Megacorporations Make Poor Governments
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
- Can a megacorporation take over the government? Chances are that arrangement would be terrible for everyone.
In Incoming, The Templin Institute discusses the theories and ideas found across alternate worlds.
New episodes every week.
Other Divisions & Branches:
🔹 Patreon | / templininstitute
🔹 The Templin Commissary | shop.templin.institute
🔹 Twitch | / templininstitute
🔹 The Templin Archives | / @templinarchives
🔹RUclips Membership | / @templininstitute
🔹Submit Your Episode Idea | ideas.templin.institute/
Communications & Media:
🔹 Website | www.templin.institute/
🔹 Discord | / discord
🔹 Facebook | / templininstitute
🔹 Twitter | / templinedu
🔹 Instagram | / templininstitute
🔹 Subreddit | / templininstitute
🔹 Mailing Address | Unit 144 - 919 Centre St SW Calgary, AB T2E 2P6
Background music: “White Atlantis” by Sergey Cheremisinov. User under a Attribution-NonCommercial License.
Ending music "Battle Forever" used under license from Shutterstock.com.
Narration by M.A.R.C. 
Развлечения
"President? Do you have any idea how much power I would have to give up to be president?" - Lex Luthor
Justice League unlimited the cartoon series
I think that parallels a joke about Trump quitting as soon as he learns how much a President makes.
look at trump what he invested to become president and who fights him
Lavitts Ironically he became president once.
Lex only joined the elections just as a prank to piss off Superman and still won
Templin Institute: "Can a company take over a nation?"
United Fruit Company: "Yes. Yes it can."
The east indies company:im a joke tp you
I mean they did consistently rely on a foreign government (America) to bail them out so without a powerful foreign government to back them they really can’t even the East India Company consistently relied on support from the British government
Free US support if they say the locals are communist
Banana republic goes brrr
ExxonMobil: “Hold my barrel”
Mining corporations found and run towns for their employees, often they employ some private security. So in a small scale this happens all the time. The more remote this mining town is, the less influence a country will have over this town. In a scenario of space mining the independence could be nearly complete.
Over time one of these independent mining towns could grow into a mega city. The question would be if the corporation would still control it or even want to control it.
By the point it transitions from mining town to self-sufficient industrial city, it’s unlikely the corporation would be able to run the entire city at a profit, especially if the company is specialized in mining. They’d probably want subcontractors for industry once it’s past the basics, and probably a homegrown or imported government for general management. Whether that government has many social programs or is mostly privatized(or both, which is a possibility) will largely depend on the Corp itself.
@@thatman8562 Well it can be outsourced or not, in any case, the town will be totally dependent on the mining company.
Furthermore, if the company registers that providing floorspace to companies avoiding taxes is more profitable than mining, the focus of the company may shift rapidly.
@@thatman8562 i always questioned the idea that a mega corp would be solely profit basis at least in the cents that they care about money alone. the act of acquiring resources would be the main profit past a certain stage of the corps growth right? /for example you could argue that schools are a massive profit dump or worse a gamble that you would get anything worthwhile from it. but the managers and bean counters for accounting would be priceless in the corp. the money put in the school is worth less profit than the resource of skilled labor that it would provide
I imagine those companies may want the area to remain unincorporated. (No municipal government.) For if such a place established township, they could pass unfavorable laws for those companies.
To do so, those companies would have to provide services in lieu of the government. (Whether they're still profitable after that is up for debate.)
By that point, it’s almost certainly dozens of companies with a de facto control instead of outright running the government. Probably a nominal civil government to at least to run the overall city/planet, but with no real power. (Basically, the government is too dependent on the company to risk regulating against their interests.)
I feel like this episode of Incoming tends to ignore how corporations get into power. The point of these capitalist cyberpunk dystopias is not to show how Megacorporations become governments but rather how governments become too weak to regulate Megacorporations.
Very well said, I think this video will age poorly.
@@pedrokantor3997 Hello 2021 called....
That notion ignores the fact megacorporations and big governments time and time again then collude together and impose heavy regulations to strangle competitors both foreign and domestic
They aren't exactly directly opposed to each other
@@genghiskhan5701 It was around the time of Progressivism that we started getting this collusion.
Care to list how it’s aged poorly? I’d honestly be fascinated to hear about the BS in video.
"Antitrust laws are a global standard of international trade."
Disney: "Hold my beer."
Beer is not family friendly.
Disney: Hold my soda.
Amazon: hold my audio book
Anti-Trust is dead
Judge Dredd you’re high.
China: "Hey Disney, do you love money and communism?"
I got a Stellaris: Megacorp ad on this video.
nice
Oh, that is deeply ironic.
**smiles in slave market**
Convenient!
Well It's played like a corporation in game. You are competing against other megacorps and you are doing business with other normal empires. Megacorps can be strong but you would rather be a normal empire if you can't get clients. So in a way it does actually make some sense.
I mean, megacorps are literally just 1/1 ripoffs of medieval merchant republics that have existed all throughout Southern Europe and some places in Northern Europe, and they’ve lasted for hundreds of years before dying off.
lol
I can understand hating the venitians, but the rest?
It took the rise of centralized Kingdoms throwing the weight of massive armies around to slap down the Hanseatic League, Venice and Genoa.
True, but they were city-states first with merchant oligarchies rather than stretches of lands and vast navies privately owned by a business.
It breaks economic laws for a business to profit within itself. Even larger vertically integrated companies of the early and mid twentieth century had trouble figuring out how to price their own supply lines and ended up selling g off huge parts of their business.
Forgot about Sepratists from Star Wars. While separatists had many legitimate reasons and their government was arguably more democratic it was also more localized so the council only had the say in civilian affair. The Clone Wars were fought thanks to the droid army made and ran by "sympathetic" members of various megacorporations which led to the various atrocities and war profiteering Separatist army was known for.
This is the way how megacorporation (or a group of them) can run a nation. By not running it, but being of such a vital importance to the nations existence there really is no government oversight.
I know everyone else hates the amount of politics in the prequels. While the movies are mediocre, I personally love the politics. But I love politics in general so...
@@JJSogaard I think the actual story line was great but badly executed.
I kinda wish for prequel remakes (purely hypothetically) because the core ideas are pretty damn great.
Look at GoT that had ton ox politics and intrigue, the issue was execution because Lucas... well I think he never decided what type of movies he wants to make.
Best example is Grievous in The Clone Wars he was this super cool super lethal killing machine... as per Lucas' instruction. In Clone Wars (and the movie) he was incompetent mustache twirling B movie villain who's really only good at runing away... as per Lucas instructions.
@@jankostrhun8725. I totally agree. Actually, I think simply removing or replacing specific scenes and characters (you know which) would make them quite decent. And then there is ROTS which I honestly really like. Maybe except "losing the will to live". But other than that.
@@JJSogaard I recommend hunting down RotS novelization. It really nicely expands on everything in the movie.
That's exactly what makes a company "too big to fail". You become such a major component of the nation's economy that you essentially run the nation and control the political arena.
A single corporation is extremely unlikely to succeed, but a huge conglomerate of companies seizing power is very believable
That's called a Consortium
@@blazecrep7849 or a Confederacy (of independent systems)
Why would they then work together? What happens when the mercenaries they hired to have them take over realize that it's the people with the guns that have the real power?
@@davidpeters6743 the fact the mercernaries are also all diffrent seperate companies.
whod be unwilling to try and play diamond dogs with there biggest clientiel.
@@blazecrep7849 the correct word is conglomerate
Blade Runner's world is not run by corporations. Rather the corporations have a very big influence on the government (just like real life.) The U.N is even there too. That's one of the reasons why I like it so damn much.
Yeah blade runner is wel thought out
Because though megacorporations likely wont form goverments
They can have great influences
Seb Sandwich shadowrun has something similar, the governments still exists mostly because the corps don’t want to take out the trash, but the have armys and their own territory, but that land is basically their own Offices and institutions.
Thats like saying the Combine doesnt run the world in half life because theres a human administrator and functioning human civil protection force. But if the people in power are a complete puppet to a higher authority than that higher authority is truly the ones running things regardless of any puppet government to be the face of authority.
