Another interesting question to consider...do you think that, after a presumably successful Terran Rebellion, the Terrans were more likely to a) recreate the Terran Empire in its old, fascistic ways--regarding Spock's reforms as a mistake--as is broadly the case in Star Trek Online; or b) form a sort of "Galactic Republic" akin to the Federation as is the case in the Novelverse?
In my opinion, I think they would likely have started out as a republic-like government, but then slowly transitioned back to their old fascistic habits at some point.
based on DS9, I'd have said that the Terrans are able to establish some kind of federal republic to unite their worlds that is much less perfect or ambitious than the Federation. Based on Discovery.... I'm less hopeful
The natural state of humanity is fascist or worse. It has only been in the last few of centuries that has changed. I am not hopeful that it can be maintained for long. What is interesting, examining all of the different races we have seen in the Star Trek Universe, the two with the best hope for long lasting stable continuation are the Klingons and the Ferengi and both for exactly opposite reasons. The Klingons are centrally controlled with all owing allegiance to their leader. That is very stable. The Feringi are completely decentralized with all owing allegiance to themselves. That is also very stable as the "Unseen Hand" guides everything. From the rules of Acquisition "Peace is good for trade." Given the choice, Terran, Klingon, Ferengi I would choose Ferengi.
Another great video. "In a Mirror Darkly" is one of Enterprise's best episodes. To your point that war accelerates progress: both the conflicts Iraq and Afghanistan have fostered advances in medicine and rehabilitation vis-à-vis prosthetics.
Accept that those were made by the US and allies, we live in a world where yes there is war, but it's not as common as it used to be, countries don't usually need to fight over resources and most of our modern nations aren't warlike. Unlike the Terran Empire, war is the very essence of their existence, war, and constant betrayal will make a society always looking for a fight, whether it's killin someone above you to advance your own position, or the Terran Empire looking to conquer a neighbor, even when the Terrens were Rebels in DS9 you could still see that aspect of betrayal and violence, just often it was focused enough t their enslavers to keep from fighting each other much.
By stealing tech. But to be clear, the writers for the most part (and seemingly accidentally) have shown the Mirror universe to be always falling behind, needing massive tech infusions to first surpass, then keep up, then inevitably fall behind the Prime timeline. They get Vulcan tech but almost 100 years later are still fielding plain NX's. Maybe with shields and better weapons but still no match for a Prime Connie...with an untrained, skeleton crew and itself likely suffering damage from Gorn sabotage, Tholian salvage attempts, transporting to another dimension and time, and whatever damage was incurred when the original crew violently killed each other. Speaking of that TOS-era Defiant, 100+ years later and the Terran Empire more or less field the same ship, with no real indication of any superiority to the Prime version. We see the nadir of this cycle where a single scrap-built TNG-era Defiant class with a rookie crew (but obviously boss captain) could basically solo an entire Mirror fleet. Almost as if creating a homicidally competitive society might drive you to make a better phaser today....but murders all the contemplative sorts of people that you need to invent a quantum torpedo tomorrow.
Constant warfare keeps you sharp, but also attrition can kill your brightest minds. Plus their very society is built upon selfish backstabbing your way to the top so if engineers and scientists have that mentality its no surprise they fall behind after every technological boon via theft. A lot of brilliance snuffed out due to ambition. Plus the actual reason is budget; they can reuse the same models a the current series they are in to keep budgets down.
@@hamanu666 Oh sure, imagine a Mirror Albert Einstein...killed by agents of His Majesty's secret service for daring to upend the Newtonian (and British) physics model especially if in service of a greater German Empire. It's the same reason I think the Klingons keeping up with the Federation for centuries doesn't work. If you live in a society where someone can end a debate by slipping a knife into your guts, your brainy folks over the long-term aren't gonna be able to upend the established models (and their associated political interests) as often as they should. And not because they are nerds but when you live by the sword, you die by the sword, ie whether they are stronger, they can hire stronger people, or just get lucky. I also wonder about that first part. There's a reason armies have long rotated troops from frontline or even active duty to keep them fresh. Constant danger is tiring at the very least and if you have one eye on your back at all times you are missing the world right in front of you. A real problem for scientists trying to understand it.
I like to sum it up as the MU being fated to follow similar paths as the PU, we know no matter what history may be different there's often still a Mirror version born. Other timelines should logically have different people born since history is different, but it's clear no matter what happens the MU in some aspects follows similar patterns to the PU, thus it means they I guess "quantumly" linked or what ever you'd call it, they're connected, similar people and eventually similar tech. For my own head canon at least for STO after the Terran Rebellion they fell back into being the Terran Empire, and sent a few agents into the PU to steal tech secrets, thus by the time of STO they have rebuilt the Terran Starfleet with similar ships, but being imperialistic and military focused the shapes may look similar, but can't match up to modern Starfleet ships, essentially Starfleet focuses on science while the Terrans focus mostly on whatever can make their ships weapons more powerful, thus why hey instead maybe focus on mass producing ships rather then making them diverse in capability like Starfleet. There also in STD was mentioned by Empress Georgiou that the info about the Prime Timeline was top secret, so maybe they reversed the tech of the Defiant and destroyed it. Eventually they'd make Connies by the time of Kirk and the Enterprise.
Given how they were on top for so long, it makes sense for the Terran Empire to obtain something more advanced what they have once in a while to move their tech tree forward, and then become complacent again because they're winning anyways. Peoples/empires with superiority complexes tend to fall into thinking that nothing could possibly be better than what they have so they fall into complacency and end up becoming easy prey for smaller but more dynamic powers, e.g. 19th century China.
I absolutely agree with this; however, I also hate it, because how would planetary and interstellar civilizations rise up in a universe like this? A humanity as brutal as the MU version should’ve never gotten around to doing anything substantial beyond nuking the Earth dead at the end of WWIII. Still, your idea fits pretty dang well; hell, it even helps explain how Spock’s rebellion paved the way for the Terrans defeat. With how the Empire and Federation were apparently at equal tech during TOS, the Empire probably began to fall behind the Federation, technology-wise, during the TOS movies, and most certainly by the time the Federation Excelsiors had become the backbone of Starfleet.
As much as I like the Mirror Universe, there is a part of me that feels that in any realistic Mirror Universe, the ship design would be entirely different. What I would like to see the current stewards of the franchise develop is a limited series where they really go all out on designing a Terran Empire that has a genuinely unique look and feel.
@@cmj0929 IMO they should still have the basic appearance of the federation starfleet ships but distorted with a much smaller disc section but more prominent weapons to reflect the focus on combat over exploration. Maybe use proportions closer to the classic Klingon D7 with a small command section and large primary hull.
In beta canon, the Terrans eventually form "Memory Omega". Something like Memory Alpha combined with Section 31's secrecy, focus, and ruthlessness. They have archives of the Empire's collected scientific and technical knowledge. Along with all sorts of potent technologies they've collected from the prime and other mirror/alternate universes. Why waste resources researching all the optional sidequest technology tree stuff when you can just procure from others?
i think it’s interesting that the terran empire doesn’t drive its own technological progress, it’s only ever pillaging from others. the vulcan ship, both defiants, are ill gotten gains they didn’t make them themselves. their violent tendencies keep them from making real progress, only ever able to take from others.
Between the "acquisition" of the Constitution-class Defiant and the creation of the ISS Charon there had to be some level of advancement, especially with the massive size and usage of the "mycelial core" acting akin to a "solar ionization reactor" to power the ship and create artificial gravity
It's like bow I saw this thing wondering how Klingons even developed warp capability since Klingon society doesn't seem to value scientists and engineers. It ended up concluding that most likely Klingons reverse-emgineered a starship that ended up on Kronos somehow.
Probably why the terrible USS discovery looks like a federation ship and a Klingon ship did the nasty. Oh no, wait, I forgot, terrible discovery is supposedly set in the prime universe.
“In a Mirror Darkly” is probably the best Mirror Universe episode. Especially since they had to write it in a way that doesn’t contradict the timeline as the episode “Mirror, Mirror” was the first time the universes encountered each other
I'd like to think the bombing raid on the moon was against a resistance of peaceful humanity being snuffed out, led by a good counterpart to Terra Prime,led by a "good" Paxton or Daniel Greaves.
In which case mirror Terra Prime is much more powerful, since that was a full city on the Moon rather than an Orpheus-style mining colony and an Imperial capital ship was sent to deal with it.
