We're just simply not accustomed to this kind of thinking. I was HIGHLY resistant to ir because so many NT passages get explained to us theoughout childhood, in an individual way. Trying to really put on yoirvcorporate lenses is... just hard. But once I could see it i can't unsee it and its OBVIOUSLY what Paul is talking about.
I would invite you to meditate upon this from Paul "And the life I now live in the flesh I love by faith in the Son of God, WHO LOVED ME AND GAVE HIMSELF FOR ME" That is an understanding of particular redemption. Don't be deceived by the Anti-Calvinists
@de629 so God ONLY loved Paul and gave himself up for just Paul? Paul can say that because He knows God loved everyone so much that He gave Himself up as a randsom for them so that they might become children of God. Jesus paid for the sins of the world. Not ours (believers) only, but the sins of the whole world.
@@de629 is Paul a human? Was Paul in "The World"? At the time he wrote that, was Paul "in Christ"? Then there's no conflict in the passage. It doesn't make your case.
It definitely does help. There still needs to be some fleshing out, in order to get language we can use to say it clearly and distinctly when the topic comes up.
I always enjoy your feedback. Are you on Twitter? I try to put my videos out to a group of guys on there to get their thoughts before I post something. If you are on Twitter I would love to add you to that group.
Brother thanks for breaking it down into "digestable" pieces. There are plent of videos that deep dive into the tooic. But this one is definitely sharable!
It's fairly simple in my opinion, God has elected a certain group to service, it's up to the individual to decide if he wants to be part of the group or not, but there can't be corporate election if God is irresistibly gracing people as the means of "election"... so, Calvinists will have to suspend belief in Irresistible grace in order to be able to consider corporate election...
@@Bibliotechno No, you think about it.. and think about this.. *"Romans 10:13-17 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."* Lydia's heart was opened by God through the means of Paul preaching the Word... think for yourself and get your head out of Calvinist garbage.
You did a good job describing the two views in terms of one view says there’s the opportunity for all to believe. And the other view (Calvinist) only those God elected. But that doesn’t answer the question of interpreting Romans 9. This is a question of hermeneutics and exegesis of what is put forth in the passage; and what the intent of the author is. It’s not Individual election. It’s about God choosing Israel and then Gentiles - and that the Jews should not boast or question God. It’s about service not salvation for Individuals for all time. “The elder shall serve the younger”. It’s not about heaven and hell. The way I respond to the ridiculous claim by Calvinists who respond by saying nations are made up of individuals- is with that line of thinking NOTHING could ever be said to be corporate since the entire world is made up of individuals. It’s a silly rebuttal.
This is a playlist from Dr. Williams you might enjoy. ruclips.net/p/PLGkNjgD16fYZvTztK2B4E2g0iRZXYbRA- if this link does not work look for my video Williams verses Piper. Thank you for your comment!
That the Lord opened her heart is not in question. What is in question is your ASSUMPTION that her having already feared God and respected his word of her own free will COULDN'T POSSIBLY be a factor. Luke 8:18 KJV Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. Think about it.
The corporate election model as presented makes no sense. You’re saying God chooses to give us the benefits of being in Christ that we already have because we are in Christ. In John 6, Jesus promises that anyone who believes in Him will be raised up at the Last Day. This is the end goal of being in Christ and it’s already promised to anyone who believes. But you are saying once we believe, God then chooses us to receive what has already been promised that we would receive. Pardon the analogy, but it’s like this: a husband and wife get married, and after the ceremony, the husband says, “I choose you to be my bride.” She already is his bride. It makes no sense now to tell her that, now they are married, he chooses her be his bride. It’s like that with being the bride of Christ. Now that we are the bride of Christ, it doesn’t make sense for God to tell us that He chooses to make us the bride of Christ. It additionally doesn’t make sense because of this: When did the choosing happen? Before the foundation of the world. Whether you want to argue corporate or individual election, you must deal with timing of the choice: before the foundation of the world. You also must consider that Paul was writing to people he knew. The could read his letter and think, “I was chosen before the foundation of the world to receive these blessings.” The receipt of the blessings is after faith in Christ, obviously, but God knew exactly who would receive those blessings upon faith. He chose those people-us in Him-before the foundation of the world. If we force Ephesians 1 to mean what you say, we introduce a contradiction with 2 Thessalonians 2, wherein Paul plainly tells the believers at Thessalonica that “God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” What were they chosen for? Salvation. When we’re they chosen? From the beginning. This plan reading of 2 Thessalonians 2 fits nicely with a plain reading of Ephesians 1. No contradiction. But to get to what you present here, we have to contort plainly written words in a way that doesn’t present itself in just a normal, plain reading.
