I don't really think of the Borg being involved personally. As for the movie at large, I really enjoy it conceptually, but I do think it could've been edited down for a bit tighter story without losing the grandeur or mystique of the story. Having said that, I do still enjoy watching the movie. Stay well out there, and God be with you, friend. ✝️ :)
My favorite of all Star Trek movies. The only Star Trek film that feels like it's science fiction first, Star Trek second. The 70s style futurism is beautiful.
In the Star Trek novel series "Cold Equations" V'ger was actually an extra-dimensional entity created when the Voyager probe went into a different reality. I thought it was a better direction than the Borg, they get so overplayed these days.
Yeah, they do. I forget what it was, but their was a book that tried claiming the planet killer from "The Doomsday Machine" was built as a borg weapon, but not only is that a boring answer, there was no reason it was needs to be tied to them and it was supposed to be from outside the galaxy anyway
@@commanderproton7763 Exactly, I don't understand how they come to that conclusion, Spock even says they traced back its path and it came from outside the galaxy. Its right in the episode.
Well this theory that V'ger and Borg is really old in Star Trek history .And there was a book with the entire Star Trek history from the movies and the shows .Which showed that V'ger might have been the Borg Homeworld .And it was the Star Trek Continuum with all the history and dates in Star Trek .So you should find that now hard to find book ,since it would answer some more querions for you .
The Borg are partly organic in nature, V'Ger is machine, a "living" machine but a machine. V'ger's technology is clearly far more advanced than the Borg and it is much more powerful. When Spock explores V'Ger's interior he specifically states that "whole galaxies" are recorded. There is no evidence that the Borg are extra-galactic.
@@rattywoof5259 He doesm't. _DATA: According to these coordinates, we have travelled seven thousand light years. And are located near the system J two five_ _RIKER:Travel time to the nearest starbase_ _DATA: At maximum warp, in two years, seven months, three days, eighteen hours we would reach Starbase one eight five_ _PICARD: Guinan, your people have been in this part of the galaxy._ Seven thousand lightyears isnothing: M33 is the Triangulum Galaxy, which is 2.73 *million* lightyears . I think you are thinking of that episode _Where No One Has Gone Before_ where the Enterprise first encounters the Traveller and breaks the warp barrier
Not true, Seven of Nine clearly stated on several occasions that the Borg have extra galactic travel experience as well as trans dimensional experience.
@@rattywoof5259 You're mixing up two episodes. Episode 1x06 "Where No One Has Gone Before" is where the Enterprise first encounters the Traveller, breaks the warp barrier, and is taken to Galaxy M33, 2,700,000 light years away. Episode 2x16 "Q Who" is where Q transports the Enterprise near System J-25, at least 7,000 light years away from the nearest Federation outpost, and where they encounter the Borg for the first time.
What an amazingly intelligent and coherent discussion of this question! My personal feeling is that no, V'ger doesn't really resemble the Borg in almost any way, nor do the Borg have anything (stylistically) in common with V'ger. They just look like different technologies with different origins, and that's what I'm sticking with.
My feeling is that the machine planet V'ger found is the machine species the synths contact at the end of season 1 of _Picard._ It would explain their godlike power AND why they left as soon as the signal the synths were sending stopped.
The Borg might have been alot different and more primitive when Voyager came in contact with them. Remember it took a considerable amount of time for Voyager to come back so during that time the Borg would have made quite a few technological advancements making their technologies look different. A computer from 2022 looks alot different than one from 1977 so you could imagine how many phases the Borg could of gone through.
@@myrtistaylor5759 sorry for repeating myself, but this! Not enough people consider that the Borg and V'ger may not have created/been created by each other, but maybe they both have a common ancestor so to speak? Why does it have to be so binary?
@@machinebeard1639 wrong. They knew and they were already headed towards the alpha quadrant. All Q did was temporarily speed up the process to show picard their not prepared or properly equipped for what lies ahead. Contact with the Borg was inevitable and the colective already had some humans well before leaving the delta quadrant
My 'head canon' had always been that V'ger emerged across the galaxy out of a Kerr black hole hundreds of thousands of years in the past. That would have allowed it plenty of time to traverse the galaxy, collect data, and contemplate itself, and accounts for the apparent extreme age of the probe. I assumed that the machine planet had long since gone extinct by the time V6 got back to Earth.
I've always found it interesting that, after returning from his meld with V'Ger, Spock uses these exact words: "Any show of _resistance would be futile_ , Captain."
That was a bit before the mind meld. That was when they were first pulled into V'ger and decker suggested shooting the tractor beam emitter and spock stated "any show of resistance would be futile"
The Vger - Borg connection is stated in William Shatner's Star Trek novel, "The Return" that's immediate sequel to Generations movie. It Has a Borg, Romulan alliance. They ressurect Kirk from his tomb after stopping Sung. At one point Spok is impersonating a Romulan, when the Borg recognise him as part of the collective. They aren't hostile because they see him as Borg. Because he mind melded with Vger. So so if Spok is a Borg. Then Vger did meet the Borg.
For me the debate ends with the small universe problem. It's just not fun if all AI is related somehow to the Borg. But that doesn't mean the question should have been asked. I love debating if the Borg is related to Control or to the Reaper-like, because it is a tool to investigate what makes those different, more than what makes them alike.
That's a great point. I think the only connection the Borg should have with V'Ger is that they would probably either envy it, or consider it to be almost deific. They would have assimilated knowledge of it at Wolf 359 (maybe even earlier), and learned of a machine that united with two organic life forms to complete its purpose. It possibly then achieved perfection, and ascend ... somewhere. How could the Borg not sit up and take notice of that!? Come to think of it, maybe that's part of the reason why they're so interested in the Federation and Earth. They could want to learn everything they can about it to see how this came to pass.
@@irregularassassin6380 I believe there was a book about an ascended V'ger in the far future. Might be related to that God particle the Borg are interested in.
Since we had Picard S01 come out, I really want the machine civilization that created Vger to have been the same that created the beacon that was driving the Zhat Vash insane etc. To me that makes a LOT more sense, especially regarding Vger's reaction to biological crew members. The Borg would understand what those are right off the bat. Also, what purpose would the Borg have in upgrading a space probe and letting it loose? This doesn't help them assimilate a damn thing.
Actually the information it gathered definitely would help them, but they wouldn't have any use for a primitive probe other than the information it carried of species that built it. They wouldn't have any interest in upgrading the probe itself and sending it on its way though.
YES! Thank you! This is exactly what I was expecting them to reveal at the end of ST:Picard. In a show with as many call backs as ST:P, I was 100% certain that this was where they were going with that. There's only ever been one fully synthetic civilization mentioned in Star Trek, and that was the creators of V'Ger. Seemed like a huge missed opportunity.
@@charlesajones77 That's not wholly true, but V'Ger's uplifters were probably the most established. There are two other wholly mechanical "civilizations" (that I can think of). Those being the nanobots Wesley Crusher accidentally uplifted, and the Exocomps. The latter should count because in Lower Decks an Exocomp joined Starfleet and referenced having a father. This likely mans that they are multiplying, and could have a small civilization somewhere. Granted, I think your point still stands. If they had revealed that, it would have gone a long way to saving that season in my eyes.
@@irregularassassin6380 Opening the Pandoras box of both species knowing about humans, and raising the question of why they would want to uplift a human probe?
William Shatner explored this idea in his book "Star Trek: The Return." Kind of an underrated book. It picked up after "Star Trek: Generations," and featured Kirk being resurrected by the Borg.
It was Cybertron. The Quintessons were the ones that created V'Ger. It's canon now. V'Ger's call was clearly "Bah-weep-grah-na-weep ninny-bog." If it was connected to anything within the Trek universe, it had to be from the weird metal tentacle aliens from the end of Picard season 1. That actually helps both shows, I think.
I don't like the idea that humanity created the Borg in any sense, but I'd be fine with V'ger having contacted them at some point. Rumors about the Alpha quadrant are already somewhat present in other quadrants, as demonstrated in Voyager and DS9, even if part of that knowledge comes from the Founders, they seem to know an awful lot more about us than we do about them. I think my favorite version of this theory is that the Borg modified V'ger and sent it back home, possibly causing it to evolve as it went until it became what we see in the film
I feel more like V'ger is actually the genesis of the Borg, and the first birth of the concept of merging machine with man. I feel like the inhabitants of the machine world are wholly separate from the Borg, and instead simply contributed to its existence. I might be wrong, I am not exactly up to date with Star Trek lore and what is canon, but that's how I always thought of it.
It would be poetic for the machine world that encountered V’ger to actually have come across a species that were both scientifically curious, but dying out from a biological plague of some kind, and the machine world entities discovered this species and decided to “rescue” them… saving them from their fate, but creating the Borg in the process.
In Voyager when charity and seven of 9 was inside discovered the mars mission they also discovered material simular to organic metal that could have been from the machine world.
"Note, Vger said, "machine planet" not "cybernetic planet"." On Picard, aren't the Higher Synthetics supposedly *very* ancient synthetic beings? As far as the Borg, isn't the theory that they started out all machine, but then Decker joined with V'Ger and then the Borg possibly came from that? (So, not so ancient, regardless of whether there is a distinction between machines with artificial intelligence versus cybernetic beings -- though this may be a distinction without a difference.)
@@mmortal03 cybernetic requires both synthetic and organic components. The border are called such because they are cyborgs. Synthetics are do not posess biological components.
The idea from the Shatnerverse books was that V'ger was but one kind of "Borg". The proto-Borg/proto-V'ger race experimented with the ways best to explore the universe and ultimately expand. They then split into factions. Vger was one such 'faction', the Borg became another. I imagine there were others. Just don't remember if the book mentioned if there were others. This makes sense in a way. They didn't put their eggs in one basket to accomplish their goals, and diversified. But those paths seemed to have changed greatly as time passed. Since both factions we know of seem to have some fatal flaws. Vger getting sidetracked with Earth via Voyager, and the Borg becoming a hostile killing species. But then again, that may have actually been acceptable to the proto-Borg. Since they were exploring different ways to expand. I find this element of the Shaterverse books fantastic and a really high quality sci-fi story.