@@nenpatat5650 "Because though megacorporations likely wont form goverments
They can have great influences"
Though there is a limit to their influence since the Tyrell Corporation would probably very much like there to not be any sort of bans on Replicants and yet they couldn't stop them.
@@tgreaux5027 this thread aint big enough for the both of us
You better start believing in Megacorporation dystopias, you're in one
I mean, we're not, but I guess not everyone grows out of their edgy highschool phase.
You ever hear of neofeudalism?
Ok Barbosa
Well megacorporation today control or at least influence governments through their economic power. They use means like corruption (oh, sorry lobby work) as this is an extremly cost efficient way for them to make sure government policies help them.
To make the next step and run that government in all its functions is a huge additional cost in comparison that would need to be justified in some way.
This has some Barbosa vibes.
"And I think it would be very hard to find anyone willing to put their life on the line so their ceo could become a little richer."
Oh. This was made before 2020.
dutch east india company
Oh my fucking god did you watch the fucking video?
The entire Anglo-American military-industrial complex wants to say a word about it.
Wagner
@@pomeranianproductions647tbh any PMC but they are really putting their life on the line to become richer
Stellaris devs:
"...Hold my beer."
Pretty sure most corporations have learned at this point that it's more advantageous to lobby a government than to try to be one.
That's very realistic way to look at it because governments by design their spending doesn't allow for profit. It's contrary to what corporate financing goes because they must be profitable.
Therefore getting us to pay for it :D
@@markbennett945 yeah to greater extent. If you look at history especially when talking about industry most of the successful ventures are 50/50 government and private interests because government can keep programs from being canceled while private entities focus on innovation. Yes your right it does open for alot of abuse but unfortunately no system is immune
@@markbennett945 Precisely.
If it is profitable, a company will be there to reap.
If it isn't, taxpayers' money will cover the losses.
More civilized countries are less prone to this than oligarchies (at least, not to the same extent), but yeah.
Yes. because on paper they are not responsible when they act through lobbying.
Fighting for abstract principals and values is really a post-1789 oddity of history. Throughout most of history people fought and died for their monarchs or nobles, who were basically CEOs/private owners of the country.
To build upon this comment, I'll just state that there were exceptions back then. For example, there were some times where people still fought, or "crusaded", for ideals, such as the supremacy of their own beliefs for example. There were also a few "soldiers of fortune", whom fought for gold or glory instead of for any king, country, or cause.
Arguing that a monarch was basically the CEO of a country is kind of...wrong. Mostly because its a direct misunderstanding of the dynamics of a monarch and a CEO. Any feudal lord still had to maintain popularity in his country to a degree or risk a revolt. in a corporation thats not always the case(hell not even usually the case) they just need to keep specific groups happy with them, usually stockholders or the board depending on their charger(and again not even then). The structural differences are really different.
I'm not sure this is true: before then, people fought for their king because he was ordained by God or a natural hierarchy or something. That's a different principle for sure, but it still is one.
Not really since 1789. They're towards the end of the Renaissance when classical republicanism started to become a thing and we started seeing the earliest foundations of what would become the capitalist society. One of the bigger moments was when King Charles was tried for treason after the English Civil War, which made no sense at the time because treason was, by definition, a crime against the Crown, so how can Charles commit treason against himself.
@@Marconius6 to get a bit spicy, you could apply similar ideological principles to modern (or near future cyberpunk) CEOs and shareholders.
As you pointed out, european monarchs used myriad ideological grounds to legitimise their rule (although the idea of direct appointment by god only really appears in the late medieval period if i remember correctly; as long as life is stable/not too bad, people usually accept their current regime as a fact of life, and "the way things are done" without needing significant ideological justification).
However you could quite easily construct equivalents for CEOs and shareholders. If for example you could convince people that the CEO's/shareholders acquired their wealth/power through skill, talent, hard work or other meritocratic mechanism, then you could probably justify their rule as "the rule of the competent."
Wether or not such meritocratic competence is real or not doesn't matter.
In the same way that it didn't matter that monarchs weren't actually ordained by god, it doesn't matter if the CEO actually got their position meritocratically; as long as they can convince people of that fact, and people accept that as valid metric of worth/right to rule, it can be used to legitimise corporate rule.
"Can a megacorporation take over the government? Chances are that arrangement would be terrible for everyone."
Proven right by the strange world we call "real life".
Exactly, thats what the US is becoming or has already become -a Corporate Country.
@@VaciliNikoMavich And even more self evidently, the banana republics.
@@omppusolttu5799 Indeed. Australia is one such right?
@@VaciliNikoMavich uhh, not sure? The banana republics were a bunch of nations in central america that had full on corporation backed coups happen in them.
@@omppusolttu5799 Ooh...i yhought it was a road term for other counties that relynon..not the most legal of economic backing.
*Problems with Megacorporation government (Summary of Video)*
*1.* Other countries would put tariffs or trade bans on the megacorporation until it goes bankrupt.
*2.* Developing a private military to take over a country is too expensive to rival current militaries. Trying to beat a trained military with a large budget would be nearly impossible without a huge technological advantage and manpower.
*3.* Nations are founded on principals and values. No one would fight or die for the company just so the CEO can become a little bit more richer.
1. Any country in the world can face this problem. Ask Cuba
2.I kinda agree with this, but when a coorporation begins to control an overwhelming amount of capital, military force would not really become necessary - but if a coorporation becomes so big that it's a threat to your sovereignty, what's stopping the guys with the guns from taking that from you? Bribery of state officials maybe? Perhaps the corporation is the supplier of your military tech? (Robocop for example)
3. Patriotism can be a big motivator for fighting for your country - but money is the motivator for employment. Mega corporations are often represented as awful societies to live in for the bottom classed who are treated as corporate assets, but Military/para-military employment would be the easiest way out of that.
you haven't heard of British East India Company?
Robots would fight and die
@@makka432 1. Do you live in cuba ?
Bunch of outdated tech there.
@Ninja Crackpot yes.
Thats why you nees capitalist to improve people live.
Cuba live however sucks.
A "corporate conquest" wouldn't be a conquest in the traditional sense. A more realistic version could be a scenario of privatization run amuck, where a government starts handing over key aspects of governing over to the private sector in order to save on tax dollars. OCP from RoboCop is actually a pretty good example of this, where the city of Detroit privitized their police force and awarded the contract to run and equip the police to OCP.
Joss Goyanko this
Why would companies just give people free weapons just because the government asks for it really nicely ?
There is no profit in giving away what you can sell, i question.
Frank G
But who's gonna buy it ? The situation requires tax money to not be enough so civilians cant pay for it and the government can't pay for it
You are missing the obvious point: all businesses are meant to make profit, hence why they charge people for their goods and/or services. Giving away something as valuable as weapons won't generate profit.
The biggest problem I have with this is that it seems to run on the idea of these megacorporation states happening in the span of one lifetime. This also assumes that people won't be psychologically manipulated, and/or that people in general would be able to see them as bad, and therefore would stop them. This doesn't take into account a slow change of the status quo on the general opinion of megacorps among a populace through the use of manipulative ad campaigning. Something that is a huge expenditure in business and government today and yet it is still used, because it works. Otherwise they wouldn't advertise.
My previous bit still also applying, this would be true in the same sense for other countries. If they can keep their image good enough to enough countries, then they can maintain trade. This also seems to assume that the megacorp wouldn't be able to make difficult to deny trade deals. If anything, the only way I see a "boycott" of this country would be more on the realm of being a badly managed corporation to begin with or the other countries daring and/or starting WW3. They in turn would have to convince their own people that this corporation is awful. This would be made harder if the megacorp had a running history that put it in a positive light beforehand with their products and services they have provided to the people of said countries before the transition.
