It does make sense, since Riker seemed completely unchanged by the end of the episode. Though, maybe he was just suppressing his suppression, and it came out in his acting during the stage play episode where he was in a prison.
@@StormsparkPegasus That makes sense, considering Adira's difficulty in connecting with Tal's memories. At least that goes a long way to explaining their difficulties.
But don't forget that Odan also completely supressed the personality of the new Trill host who came in at the end of that episode. Though come to think of it, perhaps that was considered an emergency transplant as well? It's been ages since I've watched the episode. I found Odan/Riker making out with Beverly rather icky...
The closest would be with the Tokra, except even though they try to turn their parasitic abilities into a symbiotic relationship they still don't do the same thing as the Trill symbionts. First of all they can pass memories on to new generations of their own species, the queen decides what knowledge to invest in each new generation, and also they don't really do any of that "melding of personalities" stuff, you're just two minds sharing a body and one mind at a time gets to control it. They confer additional regenerative powers to their host, they can move from one host to another without either one dying, they have very different outlooks on sexuality and mate preferences. Also they can do that cool eye glow thing.
I can't believe Dax is 4 years old in the present day, I hope they're doing well. I think there was another non-canon novel out there explaining that the forehead ridges/spots discrepancy came about from a mutation of that virus from ENT that "explained" the more human-like Klingons in TOS, but ultimately I think it's best to just not address it onscreen and mentally attribute it to the constantly shifting timeline, Temporal Cold War, whatever explanation helps you personally move on from minor inconsistencies to enjoy the media at large.
these things affect history. the human looking klingons are still a population statistic today even though they have a tainted origen I like to think that forhead ridges can be explained simply with the race vs species thing. humans come in red black white brown or yellow I assume trill are the same way and that one of their ethnic constructs looks this way. like humans they have divergent countries, and trait expression. where did this race or that one come from? doesn't matter they are interbreed able and have reached the median where they are just another description of normal
That explaining the trill is stupid, but I don’t get why you put the explained in quotes. It did explain it and it was well done. It worked well at explaining a lot about Klingons more so than just their appearance in tos. Why haven’t they done genetic engineering for example is explained there, they have and it failed, and it also explains their behavior towards humans more so than just “they like war”, we know the Klingons to be honorable and humanity has never provoked them as far as we know, so why would they be so anti human? They blame humans for the virus that took away something super important to their identity
Mate, as a Star Trek fan myself, your breakdowns are logical, analytical and epic af. You clearly spend a lot of time looking into these topics and promulgating the information. You deserve more than 35k subs! Keep the content coming my man ill be watching!
It could also be a matter that the trill, having started out as xenophobic, only had unjoined members of their species (the overwhelming majority by population) associated with and serving with Starfleet until they as a culture felt they could trust this alien organization with their greatest treasure and secrets.
@@anlumo1 they’re not immortal at all they’re actually quite vulnerable. but when your house eats your food for you, energy isn’t hard to come by. but if that house stops eating, you stop eating, get it? and that house is just a person. just as mortal as anybody. it’s a tenuous life.
@@oldylad that’s not really the definition i was working with, here, but if that’s the one you’re using then i’m forced to agree. at the same time: are crocodiles “immortal?” they won’t die of old age. but all of them DO die, they can’t feed themselves enough to support their mass anymore and they expire. aging is actually quite unique to certain species on this planet, while not affecting others at all. yet all species on this planet do die within a pretty reasonable period of time. maybe we’re being a bit anthropocentric to consider age at all in a discussion of mortality? death comes for everything. if the immortal jellyfish had a culture, it might not consider itself immortal at all. again, the symbiont is an entirely dependent creature. it cannot live except inside of the rare environment of a compatible host, and the jelly back home on trill. this host DOES die of old age. this is incredibly threatening to your own life and you may very well die without immediate attention- and that goes for literally every second of your life, too. it’s just an intensely vulnerable, mortal creature in my opinion. that’s part of what is so fascinating about it.
I think we got spoiled with Jadzia. She is like a superhero because she is so capable. She is like a science swiss army knife. But, at least some joined struggle more to balance personalities (Ezri) and/or are more specialized in their expertise (Tobin). So I think if I was a Captain I'd have to look carefully at the Trill's resume and meet them in person before hiring them.
The symbiont gains nutrients and experiences of bipedal mammals....and the host is given many lifetimes of memories from Trill that have bonded with the symbiont. Seems like a great symbiotic relationship. One gets mammalian experiences and the other gets memories. The symbiont shares its brain.....the host shares the body. Neither hurts the other....and both gain in meaningful ways. Best symbiote ever!!!!
I don't see Trill as transgender. They have the presence of mind to see the reality of their biology once joined with a new host. For example: A trill placed into a female host, knows that they are female for that lifetime. Even if they came from a male existence beforehand. In fact, when training to become joined, it is important that the new host has the mental fortitude to resist becoming confused in exactly this way. For instance, if, after Kurzon died and the Dax symbiont was placed in Jazdia, She began to identify as male, it would be a huge problem. It would indicate that Jazdia was not strong enough to resist her identity being entirely overwritten by Dax.
Welp, that's the thing about metaphor... it doesn't exactly line up 1:1. But it's undeniable that stories about the Trill invoke allegories about the LGBT community.
@@OrangeRiver As a means to sympathise with people who are undoubtedly going through a uniquely human experience, however one may feel about trans issues, it does succeed
Very good video i allways enjoyed hearing and watching Jadzia and Ezri. The Trill society seems a very utopian one and i love how easy DAX referred to it's former life's without anybody having issues with it. Also i loved the insights into Klingon civilization thanks to Jadzia.
I was always aware of the Transgender metaphor, but my principle intrigue was the metaphor for reincarnation, and how the questions concerning the concept played out in them.
I think the first joining was accidental-like some wounded people during a battle stumble into the caves, go bathe or fall asleep next to the pools and wind up joined.
I always interpreted trills as representative of Buddhists and Hindus due to their belief in reincarnation as it relates to the symbiot moving from one host to another carrying with it skills and knowledge from the previous host much like how both religions believe the soul carries the Kharma of the previous lifetime. But that was back before internet.
I can think of a few Watsonian explanations for why Dr. Crusher wouldn't know about the Trill being joined, despite them being Federation members with even some personnel in Starfleet: 1) HIPAA rules (or the 24th century equivalent) would've kept the fact that some Trill are joined a secret from everyone but those who are directly treating them. 2) Joined Trill were explicitly barred from Starfleet (by the Trill government) until fairly recently. This actually still works with Jadzia because she was only joined after the episode The Host. 3) The Trill didn't actively keep it a secret, but it also wasn't common knowledge because only about 10% of Trill are joined anyway and even fewer are in Starfleet.
It is amazing to me how you can keep all this information straight in your mind. Jadzia Dax was one of my favorite characters. I named a dog Dax but she dies of old age a long time ago. This is a good episode 👍🏼
Oh, now y'all gonna make me cry... ffs. I am 54. I cried when DS9 ended. I have an entire cemetery of babies, some not mine, missing so many. It gets old, losing babies. You just want to stop taking in more. But then you see their love, and want to love them back. Being human sux arse.
When you think about what's involved in joining a Trill symbiont to its host... I can kind of understand why the Trill would be almost purposefully vague about it. Like, at some point, the first Trill host put the first Trill symbiont inside themself, and you've got to ask... what did they *think* would happen? "I'm-a just put this worm inside me real quick. Nah, it's cool, I found it in a milky puddle, what could go wrong?"
I did feel sorry for Ezri since the Dax symbiote was an essential player in the Dominion War. It didn't have the luxury of letting Ezri take her time getting used to this new life and basically hijacked her.
I see the Symbiont as a extra data storage (memories) pluged directly to the machine (host body), but the software (personality) is installed in both minds (the symbiont and host brain). If you need more data space, is not a parasite, is just a plugin expansion
The symbiont seems to be more of a tool used by the humanoids to create people with the vitality of a young person combined with the experience and abilities stored in the symbiont rather than a parasite. The symbiont “mind control” or “mind sharing” abilities seems to be dependent on the joining. Even if their mental powers are not dependent on the joining, the fact that they live in subterranean pools prior to joining means that it would be easy for the humanoids to avoid their mental influence just by not going to the pools. So maybe, the parasites are the humanoids, not the symbionts.
