Empathy in The Last of Us
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- The ending of The Last of Us Part One is a masterpiece, and on this, almost everyone agrees. It has only occurred to me now, some several months after finishing Part II, that the great argument of empathy reveals more about people’s misunderstandings of the first game than it does about their misunderstandings of the second. I’m Dan aka Wolf, and we’re about to have a concerning conversation about Empathy, or the lack thereof.
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• Moth Symbolism in The ...
English Captions generously provided by PatientElijah
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This is a perfect explanation for this series, people didn't like playing as abby cause she killed Joel but would feel the same way if we played as joel/ellie in the second after playing as the "bad guys" in the first one
Right on, Matt. It's all about putting ourselves in someone else's shoes as well as being able to understand our ambivalent emotions. It's perfectly okay to feel two conflicting emotions about a thing at the same time, and it's actually very natural, but society teaches us to be at war with this inherent truth and to choose one over the other at the cost of being honest with the Self and the Outer.
In an alternate universe, ''YOU MEAN I DON'T EVEN GET THE CHANCE TO TORTURE JOEL? WHY ISN'T IT INTERACTIVE, I WANT TO ACTIVELY TORTURE JOEL FOR KILLING ABBY'S DAD. I waited 7 years for this, naughty dog. What a letdown, terrible writing''.
@@janvukovic8717 what "dirty tricks" did they use, it was obvious in the trailers that joel was gonna die and that we were gonna play as abby. If they didn't want us to play as they wouldn't have made a whole trailer just for her and and another trailer about ellie finding her group killing Joel. I'm not saying you can't have your opinion you can hate the game all want. Another thing is that pretty much everyone knew that joel was gonna die before many trailers were even released. Like the reveal trailer from back in 2016 it was so obvious that joel dies cause he's coming out of the light and the other trailer where she's talking to Tommy and they're all beat up from their encounter with Abby and all those people who said that he was going to die and they were gonna be ok with him dying all immediately changed their sins once it actually happened. And also they can't make a while different story with the same two characters from the first one without people saying it's exactly like the first one with different graphics. If they were to make the second one with just Joel and Ellie what would the story be since they killed all the Fireflies and she can't be turned into the cure anymore
@@janvukovic8717 yeah but here's the thing Neil Druckman said that this game was gonna take place 5 years after the first one not right where the first one too place. The reason why we played as abby is because they wanted us to understand her past and try to make her feel like she isn't the bad guy even though she killed Joel. I'll admit at first I didn't like her but after playing her part I understood her and everything she wanted to do. The reason Joel died do early is because they wanted to set the tone for what the game is gonna be like. I'll admit I do like your idea but if that happened people weren't gonna like that either cause it's not what the last of us is about, it's about killing infected and other enemies not just spending time with people for hours without killing many people so either way people would've been mad. If they do make a part 3 I want it to have a story like the first one (even though I liked the second just as much) and the gameplay of the second one
@@janvukovic8717 I wish people were more like you open minded and willing to talk about the game not just say it's the worst game ever made end of story. People like you are what we need in that gaming community, willing to talk about the games they don't necessarily like with the people who do. And same I wish we could have played a little bit more with Joel and Ellie together. I guess they wanted the beginning like the first one, you play as a character only for that person to die early on in the story and I hope if there is a third one we don't start with ellie cause that only means she will die early on. I liked both Abby and Ellie I understood both of their stories
"The whole 'Why are you trying to force me to like Abby?' argument is a strange moral wrangling. If you couldn't see, in 2013, when you're running down the halls of St. Mary's and making them run red with blood, that Joel was no angel, that tells you more about your own bias than any game ever could." Couldn't have said it better. Absolutely phenomenal analysis, I'm binging all of your videos :)
A true naughty dog fan and someone who is actually capable of understanding deep things. Subscribed.
Thank you, TanWam, and welcome to the channel!
No need for gatekeeping
I hate that people that made reviews on this game, and they don’t even understand it😂
@@shannon.t Hating people won't get you anywhere... You did play the game right?
I played unchartered as well but it's not as good as the last of us imo
Moral of the story: *Arthur voice* “Revenge is a fools game”
That's not the point of the last of us 2, and that joke is overdone to death. Time for new material.
@@michaelelmes2135 You good?
@@michaelelmes2135 shut up
@@michaelelmes2135 somebody had to say it, thank you.
I’m just glad neither Ellie or Abbie died
Let's not forget that in TLOU1 when Joel and Ellie got ambushed. The scene @3:47. Joel mentioned he knew that the man they ran over was a bait for an ambush and he has done the same thing before. That part was first insight into how dark Joel's past was.
Joel's not a hero; he's a survivor.
Dude! Thank you! I’m so tired of hearing “they killed Joel I’m not gonna play” or “that game sucks they killed Joel”
Awesome man, you’ve done it again👍”folks can’t see past themselves.”
Thank you, Moolah!
@@WolfofThorns no problem Im here for the long haul.
@@trapped_monkey you’re small minded bruh, this game is real life, and life doesn’t always go the way we plan and it damn sure isn’t sunshine and rainbows. No one is invincible, go play a kids game for a happy ending.
@@trapped_monkey that was his opinion....🙂
@@s.b6688 and that was just his opinion...🙂
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius.
Perception is everything. We feel the way we do about Joel and Ellie because we played as them. And if we had played as Abby and her father, we would have those same feelings.
Well said, Cowboy. 🤠
I would have been on Abbys side If it had been the other way around.. But I wouldn't have supported what she did to Joel, it was brutal and unnessesairy.. Joel and Tommy help her survive and without even a single doubt she brutally kills Joel.. She doesn't even tell him who she is or why she's doing it.. I can't get behind that..
The Walking Dead reference:
It's similar to people just accepting the brutal way Negan killed Glenn and Abraham.. I can't get behind that no matter who does it.. I actually see a lot of parallels between TLOU and TWD 😊
@@TrineMortensen I would’ve understood Abby more if the game started off with young Abby in the beginning as it’s supposed to be chronological
@@youin24years but that would defeat the purpose. The whole point is that for the 1st half of the game they want you to hate Abby as much as Ellie does. They want you to be feeling the same emotions as the character you are playing. Then when the tables are flipped and you see Abby's story they want you to have that "oh wait. This is a real person with real motivations. They're not just some supervillain" moment. The whole idea behind the structure of the story is to test and challenge your empathy as a player. It's like the game is holding up one big mirror to the players, forcing them to take a deeper look at their own prejudices and biases.
@@SomeBuddyElse03 no, we wouldn't. at least i wouldn't like abby and her father if we played with them in pt1. first of all, the whole idea that we like someone or not solely based on how well we know them is obviously wrong. if that was true married guys wouldn't ever divorce. of course that's not how things work- it's normal for people to part ways, or not like each other, exactly because they know each other pretty well. so, obviously, the perspective is important, but it's not the major factor here to form our opinion, but rather the good old "what they did and what we think about it" evaluation we constantly make when thinking of others.
and here it comes the big question- is it acceptable what the fireflies did in pt1? let's summarize the situation they found themselves in at the end of the first game (but obviously to keep the chronological order of events would have to take into consideration parts of pt2 as well). they finally got the girl they were looking for, that medical miracle the good doctor was praying for for more than 20 years. they knew ellie would do anything to help them. marlene knew it (as she told joel) and if she didn't share that with the doctor that's on her. if the good doctor didn't bother to ask what ellie would want- that's on him. also they knew joel cared deeply about the girl. marlene told that to the doctor. and finally, abby was there when the decision about ellie was made, she heard the conversation between marlene and her father, so they all 3 knew all mentioned above. what was their decision (and by "them" I mean abby as well because she joyfully approved her father's decision)?
they collectively agreed to kill ellie a few minutes after she entered the building. without trying to take her consent (which they knew they would get), without taking into consideration the pain they are deliberately and unnecessarily causing to joel, without giving ellie a chance to talk with joel and to discuss the situation with him. that's child murder, ok? no doubts about it. was it needed? no, it was not! ellie would want this and she would agree to sacrifice herself. AND THEY KNEW IT! then, she could inform joel that's her decision. see the potential here for a peaceful end? i do. because there is a huge difference between that to wake up with a brain concussion only to learn that in a few minutes the girl you love as a daughter would be killed (not to mention the gun pointed at your back) and to hear it from her that's what she wanted. if they took ellie's consent, let her reason with joel, and take their goodbye, they would still have their vaccine and, as a bonus, most likely would part ways with joel peacefully. so, to answer the question above- NO, IT WAS NOT NEEDED TO MURDER HER, NOR TO THREATEN JOEL.