All hail the great TYBERIOUS ! Great subtle acting made this episode a real treat that had me laughing especially when our host gets cut off.I sure hope we see him again as TYBERIOUS will find away to get back! Fantastic job by Tyler and the crew for a channel that will be legendary some day!!
Yeah, it's important to note that even if the Terrans were less innovative and scientific-minded than the Prime Timeline humanity, they would have needed to maintain some level of technological parity with the other regional powers, ideally by stealing, reverse-engineering and modifying their own tech to use against them. The Terrans would have used their Vulcan tech data to have a reliable and powerful tech base for a while, then they would learn and copy the things that their enemies did right to make their own forces more powerful. Most (not all, but a lot of the stuff that counts) of the tech that allows the United Earth and early Federation to survive and grow in power by contributions and cooperation of all the species would instead be made by stealing, reverse-engineering, combining and modifying xenos tech with their own. They would continue to do this, getting the tech of their slightly more powerful enemies until they eventually overwhelm them, until they bite off more than they can chew with the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. And it wasn't just the Alliance that was a problem for the Terrans, it was their comically-self-destructive societal norms. If the Terrans didn't spend so much time maneuvering, undermining, sabotaging, plotting and backstabbing each other, they would have presented a more cohesive and effective front against the known galaxy. Who knows how many possibly critical inventions, doctrines and discoveries remained unfulfilled because their architects were killed as part of the monthly coup or another, or to deny potential knowledge and resources to a rival political faction to the detriment of the entire Empire. Combine that with Emperor Spock's demilitarization efforts and radical reforms which kind of defanged the Empire and made it look weaker in the eyes of its rivals (IIRC there was a Beta Canon source that stated how in the MU version of Khitomer, the Klingons and Romulans apparently both offered military alliances with the Terrans in some capacity but Spock turned them down and counteroffered peace treaties, and he also decommissioned projects like Genesis out a fear of an arms race (which honestly would have forced the Terrans to get their shit together for at least a while). By this point, the Empire had lost what prominence and respect from the other powers as a military threat (meaning they would be more opportunistic at staking claims to Terran space instead of leaving the psychos alone) and various political groups within the Empire, those for and against Spock's policies and others just trying to take advantage of the chaos, would tear the Empire apart just as much as the superior military force of the KCA.
Great video, Tiberius. It's always a fun treat visiting the mirror universe. Though every time I learn about their history I can't help but wonder if we've been living in it all along. Like the Bad Religion song, "Atheist Peace" claims, "No progress ever came from war, only a false sense of increase."
We haven't, yes there is war still in our world, but often it's for some logical reason, even if the aggressor has to make up a reason, most people in our world don't care for war. It's different for the Mirror Universe as they have developed a culture of war, betrayals and dealings are a common place, if someone stands in your way to power eliminate them. We even see that it's ingrained in them as in DS9 Terrans are still pretty violent even when they're enslaved by their conquerors.
Hmm the radar screens aircraft controlers use following everything from spaceships to aircraft say that's bull, not to mention how that device that was made to track and warn of incoming aircraft in the battle of Brittan, and to track and put down U boats was used in early detection radars to Deter the russians during the nuclear age from attempting a first strike which with how crazy they were, where their premier came over here and went from New York to cali, said to his people, how did they move all the cars from new york to cali so quickly in the 60's was a very good thing, as coulda woulda shouda, the speculators can claim everything but the only thing they know is dick.
I know nuclear war happened in the Mirror Universe as well, but I like to think that in the 90s, after forcing Khan's forces off of Earth, the Terran Empire united itself and never went into an all out nuclear conflict, just large yield bombs dropped maybe twenty years later. It'd make sense from a military perspective, as the Terran Empire should be ahead of in terms of technology by at least a decade, without the inhibitions of destroying the planet like we would. I'd imagine 99% of animals and very little plant life exist on Terran Earth in canon, despite what we see in various comics over the years. I also think Terran Starships should be way more powerful than Federation starships as well, due to constant cosmic warfare, even with shortcuts. NX class ships are only as powerful as they are though, due to shortcuts by absorbing tech from all the other subjugated races the Empire has conquered. Its all so fascinating though, as the Terran Empire, despite how often its written about in modern Star Trek compared to past shows, comics, etc, remains unexplored in canon. Sure IDW did a mirror universe arc but that doesn't make it canon. Great video as always. Been watching for a while. Mostly lurked until this wall of text.
Mean the split happens at Cochrane, he built the Warp Engine to have a way off the wartorn planet, so whilst you do write a good point it's a different timeline than the mirror one, The main reason for the Tech disparity is Vulcan tech, the Vulcan's really held us back in the mainline, with the NX being quite limited for what could've been, meanwhile the Mirror universe could reverse engineer a Vulcan ship and capture the knowledge held within
someone please explain to me where that clip came from, like did he just guess the mycelial network before the show came out? I remember how he called 1 other thing and was doing it with this, I think it was during picard. did I guess anywhere close?
Thank you for talking about the Mirror Universe @OrangeRivier I love the Mirror Universe so much. It's my favorite. I know others hated it, but I loved the first season of Discovery because of the Mirror Universe for most of the the season.
Scientific developments drive military developments too. Fritz Haber figured out how to capture atmospheric nitrogen as ammonia, making the mass manufacture of synthetic fertilizers feasible. It also made possible cheaper high explosives though.
You left out the medical advances, take the two world wars. We got anti-biotics and reconstructive surgery. A soldier who gets sick and recovers is often a soldier who can fight again, a soldier who does not die form wounds, infection, or lose limbs, may also receiver to fight again
The Terrans also stole technology... not just from that first initial Vulcan ship. They absorbed the Vulcans too, leaving them with a giant head-start over Prime Universe Federation equals as well. I am perplexed as to why they didn't commonly use cloaking technology by their DS9 era. They had it for generations, by then... did they lose it? Terran scientists were put to work with the same brutality as scientists held hostage by Klingons, produce or suffer (or die). And, didn't they have nothing against their augmented human programs? I can imagine Khan and his people being high-level Terran officers, scientists, and people of power... even after the failed rebellion of the augmented humans. Their lack of ethics, like the Nazi scientists, would give them an explosive boon in potential technological development... especially in a space-faring era where many dying from that would not really cause unreplaceable life loss.
Yeah, in a Terran universe, I could potentially see the Augments either winning the Eugenics wars to take the head of the Empire, or maybe they were overwhelmed by the baseline Terrans because they were far more warlike and militarized than Prime humanity. But yeah, genetic augmentation would definitely be a thing in the TE, especially considering how strong Vulcans and Klingons are compared to humans, the supremacist Terrans would definitely not stand for that. As for cloaking tehcnology, oh my God this NEEDS to be talked about more! In a Mirror Darkly shows us that the TE had access and understanding of Suliban cloaking tech, which while it probably was less effective than contemporary Romulan cloaking tech, it could do this little quirky thing called FIRING WHILE CLOAKED. This was clearly shown to be the case when the ISS Enterprise was trapped in a Tholian web and fired some torpedoes at it and launched escape pods. That is such a groundbreaking advantage, especially in the Enterprise-era, that in any universe where common sense held just a little more sway than plot demands, the TE would have that tech equipped as commonplace, with various methods to keep ambitious captains from going rogue by having secret overrides and enforcement personnel a la Soviet commissars to keep things in line. And whatsmore, the MU would never have had a Treaty of Algeron, so nothing stopping the Terrans from using cloaks as mcuh as they please before their defeat by the KCA.
@@fadelsukoco3092 Exactly. I think that the TE were nerfed a bit just so the "white hat" good Federation of the prime universe would not seem so stupid in its policies... either that or lazy writing. Oh, and it was implied that their cloak was perfect and totally trusted... it was the Tholians reverse-engineering the gear on the captured future Earth ship that let them detect it. The TU also absorbed the Yridians, who also had their own cloaking technology too... in part because they were a culture of intelligence operatives (so it was probably stolen in bits from many stellar powers).
With the terrans they wouldn't be confined by laws or regulations about taking technology from any species which would explain why some of their stuff was more advanced they weren't held back by anyone
I guess he never read "Rise Like Lions". In that book, it follows the Terran Rebels in their eventual over throw of the Klingon Cardassian Alliance with the help of Barkley and the scientists of the Daystrom project that Spock set up with Dr Marcus prior to the fall of the Terran Empire.
