Gygax's GENIUS Dungeon Design Tips | 1975 Method
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- Опубликовано: 1 июл 2024
- In 1975, dungeons were pure madness, so let's review an essay by Gary Gygax himself on his own mad methods of D&D dungeon design! ▶️ More below! ⏬
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00:00 Gary's lost dungeon master advice!
00:58 crucial context for Gygax's tips
02:55 my own book about dungeons :)
03:50 wild dungeon themes of 1975
06:13 when the dungeon is a maze
09:25 plan unusual monsters
10:14 Gary's first dungeon was INSANE...
#dnd #dungeonsanddragons #osr 
Игры
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It’s important to note that Gygax is operating under the assumption that the further down you go in a dungeon, the more difficult it is. Bamboozling your players with gently sloping corridors and magical elevators was a part of the fun
Exactly…an old school funhouse dungeon. Most post TSR players have never experienced this type of dungeon, which is why they have trouble grasping the concept.
Exactly. Both of you are right.
I think the best advice I ever got about dungeons is "The Dungeon hates you."
Treating it not only as a location, but a whole underworld helped me a lot to improve stuff.
Also, I argue that no one needs nore than 30 rooms.😂
That is good advice! The thing about "30 rooms" is that I think a dungeon should have a change in theme/aesthic around that point. But yes, the dungeons can go on!
More than 30 rooms is definitely part of the traditional "megadungeon" idea. Back in the day, you didn't just tackle a whole dungeon at once, you would go in for a bit until you ran out of resources, then run away back to town. Then you'd come back later with more supplies. Eventually you'd hit a challenge you couldn't defeat and go somewhere else until you were ready to handle the new threat. It's like if you ran a level 1-20 campaign today, but then just said that all the dungeons for each adventure were in the same location.
Need? No
Want? Sometimes
In many ways 5e is designed for 5-10 encounters per adventuring day. A 30 room dungeon would take 3-6 days to complete.
Having some empty rooms, some puzzle rooms, and some traps can spread out the combat while burning resources.
Having each adventuring day separated be a long corridor, stairs, or even a crevasse the party has to climb down explains why a long rest after clearing a level isn't interrupted.
A level filled with dragons really blows my mind. It makes you rethink what a level is - possibly an entrance into a hollow earth with its own “sun” we know Gygax liked Edgar Rice Burroughs.
Good to see you, Daniel!
Dragons is plural in the title of the game.
During our early 80s campaigns, Jerry was our cartographer, and to this day, even though I do everything on the computer, I find it nearly impossible to resist buying graph paper if I see it in a store. :)
I've watched a few fantasy-styled shows and i always appreciate when they show mapping crews or talk about exploration in this way of known & unknown hazards.
"Here's what we know of the first 3 floors. We've put a sign out to tell you how to get past this trap which resets after 10 minutes, but at the end of the corridor, there's a series of gems that nobody's decyphered yet"
But you're not Bob room builder!
He was an Interior Decorator!
@@obiwankenobi9439 Doesn't have the same ring to it xD
How about "Bobs Original Builder" or just B.O.B
Worlds are built one room at a time.
Rooms can be a pretty important part of a world
I started playing D&D in the early '80s and yes, we had a "Mapper". It was a slow and tedious process, and we eventually stopped doing it. But in retrospect, it did lead to some funny arguments. "There can't be a corridor there, there's no room for it!" "Yes there is, the DM said the room was 30' wide north-to-south, not east-to-west!" And of course, many dungeons had features that were there deliberately to mess with the mappers, such as silent teleporters, sliding walls, etc. DMs were expected to be much more adversarial back then.
Another convention of the time was the "Caller" -- the player who would lead the party through the maze and sort of manage the exploration element of the game (once combat started, it was generally every man for himself). This was good in that it kept things focused, and you didn't have people shouting over each other or giving contradictory information to the DM. But it also meant that the non-Caller players were sort of taking the back seat, and not interacting with the DM directly as much. Even today, I find most groups have that one player who takes it upon themselves to try and keep things moving and the party on track when everyone else is wandering off on their own tangents, but it's no longer an official "job".
A lot of these conventions seem quaint or even ridiculous now, but you have to remember that Gygax and co. were literally spinning this game out of thin air. There were no precedents to look back on, everyone was flying by the seat of their pants.
Keys of the Golden Vault needs a caller for each session.
What people forget is the magic system for non players were not set. So you could have a room which slowly rotated while you were killing the monster. So the only door now opened to the east of the map instead where your started. Add in auto teleportation rooms, elevators, etc, you did need a mapper.
We never used a caller when I played AD&D, but it is important to note that some old school games could have 10 or even 15 players (which makes chaos in my opinion) where a caller would basically be required. I can’t imagine playing with a crowd like that.
My groups didn't formally name a caller but instead rewarded the vastly underpowered rogue with the job of scouting ahead. This resulted in the rogue dying more than any other class while the party waited for sounds to alert them of danger.