the fireflies had two options- to take ellie's consent and discuss this with her and joel as normal human beings or to murder a child and flash a gun to 'her father' to scare him away. and again, there is nothing to support the second option- either way, they would get their vaccine. and yet they decided to kill her. why? because they were shitty people. that's why. taking her consent and making things easier for Joel was simply a waste of time according to the ''good doctor'. and again, that's really funny, because when you have waited for 20 years, what another week or even month would change? what was the rush for?
even if I played the whole pt1 from their perspective i couldn't go with that decision and still would not side with them. and i would still be fine with what joel did! he saved "his daughter" (as he felt it) from being killed. he didn't go to salt lake city to kill a bunch of people, no- he was provoked! he was acting in self-defense while trying to stop a child murder. perfectly reasonable behavior that I could understand, even more- to feel sympathy for him. what would you do if someone told you they are going to kill your daughter? sit on your hands? and by the way, if they gave ellie the chance to talk with him and he still decided to do what he did, THEN he would be the villain. because he would have to kidnap her against her will while forcing their way out. imagine the picture- she would be kicking and screaming while he is dragging her out, killing people in the process. i wonder how that little episode would affect their relations? how could he possibly keep her with him after doing something like that? would he keep her tied up and locked somewhere? does any of this sound to you as something joel would do? i would say no. if he kidnapped her that would have exposed him not just as a traumatized person (after the loss of his real daughter), but as a maniac. but that's not the story naughty dog gave us, isn't it? so as far as i know, the real villains here are marlene, the good doctor, and of course, the little innocent abby who was just joyfully cheering for her daddy while he was preparing to murder a child. what a lovely bunch of creeps those fuckers are.
in conclusion, i would say that i didn't like the fireflies in pt1 and pt2 didn't change a thing for me.
I really love these small bite sized videos. You get straight to the point and fast. Thanks for this!
Thank you. It's my pleasure!
I will admit, the only reason I didn’t see any wrong for what Joel did in that hospital in the first game is because I was getting killed a lot and I wasn’t worried about that at the moment 😂
Goddamn that level was hard haha
@@slidingcatch seriously!! It took months of multiplayer experience for me to go back and fully enjoy it as a “fun” level
The story pushing you to do that and then teach you a lesson about how the thing they forced you to do was bad 😅🤣🤣
@@MM-ne2cl some people figured that out playing as Joel in the first game. The first game was to show how easy it is to do something we would normally consider terrible, and when put in those shoes, suddenly that terrible thing is easy to commit, given the circumstances.
@@MM-ne2cl I actually really disliked Owen, for one particular thing: He cheats on his pregnant girlfriend! Seriously not cool, dude! (I also find it funny how the haters are all "hewww, sex scene, gross", but so few talks about the actual infidelity that comes with it. But that's another story). But he's certainly not a villain or anything, I just feel bad for Meg there.
People are so unbelievably hypocritical and ignorant with this game, if the story stuff didn't leak i guarantee people would've been happier to experience it for themselves.
@Chad bad Abby is a shitty 1 dimensional character with no growth whatsoever, but the game is great
@Chad bad bro she didnt save Yara and Lev out of being a good person, she admitted herself that it was cuz of guilt. she was gonna slit Dina's throat knowing she was pregnant to make a point to Ellie until Lev saw her and told her to stop. Abby is a monster and if Lev wasn't there she would have slit Dina's throat and killed Ellie. also explain her leaving Mel and Owen to die after Tommy attacked her. everything she does that is good, is stemmed from her guilt. like im not trying to be rude but you're not helping me understand how you like her.
@@jhoward12 the fact you can confidently proclaim one of the games most interesting characters, with a decent arc as "1 dimensional"
Proves you dont know what you're talking about, and are probably just another absurd hater that didnt give Abby the time of day out of childish spite.
Totally agreed
@@jhoward12 That seems like a wildly simplistic take, dawg, what’s her one dimension? What’s the one sole description that captures absolutely everything about her character?
You are awesome, I really appreciate your work here. Thank you for such greatness and quality.
Man, thanks for the love, Fernando! I'm really glad you're digging the content.
love your work dude, it's always refreshing to find a youtube channel that doesn't rely on hate and controversy to get views, but smart arguments and deep insights about the subject, you sir just won another sub and I hope your channel blows up soon, you deserve it!
Thank you, Ruben. That means a lot. 🤠
Bro, this is exactly what I've been feeling ever since I was emotionally destroyed by the game. I've been struggling to write out my thoughts with any clarity or concision, and then I stumble upon this video where you have expressed almost exactly what I was trying to.
The way this game handles conflict is next level, and processing it requires a level of emotional maturity that the average person does not have, including me at first. I was as outraged as everyone else when the game flipped to Abby's perspective. It was so fucking jarring. I had to stop and come back later when I was cooled off, and I'm so glad I did. Abby's story hit me every bit as hard as Ellie's after that, and the final fight had me weeping.
Playing this game felt like going through a trauma IRL.
Well said.
I feel you, Ken, and I love that we're getting to experience this beautiful gaming renaissance where video games have snuck up on us as the highest form of human storytelling, which I go into here: ruclips.net/video/97P7i05kCxI/видео.html
Really? I thought it was cool to play as Abby on my first playthrough
Excellent concise video that i think gets to the heart of the TLOU2 controversy; Lack of empathy but persoanlly i see that as an issue driven from a society that places the profit motive, not people at the heart of everything. And that wont change very much without a revolution
Thank you, William! And, while you may be right, I think we are seeing that revolution right now with the amazing storytelling medium that video games (interactive media) has become! We can only go up from here, my man. And I suspect that, in the long run, video games have their own part to play in helping us heal the divide within the Great Human Soul.
Hey, guys, thank you so much for the love and support! If you are really digging my content, please consider checking me out on Twitch where I stream every day: www.twitch.tv/wolf_of_thorns Once again, thank you all for being a part of my channel and this evolving experience! 🤠❤🤠
Super excellent point! Take an objective stance on the storyline and you can suddenly notice how the only thing keeping the player glued to Joel is our bias towards his story as he is the playable protagonist of the first game. Without that - if the game is reframed from another character's perspective - Joel looks like a stark raving madman
Absolutely! Don't get me wrong. I love Joel and he still remains probably my favorite character in the series. But, yes, from a certain point of view, he was the monster at the end of a bad dream for the poor souls protecting that hospital.
Oh I can totally see that. I own the 1st game but have never actually played it all the way through. That might be a shock to some people. But the beginning of that game alone is enough to make you love Joel. The intro is heart wrenching. After something like that, it is admittedly difficult to emotionally attach to his opposition when you know what Elie represents to him.
@@WolfofThorns let's get this straight. based on what we saw from joel in both games, do you honestly believe that if the fireflies allowed ellie to speak for herself instead of trying to operate her without taking her consent (i.e. trying to murder her) joel would still react the same way he did? what if they allowed her to tell him in the face that she wanted to have the operation? are you implying he would drag her out using force (basically kidnapping her), killing everyone standing on his way, and then he would keep her locked somewhere (because, obviously, after such a stunt she would want to run away for him), so that he could keep the illusion of having a daughter alive? is that what joel's true colors are according to you?
or you are implying that he is a monster and madman because he prevented a child murder?
at what moment he acted like a "madman"? really curious to know.
