068: Is Goth Apolitical?
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- We have a special episode for you this week, we are back with a full panel to discuss one of the most contentious topics related to goth. In a climate where it is becoming increasingly difficult to talk to those who don’t share our views, what role does goth play? Transgressive and activist counterculture, or impartial music tribe? Does denying the political roots and inclinations of goth culture lend itself to infiltration by racist and sexist ideologies?
Our panel this month consists of Abigail, Dani, Nephilim, Trae, and Zakkarri
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/ cemeteryconfessions
I’ve avoided dividing the episode into timestamped sections, as the the conversation is loosely structured, each portion of the episode continuously builds upon the previous on, and they are wide ranging in and of themselves. As always thank you for listening and supporting the show by telling your friends about us or jumping on patreon!
For me, when I think of "political," I only think about things that relate to political figures, creation of laws, desconstruction of laws, how the government runs, how the government interacts with society, etc. When it deals with ethics, morals and just treating people nicely, those things aren't political to me unless they revolve around the government (ex. fighting sexism vs getting a law passed for equal pay). For Goth, I feel like there are many things the subculture advocates for that are stereotypically linked to leftist ideas, but that doesn't mean that only democrats are real goths. The subculture can absolutely promote diversity, feminist concepts and disapprove of racism while still being apoltical because those things are all about being a decent person and anyone from any part of the political spectrum can share those beliefs.
I don't think it was intentional, but there seemed to be a conflation between supporting trump and being alt-right but they aren't the same thing. There also seemed to discussion that being a republican means that you can't be gay, be accepting of poc or support trans-rights. Although that is the stereotype, it's possible for republicans to be all things, it's not mutually exclusive.
The example of kicking someone out for spouting about white power doesn't show that goth is poltical because the person got kicked out moreso for their behavior than their beliefs. If the person isn't vocal about their views, participates in the scene and don't act on their questionable beliefs, then whose to say that they're less of a goth? You can still challenge or even not accept an individual for their political views but that's against them not against their goth identity.
Goth can definitely be a vechile in which people use to drive their politics but, again, that has to do with the individual rather than how the scene as a whole functions.
I probably had more to say but I don't really remember. Great episode, I'm glad it was really civil and a lot of people agreed to disagree. I think we need more of that in this current political climate.
UPDATE: Please read my comment to this, it has a lot more nuance than what I wrote here.
You're correct, the definition of "political" specifically deals with how a nation is run. Ethics, morals and the like can influence politics, but they are not directly political things.
I think that sums up the whole thing pretty well. Other than the music, clothes and movies I dont see that it defines more than that. It makes sense, though, that goths tend to be more liberal, but thats not to say that everyone within a group will turn out the same way. Not in the goth scene, either. Of course,I agree that it doesnt necessarily have to make much sense, but thats the way it is.
That being said, trying to change the outside world is obviosly important for a variety of reasons. I dont think society should tolerate hatred for refugees, for instance. I dont think that bullying should be accepted, either. Both of them are examples of why social change needs to be addressed. And are being addressed in this day and age.
A very perspicacious comment!
Well said! I totally agree! I've always thought of Goth as being more of a philosophical movement rather than political. Politics has to do with the activities associated with the government. Whereas philosophy
is concerned with the nature of reality, aesthetics (as in, questioning the definition of what is beautiful), existence, and the human soul. There's plenty of Goth music, art, poetry, and cinema that deals extensively in this realm. This goes back to Dark Romanticism/Gothic literature which used dark imagery as a metaphor for the nature of mankind and existence (i.e. Frankenstein, Metamorphosis by Kafka, the Minister's Black Veil by Hawthorne).
So, I believe Goth to be apolitical for this reason. That's one of the things that drew me to the Goth scene as a teenager. I didn't like politics and enjoyed Goth's focus on art, literature, and music.
I mentioned this comment before but yeah, I look back and read this and can't help but think "what a pedantic take." I focus so much on a specific definition of politics and ignore the real world application poltics play on goth spaces. Hell, the ability to even decide what IS or ISN'T political is, in it of itself, political. So yeah, Goth is political and it should be more political.
I, myself, have obviously gotten more polticial but that is a natural consequence of developing a stronger sense of empathy, literacy and awareness to the things going on in the world.
I wanted to respond to this comment to set the record straight to anyone who reads it down the line.
As usual, excellent episode!! So much stuff here. I think I have two broad criticisms of your general approach though. One is the way the question was posed in the first place. Why instead of asking "is Goth apolitical?" you didn't go for something like "HOW political or apolitical is Goth?" or even better "how political are Goths?". I think you ended up tangled in a bit of a byzantine argument derived from that first "yes or no" question.