@@gracemercywrath8767 Thank you for the reply. I'm sure your time is limited, and I appreciate the response. I've watched both that video and Leighton's other video called "Ephesians 1 De-Calvinized." In the De-Calvinized video, he takes the same or similar approach you do here, which I find defies a plain reading. He does a word-swap in that video, taking "to be holy and blameless" and turns it into "to _become_ holy and blameless." That's problematic on its own. But his airplane analogy totally fails in that video. It makes no sense for us to be chosen to be on an airplane we've already been seated on. For God to say, "Now that you're here, I choose you to be here," makes the choosing completely moot. In the very recent video you linked, however, we get closer to the root of Leighton's belief. He told us about a chest of drawers passed down to the oldest daughter, which has finally come to his wife. When her ancestor determined that the chest should go to each oldest daughter, he had no idea that Leighton's wife would some day possess it. Leighton and his guest in the video both agreed this illustration perfectly fit their position. And that's the problem. Before the foundation of the world, God knew exactly who would be in Christ. We can't make Him ignorant of this. Sure, we didn't exist yet, but He already knows all things. Psalm 147:5 _Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite._ Romans 11:33 _Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!_ 1 John 3:20 _For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things._ I don't expect to change your mind in all of this. I'm simply telling you why I think your position doesn't make sense, and contorts the plain meaning of the text. Is there a reason you don't want God to choose you--you personally, as an individual--before the foundation of the world? The plain reading of Ephesians says that He has. Why would you need to impose a strange interpretation to make it so God had no clue you would exist one day, and also one day be a believer in Him?
@@TheMaineSurveyor Thank you for your response. I would also recommend Great Light Studio and his “in Christ” series. The interesting thing is when I was a Calvinist I would of said everything your saying here. Once I saw the argument from the other side I believe it is the clearer reading of the text. I have a video going verse by verse through John 6 with Dr. Williams I would also recommend. I'll believe what you said about Dr. Flowers miss speaking but I disagree that it changes his argument. My question is does in bother you that Dr. Piper adds “us to be in Christ” when it says “us in Christ”?
@@gracemercywrath8767 Thanks. I've become acquainted with his work. I have a couple of lengthy comments and one brief comment under his video entitled "A Critical Error in Calvinism - Have the Elect ALWAYS Been In Christ? - Part 1." Suffice to say, if we go with the reading you, Leighton, and Jordan prefer--which I believe is not plain in the words themselves--we immediately contradict 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which speaks to the same subject: being chosen by God. If our understanding of a passage creates a contradiction with another plainly-written passage, our understanding must be incorrect. But if we stick with the plain meaning of Ephesians 1:4, we are in agreement with the plain meaning of 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. If we force the words to say something other than what they plainly say, and if we place an assumption on the text that God has no idea who will be in Christ in the future, then we can get to the meaning you propose here. I can't do that. Scripture plainly testifies that God knows all things, without exception. This is blunt, for sure, but I can't think of another way to say it and maintain clarity. I certainly don't intend any disrespect towards you by these words. I believe you are sincere. I simply disagree with the position you've taken, just as I believe you sincerely disagree with me. That being said, I hope this comment finds you well. May the Lord richly bless you in all that you do in His name.
We're just simply not accustomed to this kind of thinking. I was HIGHLY resistant to ir because so many NT passages get explained to us theoughout childhood, in an individual way. Trying to really put on yoirvcorporate lenses is... just hard.
But once I could see it i can't unsee it and its OBVIOUSLY what Paul is talking about.
I would invite you to meditate upon this from Paul "And the life I now live in the flesh I love by faith in the Son of God, WHO LOVED ME AND GAVE HIMSELF FOR ME"
That is an understanding of particular redemption.