Wow, my feelings exactly, but you put it in a video. Many fans would disagree and yes you are absolutely right about the bias as I too felt the same way....until....I got to see what Abby had to go through. She actually has lost more than her counterpart Ellie, and although, I am still Team Ellie all the way, I can't look past playing as Abby and see what she had to go through as well. Seeing the dissonance between fans is incredible which shows the impact ND can have with the reactions from the people playing the game. As much as we love Joel's character, if you can't see past the loving father he was for the savage he has become, then that is bias. The harsh post-apocalyptic world has also dealt him "sh**ty" cards which made him do what he did for the loss of his own daughter...completely understand. However, the cycle of violence did not end since Abby witnessed her father laying on the floor dead. As a child, son or daughter, you too, would be enraged by this and would want justice. But looking at Abby, she spared Ellie and Tommy twice. She spared Dina, but Ellie did not do the same for her. She killed practically everyone in Abby's circle with the exception of Manny which Tommy had the honor of killing him, as well as, Yara, which WLF had the honor of killing her. All Abby had left was Lev and the hope of rejoining the Fireflies. Ellie still has Tommy and the entire settlement of Jackson to go home to as stated in a letter left by Jesse's mom at the farm during the temporary "happy ending" of P2 (considering that's Ellie's destination at the credits scene). In order to get the best experience from this game, one has to put bias aside, if not, the second part of P2 would be a nightmare to play as.
This here. Well said, too!
@J A - I wanna add in a bit more. U kind of grouped everything together so I'll try to go one by one. Abby being angry is completely understandable. However i don't think abby spared Dina, more like Lev made Abby stop. U could argue Abby spared Ellie and Tommy the first time around but you can't deny Owen played a huge part in that. And obviously Ellie wouldn't spare Abby. Abby just killed Joel. It's understandable that Ellie would go after Abby.
Joel killing the doctor to save Ellie is understandable. Abby wanting revenge is also understandable. And naturally Ellie is gonna want revenge as well for the death of Joel. For me this game shows that everyone lost, everyone is hurt and everyone is broken.
On the issue of who lost more is difficult. Sometimes numbers aren't everything and a lot of times it comes down to who you lost that impacts you more and how you, yourself handle that pain. This game makes you wonder about alot of things.
I was never much of an English major so i apologize.
@@clemssss - Well said, and you articulated your thoughts nicely.
@@clemssss well said in the first paragraph. Owen and Lev did play a big part in which, I should have gave them more credit. However, Abby listened regardless of how she felt at the time. Although Joel was a core character, whom we all thought would be playing as, it was not the case with this game. I do not like saying I wish this or wish that because the game got more out of us than meets the eye since I am still talking about this and I finished it three weeks ago, but if Ellie was in Joel's place and we played as Joel going after Abby, he would have killed Abby and there would be no reason to have a P3, maybe a DLC where he and Tommy play as a prequel while they were hunters. If they made a game with an open world like Days Gone for that theme, it might be good, but for the most part, we already know the outcome of that story. I don't need to see Joel and Tommy being savage badasses because I already know they are savage badasses and would not make for a very good story with ND standards. Plus, in my opinion, whether I am right or wrong, the idea of Ellie dying will anger me and having a P3 without Ellie is pointless.
@@JA-uz2uk The one thing i didn't like about Joels death was that it was too early. From a story perspective, it actually undermines the entire story arc. I was hoping they expand on Ellie and Joel's relationship a bit more. In the end, you are left with Ellie simply getting revenge and abby running around doing side quests. Story wise i give a 3/10. I understand the meaning and symbolism they were going with but the entire game just felt like the standard revenge narrative. I mean, i seen this a million times.
The problem with abby's part is that they never gave u the opportunity to be fully engaged with her. With Joel u were able to watch him and Ellie grow together throughout part 1. That way you were engaged. With Abby i feel like the way they setup her story structure, they would have to force you like to like her.
This person actually explains it alot better than i do. ruclips.net/video/MvTFF-E5wkw/видео.html
Tlou 2 is a game about Ellie losing her self because of Joel's death. (Almost losing her self because she left Abby to go in the end). Because she does terrible things, things even worst than Joel did to save her. Joel's Song: IF I WERE TO LOSE YOU , I WOULD SURELY LOSE MY SELF .That song is amazing cause it fits both ways. Both characters made mistakes for each other.
Joel made mistakes for Ellie {The Last Of Us}
Ellie made mistakes for Joel {The Last Of Us Part 2}
I call this a masterpiece .
Nah, Joel did more fucked up things than Ellie. Abby on the other hand is a monster
@@jadenraywilliams8586 Sure pal. Abby lets Ellie go twice and Ellie kills her friends and points a knife at an unarmed, barely conscious kid to get Abby to fight her. I love both Ellie and Joel but both did fucked up stuff. If you're saying Abby's a monster you're saying Ellie and Joel are monsters too.
I think people should watch a documentary called “Beyond Right and Wrong”, I think it'll shed a different light on Part 2
You explained it perfectly. I have tried to explain this to several people who used exactly the same argument of ND being sht for making them play as Abby :( Precisely, I loved this second game more than the first one (which I also loved) because it gets deeper, it shows so much more humanity as you can see the different perspectives and it forces you to play things you dont want to play (like when Abby and Ellie fight twice and both times I was begging that they didn't kill each other and just stopped) and see the ugly side of the characters as they are not your usual perfect hero with no flaws and 0 selfish decisions.
I thought the end especially was such a masterpiece (if you analyze it closely, truly everything about it it's so well done when talking about the emotions of the characters, the humanity in them, etc) because it is brutal. Not only in a gore and fight level sense, but in an emotional sense as well. I was so heartbroken having to hurt Abby, who looked also so broken, and play as a destroyed Ellie. The sadness, the pain, the numbness you feel when Abby leaves with Lev and Ellie is left sobbing there, is something that I have never experienced before with a game and scarcely with any movie/tv show.
It is such a deep game that makes you reflect a lot and that for me, makes it the best game I have ever played before.
I felt sad when Joel died, but I was also amazed at how brutal the scene was because that was what I was expecting in this world of TLOU, and ugly death that would make you think it is unfair, because life is like that as well. When I played the 1st one I also didn't agree with Joel's choice at the end. I could see how selfish he was and even though I loved Ellie and I absolutely loved playing with her in this one, I was angry, because he made the most selfish decision: saving one life over all the other living population on Earth.
I got mindblowded when they made me play as Abby. It was such an intelligent and unexpected move. Nothing I could have predicted because not many people would risk to do this, but it was incredible. I could understand both of them, their pain, their desperation, fear, etc and it was horrible to see how they lost themselves in the process of seeking for revenge. Abby is just Ellie but in the next stage, in the stage in which she faces the reality that killing his father's murderer won't bring him back, facing the horrible things she did and trying to reedem herself and heal. They are, esentially, mirrors of each other and it was really cleverly constructed with so many little details that prove this.
It makes me happy to see other people who share my perspective because all the negative comments and hate towards Abby are heartbreaking.
I can't for TLOU3!
I completely agree with all of this! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Did anyone thought here that the play with abby would be short story to the point where it dropped (abby meets ellie) and didnt pay attention enough on the story.. (i literally just played fast based because i was in a hurry to see what happends next... noticing after 5 hours with abby,.. wow this is a whole other jorney.. have to paly again the game.. This game was scary.. scary what human mind can do when you feel broken inside.. forgiving even its the most beating thing to do is one of the important things in life m, that we can move on! Brilliant story.. abby.. still didnt enjoy her.. but after the gam,e i totallyget it and feel this. 9/10
@@ariruishalme4403 never thought it like that... interesting. I guessed we would get around the same hours because you see "Seattle, day 1" again, so I guessed we could have another 3 days with Abby and therefore I just played it like Ellie, maybe even slower because Abby's parts were scarier in my opinion. I think they did an incredible job with the scary settings, scenes, etc as well. "The Descend" and "Ground Zero" were horrifying XD I am glad you could understand Abby's perspective even if you still don't like her, I think that's pretty cool. Now I am on my second playthrough on a more difficult setting, taking my time through the sections, trying new stuff and just appreciating more everything while analyzing the story and the characters a bit more. There are a lot of things you overlook on a first playthrough so this second playthrough is helping a lot to understand better the characters and see tiny details about their personalities.
@@judethefourth336 yah. I just thought it's faster .. kinda disappointed the way played it. But second play through I get it more.. nice game.. first time heavily brutal.. got shock several times.. never got .. in a game . This is so much better than movies.