I've been working my way through the Enterprise novels. Tobin Dax is in a few sections of the Romulan War novels, and features in 2 of the "Rise of the Federation" novels that I've been reading so far. Currently just starting book 2. I also took a break to read the sections of "Lives of Dax" up to Tobin. Trill are very secretive of their joined nature, and very protective of the simbiants in this era. They only receive medical treatment at home, and try to avoid getting any medical treatment from aliens. At one point, Tobin has to reveal himself to the the Pioneer CMO, under doctor/patient confidentiality. A Marsupial-like pouch or abdominal cavity is described in both. Ezri calls it a "pocket" at one point. This would seem to suggest co-evolution of the humaniod Trill and the simbiants. One of my favorite Trek aliens as well. Very fascinating.
The problem with that idea is that somewhere in the middle, the tone of the skin and spots would match. Also, even black people can have visible birthmarks and freckles (i.e. Morgan Freeman).
@@JanetStarChild it would make it easier to just keep it black. not to mention how expensive and time consuming trying to find the right color for a to contrast a person's skin tone
@@Bailer86 I think you're on to something about the tone of the spots based on the tone of the skin; but I think having the spots lighter for lighter skin and darker for darker skin would strike up a nice balance.
My explanation for the transporter thing, is because of the secrecy, the Federation did not know about the symbiont, so the transporter would recognize it as a parasite and kill it. After it was publicly revealed in The Host, they probably decided that since the secret was out they might as well tell the Federation about it. At that point, it would be simple to adjust the transporter to say "Trill symbionts ok" and no longer attempt to remove or harm them.
I don't think there's been anything to suggest that the symbiont itself is sentient. It kind of seems like they're more of a complex recording device. Because whenever they refer to the symbiont, they always refer to a previous host. There's nothing to suggest that the symbiont has much of an intelligence without a host.
I always very skeptical as to how this works as a kid but learning medicine later about the Gut/Brain connection and our microbiome and things like the Vagus nerve gives it a decent sense of verisimilitude. Also quick issue fact check, did the Trill develop subspace communication before Warp and that's how they joined the federation?
I always felt the symbiont while sentient was a primal life form, only capable of existing, breeding and dying. They have no personality for themselves and don't appear to have any higher thought process .We've seen Jadzi, Ezri and Adira all interacting with with former hosts memories, but never with the symbionts itself. I don't give much thought to Odan because of the retcon, but that is the only example of the symbiont controlling the host while all others are just changed by different memories and personality homogenizing in the current host. For whatever the purpose of joining it seams the symbiont only acts as a secondary brain for the sole purpose memory storage in the hosts. Aside from the extra memories for the host and the ability for the symbionts to exist out of the natural environment. Joining to me seems to be a evolutionary neutral in terms symbiosis.
That’s an interesting point, I’ve never thought of the nature of the host-symbiont relationship in those terms before. I think I felt that the personalities of all the hosts and the symbiont became integrated into a unique individual at each joining, which was why selection was so rigorous; a person without a robust psyche wouldn’t be able to cope with such a radical change…not to mention the physical challenges too.
I think the relationship between the symbiot and the host in Trill society and evolutionary history started out as parasitic, but as the two species evolved together the relationship became more mutually beneficial. I think the different appearance between TNG and DS9 is due to it being two different species of hosts. (I wish they would give us a canon explanation for this.) The Trill are a unique species and I do like them. I really like this species. I liked this. Keep up the good work.
Thumbs up all the way up. Thank you for this video. You have done a great job of doing all the scripting and researching. ezri Dax has always been my favorite character in Star Trek DS9.
something ive always being a bit fuzzy on is why the humaoid trill get out of this arrangement, especially more primitive eras of their history, what would inspire their equivlant of a medevil pesent or even lord to seek out this arrangement if its not necessary for their survival as a species i dont know if very vague and abstract notions such a form of immorality and the social drive to better once self in order to 'earn' a simboit. and gaining the knowledge of previous hosts which isnt a altomatic thing and must be done with great care and supervision. would be enough say what you will about the Goa'uld species in stargate the closet 'relation' to the trill that i can think of at the top of my head but there are many far clearer and present benefits. vastly extended life spains, high resistance if not outright immunity to many disease's and hurmful elements such radiation, even a degree of incressed physical straight and endurance. alongside the racial memory and genus intilect that most goa'uld have.
Hey man, really liked this. I’ve always just disregarded “The Host”, but people’s theories that Odan was sick or the transporter biofilters might’ve done something to harm the connection without it being known are both quite fun.
The trill are one (two?) of my favorite species in Star Trek, but there’s one thing I’ve never understood. If joining requires a delicate surgical procedure, how did the first pair join? In their normal state, the symbiont doesn’t seem to be able to communicate very well, so how did the first one convince the humanoid to take it in, let alone to figure out how to connect the two?
Yes, my question too! What make someone think: hmm, I think I want to have this worm -like thing surgically implanted in my belly? And why would the symbiont want to in the first place?
@@keittkatranch5167 exactly! Like the Yeerks from animorphs make sense, they’re tiny, they’re parasitic, and if they can find a way in, they can take over. But trill symbionts are huge, and they can’t just find a way in.
I also have my suspicions about the symbionts. After all, we only the word of joined Trills that this "relationship" is beneficial to the host. Could be kissing cousins of the G'uaould on Stargate for all we know.😉
I like the symbiote is a metaphor for a soul which is a continuity of consciousness passing through embodied life, even if direct access to memories is not exactly the same. I'm Trans and I loved Jadzia as a child. I loved that she could embrace her femininity and masculinity in a playful and confident way that shifts effortlessly between these energies in a way that sadly many cis people find difficult to do; though in reality it is their choice. The trans metaphors absolutely did not go over my head 25 years ago.
I often wonder about the life and culture of the symbionts? Obviously symbionts have gathered vast knowledge. To what purpose for their specie do they seek out knowledge? What was the history of the symbionts before the first joining. (I would guess it was the symbionts who first theorized the possibility of their augmentation using the humanoid Trill.) I would guess at some distant point in Trill evoluntionary past both humanoid and symbiont had a common ancestor, but maybe not. How do symbionts reproduce? They apparently have a form of telepathy. Is the source of the telepathy primarily from the symbiont or the humanoid host? Does the rituals include agents that amplify Trill/symbiont telepathic powers? Could they force telepathy on others? Hmmm... interested in the having access to past lives and experiences without reincarnation? Then try... Zenna Henderson's series "The People: No Different Flesh" (not the movie, the books) or Alexander Scott Key's, "The Golden Enemy." Both seem to tap into the real world Jungian idea of collective knowledge we all have access to... or think "World Mind" of the Marvel universe Nova Corps.. or our own world mind linking humans concept, zeitgeist, the unique situations of paradigm shifting ideas occuring at the same time around the world among people with no contact to one another. Having said all of that.. myself, I'm in for sci-fi writer Zenna Henderson's views on accessing past/future ancestors and contacts experiences and knowledge. See: "The Pilgrimage" by Zenna Henderson.
The Trill being a dual-species may have been something that Starfleet (likely Section 31) willingly kept classified, for various reasons (their longevity gave them 1st-hand knowledge of events that most would not have, perhaps it made Trill less susceptible to mind-control, etc., etc.). Thus, it was on a "need to know" basis, and Picard & crew did NOT 'need to know'... until they did. Also, saying there is a sub-species of Trill (perhaps an aristocracy?) is not uncommon in ST galactic lore. IN fact, the (later) Trill may not even be indigenous to their world; perhaps the 'spotted' Trill are descendants of the ancient 'vast Kriosian Empire' (Hey, you mentioned them, may as well _use_ them) who had settled/colonized/conquered Trill in millennia past. This would resolve several pieces of problematic lore, including a BIG one you missed - Who the heck did the 1st Trill/symbiont operation? Like, who thought it was good idea and said, "Hey, lets take some of these ugly giant worms and have them surgically implanted inside of us!" On the other hand, if Trill itself was a subjugated planet at some point in the distant past, then sticking wormy things (for control?) inside the locales may have been a thing. Heck, the Goa'uld did it... but thats a different franchise (or is it? Dun Dun Duhhhh!)
