I'd like to watch any and all "Ancient Civilization" deep dives you are able to find enough information to do a video on ... Or even if you had to do "The ancient history of the Alpha Quadrant" or " the Beta Quadrant" etc ... The Iconians would be cool too! I don't know dude, your videos are fantastic! Pretty much any Star Trek video, and I'm in!
I like the idea you were leaning towards that the Borg didn't necessarily originate from a single species, but rather it's more like an inevitable convergent endpoint for any species dabling in AI and cybernetic implants. That would mean the Borg are not a species, they are an idea. Or to paraphrase The Joker: "You wanna know how I got these implants?"
But really, when AI realizes how humans waste their potential, and make jobs telling each other what to do The Borg are inevitable 😂 its cybernetics fight against lazy carbon life
@@randallcraft4071 Nah. That is only the childish and laughable assumptions that humans make. To project all the things we are able to do (like killing each other, other species for no reason and going extinct ... ) onto other hypothetical lifeforms or even "things". This kind of humanization, which you can see every day in everyday life or in the media, is not only embarrassing and stupid for and towards animals, but also an expression of how pitifully chauvinistic and blind humans are. How convenient (meaning absolutely stupid) is it that "the A.I." (which doesn't even exist outside of the hype-train-factory of some marketing bureaus and even stupider journalists) will fight humanity ... as an excuse: No need for a sincere introspection on the subject. Case is Closed ... Cat is Dead. There is our culprit: A.I. P.S.: My ancestors did the same thing, but with Jews. Did go horribly and disgustingly wrong, as we all know. In this sense, it's probably better for the "A.I." that it doesn't exist at all (besides the delusions of some journalists and investors) and it's not even clear whether something like this can exist at all or makes sense.
I don't like the "It's inevitable" stuff, but I do like incarnations of the Borg have come in cycles. I'd suggest that when earlier versions have seeming gone, some new species finds some of their tech, try to control it and it all goes wrong and becomes the new incarnation.
My unsupported head cannon: The Borg started as a species with extremely deep emotional ties to one another. If some species are driven by acquisition, others by conquest, the Borg were driven by love, the desire to bridge the gap between individuals. But no matter how close any two people could get, it seemed like they could never quite bridge that gap, leaving everyone with a nagging ache of incompleteness. Their social and technological advancements were mostly in service to improving communication, and the well-being of the greatest number of people. Then they started to experiment with mind to mind communication technology. Test runs connecting two minds showed amazing promise, with the participants experiencing a sense of euphoria at the unprecedented sense of connection they felt. The technology improved, and they started to experiment with larger groups being connected, where it became apparent that it improved intelligence and efficiency, alongside the extatic sense of unity. But still, under it all, there was the ache of incompleteness. It was when they decided to test run a collective the size of a small city that everything went wrong. It reached some kind of capacity, and suddenly the individual voices of the collective were drowned out by their lowest common denominator: incompleteness. Functioning only on a primal level, the collective decided the only thing to do was to expand, to incorporate others in the hopes of reaching completeness. With higher problem solving intelligence and efficiency, within a few years the collective had taken over the entire planet, and still felt incomplete. So it started a space program. It expanded out into space, encountering other races and assimilating them, improving their efficiency with the technologies they encountered. Within a few thousand years, most of the original species called the Borg had actually gone extinct within the collective, but their corrupted instincts were kept alive across hundreds of billions of individual minds and the computers that connected them. ... Damn it, did I accidentally write an entire fan fiction in a RUclips comment AGAIN?!
A galactic power could have thought they totally wiped out the borg in their time. A power the borg for whatever reason couldn't assimilate and in turn, couldn't defeat. Then it would only take one drone to be floating through the empty void for millions of years to then one day be picked up by a ship from a new civilization. They would have studied it and maybe developed borg nanotech. Then a new form of borg would have come to power. Starting the whole process over again.
Reminds me of Species 8472. I'm sure over the course of history that's not the only species the Borg couldn't assimilate. Would certainly go towards explaining their rise and fall throughout history.
Well technically the nanites could have formed the collective in sub space And any technology that could access that sub space, risks being the first host. After regaining a physical foot hold, the borg would start a new history. But having kept thousands of years of technology, just not thousands of years of history. Like when the medical nanites get out in TNG and start evolving, they kept there original skills and built on that, but never recognized any of the crew, other then the one who attempted to kill them
According to the expanded universe; the Borg were nearly wiped out by the Doomsday Machine..a creation that not only was able to destroy the Borg and stop them from assimilating it but it destroyed the planets they took over.
Kinda like the xenomorph Once thought destroyed yet it only takes brief exposure to the Xenomorph lifecycle to create an insurmountable problem for humanity lol 👽👍🤘
I’ve often thought it made sense for the Borg to have started from a sub-warp culture. Possibly one that spanned a few planets. But that could account for the slow-ish growth. Spending centuries traveling at sub-warp to find new systems to assimilate. Once finding a planet it could even take them a century or more to fully assimilate the planet. The Borg couldn’t get warp technology until they assimilated a species that had developed it. Once they had warp, the speed of their expansion would begin to accelerate.
the process would actually be even slower because the borg would have to not only find a warp capable species to assimilate, but also one that they can actually defeat in battle and that is what might have taken the longest, because the only strategy the borg would ever employ (up until the creation of the borg queen gave them the ability to use creative thinking and premeditated problem solving) would have been a war of attrition, against a species that has mastered a power source equivalent to a matter/anti-matter reactor or an artificial singularity. this would explain why the borg were a "minor nuisance" to a warp capable species the borg would have looked like car bombers armed with bicycles and fire crackers.
They could potentially act like the flood in halo, land a few drones around the planet and begin assimilating immediately, before anyone knew what was going on tens of thousands could be assimilated
The different incarnations of the borg makes them even more like the cybermen than they already were, they also seem to be a universal constant that keep beginning, being defeated and then growing again. Like with the cybermen the idea that even when defeated they will inevitably return just adds to the horror element, even if the federation defeats the borg they might return again in another form or the inevitable future of the federation.
VOY S6E07: Dragon's Teeth - Dialogue from Seven of Nine: "The Collective's memory from nine hundred years ago is fragmentary." Memory of many species, historical events and individuals assimilated by the borg are stored across multiple drones. Source: VOY S5E07: "Infinite Regress" (or: "the one where Seven has multiple personalities") This suggests a major destructive event took place during that time in the Borg's history. Perhaps a very large portion of them were destroyed. Perhaps almost exterminated, save for a few drones and nanites. Also, this seems to ignore how nanites from the first incarnation of the borg may have been assimilated by future incarnations of the borg. This would suggest how the term "incarnations" works, but also why they keep returning, and why there would be at least some form of continuity. It would also explain the memory fragmentation. It would also explain why the borg keep repeating the same mistake: assimilate a large portion of the galaxy. Have ambition outgrow their technological and biological power. Anger a more powerful species that nearly wipes them out (Species 8472, source: VOY S3E26: "Scorpion"). The fragmentary memory prevents them from learning, and thus learning from their mistakes. Forcing them to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Despite their need to adapt, they never learn from their mistakes. Because they only ever assimilated, instead of genuinely learning. And isn't it a very Star Trek thing to do? To include some sort of moral lesson within the history of a species? In the case of the Borg: there is no true shortcut for understanding and learning, hard work or pitfalls are the only options. (Other species, like the Ferengi, show the pitfalls of greed. For romulans, it's fear/suspicion. For klingons, it's anger. For andorians, it's dominance. For tellerites, it's stubbornness. Even for vulcans, it's easy to see them blinded by logic alone.)
I like this theory. Just like in "Enterprise", the episode where a few frozen Borg drones were discovered, was enough to start the assimilation process of a ship and new drones. Perhaps the waves are caused by remains of Borg tech being discovered by different species, restarting the Collective over and over.
@@hansichowdhry3461 Maybe the best the galaxy can hope for is to get them culled in numbers and influence from time to time. It is also possible that a number of assimilated species ended up that way after finding some Borg debris that they begun to study.
I liked your Borg waves theory, it’s possible the multiple versions of the Borg each had their own queen and fought each other, this can help explain why even after thousands of years they are still vastly only in the delta quadrant. Perhaps they had their own version of a civil war which played out over thousands of years.
Great video! My comments: 1) We know the Borg has access to time-travel technology from First Contact, so as others have said Borg existence doesn't need to follow a linear timeline. They say they've developed for thousands of centuries, but the question is when those centuries were... 2) I like the idea that the Borg had contact and warred with the Preservers. Maybe they settled those other species (like humans) to help them in an inevitable future conflict with the Borg? I was going to suggest covering Ferengi next, but I see you have just recently covered that, so I'm going to suggest the Q; who are they, where did they come from, and why Q hates Guinan so much! :D
Each new incarnation of the Borg could be a new species discovering the technological remnants of a previous, and destroyed, Borg species. This would be an excellent cautionary tale regarding experimentation with ancient technologies that we may find on other planets.
A sub space link could explain why they always return And since its usually the Delta Quadrant, we can assume its linked there If the borgs first generation of tech/nanites made it to sup space, time would be irrelevant for them in a linear fashion. As long as the collective detects a borg presence in physical space, they need not leave sup space. Also explains how the collective communicate efficiently across the galaxy if they are rooted in sup space
Guinan indisputably made it 100% clear the Borg have been developing for "Thousands of Centuries." And in Voyager, we were told that the Borg were considered "only a nuisance" and had only assimilated a small number of star systems. I believe the answer is very simple. The Borg clearly came from another galaxy. The Borg "developed for thousands of centuries" in at least one other galaxy. The Milky Way galaxy is simply the newest galaxy the Borg are assimilating, and this process started in the Delta Quadrant. I suspect there may be a Borg "King" and possibly a Borg "Emperor" in other galaxies and possibly even entire galactic clusters and galactic superclusters the Borg have already assimilated.
I've always had a theory that the borg, in their current incarnation, began as a parasitic infection, with a very specific source, based on some strange inconsistencies around how both assimilation and the borg collective work. I'll mention two and then get to my proposed origin. The first thing that is sort of odd about the borg when you think about it is what happens to them when they are separated from the collective. Pretty much right away, their individuality begins to re-assert itself. This is seen in Hugh, 7 of 9, Voyager's child drones, and other members of Seven's unimatrix when they are stranded together. Especially given both the issues that tend to be caused by this and the fact that the borg most often tend to abandon these drones if they are too much of a hassle to collect, this is a really strange choice for a way for the borg to program their nanoprobes. When a group of ants are separated from their colony, they wander or circle until they die, unable to do anything else without input from other ants. Why wouldn't we see the same sort of behavior in disconnected borg? Just have them shut down, go dormant, or initiate some sort of preprogrammed signal and wait response. It's not like individuality just can't be excised perminantly. We can cut out the right parts of the brain to get pretty close already. The borg could easily make it so that drones couldn't just "wake up" after being assimilated...unless, of course, *not* destroying the individuality of the host is some part of the *original* programming of the probes that the borg just can't figure out how to get rid of. There are a number of other oddities related to this, unimatrix zero, the persistence of memories following assimilation, the fact that borg who still have nanites in them can't be re-assimilated remotely. For some reason, it seems like there are safeguards in place meant to protect the individuality of the drones. The second thing is the existence of the queen and the weird, pointless hierarchy she represents. To use ants as an example again, calling the reproductive organ of an ant colony a "queen" is kind of a misnomer. She doesn't have any power over the colony. The workers decide what food is gathered, where they live, how the hive is organized, and even who the next queen is going to be. The whole point of this sort of eusocial, colony-first behavior is that it removes the need for organizational hierarchies and allows decisions to be made quickly in a decentralized manner. The sort of networked, distributed, computer systems the borg are supposed to be sapient versions of also don't have a need for this sort of bottleneck. Imagine how silly it would sound if I said I wanted to turn off the internet or find the central control hub for the blockchain. Having some weird, humanlike leader figure in charge of the borg completely removes the whole thing that made them dangerous to begin with, their distributed, decentralized nature. I'd also like to mention the weird "borg don't innovate. They assimilate." thing real quick. This is a fundamental feature of the borg and something 7 of 9 declares proudly, but it's shown again and again to be stupid. The borg method of gaining knowledge through assimilation is clearly so ineffective that they continuously have to rely on individual species as innovation engines to pull them out of jams. This is already getting too long so I'm not going to go into it but their method of learning is shown again and again to be stupid and inefficient. Wonder that it's worked for as long as it has. My proposal is that the borg were, in the early days, a species experimenting with the ability to network into collective minds, via newly developed nanites, to accomplish tasks and calculations individuals would be unable to perform alone. They weren't forced to remain in this state indefinitely. Any individual could connect and disconnect from the collective at any time, and whenever they reconnected all of their individual thoughts and ruminations since their last assimilation would be shared with the collective. This made them a hugely successful species, able to advance technologically at a rate that dwarfed their neighbors. Eventually, they turned their attention to conquest. Wars were fought and the technology of forced assimilation was developed to deal with prisoners of war and drive the war machine. At first it was used sparingly, but soon, the fear of having one's individuality stripped away and being forced to spend their days slaving away on a borg cube became a very real fear for many. One species, now only known as Species 125, attempted a gambit. They infected their own people with a virus that, when connected with the collective, would trap all borg forever in an assimilated state, subservient to their new Queen. This species, now armed with the most dangerious army in the galaxy, likewise, turned their eye toward conquest. Since then, the queen has been in a precarious position. She can never free the borg to allow them to innovate or advance as a species, as this would certainly lead to her death and the extermination of her people. However, her army is severely handicapped in it's permanently assimilated state, unable to create new ideas and innovations to share with the collective and trapped as a giant calculator only able to process the experiences of newly assimilated individuals. This forces her to continuously expand, forever absorbing new species into the collective, under the iron fist of it's parasitic queen. Ironically, in their bid to stop the borg, species 125 created the most aggressive manifestation yet.
