I give him credit for eating crow, not alot of sports talkshow heads would do this, definitely not the ones you see on ESPN who will have their heads so far up their ass that they won't hear anything opposing them. Good on you Zac, love watching your videos and I hope to see your take on the upcoming draft, like some "diamonds in the rough" sort of thing.
The fact you actually had the argument that changed your mind available and discussed it was really nice. Makes it clear you actually considered your opinion and aren't just flipping it because people got mad. On a side note I wanted to say cheers for getting me into football, I'm from scotland so had close to 0 contact with the NFL before your channel, the johnny manziel breakdown was my first vid iirc. This seasons been great to watch and for the first time in my life I'm dreading not having sports available to watch after the superbowl. Appreciate the effort you put in mate, you're doing great things!
Problem I have with Eli haters(Not you) Is that they blame him for the losses but never credit him for the wins? Like what? Football is a team game, the 117-117 record is not solely because of him, he’s shown that with a competent team they were perrenial winners. From 2004-2012 the Giants had 1 losing season, from 2012 to now they’ve been garbage not because of Eli, but Jerry Reese’s imcompetency to draft and left the team the way it is now.
@@jeffstut55 Exactly! Put any all time elite QB back behind those lines, and they too would only win 3-6 games max. We could make the greatest QB ever in a lab, and he wouldn't be able to make those Giant teams a success.
Cold Waters not an Eli hater, but I think he should only get in if people like Romo, Ryan, and Rivers get in. I admit he made a lot of big time throws in the playoff runs, but if Eli didn’t consistently have a great defense, they wouldn’t have even made it to Super bowls. If not for those two Super bowls no one would even consider him for HoF. In 2008, the giants had a top 5 defense in terms of yards and TDs. In 2012 they were 3rd in turnovers forced. Give Tony Romo those teams (who has the 4th best passer rating of all time), and he wins at least 2 Super bowls. Even Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers, and Matt Stafford would’ve won with those teams. Take that amazing defense away, and what was Eli’s record since 2012? 38-58... leading the league in interceptions 3 times, and being 6th all time in fumbles kept his team from being as good as they could’ve.
@@RawxIsxJericho1234 this is not a morality debate its pretty cut and dry. So there is a right answer. It's either he's a HOFer or not. You have discussions to come up with answers not to have circular arguments to appease one side or the other.
Butterbeamz Because the Giants D held one of the greatest offenses of all time to 14 points in 07-08 and the #3 scoring offense in the league to 17 in 11-12. Talking about failing to win a post season game in 14 of his 16 seasons is hardly cherry picking. Everything about Eli is completely average to below average aside from his durability and turnovers..in which he excelled. At no point in his career was he ever a top 10 QB. None. He is the definition of “meh”
He was wrong about Pat shurmur and corrected himself ...He was wrong about Eli and corrected himself...I guess he should ponder slowly before giving his NY giants takes
Everyone gets lots of things wrong about teams (even their own). At least he owns up to it when he is wrong, but he is right a lot more than some other people in the sports talk scene.
@@mikeb769 Zac is a young guy trying to balance his opinions...He can go waywards some times and that's ok...Its just that he is stubborn in his initial take and then gets corrected and changes them...Its alright hes a young pup
I love the fact that you could humble yourself and listen and actually turn your stance. Especially with a channel that’s called Strong Opinion Sports lol. I think in the case of this video you should still mention why you felt like he wasn’t. His stats do say a lot which was your original argument. Rivers has better stats but because of the moments, the Super bowl runs, and his achievements Eli is and will be a HOF.
Eli manning won the Superbowl in 2011 with a 32nd ranked run offense and a 27th ranked defense and a 9-7 record . These are still all time lows for a Superbowl winning team. He also has the single post season most yards record.
@@TBSandNFL Yes they did, but so did he. Also in 2011, the D was destroyed all year by injuries. They started getting healthy the last couple of weeks of the season going into the playoffs they were basically full strength, but rusty until they got to the SB, were they clamped down on the pats. He still had to throw for more yards in one playoff run then anyone else ever. Someone else who isn't a Giants fan, so they see highlights, and say the D carried them. Also ignore what Eli did. Sorry, but in 2011 Eli had one of the all time greatest QB seasons ever, he should have won the MVP. Also I think it was the 2011 could have been the year after but they suffered the most injuries in one season then any other team has ever dealt with.
It is close, I think he is in the limit, if he misses the HoF will not be by much if he makes it will be barely. Both ways are fine in my opinion, a lot of good arguments both sides. I agreed with booth your videos on the subject lol
Look at his numbers in his playoff runs too. The NFC championship games. All the playoff games. Beating Brady, Rodgers, Favre, Romo, Ryan, Garcia, Smith (and that crazy good 49ers defense with PWillis) allllll on the road. Legendary playoffs runs
Thanks for admitting you were wrong. I really appreciate when you admit you're wrong and don't let your feelings get in the way of listening to criticism.
Zac, I am going to disagree with you. I’ve heard this “tell the NFL story” argument quite a few times now, and I think it is a poor argument. It feels good to say that as a fan, but let me give you the counter-argument. What is the Hall of Fame? It’s a museum, where you can go and see great moments and history of the NFL. And to that criteria, I think the “tell the NFL story” would work. There should be multiple displays (at least 2) that feature Eli Manning and his Superbowls, and probably a couple other places that give him a mention. And in that sense, if I’m telling the story of the NFL as a museum would, there are so many people that would be mentioned for their great performances, their unusual attributes, their personalities, their furthering the mission and vision of the NFL, social causes, and just adding to the product that is the NFL. Folks like Tim Tebow, Colin Kaepernick, Pat Tillman, David Tyree, Ryan Leaf, Vinny Testaverde, Nick Foles, Michael Vick and Randall Cunningham. Great stories all around, great displays should be up in Canton telling those great stories. However, when we are talking about a player “getting into the Hall of Fame” we are not talking about the displays and telling the story. We are talking about inducting individuals into a special wing of the Hall of Fame. To football fans, this is a sacred place where only the best reside. On the HOF website, the criteria for being one of the chosen few is this (and I quote), “The Pro Football Hall of Fame's 48-person Selection Committee is charged with the vital task of continuing to be sure that new enshrinees are the finest the game has produced...”. This, put in proper context (which you said and I agree with) is what we are talking about when we ask the question, “is Eli Manning a Hall of Famer.” When we use that criteria, Eli Manning MUST be one of the finest players of all time. His body of work must eclipse just about everyone who has played the game. As a quarterback in the NFL, if you look at his entire career and evaluate it as objectively as possible, does he rise to the top, being one of the finest players ever? And I don’t think I need to rehash his whole career - it’s all public record and easily obtained. He was not as good as his contemporaries that he played with. Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, and Favre (early in Eli’s career) were all clearly better than Eli. Then you have a whole bunch of QB’s like Eli, Rothleisberger, Rivers, McNabb, Vick, Carson Palmer, Tony Romo, and a few up and comers like Stafford and Matt Ryan who we can debate about and compare. But how many of those do you put Eli above, and even better, are any of them truly Hall of Famers based on the HOF criteria? That’s the real debate, not “how do you tell the story”. The list of those interesting and compelling people that tell the story that I listed, are any of them Hall of Famers? You mentioned Vick yourself. I mentioned him too, but I fail to see how he is going to have a bust in Canton. He wasn’t one of the best all time and I think everyone knows that. But you can’t tell the NFL story without him. And do you want to just skip the Pat Tillman or Colin Kaepernick stories? Really? Neither will have a bust in Canton, but their stories are important. We should talk about these players, but they are not Hall of Famers. And neither is Eli, in my opinion, even though the story and emotional connection is important. He just doesn’t make it without special pleading and temporarily ignoring the Hall Of Fame criteria. And that is why it is a poor argument. By the way, my prediction is that Eli doesn’t make it year one, but there will be a big enough outcry and some lobbying by HOF Peyton Manning that he gets in year two. Sports writers who vote on this are people too, and will be susceptible to the “telling the NFL story” argument too, just as you were, and will be willing to put aside the actual criteria and proclaim another Manning as a Hall of Famer. As people, we put emotion and moments ahead of full careers. It’s ok, we are human. But I also think putting Eli in will be questioned and debated into the future, with time not being friendly to Eli’s legacy. The next generation of fans will ask, “what we’re they thinking?” And say stuff like, “he got in because his last name was Manning,” and they would have a point. Because it doesn’t add up now, and it won’t get better with time.
