As a child back when there was only the original series mirror canon, I imagined our world as the unifying glue both uniting and keeping separate the main and mirror universes. While in a weird almost literal way that's obviously true. But I like it as a narrative concept. Our real back and forths between fascisms and freedoms lead to "quantum echos" of positive and negative waves that impact/create the two main Star Trek realities. Or from their perspective, we're the muddy result of averaging theirs.
I remember many years ago a Star Trek graphic novel, released before TNG, that showed the rise of the Terran Empire, the point of separation from the Prime Universe was the Earth/Romulan War, in the Prime Universe the war was fought entirely in space whereas in the Mirror Universe the Romulans invaded and conquered Earth. Eventually the Terrans overthrew their conquerers and the Empire was formed using the motto “Never Again” and started their own conquest of the Alpha Quadrant in order to ensure that humanity would never again be subjugated.
That was the old Marvel Star Trek comics from the early to mid 1980s. Noteworthy not only because they created a Mirror Universe sequel that ran for several issues (later collected in a graphic novel), but also that they had a Klingon named Konom serving aboard Kirk's Enterprise, uniform and all, a few years before The Next Generation premiered in 1987. 🖖😎👍
I think the Enterprise cold open - despite being Terran propaganda - was intended by the writers to create a definitive framework and timeline for the Mirror Universe. This was required to establish the setting for "In a Mirror Darkly" and combined with the revised titles have the added benefit of summarizing events for any viewers who may not have seen the prior Mirror episodes. I mean, setting up the show is that's what a teaser is for.
I think the Shatnerverse novels also muddy the waters for some folks that have read them and mix the novels with canon. In them Prime & Mirror Spock discuss the history of their universes and find the first divergence they can find is that around the time of First Contact there's a lake that's renamed to Lake Riker in the Mirror Universe, indicating that First Contact is a divergence point. It is an interesting idea, but contradicted by officially filmed and distributed canon Trek. The next seasons of Picard and Disco appear to involve fractured time lines, and Section 31 is led by a Mirror Universe empress. I have a feeling even Brannon Braga will get whiplash from all the time travel. 🖖🏻
The Enterprise cold open for "In a Mirror, Darkly" with the historic panorama of war and tyranny and the bleak music is my favorite Trek open by far (sword through the earth logo on the flag planted on the moon, lol) The Enterprise take on the mirror universe has to be the most fun and entertaining version across the franchise. The entire crew acts like pirates. Archer has a perpetual 5 o'clock shadow and is an insecure, suspicious version of his prime self. Same for others like Forrest (interesting that Archer and Forrest both hold mirror ranks under where they wind up in the prime universe... crime doesn't pay?), Tucker with the delta ray scarring, Phlox with his penchant for interspecies torture ("would you kindly die?"), T'Pol being a weirdly similar version of her prime self... All played straight and all devastatingly funny at the same time for this fan.
@@Ootgreet1 Given how the cold open of "In a Mirror, Darkly" appeared in "Star Trek: Enterprise", then it seems, that most of the rest of the universe was actually peaceful, until the Terran Empire emerged. This 'all the others were fine and humans were not' thing could be proven by the fact, that the Vulcans came in peace, exactly as they did in "Star Trek: First Contact".
@@mardus_ee I think it was straight up Terran propaganda though, it was showing human strength, that was the overarching theme. If they mentioned other species peace it was because they viewed it as a weakness, not because they weren't capable of war. You always view your enemy as a simplistic version of themselves, those at peace are pacifists, those at war are warmongers, those eating are gluttons, those starving are lazy... there's always a twist that can be added as an excuse.
I remember the book Dark Mirror. Picard reads the end of Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" where we do get the pound of flesh. He then notices a Bible but decides not to see how that's different (IMHO a decision to keep from offending a christian reader). There is an observation that the stars are different. My theory is that there are fewer stars in Mirror Earth's galactic arm or something keeping Earth from seeing all the stars in the sky. Without the beauty of the night sky, humanity goes down a darker path. It may be cheese, but it does fit in with the themes of Star Trek.
Let's be honest Star Trek has never been one to avoid cheese so I could totally see them going with that idea, might even try to blame that for Terrans being more sensitive to light though that doesn't really make sense but I'm not a fan of that idea to begin with.
@@GrimmShadowsII perhaps their sensitivity to light came from years of pollution in the sky. After all, if they are evil, then the idea of environmentalist will never happen or something.
@@coinsilver3 they're not evil just more Savage and brutal likely due to some threat in that universe, hence the theories that it was knowledge of the Borg threat and losing the human Romulan war theories
@@coinsilver3 I don't think it was the pollution. Sensitivity to light can happen, if a species usually develops in a darker environment, which is what the Terran Earth might have been, compared to ours. If I were to take Alverant's theory to account, that Terrans could not see as many stars, then this may mean, that Earth was clouded by darkness for some reason. Would it mean, then, that there were more clouds during the prehistoric Terran Earth, which clouds might have blocked sunlight more? More clouds at night, for example, blocking the view to the stars? Michael Burnham said in one Mirror episode, that 'even the light is different', but this could also be Mirror Terran starship windows being tinted darker to adjust to Terrans' sensitivity to light.
I remember old novels written by William Shatner, where Kirk went to become the terran emperor. In this novels the point where both universes split, was the first contact, not because Cochrane shot the Vulcan, but because the crew of the Enterprise wiped the memories of Cochrane and his assistant but while in the prime universe this worked and they didn´t remember anything about the Borg, in the mirror universe this method didn´t work and Cochrane built the new alliance with the vulcans around the knowledge, that there are threats in the universe that can und want to kill the human race, so the humans need to be strong to survive in this galaxy. I always liked this version of the events.
Misconception: the assumption that there is one mirror universe. Star Trek has shown us glimpses of many parallel universes, different timelines, etc. Some have a single defined point of "divergence". Some are "alternate" timelines which had an "alternate" past and will have an "alternate" future. Each of these would have a unique "mirror" counterpart as well. And each mirror could itself "diverge" into any number of "parallel" or "alternate" mirrors. We can't even be certain whether the shows keep visiting the "same" mirror universes.
I think sometime in the distant past, a Dinosaur stepped and didn’t step on a small insect. That is to say, the universe where it did step on it is the Mirror universe and the one where it didn’t is the non-mirror universe. Let’s call that insect a proto-butterfly. ;)
I more or less follow Rom's view in that the Mirror Universe "just doesn't make any sense." As you said the coincidences are astronomical and any historical change would cause massive divergences but nothing makes any sense. I mostly just turn off my brain and don't think about it or how the Empire or even any ship could remotely function and have any stability at all with everyone constantly trying to assassinate/backstab each other. If there is any "explanation" for it I would probably chalk it up to Q creating the dimension for the benefit of the Prime humans to ether taunt them and/or push them to correct the flaws they see in that exaggerated funhouse mirror.
@@DMS-pq8 Not really. The point were emperors were dropping like flies was the Crisis of the Third Century and ultimately led to the split of the Empire and the beginning of the crumbling away of the Western Empire.
I had a co-worker years ago try to explain that the Kelvin Universe exists because of the events of Enterprise where they interact with the Borg causedhuge jump in technological understanding. This was also his way of way of saying Enterprise was no canon, but its a interesting thought.
To be fair events in Enterprise do contradict things said in TOS, which suggest it's an alternate timeline. I didn't watch it alot but I know there were a few ecounters with Romulans but in TOS they seemed to know almost noting about them even being surprised they looked like Vulcans as well as Spock saying something along the lines of ships using Nukes and not having warp drive during the human romulan war but it's been said by producers, and maybe hinted at on the show, that the war hadn't happened yet even though they launched 2 warp 5 capeable ships. Personally I don't use the term canon with Star Trek because it's established since close to the beginning that there are multiple timelines so pretty much everything you've seen or read has happened just not everything in the same timeline.
I've also seen it said that the Terran Empire somehow had its roots, or rather, the point of divergence from the Prime Universe happened around the time of the Roman Empire. I think that's where that theory comes from. I don't think that was a machine fun Cochrane pulled. It looks more like a slightly futuristic sawed-off shotgun.
Good exploration of some of the origin theories of the mirror universe, including some I've not heard of before! I too subscribe to the Simon Pegg explanation for the Kelvin timeline, it's just so much simpler and eliminates the continuity issues
I had always liked the concept set forth in the movie "Waxwork 2" of a parallel universe that was connected with our universe as a sort of playground/video game universe for higher beings to play around with, and the mirror universe was connected to prime universe with the Q (or some of them at least) being the entities responsible seems logical.
