Tesla Powerwall 2 was it worth it - 2 years on in the UK in Dec 2020.
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- Update July 2022: this video has been updated as it's rather outdated. See here: • Our total costs for ou...
Our Tesla Powerwall 2 has been installed for 2 years 2018 - 2020. I look at the costs to install, the Powerwall's performance and statistic, how we operate it and how much we have saved. Will it pay for itself? I cover any issues and did we make the right decision. Does a Powerwall work in the UK? Will a home battery get a return on investment?
Update:
@15:04 mm:ss should have been times 24 months, not 48! This means the saving is £36.78 per month. So £57 - £36.78 = £20.22 per month for the cost of the Powerwall! Thanks to @bonbon who pointed this out.
The savings quoted were only ever correct at that point in time the video was uploaded. If we look at current energy prices in the UK (April 2022) they have doubled/tripled, then the savings will be dramatically reduced. Energy prices are only ever going to be going one way. A new video can be found here with newer savings and costs: • Our total costs for ou...
I have not included the cost of the solar installation for 2 reasons. First, the 2011 4kW solar install had paid for itself with FiT payments by Dec 2018, the same month the battery was installed. Secondly, the video was about the Tesla Powerwall 2 battery and was it worth it. Whilst it's part of an overall system, it was this component I was concentrating on.
00:00 Intro and system components
02:39 Tesla Powerwall 2 configuration
08:06 Costs to install
11:00 Powerwall 2 performance
13:43 Cost Savings (maths error see description)
15:55 Issues
18:39 Was it worth it?
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🔴 Setup:
4.0kW solar array, installed Sept 2011
- 3.8kW SMA Sunny Boy inverter
2.34kW solar array, installed Oct 2019
- 2.2kW SolareEdge inverter
Tesla Powerwall 2 (Gateway 1), installed Dec 2018
Kona 64kWh EV, delivered 1st July 2019
Tesla Model 3 AWD Performance, delivered 28th Sept 2019
myenergi eddi, installed July 2019
myenergi zappi v1, installed Dec 2018
myenergi harvi x 2
myenergi hub
myenergi iOS app
Landis+Gyr E470 100mm SMETS2 smart meter installed July 2019, removed on 30/11/2020
Kaifa MA120 SMETS2 smart meter installed on 30/11/2020
Based in Rushden, East Midlands, UK
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This panel can put out close to 100 watts ruclips.net/user/postUgkxOqI2yqX0XVrhR2BMJciTWrHJpG8FhJyg when positioned in the appropriate southernly direction, tilted to the optimal angle for your latitude/date, and connected to a higher capacity device than a 500. The built in kickstand angle is a fixed at 50 degrees. Up to 20% more power can be output by selecting the actual date and latitude optimal angle.The 500 will only input 3.5A maximum at 18 volts for 63 watts. Some of the excess power from the panel can be fed into a USB battery bank, charged directly from the panel while also charging a 500. This will allow you to harvest as much as 63 + 15 = 78 watts.If this panel is used to charge a larger device, such as the power station, then its full output potential can be realized.
Thank you
Great deal of information John. With the cost of batteries coming down and electricity prices ever increasing these are additional variables which over a 10 year period would needed to be considered if and when someone was looking at installing the TeslaPowerwall.
The killer are the winter months for my solar PV from October - February. This October and November being the worst since I had them installed since 2002. Keep the interesting video's coming.
Thanks for watching. Agreed in the longer term home storage battery looks like a better financial proposition. Like most technology Moores Law comes into play.
The Winter months can certainly be make or break months for solar, so unpredictable.
Thanks John. Your detailed analysis has helped to convince me that a Powerwall 2 should be a worthwhile addition to our Solar/Eddi/Zappi setup. I have just signed the contract but will have to wait until mid-January to see it in operation due to delivery constraints from TESLA.
Thanks Peter, exciting news on your Powerwall, not so exciting on the delivery timeline.
This is a carefully crafted video that has lots of information for anyone who is considering a similar setup! Thank you John! I love all your videos!
Thank you for saying that, it means a lot as for me these videos take a long time to prep, record and edit. Thanks for watching.
@@johntisbury Hi John, after following your experience I would like to install 18/20 kw of solar panels and 2 powerwalls 2 of tesla, so 27kw total, do you think I could totally disconnect from the network? Knowing that I have an average daily consumption of 13-15kw?
I live in central Italy, I would like your opinion .... Thanks bye
@@gio4447 hi Gil thanks for watching. I would suspect that for the majority of the time you would not be needing any grid pull. The key thing will be what the annual solar generation pattern is like year round. You may struggle in the winter months to generate enough from the solar to top up the batteries and run the house. However, that said you'd not be pulling too much from the grid I suspect.
Thank you for a very informative, honest and well structured video. Much more convincing than the hype from suppliers.
Thank you for watching Richard, glad you found it usefulI. I appreciate your comment.
Excellent video, you put a lot of detail into that. As the prices of these installations continues to drop they will get more and more economical. So in addition to a 4 bedroom house you have three kilns. They must use a lot.
We only have one kiln on at a time. They use 5kW maximum on their longest programme. Which is about about 50 pence worth of electricity at cheap rates. Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed.
Thank you so much for such a well explained and informative video.
I’m thinking of buying a Tesla Powerwall 2 and your video is the best by far of all those that I have viewed.
Thanks again.
Thank you Michael for watching and glad it was useful.
Thank you for the video John.
That is good honest and valuable information for someone like me, who is still thinking about what to do (in the UK).
It's been equally advantageous reading the responses to this video.
It seems you have a good following/community, and you do respond well to comments. Thank you.
My pleasure Larry, thank you for watching. My channel is slowly growing which is great, I respond to every comment as I feel that's important.
The responses are often as insightful as the video as people give their differing perspectives and experiences. Makes for a great sharing of common ground, and sometime not so common ground.
A really informative video, I think I grasped most of it, however the one question I would ask is..
How much money are you saving by using solar, combined with electric cars ?
With the current fuel crisis, this reason alone would be a major factor in deciding on installing or not.
Is money saved on vehicle fuel included in your figures, or is that just another bonus.?
Thanks for watching. I'm working on an updated version of this video as I didn't include some savings, e.g. the electric cars as you pointed out.
With the current electricity and fuel prices we are seeing even larger savings than expected or forecast. The original video was purely about the powerwall battery and how it have performed. The updated video will cover all components in our setup and overall savings.
Very informative John. Thanks. It would be interesting to factor in the increased value of the property into your savings/return calculations. Of course equity value will change over time, but I would expect this to have quite an impact.
Thanks Andy, glad it was helpful.
Hmm, not thought about doing that. We would have a circa £200,000 profit if we did that. On 30/03/2001 it was £196,000 now £400,000 based on sales in 2019.
My whole house is solar powered…. The nearest grid is about 5km away😔. Being off grid devalues your house. But I love it.
Thank you for this input. Very interesting and to be honest I’d love to be in your shoes.
Thanks for this John! Really enjoyed the breakdown using figures and the lack of any bias. Keep them coming!
Thanks Edward, good to hear.
Thanks John, I used information from your earlier videos when deciding to install PV, Powerwall and Zappi. No regrets and we also have night storage heaters to add to the mix, but it still makes sense.
Good to hear thank you. Glad to hear you have no regrets that’s the outcome you want.
Great video and thanks for your open and honest stats. It seems that the financial benefit is slimmer than I thought 🤔 but I do appriciate that there are associated benefits beyond just the financial ones.
Thanks Richard, glad the data was helpful
As 2 retired individuals, 21,000 kWh is quite a large energy draw compared to an average household. As an individual who leaves home to work 4-5 times a week, I imagine that if the power wall can cover 26% of your usage, it could potentially cover nearly 100% of mine as I use around 7000 kWh and am usually home in the evenings when panels wouldn’t be generating. Very informative and useful video! Thank you
Thank you for watching James. Good pick up on individual usage, everyone's energy needs is different, as you point out we are not a typical usage case.
We do use a lot of energy. 2 x EVs, 2 x glass kilns, 1 x 13kW battery all adds up over the course of the year.
It does sound like a Powerwall would indeed cover your evening usage based on your data. Food for thought perhaps. Glad it was useful.
Nicely presented. Thanks very much for this insight into solar/power wall usage in the UK.
Thank you Kevin.
I have a very similar setup. Tho I've been on agile for the past 2 years and I keep my system on cost saving. The other benefit of the Powerwall (other batteries as well) is to raise the generation limit, as I'm only allowed to export 3.7 kWh. So can have a 6.2 kWp solar array with limiting inverter and just getting the simple DNO certification (well that was how it was when my system was put in).
For me, I use the Powerwall to avoid the 35p peak but can still use electricity to cook etc. There's no asking the rest of the family to turn things off constantly etc. I still do ask but it's not critical.