@@ariruishalme4403 I also enjoyed it more than a lot of movies that I have watched. It makes you get immersed into the story since the beginning as you are actively participating on everything that takes place as the player. I wonder what is the future of video games seeing how they are already able to create such a thing.
Thank you so much for making videos like this. It's been genuinely horrifying watching people find so many ways to justify their rage and aggressive criticism and lack of empathy with all those mental gymnastics while claiming to know best about the games and stories, so I really, really appreciate hearing you talk about these things so beautifully and concisely. As someone who experienced the games in reverse order (not exactly what you described, but as close as anyone could get, I think) I can safely say that going through the story backwards and a bit upside down was a vastly different experience. Everything you said about that was true, and more.
I totally feel you, Indie Faerie! Don't forget that the Outrage Merchants may be loud, but they don't speak for the majority. There is a ton of love for Abby in our community. That being said, it's very meaningful that you enjoyed this video. Experiencing the games in reverse order sounds so fascinating to me! I wonder what that must have been like for you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
When I first bought the game and finished playing it (just a month ago), i was torn. I hated joel's selfishness but that's what made it brilliant, in my opinion. It stuck with me for weeks and I mulled over it, just wondering why would joel do this and ruin humanity's chance of surviving. To be honest, that's the reason I never felt any anger towards abby killing him because she was justified. As you said, it's only a matter of perspective- and, it's such a pity that so many people were blinded by that fruitless rage. I hope they come across this video. Keep your amazing work, man, love your videos.
Thank you, Suga Bot!
I think Joel didn't do it only because he is selfish but the context pushed him to. He was trying to save Ellie when fireflies knocked him out. Then he wakes up ask to see her but they tell him they are going to sacrifice her. They don't even let him talk to her for the last time likeI never understood why Jerry was in the rush for the surgery. It's 20 years after the apocalypse lmao it's to late so he can let Ellie and Joel talk. Marlene said she was going to pay him but instead when he brings them Ellie they threatened to kill him. What a way to thank someone for the hell he has been trough. Plus for Joel, military and many others factions fireflies are terrorists. How would you react if a group of terrorist tells you we are going to sacrifice your daughter figure?
@@uchiwamadara4614 I like the way you articulated that. I may even copy and paste that for other channels. I also want to add in that, the vaccine/cure was always a little vague to me. I understand Ellie condition was unique and it generated excitement but i didn't get the idea that it was guaranteed. Also i like to mention that, in a way, It made sense for Joel to save Ellie considering the journey they had together. How Ellie saved Joel physically and even bring out Joel's humanity. Kind of like Ellie saving Joel in more than one way.
The game really wasn't as bad as people make it out to be.
@suga bot - For me this game was largely about perspectives. So, if you were in Joe's position, surviving for 20 years in a world filled with so much savagery, chaos, and tribalism, do u see much hope in humanity? Is humanity worth saving? However what's worth saving is a little girl, innocent and saved your life in more than one ways.
Stop thinking you're such a good person because you didn't agree with Joel saving, basically his daughter in a world gone to hell. Any normal person would do the same thing as him.
Once said to a friend of mine that The Last Of Us Part II feels more like a hell of an empathy exercise than a video game. When everyone else was expecting a "video game" (hence the infamous outrage surrounding it). You writing this essay turning the story of the game around reminds me of what I consider empathy--putting yourself in someone else's shoes. So thank you for making this video and encapsulating all of my messy thoughts with the game! I have subbed, liked, and will send this to my aforementioned friend lol
I'm literally glad I'm not the only person that understands this thank you wolf for this video and all the videos that come before
Thank you, from one *wolf* to another
Glad I found your channel; already subbed. I find that your views on "Last of Us" 1 & 2 very closely relate to my views as well. These are masterstrokes in storytelling.
The Coyote is one of my spirit animals.
holy craaap this video is so good, how do you only have 800 subs? you deserve waaay more. tbh if there was no moral ambiguity within the first game's ending (which is what some people think) it would ruin the ending for me. The reason why its a masterpiece for me is the selfish action that joel did.
Bless you, xNAM! That means a lot to me. I rely on word of mouth and people sharing my videos across the internet to get optics on the channel, so anything you guys can do means a lot in that regard. And I couldn't agree with you more about Part 1's ending. Welcome to the channel!
So close to 10k in just 3 weeks!!!
@@munozjuanpablo1266 im shocked at how fast it happened but he definitely deserves it
@@nam9085 yeahhh dude, he make a really good content
10k now
Great video! Since I played it I have stated that this game is a whole empathy test mixed up with the 5 stages of grief. It is disappointing that so many people are unable to challenge their prejudices and biases.
I could not have said it better, Karla, and thank you! The good news is, I like to think of this as the beginning of a gaming renaissance, where we're going to be seeing more art told at this level. It's actually the future of not just apex entertainment, but the highest form of human storytelling, which I go into here: ruclips.net/video/97P7i05kCxI/видео.html
Part 2 is just misery porn that wallows in nihillism, grief and hopelessness.
@@Hero_Of_Old it's a brutal game. With beautiful moments. Kinda similar to life.
I like how these TLOU videos you’ve been doing has made your channel grow so much congrats
This is a video that people need to see. Your arguments are perfectly crafted and hopefully put into perspective more about the morality within this game and how people shouldn't strictly criticize it based upon deaths Joel, but what the game is as a whole. Very interesting indeed.
I’ve been trying to find someone who actually understands the association bias in tlou2 for so long and you are that person, thank you!!
BOOM. You nailed this. I'm a marriage and family therapist and a big fan of TLOU (both the OG and Part II). When the supercilious vitriol over elements of the story in Part II started flooding the internet, I was disappointed but not at all surprised. It's true. We tend to side with the more familiar parties (be they fictional characters or real life friends and family members). But attempting to take another's perspective when you are digging your heels in to stay on your chosen team is an incredibly difficult exercise, and one that many of my clients cannot successfully complete. TLOU2, in my mind, was a master class in perspective taking. And many gamers got a big, fat F. It makes my day every time I see a video like this! 💕 Thank you for the excellent content! Consider me subscribed and notified!!!
Thank you, Lanie! I always appreciate a detailed response like this, especially from someone with experience in psychology. Thanks for sharing the love! 🤠
Bruh I just found your channel and I'm literally impressed. I watched a couple of your videos and they were so good. And in this one you're literally speaking facts. Just keep up the great work man. I honestly do not understand why you dont have thousands of subscribers. Literally one of the most underrated youtubers I've seen
Hot damn, man, thank you so much for that. It really means a lot to hear that. So, thank you for sharing that love. I've got some cool stuff in the works and knowing that awesome folks like you are jacking into my content on a cerebral level is the reward I've been looking for.
What an analysis of association bias! Besides this video, only one other person i have spoken to got this. This game is revolutionary in storytelling an empathy machine. Icing on the cake, they release it in summer of 2020, when empathy and discussion was necessary.
This game helped me a lot. I have a disorder that sometimes makes it hard to see gray areas in people and emotions and my brain reflexively sorts people into good and bad. I love the motto "imagine people complexly" but struggle hard to live by it. This game was a perfect exercise that made me realize I am only the empathetic person I always thought I was if I care about a person and haven't just written them off as "bad". This game changed me and I hope I can get closer to my goal of seeing people as infinitely complex beings because of it.
Thank you for sharing this. Because you desire to achieve the outcome and are actively working towards it, I am confident you will get there. That's really the only two ingredients I ever needed to accomplish anything I was working on within myself. Again, thank you for sharing with us.
THANKS. I'm Spanish and have a TLOU fan account on Instagram and I always try to explain my point of view (not easy for me to do it in English), which is simply the one you've given here (imagine you played Jerry's and Abby's journey in the first game). This is such a good argument. Thanks for sharing with everyone!
My pleasure, Natalia, and thank you!
Your videos are just top notch ! Keep making them ! . You deserve all the love ❤️
Thank you for the love, Zubair! Much and more to you.
5:15 I wonder if any hater felt ashamed of themselves after having this fact sinked 🤔
This video actually changed my entire perspective on this game, I honestly never looked at it that way
Thanks for helping me to accept the tlou2 story.