I've never really understood the desire to connect the Borg with V'Ger. As viewers, I think we're meant to connect with V'Ger as something intrinsically tied to humanity, yet vast, incomprehensible, and mysterious. It's supposed to fill us with awe, and over-explaining it kills that. And as for the Borg, I feel like their origin is sufficiently baked in to their very premise: At some point in the past (I know there are beta canon specifics), a group of people who used cybernetic enhancements eventually networked and created a collective consciousness, and the rest is history. There's nothing to connect these other than the fact that both have some AI components, as you stated n the video. Side note: I just recently discovered your channel, and I'm tearing thorugh your back catalogue. Really interesting explorations of the potential science, especially biology, behind Trek.
It was a main plot point of the star trek legacy video game. one of the best str trek games around and published by paramount so lost of ppl think cannon
Borg created V'ger: The borg don't take in strays, hand out freebie tech then let the decked out entity go on its merry way. They integrate. Devour. Assimilate. V'ger created the Borg: V'ger's mission was to amass knowledge for the sake of amassing knowledge. The Borg sought perfection, to which amassing knowledge was only the means to an end. V'ger does not utilize the information it gathers. Therefore V'ger would not purposefully create the Borg. If the Borg got a knowledge boost from V'ger, they must have actively gathered that data from V'ger, meaning they would have already been on their mission toward amassing knowledge to attain perfection, so V'ger, again, would not be their originator in any way, shape or form. This connection is such a damn annoyance to see dredged up time and time again when it takes literally no effort to dismiss...
That doesn't preclude the possibility that V'ger created the Borg and that they originally had the same mission, but that the Borg's mission was changed or corrupted later on, possibly after V'ger lost contact with them.
@@Mabus16 It does, because V'ger does not formulate the idea to merge with the carbon life forms before such a merge is being suggested, up until then it considers them to be an infestation preventing it from communicating with its creator. Therefore it would have not made any sense for this entity to jump to the solution to merge machine with organics beforehand.
@@dominic.h.3363 Again, how do you know that this didn't occur after whatever entity V'ger created lost contact with V'ger? You're assuming that just because one was created by the other that they couldn't have diverged after being separated.
@@Mabus16 Because superintelligent machines and/or hive minds don't tend to make shit up as they go... and you assigning an attribute to an entity it does not display in canon is just a lazy method to make a cube fit into a circle shaped hole. Almost as lazy as time travel to shape the chain of causality to your liking...
I'm glad you touched on "small universe" syndrome. It's a cop out if V'ger and the Borg are connected, you can have more than 1 robot race just like alien or humans. This is my issue with Star Wars right now, Filoni has to stick his OC in everything and it makes it feel small and constrained.
The Borg V'ger connection, although flawed as you stated, is one of my favorites. Maybe V'ger didn't create the Borg (or was created by them) but I do like the idea of maybe they both had a sort of common ancestor? Maybe that machine species was content to just sit at home until V'ger introduced them to the concept of exploration. I will say that V'ger's method "Absorbing" it's specimens does remind me of the Borg directive to assimilate. I'd also be happy with a completely unconnected origin for the Borg.
Come on PEOPLE, the BORG originated in the DELTA quadrant. Voyager was launched FROM Earth, with conventional rockets. Even traveling at it's fastest speed, it would have taken CENTURIES to thousands of years at LIGHT Speed. No way could it have been launched, reached the Delta Quadrant, BEEN assimilated by the BORG and sent back towards Earth in the couple of hundred years between launch and Star Trek the Motion Picture. time frame.
@@brennonbrunet6330 Meh, Voyager didn't wanter into a wormhole, and it wasn't sentinet enogh at that point to even KNOW what a wormhole was, so it could not create the Borg that would have known about wormholes. No, you can't retcon this into the Star Trek Universe.
@@QuantumRift why does an object need to be aware of a wormhole in order to fall into it? The both could have emerged naturally as a byproduct of V'ger iterating on it's own form. Sentience is not needed for either of these things to have happened. Also, I never said that it should be retconned, but rather that I like the admittedly flawed premise.
I expected when you mentioned Transformers that would be a segue into Transformers history with the Voyager space program. In Transformers lore, the Golden Disks aboard the Voyager probes play a pivotal role in the evolution of both Cybertron and Earth.
Very poor idea to have ever leaked out. Had the Borg been the creators of V'Ger, imagine them several hundred years later - how much further they'd be. The world described in TMP is a machine world - not a cyborg world.
The problem with the Borg is their insatiable desire to multiply through assimilation. As Seven said in the "Friendship One" episode of ST:Voyager, "if the Borg had encountered any Terrestrial technology (prior to Q snapping his fingers at Picard in ST:NG), then the Borg would have taken this calling card as an invitation to assimilate Earth centuries sooner than their first attempt."
doesn't mean that the introduction of assimilating organic matter couldn't have come later. Maybe the machine world became really curious about exploration after meeting V'ger and that's when they started integrating organic matter into their structure? Maybe the best way for the machines to understand these organic makers that their probe friend kept going on about was to assimilate them? Last but not least, pretty sure there is an explicit reference in Voyager about the Borg collective nearly collapsing in the distant past. Technological progress doesn't have to be a linear function.
"V'Ger wishes to join with the creator" later takes on a more literal meaning closer to Borg assimilation, although it manifested itself as a lightshow in TMP.
@@BigC073 If you watch Season 1 of TNG, there is an indication that the Borg are already around, Remember they had dropped several throw away lines that Starbases and outposts along the neutral zone were disappearing, which was why the Enterprise was out that way, same with the Romulans, and both sides thought the other was doing it. In the episode the Neutral Zone, Wolf even comments about the outpost looked as though "a great force had come and scooped the outpost off the planet." and wondered how the Romulans pulled it off. The Borg were already in the area, just not ready to go after Earth. Q snapping his fingers if anything, allowed humanity to become aware of a threat in such a way, that the borg wouldn't conclude they needed to make an immediately move on Earth.
TMP is my favorite ST film. The movie has aged like fine wine. It’s pure science fiction. Isaac Asimov was a consultant. It’s a really wonderful story about getting where you need to be. Kirk needs the Enterprise; Spock needs “Kirk,” aka, humanity; V’Ger needs to evolve; Decker needs Ilia. The strength of the characters carries the film. ST now relies on ‘splosions. This movie, as well as Insurrection, at least attempted to be truer to their respective shows. As a fan, i can tell you that Bob Wise’s Director’s Edition on DVD is the best version to watch, due to the completed effects and scene restorations - notably Spock’s “I weep for V’Ger” monologue. Fun fact: Leonard Nimoy was the last to agree to join the film, so they brought him back to the Enterprise last in a grand entrance. 🖖
Thing is while we don't know what race and exactly when it happened we DO know the origins of the borg. Both Voyager and First Contact gives us hints, they were a race of organic beings like Humanity who began to improve themselves with technology until they became what know as the Borg. While with V'ger trying to explain the mystery of the Machine Civilization that rebuilt the Voyager space probe would completely ruin the atmosphere that movie had going. Not all things need an explanation, and shoe horning two completely incompatible things that only share a minor theme isn't a great idea in my opinion.
It would be fascinating if, in some future series, they mentioned the wide path of assimilation/destruction left behind by V’ger. There must be an empty section or sections of the galaxy, depending on the route it took.
I actually saw the motion picture in the theatre in 1979, the overwhelming comments from my social circle at the time were; 1. Too much time spent showing the ship, and 2) not enough battle scenes. This was you best work so far. In my opinion. Good job Tyler.
I'm starting to crave a mega video that covers the fleshing out of past vids and the in betweens that connect the subjects... 🤔🤩 And you totally missed a Mycelium op.😂😂 I always enjoy your videos but feel a bit of an aaawww it's over? Which, I guess, is a good thing.😁 🖖🏻🌟
The Vger - Borg connection is stated in William Shatner's Star Trek novel, "The Return" that's immediate sequel to Generations movie. It Has a Borg, Romulan alliance. They ressurect Kirk from his tomb after stopping Sung. At one point Spok is impersonating a Romulan, when the Borg recognise him as part of the collective. They aren't hostile because they see him as Borg. Because he mind melded with Vger. So so if Spok is a Borg. Then Vger did meet the Borg.
I had been thinking there might have been a connection between the super synths from Picard but I think the machine planet was just one of those Rodenberries that was never meant to be more than just the story at hand.
Small Universe Syndrome. That about says it all. I think V'Ger and the Borg are entirely separate and hope to never find out more about the Machine Planet
Right? I'm baffled so many fans just cant accept they there can be more than one machine species in this massive universe, I don't get the obsession's people have trying to connect them. Plus like you said the mystery is half the fun.
Considering just how powerful V'Ger was, it's more likely that the end of Star Trek: The Motion Picture was the birth of the Q Still too small a universe.
Either would explain why he focuses on humans rather than Ferengi or Vulcans, say. IF they are the result of Decker and V'Ger fusing, it explains why Q is fascinated with Picard and the Enterprise
V'ger is Nomad 2.0 Expect it's older... but BIGGER! No, really. The "Changeling" plot is undoubtedly the basis for TMP, from the human probe encountering alien technology, transforming into completely unique entity, and having the power to destroy whole planets. They both struggle to understand how a physically (possibly mentally) inferior organic species could be their creators... Is this patronizing? Like this is on some commentary option of an mid 2000s box set of Star Trek I-VI, right?? All I'm trying to say is that nobody talks about Nomad being Borg... why do they talks about V'ger being Borg? Because all the Star Trek canon is linked? What are you... a Star Wars fan?
Ooh I was excited for this one! I really enjoy The Motion Picture conceptually, and I think V'ger is very interesting. Plus, I think it's awesome that you used a PBS Spacetime clip in here and so much real world black hole science! Thank you for a very cool video! Stay well out there everybody, and God be with you, friends! ✝️ :)
@@Numba003 "The only god" Oh, so money. "israel, bible, jesus" I thought you were being serious. I didn't realise you were meaning plagiarised characters.