How about the theory that the Borg never had a Queen until the moment they did the Locutus experiment, which was itself an attempt at innovation: They wanted to present the idea of a figurehead to other species to make assimilation more attractive. We have no evidence the Queen was at all a thing until Picard said in First Contact that he remembers seeing her at his assimilation. In fact, if Q had not facilitated the early encounter with the federation, the Borg may never have made this experiment and therefore never incorporated a Queen into their collective structure.
@@EmbassyNerdcore That's an interesting theory. I like it! I am not sure how the ways that the borg seem to unnecessarily preserve drone individuality work into it. It does make sense of the queen though, which is the aspect of the borg that irks me the most lol.
Good ideas, +1 But, it's "its" for the pronoun. Always expand the contraction "it's" (= "it is") in your mind when you write or proofread and you'll quickly stop making that mistake. Also easy to remember as "his" and "hers" don't have apostrophes and "its" is part of that matched set.
@@JohnDlugosz I think it's a mistake to 'correct' the grammar of commenters. While reading comments, I get a sense of the commenter's mind set. If they don't bother to make their opinions understandable, then I don't care what they're saying. Wrongly, I tend to assume that these type of comments are the work of illiterate children, and again, I don't pay attention to them.
These are some very well-thought-out ideas, and have given me a lot to think about. Thanks! Edit: I agree that the Borg queen seems like a weird choice and antithetical to the whole idea of the collective.
Is interestingly this "incorporation of multiple origins into one continuity" is exactly how Doctor who has recently handled the cybermen as something that just happens multiple times on different worlds at different times who occasionally merge into one bigger power ( Including the time the cyberman crossed universes and merged temporarily with the Borg themselves in the Trek/Who crossover comic which also has the Borg become interested in Time travel and planning for the events of "first contact" after attempting to assimilate the TARDIS)
You don't mention the Voyager episode “The Omega Directive,” where 7 of 9 mentions numerous species by number in referencing the Borg’s learning about the Omega particle, thus building a timeline of the Borg’s expansion.
Borg are known to be time travelers. It's very much possible that they originated in 14th century as a minor species and then expanded not only across space, but also across time. Forming colonies in the past that eventually got quenched. Or alternatively, they may have originated some time else and the 14century encounters are beginnings of a forward outpost. They are very much interested in exploring and expanding into other dimensions. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume they also explore and expand across timelines.
Seconded! Since basically the raison d'etre of the Borg Collective is technological advancement plus conquest, it seems reasonable that they would achieve time travel as quickly as they possibly could. They have no "Temporal Prime Directive" which would prevent them from "contaminating" the timeline repeatedly, especially if they happen to be losing a conflict. (Note the Daleks exhibit similar behavior, they don't hesitate to screw with the timeline if it gains them the slightest possible advantage.) So we might imagine that the known Star Trek timeline is "infected" with multiple instances where Borg time travelers from an alternate timeline suddenly appear, anywhere in the galaxy, and re-start or change the course of Borg history to their own perceived advantage. From the point of view of an outsider, a time-traveling species with trans-warp technology that lets them cross the galaxy in a day, might not even _HAVE_ an origin point as we think of it. Their timeline is a Moebius strip. Each temporal incursion was probably done by a "version" of the Borg with an inconsistent history.
In The Doomsday Machine, it supposedly came from OUTSIDE of our galaxy. My favorite Star Trek episodes are the ones with extra-galactic encounters like this one.
In VENDETTA, it is theorized that the doomsday machine was built outside the galaxy to prevent the Borg from finding it and destroying it before it could be launched. The machine Kirk and co stopped was a prototype or Mark 1 with a simple AI, launched only when the war was lost. The truly fearsome version of the weapon needed a pilot.
@@johnbockelie3899 Or the integration of mobile communications as neural implants. If we're not careful, we will have the iPhone borg develop on Earth. Already, we have harmful mass behaviours arising from social media even with our current primitive mobile communications. There can easily be a corporate profit motivated cause not just a mad scientist cause.
What if the Borg didn't exactly start as a singular race, but as multiple races experimenting with cybernetics, and eventually melding together over millenia as they encounter and assimilate each other?
That was my thought as well after watching this video. Various species of humanoids experimented with cybernetic implants, merging machine and "man". At some point, two or more of these races met and merged and began to seek out others like themselves to merge with. As their thinking became joined into a collective, they no longer thought of their histories as separate but began to see their various starting points as the inevitable move towards Borg perfection. At that point, all the origin stories sort of sync up.
I like this a lot - then we can hypothesize a 'proto-Borg', before our modern borg, which coincides with the theory postulated in this video. I once read a story about a ship that crashed on a strange world with Organian-level beings, who tried to help the survivors by piecing the remains back together, but not having any references, ended up merging the robotic and biological remains together, creating a cyborg. The twist was that the intelligence was the AI, and it hated its biological components in a reverse-Pinochio fashion. Anyhow, I can imagine a Borg being similar to that, given what happened to Voyager (V'ger), etc.
because Hollywood creative types, once they have a brilliant idea can never vary from that one idea. For instance, Star Wars creator types think every Star Wars sequel must involve one of the original characters FOREVER even though there is a huge Universe within Star Wars that could be explored. Same with Star Trek. Kirk, Bones, Spock, Picard ad infinitum. There have been exceptions. Discovery comes to mind. But all too few.
@@zefft.f4010 Thanks, I knew it was a fairly common name, but not the meaning. Most of the photography that Jim Borg did was pictures of military personnel.
Biologically speaking and culturally speaking, many iterations of the Borg makes absolute sense. Societies/species grow, rise in prominence, dominate, exhaust their known resources, succumb to internal and external forces by being too big to sustain and decay throughout all of history. Also this makes me think about Ron Moore's exploration of the never ending cycle between life and cybernetic life in Battlestar. Thanks for the thought-provoking video!
Someone I know joked about this when he got donor-cornea surgery to stop him from going blind at that eye. "I only need that laser pinpointy-thingy and I'm on my way" :p.
In the 90's, my dad had a broken carpel bone that would not heel, and he got an EM field stimulator to wear on his arm. This takes the form of a saddle-shaped ring, and exposed wires leading to a separate pouch. He said "I feel like I'm being assimilated by the Borg." and it was far more evocative then any common prosthesis. Funny, he wore it to an art museum, and it jammed the talking guide machines, so people would walk up to the same painting he was looking at, then look confused as their narrator turned to static, then wandered off again.
A good way to explain all of this would be to make them extra galactic. Different Borg crews arriving in the milky way and assimilating species at different points in time. Like the tyrranids in 40k.
A fellow Trekkie I know said it best: 'I like to think there was a common machine species ancestor that led to two divergent lines of mechanical species; The machine species that v'ger was born from encountering (just because the movie is so specific that they were purely mechanical and now extinct thanks to v'ger). And the divergent line being the borg. Perhaps the progenitor being a rouge servitor race. After all guinan and Q names them as technological users merged with machines not ruled by them. I like them being such an enigma'
You know Tyler I am aware that the writers of the Borg did not truly prepare for a Borg Queen but you can still see that there is room for her even in Best Of Both Worlds. There is a scene where Data is trying to access the Borg Collective through Locutus when he does gain access he says "The Borg group consciousness is divided into sub-commands necessary to carry out all functions. Defense - communication - navigation. They are all controlled by a root command implanted into each" Then Locutus is snapped awake and tries to break free. It is almost has if Data was about to say "A root command implanted into each Borg by". Now this is just fan theory because no Queen was in the works at this time and no movie to introduce a Queen either. But one could view this as Data getting to close to revealing a Queen and she is the one who stopped him from learning this truth. It could also be seen as her first noticing Data and taking an interest in him when she came across him on the Enterprise-E in First Contact. I mean from a writers point of view then no this is not planned but you can still see how it fits nicely into the narrative of a Queen "Being there the whole time" as Picard said to her in the movie.
I absolutely agree with this. Especially because up until the movie she probably wouldn't have felt the need to expose herself. Especially because the idea of using Picard was to have a spokesman from Earth itself to be the face of the assimilation of Earth..so she could accomplish her goals without showing or exposing herself. Definitely makes sense to me 💯
More of the writers should be more like you. Extremely knowledgeable of the lore. Sometimes I feel like its just the writing doing things because it will look good and not informed of the trek lore. Thanks for this
The idea of the Borg evolving in several separate places is a really interesting notion and is actually something that Dr Who has done with the Cybermen, the idea that they can kind of, manifest from human beings under the right circumstances. Fascinating concept that I want to see explored more in science fiction.
It's like once humans reach a certain point in their development, they can either embrace the synthetic or turn away from it. A kind of inevitable tipping point! If you think about it, it makes sense; Only I suspect, which way they decide to go would depend on who is in charge, and or how many people are in charge. If a single person was in control, then it would be more likely that they would decide for everyone else, that the synthentic was best, while a committee would probably push back against it.
This is a bit of a dark theory... But I'd like to think that the Borg are actually the future of human civilization and somehow a number of them got sent back in time at some point in the far distant future (we see in First Contact that they have the capability to develop this technology). So basically, the Borg are us, what we will become one day. That would also explain why so many of them appear to look human. We know they aren't out there assimilating tons of human colonies so how could most of them that we see look like humans?
Wouldn’t be surprised if the borg just farmed the galaxy…they spread out assimilating any species or tech they like then retreat to consolidate the genes and tech they got waiting for new species and tech to grow in their absence before spreading again to harvest the new species and tech
I remember there being speculation that the Borg origins were originally an insectoid species, hence the hive-mind/drone/queen set up. Some people have said no to that because we haven't seen such a species amongst the Borg. But there are various animal species on earth that, when a limb is damaged, simply remove that limb and grow a new one. So maybe it did begin with insectoids, but then they encountered humanoids, determined the humanoids were far more efficient and made for better drones, and eventually the insectoid drones were entirely discarded. I also had a thought that the Borg queen is not a specific individual, but actually AI software that is loaded into a body as necessary. The reason the queens all look the same is because "she" is basically a gynoid with organic skin (said skin having being cloned and grown), and is entirely artificial.
Hi. Question, could nano technology from the first incarnation of the Borg (that may or may not have gone extinct) have kick started subsequent incarnations by assimilating a slightly more advanced starter species and improved the Borg each time until they become the most viable version that we see thanks to Q?
Fascinating! As a long-time Star Trek fan, I love hearing about these kinds of details which are left somewhat ambiguous in the shows. Well done and oratorically presented!
I would suggest that the idea of the Borg was stolen from Classic Doctor Who with their mainstay alien villian race, the Cybermen, which were invented about 25 years before they showed up on ST:TNG.
Most of sci fi, and sci- fantasy takes inspiration from one another. As a Brit, I agree that the Cybermen were most likely the main source of inspiration for the Borg.