That's an interesting idea, it wouldn't even have to be the Q as there have been several godlike races. The Metreons specifically commant on Kirk's choice to not be violent but to be mercifer and spare the Gorn captain in Arena.
I like the idea that the Kelvin timeline has always existed - we've seen ships travel back in time and to the mirror universe in one fell swoop, it makes sense that the same could happen to the Kelvin universe.
The fan series Star Trek: Farragut did a time travel ep that hinted that the Mirror Universe diverged from ours not long after the American Revolution. While not expounded upon as far as I recall, there's a chilling scene near the end where George Washington stabs a knife through an apple and leaves it standing on his desk as he heads into battle. Of course it's all fan speculation and I can't see how it would hold water, but it's a great scene anyway!
I agree with you about the last one - the idea that humanity can’t overcome its warlike impulses except with someone already from a better future coming and telling someone about it is just… so degrading. It’s definitely not an optimistic viewpoint.
Also I was very happy when you discussed how many other empires just claim to descend from Rome with no real backing. Too many people who don’t know that history take those claims at face value, and it’s a problem both in fiction analysis and in real life.
They said in ST Discovery that the quantum frequency of atoms was slightly different than the prime universe. Its like in music where the A is generally tuned to 440hz, but a lot of old stuff was tuned in 432hz. We obviously used alot of different tunings but its an easy way to understand the concept.
I'm sticking with my theory that the Borg and the enterprise-e going back in time is not a predestination Paradox it is a continuation of a now altered timeline or you can call it an alternate timeline it's up to you.
It has always bothered me how there were duplicates of basically everyone especially when you get to end of it in DS9. All the deaths, Smiley's missing wife and kids, and everything else. In my mind, either the mirror universe split at a certain point and continued to become more and more different, reinforced by DISCO season 3 saying it was "moving away" (my head canon is to force all shows into one continuum) or all Star Trek universes are free standing variations of the multiverse like you brought up. For this "fiction" to be "true", I'm pretty sure your take is correct..."but I don't like it". Excellent video again. Thank you!
Why couldn't some force, not necessarily entity, naturally push them back into similarity? Like some multiverse version of entropy, they just "fall" into sync. (For the record, I don't watch Discovery, so have no idea how it adds or subtracts from other series' episodes.)
@@patrickmccurry1563 when I think of entropy, I only think of short term disorder and not the long term "smoothing out". If we ignore the notion of free will, and assume a deterministic universe, then "what must happen, will happen" to balance out the multiverse. That means Jake is fundamentally unimportant to the multiverse, because in the mirror universe he never was even born. Same with Mollie and Yoshi. Taken to it's extreme, important people are born in all universes, unimportant people get to be nameless slaves of the Empire or Red Shirts. You are correct though, there are entities forcing continuity across all universes...at least in the case of Star Trek universes LOL
@@patrickmccurry1563 you should check out Discovery if you get the chance. All the new shows are BIG departures from what we've come to expect but they do tell interesting stories for sure. Lower Decks has changed my whole opinion on the lore of all shows despite openly mocking the thing I love.
The Terrans are regular humans whose history had different events that diverged from the prime universe. I believe that the Gerco Roman empire never truly fell and continued on in some form thru out the centuries. Plus I think the arrival of the USS DEFIANT NCC 1764 in the mirror Universe caused a divergent timeline within the mirror Universe that showed up in Star Trek Discovery.
I love this topic! I would hypothesize that the Prime & Mirror universes split at the same time that we KNOW another universe/timeline was created! When Nero travelled back, creating the Kelvin timeline, it actually fractured the universe, and just like when you fracture glass, these cracks travelled forward and backward through time. In fact, I would even go a step further and THEORIZE that Discovery takes place in its own timeline as well, (also created at this time) which would explain the MASSIVE differences that we see there vs. what we know the Prime timeline should look like. (Primarily with the level of technology.) This would give us 4 known timelines and would actually clean up a lot of continuity issues. Also, I wrote this before watching the whole video. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it…
OrangeRiver , I love Star Trek and I love all Mirror Universe episodes. Having said that, I must confess that there is only one real issue with the Mirror Universe concept. That issue is the fact that after just one generation of people in one Universe behaving different, it would be extremely unlikely if not impossible for the same people to be born after hundreds of years of indifference. Therefore, if a Mirror Universe existed with the same people having different personalities, it would have to be because all of our lives are destined. I don't believe in Religion, but that would make it certain that something or someone's divine plan is in control. I wonder how many Trekkies are Ashiest ?
One more thing, OrangeRiver, The opening credits of the Star Trek 2 part episode A Mirror Darkly, IS IN FACT CANNAN. That proves that the split between ours and the Mirror Universe occurred at least before the Vikings sailed to the Americas. You should study that globe shown when the opening begins, it's very interesting and I'll bet a closer examination would reveal the true secrets of the Mirror Universe.
I think the theory is that there's some force tying the mirror universe to the prime universe, ensuring most individuals have a doppelganger - maybe their souls or whatever (an actual concept in Trek) are linked?
Awesome video! Thank you for your thoughtful approach to the Terran Empire origin question. I think you're right (later video I watched before this one) that an alternative US is the foundation of the Terran Empire. I appreciate your attention to historical detail and logical projection of how history could have been.
The problem with 'it would be too different' arguments is _within_ the Star Trek universe there are things that should not exist such as the Roman Empire with English in system 892, the US constitution and flag on Omega IV, and the duplicate Earth (Miri). It should be noted the lead in to "In a Mirror, Darkly" shows the emblem of the Empire during what appears to be WWII, then an atomic bomb explosion, and then the Empire landing on the moon. This "sets" the birth of the Empire no later than WWII.
I still think the biggest misconception is that the Trek Mirror Universe diverged from the Trek Prime Universe. The multiple differences together with the multiple similarities that are both inconsistent with a temporal divergence suggest they are simply parallel universes sharing some basic "metaquantum" links.
Totally agree! Someone else mentioned quantum entanglement--a subject I danced around in my prior video about the science of the mirror universe--which I think could be at play.
One theory I heard about the Terran Empire is that it's pretty much humanity sans the empathy shown in the Prime Universe. That lack of empathy can explain things like the murderous actions they take against just about everyone they encounter and has been so prevalent to their society for so long that it's just how they operate on a cultural level.
Back in the '80s there was a story arc in DC's Star Trek comic that said the Terran Empire grew out of a resistance movement that arose after the Romulans conquered Earth in the Earth-Romulan War.
Yeah that's a theory I've heard but the credits to Enterprise's In a Mirror Darkly seem to contradict that. The credits show various historical events one of which looks similar to the moon landing but with a Terran Empire Flag instead of a US and it's likely they landed on the moin before the romulan war even if it wasn't the same as our universe.
@@GrimmShadowsII Because the scenario shown on Enterprise is from a live action show, according to Roddenberry, it's canon. Only stuff from live action TV or movies is canon in Star Trek.
@@jeffjones4654 yeah that's what I meant when I said the credits scene seems to contradict it, maybe a poor choice of words. Before that I was a fan of that theory did to the Romulsns being very similar to ancient Rome so the resistance decided to adopt some of their practices thinking that's why they won the war or something.
Who’s to say that each time we see THE mirror universe it’s actually a similar yet different alternate universe like a hall of mirrors in an amusement park? That would explain the ‘ mistakes’ and retcons Across all media from TOS , comic books, movies , books, DS9 , Enterprise, and the other series and if there is influence between the ‘ prime ‘ and ‘ mirror’ universes it could explain why khan recognized commander Chekov , when Chekov WASN’T ON THE F****ING ENTERPRISE during the events of Space Seed .
@@philvanderlaan5942 Chekov wasn't a bridge officer during the first season. That doesn't mean that he wasn't on the Enterprise. As Captain Kirk said in "A Piece of the Action " ......."There's over 400 guys up there!!!!"
There is no point of divergence, because mirror universe isn't a timeline. It's a mirror. Everything that happens in main reality is reflected to the mirror universe as an inverted image. Light "feeling different" and there being less light in general is meant to represent the fact that light loses intensity and diffuses a bit when reflected. It's not a temporal or physical phenomena, but a conceptual one. There's some force out there that conceptually reflects the main universe.
I remember one theory regarding all those loopholes and changes and inconsistencies being basically due to them being in different/parallel universes. There is a universe x, there is a universe y, there is a universe z, and so forth, and they all split and merge and fork and create all sorts of convoluted webways. That being said, such things like different universal constants or being simply "wrong-brained" are just ... ridiculously wrong. So to me, there are many different origins to the Mirror-verse. I am also sure that some Mirror-verses will outlive others (see the comics and books that show Mirror-Picard, or Comodore Sisko, the miliary governor of Bajor), while others may not even have reached Kirks time. I am also sure that not all Terran Emprires had an Empress Sato or Empress Georgiou or Emperor Spock....