If you look at his individual stats his numbers scream hall of fame. top 10 all time in passing and TDs. his 117 - 117 record is a team function. on that note lets compare his teams with big ben or rivers. how many probowl lineman has Eli had in the last 8 years? how many Pro bowl running backs before SB (Do people even remember that Giants were starting Orleans Darqwa at one point). How many probowl TEs? How many top 10 defenses in the last 8 years? for him to be top 10 in any offensive stats with his supporting cast in the last 8 years is amazing.
Jude Apollon that is an interesting argument. Football is a team sport and supporting cast does make a difference, I agree. But we are talking about whether Eli is a HOF or not. And I don’t think his stats scream HOF. I think they scream mediocrity over a very long time. He has had his moments and he has played with some top talent. And he has played with bad supporting casts. In 16 years, that’s almost certainly going to happen. And it seems that he’s had good moments with good players and bad moments with bad players. Basically his whole career in my eyes once you consider the highlights and lowlights, the good and the bad, it all regresses to the mean, which is a fancy way of saying that it all balances to mediocrity over a long period of time. If a player is fortunate enough (and some would say tough enough, but there is an awful lot of luck involved) to play 16 years and basically never miss a game, your career stats are going to be pretty good. Rothleisberger and Rivers are right there or ahead of Eli in career numbers, with more Pro Bowls and wins and better all around stats than Eli. Are we putting all 3 in? I don’t think so. So as special as some feel Eli was, he wasn’t a top 5 quarterback any year he played. He just wasn’t one of the best. He was good, he had his moments, but he wasn’t one of the all time greats. And we can put some of the blame on his team, but we are not evaluating the Giants being inducted into the Hall of Fame. We are evaluating Eli. And I don’t think he makes the cut. I would not vote for him. I think enough sportswriters likely will eventually, but I will disagree and stick with what I already wrote as my reasons, unless I see better evidence or hear a better argument.
Uh yes, we actually are going to put all 3 from that draft class in. Their numbers scream Hall of Fame. All top ten in yards and touchdowns and two of them have rings. Big Ben, Rivers, and Eli are all easy Hall of Fame picks. They’re guaranteed to make the hall of fame, all of them.
@@TheGeorgeD13 that's a bold assertion. I like it, although I don't agree that they "scream" Hall of Fame. And I have to compliment you, as lots of people would not make that assertion. It's an interesting take. I don't agree, but I'll give you my thoughts on why you might turn out to be right. There are currently 26 modern-era quarterbacks - basically 26 in 60 years, or just over 4 per decade. Right now, we have Peyton, Brady, Brees and Rodgers who are locks (I don't think anyone would disagree). We have Matt Ryan and Russell Wilson up and coming. And then a whole host of young kids who will be a decade away. That's a log-jam of quarterbacks. Out of Eli, Ben and Philip, I think Ben is the best of them, and he doesn't look like he's retiring this year. So he has a great opportunity to add to his legacy. Philip probably won't retire either, so he will likely add something to his numbers. Eli right now is just barely ahead of Philip to me in overall body of work, due to his Superbowls. But not by much, as Philip was the better regular season player by a good margin. So if Eli goes into the HOF, the other two should go, no problem. Eli is the lynchpin, as he retired first and will be eligible first. If Eli doesn't go the first year or two, I think he'll get passed over and I think unless Ben and Philip do some things that greatly further their legacies, all 3 might be in trouble. In the end, I just think there are too many ahead of Eli and too many coming behind Eli for him to be a lock. And if you say all 3 need to be there, I think the standards are too low. I want the HOF to be the best of the best, and I don't think all 3 represent that. Ben with 2-3 good seasons on top of his current stats would separate himself enough to get there on his own. Philip with a Superbowl win and MVP might get him there with his excellence in the regular season and all the Pro-Bowls. Otherwise, I think we are at all-or-none and I don't think any of them should go in that case.
@@smequals Well, that's not what the hall of fame is anymore. You can get in many different ways now. You can win a few championships, you can be the best at your position by far (like Terrell Davis) for a limited time, or you can be among the best for a long time, or you can have the overall numbers. Eli has two of those considerations: the rings and the overall numbers. On top of that, he's 3rd in most consecutive starts of all time. The best ability is availability and Eli did that better than just about everybody. The Hall of Fame isn't and never will be again, a place for the best of the best of the best. If that was still the standard, I would agree, even as a Giants fan, that Eli doesn't deserve to be in the hall of fame. But that just simply isn't the standard anymore and never will be again. The problem with that kind of standard is that it will always be watered down by committees that get nostalgic and personal about players that they played against and/or played with to be objective about it.
Funny thing is Chargers have given Rivers more to work with over the years compared to what Eli has been asked to win with. He'd probably have a better resume if he had gone to SD.
Funny thing is tho is that that the chargers have had some of the worst coaches and one of the worst owners for years now. I don’t think you can blame rivers for his lack of wins. And not to mention they have had to play the patriots in the playoffs
Three people refused to play for the teams that drafted them, John Elway, Jim Kelly and Eli Manning. Jim Kelly went to the USFL. Kelly was drafted in 1983. He didnt play his first season in Buffalo until 1986.
These "cant tell NFL history without mentionin Eli" point are basically Colin (the Herd) outtakes. Maybe you should do a "Colin point of view review" segment, where you agree\take a different approach to his point&arguments?
The nfl hall of fame itself is based off of storylines it’s not Colin cowherd who started it🤦🏻♂️ the mlb hall of fame you have to be an all time great to get in, not the nfl
I completely agree with both videos that if you do have to think for a long time if they're a hall of famer they are probably not. But because Eli has won 2 Super Bowls, 2 SB MVPS, defeated the dynasty twice including their undefeated season, and one of the most memorable moments in Super Bowl history. Eli Manning is a hall of famer.
Listen Zac go back and watch the playoff games that led up to the Giant's vs Patriots Superbowl. You will see a QB named Eli Manning that played through an Ice bowl, played a 49rs defense that pulverized a QB named Eli Manning, and never once did Eli back down or not get back up. Eli Manning is as tough as they come. Never missed a start, his brother recently interview let it out that Eli would play through ankle injuries and many other injuries, the guy is tough as a door nail. He played for a team that let him down the last 6 years of his career, allowing him to be hit more times than any other QB. The Giants also didn't supply a good defense to help Eli get more wins, can't win if the other team is just going to walk right down the field and score everytime you score. Eli Manning was my Quarterback, he is a Hall of Famer, no question about it...
I 100% agree with your take on Namath and Eli, I actually made that same point in the last videos comments. It takes a very big person to keep an open mind to criticism. I appreciate your openness to change based on new information. That's what separates truly great people from others, they are willing to hear the other side of the discussion.
On the flipside of the argument, there are so many popular players today that people say should be HOFers that could easily be left out of the story of football.