I wish someone would make a reference to the DELVE book... ahh, if only it was in the video...
Was ready for a pun...
"After 50 rooms in the fire dungeon your players are burned out"
I loved the zooming in on Gary in the background.
Oh man, totally missed opportunity for that pun! And zooming Gary? Idk what you're talking about... 👀
I started playing in 1977 (Holmes, later amped up with the 3 original supplements, articles, and then the AD&D manuals as they were released in 1977, '78, and '79), and we used a mapper! It was a lot of fun, and it certainly made things like looking for secret doors a little more strategic. Plus, it helped to distinguish the (relatively easier) mapping of constructed rooms and the (often confusing) mapping of natural caves & caverns.
That's awesome. Great point about distinguishing between different environments for dungeons!
The group I'm in now has been using Miro to map out our current campaign. It's definitely a lot more engaging to find secret doors by looking for void space on the map than just mechanically saying you search in every room
Started playing in the 80s and we had a party mapper, usually me.
Literally never stopped to ask about the dimensions of each room or hallway because the method I learned when I got started was bubble mapping. You just make a flowchart, with bubbles for rooms and lines for hallways. It's much, much faster than trying to draw a square-accurate map *and* it makes it so when you get sent to faerie and have to deal with non-euclidean geometry in your dungeon, you're *still* equipped to map it out without making any changes to your method.
Trying to draw an accurate to the square map from descriptions is by far the worst way to go, followed by just having an official map that everybody can see, followed by the DM drawing the map as you go, followed by just revealing official map on a table.
Never heard it called bubble mapping, but yeah that's definitely the way to go!
It's effective at tracing paths for sure, but loses out to granting an understanding of the space, won't help you do things like notice where hidden areas might be, and generally is just lame vibes.
I’m a homebrewing map-drawing as I go DM with thoughts of bringing prepped maps and revealing them. How do you keep secret areas from being easily seen by players? I don’t see it possible with anything premade.
@@Hot_Dicethis is where you have to make 2 copies: the DM version and the player version (hence the beauty of a player cartographer). The player version only has doors, windows, room size and things 100% necessary (shelves and desk in a study), just enough so the players can identify the rooms purpose if it has one. Other things in the room you can make up on the fly. It’s up to the players to find anything secret afterwards.
@@R_J8 I see I see. On the player map, would you leave room for where a secret would be, like how Bob mentioned in the video? Or would you have it seamless and then reveal later that there was a space. Seems like if you show them a map with no extra space it would be misleading so they wouldn’t search for extra spaces, if you follow what I mean.
I started playing in 1990 with the Mentzer Red Box. We definitely used the "mapper" role, although our DM was kind enough to point out when we were getting the map completely wrong. I generally played with this style until circa 2004, when I joined a 3.5 game where the DM drew out the dungeon on a Chessex battlemat with wet-erase markers. Since then I haven't really played in many campaigns where the DM doesn't draw out the map, either on a dry erase battle mat, or provided to us via VTT.
Cool to hear how you experienced the evolution of these styles!
Some advice I have absorbed over the years.
Number one. Make the dungeon tell a story.
Number two. Make every room have a point. Make every room tell a piece of the story. Make every room reveal a new piece of information the players need.
Number three. Monsters are not dumb. Monsters are predators. Fierce nasty predators. Make them act accordingly. Make the dungeon itself a hostile and forbidding place.
Number four. Don't put a gate in the dungeon that prevents the players from progressing if they don't accomplish a skill check/ task/ puzzle perfectly. Make it challenging but avoid bottle necks where the players just stare at each other in confusion because they don't understand what they have missed or what they need to do.
I love the idea of vertical shafts and chasms as access points. A chance to break out ropes and climb.
Don't forget the opportunity to plummet! :D
A lot happened between the time that Gary wrote that essay, and I started playing just 3-4 years later. The ink on the basic sets was barely dry, we were DEFINITELY keeping a map .. and EVERY dungeon was home made. Those Early published modules were bonkers, we read through them for inspiration, but made our own. Dungeon ecology is VERY important!
Ps I may have early childhood trauma issues stemming from the nixie fountain. I now approach any body of water with suspicion and dread.
Keep on the borderlands has different types of monsters inhabiting the same dungeon in the Caves of Chaos but does not feel dumb!
Yeah, having them all open to the shared environment of the open-sky wild helped.
Not dumb, but definitely a little close for comfort for me haha, to each their own!
@@BobWorldBuilder Well it was the borderlands. I would love to develop further on the theme that the Keep on the Borderlands hinted at. The keep was the last outpost. Beyond it lay the lands of the goblinoids....essentially Mordor. The keep was entirely too small. But...an entire land region devoted to goblinoids sounds like a wonderful trek. You are in their territory and should you need to escape? Well then...good luck!
The open air plan of that valley/canyon was sheer briliance and so was using elevation contours in the map. Many players know how to understand contour maps and they should be used more. Doesn't make sense to have a monster condominium? It can make sense. Factions and alliances between goblinoid types or gnolls and th like makes sense too. It doesn't have to be monolithic but could make logical sense if it is a mosaic of monsters trying to get by.