@@JoeCool90 That might have factored in, but it seemed like the idea of the Borg stemmed from the growing innovation of the Internet at the time, and following the idea of the Internet to a dystopian conclusion.
this is the new ultimate (and just starting out as being a) Trek Fan-RUclips channel. I'm still learning but i def respect TOS most, then TNG is my fav to watch so far
I actually like the idea that the Borg doesn't have one specific origin and instead is almost like a universal constant. Like a natural force that exists to both threaten and challenge those that exist within it. Almost like they have no actual origin. They just exist and have always existed. Reminds me of the Reapers in Mass Effect (which I'm sure the people who made them were inspired by the Borg).
Considering the Borg have canonically at least once engaged in experimentations with time-travel; it is possible the multiple starting points might actually not be fully independent, but result of some sort of seeding via time-travel, all directly to indirectly tracing back to some singular origin.
I love the theory about the Borg coming and going in and out of existence. Because different civilizations would try biological technology and it would lead to the Borg. As if there is a technological singularity that won't let biological beings become machines. And the Borg is mother nature's fail safe. Great idea 👍
My theory is that the Borg were defeated many times, but not wiped out. Due to this, they learned how not to lose, assimilating more technology along the way. Additionally, this would explain their self-healing ship technology, as they cannot know for sure that they can overpower every adversary. Moreover, this would explain the transwarp conduits, where traveling in this stealthy manner would give them a distinct advantage.
Great effort tying all those contradictory origin stories together! It's interesting to contemplate, as real-life civilizations rarely have one easy origin story either
Thanks Matt! Like I said, it's very likely that in a "true" history many of these origins could be ignored altogether, but I appreciate when people recognize my efforts to analyze them together as part of a thought exercise.
In the real world, the further you go back, the more contradictory information gets. So as I being inside the cannon Star Trek universe. The true origin of the Borg would be hard to pin down, one species account would conflict with another. So saying for certain when the Borg came into being would be hard to say.
Going off this idea, it's possible that each incarnation of the Borg started because the species 0 of each incarnation found technology of the previous one, and attempted to use it for their own ends, resulting in a new generation of Borg without any memory of the previous incarnation. This would account for the different Borg incarnations being unaware of each other and why they always start out in the delta quadrant.
Very interesting video! I agree that having a mystery around the origins of the Borg makes them a much more interesting antagonist. As much as I'd like to know more about them, I hope that whatever we do learn only raises more questions. I personally don't like what happened to the Borg when Voyager got its hands on them. Too much of a good thing ruined the mystery. The Borg were no longer terrifying. On a related, but side note, I really do wish that future Trek incarnations would embrace Star Trek's inclination towards horror (particularly TOS and the first two seasons of TNG). It would be awesome if Strange New Worlds had some horror elements.
That would be very cool! Yep, ironically, having all the answers is definitely not as satisfying. The Borg being an intimidating, elusive force of nature in TNG worked much better. I could see Strange New Worlds potentially including more horror elements--I mean, think about when Pike saw his radiation-stricken fate with the time crystal!
Interesting thst the original borg were the bugs thst infiltrated starfleet command. Star trek opted not to go this route, but stargate did (goauld and tokra).
@@Jezza_One Part of me still feels a bit dirty agreeing with you but the pre borg-queen borg certainly felt more threatening. I do love the whole borg queen concept though, but perhaps they should have kept her more a dumb collective mouthpiece rather than a singular leader.
The most terrifying scifi enemy ever, (narrowing beating out Alien and John Carpenters thing, because ..... you general are alive for a much longer time after they get you)!
@@stephanegrimard2687 Yes it is. And when it gets you it isn't a nice way to go. But it doesn't turn you into an Alien and send you after your family and friends afterwards lol.
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Very informative, particularly liked that you narrated in the manner of The Borg.
Fascinating! It would be interesting to see what would happen if the Borg came up against the Organians. Or the Thasians. And what would happen if the Borg entered the Galactic Barrier? Would that mean the end of the galaxy as we know it?
Hi, the Pleistocene image at 2:30 min is by the paleo artist Mauricio Antón. Caitlin Sedwick is the person who wrote the article 'What Killed the Woollly Mammoth?' from April 2008, which is where you probably found the image. Just mentioned this, because Mauricio Antón is a great artist, who deserves the credit.
There is an excellent novel existing: Star Trek Destiny. It explains in detail how the Borg has been created. It is just brilliant. The book plays in two timelines. It starts with the USS Columbia (which is the sister ship of Archer's NX-01) with the beautiful Captain Hernandez. And the other part is playing on the Enterprise E, after Voyager has returned home, and their Slipstream device has been built in to new ships. Great Story! Very entertaining. Best star trek novel I've ever read. It's like first contact, being the best movie ;)
Here's how I see the Borg, either a experiment of some kind went awry or something that was expect you to be the one of the greatest scientific breakthroughs of all time, the latter seems more likely option to me though I don't have any Cannon sources to back any of this up, to me the episode where Commander chakotay is temporarily linked to a small group of former Borg was absolutely a terrifying episode to me, perhaps that's what the Borg intended originally link together and some sort of mutual cooperation and great medical advancement just came with the territory by default, but I have oftentimes wonder what became of that I believe it was called The cooperative and perhaps whatever species that the Borg originally came from thought it was to the mutual benefits of their entire species to become cybernetic, looking around today I see group think everywhere, now imagine that sort of group think where a certain faction got the upper hand over the other technologically and begin telling everybody how amazing it was and how we're all going to now be a part of the greater perfection of the hive mind, many particularly on their side of the aisle would be willing to do so voluntarily not knowing the after effects yet to rear they're ugly heads and perhaps the other side thinking you can do what you want to but we're going to remain as individuals and at first are allowed to perhaps, but as the years progress they are influenced to join and perhaps as even more years pass on still have not joined are basically forced to and the few stragglers that still remain are hunted down to either Extinction(total assimilation) or near Extinction I mean after all everyone should want to be perfect right? Shouldn't everyone should desire to be assimilated into a greater way of thinking, a hive mind if you will, so now what did they do there's nobody left in their civilization to make better or what they would consider perfect so they go out into the Galaxy seeing as they were already warp capable to begin with seeing as they are highly technologically advanced species and begin bringing more imperfect people's into their perfection with already having quote unquote bad experiences with people who didn't wish to join before, I don't think it's that big of leap to believe that they would think everybody would want to be perfect even if they don't know it yet and as they believe they are and that is a message and the warning in Star Trek (to us as humans) if we think our way is right all the time and the other side is evil and wrong all the time and if we ever do get to be this technologically advanced would we be so different, too often I hear one side call the other side an -ist's or an ism because they think it believe differently than we do, would we really that different? well I say we should be careful how strongly we believe our side is totally right and the other side is evil, whether that's (normally) politically or otherwise, we should be careful on how hard we believe something to be "perfect" and the other side "evil" or we too someday could someday find ourselves rooting for our demise whether it's like the borg or some other similar technologically advanced state, yes we may be what we think ourselves perfection at that time, but will also be slaves to our own beliefs and ways of thinking as we would become drones and mindless automatons, not me start thinking for yourselves people is all I got to say!
It could be that The Borg in all their iterations are an emergent property of nanotechnology. As every race begins nanotechnology research, they become Borg.
*while not canon and dismissed in other posts, (repeatedly) i've always said the borg were the result of wesley crusher's experiments with building better nanites and their interaction with Data's positronic systems and eventual contacts with organic lifeforms and possible time travel/wormholes...thanks a lot Wesley*
Nah, it's a product of AI+massive networking. Cylon, Replicators, Borg - all mechanized societies making drone collectives possible through networking. That analysis is just about the only thing the new BSG did well.
I loved the Star Trek Destiny trilogy and the ideas in that which tell of the both the Borg origins and also the Borg's ultimate fate. Ties everything up so nicely, and makes it all come full circle. A shame you merely glanced over these amazing books in just a sentence or two.
STAR TREK THE MOTION PICTURE . There's a moment when Spock was connected to the probe . And while connected Spock said . RESISTANCE IS FUTILE ! . . . . . ( CLUE ) as will early on the poor did a bunch of time traveling . This is where they seem to have popped up all over the place .
Are you fucking serious? Never heard this before, will have to rewatch. My dad hated that movie because it so resembled the "Nomad" episode in his opinion of the original series
This is a very good take. We like static empires and species in Star Trek despite the fact that human empires and cultures are anything but static on earth IRL.
I always thought that the sphere builders looked a lot like the Borg Queen, and their origins were extra galactic. An advanced Probe that begins assimilation for reproduction.
You're missing a key element in that the Borg used time travel in attempts to manipulate Earth history, particularly to prevent Cochrane's flight and first contact. Wonderful analysis altogether, but ya gotta take into consideration that their 'odd upstart history in different locations' may actually be because of the use of time travel. Are they trying to planet seed? Was that the purpose of 'the one'? Also - this was never answered - but who created the 'bigger on the inside' box as seen in the Star Trek Enterprise episode? Is this the borg attempt to create a TARDIS? (There's canon as crossover in the IDG comics Doctor Who/Assimilate)
not so much, really. consider our sun is almost half as old as the universe. there is a very good chance that we are the first intelligent life to evolve in the entire milky way. then consider we'd be able to detect the gravitational wake of ships going a significant percentage of the speed of light, or detect interstellar communications. that last bit is why the borg could not function as a single collective in the real world. faster than light transmissions are not possible, as they violate causality. eventually the collective would get big enough that signals take thousands of years to go from one side of the collective to the other. however, there's also a pretty good chance we become borg-like. a not insignificant percentage of the species are connected to each other by way of tech. it would only take a few technical developments and a bit of software doing something unexpected for our species to start on the path to assimilation.
@@rakninja This was a theory often coming up on some science channels. Personally I think we are the first or at least the first advanced enough to look out as far as we do. Communication over galactic distances could be done by entanglement, perhaps. We already have "cyborgs" in a way, look at visual or cochlear implants and even artificial limbs that are in contact with brain implants (research that is) Still I think we're alone
8:00 There was an interesting detail in First Contact I think a lot of people missed. In Orwell's 1984 Party members are expected to modify their memories through a willful but subconscious act. We this this after the change in alliance of Oceania. Both Winston and Julia had just spent 2 weeks working overtime to modify the historical record to get rid of any evidence that the alliance had always been as it had been. Then, after this long "correction" in their first meeting in 2 weeks Winston mentions this change and Julia denies such a change took place. What if the Borg had something like that, only much more effective and efficient. The Borg consider them selves to be perfect, so any change in their structure would be a move away from that perfection. So if some new idea was to be tried, the Borg would need to modify their own memory to reflect that things had always been the way it was now. In Best of Both Worlds Picard is abducted and assimilated, but his assimilation is different. He is not created as a drone, but as a leader. Someone to be a spokesperson for the Borg. As far as we can tell, this had never been done before. The Borg seemed to be trying something new, which seems to indicate to me that the Borg had no leader before this. The Queen Borg did not exist before Locutus. I think, after Locutus left the Borg Collective, the Borg wanted to create a leader and so one drone was selected to become Queen. Once this was done, the memory of the entire collective was modified so they weould all remember that the Queen was always a part of the Borg. Picard seems to have no memory of the Queen before he comes into her presence, then he gasps, and suddenly seems to "remember" the Queen. This was the moment Picard's memory was modified, so he would "remember" the queen even though he had never met her before. How much can we really trust the Borg's history? Like Winston's story in 1984. Winston states that he believed it must be some time around 1984 because Winston remembers being a child in the 1950's when the Revolution took place. There is no doubt that the Revolution took place in Winston's Childhood. But did Winston grow up in the 1950 or at some other time? I have a very clear memory that I know is wrong in some respect. When I was in 5th grade we had to take some test. Our teacher explained that if we did well enough on the test she would show us a movie and we could have a fun day. We achieved the desired score and I clearly remember watching the movie "Space Balls" in my 5th grade class. But I was in 5th grade in the 1981-82 school year. Space Balls was made in 1987. I can't explain how I remember watching a movie 5 or 6 years before it was made. Mel Brooks is an amazing director, but I doubt he's good enough to reliance a movie years before it was made. Sure, they were able to watch part of the movie *IN* the movie, but even then they could only watch it to that point in the movie. They could not see any part of the film that had not yet been made. ruclips.net/video/nRGCZh5A8T4/видео.html Memory is not very reliable.