Great vid and good to see similar experiences to what I'm seeing.
This is a great point with the battery, especially the Powerwall which can delivery a constant 5kWh. We cook during peak often with the electric hob and oven both on, with our base house load we are just under the 5kWh. It's a no brainer.
Thank you for watching.
Hi John, One point not being made is how different the situation can be with a larger solar array. Most probably can't fit a 10kw array in the space available like we can but it makes a substantial difference to the figures. It also costs little extra at the fitting stage to add a few additional kw of panels. My main reason for looking at these is power cuts. There is nothing more frustrating than freezing during a winter power cut because your solar energy disconnects and all you need to power up the boiler controls is a few measly watts.
Good point, yes indeed.
The regulations as they are at the moment make it rather difficult to have a grid connected system that is rated at more than 4kW. I have a 4kW system for which I get FITS at the original rate so I am paid rather well for that. Any additional capacity would have to be connected past the generation meter but as I understand it, since the whole thing would exceed 4kW (or 16 amps at any grid voltage) different more onerous regulations apply. Is there any way around this?
Amazing thanks for sharing this I’m looking into getting one! I noticed you calculated based on 2 years being 48months :-| so the 18.39 a month may be half that? It’s really interesting to me though as my family are using so much energy and I have the long range tesla using even more!
Thanks for watching Darren. Yes I made an error on the calculations, there's a pinned comment to that effect. This was posted in Dec 2020 and the position on electric prices has changed considerable. I'm working on updating this video, however the short outcome is that it is almost certainly worth getting a home storage battery now! I cannot see electricity prices going anywhere until the green levies are removed by 2028 and the gas/electric pricing structure is revised to better reflect production efficiencies and carbon footprint.
I'm lucky to have a battery that enables me to use 100% of my solar production. Not had a usage bill in years (apart from standing charge). Very informative video, thanks for putting it up 👍👍
Thanks for watching Christopher. Impressive to run from solar and battery with no bill for years. That's many people's dream.
That’s our dream (see my longer comment). Can I ask for some details of your house (size I presume) and what your system is plus anything that you have done to enhance your ability not to buy from the grid? It would be particularly great if you know of, or used, an independent expert to guide you through. Thanks .
John, Great video - thank you! This is obviously more complex than I realised and you explained this really well with the number of variables and the changes. I would be interested in understanding the effect of the lower rates per therm with access to the Octopus rates. Can you give me an indication of the difference between your old rates and the average new lower rates please? I am now going to watch some of your other videos.
Sure, old rate was 17p/kWh up until August 2019, I'm now running on average 9p/kWh. However, that rate will change in August this year and will be circa 19p/kWh I suspect.
Great video John. Enjoyed watching. However with the cost benefits quoted, even if the Powerwall lasts much longer than the 10 year guarantee your looking at 25+ years to pay back. That said, with energy prices having soared in recent months to 25p+ per kWh this comes down somewhat. Even so, I think Tesla need to significantly reduce the price point of this system to ensure its financially beneficial in the long run.
Thanks for watching Matthew. Payback will depend on how you use your Powerwall and the import/export approach you take. As you point out the savings will only be right at the time of filming with electricity prices doubling, and most likely going up again in October in the second Price Cap review by OFGEM the return on investment will be sooner.
25 year payback is not worth it. And the issues of disposing and replacing the battery.
Batteries are being 100% of raw material recycled. Payback period is just a forecast it’s likely to be much sooner. However, everyday I get benefit from it and reduce my reliance on the grid.
@@johntisbury payback is actual numbers. I figure it at 35 years. Ya all elements are organic. Some more toxic than others
All the elements are naturally occurring and 100% recyclable. Unlike the alternative fossil fuels that are burn once.
Can you do a breakdown of the cost of the system including the cost of both solar arrays over their life span, the gateway and the eddi etc and break down the whole system cost into the savings for a final figure.
Hi Dom
A great question. I'm pulling together that very video at the moment as a number of people have asked for it.
Thanks for watching.
Cheers
John
Really helpful thanks, also recognised your glass room from your Fired Glass channel which I already subscribe to.
Haha, small world indeed Stephen! Glad it was helpful. Thanks for watching and subbing to FiredGlass. Top man!
Excellent video thanks for sharing. Sorry for the novice question, personally I would have liked to see the technology provide higher self powered %. On the cloudy days would increasing your Solar capacity have a significant impact on the self powered %? or is it the output is so low that you would need 5x capacity on those days? Two comments I realise that you expect the solar to go well beyond 10 years but it’s likely that the technology and efficiency will improve and replacement may make sense. Second you are charging two cars, currently running costs of the Model 3 are approx 1/3 of its diesel equivalent depending on your mileage there is significant savings there. Did you do any calculations to understand if the setup can make you self sufficient for your home emery needs only?
Thanks for watching Matthew.
A larger solar array would help to increase production in the winter months. In the UK even with a large solar array it can only produce 3 - 5 kWh for the day. Not enough to run a typical house on. The flip side is in the summer you would have too much excess production and export that to the grid, this is where a SEG tariff would be useful.
Solar lifetime is typically 25 years, the battery will also go on well past the 10 year guarantee period. Solar technology has not really come on much in the last 10 years. Only the price point has dropped. Battery technology is evolving rapidly, so that could be an area for upgrading in 10 years time for sure.
I didn't include cost savings from running 2 EVs / verse running 2 ICE cars, that saving would be impressive. As you say at lease 33% if not more.
The difficulty trying to work out how much you need for self-sufficiency is that it's only right at that point in time. It is difficult to forecast your energy usage going forwards. If you get a heat pump you electricity consumption will increase, an EV and so on. It can be difficult to predict that changes will be happening to you and your home in the future. Our electricity usage has more than doubled with 2 glass kilns and 2 EVs. We will no doubt get a heat pump at some point in the future.
@@johntisbury if you included the cost saving of the electric car charging, would you not also have to include the increased cost to purchase those cars as well?
Another great informative video John; I’m in the process of getting planning permission and would like a full setup just as yours....but the upfront cost is an issue, how much was your total system (Solar, Powerwall 2, Gateway, MyEnergi Systems etc) and how much has the whole system saved you; if you take what your system has produced and what you’ve used in total and workout what your saving / costs would be (at your average electric rate).....how long will it take to get you outlay back in savings....?
That's a tough question to answer in the comments section. I feel a video is required to cover this topic fully. Thanks for the suggestion.
Just as a tease, our total outlay for all our equipment is £27,880. However, if you were buying again today you could easily knock 40-50% off that figure.
John Tisbury - The would be a very useful and informative video if you did decide to do one.
Earlier in the year I had an estimate of around £8000 for a 5kWp SunPower system, so add in a PowerWall 2 and it would be about 40% less....
@@jno5 I will certainly do a video about it for sure. I've already created a folder on my computer for it!
The benefit of scale in manufacturing has really made an impact on the price of solar panels. Our original 4kWp system was from 2011 it was very expensive back then.
@@johntisbury If you had the solar installed in 2011 you would have surely received the best FIT rates at the time as did I in 2012. Having upgraded your system with extra Solar panels and the Powerwall have you been taken off those excellent FIT rates? I'm wary of upgrading in any way as these original FIT rates are guaranteed for 25 years and index linked.
I do get the gold plated FiT payments, although I’ve not included them in the savings shown here. When we added more solar in 2019 we added a completely separate system and left the original system intact.
Thank you for an interesting video mate !
Thanks for watching Robert.
Hi John - thanks very much for making such an excellent and helpful piece :)
Thank you for watching Christian, glad it proved useful for you.
I'm planning to make an updated version with newer energy rates, plus correct the maths error where I put 24 months into 1 year, rather than 12!
That intro lol and then the matey, best thing I’ve seen. Very informative thanks
Thanks for watching
I have now had mine for just over 1 year and at the same time, I doubled my solar as East / West location, adding a further 4KWh solar to the front of my home. The main save is that my use of electricity is now 89% night use, which has been a massive change from around 33% before the extra solar and Powerwall2.
So not only is there saving as you have worked out, but it is at the lower rate, therefore extra savings. Using your sums, I used 16,000 KWh for my home during the last 12 months, 27% Powerwall 2 from my Self Powered Lifetime. This is saved from my expensive daytime tariff of 19.35 pence, so £835.92 in the first year. This multiplied by 10 is £8359.20 meaning I have saved over my initial purchase price of the Powerwall 2 and I expect the savings to increase as electricity prices increase.
For extra information my Solar generation was approx 10,000 KWh. Great video and i must admit thinking of adding a second powerwall 2.....
Great to hear about your savings. As you point out, electricity prices have risen and will continue to do so, shortening the payback period.