I wonder if there's something to the marsupial analogy Maybe the Trill humanoid species have a neurological connection to their fetuses, one that normally disconnects at birth just fine... but the symbionts latch onto and stimulate its growth to become an integral part of their nervous system. Under those circumstances, you might not need them to have evolved together over an extensive period of time. The Trill could be a very young society that's been able to jumpstart from Paleolithic up to Space Age in a fraction of the time it took humanity,, because of how much the symbionts are a gamechanger. The relationship could very easily be wholly symbiotic from the start, because having a joined Trill confers the same kinds of benefits that having grandparents did to our early homo sapiens ancestors (believed to be one of our key edges over Neanderthal). Social knowledge would be significantly easier to retain and build upon when you have members of your society whose memories stretch back to your own grandparents' grandparents' grandparents The symbiont might not even actually be sapient beyond the host, and that they're considered sentient because of the way in which Trill society prizes them. It could be that the symbiont alone is only as sentient as your cerebellum, only smart enough to be able to sever its connection to the host upon their death and navigate out. It might also be plausible that early Trill society did have an Aristocracy of the Joined, but a revolution caused a major realignment in how society distributed the rare and vital resource that is the symbiont. That might be an interesting time period to explore in a novel. I'd imagine that a society so devoted to the symbionts would undergo such a transformation only because of an ideological conflict within the Aristocracy of the Joined, and the winners of some civil war among them resulting in laws to prevent its re-emergence.
Excellent video! Trill are indeed very fascinating, and one of my favorite Star Trek species as well. To answer your query; yes, I would like to have trill officers on my bridge. In fact, in STO, one of my bridge officers is trill (I also consider them non-binary).
I would love if you discuss the bluegill! There are some parallels with the Avatar, from Avatar the Last Airbender. I would definitely have a Trill on my bridge. I personally feel like parasite might be too harsh, being the host gets access to so much information and can almost attain immortality in a sense, I would see it as more of a symbiotic relationship, like that of certain jellyfish.
The differences in Trill is a result of changes in their make up. That is the real explanation. On the other hand, I think there being two different Trill species could make a lot of sense. So I think that can work. Also, the spots being a result of sexual selection makes a great deal of sense. Could be similar to the decorative feathers of male peacocks. Also, would the compatibility be the same for both subspecies of Trill? As for the Trill Hosts not using transporters, I think there is a simpler explanation that will work to reconcile the retcon in Deep Space Nine. Prior to that episode the Trills' secrecy meant that transporting hosts on board Federation ships using transporters was a danger to the Symbiont because they weren't sensitive enough to be used safely. Once the cat is out of the bag, the Trill fess up and Starfleet modify their transporter technology to recognize the Symbionts of Trill hosts. By the time of Deep Space Nine that retrofitting was complete (which amounted to a software upgrade, no new hardware needed, simplifying the retrofitting).
Being that so few Trill are joined, isn’t possible that Several unjoined Trill interacted with Starfleet for decades before joined Trills were “discovered”?
i buy Odon not wanting to use the teleporter being the Trill wanted to keep the simbyote secret, so the teleporters were not calibrated to filter out the simbyote, it would have triggered the anti-parasite protocol....the transporter removes most parasites to prevent contamination....but not all viruses can be caught....once DS9 started, the Federation had calibrated the teleporters to make exception for the Trill simbyote.....for all we know all those times that Curzon was pal-ing around with Sisko, Collos, and the other Klingons....Curzon never used the teleporter?
my head canon is that Odan himself and/or his symbiont were ill and the transporter could hurt them both. the way the symbiont moves in his stomach seems kind of unnatural and Dax never does that, so my personal conclusion is that Odan's symbiont was sick. i think that doesn't mess w canon too much, i really don't want to think Odan's episode to not count anymore, Beverly's phrase about our ability to love is beautiful and gives me hope in humanity. and symbionts *have* to be sentient, Dax in particular loves boozing and partying and fighting. it can't be a coincidence that both Curzon and Jadzia were into the same stuff.
The maths of the Trill joining process make for some interesting thought experiments: In the first combination the joined mind is 50% symbiote, 50% host#1. Presumably the symbiote retains this blend when host#1 dies, since we know that host memories are carried forward. So, in the second combo it's 25% symbiote, 25% host#1 and 50% host#2 In the third combo it's 12.5% symbiote, 12.5% host #1, 25% host#2 and 50% host#3 By the fourth it's 6.25% symbiote, 6.25% host #1, 12.5% host#2, 25% host#3 and 50% host#4 etc. We seem to see this with Jadzia, who is more often influenced by Curzon than her other hosts. I can certainly see the desire for more experienced symbiotes, since they would have a wealth of experiences for the current host to draw upon. I have to wonder what host#1 would get out of the experience though, since all the symbiote could bring to the blend would be a century of hanging around in an underground pool!
symbionts still talk to each other so i guess the first host would have memories of that. I'd prefer to be the first host, Ezri seemed to really struggle w Dax specially since she wasn't prepared.
@@Gurianthe I'm not saying that the unjoined symbiote wouldn't have memories or a personality, I just wonder what a humanoid would have in common with such a creature! ☺️ Ezri is probably a good example of why the years of training are necessary. Most people would probably struggle to manage the jumble of personalities in their head otherwise...
@@lifeinthevoid1595 Fair point, I have tweaked my previous comment. Perhaps your experiences would have made you a better candidate for the joining than Ezri? 👍
The transporter issue could have been easily explained. During Odan's visit, the transporters were unable to differentiate between the 2 minds, neural networks, etc..., but were improved by the time of DS9. As for the forehead ridges, it could have just been a cosmetic preference. Something surgically added.
Great Video. I LoLed so much from the "all the way down" gag. You did a great job carrying it through the video. Keep these coming, You are one of my favorite Star Trek 'Tubers, I always look forward to new stuff!
Love the deep dives with your fun sense of humour sprinkled in there. Enjoyed the longer video too ...had to pause a couple of times to get snacks but that was my lack of preparation! 🙂🖖 Also the comments were fun
As an officer in the military I think I’d like to lend some perspective to your question at the end about welcoming a Trill to your crew. It would honestly depend on the temperament of the Trill but ultimately it is the job of the officer in charge or command to make decisions. Any officer worth their salt wants to be surrounded by experienced individuals from all sorts of backgrounds so they can make the best decisions possible. A Trill who has lived several lifetimes and been in any variety of positions in life would be an irreplaceable asset. Take Dax for example, someone who served in a high enough position Cmdr./Capt. Sisko looked up to as a mentor that doesn’t have the ego to abuse that position and gave advice that helped him to make some very difficult decisions that he simply wouldn’t have been able to be prepared for otherwise. The right trill would be completely indispensable to have on your crew.
I’ve never liked the fan theory or novel canon of the troll and bluegills being connected. They are so biologically different and their methods of interface with humanoids so different that it would be like claiming humans and octopuses where closely related just because we both use tools.
Good video. I do find it amazing that it wasn't until "That hope is you part 2" that the Trill where confirmed to have been federation members. The episode "Strange New Worlds" of the same series seems to imply Trill is a Federation member by 2259 going of the map in the episode
Jadzia was always my favorite character from DS9 as a kid growing up. I never really knew why she resonated with me so much, until about 4 years ago when I transitioned myself. Going back and rewatching the series with my wife and her father it finally clicked for me. It was like that young version of me trying to reach out and recognize something of myself in her story. I had attempted to come out to my father when I was 7, so its not like I wasn't aware of being a trans woman even from such a young age, though I didn't have the words to express it! Honestly, seeing more representation of the LGBT community in Trek and other franchises really does go a long way to helping reduce the isolation and despair that comes with knowing you are different in your very core, and either not knowing how to express it, or in being afraid to do so because of societal/familial pressure. For me, it really did save my life, as that despair combined with being severely punished at home and in my family's religious community (a "summer camp" was involved, and that's all I'll elaborate on that), had lead me down a very very dark path. To the point that I freely admit to folks as having only 4 real years of life experience, as my old life felt more like serving out a biological prison sentence. The change is so profound in both my mind and body, that its sometimes easier to communicate to folks in a way that suggests that the person I was before was a separate entity and not me, very similar to how Jadzia talks about Kurzon, though, that could also be her portrayal acting as influence on how I view myself and my journey. I dunno, just something I've been thinking about as I relistened this video while doing chores around the house. Great work with the content and I feel like your assessment of the Trill's relationship to telling LGBT stories in Trek seems pretty spot on to me!