Also as a partial continuation of the prior point on products, the megacrop would likely still buy products from other countries. Why? Because it wouldn't actually produce every single product its citizens would have. The idea that a megacorp nation would have products for every side of life right out of the gate as a country is a wrong assumption. Sure, as a megacorp it has likely diversified several times to a broader range of products, but as you yourself stated, it isn't easy and has the potential to go wrong. It would likely have a hand in several markets in order to reach nation status, but it would not likely have everything. Not even close. And it would need to make sure that it had the capability to weather a failure before trying to enter a new market. This would also in turn become a very political one with its relations and trade deals with other countries, which comes back to another reason why it wouldn't produce every product its citizens would use. By not monopolizing their own citizens product choice and use, they could maintain trade deals with nations that would also improve their image and profits. After all, if the megacorp still relies on trade with other countries, those other countries can maintain a sense of security from having some form of power over the megacorp nation in their own trade deals with products.
Another thing I find odd is the idea that the megacorp supposedly couldn't justify a standing army to its investors. This is like saying a king couldn't justify an army to the dukes beneath him. If investors would be that stupid, they would never manage to keep their profits safe. It would be justifying a security system that requires maintenance. Never mind the fact that a war on foreign soil, or possibly "peace keeping missions", could be very profitable. Not that it would be great for the common folk. But they would just run ad campaigns like any other government would to combat that usual issue.
And the idea that "Nobody would die so their CEO could become a little richer" I find sadly laughable. The idea that a megacorp couldn't, like any other nation, claim some sort of value or just cause and have it made an ideal for its employees/citizens to believe in, is an extreme underestimation. Business already does this with their employees, abet not at all to the same fervor of countries at all. Many already claim to be people oriented and/or that they have good causes they fight for. Regardless if the CEO and/or megacorp actually cares about those things, any of those ideas I could see evolving over time with enough indoctrination to be truly believed by its own populace. Again, this is something any nation could, and has done. Never mind the general idea of protecting the place you live, even if you might not like it.
HOWEVER, if all this was attempted in a single generation based on the current global social and political climate towards megacorps of our world as it stands now, the possibility is unlikely that it would succeed. It would require something major to change the current generations attitude, a shift in the population's generation, or some unforeseeable technology/event for there to be a positive change in how people view megacorps in the near future. Everything I have stated would require the passing of several generations which would be something on the scale of a few hundred years or more from where we are currently. Though I dislike that I see it as "unlikely" and not as an impossibility.
As for the second half about megacorp states in sci-fi, I agree they are not generally an interesting choice. Actually, I would say that holds true for most settings in general. There are a few exceptions, but they are rare, and the setting is usually not focused on the nation's major inner workings.
at least someone else is trigger, but you say based on our current social and political climate the possibility is unlikely. I know you're post is 1 year old but are you still sure about that? Because if you are, do you know what the US Federal Reserve is? I'll give you a hint, it's not ran by the Federal Government and i doubt the US Government has any kind of authority over them in practice.
@@Guardian_Arias I am not quite sure of what you are getting at with this? Are you implying that the federal reserve is trying to become its own nation? As far as I know they manage the financial stability of the USA.
If they are not pointing out they are a mega corporation and trying to manage a country themselves as the governing body then my point still stands. I was stating that it couldn't openly be done. But being discreet or inconspicuous is a different story.
To add to your point of "several generations", we should keep in mind that relatively unpopular forms of government have been using figureheads and puppet governments for millenia. Sparta was in practice an aristocracy, but it kept the two royal families alive and important religiously. Long after the rise of Augustus, the Senate still held elections and meetings. The shogunate kept civilian emperors on the throne for centuries - frequently children - and so on and so forth.
I have no trouble believing that over a generation or two, a particularly weakened government would outsource more and more of it's authority to a handful of corporations trough unreasonably long contracts, giving them de facto power. This extends to the organization of elections - which are already quite influenced by the rich and powerful, as campaigning isn't cheap - and counting of votes, and you have a civilian government that's controlled by a handful of corporations. With that, you have a megacorp in everything but name.
@mastergreenfox6004 It makes sense that this could only happen over the course of several generations, but that to me only makes it more unlikely to occur. Megacorporations don't last very long in the great scheme of things. There aren't too many companies out there older than a couple centuries. I think Jeff Bezos even commented on that in a board meeting over a decade ago (something along the lines of 'the only centuries-old companies out there are beer companies' - and even then, those tend to be family-owned and by no means the largest in the industry). I would like to say something else, though:
I commend you on the point of rejecting the idea that the Federal Reserve could become a MegaCorp. gov't. The Fed is a public-private partnership. It's chairperson is appointed by the Senate for Pete's sake! It's true the Fed is more privatized than other countries' central banks, but there's really no reason to belive it's "controlled " by private bankers or anything like that. That and they don't control police forces or anything like that either. All they do is try to keep inflation under control and ease economic shocks as they occur through coordinated banking action(key word, "try"). So they don't represent some kind of covert cabal trying to run everything. They are very significant, but nowhere close to the near-omnipotence that MegaCorp. Governments are depicted as having.
Templeton institute: “Trying to expand into every product or service is nearly impossible”.
Me: “tell that to Walmart and Amazon...”
Neither of whom make anything. Both are just sales outlets. They literally do one thing, sell stuff.
John Terpack they don't have to make anything, they just have to own everything
@@Persephales And neither of them do. They aren't even close. They don't even own the stuff they sell.
@@johnterpack3940 you're not familiar with Walmart and Amazon product lines?
@@Persephales I am. I am also familiar with the fact that Walmart, Amazon, and every other store that has its "own" line of products does not produce those products. There are no Walmart or Amazon factories. And even if there were, that would be a far cry from them owning everything.
"These corporations pale in comparison to the worlds nations"
Pepsico in 1989: *Buys 17 submarines, cruiser, and a friget from USSR*
*PepsiCo become sixth most powerful military at the time*
*Frigate
@@coldessa1210 Alas pepsico did not turn its military might on Coca-cola. It would have been the moment when the cola wars turned hot.
@@nickl5658 You mean soda wars.
@@hainleysimpson1507 Naw he ment the pop wars
Templin: "Corporations wouldn't make good governments"
Dutch East India Company: *laughs doubtingly*
They went bankrupt tho and was taken over by the state. Or so history book said.
Pepsi Navy - "am I a joke to you?"
*Laughs in Banana Republic*
@@eleethtahgra7182 they lasted longer than a lot of traditional form of governments though
@@uristmcdorf55555 banana republics weren't corporatocracies though, and collapsed after a couple of decades.
I think the "Conglomerate" in Mirror's Edge Catalyst was somewhat plausible. Each company controls a different sector of society. I'm sure if another company rises (if it's even possible) the conglomerate would easily trade one for another.
"Merchant Kings" by Stephen R Brown backs up this argument very well--talking about the Dutch East India Company's Rule of Indonesia, The Dutch West India Company's founding of Manhattan, The Russian American Company in Alaska, the Hudson Bay Company, Cecil Rhodes South African Company and the British East India Company as mentioned in this video. Corporations ruled a very sizable portion of the Earth and this is largely forgotten because they left very little impact aside from establishing some national borders in a few cases. The regional managers were more concerned with sending furs and spices back to the home countries to meet quotas and raise shareholder dividends than building cities or national identities. The Hanseatic League is a better example of something like a Corporation that governed an area well for some time and could hold its own against Nation States.
I think Paradox saw this video and wanted to prove you wrong.
Paradox from Ben 10 or Paradox from Yugioh: Bonds Beyond Time?
@@JaelinBezel A video game developer, Paradox Interactive
@@anthonymagkno Data not found.
And failed, because megacorps are still the same old command and conquer economy governments with differently named bonuses, a somewhat larger sprawl kickback and the option to build some buildings on other peoples planets. That's it. No real difference.
Exactly. Just like all of their games. No real differences come from their overpriced dlcs
I find it strange that you didn't mention the Venetian Empire (or any other merchant republics), which was basically an empire made by merchants.
Yes and no. It was an Empire that had a lot of merchants, that wrote a lot of laws to protect them and that like all countries focused on developing its strong points.
Despite this the Doge was elected by the people, the Council was made by standard nobles and the state often sacrificed economical gain to help its citizens (like during the famine of the 17th century. They bought a lot of Turkic grain almost depleting their entire monetary stock to stop it.)
@@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870 Wasn't the Doge usually a merchant? Regardless, my point was more that it should have been bought up/discussed in the video.