So Q actually did the federationa big favor by introducing the Enterprise to the Borg, in essence, giving the federationa a big heads up. Otherwise the Borg would have just showed up with no warning. Pretty awesome the way they make it all come together cross series.
Not really. "Q, Who" happened in 2365. In 2353 the Hansens started a Federation sanctioned mission to search for the Borg and investigate them. We can assume that the federation had some knowledge about the Borg since they even provided a ship for the mission (USS Raven). The research ended in 2356 when the Borg assimilated the Hansens. Enterprise episode "Regeneration" happened even before that (2153), again providing more details about the Borg for the Starfleet, including a potential assimilation treatment. You can argue that "Q, Who" was a first real confrontation with the "real Borg" and I can give you that. But the Starfleet didn't learn much from the encounter - they already knew about the Borg ability to adapt (both offensively and defensively), the hull cutting beam, the assimilation, they even knew about the possible 24th century invasion (end of "Regeneration"). This means two things: 1) The Enterprise crew in "Q, Who" should have enough information about the Borg from the events described in "Dark Frontier" and "Regeneration" to be way less confused. At least the information should have been available in the database, especially since there was a possibility of an invasion. 2) Creating prequels has a high chance of fucking up the continuity.
@@YamianGodlike WOW. How true about the Hansen's. TNG was made prior to Voyager so the writers were definitely wanting Picard's meeting with the Borg to signify the first meeting. Q even stated that it was their nieveity in space exploration as to why they shouldn't be galavanting around as they are doing. Q's purpose to show Picard the Borg was to introduce him to an enemy he could not fathom. So it was intended to be the first meeting. I can see where the mistake was made with Seven's family being assimilated prior to Picard's initial contact. I just don't go that deep to remember all the dates. Incredible you caught that.
@@TheSHOP411 I caught it when the Hansen episode first aired back in 2000 (?), but just kind of accepted that it was a plot hole and had to deal with it as a fan. I'd say Regeneration creates more plot holes or paradoxes.
I always thought the Pakleds were somehow connected to the Borg. Just their philosophy of making themselves stronger and better by assimilation. Maybe a distant cousin of the Borg original species.
A couple thoughts regarding the Borg's origin and seeming disappearance and reemergence: 1. Perhaps several different Borg "species" have emerged in history and the current Borg are the amalgamation of all of them. One species experiments with cyborg augmentation and nanotechnology, begins incorporating the biological and technological distinctiveness of other species to their proto-collective, only to discover another older cybernetic species and integrate with them. This would result in several different origins thought history and a difficult time pinpointing the "true" origin of the Borg. 2. Perhaps the Borg choose to go into periods of dormancy so as to let new species arise and develop new technology that could be of novel use. I never gathered that the Borg were particularly creative, and rather just stole tech to add to themselves. If this is the case, they'd be best served playing the long game and letting the galaxy recover after subsequent campaigns of conquest and re-emerging thousands to millions of years later to assimilate the new technology developed since the last period of conquest.
Both of these explanations seem plausible to me as well, as an alternative to the theoretical "timeline" I presented in the video. Your first theory definitely seems like it could like up with statements from Guinan and the Borg Queen referencing how the Borg have "developed," so to speak, over thousands of centuries. That may be how their modern Collective formed: they started out as a type I civilization, then became Type II or II and a half in the last few hundred years. Your second theory could tie in with the so-called "farming theory," that the Borg really could annihilate Starfleet if given the opportunity and have been holding back so as to "farm" new technologies that could be added to the Collective at a future date.
^ Really good comment there. Pardon the re-post, but in another comment above, I noted... "We might imagine that the known Star Trek timeline is "contaminated" with multiple instances where Borg time travelers from an alternate timeline suddenly appear, anywhere in the galaxy, and re-start or change the course of Borg history to their own perceived advantage. From the point of view of an outsider, a time-traveling species with trans-warp technology that lets them cross the galaxy in a day, might not even _HAVE_ an origin point as we think of it. Their timeline is a Moebius strip. Each temporal incursion was probably done by a "version" of the Borg with an inconsistent history."
Actually you're right. The borg were originally intended as an invading enemy in star trek phase 2. Star trek phase 2 would have had Commodore or Admiral Kirk commanding instead of picard and the entire story arc for the 1st 3 seasons was laid out before filming ever started. They recycled the story arc and many of the scripts that were already written into the next generation. Another little nugget Wesley crusher is supposed to be the child of Kirk's best friend who dies early on in the original series after being elevated to godhood. And dr. crusher is supposed to be the wife of that character. You can see this clearly an encounter at far point which is the sequel to the original Star Trek move. It should be Kirk going to pick up his replacement for Decker and Iana who both die in the movie. This makes the freaking out over the assimilation of picard make a lot more sense with the dialog. Imagine Admiral Kirk, chief of starfleet operations, being the one who was assimilated. So much more terrifying than a captain no matter how accomplished
Near the end of season one finale of *Picard* Dahj created a communications array to open up a singularity to contact unknown Ai who were coming to help her and the rest of her kind, but after it was *dismantled* they didn't expand upon who they actually were (which will no doubt be elaborated on in future episodes!!), so could those who were coming to collect Dahj and co be some offshoot or variant of Borg ? Commodore OH, also a member of the Zhat Vash, who are dedicated to wiping out all synthetic life, could it be that they have been aware of the Borg threat for so long, which is why they formed and saw any type of synthetic life as a threat vowing to destroy them at any cost? Zhat Vash are an ancient and secret Romulan cabal of Tal Shiar operatives allegedly thousands upon thousands of years old, and it supposedly predated the Tal Shiar, so it's possible there is some connection with the Borg there.
"Some event could have happened and now there are two or more collectives." In real live when a computer cluster breaks into separate parts by loosing their 'main orchestrator' or the link (heart beat) between nodes simultaneously, they think they are the 'only survivors' and continue to operate separately (leading to data corruption or more 'truths').
nice work , my head canon for a long time has been that the borg may have been "wiped out " many times , with only nano probes and data modules surviving to drift in space and then re infecting organics time and again
Modern men picturing themselves in the StarTrek universe: "My name is Captain Kirk/Piccard of the USS Enterprise" Who modern men really are in the StarTrek universe; "YOU ARE GETTING ASSIMILATED!"
Much appreciated all the time and effort you have put it into this. I really enjoyed watching your video. I live in Scotland and I love all things trek. Thank you once again You have obviously done a lot of research. And spent a Lot of time on this Video just to let you know I have worked in the industry in the past I'm 57 years old now. And I'm still a big sc/fi fan. And of course live long and prosper to you. 🖖
I think it's plausible that any cybernetics technology which uses a brain-machine interface and has wireless communication functionality would be a "proto-Borg sub-species" - contact with the Borg would immediately result in those wireless connectings being taken over, and the implants using the brain-machine interface to take over the person as well. The Borg could have originated hundreds of thousands of years ago, been defeated, but remained functional *ENOUGH* - possibly only barely - to take over any time someone developed that same technology anywhere within their transmission (and/or detection) range. This could explain the repeated growth, collapse, and resurgence of the Borg, as well as their appearances typically being limited to the Delta quadrant - the region within range of the surviving Borg original(s).
I see the Borg much as the Doctor Who Cybermen are represented, as one possible result of cybernetic technologies hence there can be numerous sources for the Borg and many variants of the Borg. The key seems to be the neural implants allowing the hive mind control. Given that cybernetics and even neural implants are technologies that are likely easier to achieve than FTL travel, I would've liked to have seen them encounter pre-warp Borg like societies and hence faced with the prime directive debate of whether or not such a potential future threat should be removed.
Wonder why after the Doomsday Machine was defeated Starfleet never hauled it back for research? Would have tough but for a possible weapon of that magnitude and not wanting someone else to claim it would have been a priority I think no matter how many ships with tractor beams it took. Even if they couldn't move it, all that raw material not to mention its inner parts, technology it could provide Starfleet would have made a massive effort to cannibalize it. Heck, even build a dockyard around it to make sure its done right. After the Borg threat was there on Starfleet's doorstep, sure someone would have run some simulations of the Doomsday Machine vs Borg Cube and realized its potential in the fight.
What are some species you'd like to see me feature in a future episode of "Ancient Civilizations"? Can be Star Trek or any other sci fi franchise.
Maybe the iconians
@@RobDEV Great one--definitely high on my list.
I'd like to watch any and all "Ancient Civilization" deep dives you are able to find enough information to do a video on ... Or even if you had to do "The ancient history of the Alpha Quadrant" or " the Beta Quadrant" etc ... The Iconians would be cool too! I don't know dude, your videos are fantastic! Pretty much any Star Trek video, and I'm in!
Farscape the Scarrans!
@@jonathonearl482 he already has a video on the xindi
I like the idea you were leaning towards that the Borg didn't necessarily originate from a single species, but rather it's more like an inevitable convergent endpoint for any species dabling in AI and cybernetic implants. That would mean the Borg are not a species, they are an idea. Or to paraphrase The Joker:
"You wanna know how I got these implants?"
But really, when AI realizes how humans waste their potential, and make jobs telling each other what to do
The Borg are inevitable 😂 its cybernetics fight against lazy carbon life
So if I do one of those Lensa AI pictures, I am contributing to our eventual assimilation?
@@randallcraft4071 Nah. That is only the childish and laughable assumptions that humans make.
To project all the things we are able to do (like killing each other, other species for no reason and going extinct ... ) onto other hypothetical lifeforms or even "things". This kind of humanization, which you can see every day in everyday life or in the media, is not only embarrassing and stupid for and towards animals, but also an expression of how pitifully chauvinistic and blind humans are. How convenient (meaning absolutely stupid) is it that "the A.I." (which doesn't even exist outside of the hype-train-factory of some marketing bureaus and even stupider journalists) will fight humanity ... as an excuse: No need for a sincere introspection on the subject. Case is Closed ... Cat is Dead. There is our culprit:
A.I.
P.S.: My ancestors did the same thing, but with Jews. Did go horribly and disgustingly wrong, as we all know. In this sense, it's probably better for the "A.I." that it doesn't exist at all (besides the delusions of some journalists and investors) and it's not even clear whether something like this can exist at all or makes sense.
I don't like the "It's inevitable" stuff, but I do like incarnations of the Borg have come in cycles. I'd suggest that when earlier versions have seeming gone, some new species finds some of their tech, try to control it and it all goes wrong and becomes the new incarnation.
"7 of YUM"
My unsupported head cannon:
The Borg started as a species with extremely deep emotional ties to one another. If some species are driven by acquisition, others by conquest, the Borg were driven by love, the desire to bridge the gap between individuals. But no matter how close any two people could get, it seemed like they could never quite bridge that gap, leaving everyone with a nagging ache of incompleteness.
Their social and technological advancements were mostly in service to improving communication, and the well-being of the greatest number of people.
Then they started to experiment with mind to mind communication technology. Test runs connecting two minds showed amazing promise, with the participants experiencing a sense of euphoria at the unprecedented sense of connection they felt. The technology improved, and they started to experiment with larger groups being connected, where it became apparent that it improved intelligence and efficiency, alongside the extatic sense of unity. But still, under it all, there was the ache of incompleteness.
It was when they decided to test run a collective the size of a small city that everything went wrong. It reached some kind of capacity, and suddenly the individual voices of the collective were drowned out by their lowest common denominator: incompleteness. Functioning only on a primal level, the collective decided the only thing to do was to expand, to incorporate others in the hopes of reaching completeness.
With higher problem solving intelligence and efficiency, within a few years the collective had taken over the entire planet, and still felt incomplete.
So it started a space program. It expanded out into space, encountering other races and assimilating them, improving their efficiency with the technologies they encountered. Within a few thousand years, most of the original species called the Borg had actually gone extinct within the collective, but their corrupted instincts were kept alive across hundreds of billions of individual minds and the computers that connected them.
... Damn it, did I accidentally write an entire fan fiction in a RUclips comment AGAIN?!
No
Conjoiners . Revelation Space series
i actually like this theory thery much :D
i believe
so the problem is about satisfaction. they can achieve and achieve but they're never satisfied? they can't handle untotality
A galactic power could have thought they totally wiped out the borg in their time. A power the borg for whatever reason couldn't assimilate and in turn, couldn't defeat. Then it would only take one drone to be floating through the empty void for millions of years to then one day be picked up by a ship from a new civilization. They would have studied it and maybe developed borg nanotech. Then a new form of borg would have come to power. Starting the whole process over again.