War advances technology in the same way as fire advances firefighting or in the same way as an epidemic advances medical science. Paraphrasing McCoys words from the Omega Glory, If you ancestors fought a biological war, the result might be that the survivors had a longer life expectancy, but I hardly consider it worth it.
Everybody's a weak victim anymore. Wouldn't last 3 seconds in the terran empire. They'd ask you your pronouns while watching you die from a dagger in your gut
“War is good for business” and “peace is good for business” sounds like something a Ferengi would say. I’m pretty sure those are both rules of acquisition.
Indeed they are :0 Yeah I didn't want to give the impression that I was trying to deny that wars _have_ brought forward some technologies, like how radar influenced the science of the earliest transistors. But peace also brings stability, and tech can flourish in those times too.
A Terran Constitution Class should look a bit different from a Federation Constitution Class and not just a paint job. The Terran NX class should look menacing compared to the Pre Federations NX Class, for one if a time line is completely different the designs of the starships should be different as well, well at least the Terran NX bridge was more detailed with more screens.
The Constitution class looking the same makes sense to some degree since the Empire just reverse engineered the prime universe Defiant. But since the NX class is implied to have been completely created then yeah it makes no sense that it's essentially identical.
War does the same thing for technology as environmental change does for evolution. It creates a pressure. If there is a drought, evolution will select creatures that need less water. If war creates the need to kill at a distance, arrows will be replaced by guns. It is no more complicated than that.
My head canon is Mirror Stamets experiments weakening the barriers between universes is how the Earth's in Miri, Bread and Circuses, and Omega Glory happened. They got stuck in the Prime universe.
the most important factors why war accelerates research is not the war itself, but the fact that many corners that otherwise would be needed simply cut. even more beneficial is the field test. if you design a new plane today, it will be made with one or two prototype and than tested on those for a few years, in a war, you make dozens of variant and whatnot, tested in actual scenarios and war, so the problems pop up and solved much faster. during wwii nearly three distinct new fighter generation researched and put into service (not clear and perfect, but almost), in 1990-2020 we went from late fourth gen fighters to early fifth gen fighters, less than a single generation.
Another great episode from OrangeRiver! Bravo! But maaaaaaan do I hate the Mirror Universe! So much hand waving, so many convenient coiencidences and so many ridiculous plot holes!
@@subraxas haha you rock thank you! I was literally looking for this origin story to the meme. he also called 1 other thing he was using as a meme clip, was just like it.
I have a question, and sorry if this isn't relevant to the video, but I was wondering if you'd happen to know if and when Paramount+ would be coming to PS5? I used to watch it on PS4, and was watching Discovery until I got the PS5 as to move on to the next, but found that it's not on there.
So does the Kelvin universe have a Dark Mirror as well? Does the Kelvin universe Dark Mirror have it's own Khan? Would it be the mirror of Enterprise, as the timeline divergence happened between the series and movies. Mixing alternate universes and time travel, what next? I'm gonna stop thinking about it, I'm getting a headache.
great video. i believe the fundamental question about star trek lore is how humanity ditched its fascination with race and religion to unite as one. been the burning question i have been waiting for years for an answer
Kinda lame response but I believe the Eugenics War/WWIII was the final punch that drove humanity to it's limit in terms of cruelty and the maximization of suffering that made most humans stop for a second and think "wait, we should do better"
@@timothyhiggins8934 Unfortunately, in the Trek Universe it's shown that the World Wars, The Eugenics War and other events such as the Bell Riots were necessary for the realization and ultimately the formation of the Federation
I love the notion there's a secret, Other Self of us in a mirror universe that's completely lethal and dangerous. Also, did you get your jacket at Members Only? 😉
Interesting that you mention eugenics being discredited. I attended a bioethics conference in college in which it was argued that the rejection of eugenics was a milestone in ethics: a scientifically valid theory that was rejected almost entirely because the diwnsides were regarded eventually with widespread revulsion. Not to advocate for eugenics, but there is little doubt that sekective breeding *could* be successfully applied to humanity. There are multiple problems with it, though. Some are purely scientific, such as the fact that humans simply are not ideal for such a project since it would likely take hundreds of years. But ww2 also exposed ethical usages. Namely what traits does the "udeal" human have and who gets to decide.
What I don't get is why 22nd Century Terrans didn't have deflector shields. They absorbed Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite, and Denobulan technology which all had deflector shields.
Well i think there is a difference between real world and trek universe. But in war time research and development in all technology or research fields gets greater investment, and television or communications technology actually was advanced not slowed, the internet and computers either created for the war , or improved, or the reconstruction after the war expended the economy and development of multiple sectors, intelligence or great minds were cultivated , even basic education was a cold war investment. The American education system was a strategic investment to produce smarter citizens to out think Soviet citizens. Weather forecasting , commercial airlines, shipbuilding, cars , roads , medical technologies, oil refineries, or using television technology to attempt to control aircraft. ( like drones ) the space race science came from ww2 missile programs, and modern telecommunications satellites were developed to allow communication between earth and space craft. ( telestar ) which allowed for live world wide tv broadcasts, look at the tanks and aircraft in ww2 how many new and improved versions of them were produced in so short a time period, in some you had seven generations of the same aircraft in that time , ( 1939/40 spitfire vs 1945 spitfire) or similar aircraft were radically different. Or superior. The problem with the mirror universe is they gain alien or future advanced technology on more than one occasion, and they maintained a state of perpetual war or a war machine, its like the Soviet union they maintained a war machine before during and after ww2 and then during the cold war , and it hurt them economicly , yet they were still producing advanced technology, but the military was to big and expensive. The terrens did naturally develop key technologies. Although the almost certainly reverse engineered and developed new human technology. But look at ww2 60 plus million deaths, but the population doubled ( baby boom ) and ten years later an economic miracle had occurred. ( especially Germany and Japan) Russia was a under developed power that became a superpower. There is an element of darwinism at play , and the survivors are stronger than before. We can only speculate on what the dead may have achieved but we know what the survivors and thier children achieved. But honestly every major war in any ear advanced technology and civilisation. Or natral disasters or medical catastrophes. Earthquakes produce better buildings ect .
An entirely different theoretical leap: We are, in fact, in the mirror universe. The entire Star Trek franchise is an operation of Prime 31, mirror tal shi'ar, temporal agents with you know, classified information or whatever to indoctrinate us to change the timeline to create a new UFP in this universe after some calamity (perhaps the entire Picard show is the premonition of that catastrophy 🤣) occurs in what the fiction tells us is the 'prime' universe... whoa man...
Amazing how both main time line Federation and alternate Mirror Imperium are dominated by the old US, at least in the naming of ships, location of Starfleet HQ, etc., with a few bones tossed to "allies"/"subjects" to keep them quiet.
The split happens shortly after Cochrane's first Warp journey, so it makes sense for them to roughly start the same way, US based and similar conventions towards naming,
@@Voron_Aggrav simpek the starting credits disprove tgat with a terran flag on the moon and the fact mirror Zephrane shotguns the Vulcan says this eas established far before that.
This mirror universe thing confuses me. Like, you have TOS, Discovery, Strange New Worlds, and Enterprise all happening at roughly the same time yet all have vastly different political leaders. Could such a civilization as volatile as theirs be so powerful?
ENT is set a full century before TOS. The other shows are nominally set decades apart from each other. Mostly. Haven't you seen vastly different political leaders come and go over recent years and decades?
The mirror timeline does tend to show the faults of it's ways in the comparison between ENT and TOS and even more so towards DS9 and TNG, having the massive superiority of ENT mirror universe be virtually gone a century later, and during DS-9 it's capabilities where comparable to main timeline technology
@@Voron_Aggrav Trek has interacted with countless other realities, parallels, timelines, histories, futures. And each of these probably has a unique mirror. At least some of the mirror episodes probably involve different mirrors, it seems unlikely they'd keep connecting with exactly one.
One thing I am disappointed about, is you failed to mention how Mirror NX-Battleships did lack proper radiation shielding on their warp cores... this would to me at least, be a perfect example of where warfare caused some technology to be lacking.
I believe that war is good for technological progress, possibly even sociological progress. Without a war economy, we would have never devoted the massive amount of resources to R&D that we did. However, I don't want to experience war either. Something like the cold war might be best for technological progress. Enormous motivation to work on R&D, but no actual shooting war that will destroy progress.