@@bendkok The Doge was usually a merchant since most Venetians were merchants and like in every republic voted into power those that had similar ideas to them.
And Venice couldn't be brought up in the video because it was not a corporation controlling an entire nation. It was a nation with a lot of merchants.
@@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870 Venice was not really analogous to a megacorp, but it was more than just "a nation with a lot of merchants". The core of Venetian commercial power was its fleet of merchant ships. Little known fact: Those were built and owned by the government.
dutch east india company
Despite agreeing with several points on the list, I have to disagree with two things:
1. You assumed that a megacorp's sole way to function as a government is overthrowing one. However, I reckon, in science fiction they would be able to colonize new worlds, thus getting beyond the borders of existing laws and nations. They'd have to administrate colony planets, and in time, I see them becoming self-governing political bodies.
2. People can stand for a company if that company produces something or provides something that they desperately need, it could result in people becoming loyal to that corporation. For example of they'd produce the cure for a ravaging plague, they'd provide treatments that expand life-expectancy or they'd have a monopoly on interstellar travel.
Planetary "company towns" always strike me as incredibly plausible
@@musicman24XTrue. That seems different than what Templin is talking about. That would be similar the British East India Company, which he used as an example about how hard it is for a company to maintain a private army. This example is part of his claim that the sort of MegaCorp described has *never* existed in history. No matter how rich the East India Company (British or Dutch) became, it never became a serious threat to the government that sponsored it. Maybe he could've gone in a little more detail on how a company like that could be a compelling antagonist or setpiece in a story that takes place entirely within a colony. The company's "home" would be some Earthbound country with a functioning government, but the company exerts basically government control over specific colonies or poor countries. That sort of thing happens all the time in the real world and there are entry examples alive and well today.
I do see your point, factions may not draw interest if they're all the same. But that does not have to be the case with megacorperaions. I have taken courses in running a business and one of the lessons was about what beliefs and values you want for your business. Do you want to be best value? Most convenient? High quality? Most creative? Making money is not the only thing companies care about and some of them develop a culture of their own.
Also, I thought this video was going to talk about why a mega corporation would be bad at running a country, not about why their rise would be unrealistic or bad for a story.
Here’s the thing about that argument with values and beliefs. Those are all business pitches. Those aren’t reasons to fight for a Megacorp. Fighting for convenient stores is not convincing. Fighting for best quality products is not going to get people up in arms. Megacorps that existed real life required governments to back them. Dutch and British East Indian companies were backed by their respective nations. The banana republics were backed by the US government to keep communism out. Point is: you need values and beliefs that DON’T sound like business pitches. Great example for companies using beliefs as a way to generate support/customers is Chick-fil-a, which claims to be a Christian restaurant so it makes more money in the Southern US.
Going to have to agree. It's far cheaper to bribe some politicians to enact the policies you desire to increase you profits than to put yourself in a position where you have to run expensive programs like militaries and social programs necessary to either defend your state or keep the people docile.
Welfare in a way feeds into the low wages that corporations provide.
I think the "corporate republic" model is generally used as a simplified expression of real-world corporate influence over a government.
Mike D It's unrealistic and simple, most corporations bribe and lobby, or hire others to do the dirty work (rebels, militants, mercenaries, etc.)
Also misses the real weakness in the argument...
Where the hell is the profit in running a government?
Getting cash OFF a government? Sure yeah.
But actually being the government?
Tally Boyle
The same place the government gets their money from
Right. But the government is usually in massive debt.
i question everythin g ah. Which explains why governments are so profitable.
That's why salaries are so much higher as an elected officials than as an exec in the private sector yes?
That's why you see all these guys who work in private sector clamouring to get scalped and join government posts?
Oh. Wait.
It's exactly the opposite.
Hmmmmn. Odd that isn't it?
My favorite thing about Mike Pondsmiths cyberpunk is that it’s not so much about the corporations vs the corporations, but the people and how it effects them and the continued disillusionment between the populace, and said corpos
Megacorporations making for poor governments is kind of the point in just about any setting.
They're also (unfortunately) found in reality, with companies having private militaries and even some controlling entire nations. Just look at banana republics for example.
Caldari State is doing quite well for them self
I like Shadowrun's version of mega corporations where there are several of them in one country and they don't want to deal with sewers, water, electricity, and street maintenance.
While a corp can bring a lot of weapons to bear, even they don't wan't to piss off a government military.
They may have a sovereign rights on their property which looks like they became a government but they still have to follow government regulations.
Corps influence governments in Shadowrun through money and campaign contributions, but they are not all powerful and some have disappeared.
Of course when a corporation is controlled by a dragon, good fucking luck trying to get the upper hand.
Game Master Toolbox I was thinking the same thing
Yeah, I am pretty upset that Shadowrun's megacorp is entirely ignored. I guess it's not that popular outside for TRPG circles.
KogasaGaSagasa My guess that they only deal with video game and movie governments.
Also, perhaps most importantly there are places that megacorps still aren't fully allowed. Until destabilized, Tir Tairngire for example didn't allow any megacorps to operate directly inside it, forcing them to work through subsidiaries that don't have extraterritoriality. Others deny the extraterritoriality including Tír na nÓg, Amazonia, Yakut, and Aztlan (although Aztechnology still holds a powerful sway in that last one)
"Nations are typically founded on great principles and values", what, most nations are rather founded on historical happenstance. Sure, many European states pretend to have some great values, but these values have often been adopted *after* the state de facto has been founded, e.g. Sweden, Denmark, France, the Benelux nations, Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the UK, Iceland, Norway, Finland, Poland, the Baltics, the Balkans, etc pretty much all have emerged regardless of 'values', and just adopted some values later on.
France as a nation literally exists because some Germans helped chase Attila out of Roman Gaul and the Romans said "fuck it, if you can hold this land, you can keep this land".
This idea of nations being built on values is incredibly rare. The few times that political entities have been built on ideological principles alone, ethnic, territorial and linguistic differences have often led to that realm breaking apart and dividing. Case in point, the Abbasid Caliphate, the Soviet Union, the Papal States, etc. National ideals exist as a result of the history and circumstances that polities and nations find themselves in. Democracy is important in the UK not out of a genuine love for democratic principles, but because of the realization of the Kings of England that they could not effectively maintain power without including the various and disparate lords and barons of England in official decision making and the realization of those lords and barons that absolute, unchallenged power by the King or King-like analogue (looking at you Cromwell) would have negative consequences for their own interests and the interests of the realm.
Maybe not _founded_ on great principles and values, but definitely powered by them. The moment patriotism dies, the country will begin to dissolve
What principle was Austria founded on? Several centuries ago, Austria was just another German state. The only reason they didn't get absorbed into Germany when it formed was that they were powerful enough to avoid getting consumed by Prussia. They even tried to join post WW1 but were forbidden by the Allies. Austria came to be as just another German state ruled by a family, if the irl RNG went even a little bit differently they would probably be just another province in Germany
What's funny is that in Battletech, one Megacorp is the good guys of a story. Their mining world is well maintained and humane, while still being profitable. The only issue is their lack of good security as both Clanner invaders and Pirates are able to invade their world.
"Laws that have been around since the Roman Empire"
I'm sorry, what? Wtf kind of history book you reading?
*cries in Babylonian*
@@maxwellli7057 solomon's temple or Jericho which is older!
Screams in Egyptian
I wondered about that, looked it up. Wiki: "The most legislation came under the Constitution of Zeno of 483 AD which can be traced into Florentine Municipal laws of 1322 and 1325.[3] It provided for property confiscation and banishment for any trade combinations or joint action of monopolies private or granted by the Emperor. Zeno rescinded all previously granted exclusive rights." So yeah, late Roman Empire, looks kind of antitrust-ish.