@@johntisbury Thanks John and as mentioned, you have had extra savings when the powerwall fills at cheap rate and lets you use that instead of paying the high rate as in my nightrate offset figure. My daytime rate is approx 3x that of night, so again that would be a large saving! perhaps that is something you could add in to your calculations..???
This is very true. It’s very difficult to record how much electricity is used at cheap rate to charge the Powerwall without downloading the data from the app. I don’t feel the need to record and collect even more data.
Another well presented video John, I enjoyed watching it. I think you should have used a NPV (Net Present Value) calculation on your initial PW outlay to give a much better indication of its true value by taking into account what the initial outlay would be worth in say 10-years - buying power reduces each year due to inflation and the same applies to the value of system savings too. The problem with all of these calculations is; as you rightly mentioned, that the number of variables is so high that it really does make it quite impossible to work out. I think even if someone applied a highly rigorous analysis of all variables then they would not be able to summarise the benefits. I do all this for ecological reasons rather than anything else.
Thank you for watching David, you bring up some great points.
Interesting approach using NPV, I'd not thought about that. The Powerwall is not a tangible investment and those that think they will get a ROI in the short to medium terms will be disappointed. I perhaps didn't stress enough the ecological benefits and feel good factor in the video, giving just a small nod to using 26% less grid energy, plus we're not using grid power during peak demand periods when electricity is expensive and potentially dirtier to produce.
@@johntisbury David makes an important point. If you're considering the capital cost over a significant timeframe like 10 years, you really should factor-in that £57 this month won't have the same value in 10 years' time! I agree that a lot of people installing solar batteries are more motivated by environmental benefits and a limited degree of energy independence than having a very sharp pencil when it comes to the -exact- cost down to the last penny.
Really need to consider the potential income the original capital cost would deliver if invested as an alternative. What if it had been in TSLA shares?
If I had invested in Tesla shares I would be better off financially for sure. However, I'm no stock market analysis, pundit or toe dabbler. Not my thing.
great video, really informative, thanks. Could I ask, does the Tesla car charge smartly with the powerwall i.e. does it charge when there is surplus solar energy, does the powerwall app talk to the car app, or do you still need a zappi to divert your excess solar to your Tesla car? thanks
Thanks for watching Nick
The Powerwall is controlled by the Tesla app which also controls the car. However, unless you have the Tesla charger too they don't talk to each other. Hence the zappi. For me the zappi is smarter than the Tesla charger which is for all intents and purposes a dumb charger.
How my system works is the Powerwall takes priority and will charge to 100% from excess solar. Then the myenergi devices take over, the eddi for the hot water and the zappi for the cars. You can set the priority of the myenergi devices to decide which charges first, or split the surplus between them.
@@johntisbury Thanks John - how do you make sure you always have hot water - does the gas boiler know when the water has not been heated by the PV and top it up?
@@nickross1995 it depends on the time of year. In the summer we turn off the gas boiler and rely on using excess solar to heat the hot water. We may boost it in the early hours with cheap grid power if there's not enough solar during the day to reach the max temp for the water.
In the Winter the gas will heat the hot water to a set temp and then turn off, we typically run the boiler twice during the day for a couple of hours each time. In between the eddi will divert any excess solar, after the Powerwall has charged up, to top up the heat the hot water. That's done via the emersion heater and is set to 65 degrees.
Do the modes allow for the following use case? Charge off peak during octopus go 4hr window, discharge during all peak times, and use solar where possible to top up during peak? I only have a small 2.6kw pv which won’t generate enough even in summer for the full 24 hours, but I do want to leverage it as much as possible. I estimate I’d probably need about 5-10kwh charged overnight to carry me through depending on season (5 in summer, 10 in spring)
No they don’t, you cannot force export. You can add your outgoing rates (recent feature after this video) and let the Powerwall manage export. However you lack full manual control.
It should be possible to look back two years and find out what tariff you would probably have been on if you hadn't had the solar/powerwall system. So you could just calculate the baseline cost using that tariff for the two year period. If variable rates would make it too complicated (and not knowing the time of usage), you could use the "average cost" figures that must be around somewhere. Compare that to what you actually paid and you have another estimate for the savings that you can compare to the number you presented in the video.
Good suggestion Pieter, I'd not thought of doing that.
Well done John, I got one question about the two electric cars that you charge at home. This I would be a cost saving due to the fact of not having gas purchases. I think this should be added to your overall saving for your systems. Thanks
Good point David, I’m planning a video that covers everything, so will include that.
@@johntisbury how would be a cost saving ? the money you would of spent on buying electric cars would of paid for two normal petrol cars and upkeep for a few years .
@@dougrennie5668 agreed that the cost of buy a brand new electric car is more than the equivalent ICE powered car. However, many reports have determined that running one is around 70% cheaper over an ICE car. That figure is probably higher with the current fuel prices.
Since making this video we have sold one of our EVs, with marginal depreciation after 3 years and purchased a secondhand EV for 14K. Comparable to any secondhand ICE car price point.
Source for costs: www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/466/what-cost-running-electric-car
Great video John! Loads of detail but easy to follow and understand. Subbed.
Thank you Mark, that's great to hear. Thanks for the sub too. I am about to record a new video that looks at our whole system, the total costs, the savings and payback. Including EVs and so on. Should be live very soon.
@@johntisbury awesome! I’m waiting delivery of my EV, and considering getting solar / Zappi and (probably a bit later) a Powerwall so this is essential learning! 👍
Very cool video! Happy new year ! :)
Thank you. Happy New Year to you too.
Have you thought about going on the Tesla energy plan from octopus? It’s something I’m considering switching to from spring to autumn.
I have Jim yes. There’s a couple of things that put me off. Mainly giving control of my Powerwall to Tesla to fill and empty as they need it. Also to get signed up for the tariff you need to provide proof from your DNO that they have approved your installation. I’m not sure whether that’s a one off, or you need to do it every time you change tariffs.
@@johntisbury Thanks John thats just what i thought about the Tesla plan and i hadnt really investigated in , But i like to have control .
Yeah, I’m like it’s my ball! ⚽️ 😂
@John Tisbury Agreed. I’m not the biggest fan of giving away control of it but with net metering it kind of makes sense. 11p in/out is a good deal. But the way it’s ‘anticipated’ the weather/my forecasted usage I’m not sure I trust it’s ability to predict much of anything really.
@@jimhailwood2873 I don't think Tesla get the UK weather!
Hi John, 21,000kwh seems like a lot (or is that both years still 11ish). I have a large 3 bed house and a Tesla M3 i use less than 4,000 kwh a year. I can't do any man math to install a battery as much as i would like one for the hell of it. Since getting solar i have spent much more time making sure i preserve power when needed and as such my annual bill for electric is around £300. For me proper management of passive electricity use has been the biggest saver nearly halfling my bill. At £300 a year it would take around 25 years to break even if a PW2 reduced my bill to zero which it would not. It costs nothing to drill down into your usage of power and reduce it, i think this should be the first step for many people.
Thanks Darren for watching. Yes, the 21,221kWh home usage is over 2 years. Solar generation was 11,644kWh.
100% support looking at reducing usage, it's the same with making the property as energy efficient as possible with insulation, cutting draughts, LED light bulbs etc. That's the first thing I did before getting the Powerwall and additional solar, and I'm still doing it. During lockdown I cleaned behind every radiator in the house and the fins at the back which collect lots of dust and reduce the efficiency of heat convection. Amazing how dusty and filled with fluff they were, our heating is much more effective now.
I guess the glass kiln will take a fair bit of power as will 2x electric cars! Have you thought about an air source heat pump for heating and hot water?
We have a 4 bed, and looks like 4500 a year , we both work full time, average units are about 350-400kwh per month, what things have you done that reduce your energy consumption, i cant think of how we can get ours down lower, ( wife works from home at the moment but hasn't added much ) all lights are led, and are smart so there often turned off automatcily by schedules at night etc, Did solar make a big difference to your bills?
@ James Sturman we have done quite a few upgrades to reduce our energy consumption. Mainly to the fabric of the building to reduce heat loss and improve the insulation qualities of the house. I've covered these points in later videos, one example here: ruclips.net/video/PVlJIoZBXo4/видео.html
@Peter Kent apologies for the slow reply, only spotted your question when diving into the comments to answer another question. We have looked into ASHP but there are too many constraints and compromises to make it work financially and aesthetically. I did a video on the thought process here: ruclips.net/video/PVlJIoZBXo4/видео.html
Well done your video is exactly what we need to hear. It would be interesting to hear from you on the charging of both cars and how you optimise and factor this into the costing.
Thank you for watching Bernard.
In terms of both EVs I cover the detail of this each month in my monthly solar update video. These videos cover monthly mileage, how much charging with public and home chargers. The split between solar and grid for home charing. The cost of charging.