@@shanecarson2337 I imagine there are very many people out there that value many things more highly than their money. As for "plagiarised characters," could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by that?
@@Numba003 Plagiarism is the stealing of other things and claiming it for oneself/as one's own. The story of virgin birth and miracles and this, that and the other is WAY older than christianity and abrahamism. There is nothing original nor unique in abrahamism.
I’ve always believed that V’Ger created the Borg. When Decker and the Ilia probe merged it caused and an amazing blast of energy that shot off into the galaxy. This was the birth of a new species. Man and machine as one. But isn’t it the nature of every life form to survive and evolve in order to survive? I could go on but that’s the backbone of my theory and I love to see you do a video on that.
Of all the grand ideas, great stories, compelling characters, and amazing effects of the entire Star Trek canon, there's only one thing that really matters in the long run... ...Remember where we parked.
Saw this at Taunton (UK) cinema what I was 12, was totally blown away by the story and effects. The Borg are a totally different kettle of fish, the "Machines" actually had some empathy and purpose towards the Creator.
I don't think the Borg and V'ger are connected or that thing in Picard. (That was just weird altogether.) Like a lot of things and/or intelligence that are encountered in Trek, I think that it's best left as a mystery. That's what I love about the original and TNG. Make it a one-time encounter and move on to the next.
If anything, the Borg would not have created V’Ger but the theory that the Borg were a product of V’Ger’s merge with Decker would make more sense, timelines aside.
Also theories that the N.O.M.A.D probe from TOS also came into contact with a damaged sattelite/probe from a borg planet. The reason V'Ger is more 'powerful' than the Borg is because it continued to Evolve and Grow as it assimilated knowledge across the universe. V'ger learned/adapted and evolved in a faster and more efficient way than the borg themselves.
I always assumed N.O.M.A.D. and V'Ger had related origins. Although, if they don't, it's a fascinating example of convergent evolution in synthetic lifeforms. If everything keeps evolving into crabs, maybe all space probes evolve into super-powerful information-hungry death-bots?
It would be neat if in the “sphere data” we could see an encounter that it tried to communicate other space ships with out success. But leave it open enough to still be a mystery.
Great video Tyler you raised a few interesting points and theories in it and the part about the black holes was also interesting. There have been a few theories in fact that certain black holes may act more like wormholes and be gateways to other parts of the galaxy or even other galaxies. so yeah another enjoyable video. Oh just like to add you have of course heard of the age old question what is the fastest root between two points? Well here on earth it's believed to be a straight line as the crow flies. But in space it may be different some scientists theorise that the fastest root between to points in space is to try and fold space somehow so both points appear in the same point at the same time. Yeah I know it sounds like I got that from the movie Event Horizon where Sam Neill's character invented a singularity drive which did exactly that folded space. But there are some scientists who theorise certain black holes can do this also yeah I know the video was to do with the Borg and V-ger but the black hole part was quite interesting. Anyway really enjoyed the video.
I remember STTMP as a very suspenseful, atmospheric deep film. It's length amplifying it's heightened sense of awe. When I was younger I found it the most difficult to watch out of the series, but as I got older I began appreciating it more and more. It didn't help that for years it was relegated to late-nite programming. Tv guide says it starts at midnight, ends at sunrise. Lol.
side note. Because of conflicting lore. Borg where either very old or not so old ( on what series you take) in voyager they are only 1000 years old, while Q says they are 10k. Some suggested like in picard. The borg have gone away and resurvaced several times. If you take enterprise series , how borg crashed in antartica still could assimilate people. this could be a real options. And maybe their earlier....forms they where in a different part of the galaxy. And a counter: You say the borg. Might find v'ger less interesting. But i would counter that. They might have seen the message on voyager and think...how the hell did a probe that you travel this far. I think that would peak the intrest of the borg. I would agree that yeah, the probe by itself was a useless for the borg. Like Seven and her parents where a small 3 persons ship. But the fact that they where near a cube and not where they where supposed to be , made them a target. personally i would not like to know where v'ger got its upgrades. Somethings are more fun if you do not know them.
I'll start off by saying "I hate temporal mechanics" 1999 - Voyager 6 is launched travels and falls into either a black hole / worm hole that spits it out in the distant past and in what would now be called the Delta Quadrant is found by a mostly peaceful living AI race and augmented to fulfill it's core programing "lean all that is learnable, and return that data to its creator" 2063 - The Borg Collective from 2373 travels back to stop First Contact, but ultimately fails due to the efforts of the Enterprise - E crew. March 1, 2153 - (ENT, Episode 2x23) a Borg ship found crashed in the Arctic with 2 drones in it, they assimilate a few people, finish the "phone call" to the "Proto-Borg" in the Delta Quadrant with the coordinates of Earth, and it is said even if the message got to it's destination it would take about 200 years (with the known understanding of warp at the time) for who ever to show up on Earth's doorstep, but that doesn't account for the likes of V'Ger who was most likely about 80 years closer to earth doing its own thing. Star Fleet Intelligence aka Section 31 takes control of the left overs Intervening years: V'Ger may or may not have encountered a probe looking for whales and was unable to catalog it damaging itself and the whale probe at the same time.... **January 4, 2233: Nero and The Narada emerges out of a lightning storm in space and destroys the U.S.S. Kelvin, not before it gets detailed scans and it's "black box recorder" is turned over to Star Fleet Intelligence (again Section 31) and they realize that the Narada has similar tech as what became Control and they sped up construction and outfitting of the Enterprise with prototype tech that had given another 200 years they could have scaled down. ** 2257 - Section 31's Threat Analyses Program "Control" is based off a fragment of A.I. Tech gleaned from the Borg drones from the Artic event in 2153, and we see that it is still at its core assimilating people but without a connection to the greater Borg Collective Hive mind they where running under their own directives, and had they joined with the Sphere data they could have taken over the entire galaxy. 2270s TMP: V'Ger returns to the Alpha/Beta Quadrants, upon reaching scanning distance of Earth only finds a biological infestation and in the possible millennia it has been scanning has become more than just a prob, or even more then what the proto-borg could have imagined. 2293 Generations Enterprise B: the SS Lakul and the SS Robert Fox, caught in a strange energy ribbon. Aka The Nexus, the SS Lakul and the SS Robert Fox have refugees from the El-Aurian home world feeling a borg attack. we don't have a fixed point of where the El-Aurian home world is, but is assumed to be in the far reaches of the Beta Quadrant near the boarder of the Delta Quadrant. (fun fact, the Q played by John de Lancie in one continuity The Nexus started out as a school prank or science project by Q and he never did know what happened to it or where it got off too) (something I'm going to be very adamant about here is that officially licensed works are canon, just not always in the same temporal continuity, but for the sake of head canon and fun, let's not get bogged down by that) [ I can theorize and techno babble about this all day, but I already know I'm going to be met with prissy fans who can't or won't just take it as fiction and it doesn't really matter] Q,Who - 2365: Q sends The Enterprise D into the path of a Borg Cube and the rest is as they say history.
@@idgamingfederation202 @IdGamingFederation My God. I am not a prissy fan. Just said something that I noticed. /theory crafting. And just said I remember in the show q and vaudwar said different things about the age of the borg. No need to become mad. And never said whale probe met v ger. I said whale probe in the book from the movie ( if memory serves me right) met a cube shaped vessel with mites. Was not saying you where wrong or anything. Was more like... What about this? I was not trying to proof anything. Just like... Hmmmm you say there is a plot hole. Let's see if I can think of a way to help fill that plot hole. But calling a subscriber prissy, and going off in this. Look I know facts better rant, just caused you a subscriber... Loves you videos. And never ment disrespect when reacting. But do not need to be treated like this.
@@RandomTrek84 I mean why are we actively trying to the make the Startrek Universe smaller? Why cant there just be multiple machine races in this massive fictional universe? Not everything needs to be tied together.
Wasn't this already covered in one of "Shatners" books? Either The Return or The Ashes of Eden!? Spock get captured by The Borg and as they start to assimilate him they say they have detected Borg presence already in him from his mind-meld with V'Ger.
DUDE!!!!! TWO videos in and I LOVE your channel. Star Trek TMP is coming to my local theater here in May 2022 for a rescreening and I'm going to cosplay that up with a Capt. Kirk shirt from TMP. Awesome!!! Now, the movie, while when I was a child, I LOVED it..... but that was all the Star Trek movies I ever had up to that point. So, aside from TOS airing in reruns, books maybe and some comics, perhaps, TMP was it and I loved it...... went to the theater to see it with my Dad and then at home on cable EVERY chance I got. Now, in my adult "life." MMMmmm I can see how people would say that the movie is slow and a bore. I get it. But, Trekkies like you and I KNOW and UNDERSTAND the importance of it. So, thumbs up to the movie.... now, the whole Borg and V'ger thing.... I get it and I think that the Borg were, in MY opinion, in a strong, evolved state when V'ger came along. However, perhaps not to the "assimilation aggressiveness" that they are in Star Trek Canon now. I think, coupled with V'ger and perhaps Tonru (See Star Trek TOS "The Changeling") the Borg started their aggressiveness. I have also seen how the device in Star Trek TOS "The Doomsday Machine" was also a Borg derivative and invention to explore but turned into a weapon. How? Not sure yet in my exploration of Star Trek. I'd LOVE to see how someone can tie the Borg with V'ger AND The Doomsday Machine with a timeline that all makes sense...... THAT would be worth a watch or read. Live Long and Prosper, sir.
My math describes the slope of the singularity of a black hole to be a spike instead of a curve, therefore the slope goes to infinity, which conceptually allows it to connect to another spike, which could be another black hole or the corresponding white hole.
I believe the Canon information which Captain Decker had stated is only plausible denialability. Voyager 1 and 2 were both built and launched for it's official purpose by taking advantage of the once per 175 year alignment. However, Decker is partially correct since it's possible that NASA had detected a wormhole near Saturn and decided to keep it to themselves and built and launched Voyager 3 to 6 in secret to study the wormhole and after Voyager 6 entered the wormhole, NASA not only lost contact with the probes but the wormhole also disappeared too.