The main problem with "Corporations as government" is that it is just that. When a Corporation becomes big enough and powerful enough to essentially monopolize a country (not just run the country, but own every company therein, and make and sell *ALL* consumer goods under a single brand, that everyone buys using the money they get paid by working for the corporation, IE their new government), the things it has to do to effectively run that country make it essentially no longer a corporation. They simply *cannot* make those profit-centric decisions when they are the only existent producer. When you produce all goods, and every citizen that works works for you, you just can't make a profit anymore. Any money you earn, is LITERALLY just the money you gave the citizens to buy the very goods they made. The only time you earn more money than you put in is when you literally print money, which itself reduces the value of everything else. Sum zero. When you are the runner/leader/owner of a country and produce everything for it and employ every citizen in it, then you cannot make more money. You already own everything. You have to start functioning like a government instead of a corporation, at least in regards to all internal affairs. You can still act as a sort of corporation in regards to your interactions with foreign powers, treating other countries as both rival consumers and rival producers (especially if you do allow your citizens to import goods. In fact, it would probably be both easier and better for the corporation to do so, so they can at least somewhat monetize off their citizenry via taxes).
Basically "Megacorporation" is just another word for "Government". Its a different way of running things that is not very feasible or practical.
That is a point I plan on addressing in my own work.
So basically a corporate government is a closed system.
If money is blood, then yes, Patrick.
What about the wealth create in producing material goods and infraestruture. Or the wealth in becoming the major benefeciary in a global trade route. Wealth dont need to be abstract, it can be a tool of power for the desires of his owner. You can afect the word around you with a lowal army in ways that you cant with only paper money.
If you build a nation, you own not only the value of each separate part, but the extra value generate by the sum of his parts.
Yeah, an "all powerful" corporation more or less looks like a communist/feudal state.
So, that's part of an issue: a corporate government looks a lot like a state: especially if the corporation's legitimacy is built on itself.
That's probably the major issue with "corporate" states: corporations are defined by the government which creates their "charter". As he showed, the nature of their external charter was what separates something like the east Indian company from an independent state: they're basically defined explicitly as subordinate units in a larger whole.
a megacorporation would be a modern version of the feudal monarchy but with shareholders instead of feudal lords, the power is inherited, like it was in the monarchies.
daniel gonzalez rodriguez and what's happened to every non-middle eastern monarchy?
They were forced to hand over control to elected bodies of public representatives or got slaughtered by revolutionaries...
daniel gonzalez rodriguez the word your looking for is plutocracy.
Those two political systems have nothing in common. Unless you imagine in a megacorporation government "shareholders" would swear fealty to the "CEO" and receive a fief in return for military service.
I feel like for a Corporation to become a government, the very concept of a corporation and possibly economics as a whole would have to be revolutionized somehow. But as you said in the end with Helghan, usually corporations that aspire to rule will cease being a for-profit entity once they achieve domination. I think a game called "Choice of Robots" puts this into an interesting light. In the game you can conquer Alaska with your own personal army made up of robots and your human employees as generals, but you have to win their loyalty. But once you do take Alaska, you have to transition into a proper political entity, being a dictatorship, monarchy, democracy or even a protectorate of another country.
4:05 Man, this part about the Russian armored group aged HORRIFICALLY
Oh look it's an NPC in the wild
@@SergyMilitaryRankingsHey your lord and savior just died by a manpad. Sorry for your loss.
Theres no need for corporations to take obvious direct control when they already have close complete control over policy via corrupting politicians, revolving doors etc
Please do a video on one of the most horrifying megacorporations of them all, Umbrella.
In the Resident Evil games and movies they were responsible for the destruction of Raccoon City, the death of people too numerous to count and eventually stripping the planet of nearly all life, but they insist on continuing the nightmarish experiments which resulted in Armageddon.
Do one on EuroCorp from the Syndicate Series!
Which is more evil? ATLAS or Umbrella?
Both have done some horrific things
I will just refer you to the fact that the Umbrella Corp. is REAL and they indeed do make mindless drones hellbent to destroy humanity... vapers! URL: umbrellashop.rs/
Yeah I never understood what business model they were following myself, especially with the movies.
the weaponized zombies I could understand, because that was just run of the mill greed. The destruction of racoon city I could also understand because they were just covering their collective asses. But after the second movie there was no one left to buy their product, no one who could prosecute them, and they were basically just being dicks for the hell of it.
At that point the smart thing would have been to drop all the monster making experiments focus on saving as many people as possible, and create some kind of sanctuary. You wouldn't even have to turn over a new leaf, when you're rebuilding civilization you have all the power, and any one who doesn't acknowledge you as their undisputed lord and master can step outside and take their chances with the zombies.
COMPLETE... GLOBAL... *MASTURBATION*
*Anarcho-Capitalism has left the chat*
How is that in any way relevant? A corporation acting as govt is neither anarchic nor capitalistic.
meh. Anarcho - Capitalism is anarchy on its own grounds. no gov actually.
Nah, I would say Marxism/leftism has left the chat. Thats the ideologies that think corporations can get practically do this with this if left unchecked. Ancaps accepts and predicts what the video is saying
Guys, he was joking.
Good riddance.
Templin Institute: "Russia can afford to maintain thousands of tanks..."
Russia 2022: And for my next trick I will make them DISSAPEAR!
You guys forgot to mention the game "Syndicate" - Super super underrated game, but had great examples of a megacorporation.
Great video none-the less!
Wasn't one of them even a form of doomsday cult/corporation? Also xcom Armageddon ;)
Loken Lok i think thats Aztechnology from shadowrun
*But that is my opinion, which means that it is an undeniable fact, because I, and I alone, sit atop a fortress of unassailable truth*
Warhammer fans in a nutshell.
“No way a company can take over a powerful nation”
Maratha Empire: Ummm...
British East India Company: **Laughs in Tea**
"Megacorp governments are not believable"
*Laughs in current year*
Yea. No kidding.
I actually think we were on one side of the pendulum with the great recession triggering a new wave of anti-capitalism and while i don't think any of the major powers will have a Bolshevik style revolution or return to a 20th century style communist state. I think in the lifetimes of most of the people watching, government power will reassert itself and private power will be weakened.
Megacorporations can achieve a lot in some ways; but you're definitely correct in that they make for very poor governments.
Ray Guinnip
They want the god-like power, but will have nothing to do with the responsibility that comes with it.
Actually they want maximum profit and if they gain god like power by doing so well that's just a bonus. As for responsibility well that brings us back to profit and how much is to be gained taking on such responsibility.
The VOC (Dutch East India Company) governance now the days Indonesia from 1602 to 1799 and had its own fleets and armies under its command. Went to war with British and the Portuguese and won. It did happen
yes the video is trash of someone who doesn't knows history
Lol the VOC also proved itself incredibly susceptible to corruption, infighting, and was responsible for some of the worst atrocities and policies committed by us (the Dutch) in our rich history. VOC and WIC policies were ineffective past the golden age, which is why they went bankrupt in the late 1790s
A nation lasting 200 years during the industrial is nothing to scoff at.
It is R K. The title of the video is literally written as corporations makes poor government.
The argument of the video, which I'm assuming you've watched, is that it's difficult to justify corporations as a serious, sole-standing, dominating powers, that act similar to modern nation-states as is often claimed in fictional narratives. Someone else somewhere pointed out that it doesn't make logical sense - corporations aim to make profit, and you cannot make a profit when you're the primary producer of everything yet also paying everyone to buy your products, you're literally just paying money to yourself. At that point you're no longer a profit-based, market-based (ask yourself - what freggin' market is there anyway?), shareholder-pleasing entity, you're just a regular old government with a dystopian sounding title.
It has probably been addressed in here already, but I noticed you mentioned uncertainty regarding the Caldari State form of government.
I've played EVE for many years and I can give you a simple answer: It's an oligargic state based on a council of members which are comprised of the CEO's of the various megacorporations that compose it. Each company has a specific "sphere" of influence on the matters they run (public health, trade, industry, military manufacturing, science and research, and food, etc.), although there are some aspects which are still property of the "State", and not of any corporation per se, chiefly amongst the military and navy forces.
The four factions in the game are meant to mirror but at the same time give a futuristic feel to some already real world examples of forms of gouvernment, being the Caldari a sort of "Comunist Party State", mirroing in many aspects present day China, and they serve as counteroposition to the ultra libertarian "democratic" Gallante Federation, much in the same way the Imperialistic Theocracy Amarr are diametricaly oposed to the Rebelious and freedom fighing spirit of the Minmattar republic, which is basicly a loose cooalition of various tecnofuturistic tribal nations, with a common culture and a common enemy.