Aw, man, my pleasure. So glad you're here on the channel, Howalk. Many welcomes and warm returns.
You've actually managed to change my view on TLOU2 with this video. Immediate sub gained
The controversy surrounding this game perfectly encapsulates the story that the game is trying to tell. It’s actually hilarious how people have fallen into the exact same roles as Ellie, Abby and/ or Joel.
As a person who loved both games I never had an issue with playing as Abby after learning her story but I also never thought about the whole story as the way you described it. Brilliant and thank you
I love the last of us series, and your videos are awesome man!
Thanks a ton, Joel! 🤠
Trying to put so many complex ideas into a medium where people play league of legends, call of duty, GTA etc. It's a no brainer that so many people wouldn't understand.
@wolf of thorns there is a small detail that was not mentioned in this video, which actually explains why this empathy exercise is irrelevant and why even if the whole pt1 was from the fireflies' perspective that wouldn't eventually make them likeable. the consent! the "good doctor" who waited for years for a miracle and a chance to cure all mankind couldn't wait for couple more minutes for ellie to wake up and decided to kill her in her sleep. why? what was the rush for? he waited for 20 years and we are supposed to feel sympathy for him for that he couldn't wait a bit longer and we are supposed to agree that few hours after ellie was carried into the building the only acceptable option for him was to open her skull. there was nothing else to be done in this situation. really? i don't think so. yes, of course, ellie had to die to give the people a chance for survival, so eventually, that was a hard but correct decision, however, why this had to be done momentarily? and who says the decision was his to make? the dilemma here is supposed to be "to MURDER a child NOW or to let humankind be extinguished" when in reality there is nothing to suggest the child should die NOW nor it should be MURDERED. the good doctor didn't bother to get ellie's consent, which he knew he would get, because as marlene said to joel, that was what she wanted. marlene knew ellie since she was born and even though she couldn't be 100% sure how ellie would react to all this, she was in the position to make an educated guess, that ellie would go for it. and we know from pt2 that's exactly the truth. we could assume that marlene had many chances to tell the good doctor that ellie would do anything to help them. then why he directly jumped on killing her? did he ask her and she refused to sacrifice herself, which left him with no other option but to kill her? no, he didn't! he knew joel cared deeply about the girl (marlene told him that), but if it was up to him, he wouldn't even tell him about the operation. he didn't care to explain to him what's going on and give him time, with the help of ellie, to accept her decision and lost. he didn't even give them a chance to take their goodbye. why? why the hell he treated them so badly? because he couldn't care less about joel and ellie. that's why! all he was interested in was getting what he needed out of ellie's head as quick as possible. what kind of a person treat people like that? in one of the many morally challenging situations in pt2, marlene asked the good doctor would he sacrifice his own daughter. that, in fact, given the circumstances, was not the logical question for this particular situation. any normal human being would ask "why the hell you want to kill her right now, she just entered the damn building?" or "i know she will help us, shouldn't we ask her first and kill her only as a last resort?" or maybe "would you agree if SOMEONE sacrifices your daughter without your knowledge, without asking her and without giving you two a chance to say goodbye?". nevertheless, the heroes of this alternative pt1, with whom we are supposed to fall in love, didn't trouble their minds with such formalities and instead decided to kill a little girl in her sleep and to inform the man who felt her as a daughter a few mins in advance. and to make things even more ridiculous they kicked him out with a gun pointed at his back. and actually, they could have told him AFTER ellie was already dead- what if joel didn't get in consciousness on time? marlene mentioned he had the right to know, BUT she didn't wake him up- he opened his eyes on his own and it was him who asked her what's going on with the child. what if he woke up after the operation? would he have reasons to get mad when they told him the truth?
so what if the "good guys" actually acted as such and instead of killing an unconscious child and flashing a gun to her "father" (as joel saw things), actually approached this situation with a bit of empathy? you know that little thing pt2 is all about (of course, in addition to "revenge can't help you find closure and peace"). empathy! let's talk about it or rather the lack of it. they knew ellie would be very cooperative. it's hard for me to imagine that if they didn't rush things joel would still react the way he did because in that scenario he would have to forcibly kidnap ellie. dragging her out of the hospital doesn't link with his profile of a careful father. even if he escaped with ellie kicking and screaming on his back then what? he would keep her tied up? for how long? years? this is ridiculous. the man was traumatized not a maniac. the narrative in pt2, actually sets nothing but a false dilemma, because the fireflies are in fact responsible for what happened to them in pt1. their inadequate actions put joel in an impossible position, and they didn't even have a reason for provoking him like that. what joel did was bad, but it was a logical consequence of their inhuman behaviour. if they acted decently and just waited for a couple of days to get ellie's consent, (which they would, no doubts about it) they could all talk this through like normal people. the fireflies wouldn't be child killers (the consent factor), they still would get what they need and they would part ways with joel peacefully. and if joel still took it badly (which doesn't sound logical to me) THEN the bloodshed would be on him. they would have done the right thing, he would have exposed himself as a crazy maniac (dragging out ellie against her will, killing everyone standing on his way) and we would have nothing to discuss here!
but they didn't do the right thing, because they were fanatics with no respect for human life. which is funny, given the fact their main goals were to preserve humankind and to restore society. the irony is overwhelming. the "good doctor", being the good person and father he is, instead of showing a bit of sympathy for another man, who is honestly concerned about "his" little girl (like a father to father) decided to open ellie's head without even telling joel. marlene wasn't much better than the doctor- "hey joel, thank you for bringing ellie to us. i know you thought that we will take care of her, but actually, we will have to kill her in just a couple of minutes. oh, and we will kill you too if you don't get the fuck out of here right now". that's the good guys? seriously? and abby was there the whole time through. she knew exactly how her daddy decided to handle this, and she totally approved it, even encouraged him, which makes her responsible too for what happened. she literally told him "if it was me, I WOULD WANT you to make the operation" and yet, even then, it didn't occur to these two to ask ellie what SHE wanted. she wasn't in a vegetative state or something, but just sleeping!
abby had reasons to be angry for a while after her daddy got shot, but the fact she wasn't able to understand for 5 years (man, that's a lot!) that they brought it on themselves, denying any responsibility for what happened, tells us only she is either not a good person herself or she is having hard times making the difference between good and bad, which is the textbook definition of a psychopath. which explains why she fitted in with wlf so well for so long. wlf, in case you've missed that, are the guys who executed a little girl over graffiti. and killed some other kids, because "they attacked first", as abby put it. which in case of inevitable self-defence i guess would be sort of ok, if she didn't follow up with "they deserved it, we did nothing wrong" (no guilt whatsoever, but as we saw 5 years before that abby is perfectly fine with killing children, cough, cough, ellie). wlf have the practice of torturing prisoners (nothing disturbing for abby as well) and finally, they are the people who committed genocide. what kind of a person you should be to become part of the leadership of such an organization? imagine that pt3 is about what abby was doing for wlf all those years before she found joel. what kind of a story would that be? it would shed a light on the activities of "isaac's top scarr killer" of which even abby herself isn't proud and prefered to say nothing when she was directly confronted on many occasions by lev and mel. having these personal features explain why abby didn't find anything wrong in asking her friends to risk their lives, only for that she could get the pleasure of torturing and killing joel. who does that? and that's why those of her friends, who weren't complete scumbags eventually dumped her (owen and mel). because enough is enough and they couldn't live anymore the life that was normal to abby or imagine raising a child in such a horrible environment. either way, understanding the motivation behind the actions of a bad person or of a psychopath doesn't make them a good person nor justifies their actions. they still remain shitty or sick person which we just happen to know a bit better. joel was not an angel too, but what abby saw of him was not the guy "on the other side of the ambush" but a father defending his daughter, who was pushed into violence. which should be an understandable reaction for her if she was a decent human being, but she is not. and that's not because of the trauma she suffered (even though the same obviously helped her turn into a monster). she was a shitty person even when her daddy was still alive. i mean really what kind of freaks are concerned about the feelings of a zebra but are incapable to feel empathy for a father losing his daughter, which they decided to kill without even the idea of getting her consent to cross their twisted minds? but hey, they released a freaking zebra from a barbed wire fence, so they must be good guys, right? yeah, sure, no doubt!
in conclusion, i would say, choosing between joel and the fireflies is a false dilemma in terms of morality and that wouldn't change even if we played with the fireflies in pt1.