Trying to connect V'Ger to the Borg shows an extreme lack of imagination. Their similarities are very superficial. The ways they are different really stand out. There are a lot of things in Trek that make a lot of sense to connect, this is not one of them.
100% agree and honestly I wouldn't even say there's any similarities, V'ger is a living machine, the Borg are Cyborgs; their goals are completely different and incompatible. Not to mention First Contact and Voyager has given us more than enough information to guess at the borg's true origin thanks to dialogue from the Borg Queen and the Vaudwar.
I rather like the idea of V-Ger, being the creator of the BORG, and that they just diverge from their original direction and directives, as-well-as, this also all happens in a distant past, explaining how they preexisting the Federation, have been developing for.."thousands of centuries"..as Guinan, puts it. Which would have them not assimilating technology and biology, until centuries passed between them breaking from V-Ger's control, and becoming what we are familiar with today. Still, as so many are, I wish Gean had a chance to fully unveil the BORG origin before passing on. Even if not in film, fully explained them to other producers and writers, so particularly clever and/or clear paths could be "set in stone".regarding this complex subject.
My headcanon is that Shockwave found it and did his mad scientist thing. Or potentially even Unicron using V'ger as a herald and looking for Primus/Cybertron. So this tracks.
I like the idea of maybe having Vger come up every now and then just in passing ,maybe on a screen ,or as a prompt while in a discussion, might be interesting but I think it would be weird to have like episodes of that being the main focus.
The in universe explanation for Voyager 6 is that it was indeed launched as a classified NASA mission, but by the 23rd century it had been declassified and was common knowledge.
My own head canon is that V'Ger began as Shatner's novels described, encountering a sub-group of the Borg, or perhaps a pre-Borg civilization that ended up joining the Borg and helping them become who they are by the 24th century. Then, it left the galaxy, surviving passage through the galactic barrier using a summation of technologies it accumulated to that point. Then, it continued assimilating technologies and knowledge in intergalactic space, picking up various super-warp technologies to go to distant galaxies and encountering the evil Kardashev Type 3+ super-AIs featured in Picard season 1 and implied by Control in Disco season 2. Then, at one point, through a bit of soul-searching, it decides to head home. Side note: my fan theory about the galactic barrier is that it was created to keep the super-AIs out, possibly by Iconians, Sargon's people, or some other ancient Kardashev Type 2+ civilization.
I have had the casual theory that the Borg was an extension of V'Ger for a long time. Either one in the same or the evolution of V'Ger. I even wrote Robert Meyer Burnett asking about it like 6 years ago and he referred me to the Shatner novel mentioned in this video. However after hearing all of this information I am inclined to think they would probably not be related. I thought your video was great.
I think NOMAD when launched by Jackson Roykirk in 2002 caught up with the 6th Voyager, which was a blackops probe that was secretly launched in the 90s to make contact ships spotted flying through our system since the 1950s over Pennsylvania.... Anyhow NOMAD, with better propulsion in 2002, took Vger in tow and merged with it following a ort cloud storm. Star Trek TMP, where NOMAD has been before
What about Tan Ru? I feel that the later voyager probes were intended to be purely interstellar or at least Kuiper belt probes, with advances in propulsion leading to high speeds. At any rate there’s no way any of these probes were FTL and the ‘black hole’ that was assumed to have been the demise of Voyager 6 could have been any number of unknown spacial anomalies including a trans warp conduit or an unstable natural wormhole. It’s weird all these prewarp and early warp ships making it across the Galaxy or even outside. The second TOS pilot even has the enterprise doing something that a presumed warp 1 21st century ship did, crossing the galactic barrier.
I recently watched Star Trek I with my wife and despite the (partly valid) criticism, it is a movie worth watching ane we both liked it. The pacing is obviously completely different than that of more modern movies or even movies from 20 years ago, however it makes sense.
Even at the time the pacing was considered slow, but the movie was also considered an incredible technical and financial success. That's despite it being massively over-budget and running wildly off-schedule. It's kind of a filmmaking marvel.
My theory is the Voyager 6 probe found it's way to Cybertron, homeworld of the Transformers, and also traveling back in time, long before the war between the Autobots and Decepticons.
I think V'Ger was made by the same machine intelligence that the synths were trying to contact in the first season of Picard. V'Ger's "ship" had power and technology way beyond anything the Borg has. If the Borg had that kind of power, resistance would truly be futile.
So, you're saying that Vyger is like Galactis and the Borg are like The Silver Surfer? I don't think so. Vyger clearly transcended this universe when it melded with Decker. Completely different order of existence.
My interpretation is a little different. We created Voyager 6. It fell through a wormhole and travelled not just across space but backwards in time to a planet of purely machine beings. They sent it back and it became such a being. When it merged with Decker the new hybrid repaid the debt to its machine planet benefactors. It told them that machine +organic life was the way to perfection. So the Machine planet denizens created the Borg as a literal translation of that message which was sent backwards in time and across the universe as before. The experiment began in our galaxy in the Delta quadrant so the Machine planet is still there as a separate civilisation. Vger was a misinterpreted ideal than manifested as the Borg.
I like the idea that V'ger found the borg and enslaved them for a while. During this period, V'ger instructed the borg to absorb all knowledge, which slowly corrupted into the borg's philosophy that they must invade and assimilate. Now v'ger abandoned the borg failing to capture them. For centuries to come, the borg went to war with V'ger. Both tried to win, but it turned into a stalemate. The borg then continued their new agendas and V'ger set out to seek its creator. Btw, loved the video and explanations!
I think that V'ger came across the machine intelligence indicated from the sphere, later turned into Zora, that Discovery found and Control was trying to get a hold of. It makes far more sense than the Borg and does fit cannon explanations as they never said where that planet was but it was a long way off if I remember correctly.
You know what I wish we could get a Star Treck episode of? I know some might call it hokey, but I think it would be interesting, I would love for Star Treck to do an episode where they find an old satellite, crashed on an asteroid, and they recover it and try to decipher what it is and they decipher that it is extremely old, in fact, it's an old Soviet satellite; with a time capsule, a record with the Internationale, some pictures of Soviet people, children, workers, recorded greetings in Russian to those alien life forms that may find it and wishes for universal solidarity among all workers among the stars. The episode would be a lot like the Original and Next Generation series, scientific and kind of slow, but an interesting reflection on the history of space travel and even how ironic it is how many of the goals of the Soviet Union have actually been realized by the Federation. The end of the episode the captain would reflect on taking the old satellite back to a museum of history, but in the end, they repair it and send it on its way and as the satellite drifts away, you can hear the old recording of the Internationale playing as the screen fades to black and the credits roll.
I also liked the visual effects, sense of grandeur, and musical score. I later read the book of William Shatner's, mentioning the Borg having created V'ger. I would never had thought along those lines, and have always considered separate, different things. For instance what happened to that couple at the end certainly would not have been of the Borg.
So, in addition to the Borg-V'ger connection, what do you think of The Motion Picture?
One of my personal favs. A slow burn but really thematic, emotional and horny. Such a horny movie.
I don't really think of the Borg being involved personally. As for the movie at large, I really enjoy it conceptually, but I do think it could've been edited down for a bit tighter story without losing the grandeur or mystique of the story. Having said that, I do still enjoy watching the movie.
Stay well out there, and God be with you, friend. ✝️ :)
An underappreciated classic that forgoes the whiz bang action spectacle of so many sci-fi films for a thought provoking and meditative journey.
There is NO canon (movie or TV shows are the only canon in Star Trek) that posits the V'ger/Borg connection.
My favorite of all Star Trek movies. The only Star Trek film that feels like it's science fiction first, Star Trek second. The 70s style futurism is beautiful.
In the Star Trek novel series "Cold Equations" V'ger was actually an extra-dimensional entity created when the Voyager probe went into a different reality. I thought it was a better direction than the Borg, they get so overplayed these days.
Well they did state in TMP that Voyager 6 was presumed lost when it entered a black hole.
Yeah, they do. I forget what it was, but their was a book that tried claiming the planet killer from "The Doomsday Machine" was built as a borg weapon, but not only is that a boring answer, there was no reason it was needs to be tied to them and it was supposed to be from outside the galaxy anyway
@@commanderproton7763 Exactly, I don't understand how they come to that conclusion, Spock even says they traced back its path and it came from outside the galaxy.
Its right in the episode.
@@commanderproton7763 The book you're referring to is called " Vandetta ". I've read it. Definitely not one of the best ST novels out there.
Well this theory that V'ger and Borg is really old in Star Trek history .And there was a book with the entire Star Trek history from the movies and the shows .Which showed that V'ger might have been the Borg Homeworld .And it was the Star Trek Continuum with all the history and dates in Star Trek .So you should find that now hard to find book ,since it would answer some more querions for you .
The Borg are partly organic in nature, V'Ger is machine, a "living" machine but a machine.
V'ger's technology is clearly far more advanced than the Borg and it is much more powerful.
When Spock explores V'Ger's interior he specifically states that "whole galaxies" are recorded. There is no evidence that the Borg are extra-galactic.
Remember when Enterprise-D first encountered the Borg - it was when Q transported the ship to the galaxy M33 - sounds pretty extra-galactic to me.
@@rattywoof5259 He doesm't.
_DATA: According to these coordinates, we have travelled seven thousand light years. And are located near the system J two five_
_RIKER:Travel time to the nearest starbase_
_DATA: At maximum warp, in two years, seven months, three days, eighteen hours we would reach Starbase one eight five_
_PICARD: Guinan, your people have been in this part of the galaxy._
Seven thousand lightyears isnothing: M33 is the Triangulum Galaxy, which is 2.73 *million* lightyears . I think you are thinking of that episode _Where No One Has Gone Before_ where the Enterprise first encounters the Traveller and breaks the warp barrier
Plus his attitude towards organics clinches it. Also the whole "whole galaxies" recorded also means there should be a rather empty path trailing back.