The notorious Inspector Tyler is back! Like other fans are noticing your soft lighting and sense of cinematography (Your shadow on the wall outside your office was hypnotic)is great.It reminds me of old Bogart\Dixon Hill like detective movies where sometime after midnight we listen to your report on a case in quiet awe.This style really works well and your look,voice,and acting add drama that other channels lack.I bet dressing in a white shirt with roles up sleeves, a tie loosely hanging like old time detectives used to dress with a coat and hat on one of those old racks in the background would complete the image,but I'm sure your way ahead of me ! I'm sure you have alot of good stuff planned and it's fantastic how popular your channel is becoming as more people are discovering the best STAR TREK fan show on the net!
The fact that people are the same across the mirrored universes creates an interesting tether in my mind. Though the fact that the same people share relatively similar lives, puts it past uncanny, to a causal relationship. This also means very similar universes with the same people should exist as well. Through that tether many of the other questions you raised would be answered.
3:40 literally any plot where that happens thanks. Jolene Blalock always looked like she was seething, suppressing, and was by nature a much more Romulan-like person. She and Linda Park really got to show what they were about in the Mirror, and it's a damn shame we didn't get a whole season of that lol.
The idea that "pacifists" were the main block that didn't want US intervention in WW2 is a bit galling, since iirc most of the opposition came from US anti-semites (who obviously had reasons to like the Nazis) and anti-comminists who thought fascism was preferable to communism.
There was a large isolationist movement at that time. It wasn't all about hidden agendas though of course many did have those. Look at all the legitimate criticism of America's present policy of getting involved in virtually every sovereign nation's business. If the true evil of the Nazi regime wasn't fully known in the 1930s, why would an average American citizen suspect it?
@@patrickmccurry1563 I'm not saying all isolationists were hardcore anti-comminists or anti-semites, just that the position had more roots in that than ideological pacifism
It’s almost like it was written for an episode of television in the 60s they assumed no one would still be talking about decades later. I prefer to only consider the implications of City’s premise as important within the episode itself and try not to connect it to greater Star Trek lore, honestly, with the exception of future appearances of the Guardian of Forever such as in the animated series
I've always taken the turning point was where enterprise showed it, right at the moment of vulcans landing on earth and instead of putting our warlike aspects aside, we spread to the stars on our war mongering and conquering. Hence why there's that tinge of darkness in the mirror universe as there's been no quest to better but a quest of conquest.
Am blown away by the depth and breadth of your knowledge and research, great video. In the Infinite Universe theory every variation that could happen will happen, but is there a plausible explanation for the link between these particular 2 versions
always saw the Terran empire starting more of a political party inspired by the roman empire, that eventually united the planet ideologically after the vulcans stumbled onto the scene, having a common enemy, united earth and led to new desire for power and to conquer where no man had conquered before, being a dark mirror to our earth united under common cause to go where no man gone before
The problem is that any major change changes everything. So the mirror universe as a concept doesn't hold together realistically, as much as I love them.
I think it would make more sense if the terran empire was founded by Khan after he conquers the planet and the augments are the ruling class while regular humans are used as cannon fodder. Edit I wrote this before you got to number 8.
It is very simple. In the mirror universe, human evolved with different serotonin level production. We end up with a minor change that leads to higher levels of aggression. This accounts for everything that follows. Al the same events, just with higher levels of aggression
I’m assuming that it was because the Roman Empire never fell. This theory is supported by some “Discovery” dialog and it is also revealed that the Terrans in the MU are suffering from a medical condition that makes them very mean.
I know this is a little older video but I would like to say that this was a well thought out and interesting take on things. Well done for a small channel that perhaps shouldn't be so small?
I always subscribed to the Edith Keeler branch off theory but too much evidence piled up against it. I'm glad you mentioned that the Kelvin timeline may not just be a branch but a wholly separate reality just like Mirror Universe seem to be because Kovich in Discovery season 3 pointed out that whatever was happening to Emperor Georgiou happened to someone else in the 24th Century and the working implication was that he was from the Kelvin Timeline. My working fan theory for now, to line up with the mycelial network "physics is biology" stuff is that there is some type chirality mechanism involved.
I agree. I enjoy the idea that the only real difference is that of attitude. The TE is just simply more aggressive. Societies in that time-line saw more logic in force rather than cooperation. The beauty of this trope is that it is in fact the reflection of humanity in the mirror. Almost the same but not quite.
It's also plausible that the Bajoran Prophets don't have mirror counterparts at all and are the same beings across all realities. They do after all transcend time and space.
i am of the opinion that the mirror universe is not a diverging timeline but rather an actual "mirror" universe. The star trek universe and the mirror universe are reflections of each other, one might be prime and the other merely reflecting the other but i would assume each is equally real. Each has the same people and similar institutions even over such a long timeline as we have seen because they are linked, what happens in one happens in the other as a part of the basic physics of their universe.
I think the JJVerse should or is better as an alternate reality that already existed a twin to the prime that was generally the same before 2233 but was thrown out of wack by Nero and Spock’s incursions.
Sorry I'm late in posting this. Been saving interesting videos as workout videos and splicing them together to get to the right time. You make some interesting videos and this one is particularly good. So well thought out. Well presented with the script video editing and very thought provoking.
Yeah, the fact that a survey in TOS was around the same size as a scout ship means that the USS Kelvin, a survey ship, that existed prior to the " divergence " was already disproportionately larger than a TOS would be does lend credence that the JJverse Trek was already treading it's own path before the ship of unnecessary pointless barged in and screwed things up.
I can't say that I agree with the path you took to get there(about scout ships and the Kelvin size thing) I think I'd agree with the concept that the JJ-verse already existed and that's some of the reason why it's so different from the prime universe. JJ basically did make up his own universe based on the "StarTrek" universe, but with only superficial resemblance, as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks so much for this fun and inspiring (I like to write stories) video. Your channel has become my go-to in order to de-stress from everyday life. I also gotta say I like your black jacket on you, it's pretty cool looking and attractive!
You can have an infinite number of apples without having a single orange. And I don't get why everyone assumes either one and only one universe or literally everything even vaguely conceivable. Why can't there be rules and parameters to even the infinite?
As not all Treks have Mirror episodes. However, it does have to be mentioned that there are two almost episodes from The Next Generation Series. The two episodes are Second Chances (TNG) and Defiant (DS9). William Riker's transporter twin Thomas, has an appearance in both.
1:39 Say what you will... Logic or no... That was rather clever and creative af..!! I mean, that's as about waxed as words could possibly get...arguably..!!
Here is my theory Dr.McCoy inadvertently created the mirror universe. In the episode, The City on the Edge of Forever he doesn't save a woman and the timeline returns to normal. But what if his mirror universe counterpart did save her and thus changed history forever, this episode takes place way before mirror mirror. Just imagine, the U.S. is losing to both Germany and Japan and then is under their occupation. They ultimately fight back and win their freedom but, those events so change American society they become a lot more hostile. A nuclear war still happens just like the prime timeline but this and the fact they lost the second world war sets in stone that universe fate. Or am I overthinking this? Just saw the full video, I guess my theory is kill. xD
To me, it really feels like we are viewing different mirror universes with different divergence points for each series with the crossovers occuring at the point in time where they had the most similarity to the prime universe... It's the only way I can justify all the people having counterparts that are alive at the beginning of the episode because of all the literal backstabbing to get promoted stuff going on. With the way the Mirror Universe was generally depicted to work, all but maybe one or two members of the cast should already be dead by the time of any crossover because of failed plots to kill superior officers, successful plots to kill superior officers, superior officers executing underlings, and generally just killing off people you don't like when no one's looking. Perhaps the point in time that's most similar between the universes is where crossovers are the easiest? Since the initial crossovers tend to be random and accidental in nature, it would seem likely that the one someone gets sent to would be the most similar of the bunch at the time, and after that point begins to drastically diverge to the point where another accidental crossover would be unlikely, but purposefully attempting to reach it could still be possible if you analyzed the data to target that specific universe... If you were to, for example, revisit the Emperor Hoshi timeline in the TOS era, you would likely find that most of the TOS characters never existed, and even though there may be more crossovers to that universe, it likely wouldn't be from the same source unless someone was specifically trying to target that one somehow.