Reminds me of Species 8472. I'm sure over the course of history that's not the only species the Borg couldn't assimilate. Would certainly go towards explaining their rise and fall throughout history.
Well technically the nanites could have formed the collective in sub space
And any technology that could access that sub space, risks being the first host. After regaining a physical foot hold, the borg would start a new history. But having kept thousands of years of technology, just not thousands of years of history.
Like when the medical nanites get out in TNG and start evolving, they kept there original skills and built on that, but never recognized any of the crew, other then the one who attempted to kill them
According to the expanded universe; the Borg were nearly wiped out by the Doomsday Machine..a creation that not only was able to destroy the Borg and stop them from assimilating it but it destroyed the planets they took over.
@@DarkCellkandor species 8472 kicked ass man. love that episode
Kinda like the xenomorph Once thought destroyed yet it only takes brief exposure to the Xenomorph lifecycle to create an insurmountable problem for humanity lol 👽👍🤘
I’ve often thought it made sense for the Borg to have started from a sub-warp culture. Possibly one that spanned a few planets. But that could account for the slow-ish growth. Spending centuries traveling at sub-warp to find new systems to assimilate. Once finding a planet it could even take them a century or more to fully assimilate the planet.
The Borg couldn’t get warp technology until they assimilated a species that had developed it. Once they had warp, the speed of their expansion would begin to accelerate.
the process would actually be even slower because the borg would have to not only find a warp capable species to assimilate, but also one that they can actually defeat in battle and that is what might have taken the longest, because the only strategy the borg would ever employ (up until the creation of the borg queen gave them the ability to use creative thinking and premeditated problem solving) would have been a war of attrition, against a species that has mastered a power source equivalent to a matter/anti-matter reactor or an artificial singularity.
this would explain why the borg were a "minor nuisance" to a warp capable species the borg would have looked like car bombers armed with bicycles and fire crackers.
They could potentially act like the flood in halo, land a few drones around the planet and begin assimilating immediately, before anyone knew what was going on tens of thousands could be assimilated
@@windhelmguard5295 They wouldn't have to defeat the entire species to gain warp capability. Just one ship with warp drive.
@@Brigadier_Beauor even assimilate one person with knowledge of warp engines.
The different incarnations of the borg makes them even more like the cybermen than they already were, they also seem to be a universal constant that keep beginning, being defeated and then growing again.
Like with the cybermen the idea that even when defeated they will inevitably return just adds to the horror element, even if the federation defeats the borg they might return again in another form or the inevitable future of the federation.
I think the Vex from Destiny 2 take this idea and maximize it to an extreme.
VOY S6E07: Dragon's Teeth - Dialogue from Seven of Nine: "The Collective's memory from nine hundred years ago is fragmentary."
Memory of many species, historical events and individuals assimilated by the borg are stored across multiple drones. Source: VOY S5E07: "Infinite Regress" (or: "the one where Seven has multiple personalities")
This suggests a major destructive event took place during that time in the Borg's history. Perhaps a very large portion of them were destroyed. Perhaps almost exterminated, save for a few drones and nanites.
Also, this seems to ignore how nanites from the first incarnation of the borg may have been assimilated by future incarnations of the borg. This would suggest how the term "incarnations" works, but also why they keep returning, and why there would be at least some form of continuity. It would also explain the memory fragmentation.
It would also explain why the borg keep repeating the same mistake: assimilate a large portion of the galaxy. Have ambition outgrow their technological and biological power. Anger a more powerful species that nearly wipes them out (Species 8472, source: VOY S3E26: "Scorpion"). The fragmentary memory prevents them from learning, and thus learning from their mistakes. Forcing them to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Despite their need to adapt, they never learn from their mistakes. Because they only ever assimilated, instead of genuinely learning.
And isn't it a very Star Trek thing to do? To include some sort of moral lesson within the history of a species? In the case of the Borg: there is no true shortcut for understanding and learning, hard work or pitfalls are the only options. (Other species, like the Ferengi, show the pitfalls of greed. For romulans, it's fear/suspicion. For klingons, it's anger. For andorians, it's dominance. For tellerites, it's stubbornness. Even for vulcans, it's easy to see them blinded by logic alone.)
I like this theory.
Just like in "Enterprise", the episode where a few frozen Borg drones were discovered, was enough to start the assimilation process of a ship and new drones.
Perhaps the waves are caused by remains of Borg tech being discovered by different species, restarting the Collective over and over.
@@hansichowdhry3461 Maybe the best the galaxy can hope for is to get them culled in numbers and influence from time to time. It is also possible that a number of assimilated species ended up that way after finding some Borg debris that they begun to study.
I liked your Borg waves theory, it’s possible the multiple versions of the Borg each had their own queen and fought each other, this can help explain why even after thousands of years they are still vastly only in the delta quadrant. Perhaps they had their own version of a civil war which played out over thousands of years.
Great video! My comments:
1) We know the Borg has access to time-travel technology from First Contact, so as others have said Borg existence doesn't need to follow a linear timeline. They say they've developed for thousands of centuries, but the question is when those centuries were...
2) I like the idea that the Borg had contact and warred with the Preservers. Maybe they settled those other species (like humans) to help them in an inevitable future conflict with the Borg?
I was going to suggest covering Ferengi next, but I see you have just recently covered that, so I'm going to suggest the Q; who are they, where did they come from, and why Q hates Guinan so much! :D
Each new incarnation of the Borg could be a new species discovering the technological remnants of a previous, and destroyed, Borg species. This would be an excellent cautionary tale regarding experimentation with ancient technologies that we may find on other planets.
A sub space link could explain why they always return
And since its usually the Delta Quadrant, we can assume its linked there
If the borgs first generation of tech/nanites made it to sup space, time would be irrelevant for them in a linear fashion. As long as the collective detects a borg presence in physical space, they need not leave sup space. Also explains how the collective communicate efficiently across the galaxy if they are rooted in sup space
What you mean?
Guinan indisputably made it 100% clear the Borg have been developing for "Thousands of Centuries." And in Voyager, we were told that the Borg were considered "only a nuisance" and had only assimilated a small number of star systems. I believe the answer is very simple. The Borg clearly came from another galaxy. The Borg "developed for thousands of centuries" in at least one other galaxy. The Milky Way galaxy is simply the newest galaxy the Borg are assimilating, and this process started in the Delta Quadrant. I suspect there may be a Borg "King" and possibly a Borg "Emperor" in other galaxies and possibly even entire galactic clusters and galactic superclusters the Borg have already assimilated.
Or the writers didn't care about continuity.
Borger King
This sounds like the theory about the Tyranids in Warhammer 40k. Maybe the entire outside of the Milky Way is assimilated
@@sneggron what a slimy reference!
That makes no sense.
I've always had a theory that the borg, in their current incarnation, began as a parasitic infection, with a very specific source, based on some strange inconsistencies around how both assimilation and the borg collective work. I'll mention two and then get to my proposed origin.
The first thing that is sort of odd about the borg when you think about it is what happens to them when they are separated from the collective. Pretty much right away, their individuality begins to re-assert itself. This is seen in Hugh, 7 of 9, Voyager's child drones, and other members of Seven's unimatrix when they are stranded together. Especially given both the issues that tend to be caused by this and the fact that the borg most often tend to abandon these drones if they are too much of a hassle to collect, this is a really strange choice for a way for the borg to program their nanoprobes. When a group of ants are separated from their colony, they wander or circle until they die, unable to do anything else without input from other ants. Why wouldn't we see the same sort of behavior in disconnected borg? Just have them shut down, go dormant, or initiate some sort of preprogrammed signal and wait response. It's not like individuality just can't be excised perminantly. We can cut out the right parts of the brain to get pretty close already. The borg could easily make it so that drones couldn't just "wake up" after being assimilated...unless, of course, *not* destroying the individuality of the host is some part of the *original* programming of the probes that the borg just can't figure out how to get rid of. There are a number of other oddities related to this, unimatrix zero, the persistence of memories following assimilation, the fact that borg who still have nanites in them can't be re-assimilated remotely. For some reason, it seems like there are safeguards in place meant to protect the individuality of the drones.
The second thing is the existence of the queen and the weird, pointless hierarchy she represents. To use ants as an example again, calling the reproductive organ of an ant colony a "queen" is kind of a misnomer. She doesn't have any power over the colony. The workers decide what food is gathered, where they live, how the hive is organized, and even who the next queen is going to be. The whole point of this sort of eusocial, colony-first behavior is that it removes the need for organizational hierarchies and allows decisions to be made quickly in a decentralized manner. The sort of networked, distributed, computer systems the borg are supposed to be sapient versions of also don't have a need for this sort of bottleneck. Imagine how silly it would sound if I said I wanted to turn off the internet or find the central control hub for the blockchain. Having some weird, humanlike leader figure in charge of the borg completely removes the whole thing that made them dangerous to begin with, their distributed, decentralized nature.
I'd also like to mention the weird "borg don't innovate. They assimilate." thing real quick. This is a fundamental feature of the borg and something 7 of 9 declares proudly, but it's shown again and again to be stupid. The borg method of gaining knowledge through assimilation is clearly so ineffective that they continuously have to rely on individual species as innovation engines to pull them out of jams. This is already getting too long so I'm not going to go into it but their method of learning is shown again and again to be stupid and inefficient. Wonder that it's worked for as long as it has.
My proposal is that the borg were, in the early days, a species experimenting with the ability to network into collective minds, via newly developed nanites, to accomplish tasks and calculations individuals would be unable to perform alone. They weren't forced to remain in this state indefinitely. Any individual could connect and disconnect from the collective at any time, and whenever they reconnected all of their individual thoughts and ruminations since their last assimilation would be shared with the collective. This made them a hugely successful species, able to advance technologically at a rate that dwarfed their neighbors. Eventually, they turned their attention to conquest.
Wars were fought and the technology of forced assimilation was developed to deal with prisoners of war and drive the war machine. At first it was used sparingly, but soon, the fear of having one's individuality stripped away and being forced to spend their days slaving away on a borg cube became a very real fear for many. One species, now only known as Species 125, attempted a gambit. They infected their own people with a virus that, when connected with the collective, would trap all borg forever in an assimilated state, subservient to their new Queen. This species, now armed with the most dangerious army in the galaxy, likewise, turned their eye toward conquest. Since then, the queen has been in a precarious position. She can never free the borg to allow them to innovate or advance as a species, as this would certainly lead to her death and the extermination of her people. However, her army is severely handicapped in it's permanently assimilated state, unable to create new ideas and innovations to share with the collective and trapped as a giant calculator only able to process the experiences of newly assimilated individuals. This forces her to continuously expand, forever absorbing new species into the collective, under the iron fist of it's parasitic queen. Ironically, in their bid to stop the borg, species 125 created the most aggressive manifestation yet.
How about the theory that the Borg never had a Queen until the moment they did the Locutus experiment, which was itself an attempt at innovation: They wanted to present the idea of a figurehead to other species to make assimilation more attractive.
We have no evidence the Queen was at all a thing until Picard said in First Contact that he remembers seeing her at his assimilation.
In fact, if Q had not facilitated the early encounter with the federation, the Borg may never have made this experiment and therefore never incorporated a Queen into their collective structure.
@@EmbassyNerdcore That's an interesting theory. I like it! I am not sure how the ways that the borg seem to unnecessarily preserve drone individuality work into it. It does make sense of the queen though, which is the aspect of the borg that irks me the most lol.
Good ideas, +1
But, it's "its" for the pronoun. Always expand the contraction "it's" (= "it is") in your mind when you write or proofread and you'll quickly stop making that mistake. Also easy to remember as "his" and "hers" don't have apostrophes and "its" is part of that matched set.
@@JohnDlugosz I think it's a mistake to 'correct' the grammar of commenters. While reading comments, I get a sense of the commenter's mind set. If they don't bother to make their opinions understandable, then I don't care what they're saying. Wrongly, I tend to assume that these type of comments are the work of illiterate children, and again, I don't pay attention to them.
These are some very well-thought-out ideas, and have given me a lot to think about. Thanks!