Of course they constantly raid: they have to. Of course the Orc Cheiftan loves to feed adventurers and captives to his pet gelatinous cube.
And of course the monsters will do anything they have to in order to survive and wish to ascend to greater power.
One of the things I dislike about a lot of narratives and designs is the emphasis on it being the pyramid scheme where there is a top boss. That is overplayed.
Make the dungeon denizens have needs, and make the way those monsters are played make sense. They want to live. They want to conquer. They want what the adventurers have. Most importantly they want more power and will opportunistically exploit anything at their disposal... much like...well the adventurers do themselves.
Keep on the Borderlands was good for the explanation because the dungeons in the canyon were all mini-dungeons. Would the orcs help the gnolls? Maybe, but not necessarily. Did they know each other? Certainly. Was there a rivalry? Probably. Was their cooperation? Probably on big jobs.
You don't need a big boss for that.
Also, with the Borderlands Idea....what happens if the orcs are all slain? Well nothing in the long run but new residents move in to replace them.
Did that Orc Cheiftan have a Son or a Brother? Very likely.
Dungeons also should evolve. What happens to them after the players have cleaned them out and looted everything? Somebody else moves in.
What happens if there is a surviving Orc who saw how the players dominated? That orc learned his lesson and will now have ideas about the tactics used against him.
Monsters are in an arms race. Monsters are in a race for better tactics. Monsters should be played more intelligently. And they are not. They are all mindless damage dealers that dont' care about their own kin or survival, and they are forgetful creatures who never communicate. Eseentially they are played as if they have the minds of chickens with rabies.
This is why arrow slits and murder holes and guard rooms need to be emphasized.
Dungeons are the products of the evolution of lost fights and lost battles.
What are the monsters trying to protect? Not treasure. They are trying to protect themselves. And they are trying everything they can to get an advantage and dominate. They are trying to gain skills and any advantage they can.
That alone can turn a simple encounter of 8 doomed Orcs into what would feel like a battle with Navy SEALS.
What do Monsters really crave? Slaves. Most of all they crave slaves.
So in order for Monsters to have Slaves they must have habitat and a way to keep those slaves.
Slaves are another advantage monsters can have in battle.
Yeah... the caves kind of do feel dumb. It's why I make the caves a bunch of caves structure (or sometimes tents) along a long road heading toward the temple. It also explains why the entire force doesn't respond when you enter the complex, or when other caves respond when you attack. I add a lake fed by a river and some other stuff to explain how they eat and get water etc.
@@OceanusHelios I like the Mordor reference. That is exactly how I envision my mod of it. I also like having wandering bands of goblins/orcs moving about.
A month back, I got to play through one of Gary's original unpublished Castle Greyhawk levels (circa 1975). In the living room of his old house in Lake Geneva, no less. And yes, there were mindbending magical tricks and traps meant to confuse navigation and deadly whimsy to spare. We survived, though, and the experience was amazing.
Started playing in the late 70's with OD&D, there was always a mapper. It's now 2024, I DM an extremely homebrewed hybrid AD&D (1st&2nd edition with highly altered BECMI rules for Immortals'Gods') and there is still always a mapper when we're not using dungeon tiles (use of tiles is rare, and only for when a fairly precise field of view for combat is needed due to elevation, etc.)
Using mappers
I started playing D&D in early Feb of 1977. We used mappers. Some people were better at it than others. Those folks often get 'stuck' mapping game after game, campaign after campaign. The same with the official note takers; some were just better and that became their personal role in the group. It helped forge the players into a more cohesive group, and sometimes afforded me some sidebar entertainment as they argued over details.
I started in June of 1976, and of course we used a mapper. I became the main DM, because of the first two experience in other people's dungeons. I never use to Wilderness Survival, but as the nearest settlement was over a day away, I did have outdoor encounters. But it was the dungeon that people came for and they needed a mapper, because as everyone knew, "The Dungeon hates you."
I know what you mean about getting stuck! Even though we don't use a mapper anymore, I'm still one of the notetakers haha
We used mappers for a long time. I had one guy who loved that part of the game the most. He didn't really bother with much of the NPC interraction stuff, and would fight when needed to, but his maps were always really neat and well drawn and he made notes on them, and little drawings of what was in the rooms" they were almost like cartoons of the adventure as it had played out.
You had to make DAMNED sure as a DM that you gave good directions and descriptions. Part of the fun was when they got lost. I used to hate opening a new module and seeing one of those bloody cave warren maps. I'm sure they put those in there as a special torture to DMs and groups who used mappers.
We also started out with the "Caller" because... that's what it said in the rules, and there weren't 45 or 50 years worth of experienced people telling us it was uneccessary. (It's something I often ask people who get deeply furrowed brows when talking about how they play "Old School Rules"... "Really? How do you decide who gets to be Caller? Do you take it turns or just... a fight in the yard?")