Jesus, if that doesn’t get the point across I don’t know what will. This is by far the best analysis and reasoning I have seen so far about Joe’s dilemma and some other stuff that some people would have disagree.
@@jcofthegalaxy7439 thank you :)
This, and although I understand Abby's motives, she or the Fireflies are not any better than Joel. But in TLOU2 the Fireflies are like Saints and heroes, which is something they absolutely were not in TLOU1.
Fun fact: even real life doctor says that wanting to kill a girl for a vaccine is complete bullshit 😂 Search "doctor reacts to the last of us 2" and see 😀
@@513Anonimka yeah, exactly. it's funny to see how naughty dog love to brag about how realistic TLOU is. :D even if we assume there is such a thing as killing someone for a vaccine (absolute bullshit!), well, the doctor examined ellie for 5 mins and it took him no longer than that to conclude she had to die right there, right now, and there was no way around it. that's realistic?! seriously?! any real doctor would run multiple additional tests before moving on to such a drastic measure. and they would do those tests multiple times, again and again, trying to figure out an alternative solution, a scenario, in which they would get the vaccine and ellie would live, no matter how miserable the chances for success were. that would take them weeks, even months. because this is what real doctors do- THEY SAVE LIVES. but our guy was ready with the verdict after the very first exam! 5 mins and then poof, dr. mengele has spoken- "oh no, she have to die, it's so hard for me, we tried everything"! imagine if a doctor tells you the same in real life- "we examined thoroughly your daughter for 5 mins and unfortunately there is nothing we can do- she will die". i would beat the shit out of him right there, on the spot! when i finish with him he would need a doctor himself. and remember that guy was a genius who obviously knew what he was doing. but even if we assume he was so brilliant in his work that he could diagnose people without running tests (another gigantic bullshit!) and he was 100% sure there was no chance for ellie to survive (yep, more bullshit), then it comes to the question of how he could know he didn't make a mistake? i mean, it was just ONE, very quick exam, wasn't it? shouldn't he examine her multiple times just to confirm the results and rule out any possibility for a human or technical error? and shortly after on that day he made another two strange (to say the least) decisions, crossing yet again the boundaries in terms of professional ethics and morality (not to mention that in real life things like that would put his ass in jail for a loooong time). he decided to operate ellie (i.e. to kill her) without trying to take her consent first nor to inform joel. no real doctor who is a decent human being wouldn't do that, but for him, apparently, that was just a waste of time. his actions on that day clearly prove that he wasn't interested in saving her life, nor he was interested in her human rights, as instead, he was impatient to start working on the vaccine. the guy simply didn't give a shit! he is no better than the nazi doctors who were doing experiments with humans. for him, ellie was just a sample. naughty dog massively fucked up with the narrative and didn't really think it through what a colossal piece of shit they are trying to present as a "good guy" in pt2. nice try naughty dog, thanks, but no thanks- i didn't like the fireflies in pt1 and pt2 didn't change a thing for me.
anyways fuck him and fuck that stupid ass daughter of his, cheering for him, while he was preparing to murder a child. couldn't care less about those two freaks.
I guess this game was meant to be experienced to understand but most of all FEEEEL what the story had to delivered.
To be honest those who have hate so deeply on this game were the people who didn`t had the oportunity to experience the game.
I like how you`ve put the vide together by telling Abby`s story first too.
I guess Naughty Dog`s writters and team really like mirroring the story too, which really turned out to be super well done to be honest.
Joel/Ellie mirrored Abby/Jerry(abby`s dad)
The giraph scene, the zebra scene
Abby finding a purpose for her life tried saving Yara and Lev
Joel found Ellie that ended up giving him a purpose too.
I guess there is some other thematical scenes that mirror one another but I guess you know what I mean by all of that.
This game is trully gonna follow me forever as I`ll never forget that initial experience for real, the depression that followed a couple months after finishing the game cause of the ending that messed me up. I guess it really got me into dwelling for real, glad I`ve listen to the podcast as I think it was Shannon Woodward who mentionned the 5 morning stages. I`ve looked this up on google to learn about it. That quick research has enlighten me on the dwelling trages and process I guess to over come it I guess. Maybe that`s too deep I don`t even know
Loved that, some really great thoughts in there. Minor tweaks I'd make. Like Joel was portrayed as no angel in the first game, Jerry and the Fireflies would be displayed the same having done bad things for their "greater good" (Think the Rebel alliance from Rogue One rather than the original movies. Still the good guys but much more grey). Also it isn't Ellie's "father" that shows up but the dodgy smuggler they hired to deliver her who goes crazy for some reason, murders a load of people then steals her away for an unknown purpose at the crucial moment. Is he talking her to a higher bidder? Is he another "David"? No one knows...
This is the insight I needed from my favorite video game franchise. Buying part 1 back in 2014 when it was remastered for the PS4, I had no idea the impact these games would have on me. Definitely subscribed! 🤘
this perfectly explains this game, i wish that everyone who hate this game could see this and they might change their minds to re-play the game and enjoy it as much as i did. i really like your videos and now im suscribed, hope that you'll keep creating such great content, and sorry if i'd written something wrong, english is not my native language jdskdjw
You GET IT, man! I've been studying psychology in uni for close to five years now so maybe that has something to do with why I understand and feel so strongly and think so highly of these games (especially TLOU2), but I haven't seen anyone else discussing the psychological brilliance of TLOU2. I love hearing your commentary on these games and I've yet to hear you say something I disagree with. Well... the whole "Dina and Ellie should stay separated in part 3" I can debate, and I think either them getting back together or staying apart could be pulled off in a meaningful way, but besides that, you describe my own thoughts on these games and characters perfectly.
You are right! However, I also feel that it depends on how you relate to the characters you play. I personally related more with Joel, than I did with other characters.
Yeah, this video really hits the spot. The problem is, however, that Abby and her dad are noway near as complex or well written characters as J&E.
Abby is the spitting image of Joel, morally. I would say she's plenty complex. Her dad tho??? I honestly did not care about him. I think that's what bothered me so much about the story. They wanted us to walk a mile in Abby's shoes, but they did not give us time to care about anybody but her, Lev and Yara. Like...
Wolf has a point about the bias. I am plenty biased. I did not care I was killing Abby's friends. I cared that it traumatized Ellie, but in the end their deaths were like any other. I was even happy Nora and Manny died because they were just so unlikable. If they wanted us to question Ellie's actions, or make us feel for Abby's group: this game should have been solely about Abby. They should have made us care about her dad especially. They made a huge mistake by splitting their stories in one narrative. Abby needed more time.
I am so glad you brought up the potential other side of first playing as Abby and her Dad. I just wish everybody could understand just like you and me.
Personally someone could tell me the story of what both sides did and I’d still feel like the Fireflies got what they had coming to them.
So did Joel
@@Ren-fn5ff LOL! Oh yeah. Saving a kid from being murdered. Slow death by torture is definitely a punishment that fits the crime. Do yourself a favor and go get checked out for delusional disorder.
@@Papadoc1981 He wasn’t a good person though? Did you watch the guys video? Joel deadass ran through a hospital and murdered everyone almost in the entire building💀
@@isaiahchavez7321 You see that's the thing. It can't called be murder because Joel was already threatened by the fireflies with death. So by right he was more than justified to respond with lethal force because that is exactly what he was threatened with. You see how that works. He was unarmed and already knocked unconscious without reason. And they didn't even think to restrain/detain him? In a law abiding society his defense would be iron-clad. And in a post-apocalypse world it's survival of the fittest. Are we suppose to feel bad that the fireflies threaten someone's life and the result was them getting murked? Their arrogance costs them dearly.
@@Papadoc1981 Wow. First of all, take a chill pill. Second of all, I never said he deserved it, or that it fits his "crime", I only said he had it coming. His actions called for a reaction from the surviving Fireflies, no matter who was morally right or wrong, that was bound to happen, even more so in this lawless world where such terms as "crime", "punishment" and especially "justice" no longer mean what they used to.
