.net/video/jVVaUhFZb_o/видео.html
This project was designed by a leading consulting engineer and not subject to any contractor value engineering.
We also look at other contractors who we follow such as Powercor who work extensively across large public and private projects and we don't see widespread use of external isolators. This is not a contractor who cuts corners.
Also remember the DC isolator is not coloured as an emergency isolator so it's unlikely a fire fighter will be rushing to switch that off to isolate two feet of cable when the rest of the system on the roof remains live.
The bigger issue of non-compliance we didn''t touch upon, is the isolation of back up (UPS) power supplies from the grid during a power outage. Hybrid inverters are generally relying upon circuit board relays which don't satisfy the requirements of the ESCQR regulations. Therefore contractors should be fitting change over switches. More on this to follow.
Cheers
Gordon
@@efixx Its great to see you giving it some coverage. It is a rabbit hole I have gone down as we move into solar. We have been very lucky to have some juicy (excuse the poor pun) projects to look at. My major concern is the safe system of work post installation and availability of isolation for unskilled and unfamiliar operatives. I can see the focus of your discussion was domestic and household. But with the fire fighter example it could be a commercial install with multiple strings and they very much would or at least should have mapped process to isolate in the event of fire response.
I thought about proving dead without access to internal components and the system we are currently using (not ideal) is to clamp the strings, open the isolators and at least have some confidence they have opened! At that stage we enter into a known live working phase and open the isolator until we prove dead as you describe with a voltage indicator. The same sort of process we apply on AC systems tbh.
The alternative is to treat any inverter replacement as live working in full. Which I dont see HSE agreeing with in the event of an incident when so easily avoided.
The murky waters manufacturers and consultants build should be front in the mind with EVSE and RCDs.
Some will accept it and thats fine, but not for me. We might as well wire everything in commando plugs, take off load and simply pull the leads out. Isolators are over rated maybe lol.
Keep it up guys.
Similar to you, I support the use of a dedicated DC isolator, and as a matter of engineering judgement I'll continue to install it as I think it represents best practice. Fiddling about with delicate parts of an inverter should be absolutely minimized where possible. When is your MCS assessment mate, have mine May 2nd 🙂
@loveofkemet still awaiting a confirmed date but hopefully very very soon lol. Thanks!
What is risker, introduce more failure points/fire risk in terms of non properly terminated/bad MC4 connectors, or safety risk from pulling MC4 connectors without load?
When I did my training we was told every string should have an isolator for easy of testing and fault finding.
Your solar guy is good. Biggest problem is that most electrians are good at what they do but when it involves other tasks they aren't the specialist. I learnt from. The start before I touched a cable. I was Instructed on craftsmanship of our work plus those we did our selves plus of those we counted on. Even the regs support this. Even as I'm typing this your guy is backing me up. Build8ng standards need to be signed off to protect our selves.
A lot of talk about DC isolators for the solar, Like doing your tool and safety talk in the morning, you would need to check the inverter. A 5 KVA Sunsynk wouldnt require an additional isolator becuase there are MC plugs below the unit, however if you were to install an 8 KVA Sunsynk inverter, it might not be such a bad idea, because the solar DC wires are terminated inside the unit.
Good assessment Ian👍
Good video Guys. Keep them coming. Can you share the link of the video you talked about.
Not a world I've dipped my toe in solar. Fascinating show. Griff excellent guest.
Thanks Eddie -
Came across a post in the group ,suggesting mc4 connections on the battery to Inverter!!!
I think they're rated for around 25amps or less.
Some are better than others and totally agree on matching. I've clicked and it didn't feel right so I've cut them off both sides as it was a panel mc4.
When I send out kits, I usual have the isolators and plugs fitted and test them so the fitters don't have to.
I was under the impression from the regs that the isolators had to be lockable?
The fitted in inverters are not.
Our battery packs BMS isolate the battery terminals, they are also internally fused, and short detection. So they are pretty safe.
And of course reading through the "suggestions" there is more mention of fall backs ... Is that h&s gone crazy??
SEG I'm pretty sure required meters as some inverters are not entirely accurate and of course some meters don't even have an export function. Apparently there is confusion over the responsibility. The DNO was named, the supplier, the home owner, and even the installer.
Clear as mud as usual apparently MSc gives the duty to the installer.