One of the advantages of a VTT is that you can turn line of sight on.
It almost recreates that notion of having to either remember or make notes of which way you came in, if you want to get out quickly....
I put my group through a maze a while back, where they were being chased by Barrow Wights. (2E game and 5th level characters so Wights were VERY scary!) when I flipped the map so that the whole map went to line of sight, they realised they would need to actually make their own map.
That session was a lot of fun. It ran pretty much in real time, so if they stopped to talk and discuss directions the monsters kept moving...
I give XP bonus to a player who serves as mapper, caller, or treasure tracker for a given session. It helps with motivation.
We also use Dungeon Scrawl, as shown in this video.
Started playing in college in 1978. Who ever was playing the thief was the designated map maker (part of the original rules gave thieves the ability to "read maps" like Bilbo in The Hobbit). We just usually used pieces of cardboard or Legos to mark out the walls and dimensions as the party was able to see them with the DM filling in details with verbal descriptions. Oh yeah, and lead figures, which I still have today...
I love that you never missed an opportunity to plug your book. I don't know if it was meant to be a running gag throughout the video but I found it pretty hilarious. I am always interested in learning more about Gary and the origins of D&D, so thank you for this. I'll definitely be backing your book Bob, and I wish you great success on your Kickstarter campaign.
I've enjoyed most aspects of being a DM, but far and away the most invested and engaged I've been has been when running the dungeon complex I built for the Dwarven Valley in Icewind Dale based on piecing together the small amount of material available in LoCS, RotFM, and a few companion pdfs
Sounds awesome! :)
Dahm, thats nice! Lets steal it for my homebrew rpg
I'm the DM for my group, we started in 5e. One of my players though played a little in 3.5. He's the mapper, when we need it. Typically, for a set piece combat, I'll draw out the room or the village. But for smaller dungeons or locations, I'll just describe it, and my player maps it for everyone. It flows well.
I LOVE the humor Gygax injected into his writing. The casual authorial tone is really fun, and I'm glad to see some writers, like Matt Colville, replicate it in their own way in modern books.
I have played games like that or incorporated it when the location is completely or partially unknown. If it's a know place like an old castle or a mine they might find maps from previous adventurers or the builder. I have had maps to present players when the layout is not complex and might be an outdoor location. Or parts of maps I give them as they clear areas. I started in 90 playing original red box D&D with my cousins and moved AD&D in high school.
Totally, finding maps is such a fun way to handle it! I need to use that more often.
@@BobWorldBuilder Thanks for the reply 😊 I have had found maps work out great because they can also be sources of conflict for the party if it's something they find in a dungeon it might be incomplete or missing some vital information. I also have a cartographer guild in my homebrew campaign that sends people out to map places and will sell maps as well as buy maps from players but the players would have to go to a major city where the guild houses are or find a traveling cartographer who has anything to sell or coin to buy with. So it's not a catch all solution for the players. You had also mentioned in your video sourcing material from the books we own. I have done that a lot over the years. I don't use or run modules or adventures from products I always do home brew stuff but I've definitely bought a ton of supplements from each edition I've played and used them for ideas and source material, especially when I'm doing something in a similar setting like a swamp or a city. Definitely a great video. I'm not much of a 5th Ed player and don't use it for my own game but I'll still be checking out your kickstarter when it goes live too.
Kingsfield II had an incredible way of handling this, there were three separate maps owned by different classes of folk. One was a pirate's map written a hundred years before the game began, so there were parts that were simply wrong or construction that was only starting, one was a miner's map, which was great for finding ways through tunnels and such, and the other was a magic map obtained late in the adventure, which revealed everything.
Talk about immersion!
Love the video as always.
I started with homes blue book basic and the truth is I've never really liked mega dungeons, monster condos, or spending half your game trying to make maps on graph paper. Thank you Gary for bringing us this game but thank you to the others who have moved us on to better adventure ideas. The only thing worse than some of Gary's early megadungeon ideas are the 4th edition tactical railroads with 4-5 scripted battle scenes.
I can't edit from this phone for some silly reason. The best part of Gary's dungeon world ideas are the early West March concepts. thankfully everyone seems to be rediscovering this. Cant play Tuesday? No problem, the rest of the party (or some other party) is raiding the dungeon and bringing back the loot.
Can't wait for Delve 😮 keep on keepin on Bobby
A timeless set of tips! One other tip that wasn't common in 1975-give the monsters something to do! I'm not such a proponent of realism that I think every dungeon needs a privy, but a bunch of goblins just waiting to attack the characters isn't as fun as ones that are having a feast, trying to tame an owlbear, or rehearsing a grating choral performance.
This is an awesome video. And I love the positive energy! Who need morning coffee when I have this! Thanks for sharing!
I have very fond memories of mapping dungeons out with my party! We played AD&D ~15 years ago, my dad gave us all of his books from when he was a kid, loads of fun. Needless to say, jumping from ad&d to 5e was quite the learning curve!