Fuck that. The computer may have been invented to crack Nazi codes, but the transistor was invented in peacetime. War economies are only really good for waging war. Regearing to do something actually beneficial after the war ends is so difficult that the United States never actually did it. We just kept fighting wars to keep spending the bullets we were making, instead of melting those bullets into literally anything else. How many potential Einsteins or Borlaugs have bled out on the street in some redlined ghetto because we decided to spend our resources on redlining and ghettoizing brown people? What if, instead, we had simply not done that?
Peace never drives advancement as much as war does. During peace, theres far too many restrictions by government to advance effectively. Could peace prove advantageous? Absolutely if everything was ideal enough that people in power would not restrain advancement to keep their power. But that almost never happens. Plus you have to have a need for something for there to be the proper motivation to solve a given problem. Necessity is the mother of all invention. In peace, that necessity is far less, than is often the case in war, when all forces are working towards a common objective. Survival. And then, victory. Its after war that advancement made during war, are too well known to be covered up, and then enter society. Improving the lives of citizens, until they inevitably forget the lessons learned and fall back into complacency. That is, for the victors. For the losers in war, progress can be constrained further, as even if there are advances during war, if they loose, they may lack the man power and the resources to use any technology later on, after war ends. Even if they developed new advancements during war. That is of theres anyone left to use advancements at all. War can be a great boon for the advancement of technology and other advancements if you win. But it can be a civilization ender if serious enough, and you loose. High risk, high reward potential. It gets the restrictive forces out of the way that constrain society. In order for those forces to save their skins, but it can also go very badly for a lot of people. And you have to survive it to enjoy the benefits, even if your side wins. But it was the driving force for most of our advancements. Advancements I do not believe we would have necessarily seen. Not until war made them necessary. Even mass assembly being adopted mainstream, was sparked by war.
I guess then in that case a perpetual state of Cold War would be optimal for the Mirror universe with relatively minor proxy wars happening to test the various technologies and doctrines of each faction without it escalating into MAD and mitigating potential casualties while keeping everyone paranoid and focused enough to advance and be ordered, even if just for the sake of not being outpaced by their enemies.
@@fadelsukoco3092 Actually cold wars are a bit of a wierd state of affairs. The people who keep things surpressed in peace, don't feel as threatened, and so many restrictions continue. What does happen to take place is slow advancements in certain technologies based on the type of threat that is feared. Cold wars happen to have no massive battles that require technologies being developed that would have a wide scale impact. As its cold, no active war efforts that are actual admitted to. Instead you see things like spy tech, surveillance, satellite tech, missle and missle defense, military readiness, and explosive tech for use in confined altercations that can be denied.. gaining most of the advances. Those do trickle down eventually, but being their nature is one of secrecy, they don't filter down as quickly or readily as technology developed in open warfare. As they arent seen by as many people. And their existence is kept a highly guarded secret until they find something better.
biggest issiue with the mirror is how can throu all those times the same person? i mean its so violent and deadly how can there be still a mirror sisko, after 200 years diffrent history? I can agree that we lost much in sienc throu both wars, simply planes were not used that widly and would be unusfull, also cars, almost every thing you said was better in all aspects after the war plus we also got female hygen artiekl(tampon) and many many ways in improving medical suppurt and dont forget FANTA
exotic matter isn't really a scientific basis, it is mostly use when you need something that does what you want, like, "if a certain particle exist, we could go back in time with a spoon", saying "it harvest exotic energy" means "it does stuff we cant explain"
Not really, no. Exotic matter is an umbrella term that includes a variety of things--some theoretical, yes, but others experimentally confirmed in the lab
It should be noted that federation weapons tech is more advanced than the KCA cause words officers reports that it is equipped with "some kind of improved photon torpedoes" suggesting they may not have quamtum torpedoes
The invicible reason from 40k is over 26 km long and there where probally a few houndred ships of its class even though they where smaller at only 20 km
If you ever read the novel "StarChild: A Science Fiction Romance Adventure Revised" Womankindss first starship is able to travel anywhere in the galaxy between 6 days and a little under a month using "Ultradrive".
Technolgy develops based on pressure. Is there a problem we need to solve? Can I benefit from solving it? How do I get the resources to perform research and devlopment? ect. So government research is one line and private civil research is the other line. The brain pool is the same and people transfer in between. Both branches build off of prior developments. Also once you reach a certain level of economic infrastructure to support constant R&D and there is competition advancement becomes faster. The TE is shown as stagnant because it needed to be for the purposes of the story. But in reality it would have faced pressure to adapt and improve due to facing stronger enemies earlier. For whatever reason so many people seem to survive long enough to produce the exact same pairings and copulate the exact same time to breed the exact same people for generations. Meaning they have the same level of sentient resources to work from for adaptation as Prime universe, just different pressures and a higher base technological foundation. Only absolute defeat should set them back. Which means the stagnation between getting Archer's Defiant and the TOS series has to be either no wars with high level enemies or recovery from a catastrophic defeat. Out of Universe is because TOS establish TMU with that technology level so the writers have to artificially slow the speed of improvement.
Changing the timeline of nuclear weapons development can be very dangerous because it was the rejection of Douglas MacArthur's nuclear escalation plan for the Korean War after the Chinese entered the conflict which established nukes as not to be used lightly. Under different circumstances an attack like that may have been launched and shown the world that nukes are a legitimate battlefield weapon on Earth rather than merely a political tool.
Another interesting question to consider...do you think that, after a presumably successful Terran Rebellion, the Terrans were more likely to a) recreate the Terran Empire in its old, fascistic ways--regarding Spock's reforms as a mistake--as is broadly the case in Star Trek Online; or b) form a sort of "Galactic Republic" akin to the Federation as is the case in the Novelverse?
Terrans got 80's of education of just how much Xenos don't like them. I think they'd come back to Imperial ways with a vengeance.
In my opinion, I think they would likely have started out as a republic-like government, but then slowly transitioned back to their old fascistic habits at some point.
based on DS9, I'd have said that the Terrans are able to establish some kind of federal republic to unite their worlds that is much less perfect or ambitious than the Federation. Based on Discovery.... I'm less hopeful
I'd like to see a militant capitalist empire lol
The natural state of humanity is fascist or worse. It has only been in the last few of centuries that has changed. I am not hopeful that it can be maintained for long. What is interesting, examining all of the different races we have seen in the Star Trek Universe, the two with the best hope for long lasting stable continuation are the Klingons and the Ferengi and both for exactly opposite reasons. The Klingons are centrally controlled with all owing allegiance to their leader. That is very stable. The Feringi are completely decentralized with all owing allegiance to themselves. That is also very stable as the "Unseen Hand" guides everything. From the rules of Acquisition "Peace is good for trade." Given the choice, Terran, Klingon, Ferengi I would choose Ferengi.
OF COURSE you have to deliver this video as your Mirror Universe self.
Thank you for not letting us down
Members Only is huge in the mirror universe I see!
Another great video. "In a Mirror Darkly" is one of Enterprise's best episodes.
To your point that war accelerates progress: both the conflicts Iraq and Afghanistan have fostered advances in medicine and rehabilitation vis-à-vis prosthetics.
Accept that those were made by the US and allies, we live in a world where yes there is war, but it's not as common as it used to be, countries don't usually need to fight over resources and most of our modern nations aren't warlike. Unlike the Terran Empire, war is the very essence of their existence, war, and constant betrayal will make a society always looking for a fight, whether it's killin someone above you to advance your own position, or the Terran Empire looking to conquer a neighbor, even when the Terrens were Rebels in DS9 you could still see that aspect of betrayal and violence, just often it was focused enough t their enslavers to keep from fighting each other much.
By stealing tech. But to be clear, the writers for the most part (and seemingly accidentally) have shown the Mirror universe to be always falling behind, needing massive tech infusions to first surpass, then keep up, then inevitably fall behind the Prime timeline. They get Vulcan tech but almost 100 years later are still fielding plain NX's. Maybe with shields and better weapons but still no match for a Prime Connie...with an untrained, skeleton crew and itself likely suffering damage from Gorn sabotage, Tholian salvage attempts, transporting to another dimension and time, and whatever damage was incurred when the original crew violently killed each other. Speaking of that TOS-era Defiant, 100+ years later and the Terran Empire more or less field the same ship, with no real indication of any superiority to the Prime version. We see the nadir of this cycle where a single scrap-built TNG-era Defiant class with a rookie crew (but obviously boss captain) could basically solo an entire Mirror fleet. Almost as if creating a homicidally competitive society might drive you to make a better phaser today....but murders all the contemplative sorts of people that you need to invent a quantum torpedo tomorrow.