Just jumping back to kits. The most difficult thing would be hooks, there are so many variables in tile types and even how they are fitted that it's more often than not a problem.
I have refused installs based on roof conditions. A very unhappy customer. But tuff!
I'd not seen the roof and it's condition before hand. Sagging patchwork, my opinion took a photo and got another as well. Different to "not long had it all fixed"...
Sunsynk or deye as they are known, they inverters are good the support is good as well.
And your expert may fair in some places. But a la battery can dump over 700amps not 80.
And lfp battery packs can hit over 200amps depending on the config, it can be higher but you're more likely to be looking at 200amp.
And 200x50v is more like 10kw so more than a serious burn. More vaporisation.
Oh deye/sunsynk has AFD built in... Which Is nice. And the WiFi/RF this is due to signal matching of the processors and installer antenna which could mess with the settings. Due to the simple control codes used.... But they are fairly well shielded.
And lastly loft installations nope. UK summers they will reach reduced production and switch off fairly easy. It may become part of the job to add a vent to keep them cool. The level on most I have seen is 45oC it's in the manuals. And was added a bit later.
And lastly...
Most inverters work from DC and not the AC. Seen so many people asking if it's faulty, because the solar didn't reach the start up voltage, or it was night time and so the tests should be carried out with DC enabled in most cases or some depends on the fault.
49:00 PowerPoint has an option in settings to end on a black slide. This way when you get to the end it goes black with a little bit of text that says last slide press escape or next exit. If it's just photos I've been really happy with fast stone image viewer, give it a directory of photos and it can do a nice full screen and zoom pair that with a second monitor and you get some neat features.
I liked the Harry Enfield reference "Loads of Money" 😅
Yes it seems like you're getting a lot of unnecessary equipment around solar installations. I do like the DC isolator and the AC isolator which means if for some reason the inverter needs to be changed out you don't have live MC4 connectors floating around.
If the dc cables are already in their Mc4 connectors then they are not live. Unless you clip them together.
@@solarrover9575 just because there is no current flowing doesn't mean they aren't live cables.
@@davemyers77 yeah that makes sense?? Plus they are in their mc4 connectors so you can’t touch the cable.
Should've thrown up a timer and make it a game, how fast can we change the batteries out....
The technical difficulties screen well interesting and more powerful was also more distracting. Wonder if you could do a lower third or a ticker. Especially with a clock.
I have found that installers do not read manufacturers recommendations. So many systems I have been too that have the incorrect RCD fitted and some protected within a consumer unit. After my own research it's very clear that each manufacture will state a type for there equipment. Example Solis require a type A but 100ma.
Doing great sharing information about the great future
@01:29:19 Probably need to find out if the person uses Ham or CB radio equipment which can operate ~ < 30Mhz because it could interfere with their modulation so adhere to the EMI filter adding, that also of course mean any of your neighbourhood using HAM/CB.
Generation meters are still required for the MCS certificate 👍
At present, yes still a requirement.
For post 2019 (Non-FIT Installation) i.e SEG with a smart meter the generation meter serves no purpose other than to add expense and time and wasted space to the installer. As the energy company providing seg payments do not care about a generation meter.
I called the MCS for further clarification and reasoning behind this back in November 2022 and they confirmed its legislation on the gen meter requirement needs updating now that FIT finished in 2019 and SEG requires a smart meter. The person I spoke to said its something they will look to update i 2023.
We shall wait and see.
P.s - Oval Renewables.. i reached out to you (Nick) to ask this very question back in mid November 2022 and then contacted MCS to find a timeline of when they were proposing to update legislation.
@@davespagesyes I agree it doesn’t serve much of a purpose anymore but currently you can’t get an MCS certificate without a generation meter. I would support it being scrapped. However I found it strange that Griff from GTEC highlighted it as not required without it being made clear that it was still a requirement for MCS 👍
@@OvalRenewables Made this comment in the live chat. Few things I disagreed with on this one but such is life!
Cool video. Don’t you need to fit a generation meter for the MCS certification? Thanks
I could only watch in 720p so on my big tv the quality looks terrible, still love your content its fun and educational, keep it up .
Thanks for the feedback - For live streams we are restricted to 720p
As a diy and from my experience, I would never install any PV equipment in a loft.
Simply because of the temperature in summer.
Joe doing an awesome impression in the intro of Dwight in US version of The Office!