It's always fascinating to me to watch videos from younger/newer GMs/players of ttrpgs and their takes on the earlier days of our hobby. I sub to handful of these RUclipsrs including Bob. Sometimes I learn something new or get reminded of something I fell out of habit of doing. Other times the conversation of what they think was done or meant from back in the early days is entertaining.
Nice Bob. I love all the OG content. To this day, we still use some of those old school defined rules. Definitely have to have a mapper, a caller, etc. Great stuff.
The Dungeon of the Mad Mage still holds up as a really impressive example of multiple dungeon floors interacting with each other in meaningful ways.
I think the reason Gygax's floors each have a different theme is because the assumption at the time was that there would be a single Megadungeon in your campaign. So if he didn't have "Cypts and undead" as a theme in this dungeon, then there wouldn't be any undead themed area in the campaign. I think it would be fair to say that "floors" in Gary's dungeon weren't just staircases in the same building (although they were often literally stairs). They were more like descents into deeper and more dangerous realms - each time you descend you are finding whole new civilizations and economies - different tiny worlds you might even say - on each new level.
The Dwarven Mine! I remember an old Bob video about this location.
Thank you bob, your videos are always useful. This time especially this time, then I need to create a dungeon with an Obelisk strange magic happenings and the first signs for dimension travelling.
We did actually try out the "group cartographer" way of running dungeons in the Dragon Heist game i run and both me and the players loved it lol. Led to way more engaged players, as just traversing the floor turns into a little bit of a puzzle
In 2017 I game mastered my first dungeon, I had built a Sith Tomb in Force and Destiny and had my players map it out as it went along. It was an ambition dungeon, with 4 combats and 3 puzzle rooms, and I can still hear the disbelief when the cartographer, after they had run into about 6 dead ends, heard me say that they found some stairs and realized he had to make a second map
Really good advice Bob! I love the practical advice as designing dungeons is always a pain. Looking forward to the five room dungeon room.
Great video. We gave up on trying to make maps ourselves very quickly because they were always wrong.
Yes in the 80’s we mapped out the dungeons
Gary was a genius imho
It IS AN ARTFORM! Thank you. This is so good, Bob. I sometimes feel like there are a lot of tools out there that actually keep people from putting their heart and soul into one night worth of creativity for their friends. While I love modules and see the importance in prep and stress relief, I CANNOT BEGIN to describe the feeling of running even a few hours worth of something you have created yourself.
Yep, mapped dungeons this way... starting back in '76. :)
Bob! Luv ya young fella! We played in late 70s, started DMing in early 80s. And yes we had a mapper. 😂
Our group's Kickstarter for next yr has a 40 room "mini-mega" were the inhabitants have remodeled an ancient tomb. And yes, our playtesters have a mapper. Why? Because the map they were given, isn't quite right. 😉
I'm so pumped for Delve ! I've been making a campaign for some time around a huge multi faceted and multi terrain dungeon and a kind of facility that trains people how to navigate it correctly and it's literally the Perfect supplement for it 🤟🏼
Early 80's, we had one player mapping. We also had a "Party Leader" who had the final say when the DM asked "What is the party doing" not mamby pamby discussion about what everyone wanted to do... If the party leader said we're going left... The party went left. 😅
When I started in 1985 I was usually a cartographer and continued that through the mid to late 1990's. When I started playing again in the mid 2000's I usually tried to map some, but not to the same level... but now my group is back to locations that require more careful mapping
I love ALL Bob World Builder videos!
Gygax unfairly gets a lot of crap from the community. He knew how to entertain and how to challenge!
I started playing back in 1984, and yes, there was always at least one person mapping as we went along. In fact, there was a mapper for indoor sessions and a different mapper for the outdoor sessions. I am getting back into playing after many years being away from it, and though I am no luddite in any sense if the word I still find myself reaching for the graph paper to work things out in advance.
This, like all of BobWorldBuilder's content, was a great video.
A reminder that "the dungeon" at that time was usually a singular location. Much like the "tower" systems in a lot of modern video games where you get one long crawl only differentiated by the floor you are on. You wear a path in the rocks between town and the dungeon entrance going back and forth so much. It wasn't until story telling and plots came out of the dungeons that we started getting true campaigns with many locations to explore.
I cannot wait to see Delve!
We played the Tomb of the Nine Gods from Tomb of Annihilation with a mapper. It was done more like a point-crawl style (lacking exact measurements, but focusing on routes and connections). It made that discovery and puzzle part a blast.
as someone who comes from the Red Book basically all we did really were dungeons. I don't remember ever as a player mapping out as we went. WE just had the DM describing things as we went, Look forward to your book.