Kudos to you for swallowing your pride and changing your position on Eli's HOF candidacy. For those who still don't believe he deserves to get in, listen, I get it. If you're not a Giants fan, the guy is goofy, his game wasn't pretty, and he threw a lot of picks. But he's one of only 5 QBs in the history of the league to have 2 SB MVPs, he's got the gaudy stats being top 7 in yards, TDs, and completions, he's the very definition of an ironman, and he's a class act through and through. Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he's not HOF-worthy. Use your head, not your heart. Regarding the Namath argument, yes, it's dumb. Here's a more appropriate one (courtesy of Chris Pflum of Bigblueview.com, @RaptormkII): "To anyone objecting to Eli being in the HOF, I present to you: Warren Moon Record:102-101 58% completion 49,325 passing yards 291 TD, 233 INT 1989 Man Of The Year Eli Manning Record: 117-117 60.3% completion 57,023 passing yards 366 TD, 244 INT 2016 Man Of The Year, 2020 Bart Starr 2x Super Bowl MVP I guess Moon should be evicted from the Hall..."
So cumulative stats are garbage and basically meaningless when evaluating how good a player was. Anyone can play for 239487347 years and get a ton of stats. It doesn't indicate how good you were in each particular year and whether you were helping your team or not. Joe Flacco has a billion yards/TDs but has rarely ever been a good QB. But he was just above average enough (and a bit lucky that they didn't have better options) to not get benched for most of his career. That said Eli probably deserves to be in the hall just for his 2 great seasons where he won the 2 SBs and they gave him the MVP. You could argue 1 of those MVPs was questionable but whatever. I'm good with putting him in the hall. But can we as sports fans please stop using cumulative stats in arguments. Use %s and yearly averages instead, they mean so much more.
E B but if you use yearly % obviously when they get older they are gonna get worse. It’s not fair to overlook someone entire career and base them on specific years.
@@darculas2625 you can easily say "from 2005 to 2010 they had an x% completion percentage". doesn't have to be for their whole career. just my (probably unpopular) opinion though.
I'm a bears fan. I could not deny his first Superbowl win how happy I was with the Tyree catch. Very few people humbled brady. The new York Giants and manning did. His consecutive game streak showed he was accountable to his teammates and his fans. There are very few people who held such high regard with so many cameras and negative words spouted in his direction. When push comes to shove...I vote him in because he was a great football player. The game against Alex Smith and the 49ers stands out. He took a beating. I thought I would have stayed down. He fought...he fought for wins and losses. He did his best. No matter what you do...you like to get a thank you after that.
The way I see it, if you look at the Hall of Fame as only the best players ever then Eli Manning is NOT a HOFmer but if you look at it like "you can't tell the story of the NFL without this guy then you gotta put him in, but that opens the door for more guys that don't belong
Joe Namath is 64-64-4 regular season record. Joe Namath also has 173 touchdowns to 220 interceptions. Joe Namath is a hall of famer. Eli Manning is 117-117 as a starter with 366 touchdowns to 244 Interceptions. Eli Manning is also a 2 time Super Bowl champion and super bowl MVP. Eli Manning also is top 7 in passing touchdowns and passing yards. If playing a long time cancels out his passing records then I don’t want to hear Frank Gore’s name being brought up as a Hall of Famer.
I still don't think he's a HoFer but props on you for changing your mind when you are confronted with legitimate arguments that go against your viewpoint.
I don’t know. It’s like I understand the NFL story part. It’s unique, with the beating Tom Brady twice. At the same time at his height I never really thought he was really that GREAT 🤷🏾♂️ We already have enough HOF QBs from this era. Tom, Peyton, Drew, Aaron. I can’t just feel comfortable putting Eli’s name in the middle of theirs.
Hmm, yeah I think the first think we should think for everybody that retire, is. 1-you can't tell the history without him. 2-awards 3-career stats. Then, you can be a HOF.
I think another thing you could add to his story line is how the Iron man streak was broken for Geno smith? I think it was...That was insane!, I its think worthy of adding to the story of the nfl as it was a active record at the time and the way he got benched was kinda weak IMO. Great video!
Just to add up, John Elway and Eli Manning wasn't the only players who refused to play for the franchise they were drafted. Bo Jackson also refused playing for the Bucs
Well true you don't need to mention Rivers when telling the NFL'S story in the last 20 years however, with 19 kids and counting he's going to be important for the next 20.
I was one of if not the one that brought up the Namath/Manning argument. If Namath was apart of the growth of the NFL cuz of one press conference when he guaranteed a win, Eli's done more. Namath beat a great Baltimore Colts team to give the Jets their 1st Superbowl. Eli beat a great Patriots team twice. And beat a younger Patriots team that was killing it every year. So despite the year comparison, in 07, the Pats were outscoring teams by a mile left & right. Expect the Ravens & the Giants that year. I lost my train of thought. My girl is rambling in my ear while I'm writing this. 😂
I'm a big fan of Eli(mainly because i always love teams that win championships against dinastys), but if Eli gets in the HOF, players like Nick Foles should be in too. Foles was a backup QB who won the the biggest offensive game in SB history against the biggest dinasty NFL ever seen, caught a TD(as a QB) in one of the most memorable plays in SB and finally was immortalized in a huge statue in front of the Eagles stadium, getting the status of a local legend in Philly. I'm not a Eagles fan, but if Eli gets in i demand Nick Foles gets in too.
Zac, I love that you are holding yourself accountable, but I don’t think that’s a completely sound argument. And just to clarify, I think Eli is certainly a Hall of Famer. But I think there are plenty of guys that you couldn’t tell the story of the NFL the last 20 years without that clearly aren’t Hall of Famers. Colin Kaepernick is one example, Marshawn Lynch, Joe Flacco, or even Kyle Shanahan now losing in two Super Bowls while ahead. Andrew Luck. The list goes on. All good players/coaches and impactful to the story, but not Hall of Famers. Notoriety and greatness are not always mutually inclusive.
Ian Brown Kaepernick and Shanahan are noteable for their short comings, so that eliminates them both. Other than that, none of the people left have the stats to get in. Sure, Eli was never elite, but he was a good enough to get a crap ton of yards along with tons of touchdowns.
I had a feeling you may reconsider you are too smart and analytical overall, either way its fine to have haters if that's your true opinion. Then again im glad you said this, that was my number one point from the last video, Eli is a legacy great job man
You were absolutely correct with your first assessment. Eli is not a hall of famer. Eli is an average qb whose TEAM caught fire at the right time during two playoff runs. That "can you tell the story of the NFL is a straw man argument people like to make to win the debate. Eli was never an all pro selection, never considered the best at his position at any point in his career, led the league in interceptions 3x. Come on man the hall of fame is for the best of the best. The legends of the game. I'll ask you and anybody else who believes Eli is a Hall of famer. Is Joe Flacco a hall of famer? If the answer is no then neither is Eli
because you do not have an argument if you cannot look at other people opinions he did that saw their arguments and looked at his side and saw a bunch of Eli haters where the only argument was ELI SUCKS LOOK AT THE 2017 and 2018 SEASON
I agree you can’t tell the story of the last 20-25 years without ELI. Its not just a stat thing. However, Eli is a david vs Goliath story, so other than 3-4 years, the rest of his career has been mediocre and i have never considered ELI to be in the top 5 at his position throughout his whole career and has had several years where we question why he is even Playing
Like I said in your previous comment, he is absolutely a HoFer. However, I agreed with your point that he isn't surefire, thus, is unworthy of 1st ballot honors. Your first argument was fair because only the most special players receive 1st or 2nd ballot selections. Those players are surefire, no brainers because their talent and impact on the field was indisputable. Even 3rd and 4th ballot selections are reserved for those types of players. It is when you get to the 5th, 6th, and 7th ballot selections is it prudent to induct a player like Eli. He is absolutely a HoFer for the reasons you describe, however, he was never top 5, hell, top 8 at his position, lost more than he won, but came through in the clutch often while being an iron man for a marquee franchise.
Ima keep it reel, if the reason people are putting eli in the hall of fame is based on his relevance to the story of the nfl then he deserves to be in the hall. But the standard should also be raised to get into the hall.