Bears, beats, battlestar galactica! 😂
In the section regarding pulling out the mc4 connectors in the event of needing dc isolation from the inverter, is there not any external isolation box to ensure the consumer does not need to approach the inverter itself in case of a fault?
I have a question I would like to fit the inverter on a wall inside an external meter room width is 640mm, SUNSYNK-3.6K-SG01/03LP1 as I dont want to fit a battery and Invertor in my loft.
With off grid solar, what do you do with earthing from the inverter, do you hammer an earthing rod into the ground?
in san francisco you have to have a dc isolator for the panels on the roof so if theres a fire the fire service can shut it off as they put hole in roof to let out heat and smoke most isolators i have seen are big. i did see a big company put a switch likr a light swirch at front. i presume they used some tyoe dc contactor.i think attic installed inverters and vatteries will be banned in future aa a fire hazard you also have heat and cold. but may not effect uk..i think roof safety and leaks should be imprtant as wire sizing. as your dealing with higher volrages and amps than electricians are used to.also commercual solar will get bigger so you have bigger equipment, also dont use ac fuses and vreakers on dc
Any further details on the £2.50/kWh forced discharge Griff mentioned?
Very surprised there was no mention of the MCB on the battery, I'm pretty certain it's the wrong type, as I explained in the original video.
The MCB on the battery is suitable for DC
chint.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/DZ158-Datasheet.pdf
@@efixx It not only has to be suitable for DC, but for use with current flowing in both directions as you would get with a battery. It looks like it is correct but the data sheet doesn't make it clear, although I found a better clip in your video, and it does appear to be designed for current flow in both directions. Most DC MCBs have a + and a - marked on the little diagram on the MCB, yours doesn't (see ruclips.net/video/MiyuVbjkAck/видео.html ). If they have the little + and - then they are only designed to arrest the arc with current flow in the one direction, but this is often misunderstood and I feel is something that needs highlighting as it has caused many fires in the past.
Interesting video (too long though) if that mc4 arc didn’t make people sit-up and that notice then I don’t know what will. I have been in industrial electrics all my life and seen my fair share or arcs and explosions in machine panels but that dc arc at 3.75 amps wow scary. Never thought of not mixing brands of mc4’s that’s like saying if you have MK sockets in your house you have to use MK plugs 🤷♂️. I am guessing that this may be good practice but surly not always possible to match the existing.
Interesting that you state the need for a DC isolator between the inverter and the battery, when my inverter was installed the solar company told me that it was mandatory to have the cable from the battery directly run to the inverter to comply with regulations or warranty (i forget which), i.e. the battery cables cannot be extended and no DC switch, this seems not compliant with what was said here. Also I have 2 bits of feedback on things that can happen with the install. 1) the solar PV was installed in 2 strings and after the install I noticed that the 2 panels connected to the second string were not and would never provide enough voltage to start the inverter producing power from those panels and it’s only that I checked the detailed information from the inverter for power production that I spotted the issue. Secondly as a consumer I feel like I don’t have proper control of the equipment I own as there are features of the inverter that have been removed from my web interface by the UK distributor of the inverter and this makes me really uncomfortable.
@efixx
We have been doing solar since 2009 and manufacturers specifications supersede Any bs7671 or mcs regulations and the most manufacturers state you do not need battery isolation as the additional termination is an additional fire risk at high current low voltage applications.
As long as the battery is lithium ion phosphate operating on canbus communication and tge inverter has simple seperation accompanied and installed on a designated circuit using ebads or additional protection from rcd and mcb protection or equivalent then battery isolation is not necessary as the inverter is only operating to the nominal rated breaking capacity in event of fault.
I am a member of miet and helped mcs early on… we understand the iet are trying to get a stronghold around the installation criteria however they need to speak to the manufacturers directly to understand how the technology functions prior to writing safety standards rather than applying a broad brush standards approach that doesn’t suit most circumstances.
This also applies to dc isolation hence since 2016 most manufacturers started intergrating dc rotary isolation only applying direct dc mc4 inputs to minimise joint fires, we have attended thousands of solar installations whereby dc isolation switches have burnt out on neutral poles due to heat expansion and contraction.
This is why manufacturers intergrated dc switching and made mc4s (only removable with the use of a tool) and ditched mc3 connections.