We don't do too much mileage a year therefore our grid pull for car charging is very low. Over the past 12 months we've average 150kWh per month from the grid in car charging which would be at the off-peak 5p/kWh = £7.50 per month (we had some time on Agile and some on Go, but for ease of calculating I've used the Go tariff).
Very informative John, thanks for posting
Thanks for watching Sean.
Very interesting video and more interesting in how different our stats are. I have a 7.7 Kwp system with gateway 2 and powerwall 2 however one hell of a lot more power generated in 12 months (9Mwh) as such the maths changes a lot. Secondly the Gateway 2 has allowed me not to buy UPS's for my servers and arguably saved well over its cost. I reckon pay back in about 9 years but to be honest its not all about the payback is it. sods law though ive had no outages at all during the 14 months ive had my system.... well apart from me testing things.
Thanks for watching Jeremy our stats are very different aren't they. The larger solar array is certainly catching more sunshine and would make a large difference in terms of savings. Totally agree about return on investment not being the main driver.
With the Gateway 2 at least you have peace of mind if and when you have an outage - that's always a bonus. I looked at getting ours upgraded to a Gateway 2, but just not worth the cost tbh.
Have you tried an "artificial" power outage by flicking a grid master switch? Would be interesting to confirm whether the switching to Powerwall backup is quick enough for your servers not to be affected.
Great explanation and very helpful. Financially not so good as payback is probably over your own lifetime. For those concerned more about carbon emissions and self reliance it may make sense but to me at age 73 its a no go scenario.
Thanks James for watching and you make a fair point about payback. Most home battery solutions will struggle to give a payback.
Not aimed at you but I do think that perhaps we're a little too programmed to think that way due to sales and marketing spiel of products. Double glazing stating savings on energy bills, insulation companies stating savings on energy bills, solar panel companies stating savings on energy bills. Whilst some of these products do and will get a return on investment it's not guaranteed or it's a long payback period. How often do we expect a return on our investment when we buy a new car, a gas boiler a new bathroom, kitchen or similar. Just my thoughts for a Sunday morning! LOL
As you point out those concerned with their carbon footprint and wanting to be self-reliance and cut down on grid usage, then a home storage battery makes perfect sense. As a return on investment, not so much.
@@johntisbury I buy a new car when the old one is uneconomical to repair. That's why I'm driving a 20year old van with 450,000 miles on the clock.
My boiler and bathroom are the same. If it's working, it's staying.
The last time the bathroom got a refit was when the bath cracked.
The kitchen was fitted over 40 years ago. It still works.
Hi John, enjoying the videos! Quick question - I now have my Powerwall. How do you manage zappi boost during octopus go window? I hear it drains the battery even with ‘avoid drain’ setting when it’s on a boost. Thanks!
Hi Daniel, thanks for watching the videos.
I don't have a problem during the Octopus Go window with charging the car from the grid, it never takes power from the battery. My settings are: Setting > Time-Based Control. Advanced option Grid Charging set to Yes. Utility Rate plan for the Schedule is Super Off-Peak for the Go period and Peak for the rest of the day. Pricing is as per my rates; £0.08 and £0.34 for buy price. Sell price is £0.01 for both Super Off-Peak and Peak.
The zappi will pull power from the battery during the peak period if I set it to charge and there's no solar. It will pull from the grid if I schedule a charge during the Go period. Hope that helps.
@@johntisbury I’ll give it a go tonight then! Thanks John!
@@danieltpope2518 let me know how you get on. My fingers are crossed for you.
This is really informative video. Thank you John. Just wonder if I get 4 of the Tesla Powerwall2 without solar panels and charge them from the grid using the night tariff from Octopus during 00:30 to 4:30 am I should be able to run my house with electric wall mounted radiators (oil filled), which in total come to 8 to 9 Kw if running all heating at the same time. Any suggestions?
Thank you for watching. It is possible to do what you have stated, however as always there will be wrinkles in the plan. The DNO will have to approve the application of 4 Powerwalls, they are unlikely to approve that without you being on a 3 phase supply due to the potential to export large amounts back to the grid. Octopus Energy require uses to own an EV to be able to use the Go Tariff you refer to. You would perhaps be better looking at a solar and Powerwall mix. Today for example we generated 20kWh of energy from our panels which we stored in the Powerwall and used to run the house during the day and into the evening. Personally I'm not sure you can rely longterm on a energy tariff you have no control over. It may make sense now, but what will it be in 5 years time.
@@johntisbury Thanks for your quick response. I already own a Tesla Model 3. I currently charge it via standard wall socket. I am already on night tariff with Octopus. As far as getting solar panels, I am not sure because of the weather conditions in the UK and whether my house is best placed direction wise. Having 3 phase connection not sure, it will be good to know the cost of installing it and its running cost. I was thinking to get rid of gas connection or stop using gas. For that reason I am happy to switch from gas boiler to electric wall mounted oil radiators in all of the house. That means running heating at a given time, it will be 8 to 9kw electricity, that's excluding dryer, tv, light, induction cooker if any of those being used at the same time. Any thoughts will be appreciated.
I would get solar over a home battery. Even in the UK on a grey day you will generate some electricity. I covered solar and home battery in another video; ruclips.net/video/nei3eku_X5Q/видео.html
You appear to be well setup and I applaud your thinking around gas and going electric. I’m a firm believer in micro generation. Using or storing the energy you produce at home is the most environmentally friendly way to reduce your carbon footprint. Don’t discount solar as an energy source .
Great video and very interesting though I have to say it doesn’t blow my hair back on wanting to go self sufficient. For me I want a way to be much closer to 100% self sufficient, so it seems costs for solar panels and batteries need to come down much more before we really start to get a big take up of these green energies!
Thanks for watching Wayne. Yes price point is a stumbling block for many, prices are coming down, plus the recent Spring Statement of 0% VAT will be an incentive.
I've had my Powerwall 2 since August 2017, performance lifetime 46% solar 54% Powerwall. Selfpowered is easy when you live in Australia. And I also own a Ev and a sanden heat pump for hotwater, AC and heating is electric. Power outages, quite a few and long lasting 13 hours and 45 minutes for the longest, I was the only house with power in my street. How to piss your neighbours off when its dark during a blackout, open your curtains.
Thank Mark, geographical location is everything. Lol at curtains sideshow! Thanks for your stats, 54% self-powered is impressive with AC and heat pump.
That's Powerwall 54% + 46% solar =100% selfpowered
@@marktiller1383 ah got it, even better then! :-)
Is that South Australia
Thanks John, very informative presentation and helpful as I am considering all things Solar power for my house. Thanks again.
Thank you for watching Michael.
I'm about to upload a new video titled along the lines of 'So you want solar (and a home storage battery)' in the next couple of days which also may be helpful to you.
Brilliantly presented, well explained and very informative, great job.
Thank you Jon, appreciate your time in watching and commenting.
except all the figures quoted are complete bollox
How did I miss that! Thanks to @bonbon who pointed this out.
@15:04 should have been times 24 months, not 48! This means the saving is £36.78 per month. So £57 - £36.78 = £20.22 per month for the cost of the Powerwall! Even better value!
I have not included the cost of the solar installation for 2 reasons. First, the 2011 4kW solar install had paid for itself with FiT payments by Dec 2018, the same month the battery was installed. Secondly, the video was about the Tesla Powerwall 2 battery and was it worth it. Whilst it's part of an overall system, it was this component I was concentrating on.
lol thats 20 more for your energy.... lol I think it would sound more reasonable if you said "I am happy to pay a extra 20 a month to have all of that 30% be green energy" .
Oh nice. I recon with agile + if electricity prices increases + green factor + convenience = it's going to be worth it in the end with hopefully neutral cost/small profit.
Totally, it’s not all about financial payback!
Battery production is not green; it takes a lot of energy to produce. Best way to save energy, if you want to be green is to keep your old car running so that a new one doesn't have to be manufactured.
@@chrissowerby69 agree but there does come a point where the other resources (time and financial viability) make it prohibitive. At that point moving away from fossil fuels makes sense to a lot of people.
This is the problem I have every time I look at battery storage, it can't be justified financially as the payback period is far too long for a normal person.
Putting £7k into something that hopefully pays for itself in over 10 years (at which point the warranty has run out) is something only an enthusiast will do.
I like the idea of it in theory, but until it actually pays for itself, in reality, it's a non-starter.
This is very true. Until home battery storage becomes more mass market the benefits of volume production reducing the price. Today's price points and payback time will be the stumbling block for many.
Tesla Powerwall is top of the range for home battery storage solutions and there are other more affordable options, however as with most things, if you are price led, then the product range you are looking at may have reduced features, performance or longevity.