Joel had it coming, just as the Fireflies did. We can justify each side, but that gets to nothing. In case you haven't been paying attention, everyone does what they think is right for their cause, nothing else. We can judge and take a side in our heads, but that doesn't make their decisions less egotistic and selfish. The Fireflies truly believed they were making a better world, and Joel truly believed that Ellie was everything he had left, so they acted upon it.
Also, you seem to believe that Joel is justified because he saved a child, but that wasn't his intention at all. If it was any other child that wasn't Ellie, he would've simply turned and walk away. He did what he did for himself only, not even for Ellie. Even then, I understood him. He's one of the most compelling and human characters I've seen in videogames (and other media), so I understand why you defend him so fiercely.
Thank you so much for videos like this. I love seeing varying opinions on this game described WELL. And you describe defense of this game so well.
So well said, might go back to the review videos and post a link to this vid
Best explanation I’ve seen articulated. Subbed.
Absolutely solid video! Of all the games I played, maybe ever, none of have delivered that heavy introspection over association bias quite like the TLOU2 has. It's a lesson on empathy and the sheer difficulty of forgiveness. The character motivations track but they have a level of depth and are complicated like Raskolnikov from Crime Punishment (Rask whipsaws between how he feels and how he acts but its understandable given the trauma he deals with--its a similar thing with Abby and Ellie, and key events in the story are what sways them). Just because Ellie wanted to forgive Joel before the events of the game doesn't mean she will no longer hold a grudge against anybody. Likewise, just because Abby has gone on a redemptive journey with Lev doesn't mean she attained the radical empathy necessary to simply get over the sight of Owen and Mel murdered.
That introspection over bias is whats really on offer here. The game is NOT trying to make you feel bad for playing it or killing people--the journalists and other people who make that argument are mistaken on this as the game doesn't change according to your kill total, and both infected and factions will kill you on sight. This is just critiquing the game over something it didn't set out to do. It's really about allowing you to be on the characters' predetermined journey, and asking the player why these characters needed to be there in the first place (eg Ellie in Seattle), and why they might side with one set of characters rather than the other. It's not about judging the player, its about judging the characters. And in judging the characters, a player may begin to question their own desires for a power fantasy that 99% of other games are happy to dish out. And its worth pointing out that it ultimately ends on a message of hope, and that its not cynical game, given that both leads learn to forgive in their own respective moments. This game is simply far more than "Revenge bad." It's a testament to the 2 games' writing and legacy that so many people were on board with Ellie's revenge quest in the first place.
Thank you for making these videos!!
Beat analysis Ive seen,wish this had more views.These were exactly my thoughts after my first play through and I am trying to find someone with the closest idea of what this game means
Awesome Awesome Assessment! Great job reversing the story. I was thinking the exact same thing as I played the game. The Last of Us 2 has some the best writing I have ever seen in a video game.
Loved the video, I also love how Abbys father admits he would be willing to let his daughter die for the greater good of man kind, but Joel knows the TRUE pain and suffering of losing a daughter and under no circumstance could he let it happen again.
¡Peace, love and more life to everyone out there, stay safe! 👊🏿🙏🏿❤️
Omg exactly!! I loved what part 2 did, many people are just incapable of looking at things from the other side.
Great & mature understanding of storytelling. SUBBED
Thank you, Fred, and welcome to the pack!
Wow, Dan. This was an amazing video on association bias and empathy. At the most basic interpretation, it is about perspective.
Regardless, you are absolutely right in your observations.
If people play the first game thinking that Joel is a white knight, they are sadly mistaken. We as the game players are naturally sympathetic to him because we play as him and we can relate to his feelings about the situation he was in. But even when he was talking with Ellie in the first game after the choke point ambush (i.e. with the bus in the city), he admitted to Ellie that he had been on both sides of the same situation before. That means he has also attacked innocent people for their supplies.
In their crazy world, where a vicious infection has been affecting the planet for almost twenty years, most (if not all) people have had to act in their best interests. This usually results in finding a way to survive with others (joining the Fireflies, Seraphites, Rattlers, or staying in a QZ), or eventually dying one of several ways (getting killed by the other groups mentioned, dying of starvation/malnutrition/lack of medical care, or being killed by some form of the CBI).
In Part 2, most people are outraged at Abby for killing Joel. But when you get to the end of the game, it comes down to the facts. Abby and company killed Joel and Jesse, just two people. In turn, Ellie---and by association Dina, Tommy, and Jesse---easily killed *almost a hundred people* or more (Wolves, Seraphites, and Rattlers). *The vast majority of these kills can all be pinned to Ellie.*
To add some perspective to this, imagine yourself living in the world of TLOU/TLOU2 and just surviving. You and your family have been able to stay hidden enough to scrape by with enough food, and you have managed to avoid dealing with any of the infected. You and your family then join a larger group that offers safety in numbers, as well as shelter, food, and clothes. *Then you run into this lean, angry young woman who kills anyone and everyone in her way.*
Perspective and empathy are interesting things.
Thanks for posting this video!
Thanks for making this video, it’s exactly how I felt when I saw the hate the second game got, it reveals a severe lack of empathy
You put what I was thinking/feeling perfectly
dude your tlou videos are GODLY and i'll definitely check out your other vids
Thank you so much and thanks for sharing the love! I would expect no less from strawberry flavored clouds!
That's what I absolutely 💘 about this 🎮 it's so much more than just a game and the message is so powerful. But also show the basis of 2 factions and how flawed they are like they don't want 2 be wrong and think what what they did was justified when in the end their the worst themselves. It challenge us 2 be open-minded and 2 be aware of what were doing is really worth it.
@WolfOfThorns ... Multiple times previously (on other RUclips videos, Instagram, Twitter, etc) I had tried to tell the Part 2/Abby haters why they were wrong. So often I heard exactly what you said, some derivation of, "Why is Naughty Dog trying to get me to like Abby?" I often responded with a question of: How is Ellie justified in killing Abby, but Abby had no right to kill Joel? That Part 1 were the actions of Joel and Part 2 were the ramifications and fallout of those actions as two protagonists dealt with the situation they were both put in by the same individual. I had heard of confirmation bias, but not association bias. Your analysis using association bias was outstanding and it highlights the hypocrisy in most of the haters. You just earned a new subscriber.
Even though the main point is about revenge or least we thought at first because of how overall the story went by, it also is about how there’s no good or bad people mostly in the end it’s basically free for all type shit and personally I find this game the best of decade because I can reflect and comprehend on the game’s setting and story and can relate this deep emotional realm of this game the first was very good with this father and daughter type thing goin on but this one just hits different since there’s a lot more to this story
Ok...
So when I first played Part 2, I was amazed how they took the 2 greatest characters ever in a video game, and turned the tables on them of how they were viewed by others .
Leading up to the games release, I stayed away from anything having to do with it, because I didn't want to get any preconceived ideas of where the story would go.
I knew Joel wouldn't make it to the end of the game alive....that just made sense, knowing we would be playing as Ellie.
It was brilliance tying every piece of Part 2 into the original game, and it never felt like a "sequel" to me, more as a deepening continuation of what we had already played.
I realized once I began playing as Abby, and finding out who she was, that you needed to be able to empathize with everyone, and this made the human realism so much more concrete.
What shocks me is how so many who trash this game, simply do not understand it.
I love Joel and Ellie, but that does not mean I was pissed about how Joel met his demise. I found it to be a very satisfying end to a character who did what he had to do to survive. In a post apocalyptic world, things would be very different. Our reLities would not be as they are now, and WE ALL would do the same things in order to see another day. It would catch up with all of us eventually.
When someone bashes in someone's face to a pulp, that means it is very personal. Naughty Dog nailed that. Also seeing the downward spiral both Ellie and Abby went through due to the choices they made, made them human.
I wouldnt ask for the Last of Us Part 2 to be any different. It only enriched the brilliance of Part 1....and did nothing but expand upon that brilliance.
So for me....I never understood any of the crap this game has taken....
Its an extremely intelligent and ingeniously crafted story. And I wish people who don't have the brain power to experience it, would just realize they're idiots and shut up.