Constant warfare keeps you sharp, but also attrition can kill your brightest minds. Plus their very society is built upon selfish backstabbing your way to the top so if engineers and scientists have that mentality its no surprise they fall behind after every technological boon via theft. A lot of brilliance snuffed out due to ambition. Plus the actual reason is budget; they can reuse the same models a the current series they are in to keep budgets down.
@@hamanu666 Oh sure, imagine a Mirror Albert Einstein...killed by agents of His Majesty's secret service for daring to upend the Newtonian (and British) physics model especially if in service of a greater German Empire. It's the same reason I think the Klingons keeping up with the Federation for centuries doesn't work. If you live in a society where someone can end a debate by slipping a knife into your guts, your brainy folks over the long-term aren't gonna be able to upend the established models (and their associated political interests) as often as they should. And not because they are nerds but when you live by the sword, you die by the sword, ie whether they are stronger, they can hire stronger people, or just get lucky.
I also wonder about that first part. There's a reason armies have long rotated troops from frontline or even active duty to keep them fresh. Constant danger is tiring at the very least and if you have one eye on your back at all times you are missing the world right in front of you. A real problem for scientists trying to understand it.
I like to sum it up as the MU being fated to follow similar paths as the PU, we know no matter what history may be different there's often still a Mirror version born. Other timelines should logically have different people born since history is different, but it's clear no matter what happens the MU in some aspects follows similar patterns to the PU, thus it means they I guess "quantumly" linked or what ever you'd call it, they're connected, similar people and eventually similar tech. For my own head canon at least for STO after the Terran Rebellion they fell back into being the Terran Empire, and sent a few agents into the PU to steal tech secrets, thus by the time of STO they have rebuilt the Terran Starfleet with similar ships, but being imperialistic and military focused the shapes may look similar, but can't match up to modern Starfleet ships, essentially Starfleet focuses on science while the Terrans focus mostly on whatever can make their ships weapons more powerful, thus why hey instead maybe focus on mass producing ships rather then making them diverse in capability like Starfleet. There also in STD was mentioned by Empress Georgiou that the info about the Prime Timeline was top secret, so maybe they reversed the tech of the Defiant and destroyed it. Eventually they'd make Connies by the time of Kirk and the Enterprise.
Given how they were on top for so long, it makes sense for the Terran Empire to obtain something more advanced what they have once in a while to move their tech tree forward, and then become complacent again because they're winning anyways.
Peoples/empires with superiority complexes tend to fall into thinking that nothing could possibly be better than what they have so they fall into complacency and end up becoming easy prey for smaller but more dynamic powers, e.g. 19th century China.
I absolutely agree with this; however, I also hate it, because how would planetary and interstellar civilizations rise up in a universe like this? A humanity as brutal as the MU version should’ve never gotten around to doing anything substantial beyond nuking the Earth dead at the end of WWIII.
Still, your idea fits pretty dang well; hell, it even helps explain how Spock’s rebellion paved the way for the Terrans defeat. With how the Empire and Federation were apparently at equal tech during TOS, the Empire probably began to fall behind the Federation, technology-wise, during the TOS movies, and most certainly by the time the Federation Excelsiors had become the backbone of Starfleet.
As much as I like the Mirror Universe, there is a part of me that feels that in any realistic Mirror Universe, the ship design would be entirely different. What I would like to see the current stewards of the franchise develop is a limited series where they really go all out on designing a Terran Empire that has a genuinely unique look and feel.
It would probably be something along the lines of either the Stargate human ships or Halo human ships tbh
@@cmj0929 IMO they should still have the basic appearance of the federation starfleet ships but distorted with a much smaller disc section but more prominent weapons to reflect the focus on combat over exploration. Maybe use proportions closer to the classic Klingon D7 with a small command section and large primary hull.
I say the Terran universe gets the ST:D designs, and the prime universe gets the old designs.
I think the similarities makes it scarier that we in the “prime” universe are so like our Mirror counterparts and how much we could end up like them.😊
Also the people would by necessity be different. Kill one person in the Cochrane era and the consequences would cascade down through history.
Nice use of the Section 31 leather garb for this video...
In beta canon, the Terrans eventually form "Memory Omega". Something like Memory Alpha combined with Section 31's secrecy, focus, and ruthlessness.
They have archives of the Empire's collected scientific and technical knowledge. Along with all sorts of potent technologies they've collected from the prime and other mirror/alternate universes.
Why waste resources researching all the optional sidequest technology tree stuff when you can just procure from others?
i think it’s interesting that the terran empire doesn’t drive its own technological progress, it’s only ever pillaging from others. the vulcan ship, both defiants, are ill gotten gains they didn’t make them themselves. their violent tendencies keep them from making real progress, only ever able to take from others.
just like the klingons but better.
Between the "acquisition" of the Constitution-class Defiant and the creation of the ISS Charon there had to be some level of advancement, especially with the massive size and usage of the "mycelial core" acting akin to a "solar ionization reactor" to power the ship and create artificial gravity
It's like bow I saw this thing wondering how Klingons even developed warp capability since Klingon society doesn't seem to value scientists and engineers. It ended up concluding that most likely Klingons reverse-emgineered a starship that ended up on Kronos somehow.
Just like the Kingons and Kazon
Probably why the terrible USS discovery looks like a federation ship and a Klingon ship did the nasty.
Oh no, wait, I forgot, terrible discovery is supposedly set in the prime universe.
“In a Mirror Darkly” is probably the best Mirror Universe episode. Especially since they had to write it in a way that doesn’t contradict the timeline as the episode “Mirror, Mirror” was the first time the universes encountered each other
In a Mirror Darkly was an awesome episode! Amd the cast seemed to ne having a great time making the epusode!
I'd like to think the bombing raid on the moon was against a resistance of peaceful humanity being snuffed out, led by a good counterpart to Terra Prime,led by a "good" Paxton or Daniel Greaves.
In which case mirror Terra Prime is much more powerful, since that was a full city on the Moon rather than an Orpheus-style mining colony and an Imperial capital ship was sent to deal with it.
You should know I only subscribed for more mirror universe OrangeRiver. For the empire!
You ever notice how the Charon design reminds me of the Doomsday Machine
All hail the great TYBERIOUS ! Great subtle acting made this episode a real treat that had me laughing especially when our host gets cut off.I sure hope we see him again as TYBERIOUS will find away to get back! Fantastic job by Tyler and the crew for a channel that will be legendary some day!!
Yeah I enjoyed the Terran Tyler character 😁
When I see the Terran Empire in my recommended list, I click. 😜
hell yeah
Orangeriver, his video released!
Ive been looking forward to this
That slight smirk at 1:01....
Another great video dude on of my faves of your recent videos so far.
Thank you Saxon!
What I like about these videos. Is Hallie you both went out the positives and the negatives of the subject at hand. And he has valid points on both.
If you take that the vulcans held earth back 100 years in warp tech , the terrens would of had no such limitations on them
Yeah, it's important to note that even if the Terrans were less innovative and scientific-minded than the Prime Timeline humanity, they would have needed to maintain some level of technological parity with the other regional powers, ideally by stealing, reverse-engineering and modifying their own tech to use against them. The Terrans would have used their Vulcan tech data to have a reliable and powerful tech base for a while, then they would learn and copy the things that their enemies did right to make their own forces more powerful. Most (not all, but a lot of the stuff that counts) of the tech that allows the United Earth and early Federation to survive and grow in power by contributions and cooperation of all the species would instead be made by stealing, reverse-engineering, combining and modifying xenos tech with their own. They would continue to do this, getting the tech of their slightly more powerful enemies until they eventually overwhelm them, until they bite off more than they can chew with the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance.