Not true, Seven of Nine clearly stated on several occasions that the Borg have extra galactic travel experience as well as trans dimensional experience.
@@rattywoof5259 You're mixing up two episodes.
Episode 1x06 "Where No One Has Gone Before" is where the Enterprise first encounters the Traveller, breaks the warp barrier, and is taken to Galaxy M33, 2,700,000 light years away.
Episode 2x16 "Q Who" is where Q transports the Enterprise near System J-25, at least 7,000 light years away from the nearest Federation outpost, and where they encounter the Borg for the first time.
What an amazingly intelligent and coherent discussion of this question! My personal feeling is that no, V'ger doesn't really resemble the Borg in almost any way, nor do the Borg have anything (stylistically) in common with V'ger. They just look like different technologies with different origins, and that's what I'm sticking with.
My feeling is that the machine planet V'ger found is the machine species the synths contact at the end of season 1 of _Picard._
It would explain their godlike power AND why they left as soon as the signal the synths were sending stopped.
The Borg might have been alot different and more primitive when Voyager came in contact with them. Remember it took a considerable amount of time for Voyager to come back so during that time the Borg would have made quite a few technological advancements making their technologies look different. A computer from 2022 looks alot different than one from 1977 so you could imagine how many phases the Borg could of gone through.
@@myrtistaylor5759 sorry for repeating myself, but this! Not enough people consider that the Borg and V'ger may not have created/been created by each other, but maybe they both have a common ancestor so to speak? Why does it have to be so binary?
Sorry folks, Q introduced the Borg to humanity. He made no mention or connection between the Borg, humans, and, V'ger.
@@machinebeard1639 wrong. They knew and they were already headed towards the alpha quadrant. All Q did was temporarily speed up the process to show picard their not prepared or properly equipped for what lies ahead. Contact with the Borg was inevitable and the colective already had some humans well before leaving the delta quadrant
My 'head canon' had always been that V'ger emerged across the galaxy out of a Kerr black hole hundreds of thousands of years in the past. That would have allowed it plenty of time to traverse the galaxy, collect data, and contemplate itself, and accounts for the apparent extreme age of the probe. I assumed that the machine planet had long since gone extinct by the time V6 got back to Earth.
I've always found it interesting that, after returning from his meld with V'Ger, Spock uses these exact words: "Any show of _resistance would be futile_ , Captain."
Quintessential advice upon meeting a superior force.
That was a bit before the mind meld. That was when they were first pulled into V'ger and decker suggested shooting the tractor beam emitter and spock stated "any show of resistance would be futile"
The Vger - Borg connection is stated in William Shatner's Star Trek novel, "The Return" that's immediate sequel to Generations movie.
It Has a Borg, Romulan alliance. They ressurect Kirk from his tomb after stopping Sung.
At one point Spok is impersonating a Romulan, when the Borg recognise him as part of the collective.
They aren't hostile because they see him as Borg. Because he mind melded with Vger.
So so if Spok is a Borg. Then Vger did meet the Borg.
For me the debate ends with the small universe problem. It's just not fun if all AI is related somehow to the Borg.
But that doesn't mean the question should have been asked. I love debating if the Borg is related to Control or to the Reaper-like, because it is a tool to investigate what makes those different, more than what makes them alike.
That's a great point. I think the only connection the Borg should have with V'Ger is that they would probably either envy it, or consider it to be almost deific. They would have assimilated knowledge of it at Wolf 359 (maybe even earlier), and learned of a machine that united with two organic life forms to complete its purpose. It possibly then achieved perfection, and ascend ... somewhere. How could the Borg not sit up and take notice of that!?
Come to think of it, maybe that's part of the reason why they're so interested in the Federation and Earth. They could want to learn everything they can about it to see how this came to pass.
@@irregularassassin6380 I believe there was a book about an ascended V'ger in the far future. Might be related to that God particle the Borg are interested in.
Since we had Picard S01 come out, I really want the machine civilization that created Vger to have been the same that created the beacon that was driving the Zhat Vash insane etc. To me that makes a LOT more sense, especially regarding Vger's reaction to biological crew members. The Borg would understand what those are right off the bat. Also, what purpose would the Borg have in upgrading a space probe and letting it loose? This doesn't help them assimilate a damn thing.
Exactly what I was thinking!
Actually the information it gathered definitely would help them, but they wouldn't have any use for a primitive probe other than the information it carried of species that built it. They wouldn't have any interest in upgrading the probe itself and sending it on its way though.
YES! Thank you! This is exactly what I was expecting them to reveal at the end of ST:Picard. In a show with as many call backs as ST:P, I was 100% certain that this was where they were going with that. There's only ever been one fully synthetic civilization mentioned in Star Trek, and that was the creators of V'Ger. Seemed like a huge missed opportunity.
@@charlesajones77 That's not wholly true, but V'Ger's uplifters were probably the most established. There are two other wholly mechanical "civilizations" (that I can think of). Those being the nanobots Wesley Crusher accidentally uplifted, and the Exocomps. The latter should count because in Lower Decks an Exocomp joined Starfleet and referenced having a father. This likely mans that they are multiplying, and could have a small civilization somewhere.
Granted, I think your point still stands. If they had revealed that, it would have gone a long way to saving that season in my eyes.
@@irregularassassin6380 Opening the Pandoras box of both species knowing about humans, and raising the question of why they would want to uplift a human probe?
William Shatner explored this idea in his book "Star Trek: The Return." Kind of an underrated book. It picked up after "Star Trek: Generations," and featured Kirk being resurrected by the Borg.
Yes! Such a great book!
I was wondering if anyone else read that series. I really enjoyed it.
@@walterkeathley i had the audio book as a kid.
It was Cybertron. The Quintessons were the ones that created V'Ger. It's canon now. V'Ger's call was clearly "Bah-weep-grah-na-weep ninny-bog."
If it was connected to anything within the Trek universe, it had to be from the weird metal tentacle aliens from the end of Picard season 1. That actually helps both shows, I think.
That was awesome!!! 😂
V'Ger junkion connection, lol
I don't like the idea that humanity created the Borg in any sense, but I'd be fine with V'ger having contacted them at some point. Rumors about the Alpha quadrant are already somewhat present in other quadrants, as demonstrated in Voyager and DS9, even if part of that knowledge comes from the Founders, they seem to know an awful lot more about us than we do about them. I think my favorite version of this theory is that the Borg modified V'ger and sent it back home, possibly causing it to evolve as it went until it became what we see in the film
I feel more like V'ger is actually the genesis of the Borg, and the first birth of the concept of merging machine with man. I feel like the inhabitants of the machine world are wholly separate from the Borg, and instead simply contributed to its existence. I might be wrong, I am not exactly up to date with Star Trek lore and what is canon, but that's how I always thought of it.
It would be poetic for the machine world that encountered V’ger to actually have come across a species that were both scientifically curious, but dying out from a biological plague of some kind, and the machine world entities discovered this species and decided to “rescue” them… saving them from their fate, but creating the Borg in the process.
In Voyager when charity and seven of 9 was inside discovered the mars mission they also discovered material simular to organic metal that could have been from the machine world.
The problem with that theory is that Guinan said the Borg are thousands of centuries old.
@@moon_yeka Yeah, that's what I thought really. It's a cool idea, but it just doesn't work. Thanks for letting me know.
That's how I thought it was too glad it's not just me
I feel like the advanced synthetics from Picard were written in to explain Vger's origin. Note, Vger said, "machine planet" not "cybernetic planet".
That was my thought when they were first mentioned in Picard.
"There guys are probably the ones that built V'Ger."
Is that what the Synthetics called them in Picard? I forgot.
"Note, Vger said, "machine planet" not "cybernetic planet"."
On Picard, aren't the Higher Synthetics supposedly *very* ancient synthetic beings?
As far as the Borg, isn't the theory that they started out all machine, but then Decker joined with V'Ger and then the Borg possibly came from that? (So, not so ancient, regardless of whether there is a distinction between machines with artificial intelligence versus cybernetic beings -- though this may be a distinction without a difference.)
@@mmortal03 cybernetic requires both synthetic and organic components. The border are called such because they are cyborgs. Synthetics are do not posess biological components.
The idea from the Shatnerverse books was that V'ger was but one kind of "Borg". The proto-Borg/proto-V'ger race experimented with the ways best to explore the universe and ultimately expand. They then split into factions. Vger was one such 'faction', the Borg became another. I imagine there were others. Just don't remember if the book mentioned if there were others. This makes sense in a way. They didn't put their eggs in one basket to accomplish their goals, and diversified. But those paths seemed to have changed greatly as time passed. Since both factions we know of seem to have some fatal flaws. Vger getting sidetracked with Earth via Voyager, and the Borg becoming a hostile killing species. But then again, that may have actually been acceptable to the proto-Borg. Since they were exploring different ways to expand. I find this element of the Shaterverse books fantastic and a really high quality sci-fi story.
I like the idea of V-ger coming from something far beyond anything else in the Star Trek universe.
I've never really understood the desire to connect the Borg with V'Ger. As viewers, I think we're meant to connect with V'Ger as something intrinsically tied to humanity, yet vast, incomprehensible, and mysterious. It's supposed to fill us with awe, and over-explaining it kills that.
And as for the Borg, I feel like their origin is sufficiently baked in to their very premise: At some point in the past (I know there are beta canon specifics), a group of people who used cybernetic enhancements eventually networked and created a collective consciousness, and the rest is history.
There's nothing to connect these other than the fact that both have some AI components, as you stated n the video.
Side note: I just recently discovered your channel, and I'm tearing thorugh your back catalogue. Really interesting explorations of the potential science, especially biology, behind Trek.
It was a main plot point of the star trek legacy video game. one of the best str trek games around and published by paramount so lost of ppl think cannon
Yes totally agree. To tie V'ger mystery to the Borg would drain it of all its mythic resonance and cosmic scale, which is what makes it memorable.
Voyager6 was manmade
@@tacheonspeed79er yep, that's the intrinsic connection to humanity I mentioned.