What if "the mirror universe" was a misconception and we are actually dealing with "normal" alternative instances of the universe in the multiverse but there is some kind of attraction between instances with a certain similarity? Everytime someone crosses to "the mirror universe" he actually crosses to the alternate universe that is closest by the rules of this attraction mechanism. This would explain why the cast members always stumble upon their own counterparts despite the almost impossible likelihood of the same person being at the same place in such a different universe.
Obviously, the Cochrane Incident in "Enterprise", is meant to give a frame of reference, however, it's clear that thus Cochrane us not the same man as shown in "First Contact", so it implies that some major divergence has already happened. sometimes
I also thought that the Mirror Universe was created by McCoy saving Edith. This was circa 1975. It seemed to fit elegantly there. What changed my mind was reading Harlan Ellison's "City on the Edge of Forever" script in "6 Science Fiction Plays" (it's amazing his first draft was published twice, both times claiming to be the premiere). In it, Kirk and party beam up and find an evil pirate ship in place of the Enterprise. I wondered where the ISS Enterprise was in "City on the Edge of Forever."
I have seen the "Mirror, Mirror" episode of Star Trek TOS and I just never much cared for it. I know about all of the variants that have been hypothesized about, but it turns out to be like reading a book and then when you approach its end you discovered that the final page of the story has been torn out and is now missing.
Considering the first major changes in the prime timeline (from real life) happen after ww2 than i think its safe to say everything before that happened the exact same with maybe world war 1 or 2 happening differently.
It seems plainly obvious that the mirror universe has no divergence because it was never identical at any point. It's simply a completely separate universe that aligns very closely to the prime and has some sort of 4th dimensional tether that causes weird interdimensional echoes between the 2.
Could it also be possible that the mirror universe was actually created BECAUSE of the event from the storm and the transporter malfunction and didn't exist before it? This could explain a lot of the "couldn't-happen-that-way-and-still-come-out-so-similar" in it's history.
The one-race "Empires" in Star Trek never made much sense to me, particularly when compared to the potential power and technology of the Federation. Empires like the Klingons and Romulans (and presumably Terrans) require substantial manpower and resources dedicated to internal policing of their subjugated races. Both the Klingons and Romulans boast 'empires' essentially subduing and ruling over other species within their territories. To what extent these subject species are involved in their societies is never made made entirely clear, as far as I know. However, it's made pretty clear that they persevere through conquest and military intimidation of their subject species. The Federation has the advantages of the combined knowledge, personnel, and resources of all their member worlds and don't have to police themselves internally with their fleet. The Klingons and Romulans presumably would not have their advantages. Never have we seen non-Klingon or non-Romulan scientists or officers of any significance or number in their ranks. And to maintain these subject species would require considerable internal policing and monitoring of their technological development, I would think. With so much of their attention and resources, not to mention single-species manpower, needed internally, the fact that they can still manage to rival the Federation externally speaks very highly of their military might.
@@kfcroc18 To a degree. But look how long nations or empires ruled exclusively or almost exclusively by one ethnicity or religion have lasted in the real world.
My one objection how the Federation really mostly pays lip service to its all cultures are valid mantra. It heavily pushes one set of values and they are very human-centric if we want to be brutally honest. Obviously that's to show them as the good guys, because we are humans with human-centric values.
Star Trek Online gives the KDF Nausicaans, Letheans, Orions, and Gorn as species they recruit from. Romulans have the Remans (and as an empire are more isolationist and xenophobic).
I like to think of the mirror universe as just that, a mirror universe. Being that it has nothing of its own and only reflects darkly the universe that happens to come in contact with it. That way all the instances we have seen can happen without necessarily being connected. Once they leave the universe and go back to their own it returns to the void, it's natural state.
12:08 Ah! Now this is interesting. I hadn't heard this before, the Edith Keeler surviving might be the point of divergence. I feel that I need to dispute you here. I don't think there's anything in the episode that necessarily implies that the Enterprise (and thus, Starfleet) didn't exist after McCoy jumped through the Guardian of Forever. All we know for sure is _they couldn't contact the Enterprise,_ nothing more. All that really means is it wasn't currently in orbit and in communicator range; not that it didn't exist. It's possible it existed elsewhere. You could speculate that the Mirror universe was created by Dr. McCoy's act of jumping back in the past, and that Kirk and Spock didn't "fix" history, they just moved themselves and (somehow) the landing party back into our universe, while the Mirror universe continued on in parallel, unseen just "off stage". It's not to say that the Terran Empire was a direct descendant of Nazi Germany, but a Nazi victory might have resulted in a much more brutal world from which the Empire eventually emerged. It does solve a lot of problems, like why the English language is still so similar and why so much of the technology and the social structures are so familiar... because the point of divergence is only about as remote for them as the French and Indian War is for us.
I think some set of events probably across the centuries set them on their course to being more inclined to see violent actions as pragmatic solutions to issues which eventually leads to WW3 much like the prime timeline with the same people involved. Whereas other minor circumstances led to the same outcome in the prime timeline but having its people with a different outlook/belief system. This theory might seem odd to people but you have to remember that even people who seem to not want to go to war will go to war just as often as people who see war as a means to an end which is where I think the key difference between Mirror and Prime universes lays. In this context, it really means that some common events will always inevitably lead to certain outcomes like WW3, Vulcan First Contact, etc but others allow for divergences such as the rise of the Terran Empire in the Mirrorverse and the Federation in the Prime.
After whatever the POD was, the kind of 'point' of the Mirror Universe is that from then on the human characters become essentially, evil, then they effect the other races. So it's not going to be something like 'the Nazis win the war' but rather, the allies won, but they were evil, if it was after the POD. All we really have to go on, in terms of the canon, is Phlox's comment about Shakespeare being the same, so that would suggest whatever changed history's course was after him, but before any of the other historic literature he read. Not much to go on! But seems more like something changes the ideology of the players in history that helped lead humanity towards what it became, rather than just the evil men of history winning out.
One theory about the mirror universe that I *can't* immediately disprove...is that we're living in it right now :/
As a child back when there was only the original series mirror canon, I imagined our world as the unifying glue both uniting and keeping separate the main and mirror universes. While in a weird almost literal way that's obviously true. But I like it as a narrative concept. Our real back and forths between fascisms and freedoms lead to "quantum echos" of positive and negative waves that impact/create the two main Star Trek realities. Or from their perspective, we're the muddy result of averaging theirs.
That would be terrible, or that we might live in the world of James Camerons Avatar lol but i love the video and hope we are wrong!
The alternate opening sequence of Enterprise episode In A Mirror Darkly shows the Nazis winning World War 2
Jonathan, my man, I talked about this misconception in the video lol
@@OrangeRiver No i got that im just not understanding how its a misconception if its mentioned
I remember many years ago a Star Trek graphic novel, released before TNG, that showed the rise of the Terran Empire, the point of separation from the Prime Universe was the Earth/Romulan War, in the Prime Universe the war was fought entirely in space whereas in the Mirror Universe the Romulans invaded and conquered Earth. Eventually the Terrans overthrew their conquerers and the Empire was formed using the motto “Never Again” and started their own conquest of the Alpha Quadrant in order to ensure that humanity would never again be subjugated.
Yes. True
First contact with vulcans was different
That was the old Marvel Star Trek comics from the early to mid 1980s. Noteworthy not only because they created a Mirror Universe sequel that ran for several issues (later collected in a graphic novel), but also that they had a Klingon named Konom serving aboard Kirk's Enterprise, uniform and all, a few years before The Next Generation premiered in 1987. 🖖😎👍
I think the Enterprise cold open - despite being Terran propaganda - was intended by the writers to create a definitive framework and timeline for the Mirror Universe. This was required to establish the setting for "In a Mirror Darkly" and combined with the revised titles have the added benefit of summarizing events for any viewers who may not have seen the prior Mirror episodes. I mean, setting up the show is that's what a teaser is for.
I think the Shatnerverse novels also muddy the waters for some folks that have read them and mix the novels with canon.
In them Prime & Mirror Spock discuss the history of their universes and find the first divergence they can find is that around the time of First Contact there's a lake that's renamed to Lake Riker in the Mirror Universe, indicating that First Contact is a divergence point.
It is an interesting idea, but contradicted by officially filmed and distributed canon Trek.
The next seasons of Picard and Disco appear to involve fractured time lines, and Section 31 is led by a Mirror Universe empress. I have a feeling even Brannon Braga will get whiplash from all the time travel.