And it wasn't just the Alliance that was a problem for the Terrans, it was their comically-self-destructive societal norms. If the Terrans didn't spend so much time maneuvering, undermining, sabotaging, plotting and backstabbing each other, they would have presented a more cohesive and effective front against the known galaxy. Who knows how many possibly critical inventions, doctrines and discoveries remained unfulfilled because their architects were killed as part of the monthly coup or another, or to deny potential knowledge and resources to a rival political faction to the detriment of the entire Empire. Combine that with Emperor Spock's demilitarization efforts and radical reforms which kind of defanged the Empire and made it look weaker in the eyes of its rivals (IIRC there was a Beta Canon source that stated how in the MU version of Khitomer, the Klingons and Romulans apparently both offered military alliances with the Terrans in some capacity but Spock turned them down and counteroffered peace treaties, and he also decommissioned projects like Genesis out a fear of an arms race (which honestly would have forced the Terrans to get their shit together for at least a while). By this point, the Empire had lost what prominence and respect from the other powers as a military threat (meaning they would be more opportunistic at staking claims to Terran space instead of leaving the psychos alone) and various political groups within the Empire, those for and against Spock's policies and others just trying to take advantage of the chaos, would tear the Empire apart just as much as the superior military force of the KCA.
Amazing information and very enlightening. Keep it up
hey Tyberius! Great episode! Long Live the Empire!
😆 YEEES!! The mycelial network!!
Remember in prime universe the vulcans hampered human development. Mirror this is not an issue
Great video, Tiberius. It's always a fun treat visiting the mirror universe. Though every time I learn about their history I can't help but wonder if we've been living in it all along.
Like the Bad Religion song, "Atheist Peace" claims, "No progress ever came from war, only a false sense of increase."
Man I love Bad Religion!👍👍👍
@@djcjr1x1 They're my favorite band!
Also yes we are the Terrans, I'm more convinced every day.😒
We haven't, yes there is war still in our world, but often it's for some logical reason, even if the aggressor has to make up a reason, most people in our world don't care for war. It's different for the Mirror Universe as they have developed a culture of war, betrayals and dealings are a common place, if someone stands in your way to power eliminate them. We even see that it's ingrained in them as in DS9 Terrans are still pretty violent even when they're enslaved by their conquerors.
Hmm the radar screens aircraft controlers use following everything from spaceships to aircraft say that's bull, not to mention how that device that was made to track and warn of incoming aircraft in the battle of Brittan, and to track and put down U boats was used in early detection radars to Deter the russians during the nuclear age from attempting a first strike
which with how crazy they were, where their premier came over here and went from New York to cali, said to his people, how did they move all the cars from new york to cali so quickly in the 60's
was a very good thing, as coulda woulda shouda, the speculators can claim everything but the only thing they know is dick.
Tiberus is such a cool name
Look up the roman empire tiberius 😂
Tiberius, is so handsome. It was hard to focus on the great info.
☺
Great video thank you so much please keep up your amazing world stay safe entleaf long and prosper thank you
I love the fact that DS9 get more and more traction every year.
I know nuclear war happened in the Mirror Universe as well, but I like to think that in the 90s, after forcing Khan's forces off of Earth, the Terran Empire united itself and never went into an all out nuclear conflict, just large yield bombs dropped maybe twenty years later. It'd make sense from a military perspective, as the Terran Empire should be ahead of in terms of technology by at least a decade, without the inhibitions of destroying the planet like we would. I'd imagine 99% of animals and very little plant life exist on Terran Earth in canon, despite what we see in various comics over the years. I also think Terran Starships should be way more powerful than Federation starships as well, due to constant cosmic warfare, even with shortcuts. NX class ships are only as powerful as they are though, due to shortcuts by absorbing tech from all the other subjugated races the Empire has conquered. Its all so fascinating though, as the Terran Empire, despite how often its written about in modern Star Trek compared to past shows, comics, etc, remains unexplored in canon. Sure IDW did a mirror universe arc but that doesn't make it canon. Great video as always. Been watching for a while. Mostly lurked until this wall of text.
Mean the split happens at Cochrane, he built the Warp Engine to have a way off the wartorn planet, so whilst you do write a good point it's a different timeline than the mirror one,
The main reason for the Tech disparity is Vulcan tech, the Vulcan's really held us back in the mainline, with the NX being quite limited for what could've been, meanwhile the Mirror universe could reverse engineer a Vulcan ship and capture the knowledge held within
Ahh yes, the modern classic mycelial network meme is greatly cherished
someone please explain to me where that clip came from, like did he just guess the mycelial network before the show came out? I remember how he called 1 other thing and was doing it with this, I think it was during picard. did I guess anywhere close?
Great episode
Thank you for talking about the Mirror Universe @OrangeRivier I love the Mirror Universe so much. It's my favorite. I know others hated it, but I loved the first season of Discovery because of the Mirror Universe for most of the the season.
Scientific developments drive military developments too.
Fritz Haber figured out how to capture atmospheric nitrogen as ammonia, making the mass manufacture of synthetic fertilizers feasible. It also made possible cheaper high explosives though.
I have a question. Looking at all the sci-fi shows.
Which one is more likely for future of humans of earth?
I am surprised you did not mention the advances in medicine, aviation, and electronics, which all czme about because of conflict.
I'm surprised they never named one of the NX class starships Buran and Ptichka after the Soviet shuttles
Why would they name them after Soviet ships? It's pretty obvious the US and Nazi Germany may be the Terran Empire's biggest influence.🤔😒
@@djcjr1x1 i mean in the Federation timeline, since the first six were named after NASA shuttles
I miss Eaglemoss models 🥺
@@kadmii Yes that makes sense In Federation timeline.
Why would they do that? The Terran Empire is fascist. They've probably erased all records of the Soviet Union.
You left out the medical advances, take the two world wars. We got anti-biotics and reconstructive surgery. A soldier who gets sick and recovers is often a soldier who can fight again, a soldier who does not die form wounds, infection, or lose limbs, may also receiver to fight again
Too many people associated with Star Trek Discovery have spent too much time in close proximity with mushrooms, if you get my meaning.
The Terrans also stole technology... not just from that first initial Vulcan ship. They absorbed the Vulcans too, leaving them with a giant head-start over Prime Universe Federation equals as well. I am perplexed as to why they didn't commonly use cloaking technology by their DS9 era. They had it for generations, by then... did they lose it? Terran scientists were put to work with the same brutality as scientists held hostage by Klingons, produce or suffer (or die). And, didn't they have nothing against their augmented human programs? I can imagine Khan and his people being high-level Terran officers, scientists, and people of power... even after the failed rebellion of the augmented humans. Their lack of ethics, like the Nazi scientists, would give them an explosive boon in potential technological development... especially in a space-faring era where many dying from that would not really cause unreplaceable life loss.
Yeah, in a Terran universe, I could potentially see the Augments either winning the Eugenics wars to take the head of the Empire, or maybe they were overwhelmed by the baseline Terrans because they were far more warlike and militarized than Prime humanity. But yeah, genetic augmentation would definitely be a thing in the TE, especially considering how strong Vulcans and Klingons are compared to humans, the supremacist Terrans would definitely not stand for that.
As for cloaking tehcnology, oh my God this NEEDS to be talked about more! In a Mirror Darkly shows us that the TE had access and understanding of Suliban cloaking tech, which while it probably was less effective than contemporary Romulan cloaking tech, it could do this little quirky thing called FIRING WHILE CLOAKED. This was clearly shown to be the case when the ISS Enterprise was trapped in a Tholian web and fired some torpedoes at it and launched escape pods. That is such a groundbreaking advantage, especially in the Enterprise-era, that in any universe where common sense held just a little more sway than plot demands, the TE would have that tech equipped as commonplace, with various methods to keep ambitious captains from going rogue by having secret overrides and enforcement personnel a la Soviet commissars to keep things in line. And whatsmore, the MU would never have had a Treaty of Algeron, so nothing stopping the Terrans from using cloaks as mcuh as they please before their defeat by the KCA.
@@fadelsukoco3092 Exactly. I think that the TE were nerfed a bit just so the "white hat" good Federation of the prime universe would not seem so stupid in its policies... either that or lazy writing. Oh, and it was implied that their cloak was perfect and totally trusted... it was the Tholians reverse-engineering the gear on the captured future Earth ship that let them detect it. The TU also absorbed the Yridians, who also had their own cloaking technology too... in part because they were a culture of intelligence operatives (so it was probably stolen in bits from many stellar powers).