@@johntisbury Alas the Powerwall is not the top of the range battery in the market, you're fallen for their marketing, it's made with grade B cells, we were offered exclusive rights on the Powerwall in the UK market when Tesla first launched it years ago, but our insurers wouldn't allow us to touch them, we can only get insurance on grade A cells, thank god, because we now do a battery with a much higher capacity, costs way less and has a 15-year warranty with individually replaceable cells, force charge ready and in stock, sales are flying, we're killing the Powerwall with it in the UK.
@@johntisbury can you send me details of your batteries please
@@DaveJonesTrevescan what details did you want other than what is already in the video and in the description below the video?
@@GM-ii8gs Mhm, and why don't you give a company/brand name? Why do you only mention Tesla? Do some advertising, why won't you? That's quite strange huh? Who are these 'we' you keep mentioning?
Thanks for sharing your information and data John. Well appreciated
No problems, this video is rather out of date now as it will be 2 years ago since upload with the data being 2 years before then. There's a newer video I've done which covers all our costs and savings across our whole setup, rather than just the Powerwall.
Hi John,
Do you religiously check on a daily basis the price schedule and change to reflect the cheapest Agile prices. Or do you set it between a set time and keep it the same?
Hi Justin, thanks for watching. I leave it set, never change it. The downside with swapping the peak and off-peak on a frequent basis is that it throws the Powerwall's algorithm awry and therefore reduces is effectiveness if you are in Cost Saving Mode. This info is from Tesla Powerwall techs.
@@johntisbury thanks for the reply. I’ve had my Powerwall since 1st Feb and just came over to Agile a couple of days a go. I looking forward to the end of the month to see how my figures compare to yours. Let’s all hope for some more sunshine.
Apologies in advance for all the questions:
I wonder if there are benefits to having two powerwall2 units?
Also wonder how the battery of an Kia EV6 with its vehicle to grid functionality might fit in with your setup?
Did you consider and air to water heat pump to run alongside your solar?
What is the total output rating of your solar array? You expanded your array. How did you calculate the size to be optimal?
No problems, questions are always welcome.
I wonder if there are benefits to having two powerwall2 units? Yes and no. In the Winter yes, in the summer no. For our usage in the summer months we can be self-powered from sunshine for 4 to 5 months, depending on house power usage. In the winter there is not enough sunshine to allow this so having extra battery power would be helpful.
Also wonder how the battery of an Kia EV6 with its vehicle to grid functionality might fit in with your setup?
V2G is certainly a great idea, the Hyundai and Kia both offer good options. However they are expensive solution and not always sat on the driveway.
Did you consider and air to water heat pump to run alongside your solar?
I have, I've done a separate video on that ruclips.net/video/PVlJIoZBXo4/видео.html In short, at present it's too costly to retrofit to our house.
What is the total output rating of your solar array? You expanded your array. How did you calculate the size to be optimal?
Total output is 6.34kW/p. The second array story was covered here: ruclips.net/video/CLigHm8sFaU/видео.html Short answer is the largest I could fit on the available roof space.
@@johntisbury that was quick 👍. Thanks. You get a sub for that. Going to look forward to exploring you channel.
Very good explanation, I appreciate the work put into this video.
Thank you.
Great video John! Just one Absolutely key part you missed in your savings is the price of petrol/diesel! (Apologies if you did and I missed it.)
Like you say, too many variables to factor in. The only way to get a good overview imo would be to compare what what you would be paying right now if you put all that setup in the bin and went back to gas,electric and petrol/diesel.
Fascinating stuff there and I’ll keep a look out for update videos from you.
All the best 👌🏼
You are right, I did miss the savings from petrol/diesel. Thank you for watching.
This video is almost 2 years old now, I've updated it with a newer version. ruclips.net/video/ahgujS15zes/видео.html
Great video as always John. I’m interested in knowing whether you tinker with your peak / off peak and shoulder settings. For instance with a recent plunge event, I set peak just after plunge event to force a charge. Btw I’ve gathered my November ASHP stats into a PowerPoint which will become a video soon, in short it’s added 17kWh to our daily house consumption or about £1.58 a day for a 4 bed detached providing all heat and hot water.
Hi Darren thanks for watching.
I don't tinker no, I leave it and forget it. I've heard that some people who tinker too much end up confusing the algorithm and getting worse performance from their Powerwall as it doesn't know if its coming or going. I can understand the benefit from the odd tweak as you mention, adjusting to take the benefit from a plunge pricing event makes perfect sense.
I look forward to seeing your November stats video especially with your ASHP, thanks for the heads-up.
Very interesting and thorough, thank you. You have saved me a lot of money
Thanks for watching, glad it was useful
Hello John, I have a question regarding what did you use for creating hot water, prior to installing the Powerwall? When anyone else does their calculations whatever fuel was being used before and now replaced with electricity should also be factored in as a saving.
In my own case as I live in a very rural area, oil via a boiler was used. During the summer this was used for hot water (rightly or wrongly). I now generate all my hot water via electricity since installing 2.8kw PV. I have data going back further than 2 years, cost of oil hot water €300 per year. As price of oil now doubled since last year that saving will be €600 going forward. Or €50 per month. My point is those using your calcs need to take their current cost of hot water into account making case for rural dwellers on oil based far better.
Your question regarding other calculation solutions at present is solved by my previous employer, at present they only support large industrial users. I’m going to ask them if they will allow one off houses access. If you contact me I’ll inform you of their response.
Good question. I used gas to heat the hot water. Our eddi was installed in July 2019 so from there on surplus solar was used except in the non-solar times when it would have been gas. Agreed, I'd not factored this into the savings.
I hope you get the result you are after with your previous employer on monitoring / calculations. Yes I'd be interested to hear how you get on if they respond.
@@johntisbury thanks it was my job for last 40 plus years before I retired. Let’s see what they say.
I've just discovered your channel, so thanks for what you said in this one. You imply you have some understanding of the Tesla Powerwall 2 algorithm for overnight charging. After very few months of ownership I am still bewildered by why it sometimes charges up fully and then a day or two later fails to charge up just when our weather makes greater demands necessary. Where did you discuss all this?
Welcome to my channel. A bit like RUclips's algorithm there's no hard and fast rules, plan or timetable you can refer to for Tesla's algorithm. However, there are some things you can do to improve its consistency.
The Tesla Powerwall algorithm takes into account a number of factors; weather forecast (depending on your region as not everywhere has it yet), house usage, surplus solar, grid export. If you have fairly consistent usage pattern then it will perform better. Outlier days in terms of high usage, low solar production, poor weather for the following day can throw it out of kilter leaving you with not enough charge in the battery, or too much. It's not perfect, in my experience it gets it right far more often than it gets it wrong. It is designed as a set and forget system which is why Tesla does not give users manual controls to override it.
Micro managing the charging via the backup % for guaranteed charging can certainly work. However, Tesla do say that the more you fiddle and intervene then the less accurate the algorithm will be.
Thanks for the video which is now very pertinent! Was the cost quoted just the battery? Or did it include panels and installation? Obviously, with energy security issues and huge hikes now here, the whole thing looks more appealing, especially when linked to high inflation.
Thanks for watching. Price was just the battery. I’m just finishing off a video on our complete setup, costs and savings, to be uploaded very soon.
Hi John, I had my power wall installed in mid December after a 6 month wait. Can I ask a question regarding the settings in the app and how you manage them. I have noticed that during winter I need to set the settings to time of day in order for the power wall to charge overnight on the cheap octopus go tariff. However, when the sun comes up, if I leave time of day selected, any solar gets exported to the grid, and does not top up the battery back to 100%. I therefore have to change the settings in the morning to self sufficient mode in order to capture the solar in the battery. I have twice forgotten to change the settings and resulted in my battery being flat in the morning. Are you aware of anyway to automate the changes between the settings? I assume this annoyance only lasts during the winter and during the spring and summer you just set it to self sufficient mode. cheers John
I'd suggest firstly looking at the monetary values you have plugged into the Utility Rate Plan in the app. Check what the Sell Price is set to, mine is at £0.01, which is the lowest allowable value. If the Powerwall sees that it's more economical to sell the excess solar back to the grid over charging the Powerwall it will do just that. You can also confirm in Advance Options at the bottom of Operational Mode (where you set Self-Powered or Time-Based Control) the option of Grid Charging. Set this to Yes if you want it to charge from the grid, set it to No and it will only charge from solar. Mine is set to Yes and charges off-peak on Go tariff. Any excess solar always goes to charge the power wall and never exports unless everywhere is full.
A final point on the Utility Plan, set the Go rates against Super Off Peak, rather than Off-Peak, I've found this is beneficial for charging too.