🖖🏻
The Enterprise cold open for "In a Mirror, Darkly" with the historic panorama of war and tyranny and the bleak music is my favorite Trek open by far (sword through the earth logo on the flag planted on the moon, lol) The Enterprise take on the mirror universe has to be the most fun and entertaining version across the franchise. The entire crew acts like pirates. Archer has a perpetual 5 o'clock shadow and is an insecure, suspicious version of his prime self. Same for others like Forrest (interesting that Archer and Forrest both hold mirror ranks under where they wind up in the prime universe... crime doesn't pay?), Tucker with the delta ray scarring, Phlox with his penchant for interspecies torture ("would you kindly die?"), T'Pol being a weirdly similar version of her prime self... All played straight and all devastatingly funny at the same time for this fan.
@@Ootgreet1 Given how the cold open of "In a Mirror, Darkly" appeared in "Star Trek: Enterprise", then it seems, that most of the rest of the universe was actually peaceful, until the Terran Empire emerged. This 'all the others were fine and humans were not' thing could be proven by the fact, that the Vulcans came in peace, exactly as they did in "Star Trek: First Contact".
@@mardus_ee I think it was straight up Terran propaganda though, it was showing human strength, that was the overarching theme.
If they mentioned other species peace it was because they viewed it as a weakness, not because they weren't capable of war.
You always view your enemy as a simplistic version of themselves, those at peace are pacifists, those at war are warmongers, those eating are gluttons, those starving are lazy... there's always a twist that can be added as an excuse.
Agreed. Like it or not, the TNG crew were always supposed to be apart of humanity's first contact
I remember the book Dark Mirror. Picard reads the end of Shakespeare's "Merchant of Venice" where we do get the pound of flesh. He then notices a Bible but decides not to see how that's different (IMHO a decision to keep from offending a christian reader). There is an observation that the stars are different. My theory is that there are fewer stars in Mirror Earth's galactic arm or something keeping Earth from seeing all the stars in the sky. Without the beauty of the night sky, humanity goes down a darker path. It may be cheese, but it does fit in with the themes of Star Trek.
Let's be honest Star Trek has never been one to avoid cheese so I could totally see them going with that idea, might even try to blame that for Terrans being more sensitive to light though that doesn't really make sense but I'm not a fan of that idea to begin with.
@@GrimmShadowsII perhaps their sensitivity to light came from years of pollution in the sky. After all, if they are evil, then the idea of environmentalist will never happen or something.
@@coinsilver3 they're not evil just more Savage and brutal likely due to some threat in that universe, hence the theories that it was knowledge of the Borg threat and losing the human Romulan war theories
@@GrimmShadowsII but my main theory still stands, pollution may be the reason for their light issues.
@@coinsilver3 I don't think it was the pollution. Sensitivity to light can happen, if a species usually develops in a darker environment, which is what the Terran Earth might have been, compared to ours.
If I were to take Alverant's theory to account, that Terrans could not see as many stars, then this may mean, that Earth was clouded by darkness for some reason.
Would it mean, then, that there were more clouds during the prehistoric Terran Earth, which clouds might have blocked sunlight more? More clouds at night, for example, blocking the view to the stars?
Michael Burnham said in one Mirror episode, that 'even the light is different', but this could also be Mirror Terran starship windows being tinted darker to adjust to Terrans' sensitivity to light.
I remember old novels written by William Shatner, where Kirk went to become the terran emperor. In this novels the point where both universes split, was the first contact, not because Cochrane shot the Vulcan, but because the crew of the Enterprise wiped the memories of Cochrane and his assistant but while in the prime universe this worked and they didn´t remember anything about the Borg, in the mirror universe this method didn´t work and Cochrane built the new alliance with the vulcans around the knowledge, that there are threats in the universe that can und want to kill the human race, so the humans need to be strong to survive in this galaxy. I always liked this version of the events.
"Which was neither Roman, nor Holy, nor an Empire."
I almost choked with laughter 🤣
Misconception: the assumption that there is one mirror universe.
Star Trek has shown us glimpses of many parallel universes, different timelines, etc. Some have a single defined point of "divergence". Some are "alternate" timelines which had an "alternate" past and will have an "alternate" future. Each of these would have a unique "mirror" counterpart as well. And each mirror could itself "diverge" into any number of "parallel" or "alternate" mirrors. We can't even be certain whether the shows keep visiting the "same" mirror universes.
this is the one with goatees and lots of leather and latex. do pay attention!
I think sometime in the distant past, a Dinosaur stepped and didn’t step on a small insect. That is to say, the universe where it did step on it is the Mirror universe and the one where it didn’t is the non-mirror universe. Let’s call that insect a proto-butterfly. ;)
I more or less follow Rom's view in that the Mirror Universe "just doesn't make any sense." As you said the coincidences are astronomical and any historical change would cause massive divergences but nothing makes any sense. I mostly just turn off my brain and don't think about it or how the Empire or even any ship could remotely function and have any stability at all with everyone constantly trying to assassinate/backstab each other.
If there is any "explanation" for it I would probably chalk it up to Q creating the dimension for the benefit of the Prime humans to ether taunt them and/or push them to correct the flaws they see in that exaggerated funhouse mirror.
The Roman Empire lasted for centuries despite Emperors dropping like flies from assassination
@@DMS-pq8 Not really. The point were emperors were dropping like flies was the Crisis of the Third Century and ultimately led to the split of the Empire and the beginning of the crumbling away of the Western Empire.
Im sorry that little wink about Voltaire and Frederick the great’s relationship sent me down a rabbit hole
Lmaooooo
I had a co-worker years ago try to explain that the Kelvin Universe exists because of the events of Enterprise where they interact with the Borg causedhuge jump in technological understanding. This was also his way of way of saying Enterprise was no canon, but its a interesting thought.
To be fair events in Enterprise do contradict things said in TOS, which suggest it's an alternate timeline. I didn't watch it alot but I know there were a few ecounters with Romulans but in TOS they seemed to know almost noting about them even being surprised they looked like Vulcans as well as Spock saying something along the lines of ships using Nukes and not having warp drive during the human romulan war but it's been said by producers, and maybe hinted at on the show, that the war hadn't happened yet even though they launched 2 warp 5 capeable ships. Personally I don't use the term canon with Star Trek because it's established since close to the beginning that there are multiple timelines so pretty much everything you've seen or read has happened just not everything in the same timeline.
Your videos are well explained as to the background facts and Information on Star Trek timelines . Keep up the explained videos
Thank you!
I've also seen it said that the Terran Empire somehow had its roots, or rather, the point of divergence from the Prime Universe happened around the time of the Roman Empire. I think that's where that theory comes from.
I don't think that was a machine fun Cochrane pulled. It looks more like a slightly futuristic sawed-off shotgun.
That fits the TOS episode where Rome didn't end, but like China continued to the present evolving not being superceded.
FYI not a machine gun, that was a shot gun he used to shot the Vulcan.
@mylifein8bit: shoot* 🙄
Good exploration of some of the origin theories of the mirror universe, including some I've not heard of before!
I too subscribe to the Simon Pegg explanation for the Kelvin timeline, it's just so much simpler and eliminates the continuity issues
you have put your video a very well put. thank you for the ORIGINS
I had always liked the concept set forth in the movie "Waxwork 2" of a parallel universe that was connected with our universe as a sort of playground/video game universe for higher beings to play around with, and the mirror universe was connected to prime universe with the Q (or some of them at least) being the entities responsible seems logical.
That's an interesting idea, it wouldn't even have to be the Q as there have been several godlike races. The Metreons specifically commant on Kirk's choice to not be violent but to be mercifer and spare the Gorn captain in Arena.
I like the idea that the Kelvin timeline has always existed - we've seen ships travel back in time and to the mirror universe in one fell swoop, it makes sense that the same could happen to the Kelvin universe.
The fan series Star Trek: Farragut did a time travel ep that hinted that the Mirror Universe diverged from ours not long after the American Revolution. While not expounded upon as far as I recall, there's a chilling scene near the end where George Washington stabs a knife through an apple and leaves it standing on his desk as he heads into battle. Of course it's all fan speculation and I can't see how it would hold water, but it's a great scene anyway!
I agree with you about the last one - the idea that humanity can’t overcome its warlike impulses except with someone already from a better future coming and telling someone about it is just… so degrading. It’s definitely not an optimistic viewpoint.
Also I was very happy when you discussed how many other empires just claim to descend from Rome with no real backing. Too many people who don’t know that history take those claims at face value, and it’s a problem both in fiction analysis and in real life.
They said in ST Discovery that the quantum frequency of atoms was slightly different than the prime universe. Its like in music where the A is generally tuned to 440hz, but a lot of old stuff was tuned in 432hz. We obviously used alot of different tunings but its an easy way to understand the concept.