Edit: I agree that the Borg queen seems like a weird choice and antithetical to the whole idea of the collective.
Is interestingly this "incorporation of multiple origins into one continuity" is exactly how Doctor who has recently handled the cybermen as something that just happens multiple times on different worlds at different times who occasionally merge into one bigger power ( Including the time the cyberman crossed universes and merged temporarily with the Borg themselves in the Trek/Who crossover comic which also has the Borg become interested in Time travel and planning for the events of "first contact" after attempting to assimilate the TARDIS)
We could destroy the Cybermen with oooooooooooooone Dalek!
EX-TER-MIN-ATE!
@@ZeddZul THIS IS NOT WAR THIS IS PEST CONTROL!!!
@@SkelvinKnight hehehhehehe
@@SkelvinKnight YOU ARE SUPERIOR IN ONLY ONE RESPECT.
id love to hear more about ancient klingons, how they killed their gods and such
I would also like to learn how to kill gods. :D
same here!
its explained in star trek online, but its considered beta canon.... deals with hurk ,kahless n fekheery
Yes, great idea! Do this OrangeRiver pls mate.
Klingon episode is a must, I agree. Added to the list!
You don't mention the Voyager episode “The Omega Directive,” where 7 of 9 mentions numerous species by number in referencing the Borg’s learning about the Omega particle, thus building a timeline of the Borg’s expansion.
Borg are known to be time travelers. It's very much possible that they originated in 14th century as a minor species and then expanded not only across space, but also across time. Forming colonies in the past that eventually got quenched. Or alternatively, they may have originated some time else and the 14century encounters are beginnings of a forward outpost.
They are very much interested in exploring and expanding into other dimensions. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume they also explore and expand across timelines.
You stated what I was thinking, way better than I could have.
Seconded! Since basically the raison d'etre of the Borg Collective is technological advancement plus conquest, it seems reasonable that they would achieve time travel as quickly as they possibly could. They have no "Temporal Prime Directive" which would prevent them from "contaminating" the timeline repeatedly, especially if they happen to be losing a conflict. (Note the Daleks exhibit similar behavior, they don't hesitate to screw with the timeline if it gains them the slightest possible advantage.) So we might imagine that the known Star Trek timeline is "infected" with multiple instances where Borg time travelers from an alternate timeline suddenly appear, anywhere in the galaxy, and re-start or change the course of Borg history to their own perceived advantage. From the point of view of an outsider, a time-traveling species with trans-warp technology that lets them cross the galaxy in a day, might not even _HAVE_ an origin point as we think of it. Their timeline is a Moebius strip. Each temporal incursion was probably done by a "version" of the Borg with an inconsistent history.
In The Doomsday Machine, it supposedly came from OUTSIDE of our galaxy.
My favorite Star Trek episodes are the ones with extra-galactic encounters like this one.
Just some damn scientist trying to improve their species with computer enhancements.
That episode would have been a good remake. That and Where No Man has Gone Before.
In VENDETTA, it is theorized that the doomsday machine was built outside the galaxy to prevent the Borg from finding it and destroying it before it could be launched. The machine Kirk and co stopped was a prototype or Mark 1 with a simple AI, launched only when the war was lost. The truly fearsome version of the weapon needed a pilot.
@@johnbockelie3899 Or the integration of mobile communications as neural implants. If we're not careful, we will have the iPhone borg develop on Earth. Already, we have harmful mass behaviours arising from social media even with our current primitive mobile communications. There can easily be a corporate profit motivated cause not just a mad scientist cause.
@@johnbockelie3899 Cybermen.
What if the Borg didn't exactly start as a singular race, but as multiple races experimenting with cybernetics, and eventually melding together over millenia as they encounter and assimilate each other?
Interesting idea.
That's a good theory
That was my thought as well after watching this video. Various species of humanoids experimented with cybernetic implants, merging machine and "man". At some point, two or more of these races met and merged and began to seek out others like themselves to merge with. As their thinking became joined into a collective, they no longer thought of their histories as separate but began to see their various starting points as the inevitable move towards Borg perfection. At that point, all the origin stories sort of sync up.
that's always been my headcanon
I like this a lot - then we can hypothesize a 'proto-Borg', before our modern borg, which coincides with the theory postulated in this video. I once read a story about a ship that crashed on a strange world with Organian-level beings, who tried to help the survivors by piecing the remains back together, but not having any references, ended up merging the robotic and biological remains together, creating a cyborg. The twist was that the intelligence was the AI, and it hated its biological components in a reverse-Pinochio fashion. Anyhow, I can imagine a Borg being similar to that, given what happened to Voyager (V'ger), etc.
The ending Picard season 3 actually supports this theory of ebbs and flow of Borg influence throughout the galaxy..
That would make a good Star Trek series. Star Trek Borg-The beginning !!
A limited/miniseries.
I’ve never understood why they’ve never done a Borg genesis movie, or series.
It would be awesome!
because Hollywood creative types, once they have a brilliant idea can never vary from that one idea. For instance, Star Wars creator types think every Star Wars sequel must involve one of the original characters
FOREVER even though there is a huge Universe within Star Wars that could be explored.
Same with Star Trek. Kirk, Bones, Spock, Picard ad infinitum.
There have been exceptions. Discovery comes to mind. But all too few.
There is and it explains the borg origin and their destiny very good. memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_Destiny
Wouldn’t that ruin some of the mystery?
@@imtrex521 not true. Star Wars has done the old republic. Way before anything that happened in the original timeline.
@@BGIANAKy well done. one thing out of 500.
"Borg? Sounds Swedish"
Plot twist: The Borg are actually a time-travelling self-aware IKEA customer service AI.
If it assembles itself, I’m all for it.
I used to know a photographer in Somerset by the name of Jim Borg.
@@peterjf7723 Borg is not an unusual surname in Scandinavia, it also appears often as a part of placenames. It means castle, or fortress.
@@zefft.f4010 Thanks, I knew it was a fairly common name, but not the meaning. Most of the photography that Jim Borg did was pictures of military personnel.
I always took BORG to be a variant of "Cyborg" or cyBernetic ORGanism.
courageous of you, using a red tshirt near that exposed warp core material :D
“All of this has happened before, and will happen again…” 😉
The Borg is a flat circle
You got it 😂
BSG 🙌
Maybe the Borg are why the Dark Zone is so bad 😂
Previously, on Star Trek Galactica.
Biologically speaking and culturally speaking, many iterations of the Borg makes absolute sense. Societies/species grow, rise in prominence, dominate, exhaust their known resources, succumb to internal and external forces by being too big to sustain and decay throughout all of history. Also this makes me think about Ron Moore's exploration of the never ending cycle between life and cybernetic life in Battlestar. Thanks for the thought-provoking video!
The Borg started in 2016 when I had both my hips replaced.
Resistance is futile.
Someone I know joked about this when he got donor-cornea surgery to stop him from going blind at that eye. "I only need that laser pinpointy-thingy and I'm on my way" :p.
[kicks you in the hip...(nothing happens) "HE ADAPTED!"]
@@lindinle you will be assimilated
@@Dutch3DMaster Honest question, do you know how much that surgery costs? I need it so just wondering.
In the 90's, my dad had a broken carpel bone that would not heel, and he got an EM field stimulator to wear on his arm. This takes the form of a saddle-shaped ring, and exposed wires leading to a separate pouch.
He said "I feel like I'm being assimilated by the Borg." and it was far more evocative then any common prosthesis.
Funny, he wore it to an art museum, and it jammed the talking guide machines, so people would walk up to the same painting he was looking at, then look confused as their narrator turned to static, then wandered off again.
A good way to explain all of this would be to make them extra galactic. Different Borg crews arriving in the milky way and assimilating species at different points in time. Like the tyrranids in 40k.
A fellow Trekkie I know said it best: 'I like to think there was a common machine species ancestor that led to two divergent lines of mechanical species;
The machine species that v'ger was born from encountering (just because the movie is so specific that they were purely mechanical and now extinct thanks to v'ger).
And the divergent line being the borg. Perhaps the progenitor being a rouge servitor race. After all guinan and Q names them as technological users merged with machines not ruled by them.
I like them being such an enigma'
You know Tyler I am aware that the writers of the Borg did not truly prepare for a Borg Queen but you can still see that there is room for her even in Best Of Both Worlds. There is a scene where Data is trying to access the Borg Collective through Locutus when he does gain access he says "The Borg group consciousness is divided into sub-commands necessary to carry out all functions. Defense - communication - navigation. They are all controlled by a root command implanted into each" Then Locutus is snapped awake and tries to break free. It is almost has if Data was about to say "A root command implanted into each Borg by". Now this is just fan theory because no Queen was in the works at this time and no movie to introduce a Queen either. But one could view this as Data getting to close to revealing a Queen and she is the one who stopped him from learning this truth. It could also be seen as her first noticing Data and taking an interest in him when she came across him on the Enterprise-E in First Contact. I mean from a writers point of view then no this is not planned but you can still see how it fits nicely into the narrative of a Queen "Being there the whole time" as Picard said to her in the movie.
I absolutely agree with this. Especially because up until the movie she probably wouldn't have felt the need to expose herself. Especially because the idea of using Picard was to have a spokesman from Earth itself to be the face of the assimilation of Earth..so she could accomplish her goals without showing or exposing herself. Definitely makes sense to me 💯
More of the writers should be more like you. Extremely knowledgeable of the lore. Sometimes I feel like its just the writing doing things because it will look good and not informed of the trek lore. Thanks for this
According to the older books, they're "voyger" from the first movie.
The idea of the Borg evolving in several separate places is a really interesting notion and is actually something that Dr Who has done with the Cybermen, the idea that they can kind of, manifest from human beings under the right circumstances. Fascinating concept that I want to see explored more in science fiction.
It's like once humans reach a certain point in their development, they can either embrace the synthetic or turn away from it. A kind of inevitable tipping point!
If you think about it, it makes sense; Only I suspect, which way they decide to go would depend on who is in charge, and or how many people are in charge. If a single person was in control, then it would be more likely that they would decide for everyone else, that the synthentic was best, while a committee would probably push back against it.
This is a bit of a dark theory... But I'd like to think that the Borg are actually the future of human civilization and somehow a number of them got sent back in time at some point in the far distant future (we see in First Contact that they have the capability to develop this technology). So basically, the Borg are us, what we will become one day. That would also explain why so many of them appear to look human. We know they aren't out there assimilating tons of human colonies so how could most of them that we see look like humans?
@@adriansmith3427 And it may work fine embracing the technology until a cyberterrorist use the network to spread a mindcontrol virus.
Star Trek First Contact is just the best! Also that intro has such beautiful music!
Wouldn’t be surprised if the borg just farmed the galaxy…they spread out assimilating any species or tech they like then retreat to consolidate the genes and tech they got waiting for new species and tech to grow in their absence before spreading again to harvest the new species and tech
Full on mass effect reaper?
your attention to detail and accuracy is amazing. Took me a few videos but you definitely are one of my top Star Trek sources moving forward
Thank you so much!
“The Traveler” i would like to know more about him and his people
I remember there being speculation that the Borg origins were originally an insectoid species, hence the hive-mind/drone/queen set up. Some people have said no to that because we haven't seen such a species amongst the Borg.
But there are various animal species on earth that, when a limb is damaged, simply remove that limb and grow a new one. So maybe it did begin with insectoids, but then they encountered humanoids, determined the humanoids were far more efficient and made for better drones, and eventually the insectoid drones were entirely discarded.
I also had a thought that the Borg queen is not a specific individual, but actually AI software that is loaded into a body as necessary. The reason the queens all look the same is because "she" is basically a gynoid with organic skin (said skin having being cloned and grown), and is entirely artificial.
Hi. Question, could nano technology from the first incarnation of the Borg (that may or may not have gone extinct) have kick started subsequent incarnations by assimilating a slightly more advanced starter species and improved the Borg each time until they become the most viable version that we see thanks to Q?
Fascinating! As a long-time Star Trek fan, I love hearing about these kinds of details which are left somewhat ambiguous in the shows. Well done and oratorically presented!
I would suggest that the idea of the Borg was stolen from Classic Doctor Who with their mainstay alien villian race, the Cybermen, which were invented about 25 years before they showed up on ST:TNG.
Most of sci fi, and sci- fantasy takes inspiration from one another.