Don't be deceived by the Anti-Calvinists
@de629 so God ONLY loved Paul and gave himself up for just Paul?
Paul can say that because He knows God loved everyone so much that He gave Himself up as a randsom for them so that they might become children of God.
Jesus paid for the sins of the world. Not ours (believers) only, but the sins of the whole world.
@@de629 is Paul a human?
Was Paul in "The World"?
At the time he wrote that, was Paul "in Christ"?
Then there's no conflict in the passage.
It doesn't make your case.
It definitely does help.
There still needs to be some fleshing out, in order to get language we can use to say it clearly and distinctly when the topic comes up.
I always enjoy your feedback. Are you on Twitter? I try to put my videos out to a group of guys on there to get their thoughts before I post something. If you are on Twitter I would love to add you to that group.
@@gracemercywrath8767
I am. 🙂
Feel free, I'll be glad to help out if I can. I'm at @_BJAllen.
Brother thanks for breaking it down into "digestable" pieces.
There are plent of videos that deep dive into the tooic. But this one is definitely sharable!
I just found your channel. I'm looking forward to seeing your content!
Thank you for the video. Commenting for the Algorithm.
It's fairly simple in my opinion, God has elected a certain group to service, it's up to the individual to decide if he wants to be part of the group or not, but there can't be corporate election if God is irresistibly gracing people as the means of "election"... so, Calvinists will have to suspend belief in Irresistible grace in order to be able to consider corporate election...
Are you on Twitter?
You have been deceived about Election, it could be to Service or a Nation, but words are defined in therr context. People are Elected..
Everyone who is saved, is saved to serve. In fact faith without works is dead.
The Bible says about Lydia. "The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message". So, 'Who opened her heart???'. Think about it
@@Bibliotechno No, you think about it.. and think about this..
*"Romans 10:13-17
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."*
Lydia's heart was opened by God through the means of Paul preaching the Word... think for yourself and get your head out of Calvinist garbage.
You did a good job describing the two views in terms of one view says there’s the opportunity for all to believe. And the other view (Calvinist) only those God elected. But that doesn’t answer the question of interpreting Romans 9.
This is a question of hermeneutics and exegesis of what is put forth in the passage; and what the intent of the author is. It’s not Individual election. It’s about God choosing Israel and then Gentiles - and that the Jews should not boast or question God. It’s about service not salvation for Individuals for all time.
“The elder shall serve the younger”. It’s not about heaven and hell.
The way I respond to the ridiculous claim by Calvinists who respond by saying nations are made up of individuals- is with that line of thinking NOTHING could ever be said to be corporate since the entire world is made up of individuals. It’s a silly rebuttal.
This is a playlist from Dr. Williams you might enjoy. ruclips.net/p/PLGkNjgD16fYZvTztK2B4E2g0iRZXYbRA- if this link does not work look for my video Williams verses Piper. Thank you for your comment!
The group is elected by dint of being in the Elect One Jesus.
When did God choose us?
The Bible says about Lydia. "The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message". So, 'Who opened her heart???'. Think about it
That the Lord opened her heart is not in question.
What is in question is your ASSUMPTION that her having already feared God and respected his word of her own free will COULDN'T POSSIBLY be a factor.
Luke 8:18 KJV
Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Think about it.
The corporate election model as presented makes no sense. You’re saying God chooses to give us the benefits of being in Christ that we already have because we are in Christ.
In John 6, Jesus promises that anyone who believes in Him will be raised up at the Last Day. This is the end goal of being in Christ and it’s already promised to anyone who believes. But you are saying once we believe, God then chooses us to receive what has already been promised that we would receive.
Pardon the analogy, but it’s like this: a husband and wife get married, and after the ceremony, the husband says, “I choose you to be my bride.” She already is his bride. It makes no sense now to tell her that, now they are married, he chooses her be his bride.
It’s like that with being the bride of Christ. Now that we are the bride of Christ, it doesn’t make sense for God to tell us that He chooses to make us the bride of Christ.
It additionally doesn’t make sense because of this: When did the choosing happen? Before the foundation of the world. Whether you want to argue corporate or individual election, you must deal with timing of the choice: before the foundation of the world.