The Trill are very fascinating. And kind of erotic...I mean, they go all the way down, er, the spots. This was a really informative and entertaining video with a good quotient of whimsy. I liked it a lot!
To me, the Trill/Symbiont joining always sounded religious in nature. A lot of the language used to describes joining sounds similar to reaching a sort of Enlightenment. I can draw on my own experience of becoming a Christian and learning to recognize the Holy Spirit. As I grew in my faith, it became easier to recognize Him and I ended up acting like a better person and feeling better about my life and circumstances. C.S. Lewis described this growth process in 𝘔𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘊𝘩𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘢𝘯𝘪𝘵𝘺 in evolutionary terms, as a believer evolving from a single multicellular organism to a "multi-individual" organism. The joining of a Trill and a Symbiont looks like a combination of reincarnation philosophies with this multi-individual evolutions, a physical form equivalent to a spiritual process. So I'd imagine that in the past, the Symbionts were considered sacred creatures, purveyors of vast and ancient knowledge, and ancient Trill shamans or wisemen would interact with or consume the Symbionts in order to learn of their knowledge. Perhaps they even engaged in a non-surgical "proto-joining." Either way the Symbionts, as far as I can tell, are inescapably religious.
The question I always have about the Trill is two fold. One how did the symbiots evolve with the humanoid Trill, was it a coevolution process or were they all perhaps the same species billions of years ago and for whatever reason part of the species diverged heavily from the majority of the sentient species on the planet. Also how did the two groups eventually learn to understand one another, since for example, humans would normally not willingly allow a parasitic lifeform to basically feed off of them. It begs an interesting question as to how either humanoid Trills came to understand this relationship. Or if the limited psychic ability of the vermiform Trill allowed them to both be more intelligent then the humanoid version and they were able to explain it to humanoid Trill researchers, eventually. Either way I have always liked this species since there is so much interesting history in how they might have evolved.
In the surgery to implant or remove the Dax symbiont through various hosts in DS9 I noticed that all the hosts had a fold or pouch in their abdomen. I interpreted this as the humanoid host’s anatomy having evolved to receive a symbiont over millennia; certainly their immune system had modified. I’ve always considered Trill Symbiosis to be a largely positive thing, whereby both the host and the symbiont are equally benefited, although having watched DS9 as an older adult I have noticed that the symbiont is considered more important than the host in the grand scheme of things.
There is an obvious and easy explanation for how Trill maintained secrecy about their symbionts and "fooled" routine medical scans. Those Trill who served in Starfleet (or as Federation Ambassadors, Presidents, etc) - prior to Odan's "secret" being revealed in the TNG-era - simply had no symbionts. The vast majority of Trill are unjoined yet they still manage to have merit and accomplish things without the advantage of carrying a rare symbiont. They're an "alien" people just as capable as any other people, they must have many great and gifted individuals who lack a symbiont. Star Trek writers (and audiences/readers) seem to automatically assume that the ordinary masses of unjoined Trill are dull and limited, that they're uninteresting and incapable of serving important roles. Odan likely had a (Trill) diplomatic entourage most of the time, including a personal (Trill) physician. Joined Trill might naturally be apprehensive about alien doctors deliberately or inadvertently harming their symbionts. If the Trill never developed transporter technologies then it would be natural for them to be worried about transporters harming their symbionts. The symbionts might be so precious and protected that most are generally restricted from travelling offworld (an attitude which is implied to still prevail circa DS9). Odan and Dax might be two of the few remarkable or rebellious exceptions.
Yeah, so do you think he never used the transporter or had a checkup from an alien doctor during his entire diplomatic career? I'm not saying it's impossible, just trying to clarify
I don't know the answers to those questions. It's not really something revealed in any stories with Curzon. Sort of a background detail which was handwaved or unimportant or distracting within the narratives. Curzon did confide a lot with certain klingons, sworn blood oaths and solemn warrior brotherhood stuff. He also trusted certain Starfleet officers implicitly, unfaltering loyalty and obedience stuff. And he was known for initiative, aggression, action, results, mistakes. He got in a lot of arguments, situations, fights so he'd probably be through transporter systems and medical systems many times. I suppose it's reasonable that some people knew about Curzon's symbiont, about trill symbionts while the Federation and Starfleet as large organizations didn't. All we really know from the one contradictory TNG episode is that the Enterprise-D medical library and the Enterprise-D Chief Medical Officer didn't have access to this sensitive information.
This must've been a really long script, you had to read it all the way down
All the way..........
... like the spots.😄
🤣😂🤣
I saw this coming, and the only way it was bearable was to turn it into a game.
If I was medically allowed to drink, I'd be passed out right now.
🤣🤣🤣
I think Odan suppressed Riker in order to protect him. Basically to stop them from merging which can kill the host if they aren't mentally compatible.
It's also possible the symbiotic shared memory relationship wasn't possible with humans at the time.
It does make sense, since Riker seemed completely unchanged by the end of the episode. Though, maybe he was just suppressing his suppression, and it came out in his acting during the stage play episode where he was in a prison.
@@StormsparkPegasus That makes sense, considering Adira's difficulty in connecting with Tal's memories. At least that goes a long way to explaining their difficulties.
But don't forget that Odan also completely supressed the personality of the new Trill host who came in at the end of that episode. Though come to think of it, perhaps that was considered an emergency transplant as well? It's been ages since I've watched the episode. I found Odan/Riker making out with Beverly rather icky...
I'd really like to see a comparison between the Trill species and their symbiont, and the goa'uld and tokra with their hosts.
The closest would be with the Tokra, except even though they try to turn their parasitic abilities into a symbiotic relationship they still don't do the same thing as the Trill symbionts.
First of all they can pass memories on to new generations of their own species, the queen decides what knowledge to invest in each new generation, and also they don't really do any of that "melding of personalities" stuff, you're just two minds sharing a body and one mind at a time gets to control it. They confer additional regenerative powers to their host, they can move from one host to another without either one dying, they have very different outlooks on sexuality and mate preferences.
Also they can do that cool eye glow thing.
I can't believe Dax is 4 years old in the present day, I hope they're doing well. I think there was another non-canon novel out there explaining that the forehead ridges/spots discrepancy came about from a mutation of that virus from ENT that "explained" the more human-like Klingons in TOS, but ultimately I think it's best to just not address it onscreen and mentally attribute it to the constantly shifting timeline, Temporal Cold War, whatever explanation helps you personally move on from minor inconsistencies to enjoy the media at large.
these things affect history. the human looking klingons are still a population statistic today even though they have a tainted origen I like to think that forhead ridges can be explained simply with the race vs species thing. humans come in red black white brown or yellow I assume trill are the same way and that one of their ethnic constructs looks this way. like humans they have divergent countries, and trait expression. where did this race or that one come from? doesn't matter they are interbreed able and have reached the median where they are just another description of normal
That explaining the trill is stupid, but I don’t get why you put the explained in quotes. It did explain it and it was well done. It worked well at explaining a lot about Klingons more so than just their appearance in tos. Why haven’t they done genetic engineering for example is explained there, they have and it failed, and it also explains their behavior towards humans more so than just “they like war”, we know the Klingons to be honorable and humanity has never provoked them as far as we know, so why would they be so anti human? They blame humans for the virus that took away something super important to their identity
Q: How far down in the comments should an individual read?
A: All the way
😂
Mate, as a Star Trek fan myself, your breakdowns are logical, analytical and epic af. You clearly spend a lot of time looking into these topics and promulgating the information. You deserve more than 35k subs! Keep the content coming my man ill be watching!