EVE Online is amazing and I highly recommend it.
8:42 how about the height of Venice during medieval time? The warlords were all businessmen.
Hmm...I wonder if the Colgate Beef Lasagna was any good..
bleechy
I imagine it didn't sell well because people would associate it with the flavor of toothpaste. Colgate should have branded it differently.
Woody R that's probably what happened TATA Motors was very cheap vehicle dealership in India but now they sell cars to the EUROPE and the UK through Jaguar when they bought them out. Just like Nissan being bought out by Renault. Perception is everything in the corporate world.
I think that it becomes more likely when you consider "company towns" were a thing. When humanity becomes advanced and expansive enough as with the EITC, you get to have companies effectively ammassing huge amounts of wealth and power while acting effectively as a government, at least in their local sphere of influence.
I can imagine corporate worlds when it comes to human expansion into space, as well as corporate habitates and space stations where company word is law due to the lack of influence by any actual government.
When you also get to a certain point of development, wealth effectively becomes immaterial and it starts to just be about accumulation of power.
The problem with that is cost. During the colonization of America most colonies were set up by nations, not privates, because they cost a lot of money and are not profitable until a few decades later. Habitats and space stations controlled by privates are more likely, but even then the state would have to intervene to avoid the companies building stuff in a way that makes them interfere with each other.
company joins made sense though, they needed to keep people working and available, I'm thinking about steel mills, Dupont and some other mining and energy companies. Even specialized farms were that way.
That line about PMCs taking on the Russian government did not age well
Swap "shareholder" for "citizen," and you may find that nations and corporations are closer than they initially seem.
No. The purpose of a corporation is to generate profit for the shareholders. A nation/country/government's purpose is to provide services to the people. It's debatable about what and how well they're delivered, but that is the primary purpose of a government. Even in an absolute monarchy or totalitarian dictatorship, they have to provide the basics to most of the population.
Also, how the success of a corporation and nation are measured differently. A corporation's success is measured by the profits made for the shareholders. A nation's success is measured by the quality of life of its citizens
More like "employees" to "citizens".
I absolutely agree. That being said, Disney is still going to take over everything one day.
try again there a few billion in debt and are planning on paying it of in a few decades
Lol I like seeing Disney struggle, but I have no doubt in my mind that those greedy bastards will find a way to bounce back after this coronavirus pandemic is over.
@@MrJH101 maybe if there execs weren't jumping ship like the rats they are also just a point
1: the decades of debt was before the virus
2: the execs running is during
To me, the executives jumping ship is good news. Their execs needed to be purged out long ago and I think there should always be potential for some new blood to help run things in any type of organization in order to grow (just as long as they choose to promote new leaders through meritocracy and not through some identity-politics driven agenda). The debt that they were incurring was only ever a _symptom_ of the disease, but the real _cause_ of the sickness has always been their greedy/incompetent leadership with some individuals holding their positions for far too long.
@@MrJH101 oh yeah here's hoping for swift death or slow recovery and shedding of acetts
Umbrella Company and subsidiaries
Love Corp
Truth Corp
Plenty Corp
Aeth Suneravelos gotta love 1984 references)
Aeth Suneravelos Spelling, Plenti. #RealWorld lol
Aeth Suneravelos Umbrella Corp is subsidiary of Tricell Inc.
False, it is a subsidiary of Microsoft.
Jon Hulett i lied its a subsidiary of Coca Cola
I will say, the CIS from Starwars is a good example of a reasonably stable coalition of companies that came together to have near unprecedented political influence, even to such a point that a few companies gained seats in the senate as was a plot point of contention before eventually influencing other planets to secede from the republic, kicking off the clone wars. Now of course the CIS wasn't necessarily those companies controlling the front lines but selling their weapons and materials to those planets they had considerable influence over. Sure it gave them effective control and still made the bottom line but all the same this is perhaps the most realistic way I can imagine a company ruling, through sheer economic influence and political maneuvering but never directly as a form of government.
In some of his novels, Jerry Pournelle, a very good and prolific science fiction writer, has corporations being sovereign nation-states, with their employees being citizens of the corporate state.
I had a similar idea, but i have my mega-corporation running a United Earth Government with smaller regional level democracies in a sort of idealized United Nations and embracing personal freedom and global prosperity as an ideology to fight for after defeating a rival mega-corporation in a world war level conflict. While it's still a mega-corporation running a global economic monopoly on everything. It's still has a separate government that runs things on the companies behalf.
"Citizens became employees".
Oh, you mean like in Detroit? You know, that big city that collapsed because a bunch of big companies went under, along with all the jobs they provided directly or at lots of smaller businesses that supported them and the city's activity.
that's only one city.
smith palacios so??
@@jacktheflash8478 that's only one
@@jacktheflash8478 city
@@jacktheflash8478 A private corporation cannot get into every single public or private sector
“Megacorporations are bad government” *proceeds to get absolutely destroyed by a megacorp in stellaris*
Except in Stellaris the megacorps have abandoned their founding idea by the time they became the planetary government. The only mechanical difference compared to the other governments is that they are able to establish branch offices and can only have subsidiaries as subject states. But your CEO won't get fired if your quarterly energy credit income is too low or if you start an unprofitable war.
If they had modelled some actual corporate structure (replace factions with shareholders, make energy credit income have an influence on planetary happiness, make them able to fire the CEO if they are unsatisfied, etc...) it would be much less viable to run one of them like any other interstellar empire.
@ Yeah. MegaCorps are basically oligarchies with some unique flavor.
Technically an entity known as a business and a entity known as a government are very similar with only the goals being different. If a corporation became large enough it wouldnt have to sell goods it would just charge a fee for anyone buying and selling anything this is called taxes.
The Mega Corp government system in the Continuum series was interesting. They had an explanation for how the Mega Corps took over the world governments.
There was a global economic crisis fueld by governmental debt. The Mega corps (and yes like in the example that you liked, there are many companies involved), bought the government's debt in order to stabilize the world economy. In return, the board of directors of these Mega Corps took over the government's and that all peoples became effective indentured servants to the Mega Corps. But they, or their families, could over time pay off their share of the collective debt to become full citizens. Though most would not be able to do so, unless they could become CEO's of some big company or even a Mega Corp as each individual persons personal share of debt was exceedingly large, and of course children would inherit the debts of their parents.
Much of the series is spent in the past, before the economic collapse so the exact details of how the government works is scant, but at least conceptually it was interesting.
I always felt that if corporations took over, it would be to make the rest of the population indentured servants.
Your video is spot on. I think the reason for the corporate governance meme is due to misunderstanding of how the East India Company actually operated.
The EIC exerted control over the Indian subcontinent but it technically did that via the local governments. It showed up and used bribes and intimidation to make the various Indian principalities do whatever it wanted them to do. Meanwhile it built a large military force that it used strategically to render help to allied princes or put down antagonists. It controlled India through positioning itself as a neutral external force that everyone should want on their side, not by assuming direct control.
With time however the local rulers came to depend on EIC patronage and started shifting government functions on to it. This is what caused the downfall of the Company. It was ultimately incapable of governing because it wasn't a government.
Let's not forget that all of this was possible due to the fact that the company was headquartered in a much more stronger nation than India at the time. While the UK was technically advanced and unified, India was relatively underdeveloped and fractured into hostile principalities. The company was able to finance its operations due to revenue drawn from a vast global marketplace while not paying any taxes locally. The UK government also covered any losses if the need arose.
It's not hard to see something similar happening in the future but it would look nothing like the trope we are used to.
Imagine that something happens and Russia fractures. The central government somehow looses control and regional governors start having their own power. It's not hard to imagine a powerful outside corporation (let's say BP) comes in with capital and know-how to work the expensive oil wells in Siberia. The deals are struck by the local governors and the central government is powerless to stop them. Over time the company becomes so important to the function of local governments that it is the defacto source of power for them. It creates its own private military to protect holdings since government protection is unreliable, makes local offices to keep a close eye on things and if political disputes arise, helps whichever party is going to support them. Now, this fractured version of Russia is in effect under corporation control, but it still has a government... several in fact. BP becomes the defacto authority in most of Russia.