1. I think you should list every QB in the hof and compare them to eli Manning 2. People compare QBs by stats or by super bowl wins eli has both and it is not because of his defense 3. He led the giants from the 6th seed in one of the greatest runs by a wildcard team ever to beat the till that point undefeated patriots
Damn if Eli gets to go to the hall of fame then Phil definitely should, that hurts. Phil has 10k more yards than Eli, 31 more TDs, had a higher completion percentage, QBR is better by 11 points, played for a worse team than Eli... 224 consecutive starts? That's insane! They both joined the NFL in the same year, but Phil played all of last season and Eli didn't, plus Phil may or may not play another season next year, whereas Eli has already retired. Phil has better numbers, worse supporting cast, more longevity, absolutely deserves to go to the hall of fame if Eli's going
I don't understand the HOF arguments this early into his retirement. People's judgement on this are clouded and only time will give Eli a fair shakedown (in or not).
the way he came into the league means nothing. lots of players have interesting entrances to the league. the notion you cant tell the story of the league without him doesn't mean much either. a lot of players are in the hof but are barely memorable. its because they were the best against their peers when they played. thats the whole points. people are foolishly making up new absurd arguments to justify the average lucky qb from getting into the hof when he only had 1 or 2 seasons as a top 10 qb (2011-2012). him those superbowls with his defensive lines is why he belongs in the giants hall of fame. not the hall of fame. its disappointed zac got swayed by such a weak argument.
how do you lead the league in interceptions 3 times, never lead the league in yards, tds, nor completions, and only have a couple of runs to a superbowl and be called: HOF?
Imagine that instead of winning those two Super Bowls, he lost them both in the most embarassing fashion. Imagine trying to run the clock out with a lead, he accidentally butt fumbles and the Patriots recover, return it for a touchdown and win in the last second, both games. Could you tell the story of the last 20 years without mentioning Eli? I sure hope not, if you're a decent story teller. But in that case, you definitely don't put him into the Hall of Fame. I appreciate you changing your mind. I agree Eli deserves to be in the Hall. I think it has something to do with his role in the "story" but that isn't a full explanation. When we say that they belong because of the "story" we are implicitly saying that the role in the story was a good one. They were great in some way. For some players, it was because their stats and performance consistently made them outliers. For others, like Eli, it had more to do with when and how they were great. He was greatest when the story was most interesting. So, it is not just that you can't tell the story without mentioning Eli, it is that you can't tell the story without mentioning Eli being great. If Tyree had to make the helmet catch because Manning threw a bad pass, it still becomes lore, but not a Hall of Fame point for Eli. As absurd as the actual catch was in itself, you can't really tell that story without discussing how a relatively immobile QB manages to keep the play alive at least 5 seconds after everyone watching gave up on it. It is a great story you have to tell and Eli is in it. But more importantly, he is great in it. And we are probably also assuming that they were also generally good. Nobody is arguing Tyree gets in. The story angle pushes him into the Hall, but that is only because he is great in that story and good in his career. So, again, I appreciate the change of the opinion but I think chalking it up purely to whether you could tell the "story" without him still short changes Eli's career. Then again, I'm an irrational Giants fan who would probably vote Joe Morris into the Hall if given the chance, so maybe I'm not to be trusted.
If the question was asked before he announced his retirement the majority would have said No. Now they say yes because they are having an emotional response. Is it fair to say he was an above average QB for at least 25% of his career? Then that alone should not qualify someone for Hall of Fame credintials. He made the Pro Bowl only 4 times and broke no NFL records. Eli being part of something special for the past 20 years does not also qualify him because now you are incinuating he's in there by default. I think you made a mistake changing your mind and I'm asking you to not be a prisoner of the moment and to reconsider your decision. Edited 1-31-20. I know and understand you can't reconsider your decision and I respect that. You do have a great show and keep up the good work 👍.
It's hard to admit that you were wrong much respect for it as to speak to your bad argument as you said context is important. Most of the reasons people give for Keeping Eli out are his stats so in that argument comparisons are valid
I give him credit for eating crow, not alot of sports talkshow heads would do this, definitely not the ones you see on ESPN who will have their heads so far up their ass that they won't hear anything opposing them.
Good on you Zac, love watching your videos and I hope to see your take on the upcoming draft, like some "diamonds in the rough" sort of thing.
Zach
@@TheGeorgeD13 why is that?
The fact you actually had the argument that changed your mind available and discussed it was really nice. Makes it clear you actually considered your opinion and aren't just flipping it because people got mad.
On a side note I wanted to say cheers for getting me into football, I'm from scotland so had close to 0 contact with the NFL before your channel, the johnny manziel breakdown was my first vid iirc. This seasons been great to watch and for the first time in my life I'm dreading not having sports available to watch after the superbowl. Appreciate the effort you put in mate, you're doing great things!
The XFL starts the week after the Super Bowl!
Problem I have with Eli haters(Not you) Is that they blame him for the losses but never credit him for the wins? Like what? Football is a team game, the 117-117 record is not solely because of him, he’s shown that with a competent team they were perrenial winners. From 2004-2012 the Giants had 1 losing season, from 2012 to now they’ve been garbage not because of Eli, but Jerry Reese’s imcompetency to draft and left the team the way it is now.
Also are we not gonna mention that from 2012-2018 the Giants basically had dogshit offensive lines
@@jeffstut55 Exactly! Put any all time elite QB back behind those lines, and they too would only win 3-6 games max. We could make the greatest QB ever in a lab, and he wouldn't be able to make those Giant teams a success.
Cold Waters not an Eli hater, but I think he should only get in if people like Romo, Ryan, and Rivers get in. I admit he made a lot of big time throws in the playoff runs, but if Eli didn’t consistently have a great defense, they wouldn’t have even made it to Super bowls. If not for those two Super bowls no one would even consider him for HoF.
In 2008, the giants had a top 5 defense in terms of yards and TDs. In 2012 they were 3rd in turnovers forced. Give Tony Romo those teams (who has the 4th best passer rating of all time), and he wins at least 2 Super bowls. Even Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers, and Matt Stafford would’ve won with those teams. Take that amazing defense away, and what was Eli’s record since 2012? 38-58... leading the league in interceptions 3 times, and being 6th all time in fumbles kept his team from being as good as they could’ve.
@@mattslaymaker4 ??? the giants 2011 defense was literally the worst ranked defense to ever win a super bowl get outta here haha
Poké Master Nappa Rivers and Romo should get in for carrying trash teams. Idk about Ryan.
You're a real one for this
cineward or a fake one .. for turning his ‘strong opinion’ in a day.
Jacob Paulette This is better than the talking heads who never admit when they're wrong and just look stupid.
How is he a real one for caping to giants fanboys who are romanticizing eli's career
j skully There's no "right" answer here. It's a discussion and he's showing that he's willing to have one.
@@RawxIsxJericho1234 this is not a morality debate its pretty cut and dry. So there is a right answer. It's either he's a HOFer or not. You have discussions to come up with answers not to have circular arguments to appease one side or the other.
You missed the most important reason Eli belongs in the HOF. Two words - Dirty Dancing.
Best Super Bowl commercial ever
Eli Manning will go down like Beowulf, the dragon slayer, did what nobody else could, and that is worth remembering
What did he do that no one else could do?
Not win a playoff game in 14 of 16 seasons and still keep his job?
@@mrwilson6108 Nice cherry pick. You fail to mention that in those two seasons he won a super bowl against great teams.
Butterbeamz Because the Giants D held one of the greatest offenses of all time to 14 points in 07-08 and the #3 scoring offense in the league to 17 in 11-12.
Talking about failing to win a post season game in 14 of his 16 seasons is hardly cherry picking.