Thank you!
I love the longer video! I know it's a lot more work, but we really get a ton of information that isn't available anywhere else outside of research.
Thank you Matt!
It could also be a matter that the trill, having started out as xenophobic, only had unjoined members of their species (the overwhelming majority by population) associated with and serving with Starfleet until they as a culture felt they could trust this alien organization with their greatest treasure and secrets.
Yes, also sending an immortal being on dangerous missions into space seems like a dumb idea.
@@anlumo1 they’re not immortal at all they’re actually quite vulnerable. but when your house eats your food for you, energy isn’t hard to come by. but if that house stops eating, you stop eating, get it? and that house is just a person. just as mortal as anybody. it’s a tenuous life.
@@tonoornottonothe ability to die doesn’t make someone mortal. Immortal just means won’t die of age, and trill symbionts don’t die of age.
@@oldylad that’s not really the definition i was working with, here, but if that’s the one you’re using then i’m forced to agree.
at the same time: are crocodiles “immortal?” they won’t die of old age. but all of them DO die, they can’t feed themselves enough to support their mass anymore and they expire.
aging is actually quite unique to certain species on this planet, while not affecting others at all. yet all species on this planet do die within a pretty reasonable period of time.
maybe we’re being a bit anthropocentric to consider age at all in a discussion of mortality? death comes for everything. if the immortal jellyfish had a culture, it might not consider itself immortal at all.
again, the symbiont is an entirely dependent creature. it cannot live except inside of the rare environment of a compatible host, and the jelly back home on trill. this host DOES die of old age. this is incredibly threatening to your own life and you may very well die without immediate attention- and that goes for literally every second of your life, too. it’s just an intensely vulnerable, mortal creature in my opinion. that’s part of what is so fascinating about it.
Dax💖
I think we got spoiled with Jadzia. She is like a superhero because she is so capable. She is like a science swiss army knife. But, at least some joined struggle more to balance personalities (Ezri) and/or are more specialized in their expertise (Tobin). So I think if I was a Captain I'd have to look carefully at the Trill's resume and meet them in person before hiring them.
I think you would have to meet with anyone before hiring them…
The symbiont gains nutrients and experiences of bipedal mammals....and the host is given many lifetimes of memories from Trill that have bonded with the symbiont. Seems like a great symbiotic relationship. One gets mammalian experiences and the other gets memories. The symbiont shares its brain.....the host shares the body. Neither hurts the other....and both gain in meaningful ways. Best symbiote ever!!!!
I don't see Trill as transgender.
They have the presence of mind to see the reality of their biology once joined with a new host.
For example: A trill placed into a female host, knows that they are female for that lifetime. Even if they came from a male existence beforehand.
In fact, when training to become joined, it is important that the new host has the mental fortitude to resist becoming confused in exactly this way.
For instance, if, after Kurzon died and the Dax symbiont was placed in Jazdia, She began to identify as male, it would be a huge problem. It would indicate that Jazdia was not strong enough to resist her identity being entirely overwritten by Dax.
Welp, that's the thing about metaphor... it doesn't exactly line up 1:1. But it's undeniable that stories about the Trill invoke allegories about the LGBT community.
@@OrangeRiver As a means to sympathise with people who are undoubtedly going through a uniquely human experience, however one may feel about trans issues, it does succeed
Very good video i allways enjoyed hearing and watching Jadzia and Ezri. The Trill society seems a very utopian one and i love how easy DAX referred to it's former life's without anybody having issues with it. Also i loved the insights into Klingon civilization thanks to Jadzia.
I was always aware of the Transgender metaphor, but my principle intrigue was the metaphor for reincarnation, and how the questions concerning the concept played out in them.
It's hard to have much if any respect for the Transgender metaphor in the modern seeing where that has gone.
@@Raycloud No, I would say the representation through Jadzia was very good for the time, and still mostly decent to this day.
Loved this break down... all the way down.
im glad i watched all the way
When you mentioned that odon wouldn't use the transporter, I understood that he didn't want the symbiont to be discovered
I think the first joining was accidental-like some wounded people during a battle stumble into the caves, go bathe or fall asleep next to the pools and wind up joined.
Thank you great video please can you do more videos about the Time Lords thank you and level home and prosper🖖🏼
I know one thing for sure... I miss Jadzia...
I always interpreted trills as representative of Buddhists and Hindus due to their belief in reincarnation as it relates to the symbiot moving from one host to another carrying with it skills and knowledge from the previous host much like how both religions believe the soul carries the Kharma of the previous lifetime. But that was back before internet.
I can think of a few Watsonian explanations for why Dr. Crusher wouldn't know about the Trill being joined, despite them being Federation members with even some personnel in Starfleet:
1) HIPAA rules (or the 24th century equivalent) would've kept the fact that some Trill are joined a secret from everyone but those who are directly treating them.
2) Joined Trill were explicitly barred from Starfleet (by the Trill government) until fairly recently. This actually still works with Jadzia because she was only joined after the episode The Host.
3) The Trill didn't actively keep it a secret, but it also wasn't common knowledge because only about 10% of Trill are joined anyway and even fewer are in Starfleet.
I thought the highlight on retinal was great. Purple oceans would be cool.
Jadzia is my favorite Star Trek character ever.
It is amazing to me how you can keep all this information straight in your mind. Jadzia Dax was one of my favorite characters. I named a dog Dax but she dies of old age a long time ago. This is a good episode 👍🏼
Doggo Dax lives on in you 💛
@@stuarttyler6724 Thank You 👍🏼
I once named a cat Toby, after Tobin Dax. He was a white cat.
@@ThommyofThenn they are hard to loose they are special
Oh, now y'all gonna make me cry... ffs. I am 54. I cried when DS9 ended. I have an entire cemetery of babies, some not mine, missing so many. It gets old, losing babies. You just want to stop taking in more. But then you see their love, and want to love them back. Being human sux arse.
A Trill would be invaluable on a starship.
When you think about what's involved in joining a Trill symbiont to its host... I can kind of understand why the Trill would be almost purposefully vague about it.
Like, at some point, the first Trill host put the first Trill symbiont inside themself, and you've got to ask... what did they *think* would happen? "I'm-a just put this worm inside me real quick. Nah, it's cool, I found it in a milky puddle, what could go wrong?"
I did feel sorry for Ezri since the Dax symbiote was an essential player in the Dominion War. It didn't have the luxury of letting Ezri take her time getting used to this new life and basically hijacked her.
Yeah, I didn't exactly like that whole thing. I know why they had to change, but I didn't like the direction they went
@@SECONDQUEST I didn't mind her and thought she played it well, but I think I'm in the minority.
I see the Symbiont as a extra data storage (memories) pluged directly to the machine (host body), but the software (personality) is installed in both minds (the symbiont and host brain). If you need more data space, is not a parasite, is just a plugin expansion
..expected to see more jokes all the way down here in the comments.
The symbiont seems to be more of a tool used by the humanoids to create people with the vitality of a young person combined with the experience and abilities stored in the symbiont rather than a parasite. The symbiont “mind control” or “mind sharing” abilities seems to be dependent on the joining. Even if their mental powers are not dependent on the joining, the fact that they live in subterranean pools prior to joining means that it would be easy for the humanoids to avoid their mental influence just by not going to the pools. So maybe, the parasites are the humanoids, not the symbionts.
I've been working my way through the Enterprise novels. Tobin Dax is in a few sections of the Romulan War novels, and features in 2 of the "Rise of the Federation" novels that I've been reading so far. Currently just starting book 2. I also took a break to read the sections of "Lives of Dax" up to Tobin.
Trill are very secretive of their joined nature, and very protective of the simbiants in this era. They only receive medical treatment at home, and try to avoid getting any medical treatment from aliens. At one point, Tobin has to reveal himself to the the Pioneer CMO, under doctor/patient confidentiality.
A Marsupial-like pouch or abdominal cavity is described in both. Ezri calls it a "pocket" at one point. This would seem to suggest co-evolution of the humaniod Trill and the simbiants.
One of my favorite Trek aliens as well. Very fascinating.
Would it make more sense biologically that darker skinned Trill would have lighter shade of spots? It would also make it more pronounced on screen.