Thank you Tiberius for your wisdom 😉
Fun stuff. You take so much time in designing and formulating your content. Thank you for inspiring me to re-watch so many episodes. Cheers
* slaps desk * the mycelial network!
With the terrans they wouldn't be confined by laws or regulations about taking technology from any species which would explain why some of their stuff was more advanced they weren't held back by anyone
I guess he never read "Rise Like Lions". In that book, it follows the Terran Rebels in their eventual over throw of the Klingon Cardassian Alliance with the help of Barkley and the scientists of the Daystrom project that Spock set up with Dr Marcus prior to the fall of the Terran Empire.
War advances technology in the same way as fire advances firefighting or in the same way as an epidemic advances medical science. Paraphrasing McCoys words from the Omega Glory, If you ancestors fought a biological war, the result might be that the survivors had a longer life expectancy, but I hardly consider it worth it.
So The Mirror Universe is just what will happen if things keep going the way they are.
Pretty much.
I personally, welcome our Autocratic overlords (please don't execute me for treason)
We are absolutely in the bad timeline.
Everybody's a weak victim anymore. Wouldn't last 3 seconds in the terran empire. They'd ask you your pronouns while watching you die from a dagger in your gut
Just wait for the quantum computer
“War is good for business” and “peace is good for business” sounds like something a Ferengi would say.
I’m pretty sure those are both rules of acquisition.
Indeed they are :0
Yeah I didn't want to give the impression that I was trying to deny that wars _have_ brought forward some technologies, like how radar influenced the science of the earliest transistors. But peace also brings stability, and tech can flourish in those times too.
A Terran Constitution Class should look a bit different from a Federation Constitution Class and not just a paint job. The Terran NX class should look menacing compared to the Pre Federations NX Class, for one if a time line is completely different the designs of the starships should be different as well, well at least the Terran NX bridge was more detailed with more screens.
The Constitution class looking the same makes sense to some degree since the Empire just reverse engineered the prime universe Defiant. But since the NX class is implied to have been completely created then yeah it makes no sense that it's essentially identical.
War does the same thing for technology as environmental change does for evolution. It creates a pressure. If there is a drought, evolution will select creatures that need less water. If war creates the need to kill at a distance, arrows will be replaced by guns. It is no more complicated than that.
Woah, they gave Riley command of the ISS Enterprise. That is absolutely beautiful
My head canon is Mirror Stamets experiments weakening the barriers between universes is how the Earth's in Miri, Bread and Circuses, and Omega Glory happened. They got stuck in the Prime universe.
the most important factors why war accelerates research is not the war itself, but the fact that many corners that otherwise would be needed simply cut. even more beneficial is the field test. if you design a new plane today, it will be made with one or two prototype and than tested on those for a few years, in a war, you make dozens of variant and whatnot, tested in actual scenarios and war, so the problems pop up and solved much faster. during wwii nearly three distinct new fighter generation researched and put into service (not clear and perfect, but almost), in 1990-2020 we went from late fourth gen fighters to early fifth gen fighters, less than a single generation.
LOL! Really good one Man. 👍🖖
necessity is hte mother of all inventions.
Long live the empire
Long live the empire!
Another great episode from OrangeRiver! Bravo! But maaaaaaan do I hate the Mirror Universe! So much hand waving, so many convenient coiencidences and so many ridiculous plot holes!
Awesome
I still don't get the micealial network joke? Great Trek vid as always!👍
@@subraxas haha you rock thank you! I was literally looking for this origin story to the meme. he also called 1 other thing he was using as a meme clip, was just like it.
@@subraxas Thanks!
I have a question, and sorry if this isn't relevant to the video, but I was wondering if you'd happen to know if and when Paramount+ would be coming to PS5?
I used to watch it on PS4, and was watching Discovery until I got the PS5 as to move on to the next, but found that it's not on there.
Peace is good for business, unless you are an arms merchant.
So does the Kelvin universe have a Dark Mirror as well? Does the Kelvin universe Dark Mirror have it's own Khan? Would it be the mirror of Enterprise, as the timeline divergence happened between the series and movies.
Mixing alternate universes and time travel, what next?
I'm gonna stop thinking about it, I'm getting a headache.
great video. i believe the fundamental question about star trek lore is how humanity ditched its fascination with race and religion to unite as one. been the burning question i have been waiting for years for an answer
Posad was right. The burning wreckage of the old order was the only ground in which the revolution could flourish.
Kinda lame response but I believe the Eugenics War/WWIII was the final punch that drove humanity to it's limit in terms of cruelty and the maximization of suffering that made most humans stop for a second and think "wait, we should do better"
@@Aahmpower i don't think thats lame. I do wish we can have the realization part without the war part
@@timothyhiggins8934 Unfortunately, in the Trek Universe it's shown that the World Wars, The Eugenics War and other events such as the Bell Riots were necessary for the realization and ultimately the formation of the Federation
I love the notion there's a secret, Other Self of us in a mirror universe that's completely lethal and dangerous.
Also, did you get your jacket at Members Only? 😉
Interesting that you mention eugenics being discredited. I attended a bioethics conference in college in which it was argued that the rejection of eugenics was a milestone in ethics: a scientifically valid theory that was rejected almost entirely because the diwnsides were regarded eventually with widespread revulsion.
Not to advocate for eugenics, but there is little doubt that sekective breeding *could* be successfully applied to humanity. There are multiple problems with it, though. Some are purely scientific, such as the fact that humans simply are not ideal for such a project since it would likely take hundreds of years. But ww2 also exposed ethical usages. Namely what traits does the "udeal" human have and who gets to decide.
Live long and prosper 🖖
Great video, wish it were longer…
What I don't get is why 22nd Century Terrans didn't have deflector shields. They absorbed Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite, and Denobulan technology which all had deflector shields.
Well i think there is a difference between real world and trek universe. But in war time research and development in all technology or research fields gets greater investment, and television or communications technology actually was advanced not slowed, the internet and computers either created for the war , or improved, or the reconstruction after the war expended the economy and development of multiple sectors, intelligence or great minds were cultivated , even basic education was a cold war investment. The American education system was a strategic investment to produce smarter citizens to out think Soviet citizens. Weather forecasting , commercial airlines, shipbuilding, cars , roads , medical technologies, oil refineries, or using television technology to attempt to control aircraft. ( like drones ) the space race science came from ww2 missile programs, and modern telecommunications satellites were developed to allow communication between earth and space craft. ( telestar ) which allowed for live world wide tv broadcasts, look at the tanks and aircraft in ww2 how many new and improved versions of them were produced in so short a time period, in some you had seven generations of the same aircraft in that time , ( 1939/40 spitfire vs 1945 spitfire) or similar aircraft were radically different. Or superior. The problem with the mirror universe is they gain alien or future advanced technology on more than one occasion, and they maintained a state of perpetual war or a war machine, its like the Soviet union they maintained a war machine before during and after ww2 and then during the cold war , and it hurt them economicly , yet they were still producing advanced technology, but the military was to big and expensive. The terrens did naturally develop key technologies. Although the almost certainly reverse engineered and developed new human technology. But look at ww2 60 plus million deaths, but the population doubled ( baby boom ) and ten years later an economic miracle had occurred. ( especially Germany and Japan) Russia was a under developed power that became a superpower. There is an element of darwinism at play , and the survivors are stronger than before. We can only speculate on what the dead may have achieved but we know what the survivors and thier children achieved. But honestly every major war in any ear advanced technology and civilisation. Or natral disasters or medical catastrophes. Earthquakes produce better buildings ect .
An entirely different theoretical leap: We are, in fact, in the mirror universe. The entire Star Trek franchise is an operation of Prime 31, mirror tal shi'ar, temporal agents with you know, classified information or whatever to indoctrinate us to change the timeline to create a new UFP in this universe after some calamity (perhaps the entire Picard show is the premonition of that catastrophy 🤣) occurs in what the fiction tells us is the 'prime' universe... whoa man...
Wait, since you have a beard, why was your mirror universe counterpart not shaved???
The beard's just too strong in both timelines
Mirror-Tyler is wearing a fake beard in order to infiltrate the regular timeline
Am I the only one who gets Warhammer 40k vibes from the Charon?
Amazing how both main time line Federation and alternate Mirror Imperium are dominated by the old US, at least in the naming of ships, location of Starfleet HQ, etc., with a few bones tossed to "allies"/"subjects" to keep them quiet.