And on the other hand, I think that while trying to describe and pinpoint whether Goth "is or isn't apolitical" in a descriptive/philosophical sense you missed a lot of the actual content of the political argument itself. I mean, you ended up talking about semantics and what Goth is or isn't (the old, unanswerable question) waaaay more than discussing actual politics. So the "Politics" episode wasn't very political, which is a pity. Personally I wanted to hear more about specific cases, like that DJ in LA you mentioned, for example. I just found it weird that in a 2 hour show about Goth and Politics there was no mention of stuff like Death in June, Boyd Rice, or Tony Wakeford, just to name a few filo-Fascists connected to our scene.
I always thought of goth as live and let live, in the strongest sense. When you consider how the dominant culture reacts to goth, it's very clear that goths know what they are getting into when they join this subculture. They are joining a culture that lives outside the dominant culture. It's a true expression of freedom that lives largely within the western world, and not just in the Anglosphere.
There are people or bands in the "Scene" who may be political, but the "scene" itself has never been and will never be a singular political movement no matter how much some might like it to be. We may share similar aesthetics, but as ridiculous as it may seem, we are all primarily individuals. We all have our own views and opinions and most of us respect that.
I sense trouble coming...
Another great podcast from a great channel!
I love the idea of goth as a passive counter culture! I think most of us just want to be who we are and be accepted as such. But it's not really in the definition of the subculture that we for instance would arrange demonstrations to demand political change. I've encountered goths with a lot of different political views and they're not less goth because of that, or because the majority of us disagree with that person. So in the broad spectrum goth is definitely apolitical.
With that said though I think that goth is, and has to be, political in the sense that we should not accept values that threaten our safety and our rights as individuals. I don't see how anyone can be goth and in the same time have political views that will for instance oppose to changes in society that makes is easier for us to not be discriminated against. And certain political and conservative religious do oppose us both as individuals and as a culture. And those political/religious views are per se incompatible with our subculture's collective view on individuality.
Because goth is apolitical it was a real turn off for me to see a certain LA DJ pushing their political leanings in their club nights. So much so that I don't attend her events anymore.
I always believed the subculture was the most apolitical. Just like me.
I thought so too/ hoped so
I disagree with most of your premises, but I appreciate the fact that you've started this discussion. I'll comment more once I'm done listening to the show.
A great podcast thanks 😊
A thought experiment:
If you knew someone who identified as Goth and found out he/she voted for Trump, would you still accept his/her identity as Goth? Is being left-leaning endemic of the Goth identity? Can a Goth be a gun owner? Can a Goth believe post-modern and/or Marxist ideology is nonsense? There was a lot of talk about right-wing extremists here, but in this epoch we currently inhabit I believe there are far more left-wing extremists.
It depends. Ive met some people that hold extreme views, but that doesnt mean the entire person is bad. Some research suggests that exposure to immigrants, muslims etc, decreases the hostility towards them.
I think the line is crossed when you go out of your way to hurt people, but in the end its a very tough question. A lot of the times the alt right and far right tends to hold conspiracy theories that are harmful.
I think that theres a different between support for Trump because they didnt wanted to vote for Hillary, and when lines are crossed into anti- vaxx or Quanon or etc
Great podcast 👍👍👍
I'm just glad I agree with everything I said listening to it after the fact! Whew! :)
And I still hold the opinion that local trends (aesthetic or ideological) in no way automatically infer that those trends can be stated of the goth culture as a whole.
I've just recently (within the last two months) discovered goth youtubers. You've become one of my favorites.
It isn't any more or less simple to share or talk about political views or even to be in contact with those who don't agree with our political views. It's similar to people perceiving the "world" as being any more dangerous, when in fact world crime, death, and tragedy is at a historical low.
I'm a very politically-minded person. I go to rallies. I lobby. I serve on the steering committee for my favorite grassroots organization. I had never entertained the thought that goth had anything to do with it, despite my life goal of running for office as a Democrat in a red state, while wearing my pointy boots. Great episode. Also, if any of you are in Kentucky, vote for me. :)
Will do 🦇
What political roots? Goth is a music based subculture, nothing more and nothing less. Also there are not a lot of political song in goth music. So how can you say politics are important to the subculture when it’s not.
Both modern and classic goth bands are actually quite political! Modern bands like Vision Video, Otzie, Tears for the Dying, The Bellwether Syndicate, Dystt, Secret Shame, Diavol Strain, Virgin in Veil, Totenwald, Ciern, Hapax, This Present Moment, I mean the list can literally go on and on but all these bands have songs with some political and socially activist message.
As for historical examples. Sebastion - sex gang children: In an interview with andi sex gang he was asked “is this a political anthem? It’s an anthem to me, speaking the truth on politics and religion.”
To which andi replied: you're absolutely right. It is an intensely anti-religious and politically conscious song. I usually endeavor to drape my lyrics with a veil of ambiguity, as I believe it important to allow the listener to discover their own interpretation. However, 'Sebastiane' is and had to be less ambiguous.