Best advice I can give for anyone looking to make a dungeon: Pick up the Tome of Adventure Design Revised. It is built around a concept that you have rooms grouped into areas that share construction, a theme, and some interconnectedness, that then gives way to one or two chokepoints connecting it to another area. Each area can house different themes, types of monsters, etc, or you can string a couple together to represent a larger faction within the dungeon. These can then be contained within one level, or span multiple level. Each area will have different themes and designs, making it stand out, and the memory that only certain ones will contain entrances to lower levels is particularly good. Of course, this is most useful for large dungeons, but works for smaller dungeons as well. Ever since picking it up, I've felt more coherent in my dungeon design. Think of rooms like rooms, areas like houses, and levels like neighborhoods or sections of a town connected together by a couple streets (main passages connecting areas)
Began with 1991 Black Box. DM described to a cartographer or showed them sections of the map. I recall all examples giving exact ft measurements, so the idea of giving approximate dimensions for speed or older cavern levels - and much later web-node abstract directions - was something I learned later.
I was a player in a game that used a mapper in I wanna say 2015 or so? GM just described the rooms and corridors and we were in charge of keeping as accurate a map as we could. It made the experience extremely tedious, and I tuned out almost immediately. I love dungeon crawls but I learned very quickly I didn't like having to go back and forth with the GM trying to figure out exactly how long this corridor was and at what exact points it splits in different directions.
The thing I loved about EGG from the first time I read the AD&D PHB was his writing. The same was true of the DMG, only moreso. Two of the most essential books on rpg's I've ever read, and not just because they were seminal. That was around 1985, and the group I played with was pretty traditional, tho we were well beyond the giant dungeon era. And the players mapped, tho we took it fairly easy. But when we played the original Ravenloft module, since it used an isometric mapping system, the DM traced it out for us room by room, which worked really well in that situation. To us, mapping was an essential part of the experience, but we didn't feel the need to get too technical or picky about it. But come to think of it, most of those games didn't take place in "dungeons," so we did very little mapping overall. When I played 3e in the early 00's, we didn't go in one at all, and we didn't do any mapping.
Great video! My first dungeon experience was in 1981, as I recall, and we did have a cartographer. It was a huge, multi-level dungeon the DM had mapped out on tiny 1mm graph paper and stacked in a 3-ring binder. Maybe only one page was a dungeon? I don't know because we weren't ever permitted to see it. But it was a blast every game session and nobody ever complained that it was a slog or any of the other ADHD derogatory terms for a mega dungeon. I loved it and I was hooked forever. Big dungeon with a nearby town and we hardly cared about the rest of the world. Thanks for this. I love all Bob World Builder videos!
I think the reason Gygax called out having each dungeon level bear a distinct theme was so that players could have an idea of when they wandered into another level (via sneaky slopes), or determine which level they’ve ended up on (after pits or teleport traps). If you flee a swarm of goblins through a series of up-and-down staircases and suddenly everything’s on fire, you know to tread lightly! And you get new decision points: “Okay, the only exit we know of is back through the goblin horde. Do we chance it, or do we risk poking around on this level to find another way up?”
Hot tip on mixed critter dungeons... these dungeons are extremely important and valuable locations for their denizens so competition would occur for dominance over any such location... what you get are
DUNGEONS AT WAR! Your party has come apon ruins or a dungeon being fought over by two or more factions. Goblins trying to clear out some bears and pixies, or two vying tribes of kobolds who've had enough of each other, or a newly discovered hole in the ground with many types of beasts trying to lay claim.
Back in my day LOL, (1981) we did have one party member who had to play cartographer, it was almost like listening to a very slow burn game of Battleship.
I started DMing, then being a player, in the mid-1980s. And yes, we used the cartographer, and yes, that was quite often myself. In some of the groups then the central thing was that if it wasn't mapped we didn't remember how to traverse it, aka maps or it didn't happen. Also useful when certain players added annotations that threw all shades of shade on the other characters....
I really hope you read this.
Keith Parkinson's The North Watch was so influential to me, its what I built my whole setting around, even though it's not reflective of it anymore. Seeing it hanging in cloth on your wall is super cool, the influences that bind us eh?
Once I started world building I couldn't stop. I understand that the players will never experience it all but it's just so much fun!
When I first started playing starting in the late 80s and going through to the mid 90s we always had a player who was assigned to do the mapping - and it was pretty much obligatory at the end of the adventure that we would comparing our map against the one printed in the module and either praise a job well done or have a good laugh if it was totally botched. Irregular curved passages and odd shaped rooms were the bane of the map keeper's existence - good times.
First time I played our DM had us drawing the map as well, and that was around 2018. It gave us a little more responsibility (and realism) having to keep track ourselves, definitely fun.
I see someone else noted starting with Holmes in 77 and moving into AD&D, etc. Same here. We also had a mapper. Also played with a party caller sometimes.
When I want DMing for them, I was the group cartographer in our group. We played 1977-1983. It was primitive but fun. And DMing back in the day took forever….i filled notebooks and wore out my AD&D DMG and MM.
I was a kid and played my first game in 1977 with a xeroxed copy of the rules. I ran all four characters (on index cards) and was, naturally, the mapper as well.