You also must consider that Paul was writing to people he knew. The could read his letter and think, “I was chosen before the foundation of the world to receive these blessings.”
The receipt of the blessings is after faith in Christ, obviously, but God knew exactly who would receive those blessings upon faith. He chose those people-us in Him-before the foundation of the world.
If we force Ephesians 1 to mean what you say, we introduce a contradiction with 2 Thessalonians 2, wherein Paul plainly tells the believers at Thessalonica that “God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.”
What were they chosen for? Salvation. When we’re they chosen? From the beginning.
This plan reading of 2 Thessalonians 2 fits nicely with a plain reading of Ephesians 1. No contradiction.
But to get to what you present here, we have to contort plainly written words in a way that doesn’t present itself in just a normal, plain reading.
ruclips.net/video/GYNXeZiDd_c/видео.html
The Bible says about Lydia. "The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message". So, 'Who opened her heart???'. Think about it
@@gracemercywrath8767 Thank you for the reply. I'm sure your time is limited, and I appreciate the response.
I've watched both that video and Leighton's other video called "Ephesians 1 De-Calvinized."
In the De-Calvinized video, he takes the same or similar approach you do here, which I find defies a plain reading. He does a word-swap in that video, taking "to be holy and blameless" and turns it into "to _become_ holy and blameless." That's problematic on its own. But his airplane analogy totally fails in that video. It makes no sense for us to be chosen to be on an airplane we've already been seated on. For God to say, "Now that you're here, I choose you to be here," makes the choosing completely moot.
In the very recent video you linked, however, we get closer to the root of Leighton's belief. He told us about a chest of drawers passed down to the oldest daughter, which has finally come to his wife. When her ancestor determined that the chest should go to each oldest daughter, he had no idea that Leighton's wife would some day possess it. Leighton and his guest in the video both agreed this illustration perfectly fit their position. And that's the problem.
Before the foundation of the world, God knew exactly who would be in Christ. We can't make Him ignorant of this. Sure, we didn't exist yet, but He already knows all things.
Psalm 147:5
_Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite._
Romans 11:33
_Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!_
1 John 3:20
_For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things._
I don't expect to change your mind in all of this. I'm simply telling you why I think your position doesn't make sense, and contorts the plain meaning of the text.
Is there a reason you don't want God to choose you--you personally, as an individual--before the foundation of the world? The plain reading of Ephesians says that He has. Why would you need to impose a strange interpretation to make it so God had no clue you would exist one day, and also one day be a believer in Him?
@@TheMaineSurveyor Thank you for your response. I would also recommend Great Light Studio and his “in Christ” series. The interesting thing is when I was a Calvinist I would of said everything your saying here. Once I saw the argument from the other side I believe it is the clearer reading of the text. I have a video going verse by verse through John 6 with Dr. Williams I would also recommend. I'll believe what you said about Dr. Flowers miss speaking but I disagree that it changes his argument. My question is does in bother you that Dr. Piper adds “us to be in Christ” when it says “us in Christ”?
@@gracemercywrath8767 Thanks. I've become acquainted with his work. I have a couple of lengthy comments and one brief comment under his video entitled "A Critical Error in Calvinism - Have the Elect ALWAYS Been In Christ? - Part 1." Suffice to say, if we go with the reading you, Leighton, and Jordan prefer--which I believe is not plain in the words themselves--we immediately contradict 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which speaks to the same subject: being chosen by God.
If our understanding of a passage creates a contradiction with another plainly-written passage, our understanding must be incorrect. But if we stick with the plain meaning of Ephesians 1:4, we are in agreement with the plain meaning of 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. If we force the words to say something other than what they plainly say, and if we place an assumption on the text that God has no idea who will be in Christ in the future, then we can get to the meaning you propose here. I can't do that. Scripture plainly testifies that God knows all things, without exception.
This is blunt, for sure, but I can't think of another way to say it and maintain clarity. I certainly don't intend any disrespect towards you by these words. I believe you are sincere. I simply disagree with the position you've taken, just as I believe you sincerely disagree with me.
That being said, I hope this comment finds you well. May the Lord richly bless you in all that you do in His name.
I agree with the video, but the graphics and spelling are poor. Redo the graphics.