@@johntisbury Hi John, thanks for taking the time to respond. It worked a treat and now works as I would expect. I did not notice the sell values in the plan section and they were set to the same value as what it cost me to buy, so now downgraded as you suggested. thanks again. John
Perfect, glad to hear it worked.
Very informative. Am now looking to add a Powerwall and more solar capacity to my 4Kw system similar to your set up. Of course, one shouldn’t only measure the benefits of all this in financial terms. It’s your contribution to future generations but we’ve yet to find a way to calculate it as such.
Agree with your thought process about reducing your carbon footprint and impact. More solar and a Powerwall will certainly achieve that. I hope your plan works out for you.
Hi John, very interesting, thank you. On the cost saving front, the benefit of the Power Wall is surely that it enables you to shift your energy usage and make effective use the variable tariff. I am very interested to know the difference between your actual energy cost and what you would have paid on a fixed tariff.
Thanks Richard, I’m just finishing off a video to cover that very point. Plus cover overall costs of everything we’ve installed and payback period.
It's also worth mentioning that it gives you a bit of peace of mind. Knowing that if the power grid is down. You wont have as hard a time. It's also much more quite then a large generator and a lot less regular maintenance. Once a few weeks outside with a hose isnt nearly as bad as regular servicing and checks on the generator.
Tho I would still have a small generator on the side for those real dark times.
Thanks for watching, great points on the downsides of a generator.
Our Powerwall has the original Gateway 1 which does not have the backup facility. That facility became available with the Gateway 2, which has now superseded version 1.
Does your £8000 initial cost include the cost of solar panels? You said about buying some more 12 months in. Is this added on? Looking at whole cost per saving especially with rising fuel costs. Does that include labour and parts
Thanks for watching Alex and good questions.
The savings quoted were only ever correct at that point in time. If we look at current energy prices in the UK which have doubled/tripled, then the savings will be dramatically reduced. Energy prices are only ever going to be going one way.
In this video I just looked at the battery cost in isolation rather my whole system. What I didn't mention is we get FiT payments which have already covered the cost of the solar array that I was referring to. The battery cost has also been covered by the FiT payments and the additional solar array fitted in late 2019 will also be recouped next year.
I am about to record a new video that looks at our whole system, the total costs, the savings and payback. Including EVs and so on. Should be live very soon.
Thank You for this informative video!
Thank you for watching Jasmun
Great video with a balanced stance. I very much enjoyed the detailed analysis of the setup. One would think if everyone done this we would not be in such a compromised position
Thank you. Agreed, the rush for rooftop solar and batteries has gone mainstream now, well past early adopters in the change curve.
Did the cost of installing the power wall 2 and the gateway 1 include the first set of solar panels ?
In this video I just looked at the battery cost in isolation rather my whole system. What I didn't mention is we get FiT payments which have already covered the cost of the solar array that I was referring to. The battery cost has also been covered by the FiT payments and the additional solar array fitted in late 2019 will also be recouped next year.
All seems fine,good project.I am on the way.Only one thing I want to ask that in UK ,you can only install 3.65kw in single phase and 9kw in three phase supply system.
How you installed more than 3.65kw system ...?
I installed 3.65kw and looking to extend it to 5kw,haven't got clue yet....
Hi Rakesh, thank you for watching. You may want to watch my video so you want solar ruclips.net/video/nei3eku_X5Q/видео.html as this explain the limits on solar installs and approval process in a little more detail. In short, if it's below 3.68kW then it's reapproved by your DNO. If it's above then there's a different form and work cannot start before approval. Most installers will suggest the first option as it's quicker, guaranteed to be installed so it's a win for them and a win for the customer.
Thanks for reply re supply costs , I picked up on the wholesale link and had visions of you getting horrendous rates with the recent problems over the last few months .
I’m in the process of re development and need to decide financially which route to go down along with quality considerations .
No problems, it is certainly uncertain times at present. However as we know in the longterm energy prices are only going to go one way.
Great video, very informative as I’m doing research into whether to get a PV and battery setup. Do you think it makes even more sense when you combine with an EV as well.
Thanks for watching. I think any setup that gives you options is a good thing. The 13.5kW in the battery is not a massive amount if you want to charge an mid to long range EV as it won’t add much into the EV battery to make much impact on its overall state of charge. However, many people use it as a buffer. In the summer they will dump from the battery then have the PV top up the battery again. So bouncing the power. As I say gives you options
You've not explained how you set up the system to maximize the savings available from being on the Octopus Agile tariff. Do you have to enter the next day's 30min buy and sell rates into a phone app manually?
Thanks for watching. The only thing you can plug into the Tesla app is the Peak and Off peak timeslots. So the 4pm - 7pm is peak, the rest is off-peak. There's no facility to drill down to the 30 minute rate changes it's more high level. It's not perfect, but so long as you shift your usage away from peak then it works fine.
@@johntisbury So no-one offers software that tracks the Agile prices and forward plans times to charge and discharge?
Very detailed video thank you.
I am thinking on getting a tesla power wall and still haven't decided.
You haven't mentioned anything about the solar panels cost?
Thank you for watching.
A good question, my solar panels have already paid for themselves with our FiT (Feed In Tariff ) payments, so factoring them in again would mean result in double counting. The solar panels were installed 8 years before the Powerwall was installed, with a second array installed 12 months after the Powerwall. Even if we didn't have FiT payments I took the decision that they were not part of the Powerwall installation and therefore did not need to be factored into the costs of the Powerwall.
It's difficult to determine where to draw the line in terms of what to include and what to exclude in costs. Do you include solar panels even though they were not part of the Powerwall installation. If you decide to include the solar panel costs what about the cost of the house as without the roof for the panels to sit on the panels they would not exist. Perhaps a bit extreme, but you hopefully see my point.
@@johntisbury
Thank you for your swift response and feedback.
Hi John, new subscriber to your channel. Can I ask for your opinion on whether I should wait o go ahead and buy a power wall 2. We live in a eco friendly house with solar 4kw array, rain water harvest system and ground source heat pump. We only have electric no gas. I recently leased a Nissan Leaf specifically for its ability to do vehicle to grid as is being trialled currently in the south with octopus. Should I wait to see the results of the trial and not get a powerwall2 in, anticipation the trial will be a success and therefore give me a mobile 40kw battery to use or play safe and get one installed anyway. My initial thoughts are to wait and maybe look to improve other components of our generation, for example adding wind turbines as we are on top of a hill and have lots of wind. Replace my inverter with a newer more intelligent version with higher capacity, We could also add more solar. Thanks for the video. Very useful. Kind regards John
Thanks for subscribing John, I appreciate that.
Interesting proposition, my instant feeling after reading your post is wait for the V2G outcome over a Powerwall. This option makes sense as you are already leasing the car, however what are you long-term plans with the car. Chademo is currently the only adapter that features 2 way charging. The CCS standard across the UK and Europe will eventually have that and we will see less and less Chademo adapters. The chademo ties you into a very niche choice of vehicles, nothing wrong with the cars, just limits choice. Waiting for the outcome of the trial is a good idea, however I think it will be a positive outcome.
An upgrade would be a sensible interim solutions, either more solar or wind generation. You will need a big windmill on tall 3m - 5m pole match the yearly output of a 4kWp solar installation. Knowing what Class wind area will help you decide on suitability, ideally Class 1 or 2 is best. It will give the benefit of daytime and nighttime generation. Planning application will be needed for a wind turbine, so don't know if you have neighbours who are eco friendly or NIMBYs.
Inverters have a 10-15 year lifespan, don't know what rating you have currently with your 4kW array. A new inverter may improve things, but it will be marginal improvement at best.
My two pence worth would be look towards investigating more solar or wind generation to counter some of the electricity consumption from your GSHP.
Thanks John really appreciate this video
Thanks for watching Bill, glad it proved useful.
I have the Gateway 2 & Powerwall 2, interestingly that when the Powerwall is being charged by solar I always have a small charge (30 to 60W) coming from the grid. When the Powerwall is either fully charged or discharging nothing showing coming from the grid. I was told that the Gateway 2 needs to see a voltage from the grid, in case it has to go into ‘back up’ mode. I have had 12 ‘back up’ events in 18 months of usage, ranging from 26 seconds to 3 mins. Interestingly the Eddi was picking up when the sub station was routinely switching over transformers, myEnergi have increased the time for a fault detection as part of a update.
The Eddi is very fast at detecting changes in supply, that's one of its major benefits.
Makes sense on the Gateway 2 needing to see a charge. The Gateway 1 works in a similar fashion in terms of a trickle from the grid when charging. Obviously it has no backup facility like yours does.