Everything about Eli is completely average to below average aside from his durability and turnovers..in which he excelled.
At no point in his career was he ever a top 10 QB. None.
He is the definition of “meh”
Grindel wasn't a dragon, but that's a very fun point
Jonathan King If you disagree with me why bother responding to my post?
It’s called a debate
He was wrong about Pat shurmur and corrected himself ...He was wrong about Eli and corrected himself...I guess he should ponder slowly before giving his NY giants takes
Everyone gets lots of things wrong about teams (even their own). At least he owns up to it when he is wrong, but he is right a lot more than some other people in the sports talk scene.
Zac really needs to check his opinions against another person. Alot of his takes come from having a very general knowledge of a subject
He’s a giants fan Incase you didn’t know. Eli belongs in the HOF.
@@mikeb769 He has said many times that he's not a fan of any team just football
@@mikeb769 Zac is a young guy trying to balance his opinions...He can go waywards some times and that's ok...Its just that he is stubborn in his initial take and then gets corrected and changes them...Its alright hes a young pup
I love the fact that you could humble yourself and listen and actually turn your stance. Especially with a channel that’s called Strong Opinion Sports lol. I think in the case of this video you should still mention why you felt like he wasn’t. His stats do say a lot which was your original argument. Rivers has better stats but because of the moments, the Super bowl runs, and his achievements Eli is and will be a HOF.
Who wants to draft an eli manning, tbh it's too easy to get in nowdays . I agree there is an argument in favour tho.
Eli manning won the Superbowl in 2011 with a 32nd ranked run offense and a 27th ranked defense and a 9-7 record . These are still all time lows for a Superbowl winning team. He also has the single post season most yards record.
He also during that playoff run threw for 1219 yards. The most of any QB all time in one playoff run.
@@punkem733
In 4 games, QBs who have skipped the wildcard game have come within 100 yards of crushing that record....it means nothing.
His defense held the Patriots, averaging 37 PPG to 14 in 2007
In 2011, averaging 32 PPG to 17 PPG in 2011.
His defense stepped up, period.
@@TBSandNFL Yes they did, but so did he. Also in 2011, the D was destroyed all year by injuries. They started getting healthy the last couple of weeks of the season going into the playoffs they were basically full strength, but rusty until they got to the SB, were they clamped down on the pats. He still had to throw for more yards in one playoff run then anyone else ever.
Someone else who isn't a Giants fan, so they see highlights, and say the D carried them. Also ignore what Eli did. Sorry, but in 2011 Eli had one of the all time greatest QB seasons ever, he should have won the MVP.
Also I think it was the 2011 could have been the year after but they suffered the most injuries in one season then any other team has ever dealt with.
@@TBSandNFL So bottom line, hater, who still has the record? 🙄😄
It is close, I think he is in the limit, if he misses the HoF will not be by much if he makes it will be barely.
Both ways are fine in my opinion, a lot of good arguments both sides.
I agreed with booth your videos on the subject lol
MrScarduelli just like frank gore even though he should be 1st ballot
Look at his numbers in his playoff runs too. The NFC championship games. All the playoff games. Beating Brady, Rodgers, Favre, Romo, Ryan, Garcia, Smith (and that crazy good 49ers defense with PWillis) allllll on the road. Legendary playoffs runs
True integrity move! You’re just earned one more subscriber!!
You deserve to be in the hall of fame if you’re a legend.
Eli is a fuckin legend my friend
Thanks for admitting you were wrong. I really appreciate when you admit you're wrong and don't let your feelings get in the way of listening to criticism.
He's definitely wrong about one of these opinions; that's for sure
I love your stuff man but boy howdy do you talk in circles and reiterate points.
We don’t hate u zac. U know the internet everyone got a loose tongue but we still listen and appreciate ur opinion👍🏼. Keep it up. Much love
Zac, I am going to disagree with you. I’ve heard this “tell the NFL story” argument quite a few times now, and I think it is a poor argument. It feels good to say that as a fan, but let me give you the counter-argument.
What is the Hall of Fame? It’s a museum, where you can go and see great moments and history of the NFL. And to that criteria, I think the “tell the NFL story” would work. There should be multiple displays (at least 2) that feature Eli Manning and his Superbowls, and probably a couple other places that give him a mention. And in that sense, if I’m telling the story of the NFL as a museum would, there are so many people that would be mentioned for their great performances, their unusual attributes, their personalities, their furthering the mission and vision of the NFL, social causes, and just adding to the product that is the NFL. Folks like Tim Tebow, Colin Kaepernick, Pat Tillman, David Tyree, Ryan Leaf, Vinny Testaverde, Nick Foles, Michael Vick and Randall Cunningham. Great stories all around, great displays should be up in Canton telling those great stories.
However, when we are talking about a player “getting into the Hall of Fame” we are not talking about the displays and telling the story. We are talking about inducting individuals into a special wing of the Hall of Fame. To football fans, this is a sacred place where only the best reside. On the HOF website, the criteria for being one of the chosen few is this (and I quote), “The Pro Football Hall of Fame's 48-person Selection Committee is charged with the vital task of continuing to be sure that new enshrinees are the finest the game has produced...”. This, put in proper context (which you said and I agree with) is what we are talking about when we ask the question, “is Eli Manning a Hall of Famer.”
When we use that criteria, Eli Manning MUST be one of the finest players of all time. His body of work must eclipse just about everyone who has played the game. As a quarterback in the NFL, if you look at his entire career and evaluate it as objectively as possible, does he rise to the top, being one of the finest players ever? And I don’t think I need to rehash his whole career - it’s all public record and easily obtained. He was not as good as his contemporaries that he played with. Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, and Favre (early in Eli’s career) were all clearly better than Eli. Then you have a whole bunch of QB’s like Eli, Rothleisberger, Rivers, McNabb, Vick, Carson Palmer, Tony Romo, and a few up and comers like Stafford and Matt Ryan who we can debate about and compare. But how many of those do you put Eli above, and even better, are any of them truly Hall of Famers based on the HOF criteria?
That’s the real debate, not “how do you tell the story”. The list of those interesting and compelling people that tell the story that I listed, are any of them Hall of Famers? You mentioned Vick yourself. I mentioned him too, but I fail to see how he is going to have a bust in Canton. He wasn’t one of the best all time and I think everyone knows that. But you can’t tell the NFL story without him. And do you want to just skip the Pat Tillman or Colin Kaepernick stories? Really? Neither will have a bust in Canton, but their stories are important. We should talk about these players, but they are not Hall of Famers. And neither is Eli, in my opinion, even though the story and emotional connection is important. He just doesn’t make it without special pleading and temporarily ignoring the Hall Of Fame criteria.
And that is why it is a poor argument.
By the way, my prediction is that Eli doesn’t make it year one, but there will be a big enough outcry and some lobbying by HOF Peyton Manning that he gets in year two. Sports writers who vote on this are people too, and will be susceptible to the “telling the NFL story” argument too, just as you were, and will be willing to put aside the actual criteria and proclaim another Manning as a Hall of Famer. As people, we put emotion and moments ahead of full careers. It’s ok, we are human. But I also think putting Eli in will be questioned and debated into the future, with time not being friendly to Eli’s legacy. The next generation of fans will ask, “what we’re they thinking?” And say stuff like, “he got in because his last name was Manning,” and they would have a point. Because it doesn’t add up now, and it won’t get better with time.
If you look at his individual stats his numbers scream hall of fame. top 10 all time in passing and TDs. his 117 - 117 record is a team function. on that note lets compare his teams with big ben or rivers. how many probowl lineman has Eli had in the last 8 years? how many Pro bowl running backs before SB (Do people even remember that Giants were starting Orleans Darqwa at one point). How many probowl TEs? How many top 10 defenses in the last 8 years? for him to be top 10 in any offensive stats with his supporting cast in the last 8 years is amazing.