Honestly I love this topic discussion so much I can’t wait to see more from the mirror universe
I'm sticking with my theory that the Borg and the enterprise-e going back in time is not a predestination Paradox it is a continuation of a now altered timeline or you can call it an alternate timeline it's up to you.
It has always bothered me how there were duplicates of basically everyone especially when you get to end of it in DS9. All the deaths, Smiley's missing wife and kids, and everything else. In my mind, either the mirror universe split at a certain point and continued to become more and more different, reinforced by DISCO season 3 saying it was "moving away" (my head canon is to force all shows into one continuum) or all Star Trek universes are free standing variations of the multiverse like you brought up. For this "fiction" to be "true", I'm pretty sure your take is correct..."but I don't like it". Excellent video again. Thank you!
Why couldn't some force, not necessarily entity, naturally push them back into similarity? Like some multiverse version of entropy, they just "fall" into sync. (For the record, I don't watch Discovery, so have no idea how it adds or subtracts from other series' episodes.)
@@patrickmccurry1563 when I think of entropy, I only think of short term disorder and not the long term "smoothing out". If we ignore the notion of free will, and assume a deterministic universe, then "what must happen, will happen" to balance out the multiverse. That means Jake is fundamentally unimportant to the multiverse, because in the mirror universe he never was even born. Same with Mollie and Yoshi. Taken to it's extreme, important people are born in all universes, unimportant people get to be nameless slaves of the Empire or Red Shirts. You are correct though, there are entities forcing continuity across all universes...at least in the case of Star Trek universes LOL
@@patrickmccurry1563 you should check out Discovery if you get the chance. All the new shows are BIG departures from what we've come to expect but they do tell interesting stories for sure. Lower Decks has changed my whole opinion on the lore of all shows despite openly mocking the thing I love.
The Terrans are regular humans whose history had different events that diverged from the prime universe. I believe that the Gerco Roman empire never truly fell and continued on in some form thru out the centuries. Plus I think the arrival of the USS DEFIANT NCC 1764 in the mirror Universe caused a divergent timeline within the mirror Universe that showed up in Star Trek Discovery.
I love this topic! I would hypothesize that the Prime & Mirror universes split at the same time that we KNOW another universe/timeline was created! When Nero travelled back, creating the Kelvin timeline, it actually fractured the universe, and just like when you fracture glass, these cracks travelled forward and backward through time. In fact, I would even go a step further and THEORIZE that Discovery takes place in its own timeline as well, (also created at this time) which would explain the MASSIVE differences that we see there vs. what we know the Prime timeline should look like. (Primarily with the level of technology.) This would give us 4 known timelines and would actually clean up a lot of continuity issues. Also, I wrote this before watching the whole video. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it…
I would also place STP as being from the STD timeline.
@@merafirewing6591 so... All the kurtzman stuff is all from another timeline?
I'm ready to inhale & overdose on this copium.
OrangeRiver , I love Star Trek and I love all Mirror Universe episodes. Having said that, I must confess that there is only one real issue with the Mirror Universe concept. That issue is the fact that after just one generation of people in one Universe behaving different, it would be extremely unlikely if not impossible for the same people to be born after hundreds of years of indifference. Therefore, if a Mirror Universe existed with the same people having different personalities, it would have to be because all of our lives are destined. I don't believe in Religion, but that would make it certain that something or someone's divine plan is in control. I wonder how many Trekkies are Ashiest ?
One more thing, OrangeRiver, The opening credits of the Star Trek 2 part episode A Mirror Darkly, IS IN FACT CANNAN. That proves that the split between ours and the Mirror Universe occurred at least before the Vikings sailed to the Americas. You should study that globe shown when the opening begins, it's very interesting and I'll bet a closer examination would reveal the true secrets of the Mirror Universe.
I think the theory is that there's some force tying the mirror universe to the prime universe, ensuring most individuals have a doppelganger - maybe their souls or whatever (an actual concept in Trek) are linked?
You have to go to Futurama to figure out what went wrong in the Terran Universe, Bender didn't step on the first fish to walk on land.
Awesome video! Thank you for your thoughtful approach to the Terran Empire origin question. I think you're right (later video I watched before this one) that an alternative US is the foundation of the Terran Empire. I appreciate your attention to historical detail and logical projection of how history could have been.
The problem with 'it would be too different' arguments is _within_ the Star Trek universe there are things that should not exist such as the Roman Empire with English in system 892, the US constitution and flag on Omega IV, and the duplicate Earth (Miri). It should be noted the lead in to "In a Mirror, Darkly" shows the emblem of the Empire during what appears to be WWII, then an atomic bomb explosion, and then the Empire landing on the moon. This "sets" the birth of the Empire no later than WWII.
I always liken the Mirror Universe to DC's Classic Earth 3 where everyone is culturally and psychologically more cynical.
I still think the biggest misconception is that the Trek Mirror Universe diverged from the Trek Prime Universe.
The multiple differences together with the multiple similarities that are both inconsistent with a temporal divergence suggest they are simply parallel universes sharing some basic "metaquantum" links.
Totally agree! Someone else mentioned quantum entanglement--a subject I danced around in my prior video about the science of the mirror universe--which I think could be at play.
@@OrangeRiver Yeah. It needs to be more properly named in trekbabble I think: Temporal Metaquantum Dynamic? Orthotemporal Quantical? Heinlein Flux?
Glad I just recently found this channel. I am loving catching up on your past stuff!
I did the same thing lol!
Even the "Third Reich" has a reference back to Rome, so it is one of the various regimes that borrowed from Rome to some degree.
4:30 I know that in the Star Trek Online game they actually found a mirror universe orb and returned it.
One theory I heard about the Terran Empire is that it's pretty much humanity sans the empathy shown in the Prime Universe. That lack of empathy can explain things like the murderous actions they take against just about everyone they encounter and has been so prevalent to their society for so long that it's just how they operate on a cultural level.
Back in the '80s there was a story arc in DC's Star Trek comic that said the Terran Empire grew out of a resistance movement that arose after the Romulans conquered Earth in the Earth-Romulan War.
Yeah that's a theory I've heard but the credits to Enterprise's In a Mirror Darkly seem to contradict that. The credits show various historical events one of which looks similar to the moon landing but with a Terran Empire Flag instead of a US and it's likely they landed on the moin before the romulan war even if it wasn't the same as our universe.
@@GrimmShadowsII Because the scenario shown on Enterprise is from a live action show, according to Roddenberry, it's canon. Only stuff from live action TV or movies is canon in Star Trek.
@@jeffjones4654 yeah that's what I meant when I said the credits scene seems to contradict it, maybe a poor choice of words. Before that I was a fan of that theory did to the Romulsns being very similar to ancient Rome so the resistance decided to adopt some of their practices thinking that's why they won the war or something.
Who’s to say that each time we see THE mirror universe it’s actually a similar yet different alternate universe like a hall of mirrors in an amusement park? That would explain the ‘ mistakes’ and retcons Across all media from TOS , comic books, movies , books, DS9 , Enterprise, and the other series and if there is influence between the ‘ prime ‘ and ‘ mirror’ universes it could explain why khan recognized commander Chekov , when Chekov WASN’T ON THE F****ING ENTERPRISE during the events of Space Seed .
@@philvanderlaan5942 Chekov wasn't a bridge officer during the first season. That doesn't mean that he wasn't on the Enterprise. As Captain Kirk said in "A Piece of the Action " ......."There's over 400 guys up there!!!!"
Your production quality is quite good and I enjoy the way you tell the story about the space geek subjects I love. Please, go on...
There is no point of divergence, because mirror universe isn't a timeline. It's a mirror. Everything that happens in main reality is reflected to the mirror universe as an inverted image. Light "feeling different" and there being less light in general is meant to represent the fact that light loses intensity and diffuses a bit when reflected. It's not a temporal or physical phenomena, but a conceptual one. There's some force out there that conceptually reflects the main universe.
The Enterprise mirror darkly Hoshi was hot.
OH YEAH how she looked combine that with her brains to plot and seduce her way all the way up to Empress. Hard Combination to resist.
I remember one theory regarding all those loopholes and changes and inconsistencies being basically due to them being in different/parallel universes. There is a universe x, there is a universe y, there is a universe z, and so forth, and they all split and merge and fork and create all sorts of convoluted webways.
That being said, such things like different universal constants or being simply "wrong-brained" are just ... ridiculously wrong.