I think the level of a dungeon having a central theme vs the dungeon as a whole having a central theme is a 'mega dungeon the party keeps coming back to' vs 'multiple dungeons that the party goes to sequentially' thing... Which you kind of go into with your guidelines of what feels reasonable for you with how many rooms before you have a theme change.
I have made a play mat that took up most of the table I play on. It is 36 inches by 48 inches. I use dry erase markers to draw the dungeon as the players explore it. So there was no need to map the dungeon.
I planned dungeons on graph paper so each level fit on the play mat. I ended up with a lot of start to finish dungeons that had to be cleared in a linear path.
Eventually I had more dynamic dungeons that had multiple paths. I also started doing many single level dungeons.
Started in AD&D 1e in the 80’s (but played 2e much more often by the 90’s).
We definitely had a mapper, though it wasn’t always strictly necessary because we didn’t play the “mega-dungeons”.
thx, that was a great video!
We played with a mapper in the 80's and 90's. I always found it to be a lot of fun. It was like a game of broken telephone. Your map may or may not actually end up resembling the original DM map. It adds to the mystery of exploration. More recent groups seem to rely on the DM drawing everything out on a battle mat or using 3d terrain, which kind of makes mapping pointless. It works better with theatre of the mind games.
I'm running OSE with a mix of 5E players and players who are new to RPGs. We tried using a 'mapper' in our first dungeon, but the players quickly realized they were just confused as to what was where, and we gave up on the idea. I spent so much time re-explaining the layout of the cavern that drawing it would have taken less time. We're going to go back to some version of drawn maps with 'fog of war' as you explore.
A few years ago, during an early bit of curse of strahd, my dm didn't want to make a fog of war so I opted to make a map with the reasoning of as a warforged (who was more robot than creature in the way I played it) I would be able to create an internal map for myself (like a roomba). It really slowed down the progression I would like to add
I have been the cartagrapher and scribe in various campaigns during the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, 2010s, and even just a few years ago.
I miss being the cartographer! I've been placing since the mid 90s and I still draw out most dungeons and get a little disanointed when they are reveled. It was a great minigame
I thought of a challenging treat that could be used as either a One-Shot, or a Side-Quest for players to either test a character/party of... Or a possible way to challenge them if they wanted something BIG like a magical weapon or access to a spell to revive a beloved NPC or PC. It was intended to be very difficult but never impossible, and again designed to both test a party and their capabilities as a group (Or an individual attempting to get as far as possible), as well as having a unique reward at the end that might not always be acquired.
However the group finds it in a campaign as a side-dungeon... there is a "Buy-In" price to protect the players from perma-death IN the dungeon only. The price is there to both replenish the magical items that allow the players to delve the dungeon (Gauntlet technically) so they can keep providing this service to adventurers, and to sort of deter them from mindlessly jumping in without noting that it is not a simple murder-hobo dungeon and it will be a true challenge... But the rewards are intended to be worth the entry-fees.
I literally call it "The Gauntlet" or "The Training Grounds" was a second idea. Never have sadly finished it, but also had a vague idea to make it change every time so it was never the same, in addition to multiple paths one could take, like one could be a skill check or puzzle... or another path could have a Gelatinous Cube or two that the players may get surrounded by in the narrow corridors. And the whole setup is half magical construct, and half natural terrain (Tunnels and hallways, connecting to caverns and carved ruins, etc) and basically looks like an old and forgotten place something once lived in but was lost more or less to time. (Part of the idea is that this place can potentially move, and it may be an entity, or a demi-plane used to hide magical items until said items needed to be used in the world again. Thus, the whole plane may be its own living entity.)
Finally in my mindscape: It's run by a few estranged Kobolds and Goblins that sort of got stuck here and liked it enough to more or less keep it company and help adventurers prepare, warning them of the difficulties ahead, but not trying to stop them necessarily. They may or may not actually add traps and puzzles to the Dungeon so that it is not too easy to traverse.
not sure when you turned into an Oldschool guy but I'm here for it. delving into the deep lore of DND history. Love your videos bro.
Also i WILL be buying the shadowdark version of delve.
Started in the 80's and we had a mapper. At this time it was on standard graph paper you would use in math class. However once it became obvious the mapping part was taking too much time and effort we changed to the DM drawing the map.
I started in the 80s with Mentzer's Basic red box. That set taught you how to play and map the dungeon in the first several pages. To me, mapping isn't a mini-game. It is the game.
When I first started playing, we did have a cartographer (oddly, it was usually the player playing the thief), and this was back in the 80s. When I started being the DM, I sometimes would take on this role, drawing out the map for the PCs as they explored, or a mix of me mapping and them mapping based on my descriptions, depending on what the room looked like, or if something specific was supposed to happen there (like in Keep on the Borderlands Minotaur cave). Since then, I've gotten used to playing online, or using mini's and battle maps, and this has changed how I do things.