I’m not even a fan of Star Trek but I enjoyed this video. Such crazy concepts. Thank you.
Borg created V'ger:
The borg don't take in strays, hand out freebie tech then let the decked out entity go on its merry way. They integrate. Devour. Assimilate.
V'ger created the Borg:
V'ger's mission was to amass knowledge for the sake of amassing knowledge. The Borg sought perfection, to which amassing knowledge was only the means to an end. V'ger does not utilize the information it gathers. Therefore V'ger would not purposefully create the Borg. If the Borg got a knowledge boost from V'ger, they must have actively gathered that data from V'ger, meaning they would have already been on their mission toward amassing knowledge to attain perfection, so V'ger, again, would not be their originator in any way, shape or form.
This connection is such a damn annoyance to see dredged up time and time again when it takes literally no effort to dismiss...
Yes I think that V'her would make a snack out of the Borg LoL
That doesn't preclude the possibility that V'ger created the Borg and that they originally had the same mission, but that the Borg's mission was changed or corrupted later on, possibly after V'ger lost contact with them.
@@Mabus16 It does, because V'ger does not formulate the idea to merge with the carbon life forms before such a merge is being suggested, up until then it considers them to be an infestation preventing it from communicating with its creator.
Therefore it would have not made any sense for this entity to jump to the solution to merge machine with organics beforehand.
@@dominic.h.3363 Again, how do you know that this didn't occur after whatever entity V'ger created lost contact with V'ger? You're assuming that just because one was created by the other that they couldn't have diverged after being separated.
@@Mabus16 Because superintelligent machines and/or hive minds don't tend to make shit up as they go... and you assigning an attribute to an entity it does not display in canon is just a lazy method to make a cube fit into a circle shaped hole. Almost as lazy as time travel to shape the chain of causality to your liking...
I'm glad you touched on "small universe" syndrome. It's a cop out if V'ger and the Borg are connected, you can have more than 1 robot race just like alien or humans. This is my issue with Star Wars right now, Filoni has to stick his OC in everything and it makes it feel small and constrained.
V´ger is not the origin of the Borg I consider it as the orgin of someone very similar to Q.
This is easily one of the best ST channels. Your writing is great, and I appreciate you not just reading off a wiki with stolen fan art.
Thanks Todd! I certainly try to make sure I'm always *adding* something to the conversation
The Borg V'ger connection, although flawed as you stated, is one of my favorites. Maybe V'ger didn't create the Borg (or was created by them) but I do like the idea of maybe they both had a sort of common ancestor? Maybe that machine species was content to just sit at home until V'ger introduced them to the concept of exploration. I will say that V'ger's method "Absorbing" it's specimens does remind me of the Borg directive to assimilate. I'd also be happy with a completely unconnected origin for the Borg.
Come on PEOPLE, the BORG originated in the DELTA quadrant. Voyager was launched FROM Earth, with conventional rockets. Even traveling at it's fastest speed, it would have taken CENTURIES to thousands of years at LIGHT Speed. No way could it have been launched, reached the Delta Quadrant, BEEN assimilated by the BORG and sent back towards Earth in the couple of hundred years between launch and Star Trek the Motion Picture. time frame.
@@QuantumRift wormholes
@@brennonbrunet6330 Meh, Voyager didn't wanter into a wormhole, and it wasn't sentinet enogh at that point to even KNOW what a wormhole was, so it could not create the Borg that would have known about wormholes. No, you can't retcon this into the Star Trek Universe.
@@QuantumRift why does an object need to be aware of a wormhole in order to fall into it? The both could have emerged naturally as a byproduct of V'ger iterating on it's own form. Sentience is not needed for either of these things to have happened. Also, I never said that it should be retconned, but rather that I like the admittedly flawed premise.
I expected when you mentioned Transformers that would be a segue into Transformers history with the Voyager space program. In Transformers lore, the Golden Disks aboard the Voyager probes play a pivotal role in the evolution of both Cybertron and Earth.
Interesting although the convoluted mess time travel usually is.
Very poor idea to have ever leaked out.
Had the Borg been the creators of V'Ger, imagine them several hundred years later - how much further they'd be.
The world described in TMP is a machine world - not a cyborg world.
The problem with the Borg is their insatiable desire to multiply through assimilation.
As Seven said in the "Friendship One" episode of ST:Voyager, "if the Borg had encountered any Terrestrial technology (prior to Q snapping his fingers at Picard in ST:NG), then the Borg would have taken this calling card as an invitation to assimilate Earth centuries sooner than their first attempt."
doesn't mean that the introduction of assimilating organic matter couldn't have come later. Maybe the machine world became really curious about exploration after meeting V'ger and that's when they started integrating organic matter into their structure? Maybe the best way for the machines to understand these organic makers that their probe friend kept going on about was to assimilate them?
Last but not least, pretty sure there is an explicit reference in Voyager about the Borg collective nearly collapsing in the distant past. Technological progress doesn't have to be a linear function.
"V'Ger wishes to join with the creator" later takes on a more literal meaning closer to Borg assimilation, although it manifested itself as a lightshow in TMP.
That is because V'ger became the Borg when it assimilated the Deltan Cre member.
@@BigC073 If you watch Season 1 of TNG, there is an indication that the Borg are already around, Remember they had dropped several throw away lines that Starbases and outposts along the neutral zone were disappearing, which was why the Enterprise was out that way, same with the Romulans, and both sides thought the other was doing it. In the episode the Neutral Zone, Wolf even comments about the outpost looked as though "a great force had come and scooped the outpost off the planet." and wondered how the Romulans pulled it off. The Borg were already in the area, just not ready to go after Earth. Q snapping his fingers if anything, allowed humanity to become aware of a threat in such a way, that the borg wouldn't conclude they needed to make an immediately move on Earth.
The next question is Where is V'Ger now?
I really enjoy these breakdowns and deep dives. Thank you.
I love this channel so much! I come here to be entertained and always leave as such but also educated. You can't beat that!
TMP is my favorite ST film. The movie has aged like fine wine. It’s pure science fiction. Isaac Asimov was a consultant. It’s a really wonderful story about getting where you need to be. Kirk needs the Enterprise; Spock needs “Kirk,” aka, humanity; V’Ger needs to evolve; Decker needs Ilia. The strength of the characters carries the film. ST now relies on ‘splosions. This movie, as well as Insurrection, at least attempted to be truer to their respective shows.
As a fan, i can tell you that Bob Wise’s Director’s Edition on DVD is the best version to watch, due to the completed effects and scene restorations - notably Spock’s “I weep for V’Ger” monologue. Fun fact: Leonard Nimoy was the last to agree to join the film, so they brought him back to the Enterprise last in a grand entrance. 🖖
You gave the best explanation I've heard. I think this just more stems from the fact we want an origin for these things
Thing is while we don't know what race and exactly when it happened we DO know the origins of the borg. Both Voyager and First Contact gives us hints, they were a race of organic beings like Humanity who began to improve themselves with technology until they became what know as the Borg.
While with V'ger trying to explain the mystery of the Machine Civilization that rebuilt the Voyager space probe would completely ruin the atmosphere that movie had going. Not all things need an explanation, and shoe horning two completely incompatible things that only share a minor theme isn't a great idea in my opinion.
It would be fascinating if, in some future series, they mentioned the wide path of assimilation/destruction left behind by V’ger. There must be an empty section or sections of the galaxy, depending on the route it took.
The Bootes Void...
Nice discussion. Personally, I remain unconvinced of a V'Ger-Borg connection.
I actually saw the motion picture in the theatre in 1979, the overwhelming comments from my social circle at the time were; 1. Too much time spent showing the ship, and 2) not enough battle scenes.
This was you best work so far. In my opinion. Good job Tyler.
My comments: Cut out everything and add more ship!
I'm starting to crave a mega video that covers the fleshing out of past vids and the in betweens that connect the subjects... 🤔🤩
And you totally missed a Mycelium op.😂😂
I always enjoy your videos but feel a bit of an aaawww it's over?
Which, I guess, is a good thing.😁
🖖🏻🌟
The Vger - Borg connection is stated in William Shatner's Star Trek novel, "The Return" that's immediate sequel to Generations movie.
It Has a Borg, Romulan alliance. They ressurect Kirk from his tomb after stopping Sung.
At one point Spok is impersonating a Romulan, when the Borg recognise him as part of the collective.
They aren't hostile because they see him as Borg. Because he mind melded with Vger.
So so if Spok is a Borg. Then Vger did meet the Borg.
Mystery makes it cooler 😎
Absolutely smashing work! Always more informative than you can possibly expect!
Thank you Ricardios!
I had been thinking there might have been a connection between the super synths from Picard but I think the machine planet was just one of those Rodenberries that was never meant to be more than just the story at hand.
so an early version of JJ Abrams mystery box crap. Something that is just there to add to the story.
I once wrote a script that Vger was the origin of the Borg
Small Universe Syndrome. That about says it all. I think V'Ger and the Borg are entirely separate and hope to never find out more about the Machine Planet
Right? I'm baffled so many fans just cant accept they there can be more than one machine species in this massive universe, I don't get the obsession's people have trying to connect them.
Plus like you said the mystery is half the fun.
He's been assimilated into the Borg Origin Apologist Collective. On a more serious note. Dig the video. Good thinking!
here's a connection you totally forgot about: V'GER refers to Earth as its place of origin. The Borg refer to the Solar System as Sector 001.
Star fleets designation for federation headquarters is sector zero zero one. It’s not that deep.
Surely Picard season 1 answers this question. It confirms there is a super advanced AI civilization outside of our galaxy.
Considering just how powerful V'Ger was, it's more likely that the end of Star Trek: The Motion Picture was the birth of the Q
Still too small a universe.
Personally I'm of the opinion the Q are simply future humans. That's why they "guide" us they're simply ensuring thier own existence.
Either would explain why he focuses on humans rather than Ferengi or Vulcans, say. IF they are the result of Decker and V'Ger fusing, it explains why Q is fascinated with Picard and the Enterprise
A topic i wanted to hear about for years, so well done
V'ger is Nomad 2.0
Expect it's older... but BIGGER!