A very well worded and presented video. Thank you. I have a similar setup but house consumption is only a little over the 13.5 kWh so Octopus Go most days we only pay 5p a unit. We did get the gateway. About a month ago Tesla upgraded our system so cost saving works in a new way. It now asks for price paid. With our figures it sends all solar to the grid and at the same time discharges the battery exactly the right amount to run the house.Then charges up to 100% overnight. Without the solar panels that makes the battery saving simple to calculate.as about £39 a month with our current tariff. Strange times and new tariffs look to increase the value a little. However over 10 years this still does not really justify the install cost.
Our Solar reduces CO2 by offsetting others consumption!
Thank you for watching and glad you found the format interesting. It is indeed strange times cost wise. I’ve added the costs into the Tesla app, we don’t have SEG so keep export price to 0.00 which stops export unless everything is full!
Good video and I completely agree that calculating costs is difficult. The key problem is the way that you approach energy usage changes. I am guessing in the last 2 years you have moved to electric vehicles so are using no petrol or diesel . Your hot water has moved from being primary powered by gas to in the summer months by electricity. I believe that looking at the breakdown of how much energy was consumed per platform is better. We have had solar for 2 years and our usage has gone from around 3000kwh a year to 5000kwh a year for electricity. Before the lux system was put in, 70% of generated energy was exported and now with 20kwh of storage we are running close to only 30% exported. We no longer pay £60 a month for fuel for the car and now pay £15 a month in winter to run a Zoe and likely almost nothing between march and October. Our gas bill between march and October is just the standing charge. Given our usage has increased our yearly energy bill has reduced by 50% and is almost covered by the fit tariff. Will our system pay back time be within the warranty ? By the look of it it will. My main man maths justification is that the system has reduced monthly outgoings and does not cost any servicing. With working from home being more of the new normal having power generated at your work place and available cheaply needs to be a consideration. Finally there is the octopus agile tariff. This is more complicated, as it stands I need to set the batteries to charge during the usual cheap times to take advantage of the rates during the winter months, as Feb and march approaches I can reduce the soc figure to a point of self consumption.
Thanks John and a good call on looking at a per platform consumption - a good idea.
Have you heard of Tesla energy services ( electric company basically) , the price seemed to offer some great advantages?
What are your thoughts
Hi, thanks for watching. Yes I've heard and investigated the TEP via Octopus Energy. It's a great concept, 8p/kWh and no standing charge. My reservation is around giving control of my Powerwall to Tesla to charge / discharge as they wish.
Thanks John, clearly explained
Thank you Leo for watching.
Great video presenting an end-user perspective of the market leading domestic electricity power storage device.
Thank you for watching
With the savings you make each year, How long will it take for the installation to pay for its self? Thanks.
Hi Chris
A tricky question to give a definitive answer to. I think the fundamental point is that having a home battery will save you money however there are a whole raft of variables and options that will need to be considered when working out any savings. Home electricty usage, size of the battery, size of the solar array, electric tariff rate, whether you are SEG or not and so on. I think to take away is that it won't necessarily pay for itself within the warranty period of 10 years. There are as mentioned in the video lots more benefits to a home storage battery over financial savings.
Ours has already been paid for because of our FiT payments. The profit from those goes back into making improvements to our overall system and our the thermal efficiency of our house.
So, to summarise.
Would you have benefited from a larger battery, more solar panels ... or is it the actual outlay that defines whether there is an advantage or not ?
If the cost had been reduced by (competent persons) DIY installlation, i guess you would have been jumping for joy ?
Thanks
Thanks for watching. Agree with your points about a competent DIY installation and reduction in costs that would bring. It's not something that I have the skills nor inclination to do to be fair. However it is a valid route which many people take.
More solar panels and a larger battery would certainly be useful, however for us it's only needed during the winter months. In summer we are fairly self-sufficient. We do not have any more space to add any more panels.
Since making this video back in December 2002 I've come to the conclusion that for me the decision to install solar / home storage battery should not only be about return on investment. For many people that does seem to be the driver for taking the plunge or deciding against it. We have reduced our carbon footprint, reduced the amount of grid energy we pull, plus we've been able to reduce our demand during the peak time helping in some small way to even out the grid. I would still make the same choices if I had to do it again. From that perspective I feel it was the right thing to do.
Thankfully there are more and more solar and battery solutions available on the market at all price points. This give people choice and makes it more achievable for a wider range of budgets.
Thanks for sharing. How are you warming your home? I also have a PV array and I’m considering air source heat pump which is electrically powered.
I’d also like to transition to a BEV and I’d like to hear how your combined home and transport system is performing technically and financially.
Looking forward to your follow up video this time next year, especially given the astronomical cost of living and fossil fuel increases!
Thanks for watching. We currently use gas for central heating, only. Hot water heated by electricity via immersion heater from excess solar or cheap off-peak.
We have 2 EVs, a Tesla Model 3 for long trips, a Zoe 22kW for local journeys. We have a myenergi zappi which can charge the cars from excess solar or from the grid. We only have the one charger and swap between the two cars. We have a 8m long lead so we don't have to do the car shuffle every time we want to charge.
I've just finished recording the update video, so that will be uploaded later this week.
Hi John, thanks for a very interesting video. Forgive me if this is covered elsewhere, but are you a gas free house? I am looking at solar + battery + heat pump for our less than perfectly insulated 1930s detached house with gas CH, and am starting to think I will not spend the money on the batteries and heat pump, but simply put my solar panel output (I can fit about 5.5 kW on our roof) into my hot water tank. Two full tanks a day will take approximately 24 kWh to heat up (kWh = (4.2 x Litres x Temp uplift °C)/3600), so four or five hours full sun will give us free hot water for six or more months of the year and means I can switch the gas boiler off all that time. This seems to me to be a good way to start my eco journey without spending on hardware which I suspect will tumble in price over the next few years. Or am I missing something? You have clearly investigated this subject in a lot of depth, so I'd value your thoughts.
Hi Colin thanks for watching and great question.
Yes we have a gas boiler, it's a very old, 20year plus. This heating season, end of 2021 to now, we've adopted a slightly different approach to central heating, I'll come back to that.
From Jan 2021 to end of May 2021 we used gas for central heating and hot water. From late May to the middle of September we turned the gas boiler off and used PV excess to heat our hot water from the myenegi eddi device. From middle Sept to now, we turned our gas boiler back on and put it on its lowest setting. We only use it for central heating, not to heat the hot water. The hot water is boosted for 90mins every morning on cheap rate Octopus Go Faster tariff. Also boosted by any surplus solar that occurs during the day.
The key thing we've done over last summer is to reduce draughts and improve the insulation. Without doing this we would not be able to run the boiler at its lowest setting and maintain 21ºC in the house, even when the temperature is -2ºC outside. Before making those improvements we needed the boiler at 2/3rd power to achieve the same result. Fabric first then always, otherwise you are trying to heat a tent in blizzard. Spend money there and home generation of electricity. Get the biggest solar array you can. I've done a couple of videos on solar and home storage battery. There's also one on improving our home's insulation and the before and after.
Hi John
Thank you for such a speedy reply. I started investigating all this in autumn 2021 as our gas boiler is about eighteen years old and I want to change it out before it fails and forces me to go for a quick fix.
Some observations:
1. All the people selling air source heat pumps advised strongly against a hybrid system (eg ASHP plus gas boiler for when it's seriously cold). Further research makes me suspicious that this advice is biased, and that a hybrid system for a less than perfectly insulated house is possibly the way to go.
2. The market is skewed at present by the RHI (Renewable Heat Incentive) scheme, which ends in March 2022, and so this cut off is causing an excess of demand over supply in the short term.
3. Totally agree about reducing drafts and improving insulation levels. First thing on the list, but not always straightforward in a 1930s detached.
Questions:
1. Are you using electricity to heat your hot water because it's cheaper, or because you're nursing the gas boiler?
2. When your gas boiler does go phutt, what will replace it?
Many European homes which have much colder winters than ours go the hybrid route. It makes sense, but suspect it's a tougher install which is why some try and steer away from it. Have a look at the Heat Geek channel on here, Nathan knows his stuff.
I think we are still in a transition and the heating industry is like an oil tanker which takes years to turn and very very slowly. Heck many heating engineers don't know how to properly set up a gas boiler with reduced flow rates to make sure they condense properly or how to set up weather compensation.
To answer your two questions. 1. not purposely nursing the boiler, it gets serviced yearly and because it is really basic there's very little to go wrong. The downside with it it's not very efficient compared to a modern condensing gas boiler. My approach was to lower its operating temperature so it didn't have to work so hard and to use less gas.