Killing Joke is an obvious example, but their 1980 self-titled album was very political even just from cover which was a photo of young rioters trying to escape from clouds of CS gas released by the British Army in Derry, Northern Ireland, commonly known as The Troubles, and it sets the tone for the political nature of the songs from that album.
Ignore the machine by alien sex fiend was about the ways war fueled by capitalistic greed cause widespread harm.
Dominion by the sisters is an obvious go to whenever this subject comes up (Eldritch said that song is an anti-American diatribe flavoured by the Chernobyl nuclear disaster.), but it's also worth pointing out that vision thing was a response to George Bush
Lynched by bone orchard is about exactly what you think it’s about
In the liner notes of Young Limbs and Numb Hymns, THe Batcave club was described as an iconoclast, which is someone who attacks cherished beliefs or institutions, and the batcave was also described as a challenge to the false idol of london, which is pretty blatant social commentary and again the notion of making strange ones outward appearance being a sociopolitical statement is referenced here.
I'll be making a video on this at some point in the future because there's a lot more to say on the subject and a lot more nuance that can't be captured in youtube comments such as whether or not goth music itself is the totality of what goth culture stands for. so keep a look out for that.
I also like to add that people with bigoted views tends to do what they do, because they think its the right thing.
They dont do it for no apparent reason. Their perspective is that they think that they are doing the right thing.
We had a massacre in Norway due to right wing fanatics. These things doesnt happen for no apparent reason. Its because they have been brainwashed to see everything that diverts from their views in terms of black and white. I think its important to see that.
But otherwise I think the goth Community does a great Job of taking a stand against such ideas all in all. They can become quite dangerous if they are allowed to grow
I have the book 'The open society and its enemies' by Karl Popper, that talks about issues related to tollerance for intollerance. Any thoughts?
This one sure is interesting!
Goth culture spawned from punk culture which was specifically a rebellion, opposing fascism and oppression of vulnerable groups. Goth is in the least an expression of defiance towards conformity, which addresses a very serious societal problem. You don't have to have a specific set of political ethics, but to be Goth is a political stance in that it demands free will, freedom of expression, anti-fascism.
Goth grew out of punk. Grew out of. The rebellion and opposition of things is by no means a requirement or even assumption of goth culture. That's a punk thing, not a goth thing. Goth does not express defiance toward conformity, it simply seeks to be what it is and to hell with anything that suggests otherwise. That's not defiance.
And I challenge you to describe how goth is anti-fascist. Or anti anything.
@@NephilimIncorruptus what you said !
@@markcreemore4915 That doesn't change that it did become political, or that goth is different from punk because it isn't political.
For me it is, and ist not. My life as "goth"... and my other aspects of life, have brought me years ago to be a member of the green party in germany, that has roots in the 68 and later alternative, peace, nature ceeping etc etc culture. When i'm doing something in/ with the party/party member, people see i'm goth, but it was never a thing, couse the politic work is what put the people together... and their are always people that share your ideas more, ore have other ways.... people you like much, ore not so much. When i'm together with goth scene people, its not a thing, couse only friends that know and like me as howle person know it. For many people that know/see that i'm "goth" and know i'm "green", its not a thing, couse its not that big thing any more, even in a smaller village in germany, beeing that, and their are other/more important "strings" why we work/talk..etc... together. It starts to be interessting, when i meet/work with/ talk with, conservative, nose high in the air, etc people. But hey, i'm a child of these region, and i know how to work with these people and what they like.... i dont have to like them, i dont have to spend more time with that kind of people as i have to.... so... back to how i start.... yes it is, and its not.... both. But what i think, many people in the goth culture... and even in many generations and cultures, are not very political ore very apolitical people. And i see two interessting things in germany.... some people start to be active in the "new" very conservative political party ore share ideas, and on the other side as a reaction to that, people start beeing political active in the green party... ore other like the socialdemocrats... and/ore vote it, couse they want to do something against the new very conservative. So, time becomes more political than it was.
Told you there would be trouble.
There are times when you shouldnt have to ignore what goes on out there imo. Right wing populism, mis information, religious extremism and climate Change. I think being neutral to that stuff is a form of cowardice. Im trying not to be harsh, here. I understand that for many its difficult. Especially in the US. And that theres no Quick fix. But we have to fix these issues both in the US and abroad
The existence of Goth culture is an expression born from freedom. Freedom to be one's self or if you will a possible future one has seen out of many other possible futures that one has made manifest into reality (that is freedom). Without freedom this is done precariously at best. There are apposing politics that would move to stop this like The Politics of inevitability and The Politics of Eternity. It's just where does one stand, in the aid of the culture or in opposition to the culture. That's where the political begins. Thanks to all who bring these dreadfully wonderful talks to the rest of us lost in the wilderness 🦇
This lecture best explains the point I was trying to make, the Q&A at the end is worth staying for. Thought it would be of interest
m.ruclips.net/video/-UVLO2j9M-E/видео.html