No, really. The "Changeling" plot is undoubtedly the basis for TMP, from the human probe encountering alien technology, transforming into completely unique entity, and having the power to destroy whole planets. They both struggle to understand how a physically (possibly mentally) inferior organic species could be their creators... Is this patronizing? Like this is on some commentary option of an mid 2000s box set of Star Trek I-VI, right??
All I'm trying to say is that nobody talks about Nomad being Borg... why do they talks about V'ger being Borg? Because all the Star Trek canon is linked?
What are you... a Star Wars fan?
Perfect 🥰
Love the gloriously rambling first half - I'd honestly forgotten about the Borg myself by that point! 😂
i think that a lot of the original series should not be canon
That’s insane, it’s the original canon.
I would more like to see what became of Vger after the movie.
Ooh I was excited for this one! I really enjoy The Motion Picture conceptually, and I think V'ger is very interesting. Plus, I think it's awesome that you used a PBS Spacetime clip in here and so much real world black hole science! Thank you for a very cool video!
Stay well out there everybody, and God be with you, friends! ✝️ :)
Which god?
@@shanecarson2337 The only God: the God of Israel, the God of the Bible and Jesus Christ, His Son.
@@Numba003
"The only god"
Oh, so money.
"israel, bible, jesus"
I thought you were being serious. I didn't realise you were meaning plagiarised characters.
@@shanecarson2337 I imagine there are very many people out there that value many things more highly than their money.
As for "plagiarised characters," could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by that?
@@Numba003 Plagiarism is the stealing of other things and claiming it for oneself/as one's own. The story of virgin birth and miracles and this, that and the other is WAY older than christianity and abrahamism. There is nothing original nor unique in abrahamism.
I’ve always believed that V’Ger created the Borg. When Decker and the Ilia probe merged it caused and an amazing blast of energy that shot off into the galaxy. This was the birth of a new species. Man and machine as one. But isn’t it the nature of every life form to survive and evolve in order to survive? I could go on but that’s the backbone of my theory and I love to see you do a video on that.
Of all the grand ideas, great stories, compelling characters, and amazing effects of the entire Star Trek canon, there's only one thing that really matters in the long run...
...Remember where we parked.
LOL !!
Saw this at Taunton (UK) cinema what I was 12, was totally blown away by the story and effects. The Borg are a totally different kettle of fish, the "Machines" actually had some empathy and purpose towards the Creator.
I don't think the Borg and V'ger are connected or that thing in Picard. (That was just weird altogether.) Like a lot of things and/or intelligence that are encountered in Trek, I think that it's best left as a mystery. That's what I love about the original and TNG. Make it a one-time encounter and move on to the next.
If anything, the Borg would not have created V’Ger but the theory that the Borg were a product of V’Ger’s merge with Decker would make more sense, timelines aside.
Also theories that the N.O.M.A.D probe from TOS also came into contact with a damaged sattelite/probe from a borg planet. The reason V'Ger is more 'powerful' than the Borg is because it continued to Evolve and Grow as it assimilated knowledge across the universe. V'ger learned/adapted and evolved in a faster and more efficient way than the borg themselves.
That theory isn't any better than the V'ger one. It has the same arguments against it.
I always assumed N.O.M.A.D. and V'Ger had related origins. Although, if they don't, it's a fascinating example of convergent evolution in synthetic lifeforms.
If everything keeps evolving into crabs, maybe all space probes evolve into super-powerful information-hungry death-bots?
@@irregularassassin6380 Hmmmm. Plausible, and interesting.
I would love to take you out for a beer sometime.
It would be neat if in the “sphere data” we could see an encounter that it tried to communicate other space ships with out success. But leave it open enough to still be a mystery.
Perhaps, the first "Borg" encountered a probe from the machine world and were inspired by what they saw as "perfection".
Great video Tyler you raised a few interesting points and theories in it and the part about the black holes was also interesting. There have been a few theories in fact that certain black holes may act more like wormholes and be gateways to other parts of the galaxy or even other galaxies. so yeah another enjoyable video. Oh just like to add you have of course heard of the age old question what is the fastest root between two points? Well here on earth it's believed to be a straight line as the crow flies. But in space it may be different some scientists theorise that the fastest root between to points in space is to try and fold space somehow so both points appear in the same point at the same time. Yeah I know it sounds like I got that from the movie Event Horizon where Sam Neill's character invented a singularity drive which did exactly that folded space. But there are some scientists who theorise certain black holes can do this also yeah I know the video was to do with the Borg and V-ger but the black hole part was quite interesting. Anyway really enjoyed the video.
The mystery is important. V'GER is so far beyond our understanding, but is simultaneously simple.
Cool
I remember STTMP as a very suspenseful, atmospheric deep film. It's length amplifying it's heightened sense of awe.
When I was younger I found it the most difficult to watch out of the series, but as I got older I began appreciating it more and more. It didn't help that for years it was relegated to late-nite programming. Tv guide says it starts at midnight, ends at sunrise. Lol.
side note. Because of conflicting lore. Borg where either very old or not so old ( on what series you take) in voyager they are only 1000 years old, while Q says they are 10k. Some suggested like in picard. The borg have gone away and resurvaced several times. If you take enterprise series , how borg crashed in antartica still could assimilate people. this could be a real options. And maybe their earlier....forms they where in a different part of the galaxy.
And a counter: You say the borg. Might find v'ger less interesting. But i would counter that. They might have seen the message on voyager and think...how the hell did a probe that you travel this far. I think that would peak the intrest of the borg. I would agree that yeah, the probe by itself was a useless for the borg. Like Seven and her parents where a small 3 persons ship. But the fact that they where near a cube and not where they where supposed to be , made them a target.
personally i would not like to know where v'ger got its upgrades. Somethings are more fun if you do not know them.
I'll start off by saying "I hate temporal mechanics"
1999 - Voyager 6 is launched travels and falls into either a black hole / worm hole that spits it out in the distant past and in what would now be called the Delta Quadrant is found by a mostly peaceful living AI race and augmented to fulfill it's core programing "lean all that is learnable, and return that data to its creator"
2063 - The Borg Collective from 2373 travels back to stop First Contact, but ultimately fails due to the efforts of the Enterprise - E crew.
March 1, 2153 - (ENT, Episode 2x23) a Borg ship found crashed in the Arctic with 2 drones in it, they assimilate a few people, finish the "phone call" to the "Proto-Borg" in the Delta Quadrant with the coordinates of Earth, and it is said even if the message got to it's destination it would take about 200 years (with the known understanding of warp at the time) for who ever to show up on Earth's doorstep, but that doesn't account for the likes of V'Ger who was most likely about 80 years closer to earth doing its own thing. Star Fleet Intelligence aka Section 31 takes control of the left overs
Intervening years: V'Ger may or may not have encountered a probe looking for whales and was unable to catalog it damaging itself and the whale probe at the same time....
**January 4, 2233: Nero and The Narada emerges out of a lightning storm in space and destroys the U.S.S. Kelvin, not before it gets detailed scans and it's "black box recorder" is turned over to Star Fleet Intelligence (again Section 31) and they realize that the Narada has similar tech as what became Control and they sped up construction and outfitting of the Enterprise with prototype tech that had given another 200 years they could have scaled down. **
2257 - Section 31's Threat Analyses Program "Control" is based off a fragment of A.I. Tech gleaned from the Borg drones from the Artic event in 2153, and we see that it is still at its core assimilating people but without a connection to the greater Borg Collective Hive mind they where running under their own directives, and had they joined with the Sphere data they could have taken over the entire galaxy.
2270s TMP: V'Ger returns to the Alpha/Beta Quadrants, upon reaching scanning distance of Earth only finds a biological infestation and in the possible millennia it has been scanning has become more than just a prob, or even more then what the proto-borg could have imagined.
2293 Generations Enterprise B: the SS Lakul and the SS Robert Fox, caught in a strange energy ribbon. Aka The Nexus, the SS Lakul and the SS Robert Fox have refugees from the El-Aurian home world feeling a borg attack. we don't have a fixed point of where the El-Aurian home world is, but is assumed to be in the far reaches of the Beta Quadrant near the boarder of the Delta Quadrant.
(fun fact, the Q played by John de Lancie in one continuity The Nexus started out as a school prank or science project by Q and he never did know what happened to it or where it got off too) (something I'm going to be very adamant about here is that officially licensed works are canon, just not always in the same temporal continuity, but for the sake of head canon and fun, let's not get bogged down by that)
[ I can theorize and techno babble about this all day, but I already know I'm going to be met with prissy fans who can't or won't just take it as fiction and it doesn't really matter]
Q,Who - 2365: Q sends The Enterprise D into the path of a Borg Cube and the rest is as they say history.
@@idgamingfederation202 @IdGamingFederation My God. I am not a prissy fan.
Just said something that I noticed.
/theory crafting.
And just said I remember in the show q and vaudwar said different things about the age of the borg. No need to become mad.
And never said whale probe met v ger.
I said whale probe in the book from the movie ( if memory serves me right) met a cube shaped vessel with mites.
Was not saying you where wrong or anything. Was more like... What about this? I was not trying to proof anything. Just like... Hmmmm you say there is a plot hole. Let's see if I can think of a way to help fill that plot hole.
But calling a subscriber prissy, and going off in this. Look I know facts better rant, just caused you a subscriber... Loves you videos.
And never ment disrespect when reacting.
But do not need to be treated like this.
Tyler, great story line...and intriguing and always makes me hungry for more!
What if V-ger is related to the Sphere/Zora from Discovery?
it be a great concept to tie things together with a nice bow. but umm yeah not gonna happen.
@@RandomTrek84 I mean why are we actively trying to the make the Startrek Universe smaller? Why cant there just be multiple machine races in this massive fictional universe? Not everything needs to be tied together.
Cerebral. Well-paced and philosophical. Unusual for a Hollywood sci-fi movie. Blew my mind when I saw it.