Jude Apollon that is an interesting argument. Football is a team sport and supporting cast does make a difference, I agree. But we are talking about whether Eli is a HOF or not. And I don’t think his stats scream HOF. I think they scream mediocrity over a very long time. He has had his moments and he has played with some top talent. And he has played with bad supporting casts. In 16 years, that’s almost certainly going to happen. And it seems that he’s had good moments with good players and bad moments with bad players. Basically his whole career in my eyes once you consider the highlights and lowlights, the good and the bad, it all regresses to the mean, which is a fancy way of saying that it all balances to mediocrity over a long period of time. If a player is fortunate enough (and some would say tough enough, but there is an awful lot of luck involved) to play 16 years and basically never miss a game, your career stats are going to be pretty good. Rothleisberger and Rivers are right there or ahead of Eli in career numbers, with more Pro Bowls and wins and better all around stats than Eli. Are we putting all 3 in? I don’t think so. So as special as some feel Eli was, he wasn’t a top 5 quarterback any year he played. He just wasn’t one of the best. He was good, he had his moments, but he wasn’t one of the all time greats. And we can put some of the blame on his team, but we are not evaluating the Giants being inducted into the Hall of Fame. We are evaluating Eli. And I don’t think he makes the cut. I would not vote for him. I think enough sportswriters likely will eventually, but I will disagree and stick with what I already wrote as my reasons, unless I see better evidence or hear a better argument.
Uh yes, we actually are going to put all 3 from that draft class in. Their numbers scream Hall of Fame. All top ten in yards and touchdowns and two of them have rings.
Big Ben, Rivers, and Eli are all easy Hall of Fame picks.
They’re guaranteed to make the hall of fame, all of them.
@@TheGeorgeD13 that's a bold assertion. I like it, although I don't agree that they "scream" Hall of Fame. And I have to compliment you, as lots of people would not make that assertion. It's an interesting take. I don't agree, but I'll give you my thoughts on why you might turn out to be right.
There are currently 26 modern-era quarterbacks - basically 26 in 60 years, or just over 4 per decade. Right now, we have Peyton, Brady, Brees and Rodgers who are locks (I don't think anyone would disagree). We have Matt Ryan and Russell Wilson up and coming. And then a whole host of young kids who will be a decade away. That's a log-jam of quarterbacks.
Out of Eli, Ben and Philip, I think Ben is the best of them, and he doesn't look like he's retiring this year. So he has a great opportunity to add to his legacy. Philip probably won't retire either, so he will likely add something to his numbers. Eli right now is just barely ahead of Philip to me in overall body of work, due to his Superbowls. But not by much, as Philip was the better regular season player by a good margin. So if Eli goes into the HOF, the other two should go, no problem. Eli is the lynchpin, as he retired first and will be eligible first. If Eli doesn't go the first year or two, I think he'll get passed over and I think unless Ben and Philip do some things that greatly further their legacies, all 3 might be in trouble.
In the end, I just think there are too many ahead of Eli and too many coming behind Eli for him to be a lock. And if you say all 3 need to be there, I think the standards are too low. I want the HOF to be the best of the best, and I don't think all 3 represent that. Ben with 2-3 good seasons on top of his current stats would separate himself enough to get there on his own. Philip with a Superbowl win and MVP might get him there with his excellence in the regular season and all the Pro-Bowls. Otherwise, I think we are at all-or-none and I don't think any of them should go in that case.
@@smequals Well, that's not what the hall of fame is anymore. You can get in many different ways now. You can win a few championships, you can be the best at your position by far (like Terrell Davis) for a limited time, or you can be among the best for a long time, or you can have the overall numbers. Eli has two of those considerations: the rings and the overall numbers. On top of that, he's 3rd in most consecutive starts of all time. The best ability is availability and Eli did that better than just about everybody.
The Hall of Fame isn't and never will be again, a place for the best of the best of the best. If that was still the standard, I would agree, even as a Giants fan, that Eli doesn't deserve to be in the hall of fame.
But that just simply isn't the standard anymore and never will be again.
The problem with that kind of standard is that it will always be watered down by committees that get nostalgic and personal about players that they played against and/or played with to be objective about it.
You're an excellent youtuber. Your content is fantastic your intentions and knowledge are genuine and your opinion changes like all of ours.
it really was a different era for joe Namath. He was named MVP during a year where he threw more interceptions than touchdowns.
Funny thing is Chargers have given Rivers more to work with over the years compared to what Eli has been asked to win with. He'd probably have a better resume if he had gone to SD.
Possibly. Their numbers, to be honest are very similar. Warm weather QBs also almost always put up better numbers on average than cold weather QBs.
Also in 2006 I think the chargers had the best O, and D in the NFL, they got bounced in the first round easily.
Funny thing is tho is that that the chargers have had some of the worst coaches and one of the worst owners for years now. I don’t think you can blame rivers for his lack of wins. And not to mention they have had to play the patriots in the playoffs
@@JTYoung05 Truer, but still he had the BEST O and D that one year. you can't ask for more then that.
I respect you so much more for listening and being willing to change your mind
This is why I watch this show, he approaches this video with the mindset of "let's reevaluate." Great way to tackle that kind of hate!
So glad to hear someone on the internet listen and be the bigger man, and admit he had a genuine change in opinion.
Three people refused to play for the teams that drafted them, John Elway, Jim Kelly and Eli Manning. Jim Kelly went to the USFL. Kelly was drafted in 1983. He didnt play his first season in Buffalo until 1986.
The biggest difference between Eli Manning and Phillip Rivers is Manning having 2 Super Bowl rings and Rivers has the stats. That's how i look at it.
Joe Namath wasn't just a QB, he was basically offensive coach and calling all the plays at the line, during his Superbowl victory.
These "cant tell NFL history without mentionin Eli" point are basically Colin (the Herd) outtakes.
Maybe you should do a "Colin point of view review" segment, where you agree\take a different approach to his point&arguments?
The nfl hall of fame itself is based off of storylines it’s not Colin cowherd who started it🤦🏻♂️ the mlb hall of fame you have to be an all time great to get in, not the nfl
This video was super respectable and not sure I’d be that guy to say hey youknow I got you I’m wrong - subscribed
Superbowl 42 alone earned Eli his Jacket!
I completely agree with both videos that if you do have to think for a long time if they're a hall of famer they are probably not. But because Eli has won 2 Super Bowls, 2 SB MVPS, defeated the dynasty twice including their undefeated season, and one of the most memorable moments in Super Bowl history. Eli Manning is a hall of famer.
What about the opposite, where people try to keep people out who deserve to be in ?
Finally someone recognizes, yes mike Vick deserves to be in the HOF
Great video, I was on the edge but this argument sways me towards Eli belonging in Canton
The key is Eli never had another hof player on offense.
I say the same thing to everyone who disagrees with me, “can’t tell the story of the NFL without Eli Manning”.
Listen Zac go back and watch the playoff games that led up to the Giant's vs Patriots Superbowl. You will see a QB named Eli Manning that played through an Ice bowl, played a 49rs defense that pulverized a QB named Eli Manning, and never once did Eli back down or not get back up. Eli Manning is as tough as they come. Never missed a start, his brother recently interview let it out that Eli would play through ankle injuries and many other injuries, the guy is tough as a door nail. He played for a team that let him down the last 6 years of his career, allowing him to be hit more times than any other QB. The Giants also didn't supply a good defense to help Eli get more wins, can't win if the other team is just going to walk right down the field and score everytime you score. Eli Manning was my Quarterback, he is a Hall of Famer, no question about it...
2:01
You were right with Quarterback, but Bo Jackson also refused to play for Tampa Bay in the 86 draft.