I feel like the breakdown of the levels in Greyhawk could be a worthwhile lesson in and of itsself.
Level 1: A maze - the players are new, and this is a safe way to figure out the basics.
Level 2, a fountain of snakes and Nixie pool, are stated more as though it is a puzzle - things to interact with. Deadly, maybe. But not combat.
Level 4 has direct combat with the undead, and Level 5 combines gargoyle combat alongside the mysterious fire fountain.
It's not until 8-10 that a multi-level through line is attempted.
Level 11 is a large boss on a single level, and then 12 is multiple boss-level enemies.
Lessons to be taken would be: Teach the game in safety, show new concepts in isolation, layer them, build in complexity, and then focus on a finale.
I've had a cartographer a couple of times, but I wasn't relying solely on TotM for those games. They were copying what was on the battle mats so they could understand a much larger dungeon. This happened as recently as 2019.
I started playing in the late 90's and loved making maps.
I also loved playing dungeon crawl games that don't automap anything and would make my own maps.
I sadly miss this about D&D as it is what you say, this type of gameplay in D&D has almost vanished.
It was also more important back then as crawling in the dungeon was a more deadly endeavor and now that characters are more akin to super heroes, the need to know where you are in the dungeon and to be able to get out to safely has also disappeared.
Yep, we mapped in "79 and 80's. And I had a player who liked to map in the 2010"s
As a DM I draw the player map as they go. This is done for time-saving purposes, since just copying rooms one at a time from my master map is the fastest way to do this. I also like repurposing maps from the Internet, finding a map that "feels right" and just changing what's in each room to suit my needs. Most such maps I find with an image search, so the key as to what was originally in all the rooms isn't even available to me, nor do I need it.
The group that taught me had two cartographers working in tandem. It was 2e and they were both experienced, and I think they were concerned with us all getting through the dungeon safely our first time. It was only 2013!
I don't even remember how much I had players (meaning, my sister) do mapping in the 80s, though I was a kid and tended to be fast a loose with the game in general. I tried pushing mapping in my new campaign, which started in 2021, but no one was that hard core so it fell be the way side in favor of just assuming a map had been drawn and that characters remembered how to get back to previously visited locations.
I find themes work well as zones, which may be part of a level, or may extend through several levels, at least for what some people now call a megadungeon.
For a small dungeon (say, up to 30 rooms), I don't see much point as it is typically finished in one session, while what I see as a standard dungeon (say 40-100 rooms) is neither big enough to worry about it too much nor small enough to shy away from themed areas if you have cool ideas.
I suspect that one of the reasons people find being a DM so hard is that they don't have the experience of designing their own dungeons/adventures. Having to do it all yourself actually teaches you things like how to balance encounters, what kinds of traps and tricks work, etc. So, I absolutely agree with you that while we don't *have* to abandon all the automated tools, forcing yourself only to run what you are able to produce on your own (e.g. writing out room keys by hand, writing out your own monster summary stats or trap mechanics, etc.) *by hand*, with pen, pencil, and paper, you can push through the anxiety/mystery about dungeon design. You will also run all encounters much better when *you* decided what is there, what happens when you pull the lever, how to open the secret door, etc.
Plus, DMs can consult Gygax's essay, or your upcoming Delve, for inspiration!
While I only started playing in the late 90s, we always used a cartographer. I even like to do it now, as a player I map out dungeons, or as a DM give the players opertunities and the general info needed to map it themselves. I like using the Cartography tools, and the better the roll, the more info the DM describes/help correct what's drawn.
Started with Holmes c. 1980 and absolutely had a mapper. And when I play 5e I still want a mapper (it does slow things down a bit, but add so much flavor and feel to the experience that it is worth it - "We haven't explored where this hallway leads to, we need should double back to get over there...")
DM-ing for 30+ years ~92 to present. We always have a player mapping. It is of course optional to map but not doing so will leave the characters lost and, over time, dead. We have always run D&D like "survival horror" with strict management of time, resources and mapping. We feel that big "pre writen/planned" stories or plots just get corny so we prefer exploration with smaller more organic plots that grow from play. Over the decades i have written almost a hundred pages of random tables that we use regularly to provide me as a DM with ideas and inspiration during play.
The players set their own goals and write their own stories.
Characters die all the time. Being high level is an accomplishment not because of "time played" but "dangers survived".
1980s with 1st edition, then 1990s with 2nd edition. I was the cartographer at first ('80s), then when I met my soon-to-be husband, he was the cartographer when he was a PC, and his sister or another player was the cartographer when he was the DM.
Yes, we used a cart tougher .. We drew maps. 1980-1986? After a while, I just started photocopying the map and sharpie out the secret doors, etc. Mostly due to the fact of my describing rooms was very poor.
One GRIPE with D&D beyond. Some their player maps still show secret information.
Regarding 04:32. Sure, different themed levels in a dungeon can work. It did for Gary and his Castle Greyhawk.The players might not know the secret as to why, but as long as the DM does that's all that counts.