As a Brit, I agree that the Cybermen were most likely the main source of inspiration for the Borg.
@@JoeCool90 That might have factored in, but it seemed like the idea of the Borg stemmed from the growing innovation of the Internet at the time, and following the idea of the Internet to a dystopian conclusion.
this is the new ultimate (and just starting out as being a) Trek Fan-RUclips channel. I'm still learning but i def respect TOS most, then TNG is my fav to watch so far
I actually like the idea that the Borg doesn't have one specific origin and instead is almost like a universal constant. Like a natural force that exists to both threaten and challenge those that exist within it.
Almost like they have no actual origin. They just exist and have always existed. Reminds me of the Reapers in Mass Effect (which I'm sure the people who made them were inspired by the Borg).
Considering the Borg have canonically at least once engaged in experimentations with time-travel; it is possible the multiple starting points might actually not be fully independent, but result of some sort of seeding via time-travel, all directly to indirectly tracing back to some singular origin.
I love the theory about the Borg coming and going in and out of existence. Because different civilizations would try biological technology and it would lead to the Borg. As if there is a technological singularity that won't let biological beings become machines. And the Borg is mother nature's fail safe. Great idea 👍
You are the best kind of dork man. I'm watching the whole library.
My theory is that the Borg were defeated many times, but not wiped out. Due to this, they learned how not to lose, assimilating more technology along the way. Additionally, this would explain their self-healing ship technology, as they cannot know for sure that they can overpower every adversary. Moreover, this would explain the transwarp conduits, where traveling in this stealthy manner would give them a distinct advantage.
Great effort tying all those contradictory origin stories together!
It's interesting to contemplate, as real-life civilizations rarely have one easy origin story either
Thanks Matt! Like I said, it's very likely that in a "true" history many of these origins could be ignored altogether, but I appreciate when people recognize my efforts to analyze them together as part of a thought exercise.
In the real world, the further you go back, the more contradictory information gets. So as I being inside the cannon Star Trek universe. The true origin of the Borg would be hard to pin down, one species account would conflict with another. So saying for certain when the Borg came into being would be hard to say.
Going off this idea, it's possible that each incarnation of the Borg started because the species 0 of each incarnation found technology of the previous one, and attempted to use it for their own ends, resulting in a new generation of Borg without any memory of the previous incarnation. This would account for the different Borg incarnations being unaware of each other and why they always start out in the delta quadrant.
Very interesting video! I agree that having a mystery around the origins of the Borg makes them a much more interesting antagonist. As much as I'd like to know more about them, I hope that whatever we do learn only raises more questions. I personally don't like what happened to the Borg when Voyager got its hands on them. Too much of a good thing ruined the mystery. The Borg were no longer terrifying.
On a related, but side note, I really do wish that future Trek incarnations would embrace Star Trek's inclination towards horror (particularly TOS and the first two seasons of TNG). It would be awesome if Strange New Worlds had some horror elements.
That would be very cool! Yep, ironically, having all the answers is definitely not as satisfying. The Borg being an intimidating, elusive force of nature in TNG worked much better. I could see Strange New Worlds potentially including more horror elements--I mean, think about when Pike saw his radiation-stricken fate with the time crystal!
Totally agree!!!!
Interesting thst the original borg were the bugs thst infiltrated starfleet command. Star trek opted not to go this route, but stargate did (goauld and tokra).
Always enjoy videos about the Borg.
the borg named hugh. after that episode they interduce the queen. thus making the borg a beehive was a master stroke
point taken but tbh, the queen for me made the borg something not borg.
They completely ruined the unique feature of the Borg when they introduced the queen. A disaster stroke.
@@Jezza_One precisely,
@@Jezza_One Part of me still feels a bit dirty agreeing with you but the pre borg-queen borg certainly felt more threatening.
I do love the whole borg queen concept though, but perhaps they should have kept her more a dumb collective mouthpiece rather than a singular leader.
wait i thought borg queens were just regional managers of a sort.
The Borg's true origin: Blake's Seven, Season 3 (a.k.a. Series C) Episode 10 "Ultraworld", 1980.
Good one. Except the Borg can't be defeated by limericks and puns. 😂 "There once was a lady from Venus
Who's body was shaped like a ...."
The most terrifying scifi enemy ever, (narrowing beating out Alien and John Carpenters thing, because ..... you general are alive for a much longer time after they get you)!
I agree. The Borg are the perfect villain.
When did you leave the profits captain?
It's the Zombie, Vampire and werewolf threat where when defeated, you become one of them...
Alien is the best killing machine ever.
@@stephanegrimard2687 Yes it is. And when it gets you it isn't a nice way to go. But it doesn't turn you into an Alien and send you after your family and friends afterwards lol.
Very informative, particularly liked that you narrated in the manner of The Borg.
Fascinating!
It would be interesting to see what would happen if the Borg came up against the Organians. Or the Thasians.
And what would happen if the Borg entered the Galactic Barrier? Would that mean the end of the galaxy as we know it?
That might be how they get knocked back down after getting too powerful and numerous.
@@JohnDlugosz - Good concept!
Hi, the Pleistocene image at 2:30 min is by the paleo artist Mauricio Antón. Caitlin Sedwick is the person who wrote the article 'What Killed the Woollly Mammoth?' from April 2008, which is where you probably found the image. Just mentioned this, because Mauricio Antón is a great artist, who deserves the credit.
Much respect! Great deep dive
Thank you Robert!
There is an excellent novel existing: Star Trek Destiny. It explains in detail how the Borg has been created. It is just brilliant.
The book plays in two timelines. It starts with the USS Columbia (which is the sister ship of Archer's NX-01) with the beautiful Captain Hernandez. And the other part is playing on the Enterprise E, after Voyager has returned home, and their Slipstream device has been built in to new ships.
Great Story! Very entertaining. Best star trek novel I've ever read. It's like first contact, being the best movie ;)
Here's how I see the Borg, either a experiment of some kind went awry or something that was expect you to be the one of the greatest scientific breakthroughs of all time, the latter seems more likely option to me though I don't have any Cannon sources to back any of this up, to me the episode where Commander chakotay is temporarily linked to a small group of former Borg was absolutely a terrifying episode to me, perhaps that's what the Borg intended originally link together and some sort of mutual cooperation and great medical advancement just came with the territory by default, but I have oftentimes wonder what became of that I believe it was called The cooperative and perhaps whatever species that the Borg originally came from thought it was to the mutual benefits of their entire species to become cybernetic, looking around today I see group think everywhere, now imagine that sort of group think where a certain faction got the upper hand over the other technologically and begin telling everybody how amazing it was and how we're all going to now be a part of the greater perfection of the hive mind, many particularly on their side of the aisle would be willing to do so voluntarily not knowing the after effects yet to rear they're ugly heads and perhaps the other side thinking you can do what you want to but we're going to remain as individuals and at first are allowed to perhaps, but as the years progress they are influenced to join and perhaps as even more years pass on still have not joined are basically forced to and the few stragglers that still remain are hunted down to either Extinction(total assimilation) or near Extinction I mean after all everyone should want to be perfect right? Shouldn't everyone should desire to be assimilated into a greater way of thinking, a hive mind if you will, so now what did they do there's nobody left in their civilization to make better or what they would consider perfect so they go out into the Galaxy seeing as they were already warp capable to begin with seeing as they are highly technologically advanced species and begin bringing more imperfect people's into their perfection with already having quote unquote bad experiences with people who didn't wish to join before, I don't think it's that big of leap to believe that they would think everybody would want to be perfect even if they don't know it yet and as they believe they are and that is a message and the warning in Star Trek (to us as humans) if we think our way is right all the time and the other side is evil and wrong all the time and if we ever do get to be this technologically advanced would we be so different, too often I hear one side call the other side an -ist's or an ism because they think it believe differently than we do, would we really that different? well I say we should be careful how strongly we believe our side is totally right and the other side is evil, whether that's (normally) politically or otherwise, we should be careful on how hard we believe something to be "perfect" and the other side "evil" or we too someday could someday find ourselves rooting for our demise whether it's like the borg or some other similar technologically advanced state, yes we may be what we think ourselves perfection at that time, but will also be slaves to our own beliefs and ways of thinking as we would become drones and mindless automatons, not me start thinking for yourselves people is all I got to say!
I love the Vger- Borg connection. Always thought that was a neat TOS -TNG connection.
It could be that The Borg in all their iterations are an emergent property of nanotechnology. As every race begins nanotechnology research, they become Borg.
*while not canon and dismissed in other posts, (repeatedly) i've always said the borg were the result of wesley crusher's experiments with building better nanites and their interaction with Data's positronic systems and eventual contacts with organic lifeforms and possible time travel/wormholes...thanks a lot Wesley*
@@scottmantooth8785 One more thing to love Wesley for. Thanks.
Nah, it's a product of AI+massive networking. Cylon, Replicators, Borg - all mechanized societies making drone collectives possible through networking. That analysis is just about the only thing the new BSG did well.
I do like the way your share your thoughts on the races you made the topic, I have always like the mystery of the Borg, BUT ALL HAVE A BEGINING.
I loved the Star Trek Destiny trilogy and the ideas in that which tell of the both the Borg origins and also the Borg's ultimate fate. Ties everything up so nicely, and makes it all come full circle. A shame you merely glanced over these amazing books in just a sentence or two.
Thoroughly enjoyed your speculations. Good fodder for the Trek writing pool.
STAR TREK THE MOTION PICTURE .
There's a moment when Spock was connected to the probe . And while connected Spock said . RESISTANCE IS FUTILE ! . . . . . ( CLUE ) as will early on the poor did a bunch of time traveling . This is where they seem to have popped up all over the place .
There’s also a theory that whatever Spock tried to mindmeld with in that movie made the borg to help it understand the universe
Are you fucking serious? Never heard this before, will have to rewatch. My dad hated that movie because it so resembled the "Nomad" episode in his opinion of the original series
Awesome content!! Thank you for you research! I'd love to see the Gorn next and also the Tholians. Thank you again for your awesome channel!
Thank you! The Gorn and the Tholians--especially the Tholians--would be fascinating to explore as part of my Alien Biology series.
My favorite Borg origins story is from the non canon star trek book trilogy called 'The Destiny novel series' I think it should be made canon
I love you gor adding chapters so i could skip you intro with great ease and accuracy. Will be leaving a like for it
This is a very good take.
We like static empires and species in Star Trek despite the fact that human empires and cultures are anything but static on earth IRL.
I always thought that the sphere builders looked a lot like the Borg Queen, and their origins were extra galactic. An advanced Probe that begins assimilation for reproduction.
Thst giant log with the metal sphere probe looked like the borg sphere too, but it seemed more interested in whales (ST4).
You're missing a key element in that the Borg used time travel in attempts to manipulate Earth history, particularly to prevent Cochrane's flight and first contact. Wonderful analysis altogether, but ya gotta take into consideration that their 'odd upstart history in different locations' may actually be because of the use of time travel. Are they trying to planet seed? Was that the purpose of 'the one'? Also - this was never answered - but who created the 'bigger on the inside' box as seen in the Star Trek Enterprise episode? Is this the borg attempt to create a TARDIS?
(There's canon as crossover in the IDG comics Doctor Who/Assimilate)
Given the age of the galaxy it is quite possible a civilization like the Borg could actually exist 😁
not so much, really. consider our sun is almost half as old as the universe. there is a very good chance that we are the first intelligent life to evolve in the entire milky way.
then consider we'd be able to detect the gravitational wake of ships going a significant percentage of the speed of light, or detect interstellar communications.
that last bit is why the borg could not function as a single collective in the real world. faster than light transmissions are not possible, as they violate causality. eventually the collective would get big enough that signals take thousands of years to go from one side of the collective to the other.
however, there's also a pretty good chance we become borg-like. a not insignificant percentage of the species are connected to each other by way of tech. it would only take a few technical developments and a bit of software doing something unexpected for our species to start on the path to assimilation.
@@rakninja This was a theory often coming up on some science channels. Personally I think we are the first or at least the first advanced enough to look out as far as we do. Communication over galactic distances could be done by entanglement, perhaps. We already have "cyborgs" in a way, look at visual or cochlear implants and even artificial limbs that are in contact with brain implants (research that is) Still I think we're alone
8:00 There was an interesting detail in First Contact I think a lot of people missed.