The problem with that idea is that somewhere in the middle, the tone of the skin and spots would match.
Also, even black people can have visible birthmarks and freckles (i.e. Morgan Freeman).
@@JanetStarChild it would make it easier to just keep it black. not to mention how expensive and time consuming trying to find the right color for a to contrast a person's skin tone
@@Bailer86
I think you're on to something about the tone of the spots based on the tone of the skin; but I think having the spots lighter for lighter skin and darker for darker skin would strike up a nice balance.
My explanation for the transporter thing, is because of the secrecy, the Federation did not know about the symbiont, so the transporter would recognize it as a parasite and kill it. After it was publicly revealed in The Host, they probably decided that since the secret was out they might as well tell the Federation about it. At that point, it would be simple to adjust the transporter to say "Trill symbionts ok" and no longer attempt to remove or harm them.
The "all the way down" spots actually made me wonder why they aren't on the arms too while they are on the legs.
I do remember Dax talking about her host past in the 23 century and how she loved the skirts.
Good video man I really enjoyed it. I look forward to the next one 😀
Thank you James!
I don't think there's been anything to suggest that the symbiont itself is sentient. It kind of seems like they're more of a complex recording device. Because whenever they refer to the symbiont, they always refer to a previous host. There's nothing to suggest that the symbiont has much of an intelligence without a host.
Hey guys.....fan of Tylers here!
I always very skeptical as to how this works as a kid but learning medicine later about the Gut/Brain connection and our microbiome and things like the Vagus nerve gives it a decent sense of verisimilitude.
Also quick issue fact check, did the Trill develop subspace communication before Warp and that's how they joined the federation?
Excellent comment; that real world medical science is very fascinating.
Your query on subspace before warpdrive could be its own interesting video.
I always felt the symbiont while sentient was a primal life form, only capable of existing, breeding and dying. They have no personality for themselves and don't appear to have any higher thought process .We've seen Jadzi, Ezri and Adira all interacting with with former hosts memories, but never with the symbionts itself. I don't give much thought to Odan because of the retcon, but that is the only example of the symbiont controlling the host while all others are just changed by different memories and personality homogenizing in the current host. For whatever the purpose of joining it seams the symbiont only acts as a secondary brain for the sole purpose memory storage in the hosts. Aside from the extra memories for the host and the ability for the symbionts to exist out of the natural environment. Joining to me seems to be a evolutionary neutral in terms symbiosis.
That’s an interesting point, I’ve never thought of the nature of the host-symbiont relationship in those terms before. I think I felt that the personalities of all the hosts and the symbiont became integrated into a unique individual at each joining, which was why selection was so rigorous; a person without a robust psyche wouldn’t be able to cope with such a radical change…not to mention the physical challenges too.
I think the relationship between the symbiot and the host in Trill society and evolutionary history started out as parasitic, but as the two species evolved together the relationship became more mutually beneficial. I think the different appearance between TNG and DS9 is due to it being two different species of hosts. (I wish they would give us a canon explanation for this.) The Trill are a unique species and I do like them. I really like this species.
I liked this. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for digging all the way down into this topic.
Well done as always.
Live long and prosper. 🖖
Thank you Kevin!
Thumbs up all the way up. Thank you for this video. You have done a great job of doing all the scripting and researching. ezri Dax has always been my favorite character in Star Trek DS9.
Thank you so much!
something ive always being a bit fuzzy on is why the humaoid trill get out of this arrangement, especially more primitive eras of their history, what would inspire their equivlant of a medevil pesent or even lord to seek out this arrangement if its not necessary for their survival as a species
i dont know if very vague and abstract notions such a form of immorality and the social drive to better once self in order to 'earn' a simboit. and gaining the knowledge of previous hosts which isnt a altomatic thing and must be done with great care and supervision. would be enough
say what you will about the Goa'uld species in stargate the closet 'relation' to the trill that i can think of at the top of my head
but there are many far clearer and present benefits. vastly extended life spains, high resistance if not outright immunity to many disease's and hurmful elements such radiation, even a degree of incressed physical straight and endurance. alongside the racial memory and genus intilect that most goa'uld have.
Excellent Video , Thank you (:
Thank you Darren!
Hey man, really liked this. I’ve always just disregarded “The Host”, but people’s theories that Odan was sick or the transporter biofilters might’ve done something to harm the connection without it being known are both quite fun.
The trill are one (two?) of my favorite species in Star Trek, but there’s one thing I’ve never understood. If joining requires a delicate surgical procedure, how did the first pair join? In their normal state, the symbiont doesn’t seem to be able to communicate very well, so how did the first one convince the humanoid to take it in, let alone to figure out how to connect the two?
Yes, my question too! What make someone think: hmm, I think I want to have this worm -like thing surgically implanted in my belly? And why would the symbiont want to in the first place?
@@keittkatranch5167 exactly! Like the Yeerks from animorphs make sense, they’re tiny, they’re parasitic, and if they can find a way in, they can take over. But trill symbionts are huge, and they can’t just find a way in.
I also have my suspicions about the symbionts. After all, we only the word of joined Trills that this "relationship" is beneficial to the host. Could be kissing cousins of the G'uaould on Stargate for all we know.😉
Three
I like the symbiote is a metaphor for a soul which is a continuity of consciousness passing through embodied life, even if direct access to memories is not exactly the same. I'm Trans and I loved Jadzia as a child. I loved that she could embrace her femininity and masculinity in a playful and confident way that shifts effortlessly between these energies in a way that sadly many cis people find difficult to do; though in reality it is their choice. The trans metaphors absolutely did not go over my head 25 years ago.
Another awesome video!!😊
Thanks Clint!
I often wonder about the life and culture of the symbionts? Obviously symbionts have gathered vast knowledge. To what purpose for their specie do they seek out knowledge? What was the history of the symbionts before the first joining. (I would guess it was the symbionts who first theorized the possibility of their augmentation using the humanoid Trill.) I would guess at some distant point in Trill evoluntionary past both humanoid and symbiont had a common ancestor, but maybe not. How do symbionts reproduce? They apparently have a form of telepathy. Is the source of the telepathy primarily from the symbiont or the humanoid host? Does the rituals include agents that amplify Trill/symbiont telepathic powers? Could they force telepathy on others?
Hmmm... interested in the having access to past lives and experiences without reincarnation?
Then try... Zenna Henderson's series "The People: No Different Flesh" (not the movie, the books) or Alexander Scott Key's, "The Golden Enemy." Both seem to tap into the real world Jungian idea of collective knowledge we all have access to... or think "World Mind" of the Marvel universe Nova Corps.. or our own world mind linking humans concept, zeitgeist, the unique situations of paradigm shifting ideas occuring at the same time around the world among people with no contact to one another. Having said all of that.. myself, I'm in for sci-fi writer Zenna Henderson's views on accessing past/future ancestors and contacts experiences and knowledge. See: "The Pilgrimage" by Zenna Henderson.
The Trill being a dual-species may have been something that Starfleet (likely Section 31) willingly kept classified, for various reasons (their longevity gave them 1st-hand knowledge of events that most would not have, perhaps it made Trill less susceptible to mind-control, etc., etc.). Thus, it was on a "need to know" basis, and Picard & crew did NOT 'need to know'... until they did. Also, saying there is a sub-species of Trill (perhaps an aristocracy?) is not uncommon in ST galactic lore. IN fact, the (later) Trill may not even be indigenous to their world; perhaps the 'spotted' Trill are descendants of the ancient 'vast Kriosian Empire' (Hey, you mentioned them, may as well _use_ them) who had settled/colonized/conquered Trill in millennia past. This would resolve several pieces of problematic lore, including a BIG one you missed - Who the heck did the 1st Trill/symbiont operation? Like, who thought it was good idea and said, "Hey, lets take some of these ugly giant worms and have them surgically implanted inside of us!" On the other hand, if Trill itself was a subjugated planet at some point in the distant past, then sticking wormy things (for control?) inside the locales may have been a thing. Heck, the Goa'uld did it... but thats a different franchise (or is it? Dun Dun Duhhhh!)