Of course, this is just an example, not a prediction 🙂. The point is to show that a powerful corporation can take control over a weaker government if it needs to, however, it will try to avoid this at any cost. In the end, why invest in a sophisticated military apparatus when the local warlord can supply you with one for half the price?
Daniel Tinkov Spot
on...
Daniel Tinkov | What about the United East Indies Company (VOC) then? It's basically a Country of its own. I think the issue is that, there is a bias against Company acting like Government or vice versa, plus also the bias against colonisation.
In short the mindset is: Big Corporation is Bad, Colonisation is Bad.
Anyway. The VOC was founded and contracted by the United Provinces in Europe to supply spices and so on from the East Indies. Later on the VOC acted as a 'Stranger King' toward the tribes of the East Indies, acting as mediators; the tribes gave the VOC certain powers and supplies, in exchange the VOC gave the tribes security through Armed Forces and a mediator to handle politics among tribes; the VOC also acted as exporter for the tribes to export goods, and also as importer to import goods. The VOC was also contracted by Japan, because unlike some think, Japan is a VERY FRACTURED country; to avoid jealousy among the tribes of Japan, it was decided that there will be no more European trades by the tribes of Japan, and VOC will be used as the gateway to Japan for European trades. That being said, trades with China still happen, only more limited. Plus also there're black market trades, like using Obama as a port of call for black trades. That's Obama as in the port south of Kyoto. But… there's a reason on why Hussein was chosen as the President, with his official background was that he grew up at Jakarta, Indonesia, aka Batavia, the former Asian headquarters of the VOC.
no it isn't he says things are unlikely to thappen that already happened in REALITY like you know banana republics this happened bannana companys owned countrys
@Embelm12 Well, aside from Hawaii, where Dole staged a US invasion to take over an independent kingdom.
One more thing people forget is that EIC accomplished what it did was assistance from British parliament, which not only provided it military but also diplomatic & financial support.
I don't really Agree, The Megacorperations in Shadowrun are immensely interesting. Your problem seems to be with Single Corporation States, Which I will agree can be a bit bland but they are also the most simple concept you could run with a Corporation.
happened in south america, research banana republic
I agree. That's the point of Megacorporation sci-fi stuff. There are tons of smaller corps, alliance of corporations competing, often in open war with eachother to get on top and be the number one to subjicate the rest. Is a constant conflict. And usuall these Megacorps imo as they should be a rather dark era things. Like police states, because the corps care about the profit, not the wellfare of it's "employees", which leads to a lot of internal conflicts too. Basically, there is a lot going on all the time. Imo, ofc.
the problem your not realizing is just cause a corporation has power over a government doesn't mean it would be stable government and if a single corporation took over a government through force or some sort of buyout (something i doubt the citizens nor the military would every go with) if it kept running things as is what was the point of wasting money to buy out the government if it just makes you less money overall and you now have to contend with a population you have to listen to or risk open revolt corporations only wok in the first place cause they operate in a marketplace as part of an existing economy built on laws made by an existing government its almost always gonna be better to try to change the laws then take on the responsibility of writing the laws since there are more personal liability for said corporation
@@patriciusvunkempen102and the banana republic all failed cause the corporations fucked up the country's so much in there search for profit people revolted ending said corporations control of the countries the corporations only still exist today cause they dident actually base themselves in said country's if the corporation sharholders lived in the country's they actually affected heads would have rolled
@@patriciusvunkempen102 United Fruit Co has an exaggerated rep, especially from the 1930's on. Powerful? Definitely. Awful? Certainly. But it never outright controlled those states or was terribly powerful in its own right; what it was able to do was use its incestuous links with the US Government in order to mold policy to favor it. Including with local strongmen.
But that was drawn off of stuff the US Government had already been doing. And when the US Government under FDR made a shift to the "Good Neighbor Policy" and began shafting United Fruit Co, there was little it could do to recapture its influence. For instance, the coup against President Arbenez in Guatamala - Operation PBSUCCESS- is often credited as the result of United Fruit Co reacting to his nationalization of their property.
This is bumpkis. The US allowed friendly governments to nationalize American corporate property- including United Fruit Co ones- without lifting much of a finger beyond serving as a mediator, like it did in Bolivia. While UFC's lobbying may have been a secondary influence, what did Arbenez in was his alliance with the Communist Party, decision to receive East German arms, and crackdowns on domestic dissent (including the Supreme Court). This led to an all out push by the US government and Guatamalan dissidents to overthrow him and put a right-wing military dictatorship in place.
Most people don't even know that United Fruit Co is still around under another name. And while it is still powerful and ruthless, the decline of US Government support means that its "Dirty Business" usually means cooperating with friendly NGOs like Colombian Paramiitaries.
I mean I can see one way a mega corporation could sorta form and that is sort of what Amazon is doing right now. Imagine if a single entity had the capability to produce all which an individual needs in abundance. What would they do to maximize profits? Well they could attempt to make themselves self sufficient, provide all their workers with special accommodation and discounts on products which the entity can afford since in it's separate economy it can control all prices and therefore essentially raise and lower the value of the dollar at will. Then after that, assuming they manage to produce a surplus, they can sell products for whatever price they want, given enough time.
Some big corporations even grow their own food. With private space venture increasing, some companies will build their space habitat for mining and probably grow the food inside instead of getting them from Earth frequently. Frequent equals money spent.
Enh I think they are realistic enough because they have existed in the past.
The merchant republics of Europe like Venice were essentially corporate republics - but they predated the modern corporation so they did not have that name.
And the East India Company was precisely what you define a corporate republic to be! It was a company, it existed to enrich its owners and bosses, and it collected taxes and had its own armies. And ran India for 70-80 years.
Yea but it did so on behalf of the British empire not itself
Not always, sometimes the government and the EIC were in opposition, like if you look at the Calico Acts.
If Samsung were to join forces with either Apple or Microsoft, then yeah, they could take over a small nation like Singapore, Brunei, Panama, Tunisia, Belgium etc.
And be kicked out in days by a coalition of countries or embargoed to death by nokia users.
Samsung basically dominates South Korea now anyway, they have a huge economic presence.
@TacticalMoonstone As a singaporean, nodinitiative's comment made me laugh
economically weaker, you mean.
The closest example of a corporate state in real life would have to be South Korea. Most of the population works for a handful of wealthy mega corporations like Samsung, Hyundai and LG.
Now that I think about it, The East India Trading company in Pirates of the Caribbean were technically a corporation that owned most of the oceans, ports, and were kind of independent with the King's permission.
I remembered having watched this video when I saw a documentary on the korean chaebol system, and knowing about the cyberpunk 2077 corporate wars combined with the real life existence of chaebol’s changed my mind on your stance in this video
2:46 The Irving familly is the perfect counter-argument and the corporation that is the more close to become a quasi-megacorporation in Quebec
New Brunswick even more. They own all the news media here and the premier is a lifelong company man.
Speaking of corporations, can you investigate the Umbrella Corporation? I think they're up to some shady stuff.
I think one of the biggest issues with a corporate state is the SNAFU it creates for international law. As it stands, corporations have no standing at international law, they can't bring any complaints or have complaints brought against them at the International Court of Justice or World Trade Organization. And the reason is pretty simple. If corporations were allowed standing at international law, international law's special characteristic as a dispute resolution system among states becomes overwhelmed by corporate disputes. If a corporation is allowed to take over a state, now what the hell do we do? International law as we know it would have to be completely re-written. And before someone brings the obligatory "but international law is useless", yes and no. If we're talking about global security, the answer is kinda, but in commercial matters such as trade and international finance, international law and treaties are incredibly important. A corporate state completely upends that natural order. If a state makes a treaty with a corporate state, is it a bilateral treaty or simple a contract b/w the state and a private entity? Who now has jurisdiction to hear any disputes that arise between the corporate state and regular state? What about agreements b/w two corporate states? Is it heard at the ICJ? The WTO? Some domestic court?