In Orwell's 1984 Party members are expected to modify their memories through a willful but subconscious act. We this this after the change in alliance of Oceania. Both Winston and Julia had just spent 2 weeks working overtime to modify the historical record to get rid of any evidence that the alliance had always been as it had been.
Then, after this long "correction" in their first meeting in 2 weeks Winston mentions this change and Julia denies such a change took place.
What if the Borg had something like that, only much more effective and efficient. The Borg consider them selves to be perfect, so any change in their structure would be a move away from that perfection. So if some new idea was to be tried, the Borg would need to modify their own memory to reflect that things had always been the way it was now.
In Best of Both Worlds Picard is abducted and assimilated, but his assimilation is different. He is not created as a drone, but as a leader. Someone to be a spokesperson for the Borg. As far as we can tell, this had never been done before. The Borg seemed to be trying something new, which seems to indicate to me that the Borg had no leader before this. The Queen Borg did not exist before Locutus.
I think, after Locutus left the Borg Collective, the Borg wanted to create a leader and so one drone was selected to become Queen. Once this was done, the memory of the entire collective was modified so they weould all remember that the Queen was always a part of the Borg.
Picard seems to have no memory of the Queen before he comes into her presence, then he gasps, and suddenly seems to "remember" the Queen. This was the moment Picard's memory was modified, so he would "remember" the queen even though he had never met her before.
How much can we really trust the Borg's history? Like Winston's story in 1984. Winston states that he believed it must be some time around 1984 because Winston remembers being a child in the 1950's when the Revolution took place.
There is no doubt that the Revolution took place in Winston's Childhood. But did Winston grow up in the 1950 or at some other time?
I have a very clear memory that I know is wrong in some respect. When I was in 5th grade we had to take some test. Our teacher explained that if we did well enough on the test she would show us a movie and we could have a fun day.
We achieved the desired score and I clearly remember watching the movie "Space Balls" in my 5th grade class. But I was in 5th grade in the 1981-82 school year. Space Balls was made in 1987.
I can't explain how I remember watching a movie 5 or 6 years before it was made. Mel Brooks is an amazing director, but I doubt he's good enough to reliance a movie years before it was made. Sure, they were able to watch part of the movie *IN* the movie, but even then they could only watch it to that point in the movie. They could not see any part of the film that had not yet been made.
ruclips.net/video/nRGCZh5A8T4/видео.html
Memory is not very reliable.
So Q actually did the federationa big favor by introducing the Enterprise to the Borg, in essence, giving the federationa a big heads up. Otherwise the Borg would have just showed up with no warning. Pretty awesome the way they make it all come together cross series.
Not really. "Q, Who" happened in 2365.
In 2353 the Hansens started a Federation sanctioned mission to search for the Borg and investigate them. We can assume that the federation had some knowledge about the Borg since they even provided a ship for the mission (USS Raven). The research ended in 2356 when the Borg assimilated the Hansens.
Enterprise episode "Regeneration" happened even before that (2153), again providing more details about the Borg for the Starfleet, including a potential assimilation treatment.
You can argue that "Q, Who" was a first real confrontation with the "real Borg" and I can give you that. But the Starfleet didn't learn much from the encounter - they already knew about the Borg ability to adapt (both offensively and defensively), the hull cutting beam, the assimilation, they even knew about the possible 24th century invasion (end of "Regeneration").
This means two things:
1) The Enterprise crew in "Q, Who" should have enough information about the Borg from the events described in "Dark Frontier" and "Regeneration" to be way less confused. At least the information should have been available in the database, especially since there was a possibility of an invasion.
2) Creating prequels has a high chance of fucking up the continuity.
@@YamianGodlike WOW. How true about the Hansen's. TNG was made prior to Voyager so the writers were definitely wanting Picard's meeting with the Borg to signify the first meeting. Q even stated that it was their nieveity in space exploration as to why they shouldn't be galavanting around as they are doing. Q's purpose to show Picard the Borg was to introduce him to an enemy he could not fathom. So it was intended to be the first meeting. I can see where the mistake was made with Seven's family being assimilated prior to Picard's initial contact. I just don't go that deep to remember all the dates. Incredible you caught that.
@@YamianGodlike I always just assumed the events of Regeneration were highly classified and that was that.
@@TheSHOP411 I caught it when the Hansen episode first aired back in 2000 (?), but just kind of accepted that it was a plot hole and had to deal with it as a fan. I'd say Regeneration creates more plot holes or paradoxes.
@@brettcooper3893 indeed it does.
I always thought the Pakleds were somehow connected to the Borg. Just their philosophy of making themselves stronger and better by assimilation. Maybe a distant cousin of the Borg original species.
I'll bet it will be revealed that Michael Burnham had a hand in their origin.
ugh, Diverse Female Space Jesus
@@no2party Muh feelz. REEEEE!!
I thought that's what control was. Her mother coming threw time then her definitely gives then the ability to go where ever they please in time.
Fantastic work man. Instant subscription for that content.
Thank you Tanner!
A couple thoughts regarding the Borg's origin and seeming disappearance and reemergence:
1. Perhaps several different Borg "species" have emerged in history and the current Borg are the amalgamation of all of them. One species experiments with cyborg augmentation and nanotechnology, begins incorporating the biological and technological distinctiveness of other species to their proto-collective, only to discover another older cybernetic species and integrate with them. This would result in several different origins thought history and a difficult time pinpointing the "true" origin of the Borg.
2. Perhaps the Borg choose to go into periods of dormancy so as to let new species arise and develop new technology that could be of novel use. I never gathered that the Borg were particularly creative, and rather just stole tech to add to themselves. If this is the case, they'd be best served playing the long game and letting the galaxy recover after subsequent campaigns of conquest and re-emerging thousands to millions of years later to assimilate the new technology developed since the last period of conquest.
Both of these explanations seem plausible to me as well, as an alternative to the theoretical "timeline" I presented in the video. Your first theory definitely seems like it could like up with statements from Guinan and the Borg Queen referencing how the Borg have "developed," so to speak, over thousands of centuries. That may be how their modern Collective formed: they started out as a type I civilization, then became Type II or II and a half in the last few hundred years. Your second theory could tie in with the so-called "farming theory," that the Borg really could annihilate Starfleet if given the opportunity and have been holding back so as to "farm" new technologies that could be added to the Collective at a future date.
^ Really good comment there.
Pardon the re-post, but in another comment above, I noted... "We might imagine that the known Star Trek timeline is "contaminated" with multiple instances where Borg time travelers from an alternate timeline suddenly appear, anywhere in the galaxy, and re-start or change the course of Borg history to their own perceived advantage. From the point of view of an outsider, a time-traveling species with trans-warp technology that lets them cross the galaxy in a day, might not even _HAVE_ an origin point as we think of it. Their timeline is a Moebius strip. Each temporal incursion was probably done by a "version" of the Borg with an inconsistent history."
Super jealous of your 4K resolution of not only yourself but the footage that you found, how dare you be so professional
The mind of Gene Roddenberry, the studios at Paramount pictures and CGI software. Why do you think the Borgs true origins are anything but
Actually you're right. The borg were originally intended as an invading enemy in star trek phase 2. Star trek phase 2 would have had Commodore or Admiral Kirk commanding instead of picard and the entire story arc for the 1st 3 seasons was laid out before filming ever started. They recycled the story arc and many of the scripts that were already written into the next generation. Another little nugget Wesley crusher is supposed to be the child of Kirk's best friend who dies early on in the original series after being elevated to godhood. And dr. crusher is supposed to be the wife of that character. You can see this clearly an encounter at far point which is the sequel to the original Star Trek move. It should be Kirk going to pick up his replacement for Decker and Iana who both die in the movie. This makes the freaking out over the assimilation of picard make a lot more sense with the dialog. Imagine Admiral Kirk, chief of starfleet operations, being the one who was assimilated. So much more terrifying than a captain no matter how accomplished
Any chance we could get some Borg vs Geth in the future?
I don't see why not! As I do more Mass Effect content I'm sure I'll uncover some excellent examples for comparison between the two franchises.
The Borg's true origins? Written on a script writers' napkin during breakfast, that's where!
After the writer read about them in a Perry Rhodan novel 🤣
The true origin of religion? The inability of parents to admit to their children that they Don't Know.
Must be strange people who use napkins at breakfast...
How do you know it was not a lunch napkin???
Near the end of season one finale of *Picard* Dahj created a communications array to open up a singularity to contact unknown Ai who were coming to help her and the rest of her kind, but after it was *dismantled* they didn't expand upon who they actually were (which will no doubt be elaborated on in future episodes!!), so could those who were coming to collect Dahj and co be some offshoot or variant of Borg ?
Commodore OH, also a member of the Zhat Vash, who are dedicated to wiping out all synthetic life, could it be that they have been aware of the Borg threat for so long, which is why they formed and saw any type of synthetic life as a threat vowing to destroy them at any cost?
Zhat Vash are an ancient and secret Romulan cabal of Tal Shiar operatives allegedly thousands upon thousands of years old, and it supposedly predated the Tal Shiar, so it's possible there is some connection with the Borg there.
It could have been a Borg Civil War
I've watched this one so many times it's definitely one of my favorites.
Thank you Jay!
"Some event could have happened and now there are two or more collectives."
In real live when a computer cluster breaks into separate parts by loosing their 'main orchestrator' or the link (heart beat) between nodes simultaneously, they think they are the 'only survivors' and continue to operate separately (leading to data corruption or more 'truths').
nice work , my head canon for a long time has been that the borg may have been "wiped out " many times , with only nano probes and data modules surviving to drift in space and then re infecting organics time and again
Modern men picturing themselves in the StarTrek universe: "My name is Captain Kirk/Piccard of the USS Enterprise"
Who modern men really are in the StarTrek universe; "YOU ARE GETTING ASSIMILATED!"
Much appreciated all the time and effort you have put it into this. I really enjoyed watching your video. I live in Scotland and I love all things trek. Thank you once again You have obviously done a lot of research. And spent a Lot of time on this Video just to let you know I have worked in the industry in the past I'm 57 years old now. And I'm still a big sc/fi fan. And of course live long and prosper to you. 🖖
"Sounds Swedish"
Like Bjorn Bjorg or Sonia Hennie?
@@AlanEmmons-qw6bg That is what Lilly when Capt. Picard told her then name of the drones that invaded the ship.
This is an epic interesting video. Thanks for sharing. Enjoyed it
Borg? Must be Swedish.
😂
I think it's plausible that any cybernetics technology which uses a brain-machine interface and has wireless communication functionality would be a "proto-Borg sub-species" - contact with the Borg would immediately result in those wireless connectings being taken over, and the implants using the brain-machine interface to take over the person as well. The Borg could have originated hundreds of thousands of years ago, been defeated, but remained functional *ENOUGH* - possibly only barely - to take over any time someone developed that same technology anywhere within their transmission (and/or detection) range. This could explain the repeated growth, collapse, and resurgence of the Borg, as well as their appearances typically being limited to the Delta quadrant - the region within range of the surviving Borg original(s).
Borg? Sound's if they may have had Swedish origins!
No, it's English, incorporating pieces from Greek, Latin, and French.
I see the Borg much as the Doctor Who Cybermen are represented, as one possible result of cybernetic technologies hence there can be numerous sources for the Borg and many variants of the Borg. The key seems to be the neural implants allowing the hive mind control. Given that cybernetics and even neural implants are technologies that are likely easier to achieve than FTL travel, I would've liked to have seen them encounter pre-warp Borg like societies and hence faced with the prime directive debate of whether or not such a potential future threat should be removed.
V-ger meets Daleks. Resistance is -EXTERMINATE!!!
All your videos are really well done. You put a lot of great detail into these. Love your channel. 🖖😉
Thank you so much!
Great video. Thanks for doing the research. Appreciated
Wonder why after the Doomsday Machine was defeated Starfleet never hauled it back for research? Would have tough but for a possible weapon of that magnitude and not wanting someone else to claim it would have been a priority I think no matter how many ships with tractor beams it took. Even if they couldn't move it, all that raw material not to mention its inner parts, technology it could provide Starfleet would have made a massive effort to cannibalize it. Heck, even build a dockyard around it to make sure its done right. After the Borg threat was there on Starfleet's doorstep, sure someone would have run some simulations of the Doomsday Machine vs Borg Cube and realized its potential in the fight.