Yes! I was hunting around for someone to ask "what did the first joining look like?"
How was the transporter able to keep both host and symbiot separate? Wouldn't they become a Tuvix?
there must be safe guards. we humans have tons of living beings in our bodies and humans in ST don't get merged w them.
@@subraxas euwww imagine if you got 'tuvixed' with that kinda like The Fly vibes 😦
I strongly recommend you check out All Tomorrow's (C M Kosemen).
The Trill seem like an intermediate evolutionary stage of the Parasite post-humans.
I wonder if there's something to the marsupial analogy
Maybe the Trill humanoid species have a neurological connection to their fetuses, one that normally disconnects at birth just fine... but the symbionts latch onto and stimulate its growth to become an integral part of their nervous system. Under those circumstances, you might not need them to have evolved together over an extensive period of time. The Trill could be a very young society that's been able to jumpstart from Paleolithic up to Space Age in a fraction of the time it took humanity,, because of how much the symbionts are a gamechanger.
The relationship could very easily be wholly symbiotic from the start, because having a joined Trill confers the same kinds of benefits that having grandparents did to our early homo sapiens ancestors (believed to be one of our key edges over Neanderthal). Social knowledge would be significantly easier to retain and build upon when you have members of your society whose memories stretch back to your own grandparents' grandparents' grandparents
The symbiont might not even actually be sapient beyond the host, and that they're considered sentient because of the way in which Trill society prizes them. It could be that the symbiont alone is only as sentient as your cerebellum, only smart enough to be able to sever its connection to the host upon their death and navigate out.
It might also be plausible that early Trill society did have an Aristocracy of the Joined, but a revolution caused a major realignment in how society distributed the rare and vital resource that is the symbiont. That might be an interesting time period to explore in a novel. I'd imagine that a society so devoted to the symbionts would undergo such a transformation only because of an ideological conflict within the Aristocracy of the Joined, and the winners of some civil war among them resulting in laws to prevent its re-emergence.
Excellent video! Trill are indeed very fascinating, and one of my favorite Star Trek species as well.
To answer your query; yes, I would like to have trill officers on my bridge. In fact, in STO, one of my bridge officers is trill (I also consider them non-binary).
I would love if you discuss the bluegill!
There are some parallels with the Avatar, from Avatar the Last Airbender.
I would definitely have a Trill on my bridge. I personally feel like parasite might be too harsh, being the host gets access to so much information and can almost attain immortality in a sense, I would see it as more of a symbiotic relationship, like that of certain jellyfish.
Fun Fact: the Borg were originally going to be an insectoid race and the Bluegills were what they used to assimilate other species.
@Marshall Huffer Very interesting!
Bluegill remind me of a very old description of the Zerg in a cd-rom manual.
all the way down.
The differences in Trill is a result of changes in their make up. That is the real explanation.
On the other hand, I think there being two different Trill species could make a lot of sense. So I think that can work. Also, the spots being a result of sexual selection makes a great deal of sense. Could be similar to the decorative feathers of male peacocks. Also, would the compatibility be the same for both subspecies of Trill?
As for the Trill Hosts not using transporters, I think there is a simpler explanation that will work to reconcile the retcon in Deep Space Nine. Prior to that episode the Trills' secrecy meant that transporting hosts on board Federation ships using transporters was a danger to the Symbiont because they weren't sensitive enough to be used safely. Once the cat is out of the bag, the Trill fess up and Starfleet modify their transporter technology to recognize the Symbionts of Trill hosts. By the time of Deep Space Nine that retrofitting was complete (which amounted to a software upgrade, no new hardware needed, simplifying the retrofitting).
when you said "their make up" i though you meant something like "their *genetic* make up" and i was like well duh. boy do I feel dumb rn
It’s pretty condescending to say ”they look different because they made them look different”, we know
I hope you do a video on the Goa'uld and maybe even rhe Tok'ra
Being that so few Trill are joined, isn’t possible that Several unjoined Trill interacted with Starfleet for decades before joined Trills were “discovered”?
i buy Odon not wanting to use the teleporter being the Trill wanted to keep the simbyote secret, so the teleporters were not calibrated to filter out the simbyote, it would have triggered the anti-parasite protocol....the transporter removes most parasites to prevent contamination....but not all viruses can be caught....once DS9 started, the Federation had calibrated the teleporters to make exception for the Trill simbyote.....for all we know all those times that Curzon was pal-ing around with Sisko, Collos, and the other Klingons....Curzon never used the teleporter?
i mean, there's living beings living in all of us Terrans, the transporter can't filter them all out without killing us.
Thia sounds like a reasonable explanation
my head canon is that Odan himself and/or his symbiont were ill and the transporter could hurt them both.
the way the symbiont moves in his stomach seems kind of unnatural and Dax never does that, so my personal conclusion is that Odan's symbiont was sick.
i think that doesn't mess w canon too much, i really don't want to think Odan's episode to not count anymore, Beverly's phrase about our ability to love is beautiful and gives me hope in humanity.
and symbionts *have* to be sentient, Dax in particular loves boozing and partying and fighting. it can't be a coincidence that both Curzon and Jadzia were into the same stuff.
I just assumed he was a hypochondriac 😉
@@MatthewCaunsfield well Pulaski didn't like transporters either so thats a valid view
Great video Tyler nice job covering the Trill one of the most interesting species in Star Trek. Oh and I knew those spots went all the way down lol.
Thank you Saxon!
I just looked through the comments... all the way down.
The maths of the Trill joining process make for some interesting thought experiments:
In the first combination the joined mind is 50% symbiote, 50% host#1. Presumably the symbiote retains this blend when host#1 dies, since we know that host memories are carried forward.
So, in the second combo it's 25% symbiote, 25% host#1 and 50% host#2
In the third combo it's 12.5% symbiote, 12.5% host #1, 25% host#2 and 50% host#3
By the fourth it's 6.25% symbiote, 6.25% host #1, 12.5% host#2, 25% host#3 and 50% host#4
etc.
We seem to see this with Jadzia, who is more often influenced by Curzon than her other hosts.
I can certainly see the desire for more experienced symbiotes, since they would have a wealth of experiences for the current host to draw upon.
I have to wonder what host#1 would get out of the experience though, since all the symbiote could bring to the blend would be a century of hanging around in an underground pool!
symbionts still talk to each other so i guess the first host would have memories of that. I'd prefer to be the first host, Ezri seemed to really struggle w Dax specially since she wasn't prepared.
@@Gurianthe I'm not saying that the unjoined symbiote wouldn't have memories or a personality, I just wonder what a humanoid would have in common with such a creature! ☺️
Ezri is probably a good example of why the years of training are necessary. Most people would probably struggle to manage the jumble of personalities in their head otherwise...
@@MatthewCaunsfield well I manage with a jumble of personalities just kinda sort of fine! 🤔
@@lifeinthevoid1595 Fair point, I have tweaked my previous comment.
Perhaps your experiences would have made you a better candidate for the joining than Ezri? 👍
The transporter issue could have been easily explained. During Odan's visit, the transporters were unable to differentiate between the 2 minds, neural networks, etc..., but were improved by the time of DS9. As for the forehead ridges, it could have just been a cosmetic preference. Something surgically added.
Great Video. I LoLed so much from the "all the way down" gag. You did a great job carrying it through the video. Keep these coming, You are one of my favorite Star Trek 'Tubers, I always look forward to new stuff!
Thank you Scotty!
Teri Ferrell is gorgeous so I don't blame them for wanting her face seen.
Great video!
I like in the end your answer is simple for the time line "the host just doesnt fit in the timline*
Love the deep dives with your fun sense of humour sprinkled in there. Enjoyed the longer video too ...had to pause a couple of times to get snacks but that was my lack of preparation! 🙂🖖
Also the comments were fun
Thanks LifeInTheVoid! Glad you enjoyed it!
great video, loved the comprehensiveness, always thought the trill were part of the most interesting epiosdes in DS9.
Thank you Nitero!
Friday 😀
Another great video on a popular race in Star Trek, I would like a Trill officer on my bridge BECAUSE it is like having multiple crewman in one
As an officer in the military I think I’d like to lend some perspective to your question at the end about welcoming a Trill to your crew.