Only wanted to inform you just in case you wanted to apply additional guidance to your audience.
Keep up the great shows :)
Ps did Gary used to work for the niceic I think we have crossed paths in the past.
@@generationelectrical1071 thanks, that’s interesting feedback. I had assumed that the IET would have wanted something like solar quite controlled, what with it being permanently installed into the consumer unit and unusually supplying energy back into it.
@@generationelectrical1071 Great information on a confusing topic, that is exactly my thoughts as well, as I was puzzled on why do you need isolator on a battery side. On a side note, I see a lot of installers overseas do put a class T fuses on large battery banks, what is your view on that and what UK regulations do require?
Have a look at the Luton airport car park fire before putting lithium batteries in the loft and remember once you have left all the junk will go back inside the space. Mind you it's probably the safest place to hide the Hybrid Rangerover from theft.
Luton airport carpark fire was caused by a diesel car - www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/what-caused-the-luton-airport-fire-b2429048.html
Hi, good video, just one question I am a lever and alignment engineer with some electric experience. Your three pendant are they level or is it the camera angle? John
Hopefully 🤞 it’s just the camera angle 😂
Without the DC isolator prior to final connection to the inverter how would you safely perform commissioning and ongoing maintenance checks. Such as measuring short circuit current where you would connect ends of string together. Making and breaking will be underlie without any separate DC isolation.
Just to add though, this has been a fantastic Live. Really enjoyed and re watched for bits I missed.
Just disconnect the mc4 connectors under the inverter and pairing with an appropriate set of test leads.
Is it acceptable that the actual export over a month would be 50% more than the BMS is reporting? What would you consider to be normal?
Very informative but Solar really needs a colour scheme for labels to clearly show what circuits are DC
Sorry am I understanding correctly that if the head unit has a DC isolation switch on it, you do not need one on the line in. And would that not leave you With a live wire. Like if on your set up you only threw the switch on the unit you showed and not the one that was on the wires themselves would you not be yanking live wires out.
My father in law rather than using me to install there PV he had it done through a free government scheme. All the brackets are fixed through the slate tiles, cable looped over the gutter. Absolutely terrible install.
I was taught that when putting in the wires into a socket you cut them longer and folded them over (double surface screw grip area) So acording to me all those 3 electricians FAILED
I will join ur company sir ... Soo much intersting sir... Native india
Why mc4? Every conector has tre point of singel fail. This is not security. Use conections where more than one press must fail to get a bad conection. I think mc4 is below the segurety standard we should demand. Its also to complicated. I have cutet them away on my system.
My biggest complaint is software. Is it up todate, trying to find that out and then the process of getting an update. Plus manuals are truly rubbish. Solar kit in a box is the future.
if the meter is not required then how is export measured ?
Smart meter
The few batterys i have installed, the manuals are not very good. they do not flow.
The single downvote must've been from the electrician who left that cable exposed 😂
Who made it into the end credits then .? Bit naughty cutting off like that .
But it was a brilliant live show I really did enjoy it and found it very interesting and informative. Don’t get why anyone would put all that battery gear in the loft though that just crazy dumb you would have to be a pilchard to do that .
Technical issue with inter web at the end of the stream Sean
The mcs cert asks for generation meter details so it needed.
MCS - asks for a means of recording and displaying the total system generation - most inverters display this and have an associated app. Doesn’t say it needs to be a meter.
Yes but on the MCS cert you need to state gen meter serial no. model etc.
You won’t get me up working on a roof anytime soon,actually never.
Flexi- Orb is now the way to go I was MCS 10 years ago but the waiting list is stupid at mo SEG payments ok 👍
Sounds like you dont need to be MCS registerd to use the Flexi - Orb service, is that the case?
Enphase microinverters remove so much of the risk associated with DC. Much better system!
System control centre
The best solution to remove the risk of HV DC arcing is to install micro inverters instead.
Micro inverters are not suitable for all sites
@@miketiong8441 such as?
Micro inverters are the future
Great to see Griff Thomas on this live BEST LIVE YET! Super smart guest GREAT FUN! but also nice to see that the conversation with Lee and Gordon on my hybrid inverter video about DC isolation is correct.
It is not correct nor incorrect. It is a view. For example he said a generation meter is not required. Again correct, however MCD won’t be issuing a certificate without it.
There is too much h over talking in this video
Dc v ac❤