My idea was that 911 made the us change to an empire
The split happens shortly after Cochrane's first Warp journey, so it makes sense for them to roughly start the same way, US based and similar conventions towards naming,
@@Voron_Aggrav not possible.
@@paulrasmussen8953 ah yes, two words, says nothing else and leaves, just to deny something that took me a minute to write
@@Voron_Aggrav simpek the starting credits disprove tgat with a terran flag on the moon and the fact mirror Zephrane shotguns the Vulcan says this eas established far before that.
1:53 felt really personal when I first saw it.
For a moment it sounded like you said the "Klingon, Kardashian alliance" and I had to sort through some really funny mental images 😄
This mirror universe thing confuses me. Like, you have TOS, Discovery, Strange New Worlds, and Enterprise all happening at roughly the same time yet all have vastly different political leaders. Could such a civilization as volatile as theirs be so powerful?
ENT is set a full century before TOS.
The other shows are nominally set decades apart from each other. Mostly.
Haven't you seen vastly different political leaders come and go over recent years and decades?
The mirror timeline does tend to show the faults of it's ways in the comparison between ENT and TOS and even more so towards DS9 and TNG, having the massive superiority of ENT mirror universe be virtually gone a century later, and during DS-9 it's capabilities where comparable to main timeline technology
@@Voron_Aggrav Trek has interacted with countless other realities, parallels, timelines, histories, futures. And each of these probably has a unique mirror. At least some of the mirror episodes probably involve different mirrors, it seems unlikely they'd keep connecting with exactly one.
One thing I am disappointed about, is you failed to mention how Mirror NX-Battleships did lack proper radiation shielding on their warp cores... this would to me at least, be a perfect example of where warfare caused some technology to be lacking.
Ah yes, that's right--the lax safety standards could have warranted their own chapter lol
Wooooooo Hoooooooo!!
The Apollo and Soyuz programs also furthered one other military device, the ICBM.
Loved it, Tyler!!❤
I believe that war is good for technological progress, possibly even sociological progress. Without a war economy, we would have never devoted the massive amount of resources to R&D that we did. However, I don't want to experience war either. Something like the cold war might be best for technological progress. Enormous motivation to work on R&D, but no actual shooting war that will destroy progress.
Fuck that. The computer may have been invented to crack Nazi codes, but the transistor was invented in peacetime. War economies are only really good for waging war. Regearing to do something actually beneficial after the war ends is so difficult that the United States never actually did it. We just kept fighting wars to keep spending the bullets we were making, instead of melting those bullets into literally anything else. How many potential Einsteins or Borlaugs have bled out on the street in some redlined ghetto because we decided to spend our resources on redlining and ghettoizing brown people? What if, instead, we had simply not done that?
Brain gets ridiculously happy with anticipation the moment it hears 'mycelial network' 😂🖖
And 14:39 you are really so funny 😂
🖖😎👍Very nicely well done and very well informatively executed and explained in every way indeed👌.
Thank you Steve!
Terra Firma
Peace never drives advancement as much as war does. During peace, theres far too many restrictions by government to advance effectively. Could peace prove advantageous? Absolutely if everything was ideal enough that people in power would not restrain advancement to keep their power. But that almost never happens.
Plus you have to have a need for something for there to be the proper motivation to solve a given problem. Necessity is the mother of all invention. In peace, that necessity is far less, than is often the case in war, when all forces are working towards a common objective. Survival. And then, victory.
Its after war that advancement made during war, are too well known to be covered up, and then enter society. Improving the lives of citizens, until they inevitably forget the lessons learned and fall back into complacency. That is, for the victors.
For the losers in war, progress can be constrained further, as even if there are advances during war, if they loose, they may lack the man power and the resources to use any technology later on, after war ends. Even if they developed new advancements during war.
That is of theres anyone left to use advancements at all.
War can be a great boon for the advancement of technology and other advancements if you win. But it can be a civilization ender if serious enough, and you loose. High risk, high reward potential. It gets the restrictive forces out of the way that constrain society. In order for those forces to save their skins, but it can also go very badly for a lot of people. And you have to survive it to enjoy the benefits, even if your side wins.
But it was the driving force for most of our advancements. Advancements I do not believe we would have necessarily seen. Not until war made them necessary. Even mass assembly being adopted mainstream, was sparked by war.
I guess then in that case a perpetual state of Cold War would be optimal for the Mirror universe with relatively minor proxy wars happening to test the various technologies and doctrines of each faction without it escalating into MAD and mitigating potential casualties while keeping everyone paranoid and focused enough to advance and be ordered, even if just for the sake of not being outpaced by their enemies.
@@fadelsukoco3092 Actually cold wars are a bit of a wierd state of affairs. The people who keep things surpressed in peace, don't feel as threatened, and so many restrictions continue. What does happen to take place is slow advancements in certain technologies based on the type of threat that is feared. Cold wars happen to have no massive battles that require technologies being developed that would have a wide scale impact. As its cold, no active war efforts that are actual admitted to. Instead you see things like spy tech, surveillance, satellite tech, missle and missle defense, military readiness, and explosive tech for use in confined altercations that can be denied.. gaining most of the advances. Those do trickle down eventually, but being their nature is one of secrecy, they don't filter down as quickly or readily as technology developed in open warfare. As they arent seen by as many people. And their existence is kept a highly guarded secret until they find something better.
biggest issiue with the mirror is how can throu all those times the same person? i mean its so violent and deadly how can there be still a mirror sisko, after 200 years diffrent history?
I can agree that we lost much in sienc throu both wars, simply planes were not used that widly and would be unusfull, also cars, almost every thing you said was better in all aspects after the war plus we also got female hygen artiekl(tampon) and many many ways in improving medical suppurt and dont forget FANTA
exotic matter isn't really a scientific basis, it is mostly use when you need something that does what you want, like, "if a certain particle exist, we could go back in time with a spoon", saying "it harvest exotic energy" means "it does stuff we cant explain"
Not really, no. Exotic matter is an umbrella term that includes a variety of things--some theoretical, yes, but others experimentally confirmed in the lab
I very much enjoy the mirror presentation here lol. Thanks for another excellent video!
God be with you out there, everybody. ✝️ :)
It should be noted that federation weapons tech is more advanced than the KCA cause words officers reports that it is equipped with "some kind of improved photon torpedoes" suggesting they may not have quamtum torpedoes
Mirror T'Pol..... 🤤
The invicible reason from 40k is over 26 km long and there where probally a few houndred ships of its class even though they where smaller at only 20 km
If you ever read the novel "StarChild: A Science Fiction Romance Adventure Revised" Womankindss first starship is able to travel anywhere in the galaxy between 6 days and a little under a month using "Ultradrive".
Technolgy develops based on pressure. Is there a problem we need to solve? Can I benefit from solving it? How do I get the resources to perform research and devlopment? ect. So government research is one line and private civil research is the other line. The brain pool is the same and people transfer in between. Both branches build off of prior developments. Also once you reach a certain level of economic infrastructure to support constant R&D and there is competition advancement becomes faster.
The TE is shown as stagnant because it needed to be for the purposes of the story. But in reality it would have faced pressure to adapt and improve due to facing stronger enemies earlier. For whatever reason so many people seem to survive long enough to produce the exact same pairings and copulate the exact same time to breed the exact same people for generations. Meaning they have the same level of sentient resources to work from for adaptation as Prime universe, just different pressures and a higher base technological foundation. Only absolute defeat should set them back. Which means the stagnation between getting Archer's Defiant and the TOS series has to be either no wars with high level enemies or recovery from a catastrophic defeat.
Out of Universe is because TOS establish TMU with that technology level so the writers have to artificially slow the speed of improvement.
T'pol, in any universe has a great chest.
Great to see Tiberius!
Well done!
Live long and prosper. 🖖
Thanks Kevin!
Is it just me or is Tiberius kind of a smokeshow? 😍
World War II disrupted the development of television?
I thought you were discussing the bad aspects of war...
Changing the timeline of nuclear weapons development can be very dangerous because it was the rejection of Douglas MacArthur's nuclear escalation plan for the Korean War after the Chinese entered the conflict which established nukes as not to be used lightly. Under different circumstances an attack like that may have been launched and shown the world that nukes are a legitimate battlefield weapon on Earth rather than merely a political tool.