It would honestly depend on the temperament of the Trill but ultimately it is the job of the officer in charge or command to make decisions. Any officer worth their salt wants to be surrounded by experienced individuals from all sorts of backgrounds so they can make the best decisions possible. A Trill who has lived several lifetimes and been in any variety of positions in life would be an irreplaceable asset.
Take Dax for example, someone who served in a high enough position Cmdr./Capt. Sisko looked up to as a mentor that doesn’t have the ego to abuse that position and gave advice that helped him to make some very difficult decisions that he simply wouldn’t have been able to be prepared for otherwise.
The right trill would be completely indispensable to have on your crew.
Great analysis. My personal favourite are the Vulcans.
@@discobolos4227 I know. I have seen it.
One thing that wasnt quite clear Just how far do the spots go?
I’ve never liked the fan theory or novel canon of the troll and bluegills being connected. They are so biologically different and their methods of interface with humanoids so different that it would be like claiming humans and octopuses where closely related just because we both use tools.
Good video. I do find it amazing that it wasn't until "That hope is you part 2" that the Trill where confirmed to have been federation members. The episode "Strange New Worlds" of the same series seems to imply Trill is a Federation member by 2259 going of the map in the episode
Jadzia was always my favorite character from DS9 as a kid growing up. I never really knew why she resonated with me so much, until about 4 years ago when I transitioned myself. Going back and rewatching the series with my wife and her father it finally clicked for me. It was like that young version of me trying to reach out and recognize something of myself in her story.
I had attempted to come out to my father when I was 7, so its not like I wasn't aware of being a trans woman even from such a young age, though I didn't have the words to express it! Honestly, seeing more representation of the LGBT community in Trek and other franchises really does go a long way to helping reduce the isolation and despair that comes with knowing you are different in your very core, and either not knowing how to express it, or in being afraid to do so because of societal/familial pressure.
For me, it really did save my life, as that despair combined with being severely punished at home and in my family's religious community (a "summer camp" was involved, and that's all I'll elaborate on that), had lead me down a very very dark path. To the point that I freely admit to folks as having only 4 real years of life experience, as my old life felt more like serving out a biological prison sentence.
The change is so profound in both my mind and body, that its sometimes easier to communicate to folks in a way that suggests that the person I was before was a separate entity and not me, very similar to how Jadzia talks about Kurzon, though, that could also be her portrayal acting as influence on how I view myself and my journey.
I dunno, just something I've been thinking about as I relistened this video while doing chores around the house.
Great work with the content and I feel like your assessment of the Trill's relationship to telling LGBT stories in Trek seems pretty spot on to me!
Thank you so much for sharing this! Glad you enjoyed the video. LLAP.
Who are the "Bluegill" aliens (Conspiracy) of ST:TNG?
Is it me, or are the Trill Symbiont, similar to the Goa'uld in Stargate? Or maybe more like the Tok'ra?
Ahhh yeah! Here we g… wait, am, am I late?
The Trill are very fascinating. And kind of erotic...I mean, they go all the way down, er, the spots. This was a really informative and entertaining video with a good quotient of whimsy. I liked it a lot!
To me, the Trill/Symbiont joining always sounded religious in nature. A lot of the language used to describes joining sounds similar to reaching a sort of Enlightenment. I can draw on my own experience of becoming a Christian and learning to recognize the Holy Spirit. As I grew in my faith, it became easier to recognize Him and I ended up acting like a better person and feeling better about my life and circumstances. C.S. Lewis described this growth process in 𝘔𝘦𝘳𝘦 𝘊𝘩𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘢𝘯𝘪𝘵𝘺 in evolutionary terms, as a believer evolving from a single multicellular organism to a "multi-individual" organism.
The joining of a Trill and a Symbiont looks like a combination of reincarnation philosophies with this multi-individual evolutions, a physical form equivalent to a spiritual process. So I'd imagine that in the past, the Symbionts were considered sacred creatures, purveyors of vast and ancient knowledge, and ancient Trill shamans or wisemen would interact with or consume the Symbionts in order to learn of their knowledge. Perhaps they even engaged in a non-surgical "proto-joining." Either way the Symbionts, as far as I can tell, are inescapably religious.
The Trill...a SENSITIVE topic to say the least...
Great video
I'd love to of been a trill
👍❤️
Good morning, Thank you for sharing your insightful research on these races in Star Trek
Very well made video and the longer videos are always the best. Your Q&A and species videos are my fav from you which I think I have mentioned before.
Thank you Malkiore!
I'd argue that Dax has been a young man more than once LOL
Also, joined Trill is literally New Game+
That is an exceptional way to put it lmao
New drinking game, take a shot everytime Dax says "all the way." I'm pretty sure no one can win.
The question I always have about the Trill is two fold. One how did the symbiots evolve with the humanoid Trill, was it a coevolution process or were they all perhaps the same species billions of years ago and for whatever reason part of the species diverged heavily from the majority of the sentient species on the planet. Also how did the two groups eventually learn to understand one another, since for example, humans would normally not willingly allow a parasitic lifeform to basically feed off of them. It begs an interesting question as to how either humanoid Trills came to understand this relationship. Or if the limited psychic ability of the vermiform Trill allowed them to both be more intelligent then the humanoid version and they were able to explain it to humanoid Trill researchers, eventually. Either way I have always liked this species since there is so much interesting history in how they might have evolved.
The Trill figured out subspace communications before warp travel.
please do a vid on the blue gill 🥺
In the surgery to implant or remove the Dax symbiont through various hosts in DS9 I noticed that all the hosts had a fold or pouch in their abdomen. I interpreted this as the humanoid host’s anatomy having evolved to receive a symbiont over millennia; certainly their immune system had modified. I’ve always considered Trill Symbiosis to be a largely positive thing, whereby both the host and the symbiont are equally benefited, although having watched DS9 as an older adult I have noticed that the symbiont is considered more important than the host in the grand scheme of things.
There is an obvious and easy explanation for how Trill maintained secrecy about their symbionts and "fooled" routine medical scans.
Those Trill who served in Starfleet (or as Federation Ambassadors, Presidents, etc) - prior to Odan's "secret" being revealed in the TNG-era - simply had no symbionts.
The vast majority of Trill are unjoined yet they still manage to have merit and accomplish things without the advantage of carrying a rare symbiont. They're an "alien" people just as capable as any other people, they must have many great and gifted individuals who lack a symbiont. Star Trek writers (and audiences/readers) seem to automatically assume that the ordinary masses of unjoined Trill are dull and limited, that they're uninteresting and incapable of serving important roles.
Odan likely had a (Trill) diplomatic entourage most of the time, including a personal (Trill) physician. Joined Trill might naturally be apprehensive about alien doctors deliberately or inadvertently harming their symbionts.
If the Trill never developed transporter technologies then it would be natural for them to be worried about transporters harming their symbionts.
The symbionts might be so precious and protected that most are generally restricted from travelling offworld (an attitude which is implied to still prevail circa DS9). Odan and Dax might be two of the few remarkable or rebellious exceptions.
What about Curzon? 🤔
Curzon was Dax, no?
Yeah, so do you think he never used the transporter or had a checkup from an alien doctor during his entire diplomatic career? I'm not saying it's impossible, just trying to clarify
I don't know the answers to those questions. It's not really something revealed in any stories with Curzon. Sort of a background detail which was handwaved or unimportant or distracting within the narratives.
Curzon did confide a lot with certain klingons, sworn blood oaths and solemn warrior brotherhood stuff. He also trusted certain Starfleet officers implicitly, unfaltering loyalty and obedience stuff. And he was known for initiative, aggression, action, results, mistakes. He got in a lot of arguments, situations, fights so he'd probably be through transporter systems and medical systems many times.
I suppose it's reasonable that some people knew about Curzon's symbiont, about trill symbionts while the Federation and Starfleet as large organizations didn't. All we really know from the one contradictory TNG episode is that the Enterprise-D medical library and the Enterprise-D Chief Medical Officer didn't have access to this sensitive information.
:) Very Good video
Paramount really said “aliens not hot enough, try again”
All the way...