Wasn't this already covered in one of "Shatners" books? Either The Return or The Ashes of Eden!? Spock get captured by The Borg and as they start to assimilate him they say they have detected Borg presence already in him from his mind-meld with V'Ger.
Yes, thank you! I remember reading that trilogy and it made so much sense. Always wish they could've worked it into 'tv' canon
@@mykleb1616 Maybe a cube was digitized by V'ger.
DUDE!!!!! TWO videos in and I LOVE your channel. Star Trek TMP is coming to my local theater here in May 2022 for a rescreening and I'm going to cosplay that up with a Capt. Kirk shirt from TMP. Awesome!!! Now, the movie, while when I was a child, I LOVED it..... but that was all the Star Trek movies I ever had up to that point. So, aside from TOS airing in reruns, books maybe and some comics, perhaps, TMP was it and I loved it...... went to the theater to see it with my Dad and then at home on cable EVERY chance I got. Now, in my adult "life." MMMmmm I can see how people would say that the movie is slow and a bore. I get it. But, Trekkies like you and I KNOW and UNDERSTAND the importance of it. So, thumbs up to the movie.... now, the whole Borg and V'ger thing.... I get it and I think that the Borg were, in MY opinion, in a strong, evolved state when V'ger came along. However, perhaps not to the "assimilation aggressiveness" that they are in Star Trek Canon now. I think, coupled with V'ger and perhaps Tonru (See Star Trek TOS "The Changeling") the Borg started their aggressiveness. I have also seen how the device in Star Trek TOS "The Doomsday Machine" was also a Borg derivative and invention to explore but turned into a weapon. How? Not sure yet in my exploration of Star Trek. I'd LOVE to see how someone can tie the Borg with V'ger AND The Doomsday Machine with a timeline that all makes sense...... THAT would be worth a watch or read. Live Long and Prosper, sir.
I always thought it was an interesting theory but I don’t believe there is a connection.
The real mystery is "Why did Starfleet switch to pajamas for uniforms?"
Here we go... Engage!
YES!!
My math describes the slope of the singularity of a black hole to be a spike instead of a curve, therefore the slope goes to infinity, which conceptually allows it to connect to another spike, which could be another black hole or the corresponding white hole.
Finally early for a video
I believe the Canon information which Captain Decker had stated is only plausible denialability. Voyager 1 and 2 were both built and launched for it's official purpose by taking advantage of the once per 175 year alignment.
However, Decker is partially correct since it's possible that NASA had detected a wormhole near Saturn and decided to keep it to themselves and built and launched Voyager 3 to 6 in secret to study the wormhole and after Voyager 6 entered the wormhole, NASA not only lost contact with the probes but the wormhole also disappeared too.
Trying to connect V'Ger to the Borg shows an extreme lack of imagination. Their similarities are very superficial. The ways they are different really stand out.
There are a lot of things in Trek that make a lot of sense to connect, this is not one of them.
100% agree
and honestly I wouldn't even say there's any similarities, V'ger is a living machine, the Borg are Cyborgs; their goals are completely different and incompatible. Not to mention First Contact and Voyager has given us more than enough information to guess at the borg's true origin thanks to dialogue from the Borg Queen and the Vaudwar.
No they didnt. It stated very clearly on the film it was created by a machine intelligence (non organic)
👍
@@subraxas 🤭
I rather like the idea of V-Ger, being the creator of the BORG, and that they just diverge from their original direction and directives, as-well-as, this also all happens in a distant past, explaining how they preexisting the Federation, have been developing for.."thousands of centuries"..as Guinan, puts it. Which would have them not assimilating technology and biology, until centuries passed between them breaking from V-Ger's control, and becoming what we are familiar with today.
Still, as so many are, I wish Gean had a chance to fully unveil the BORG origin before passing on. Even if not in film, fully explained them to other producers and writers, so particularly clever and/or clear paths could be "set in stone".regarding this complex subject.
My headcanon is that Shockwave found it and did his mad scientist thing. Or potentially even Unicron using V'ger as a herald and looking for Primus/Cybertron. So this tracks.
I like the idea of maybe having Vger come up every now and then just in passing ,maybe on a screen ,or as a prompt while in a discussion, might be interesting but I think it would be weird to have like episodes of that being the main focus.
I came for Star Trek lore and stayed for the astonishing accurate description of Black Holes and Singularities. ❤
The in universe explanation for Voyager 6 is that it was indeed launched as a classified NASA mission, but by the 23rd century it had been declassified and was common knowledge.
I think the V'ger/Borg idea is quite good, but I think an element of mystery is better than really knowing the truth.
My own head canon is that V'Ger began as Shatner's novels described, encountering a sub-group of the Borg, or perhaps a pre-Borg civilization that ended up joining the Borg and helping them become who they are by the 24th century. Then, it left the galaxy, surviving passage through the galactic barrier using a summation of technologies it accumulated to that point. Then, it continued assimilating technologies and knowledge in intergalactic space, picking up various super-warp technologies to go to distant galaxies and encountering the evil Kardashev Type 3+ super-AIs featured in Picard season 1 and implied by Control in Disco season 2. Then, at one point, through a bit of soul-searching, it decides to head home. Side note: my fan theory about the galactic barrier is that it was created to keep the super-AIs out, possibly by Iconians, Sargon's people, or some other ancient Kardashev Type 2+ civilization.
There’s a pretty huge TOS connection here that everyone likes to overlook in preference for their love of borg
Props for covering the Kerr metric!
Absolutely loved it, it's a masterpiece. Writing, acting and visual scenes are perfection!
I have had the casual theory that the Borg was an extension of V'Ger for a long time. Either one in the same or the evolution of V'Ger. I even wrote Robert Meyer Burnett asking about it like 6 years ago and he referred me to the Shatner novel mentioned in this video. However after hearing all of this information I am inclined to think they would probably not be related. I thought your video was great.
It would've definitely wipe out a group of Borg Cubes like they're flies.
I think NOMAD when launched by Jackson Roykirk in 2002 caught up with the 6th Voyager, which was a blackops probe that was secretly launched in the 90s to make contact ships spotted flying through our system since the 1950s over Pennsylvania....
Anyhow NOMAD, with better propulsion in 2002, took Vger in tow and merged with it following a ort cloud storm.
Star Trek TMP, where NOMAD has been before
What about Tan Ru?
I feel that the later voyager probes were intended to be purely interstellar or at least Kuiper belt probes, with advances in propulsion leading to high speeds. At any rate there’s no way any of these probes were FTL and the ‘black hole’ that was assumed to have been the demise of Voyager 6 could have been any number of unknown spacial anomalies including a trans warp conduit or an unstable natural wormhole.
It’s weird all these prewarp and early warp ships making it across the Galaxy or even outside. The second TOS pilot even has the enterprise doing something that a presumed warp 1 21st century ship did, crossing the galactic barrier.
I recently watched Star Trek I with my wife and despite the (partly valid) criticism, it is a movie worth watching ane we both liked it.
The pacing is obviously completely different than that of more modern movies or even movies from 20 years ago, however it makes sense.
Even at the time the pacing was considered slow, but the movie was also considered an incredible technical and financial success. That's despite it being massively over-budget and running wildly off-schedule. It's kind of a filmmaking marvel.
My theory is the Voyager 6 probe found it's way to Cybertron, homeworld of the Transformers, and also traveling back in time, long before the war between the Autobots and Decepticons.
I think V'Ger was made by the same machine intelligence that the synths were trying to contact in the first season of Picard.
V'Ger's "ship" had power and technology way beyond anything the Borg has.
If the Borg had that kind of power, resistance would truly be futile.
All three of those sounded awesome imo
So, you're saying that Vyger is like Galactis and the Borg are like The Silver Surfer? I don't think so. Vyger clearly transcended this universe when it melded with Decker. Completely different order of existence.
My interpretation is a little different. We created Voyager 6. It fell through a wormhole and travelled not just across space but backwards in time to a planet of purely machine beings. They sent it back and it became such a being. When it merged with Decker the new hybrid repaid the debt to its machine planet benefactors. It told them that machine +organic life was the way to perfection. So the Machine planet denizens created the Borg as a literal translation of that message which was sent backwards in time and across the universe as before. The experiment began in our galaxy in the Delta quadrant so the Machine planet is still there as a separate civilisation. Vger was a misinterpreted ideal than manifested as the Borg.
I like the idea that V'ger found the borg and enslaved them for a while. During this period, V'ger instructed the borg to absorb all knowledge, which slowly corrupted into the borg's philosophy that they must invade and assimilate. Now v'ger abandoned the borg failing to capture them. For centuries to come, the borg went to war with V'ger. Both tried to win, but it turned into a stalemate. The borg then continued their new agendas and V'ger set out to seek its creator.
Btw, loved the video and explanations!
I think that V'ger came across the machine intelligence indicated from the sphere, later turned into Zora, that Discovery found and Control was trying to get a hold of. It makes far more sense than the Borg and does fit cannon explanations as they never said where that planet was but it was a long way off if I remember correctly.
You know what I wish we could get a Star Treck episode of? I know some might call it hokey, but I think it would be interesting, I would love for Star Treck to do an episode where they find an old satellite, crashed on an asteroid, and they recover it and try to decipher what it is and they decipher that it is extremely old, in fact, it's an old Soviet satellite; with a time capsule, a record with the Internationale, some pictures of Soviet people, children, workers, recorded greetings in Russian to those alien life forms that may find it and wishes for universal solidarity among all workers among the stars. The episode would be a lot like the Original and Next Generation series, scientific and kind of slow, but an interesting reflection on the history of space travel and even how ironic it is how many of the goals of the Soviet Union have actually been realized by the Federation. The end of the episode the captain would reflect on taking the old satellite back to a museum of history, but in the end, they repair it and send it on its way and as the satellite drifts away, you can hear the old recording of the Internationale playing as the screen fades to black and the credits roll.
I also liked the visual effects, sense of grandeur, and musical score. I later read the book of William Shatner's, mentioning the Borg having created V'ger. I would never had thought along those lines, and have always considered separate, different things. For instance what happened to that couple at the end certainly would not have been of the Borg.