A megacorp wouldn't necessarily need to be the government, they could just be in de-facto control of so much that the government can't really do anything without their approval or at-least indifference.
As far as the dangers of diversifying into new markets, that really only applies to "brands" not corporations, there are lots of large corporations with massive numbers of subsidiaries in markets with little or no relation to their primary enterprise.
As for building or maintaining a military, everyone needs security, the more you have to protect the more you need and it's not like a major corporation has never burned massive amounts of cash trying to crush a competitor over a marginal increase in market share...
Hello! First time commenting, and I want to thank you for this topic. It makes sense, profit is the main motivator of a corporation and running a nation is everything but profitable. Not to mention that they have completely different objectives, like you said. Megacorporations in my world do have a lot of power and influence in politics, but they don't control the government, neither they want to, it's just another tool to gain profit.
Taking over the government, keeping it around as a puppet with a rubber stamp, and then using your control to manipulate the laws of the region can be incredibly lucrative. Imagine no longer needing to innovate because you can simply make a phone call and make your biggest competitors get broken up. I imagine the stock price of such a company would remain quite high (the actual goal of corporations, rather than chasing profit). I dont see such a megacorp actually revealing itself for quite some time, though. It would be much better to sit in the shadows, using the "government" the same way performers use Ticketmaster, to take all the heat.
@@DrinkyMcBeer i would like to drink beer with you mate, you got a spark
Did a king never have overflowing coffers? Did a president never profit by his term in office? Come, if running a nation were not profitable, we would yet be huddled in our huts.
2:35 - It actually happened. Look up the Banana Republics where fruit companies basically ran the countries.
Also the East India Company.
Well, true though the East India Company was barely profitable and needed lots of help. The Banana Republics ran the place because they were just so stupidly profitable.
The banana republics didn't ran the country though, they just bribed the local goverment to not pass regulations and built some infraestructure to increase profit
“Against a Russian armored column… even the most powerful PMC would last all of 2 minutes”
Wagner would disagree if they weren’t too busy marching on Moscow.
Mate...the problem has been resolved.
And theres no marching whatsoever.
I think mentioning this would've been important. The East Indian Company essentially governed large sets of territories.. Though yes by the standards of being a corporation, they failed and was extremely unprofitable for 300 years.
What about 🍌 banana republics?
ziggy274 Those were still republics, just corrupt one's whose leaders were in bed with powerful corporate monopolies so that both the company and those in power could profit. Corporations held immebse sway, but they weren't the government itself.
Banana republics usually answer to a more powerful country, such as Belgium and America - the company really don't give a shit about the local subjects.
For the sake of avoiding the overly serious answers and having some levity
That was a pretty funny comment XD
I come from the original Banana Republic, Costa Rica, and let me tell you: Templin Institute does not what it's talking about
Fellow ex-banana Republican here(Cubano to be specific), when you think about it while corporations fucked Latin America in the ass, at the same time, I don’t think most of them would continue today because pretty much the weak state of them all left them easy to get rebelled against and ultimately overthrown....and usually the rebels weren’t much better...damn you Castro
I love how you added the Helghan Empire into your video, killzone is one of my all time favorite video gaming series!!!!
Stellaris Players:
_"im gonna pretend i didn't saw that"_
Ironically, I am playing as a Megacorp in Stellaris right now
@@spicingdeed8931 why not all?
Standard fruit: laughs in banana
This is an interesting point. However it ignores for money, through lobbying already kinda rule whole countries. In the end all you need to control the money.
That would be more of a plutocracy or a corporacy instead of a megacorp
sure or an oligarchy. I for one would like to see a Megocorp. But thats just me
Bartolomeus Ross In real life?! That would be a terrible government! Whether or not you think it would be effective, it would be a terrible place to live! Look up the Dutch East India company. if you want an example of a country owned for profit. If you mean in fiction, then just see the video for examples of that.
USA is rules so already with legalized bribes to the politicians and it is a terrible run country.
Dat Fishe Boi I dont need to look them up. I am actually Dutch. So I am well aware how bad those instances where. Still, this video is mainly and exploration of their place in Sci fi. In that regard I feel seeing as it would take some type of very futuristic advance for a corporation to gain this much power. Still would want to see it done well. Fictionally. Not in actual reality.
What about Brawndo from Idiocracy and the possibility of a Megacorpation from buying a part of a government and running it in it's favor? As in making people think plants crave electrolytes.
Also my future timeline does feature Megacorporations but they aren't the government. They just have a lot of control over the economy and the government encourages them. Think contemporary South Korea.
Idiocracy is a movie somehow dumber than its subject matter.
“Amarica is a busines now pay me”: killing them softly
Corporate entities exist because governments create laws making them possible and gov'ts create courts, in part, to arbitrate their disputes. Corporations are simply legal organisms living within a government created legal landscape. Now a corporation can have an incredible amount of influence over a government, but by definition it cannot become THE government.
Re: your first point, it may be useful for historical context to read up on US shareholder's overthrow of the kingdom of Hawai'i at the end of the 19th century. These shareholders obviously also wielded a lot of political power, but they always do, and that's one of the places where I think your analysis fails--economics doesn't exist in a vacuum.
It's not a perfect counter example, because in Hawai'i, US shareholders overthrew another nation (i.e. not the US). It was upheld and supported by the US government (the one time that someone claimed he wanted to stop it (President Cleveland) he didn't follow through, and everyone else has been very happy to use Hawai'i's location and influence. In the example you gave, a political leader jailed oligarchs in his own country. It would only be a perfect analogy if Queen Liliʻuokalani had successfully jailed Sanford Dole or something.
his shit fails on whole line the deutsche hanse effecivly disprove him in the middleages being basicly an association of city councils that were comprised of the leading trader familys of those towns, and they even fucked with kings, emperors begged for their favour and fleets were fileded that would make the chinese great treasure fleet shivver for the sheer seize of their ships.
Or you could just lobby (legally bribe) politicians to pass laws that favour your corporate interests, hell you could even make it so that your corporate interests are intertwined with the nations goals and foreign policy. This way most people will just assume its the nations goals instead of your goals.
Interesting how you explain and proof your point of view without entrering at philosophical questions like the government and the monopoly of violence, the empire of law, etc
Nice Video :)
Where are those anti-trust laws to stop Amazon, Google, and Apple?
Norilsk in Russia is kind of an example of this.
They're run by a Corp and its basically just as depressing as those sci-fi's showing space colonies led by a megacorp are.
Yes, with the environment, everything is bad there.
but here's the thing. Most of those corporation are loyal to Putin and the Russian goverment.
FOR THE CORPORATION! Doesnt have the same ring as FOR THE REPUBLIC! or FOR THE EMPIRE!
How about FOR THE EMPIRE (inc.)!!!
Yeah but are you gonna be shouting "for the republic!" If that republic hasn't paid you for 8 months? A bankrupt country is weak.
THE CEO PROTECTS!
glad to found this channel, have you ever think about AI replacing the government that ruled by human?
Has this channel made a video on an AI-run government? If not, they should.
Yes. I thought
1:46 Disney: "Hold my monopoly."
This is why you seize the means of production
the closest thing we have to mega corps are communist countries
@@tristenbezayiff571 Pretty much.
Hope you can make a video about the factions in Legend of Galactic Heroes, seeing how the remake has now just started airing. Though, you'd have 150+ episodes, 14 volumes of novels, couple of feature length films and several manga adaptations to go through...
"Expanding to every product is likely impossible"
-Templin institute
Samsung: *laughs in every sector of business
In case of the Caldari, they're not one megacorporation, but a compound of several megacorporations. Some of them are highly specialised and basically hold a monopoly in their market, in some fringes you may even find minor family run businesses, while others can be compared to the Japanese model of "keiretsu", tech corporations that own most of their own supply line, from mines up to factories. The corporation also may have their own security force which polices company affairs, while navy and police exist to settle territorial or public affairs. There are several "state bodies", corporations which are run by the majors on a minimum consensus, like the house of records, which is the holding for a standardised financial database, or the board of directors, which is the central legislative body.