I 100% agree with your take on Namath and Eli, I actually made that same point in the last videos comments. It takes a very big person to keep an open mind to criticism. I appreciate your openness to change based on new information. That's what separates truly great people from others, they are willing to hear the other side of the discussion.
On the flipside of the argument, there are so many popular players today that people say should be HOFers that could easily be left out of the story of football.
He is a HOF. Two superbowls, tough as nails. Happy to see him retire with the new york crowd standing and cheering.
2:00 Bo jackson did as well
Sam Knight bo Jackson wasn’t a quarterback
James Livermore no shit he said “player”
Takes a big man to admit he was wrong
I agree zac. Best of the best should be the only ones to get into the hall of fame. It's gotten weak letting so many people in that dont deserve it.
Kudos to you for swallowing your pride and changing your position on Eli's HOF candidacy.
For those who still don't believe he deserves to get in, listen, I get it. If you're not a Giants fan, the guy is goofy, his game wasn't pretty, and he threw a lot of picks. But he's one of only 5 QBs in the history of the league to have 2 SB MVPs, he's got the gaudy stats being top 7 in yards, TDs, and completions, he's the very definition of an ironman, and he's a class act through and through.
Just because you don't like him doesn't mean he's not HOF-worthy. Use your head, not your heart.
Regarding the Namath argument, yes, it's dumb. Here's a more appropriate one (courtesy of Chris Pflum of Bigblueview.com, @RaptormkII):
"To anyone objecting to Eli being in the HOF, I present to you:
Warren Moon
Record:102-101
58% completion
49,325 passing yards
291 TD, 233 INT
1989 Man Of The Year
Eli Manning
Record: 117-117
60.3% completion
57,023 passing yards
366 TD, 244 INT
2016 Man Of The Year, 2020 Bart Starr
2x Super Bowl MVP
I guess Moon should be evicted from the Hall..."
So cumulative stats are garbage and basically meaningless when evaluating how good a player was. Anyone can play for 239487347 years and get a ton of stats. It doesn't indicate how good you were in each particular year and whether you were helping your team or not. Joe Flacco has a billion yards/TDs but has rarely ever been a good QB. But he was just above average enough (and a bit lucky that they didn't have better options) to not get benched for most of his career.
That said Eli probably deserves to be in the hall just for his 2 great seasons where he won the 2 SBs and they gave him the MVP. You could argue 1 of those MVPs was questionable but whatever. I'm good with putting him in the hall. But can we as sports fans please stop using cumulative stats in arguments. Use %s and yearly averages instead, they mean so much more.
E B but if you use yearly % obviously when they get older they are gonna get worse. It’s not fair to overlook someone entire career and base them on specific years.
@@darculas2625 you can easily say "from 2005 to 2010 they had an x% completion percentage". doesn't have to be for their whole career. just my (probably unpopular) opinion though.
I don't think you can tell the story of the NFL in the past 20 years without mentioning Philip Rivers due to his ACL game in the AFC championship
I'm a bears fan. I could not deny his first Superbowl win how happy I was with the Tyree catch. Very few people humbled brady. The new York Giants and manning did. His consecutive game streak showed he was accountable to his teammates and his fans. There are very few people who held such high regard with so many cameras and negative words spouted in his direction. When push comes to shove...I vote him in because he was a great football player. The game against Alex Smith and the 49ers stands out. He took a beating. I thought I would have stayed down. He fought...he fought for wins and losses. He did his best. No matter what you do...you like to get a thank you after that.
Thank you Zac
Thank you, 100% agree with you on this
The one guy who admits his wrong takes
Can't talk about the history of the NFL without mentioning Manziel Mania or Tebow, doesn't make them HoF
Qb's
Would be pretty easy to not mention Manziel. Probably the same without Tebow.
You don’t have to mention them at all. They were interesting but unimportant
Yeah as an all time bust in the nfl
The way I see it, if you look at the Hall of Fame as only the best players ever then Eli Manning is NOT a HOFmer but if you look at it like "you can't tell the story of the NFL without this guy then you gotta put him in, but that opens the door for more guys that don't belong
Joe Namath is 64-64-4 regular season record. Joe Namath also has 173 touchdowns to 220 interceptions. Joe Namath is a hall of famer. Eli Manning is 117-117 as a starter with 366 touchdowns to 244 Interceptions. Eli Manning is also a 2 time Super Bowl champion and super bowl MVP. Eli Manning also is top 7 in passing touchdowns and passing yards. If playing a long time cancels out his passing records then I don’t want to hear Frank Gore’s name being brought up as a Hall of Famer.
I still don't think he's a HoFer but props on you for changing your mind when you are confronted with legitimate arguments that go against your viewpoint.
Eli Manning is top ten in the top passing categories without playing without any other Hof players on offense. Definitely Hall of famer
I don’t know. It’s like I understand the NFL story part. It’s unique, with the beating Tom Brady twice. At the same time at his height I never really thought he was really that GREAT 🤷🏾♂️ We already have enough HOF QBs from this era. Tom, Peyton, Drew, Aaron. I can’t just feel comfortable putting Eli’s name in the middle of theirs.
Even if you disagree, they wrong for saying you're stupid or something like that
Hmm, yeah I think the first think we should think for everybody that retire, is.
1-you can't tell the history without him.
2-awards
3-career stats.
Then, you can be a HOF.
Championships> career stats imo. Though Eli has both anyway. He's top ten all time in several passing categories.
@AZ 2 super bowl MVPS tho so he was the best player on the field in both those games
I think another thing you could add to his story line is how the Iron man streak was broken for Geno smith? I think it was...That was insane!, I its think worthy of adding to the story of the nfl as it was a active record at the time and the way he got benched was kinda weak IMO. Great video!
Just to add up, John Elway and Eli Manning wasn't the only players who refused to play for the franchise they were drafted. Bo Jackson also refused playing for the Bucs
I respect your opinion about the HOF and yes you were wrong about Eli
So should David Tyree be in the Hall of Fame too? You know, the guy who actually made the helmet catch...
Eli Manning is first ballot 🚫🧢
Well true you don't need to mention Rivers when telling the NFL'S story in the last 20 years however, with 19 kids and counting he's going to be important for the next 20.
Guy, educating you and having strong opinions is not hate. With your logic that video you made about Eli is then hate itself!
I disagree with this argument, because by this standard Nick Foles is a HOF.
Eli manning stayed on one team and has a crazy draft story tho
Foles only won once and he’s never lead a team for a full season
Giants fan, but Phillip Rivers deserves the hall of fame induction
I was one of if not the one that brought up the Namath/Manning argument. If Namath was apart of the growth of the NFL cuz of one press conference when he guaranteed a win, Eli's done more. Namath beat a great Baltimore Colts team to give the Jets their 1st Superbowl. Eli beat a great Patriots team twice. And beat a younger Patriots team that was killing it every year. So despite the year comparison, in 07, the Pats were outscoring teams by a mile left & right. Expect the Ravens & the Giants that year. I lost my train of thought. My girl is rambling in my ear while I'm writing this. 😂
You were right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Congrats man, it's not easy to say you were wrong 😊
I'm a big fan of Eli(mainly because i always love teams that win championships against dinastys), but if Eli gets in the HOF, players like Nick Foles should be in too. Foles was a backup QB who won the the biggest offensive game in SB history against the biggest dinasty NFL ever seen, caught a TD(as a QB) in one of the most memorable plays in SB and finally was immortalized in a huge statue in front of the Eagles stadium, getting the status of a local legend in Philly. I'm not a Eagles fan, but if Eli gets in i demand Nick Foles gets in too.
Zac, I love that you are holding yourself accountable, but I don’t think that’s a completely sound argument. And just to clarify, I think Eli is certainly a Hall of Famer. But I think there are plenty of guys that you couldn’t tell the story of the NFL the last 20 years without that clearly aren’t Hall of Famers. Colin Kaepernick is one example, Marshawn Lynch, Joe Flacco, or even Kyle Shanahan now losing in two Super Bowls while ahead. Andrew Luck. The list goes on. All good players/coaches and impactful to the story, but not Hall of Famers.