The answer to question 2 is a lot more tricky to answer in the comments here. You may want to watch my video 'Our old gas boiler has broken what to replace it with?' ruclips.net/video/PVlJIoZBXo4/видео.html which was from March 2021 when it was broken! My stance has not changed. A heat pump has too many constraints for our house at present, plus the price is still 50% too high. Volume and time will bring those prices down to around the same price as a gas boiler installation. I'd like to go electric and ditch gas, but there are just too many unknowns and factors outside my control; price of electric verse price of gas for example which don't make it viable at present. With time those will change. I'm playing the waiting game, but getting the house in a fit state to make it more efficient and reduce the amount required to heat it. Whatever that heat source looks like in the future.
Is not charging your cars also a saving that should be factored into the equation as you now purchase one less fuel?
It can be for sure, you make a valid point. Most charging of the cars is done with excess solar, rarely boost direct from the Powerwall. We certainly save loads on petrol costs now we have 2 EVs. We used to do 100 mile a day commute in the petrol car which then was done in the EV. A massive saving in fuel.
Thanks John very informative 👍
Cool, thanks for watching Paul, glad it was useful to you.
Great video explaining your experience and home configuration (the diagram at the start was great) with solar and the power wall 👍🏻 I’m hoping Tesla introduce the solar roof tiles to the UK market soon before making the leap!
Thank you for watching. Tesla are still working out the sales process and pricing structure for the solar roof in the US. Not sure it will be over here anytime soon.
@@johntisbury Did you consider any other brand of battery backup system before getting the Tesla Power Wall?
Will be interesting to see the cost benefit over the next year with energy prices going to crazy levels in a couple of days.
At the time back in mid 2018 there weren't that many choices for home storage batteries. Sonnen was about the only one that was close but didn't have the same specs as the Powerwall. The home storage battery was pretty thin on products back then.
Can one use lithium iron phosphate batteries instead of Tesla power wall?
Yes you can, Tesla use the chemistry in the standard range M3 now. . www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/a-closer-look-at-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-teslas-new-choice-of-battery/
How much carbon is produced in the manufacture and disposal of Tesla batteries?
There's been plenty of science based studies showing that the total end to end life cycle of a battery electric vehicle verse a conventional combustion engine counterpart is significantly better in carbon emissions. Here's a link to a recent study updated in Feb 2020 taking into account electricity carbon intensity and battery manufacture. www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change
Does this cost include the solar panels as well and insulation of the full set up. I worked out it would take me about 25 years to break even and buy that point the solar panels may need replacing and probably the way ev cars have gone needed 2 new ppowerwall's don't know if anyone has any data on the likely efficiency and life of these power walls. Great video though I do really want a set up like this but our electricity is £40 a month so maths don't add up for me.
Thank for watching Richard. Powerwall guarantee 70% SOC after 10 years.
In the description under the video and in the pinned comment I explain why I didn’t include the PV costs. Basically they were already paid for when the battery was installed, so no need to offset those costs.
Can I ask given the current problems with wholesale prices where this has left you , or is there some protection in your agreement ?
Good question. We are locked in with our current tariff which comes to an end at the beginning of August this year. Then we will be hit by the increased in standing charge and unit rate for gas and electric. Thankfully, most of that won't have much impact until the late Autumn when the solar production dies off and we pull more from the grid.
Hi John,
Please I want to take you back to the solar panel issue, I have a solar panel and I will like to sell my gride please do you know any company that is good at buying energy export gride? Secondly, my current suppliers are octopus just like you said, which tariff do you think is the best for me to go into, I guess is the Agile tariff right.
Hi Fred
Thanks for watching. I don't have a SEG (Smart Export Guarantee) which means I have no knowledge of who is best in the marketplace at present. It's a moving feast so you will have to shop around the suppliers to see who has the best price for their SEG rates. Google is your friend here.
In terms of which tariff is best, there's no quick easy answer as it really depends. It's like me asking you which car should I buy? or which television is best. Have a think about the following criteria; what is your daily average house usage? Can you shift your usage away from peak times 4pm - 7pm. How much solar do you export? Do you have battery capacity? If so, how much storage do you have? Do you have an EV? Do you plan to make and significant changes in the next 6 - 12 months that will impact your electricity demand, up or down? e.g a heat pump. Agile is a high risk / high reward tariff, you really need to know what you are doing to get the best from this tariff. I was on it for 12 months in 2021 and swapped to Go after daytime prices stayed at 35p/kWh for most of the day. It's a good tariff if you are a low user, can shift your energy usage away from 4-7 and have battery storage. Otherwise it can be a bit of a gamble.
I guess you have a smart meter as you are looking for SEG. If you have an EV then Go and Intelligent are worth looking at. If you don't have an EV then there's not too many alternatives.
Hi John, great video! Would you mind sharing how the benefits of the power wall + solar have changed with the current energy prices?
Thank you for watching, as you point out the energy prices are rather out of date in that video as it's quite old now. I've done an update video which covers my total spending and savings, this was before the massive price hike, but it does give a better rounded picture of total costs and savings. ruclips.net/video/ahgujS15zes/видео.html
@@johntisbury Thank you very much John, just watched that too. Very informative. Subscribed!
Super, thanks for the sub.
HI John, great video as always. Only 1st year of ownership of power wall & gateway 2 44% self powered as house usage 23 kwh with 3-51 kwp solar panels. We have had 8 events in back up history lasting a total of 1.5 hrs in our 1st year and never noticed power outage when neighbours have lost there supply, might have more events than you due to house being overhead supply? When we finally get a Octopus smart meter (been waiting & chasing since March) will have to watch this again to set up power wall, as we only get smart export payment and export very little might need help with correct tariff choice. Stay safe. Richard
Thanks Richard for watching. Doesn't time fly, 1 year in for you. 44% self-powered is great. Overhead wires will certainly make you more susceptible to outages, great to know how many events you have had. The Gateway 2 is a no brainer for you.
The smart meter will open up lots of tariff possibilities for you. When you get it installed happy to suggest as the playing field may be different by then.
Excellent breakdown of the many overall bigger pictures relating to solar and the Tesla Powerwall 2.
Thank you Alexander for watching.
@@johntisbury I am contemplation the installation of a solar array with Powerwall 2, so your video is very timely.
Not seeing the link to the schematic diagram. I would appreciate the link please.
Here you go:
www.dropbox.com/s/aqypp8y1tu196ug/scematic%20of%20solar%20and%20powerwall%20installation.jpg?dl=0
@@johntisbury Thanks. That and the "setup" info are a good starting place for my research into the subject. Thanks for sharing.
I thought the maximum amount of power you could produce in the via solar is 3.68kwh? How did you get an installer to put in a 6.2kwh system?
The 3.68kW limit is pre-approved, anything larger needs approval from the DNO before installation can done. I did a more detailed video on this very topic here: ruclips.net/video/nei3eku_X5Q/видео.html 19:04mm:ss if you want to jump to that part, it's chaptered for easy navigation.
@@johntisbury thanks. I had a 4.5kwh system installed in 2017, so that on full days, there’s more panel space to catch the solar to get up to the 3.68 limit but was told that was the max and am miffed I could have applied for more. I wondered if the extra panels you added were solely for the power wall and that was how you got round it but obvs that wasn’t the case. Thanks for taking the time to reply. 👍
@@richardmack1194 sounds like a lazy installer as there's less paperwork and time involved with the 3.68 limit. Although in fairness they could know the area and know that the DNO would not approve any larger installations due to cabling limitations, other houses with solar etc. Difficult to say. Often large arrays might need to upgrade to 3-phase if they are on single phase. It's down to the DNO to decide. You can still upgrade your inverter but you would need DNO approval.
@@johntisbury I live in rural north Devon, so know the cabling is an issue to be fair.
Hi John, I live in a rural property and really struggling to understand what’s required to implement solar / battery in my home. Would you be able to give me a hand with any of this at all? Seem to know your stuff!
I can do my best. The best place to start is having a look at this video I did which covers this very topic from the very start. You can do as much or as little as you want in terms of the preparation and finding out. however what is critical is to find out your typical electricity usage over the past 12 months. What the video, it explains it all. Any questions, drop me a line.
So you want solar and a home storage battery: ruclips.net/video/nei3eku_X5Q/видео.html
@@johntisbury Very much appreciated John! Will take a look at the videos and review the usage, may be in touch soon. I have an EV too and a calor LPG tank. So going fully electric makes sense
Lots of arithmetic, John, and others have already pointed out the division by 48 instead of 24. The question I have is, "How rigorous was the calculation of the average cost per unit?" That is also rather difficult in reality.
That's a fair question Nic. It was very difficult to determine over the two years with all the changes that took place.
I based my final figure on 10 months on an expensive E.ON tariff which I'm ashamed to admit was 18p/kWh when I looked back through the bills. Those heady days of ignorance.
Then I had 9 months on Octopus Go with split rates and 5 months on Agile vario-rates. These were much more tricky to land upon.
So not robust in a sense of being able to show my workings. But there or thereabouts.