So to me, there are many different origins to the Mirror-verse. I am also sure that some Mirror-verses will outlive others (see the comics and books that show Mirror-Picard, or Comodore Sisko, the miliary governor of Bajor), while others may not even have reached Kirks time. I am also sure that not all Terran Emprires had an Empress Sato or Empress Georgiou or Emperor Spock....
In a "Trek" novel(probably 'Dark Mirror'), the Empire is known as the the United Empire of Planets.
The notorious Inspector Tyler is back! Like other fans are noticing your soft lighting and sense of cinematography (Your shadow on the wall outside your office was hypnotic)is great.It reminds me of old Bogart\Dixon Hill like detective movies where sometime after midnight we listen to your report on a case in quiet awe.This style really works well and your look,voice,and acting add drama that other channels lack.I bet dressing in a white shirt with roles up sleeves, a tie loosely hanging like old time detectives used to dress with a coat and hat on one of those old racks in the background would complete the image,but I'm sure your way ahead of me ! I'm sure you have alot of good stuff planned and it's fantastic how popular your channel is becoming as more people are discovering the best STAR TREK fan show on the net!
This is easily my new favorite channel. Such excellent Star Trek content, that's funny as well. Keep up the great work 👍 👏.
The fact that people are the same across the mirrored universes creates an interesting tether in my mind. Though the fact that the same people share relatively similar lives, puts it past uncanny, to a causal relationship.
This also means very similar universes with the same people should exist as well.
Through that tether many of the other questions you raised would be answered.
3:40 literally any plot where that happens thanks. Jolene Blalock always looked like she was seething, suppressing, and was by nature a much more Romulan-like person. She and Linda Park really got to show what they were about in the Mirror, and it's a damn shame we didn't get a whole season of that lol.
The idea that "pacifists" were the main block that didn't want US intervention in WW2 is a bit galling, since iirc most of the opposition came from US anti-semites (who obviously had reasons to like the Nazis) and anti-comminists who thought fascism was preferable to communism.
There was a large isolationist movement at that time. It wasn't all about hidden agendas though of course many did have those. Look at all the legitimate criticism of America's present policy of getting involved in virtually every sovereign nation's business. If the true evil of the Nazi regime wasn't fully known in the 1930s, why would an average American citizen suspect it?
@@patrickmccurry1563 I'm not saying all isolationists were hardcore anti-comminists or anti-semites, just that the position had more roots in that than ideological pacifism
It’s almost like it was written for an episode of television in the 60s they assumed no one would still be talking about decades later.
I prefer to only consider the implications of City’s premise as important within the episode itself and try not to connect it to greater Star Trek lore, honestly, with the exception of future appearances of the Guardian of Forever such as in the animated series
My first view of your work, sir. Your level of focus is impressive. Also, you crack me up. Live long and prosper.
I've always taken the turning point was where enterprise showed it, right at the moment of vulcans landing on earth and instead of putting our warlike aspects aside, we spread to the stars on our war mongering and conquering.
Hence why there's that tinge of darkness in the mirror universe as there's been no quest to better but a quest of conquest.
Am blown away by the depth and breadth of your knowledge and research, great video.
In the Infinite Universe theory every variation that could happen will happen, but is there a plausible explanation for the link between these particular 2 versions
always saw the Terran empire starting more of a political party inspired by the roman empire, that eventually united the planet ideologically after the vulcans stumbled onto the scene, having a common enemy, united earth and led to new desire for power and to conquer where no man had conquered before, being a dark mirror to our earth united under common cause to go where no man gone before
I loved this video. Anything involving the Mirror universe I’m in for. It’s my favorite.
It's always a mistake to use anything from NuTrek. Kurtzman's additions are just poorly thought out dreck.
I'm in complete agreement with you, Jeff.
Also pointless and irrelevant.
My theory is they have always being separate, but quantamly entangled.
Will you be starting videos about the universe that is Space Battleship Yamato?
The problem is that any major change changes everything. So the mirror universe as a concept doesn't hold together realistically, as much as I love them.
I think it would make more sense if the terran empire was founded by Khan after he conquers the planet and the augments are the ruling class while regular humans are used as cannon fodder. Edit I wrote this before you got to number 8.
It is very simple.
In the mirror universe, human evolved with different serotonin level production.
We end up with a minor change that leads to higher levels of aggression.
This accounts for everything that follows.
Al the same events, just with higher levels of aggression
Always been of the opinion that the Terran Empire was established after Colonel Green won WWIII
I’m assuming that it was because the Roman Empire never fell. This theory is supported by some “Discovery” dialog and it is also revealed that the Terrans in the MU are suffering from a medical condition that makes them very mean.
I know this is a little older video but I would like to say that this was a well thought out and interesting take on things. Well done for a small channel that perhaps shouldn't be so small?
I always subscribed to the Edith Keeler branch off theory but too much evidence piled up against it.
I'm glad you mentioned that the Kelvin timeline may not just be a branch but a wholly separate reality just like Mirror Universe seem to be because Kovich in Discovery season 3 pointed out that whatever was happening to Emperor Georgiou happened to someone else in the 24th Century and the working implication was that he was from the Kelvin Timeline.
My working fan theory for now, to line up with the mycelial network "physics is biology" stuff is that there is some type chirality mechanism involved.
The mirror universe diverged I think at First Contact. Although the opening credits to that same episode implies that it began a lot sooner
These vids are great and tickle my brain-folds. Thanks!
u hit a homerun when you did that close up on Lorcas face lmaoo As much as I love that character you were right to do so
I agree. I enjoy the idea that the only real difference is that of attitude. The TE is just simply more aggressive. Societies in that time-line saw more logic in force rather than cooperation. The beauty of this trope is that it is in fact the reflection of humanity in the mirror. Almost the same but not quite.
It's also plausible that the Bajoran Prophets don't have mirror counterparts at all and are the same beings across all realities. They do after all transcend time and space.
This seems reasonable.
Discussing and teaching history through the prism of Star Trek. Simply excellent!
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i am of the opinion that the mirror universe is not a diverging timeline but rather an actual "mirror" universe. The star trek universe and the mirror universe are reflections of each other, one might be prime and the other merely reflecting the other but i would assume each is equally real. Each has the same people and similar institutions even over such a long timeline as we have seen because they are linked, what happens in one happens in the other as a part of the basic physics of their universe.
I think the JJVerse should or is better as an alternate reality that already existed a twin to the prime that was generally the same before 2233 but was thrown out of wack by Nero and Spock’s incursions.
Ok so where do the mini skirts and crop tops come into the picture? Why did we not have those in discovery ? But they did in Enterprise and TOS.
Sorry I'm late in posting this. Been saving interesting videos as workout videos and splicing them together to get to the right time. You make some interesting videos and this one is particularly good. So well thought out. Well presented with the script video editing and very thought provoking.
Yeah, the fact that a survey in TOS was around the same size as a scout ship means that the USS Kelvin, a survey ship, that existed prior to the " divergence " was already disproportionately larger than a TOS would be does lend credence that the JJverse Trek was already treading it's own path before the ship of unnecessary pointless barged in and screwed things up.
I can't say that I agree with the path you took to get there(about scout ships and the Kelvin size thing) I think I'd agree with the concept that the JJ-verse already existed and that's some of the reason why it's so different from the prime universe.
JJ basically did make up his own universe based on the "StarTrek" universe, but with only superficial resemblance, as far as I'm concerned.
Alternatively: the Kelvin timeline makes use of multiple visual retcons that don’t affect the actual canon and aren’t meant to be acknowledged
i think the mirrorverse is its own thing no divergence.its always been there parallel to ours
Thanks so much for this fun and inspiring (I like to write stories) video. Your channel has become my go-to in order to de-stress from everyday life. I also gotta say I like your black jacket on you, it's pretty cool looking and attractive!
You shoud consider the multiverse and multiple time lines, the events discriybe could be in multiples universes at the same time, or not
There are theoretically infinite alternate realities that would mean if a thing is possible it will exist so a divergent point isn't really necessary.
You can have an infinite number of apples without having a single orange. And I don't get why everyone assumes either one and only one universe or literally everything even vaguely conceivable. Why can't there be rules and parameters to even the infinite?
Tiny nitpick, Zefram Cochrane did not use a machine gun, the firearm he used was clearly a shotgun.
It had been awhile since I saw the episode, you're absolutely right
As not all Treks have Mirror episodes. However, it does have to be mentioned that there are two almost episodes from The Next Generation Series. The two episodes are Second Chances (TNG) and Defiant (DS9). William Riker's transporter twin Thomas, has an appearance in both.
1:39 Say what you will... Logic or no...