Love your content man, keep going. Am subbed and notifications are on. ❤️
Thank you, J! I'm glad that Abby could persuade you to turn on that bell! She's an effective salesman.
You should’ve a click-bait title for this video because this is a very good explanation of the game itself. Maybe “What if you play as Abby in the first TLOU?” something like that.
In any case, thank you for putting up all of your videos. I just recently finished TLOU 2 and man, I am an emotional wreck. I think I won’t be playing any games for a couple of months, nor even reading any fiction books just to absorb and also help me move on from the experience. Playing the game is so much like reading a really good book, but very different also, since this time, it lets us experience the scenarios, makes us do the choices that these characters are doing, whether we like them or not. It’s very immersive. I think this is exactly what immersive gaming literally means!
When I started playing as Abby in the game, I was cringing and smiling at the same time. Cringing because “Oh no, naughty dog is forcing me to play her, nooo you’re not doing this to me!!!” Smiling because “WTH naughty dog is doing something very very different, and I have never played a game like this that made me feel so cringy to play the villain. I am curious and interested but I feel so cringyyyyyy.”
I tried to compare it to Breath of Fire 4, where through the game, we get to play the villain -- but I failed. TLOU part 2 is very very different from BOF4.
Throughout the Abby gameplay, I was cringing at first, then after a few hours still cringing while cheering on what Abby was doing for the Seraphite kids. I even ended up concluding that maybe Ellie is the real villain here after all, especially during their fight scene in the theater - because Ellie didn’t stop after seeing Jesse and Tommy getting killed. (I thought Tommy was really killed.) After the theater fight, I felt cringy playing Ellie for pursuing Abby again. It’s all just very emotional!!! Naughty Dog made it sure that we feel the brutality and the mortality of the TLOU universe.
After finishing the game, I am finally able to browse through what people thought about it. Heard it was highly criticized, but when. i found out why, I was in shock. I can’t believe it that people would despise the game itself, for just being a story that killed a main character. The Game of Thrones killed a LOT of main characters, and no one batted an eye. I was thinking that if Ellie and Abby were ever boys/men, maybe it wouldn’t have been this noisy and highly criticized. I guess that shows how we’re still backwards in how women are branded in this modern world.
Regardless, there are sensible content that validates what I thought of the game. Thank you for these videos! Hope you get a shot in writing a game for Naughty Dog’s TLOU3! You have a good headstart. I didn’t like the guesses of others where they include JJ (which of course is a boy) as the main character. I like going back to Tommy and Ellie’s relationship. I also have a feeling that the Seraphite’s story is in need of an expansion. Their “savior” has an interesting story that is built throughout Abby’s gameplay.
I also have a hypothesis that Abby may have been immune, but that’s just because Ellie bit her and didn’t even turn. She also tried to escape at the resort, and their fellow jailmates assumed she has already turned , but didn’t. Seems like a start for TLOU3. I don’t know. I’m very excited for the surprise and shock that I expect of the third (final?) TLOU. I hope that despite of the criticism, the artistic integrity of this game will not be compromised in the making of the 3rd one. I’d rather have a game that echoes throughout decades, rather than a game that is “user-approved”.
I love the fact that there are people that can reasonably explain the game
I was never mad on Abby. I knew she had a fat big reason to kill Joel.
Not only did he not play it, but he didn't even watch the video.
@Matthew Rendenm unfortunately he is too dumb to understand your logic.
These people jump through such absurd mental hoops to try and make this story way worse than it is.
@@lilmercy1580 I really don't undrestand Y R U ALTERCATING FOR THIS SHIT. I don't give a fck it's ridiculous watching by side :D
Me too I like everyone in there own ways but everyone was also wrong in there own ways too I really loved both games
I actually wished TLoU2 had started with us playing as Abbey following the timeline chronologically. Because if they made us feel attached to Abbey and her dad, only to make us lose him and realize we were going to go seek revenge against JOEL. Would’ve fuckin hurt.
Love your channel so much man
So happy to hear that--thanks for sharing the love, Nothing No
@@WolfofThorns of course
thank you for saying what has needed to be said for a long time.. those who hate on abby don’t know how to think about other perspectives
The game definitely reveals the psychology of the player
Listen dude. I just discovered your channel (LIES: RUclips just recommended it to me) and at the same time I have been playing both TLOU and TLOUII back to back at the same time I have been looking at your videos. At first when I saw one of the thumbnails I was like: "Ugh, probably another idiot that didn't like the videogame and wants to whine about it". But I clicked. And then I realized that on the contrary, you did like the game. A lot, and this videos' explanation is... it was so perfectly explained. And while replaying the games now, I have come to realize many things as I was going through them. It actually is mindblowing when you've played both games so many times that you know what's coming next that it then you have a lightbulb moment that makes you go: OH DAMN! I didn't realize this. Half way through TLOUII I am like: Yeah, there are so many reasons to actually dislike Joel... but then again, we fell so in love with this characters and for 9 years they were the top to us, that is difficult to see past beyond them. And I actually do think that in a psychological level, when we are playing as Abby in the theater and we need to approach and attack Ellie in the same way we had to do against David in TLOU is a way of tellling us that we don't fully know these characters. It is bad world the one from TLOU, paranoia and tension is what keep people alive in this world. There is only one rule: Endure and Survive.
Thank you for sharing your experience, Diego! I know what you mean in so many way. Don't worry, there is plenty of love for The Last of Us in our community and I'm so glad you've found us. New video dropping in six hours that I hope you enjoy. And welcome, once again!
I agree with all of this...but you took all of this from Cosmonaut Variety Hour 😂
Yessss hahaha
@Matthew Rendenm lol I wasn’t being totally serious but they are all the same
Shiit youre right, i hate those people who said tlou 2 Is a shit... No it isnt they just cant understand this masterpiece
Hey there, Libor! I'm glad you enjoyed the video and it sounds like you're as passionate about TLOU as I am. I don't hate people that don't see the world the same way that I do, and, while it can be frustrating at times, I remain hopeful that some folks will make the spark of discovery in their own lives that often opens and enhances perspective, wherever the winding road of their journeys may take them. I know my views have certainly changed over the course of my life through introspection and self-discovery, and I can only wish the same gift upon others.
It nice to see someone talked about these things from an different point of view within 6 minutes instead of ranting about Druckmann’s agenda and Joel’s death for 3 hours.
Really opening people’s eyes up, good shit
/salute
Nope, im still on my ground
The game is hypocrite and lack of narrative and good characters unlike the 1st one
A very good take, brilliantly told. Great stuff!
In the end everyone was a “good guy” but we just see them as bad, because we are on the opposite side this game shows us that
Difference is the first game you actually reach the destination. However second game becomes it was all a dream. Abby didn’t need to exist. I’m surprised Marlene didn’t have a daughter or son to hunt Joel down.
finally! yes! someone who doesnt keep treating Joel like a saint.
Edit: also u made me laugh a bit.
I get what you're talking about, and also agree that what Joel did was selfish. But the fireflies weren't any different. They were willing to murder a girl to try and develop a vaccine which would hypothetically save the rest of humankind, without giving her the chance to actively choose to sacrifice herself. Not to say that Abby was not trying to reverse what Joel did to the group, nor was she trying to reclaim their purpose of saving humanity, she was purely aiming to avenge her father (equally selfish).
You explained it exactly like cosmanut variety hour
Now this was an awesome video, dead on brother. ..I will put a more detailed comment later on after work.
Couldn’t explained it better thank you 🙏🏽 💯 this what I’ve been saying for months now since the game released 😒
Dude this video is fucking master class! Thank you so much ❤️
Good videos subscrided bro! Hi from spain bro. Be chill
I think I already had the understanding of a adaptive empathy so when joel got killed while it shocked me I understood the reasoning behind it and didn't let fandom take over my logic.. emotionally.
"And yet, people have a problem with it." Well damn, you didn't have to call me out like that XD
A wonderful point of view, actually! It makes total sense!
My bad, Owrooh. 🤠
Exactly dude. Exactly.
You’re absolutely right, but the sad part is some people don’t care how biased it is. They just wanted to go out like a bad ass in an action film. Thankfully Neil Druckman has more balls than that though, and wasn’t afraid to write a difficult story.
You explain it so well