Notoriety and greatness are not always mutually inclusive.
Ian Brown Kaepernick and Shanahan are noteable for their short comings, so that eliminates them both. Other than that, none of the people left have the stats to get in. Sure, Eli was never elite, but he was a good enough to get a crap ton of yards along with tons of touchdowns.
I had a feeling you may reconsider you are too smart and analytical overall, either way its fine to have haters if that's your true opinion. Then again im glad you said this, that was my number one point from the last video, Eli is a legacy great job man
Thanks for this I was mad at u
You were absolutely correct with your first assessment. Eli is not a hall of famer. Eli is an average qb whose TEAM caught fire at the right time during two playoff runs. That "can you tell the story of the NFL is a straw man argument people like to make to win the debate. Eli was never an all pro selection, never considered the best at his position at any point in his career, led the league in interceptions 3x. Come on man the hall of fame is for the best of the best. The legends of the game. I'll ask you and anybody else who believes Eli is a Hall of famer. Is Joe Flacco a hall of famer? If the answer is no then neither is Eli
116-115 career record disqualifies you as a HOFer
Yall also forget Eli won to superbowls before Peyton won his 2nd
But you told it from your perspective. WHY change because of some grown men in their feelings?
because you do not have an argument if you cannot look at other people opinions he did that saw their arguments and looked at his side and saw a bunch of Eli haters where the only argument was ELI SUCKS LOOK AT THE 2017 and 2018 SEASON
I agree you can’t tell the story of the last 20-25 years without ELI. Its not just a stat thing. However, Eli is a david vs Goliath story, so other than 3-4 years, the rest of his career has been mediocre and i have never considered ELI to be in the top 5 at his position throughout his whole career and has had several years where we question why he is even
Playing
I wonder if this guy with a tom brady profile picture just resents eli manning for shitting in his feelings twice🤔🤨
Bo Jackson also refused to play for the U s when they drafted him
Like I said in your previous comment, he is absolutely a HoFer. However, I agreed with your point that he isn't surefire, thus, is unworthy of 1st ballot honors. Your first argument was fair because only the most special players receive 1st or 2nd ballot selections. Those players are surefire, no brainers because their talent and impact on the field was indisputable. Even 3rd and 4th ballot selections are reserved for those types of players. It is when you get to the 5th, 6th, and 7th ballot selections is it prudent to induct a player like Eli. He is absolutely a HoFer for the reasons you describe, however, he was never top 5, hell, top 8 at his position, lost more than he won, but came through in the clutch often while being an iron man for a marquee franchise.
The E -HIVE, stung your ass. Eli is a compiler with 2 SB rings and 2 SB MVPs. He's in.
Ima keep it reel, if the reason people are putting eli in the hall of fame is based on his relevance to the story of the nfl then he deserves to be in the hall. But the standard should also be raised to get into the hall.
1. I think you should list every QB in the hof and compare them to eli Manning 2. People compare QBs by stats or by super bowl wins eli has both and it is not because of his defense
3. He led the giants from the 6th seed in one of the greatest runs by a wildcard team ever to beat the till that point undefeated patriots
They were a 5 seed in 07.
Damn if Eli gets to go to the hall of fame then Phil definitely should, that hurts. Phil has 10k more yards than Eli, 31 more TDs, had a higher completion percentage, QBR is better by 11 points, played for a worse team than Eli... 224 consecutive starts? That's insane! They both joined the NFL in the same year, but Phil played all of last season and Eli didn't, plus Phil may or may not play another season next year, whereas Eli has already retired. Phil has better numbers, worse supporting cast, more longevity, absolutely deserves to go to the hall of fame if Eli's going
Escaped 4 sacks
I don't understand the HOF arguments this early into his retirement. People's judgement on this are clouded and only time will give Eli a fair shakedown (in or not).
I’m pretty sure Bo Jackson said he wasn’t going to play for the bucanneers so there are those 3
Bo Jackson refused to play for the bucs and just play baseball for a year til the raiders drafted him a year later
Based on what you saying Vick is a hall of famer...and he not 😂😂😂
Here's a fun conundrum...can you tell the story of the last 20 years in the NFL without Donovan McNabb?
Phillip rivers is in the hall of very ok
the way he came into the league means nothing. lots of players have interesting entrances to the league. the notion you cant tell the story of the league without him doesn't mean much either. a lot of players are in the hof but are barely memorable. its because they were the best against their peers when they played. thats the whole points. people are foolishly making up new absurd arguments to justify the average lucky qb from getting into the hof when he only had 1 or 2 seasons as a top 10 qb (2011-2012). him those superbowls with his defensive lines is why he belongs in the giants hall of fame. not the hall of fame.
its disappointed zac got swayed by such a weak argument.
Bo Jackson also said no to Tampa when he got drafted
how do you lead the league in interceptions 3 times, never lead the league in yards, tds, nor completions, and only have a couple of runs to a superbowl and be called: HOF?
Didn’t Bo Jackson refuse to play for the Buccaneers when they drafted him
Imagine that instead of winning those two Super Bowls, he lost them both in the most embarassing fashion. Imagine trying to run the clock out with a lead, he accidentally butt fumbles and the Patriots recover, return it for a touchdown and win in the last second, both games. Could you tell the story of the last 20 years without mentioning Eli? I sure hope not, if you're a decent story teller. But in that case, you definitely don't put him into the Hall of Fame. I appreciate you changing your mind. I agree Eli deserves to be in the Hall. I think it has something to do with his role in the "story" but that isn't a full explanation. When we say that they belong because of the "story" we are implicitly saying that the role in the story was a good one. They were great in some way. For some players, it was because their stats and performance consistently made them outliers. For others, like Eli, it had more to do with when and how they were great. He was greatest when the story was most interesting. So, it is not just that you can't tell the story without mentioning Eli, it is that you can't tell the story without mentioning Eli being great. If Tyree had to make the helmet catch because Manning threw a bad pass, it still becomes lore, but not a Hall of Fame point for Eli. As absurd as the actual catch was in itself, you can't really tell that story without discussing how a relatively immobile QB manages to keep the play alive at least 5 seconds after everyone watching gave up on it. It is a great story you have to tell and Eli is in it. But more importantly, he is great in it. And we are probably also assuming that they were also generally good. Nobody is arguing Tyree gets in. The story angle pushes him into the Hall, but that is only because he is great in that story and good in his career. So, again, I appreciate the change of the opinion but I think chalking it up purely to whether you could tell the "story" without him still short changes Eli's career. Then again, I'm an irrational Giants fan who would probably vote Joe Morris into the Hall if given the chance, so maybe I'm not to be trusted.
I personally err on the side of Eli being a HOFer, but I think it’s 100% reasonable to have the take that he’s not.
If the question was asked before he announced his retirement the majority would have said No. Now they say yes because they are having an emotional response.
Is it fair to say he was an above average QB for at least 25% of his career? Then that alone should not qualify someone for Hall of Fame credintials. He made the Pro Bowl only 4 times and broke no NFL records. Eli being part of something special for the past 20 years does not also qualify him because now you are incinuating he's in there by default.
I think you made a mistake changing your mind and I'm asking you to not be a prisoner of the moment and to reconsider your decision.
Edited 1-31-20. I know and understand you can't reconsider your decision and I respect that. You do have a great show and keep up the good work 👍.
It's hard to admit that you were wrong much respect for it as to speak to your bad argument as you said context is important. Most of the reasons people give for Keeping Eli out are his stats so in that argument comparisons are valid
Manning brothers only two qbs in last 30 years as first qb drafted to win Super Bowl