That was rather clever and creative af..!! I mean, that's as about waxed as words could possibly get...arguably..!!
In the Terran universe, Gene Roddenberry was never born.
Here is my theory Dr.McCoy inadvertently created the mirror universe.
In the episode, The City on the Edge of Forever he doesn't save a woman and the timeline returns to normal. But what if his mirror universe counterpart did save her and thus changed history forever, this episode takes place way before mirror mirror. Just imagine, the U.S. is losing to both Germany and Japan and then is under their occupation. They ultimately fight back and win their freedom but, those events so change American society they become a lot more hostile.
A nuclear war still happens just like the prime timeline but this and the fact they lost the second world war sets in stone that universe fate. Or am I overthinking this?
Just saw the full video, I guess my theory is kill. xD
To me, it really feels like we are viewing different mirror universes with different divergence points for each series with the crossovers occuring at the point in time where they had the most similarity to the prime universe... It's the only way I can justify all the people having counterparts that are alive at the beginning of the episode because of all the literal backstabbing to get promoted stuff going on. With the way the Mirror Universe was generally depicted to work, all but maybe one or two members of the cast should already be dead by the time of any crossover because of failed plots to kill superior officers, successful plots to kill superior officers, superior officers executing underlings, and generally just killing off people you don't like when no one's looking.
Perhaps the point in time that's most similar between the universes is where crossovers are the easiest? Since the initial crossovers tend to be random and accidental in nature, it would seem likely that the one someone gets sent to would be the most similar of the bunch at the time, and after that point begins to drastically diverge to the point where another accidental crossover would be unlikely, but purposefully attempting to reach it could still be possible if you analyzed the data to target that specific universe...
If you were to, for example, revisit the Emperor Hoshi timeline in the TOS era, you would likely find that most of the TOS characters never existed, and even though there may be more crossovers to that universe, it likely wouldn't be from the same source unless someone was specifically trying to target that one somehow.
What if "the mirror universe" was a misconception and we are actually dealing with "normal" alternative instances of the universe in the multiverse but there is some kind of attraction between instances with a certain similarity?
Everytime someone crosses to "the mirror universe" he actually crosses to the alternate universe that is closest by the rules of this attraction mechanism. This would explain why the cast members always stumble upon their own counterparts despite the almost impossible likelihood of the same person being at the same place in such a different universe.
Obviously, the Cochrane Incident in "Enterprise", is meant to give a frame of reference, however, it's clear that thus Cochrane us not the same man as shown in "First Contact", so it implies that some major divergence has already happened. sometimes
I also thought that the Mirror Universe was created by McCoy saving Edith. This was circa 1975. It seemed to fit elegantly there. What changed my mind was reading Harlan Ellison's "City on the Edge of Forever" script in "6 Science Fiction Plays" (it's amazing his first draft was published twice, both times claiming to be the premiere). In it, Kirk and party beam up and find an evil pirate ship in place of the Enterprise. I wondered where the ISS Enterprise was in "City on the Edge of Forever."
I wonder what the earth and the Terran would have been like IF Khan had won the Eugenics wars and united the earth,and founded the Terran Empire?
I have seen the "Mirror, Mirror" episode of Star Trek TOS and I just never much cared for it. I know about all of the variants that have been hypothesized about, but it turns out to be like reading a book and then when you approach its end you discovered that the final page of the story has been torn out and is now missing.
Considering the first major changes in the prime timeline (from real life) happen after ww2 than i think its safe to say everything before that happened the exact same with maybe world war 1 or 2 happening differently.
I enjoyed this video tremendously as I am sure I will enjoy the rest of them. Thank you.
7:56... Had to Google that 🥲🤔
It seems plainly obvious that the mirror universe has no divergence because it was never identical at any point. It's simply a completely separate universe that aligns very closely to the prime and has some sort of 4th dimensional tether that causes weird interdimensional echoes between the 2.
Could it also be possible that the mirror universe was actually created BECAUSE of the event from the storm and the transporter malfunction and didn't exist before it? This could explain a lot of the "couldn't-happen-that-way-and-still-come-out-so-similar" in it's history.
The one-race "Empires" in Star Trek never made much sense to me, particularly when compared to the potential power and technology of the Federation.
Empires like the Klingons and Romulans (and presumably Terrans) require substantial manpower and resources dedicated to internal policing of their subjugated races. Both the Klingons and Romulans boast 'empires' essentially subduing and ruling over other species within their territories. To what extent these subject species are involved in their societies is never made made entirely clear, as far as I know. However, it's made pretty clear that they persevere through conquest and military intimidation of their subject species.
The Federation has the advantages of the combined knowledge, personnel, and resources of all their member worlds and don't have to police themselves internally with their fleet.
The Klingons and Romulans presumably would not have their advantages. Never have we seen non-Klingon or non-Romulan scientists or officers of any significance or number in their ranks. And to maintain these subject species would require considerable internal policing and monitoring of their technological development, I would think.
With so much of their attention and resources, not to mention single-species manpower, needed internally, the fact that they can still manage to rival the Federation externally speaks very highly of their military might.
I agree with the one-race empire thing. It is kind of weird when you think about it.
@@kfcroc18 To a degree. But look how long nations or empires ruled exclusively or almost exclusively by one ethnicity or religion have lasted in the real world.
My one objection how the Federation really mostly pays lip service to its all cultures are valid mantra. It heavily pushes one set of values and they are very human-centric if we want to be brutally honest. Obviously that's to show them as the good guys, because we are humans with human-centric values.
Star Trek Online gives the KDF Nausicaans, Letheans, Orions, and Gorn as species they recruit from. Romulans have the Remans (and as an empire are more isolationist and xenophobic).
considering they would not have the inherent federation weaknesses there is nothing saying they do not have clones
I like to think of the mirror universe as just that, a mirror universe. Being that it has nothing of its own and only reflects darkly the universe that happens to come in contact with it. That way all the instances we have seen can happen without necessarily being connected. Once they leave the universe and go back to their own it returns to the void, it's natural state.
The source of the mirror universe is Edith Keeler. She lives in the mirror universe timeline as saved by McCoy.
you think like a true trekkie!
12:08 Ah! Now this is interesting. I hadn't heard this before, the Edith Keeler surviving might be the point of divergence. I feel that I need to dispute you here. I don't think there's anything in the episode that necessarily implies that the Enterprise (and thus, Starfleet) didn't exist after McCoy jumped through the Guardian of Forever. All we know for sure is _they couldn't contact the Enterprise,_ nothing more. All that really means is it wasn't currently in orbit and in communicator range; not that it didn't exist. It's possible it existed elsewhere. You could speculate that the Mirror universe was created by Dr. McCoy's act of jumping back in the past, and that Kirk and Spock didn't "fix" history, they just moved themselves and (somehow) the landing party back into our universe, while the Mirror universe continued on in parallel, unseen just "off stage". It's not to say that the Terran Empire was a direct descendant of Nazi Germany, but a Nazi victory might have resulted in a much more brutal world from which the Empire eventually emerged. It does solve a lot of problems, like why the English language is still so similar and why so much of the technology and the social structures are so familiar... because the point of divergence is only about as remote for them as the French and Indian War is for us.
The divergence occurred with First Contact The crew of the Enterprise E created a new timeline where the Vulcans are welcomed instead of slaughtered
I think some set of events probably across the centuries set them on their course to being more inclined to see violent actions as pragmatic solutions to issues which eventually leads to WW3 much like the prime timeline with the same people involved. Whereas other minor circumstances led to the same outcome in the prime timeline but having its people with a different outlook/belief system.
This theory might seem odd to people but you have to remember that even people who seem to not want to go to war will go to war just as often as people who see war as a means to an end which is where I think the key difference between Mirror and Prime universes lays. In this context, it really means that some common events will always inevitably lead to certain outcomes like WW3, Vulcan First Contact, etc but others allow for divergences such as the rise of the Terran Empire in the Mirrorverse and the Federation in the Prime.
After whatever the POD was, the kind of 'point' of the Mirror Universe is that from then on the human characters become essentially, evil, then they effect the other races. So it's not going to be something like 'the Nazis win the war' but rather, the allies won, but they were evil, if it was after the POD.
All we really have to go on, in terms of the canon, is Phlox's comment about Shakespeare being the same, so that would suggest whatever changed history's course was after him, but before any of the other historic literature he read. Not much to go on! But seems more like something changes the ideology of the players in history that helped lead humanity towards what it became, rather than just the evil men of history winning out.
Technically he just says equally grim, which doesn't mean the stories are exactly the same just they have a similar feel to them when you read them.
Kira in _that_ suit!