Hey all, happy new year, hope everyone had festive fun! I've really been enjoying the Neural DSP AC-20, still not sure how it stacks up with the odd gain situation, but since I filmed this I've discovered some more info on setting the input gain stage of the interface more 'correctly' for plugins. It's gonna take some more digging and experimenting as the NDSP AC-20 now has nowhere near enough gain as compared to the amp/fm3. Kinda banging my head up the wall on this one, I do love the tone the plugin gets, but it seems all a bit odd and inconsistent at the moment! If anyone has more info, please explain below! Beebs
I’ve only recently discovered how useful/flexible the input level and output level are on the plugin itself, especially for getting proper clean tones and higher gain sounds. Took me forever to realise it as I never really messed with the plugin’s in/out level controls on any of my other NDSP plugins before getting the Morgan Suite
All VST plug-ins are optimized for certain input gain levels; it's one of the crucial benefits of adjusting your input peaks before mixing a song. I can't remember the industry standard. I thought it was around -14 dB, but John Cordy asserts it's between 12.2 and 13 dB after some recent research, so he's probably more correct. Your input level is definitely too high in this video. I don't own an AC20, but from videos I've seen, the plug-in seems to break up right around where I would expect it to in real life. One thing I also notice is that you leave the compressor on, and I've found the NDSP compressor adds a significant amount of extra level even when the level is set at noon so, since it's in the pre section, that could be what's driving you amp more than you're expecting. TL;DR: Set your input around -12 to -13 dB and kill the compressor (at least initially) and I'd wager you'll be closer to what you're expecting.
Hi trevor, yea Cordy's recent research was me! I found Ed's video whilst away for a few days after shooting this video but before I could upload it. My input in this video was showing consistently between -16 and -9 on my interface. I'm still testing now I'm back, but using this new gain staging method the plugin is still way off where the real amp and the fractal break up.
@@DavidBeebeewhat will be the onput settings on the FM3/FX3, there is +4 -6 db or something like that innthe global settings. Comingnfromnthe NDSP FM3 video uploaded after this. How tonset the FM3/FX3. Thanks for these video...this will be very helpful.
Wanted to put this out there as far as the input and gain staging question: I notice your DI are massive… unless you have your interface input knob set at 0 with the high impedance switch on, you’re overloading the input of the amplifier. Beyond that, every interface has a different minimum output level and the level that NDSP uses to design their products is -12 dBFS, which is the minimum output level of UAD and Scarlett interfaces (at the above settings). This is a bit of a rabbit hole but a lot of guys made videos about this recently and I found it really changed the quality of sounds that I got from my plugins by following this advice
Johnny told us Beebs would be dropping this video. John's video today dealt with the input of the Plug in's, how to get it cleaner sounding, and what they most actually should be. Great video and Playing.
Hi thanks for the video. Hope this tip helps, set your guitar interface to 0 gain then make any adjustment with the plugin to get about -12db. in your DAW. Works for me👍
This is by far the best display of any VST I've ever heard. Usually if I close my eyes I can tell which is which, with the tube amp usually sounding the best. This is not the case here 😮
Cheers Nick, it really grew on me with the ac20, there’s something extra special about the ef86 vibe too. The matchless dc30 ef86 is also one to look out for.
neural dsp USED to recommend setting your audio interfaces gain setting to right before it begins clipping, turns out this is wrong and as far as i know they do not recommend this anymore. all you’re doing is slamming your di signal with way more gain. the actual best option to do is set your audio interface to the instrument setting and leaving it at 0. any input gain you add should only be from the input section in the plugin itself. John Nathan Cordy has a pretty good video on this subject. Hope this was any sort of help!
great video and playing I have seen a few videos recently that suggest dialing back the input level on the plugin to a much lower level than most are used to. Or doing it on your sound card. Chers, Perry aka Techboy57 PS I just watched till the end and saw you trimmed the input level to -12
Thanks for watching. Yea I’ve been experimenting and researching this since filming and I’ve gotten it a lot closer. Plugins are a nightmare though and now realising why.
@@DavidBeebee I was suspecting that. I'm using this app :) I talked to Tom Quayle last October in Łódź, Poland, when he had BOSS GX100 presentation. I'm eager to know, what's around the corner :)
superb video! i definitely would like your opinion about the friedman be behind, how you use it in wiche situation.. thanks! still digging your music theory course
Thanks for the great video man! I really like the neural plugin and I wanted it to win but the real amp kills it every time. It’s tridimensional, sits in the mix nicely with a natural air/high end. Could get the amp sims closer to the real amp with some eq I guess but that 3D thing is hard to get in the digital world I reckon unless spending a lot of time messing with IRs…
8:45 ... everybody uses as much input gain as possible to capture guitar pickups without clipping A/D , but than plugin doesn't known if we are using low output single coil pickup or high output HB... we need to set plugin input down so plugin can interpret that as a low output pickup
The confusing thing is that many plug-in manufactures explicitly say in their official videos and documentation to set input gain as high as possible without clipping, or to target-14 to -9 on your interface. As I’m now discovering with most guitars single or humbucker this is way too much juice hitting the amp. Plugin land seems to be a bit of a Wild West. You can certainly get awesome sounds but it’s not consistent and values and settings arbitrary.
I don’t know where you live and you weren’t asking me. But there in ikea and a lot of other stores. Look for gaming chairs and definitely chairs that have removable arms. Mine has a long back, head rest and I just didn’t put the arms on. But I got it in a random now gone store in our city. I’d get a gaming chair if I had to do it again.
@@Utube-g3g hey thanks man appreciate the response… good point - I’ve removed the arms from many a chair… but will keep a look out for a head rest one!
sorry looks like they don't make this one anymore, it was called Jarvfjallet. I can still find a chair by that name on the Ikea website but it now has arm rests, fake leather covering and twice the price!
I saw John's video before your take so was a bit shocked that the plugin had way more gain thinking you'd already have sorted it out - should have watched John's to the end before jumping into here but as a new FM9 owner was very pleased to see the settings lined up the same with your FM3 and running through the same IR's could not tell the difference at all between your amp and the FM3.
Yea Cordy always beats me to the punch with getting any possible video out, he's like lightning!. I only figured out this input staging stuff after I'd shot and edited. I'd been away on a break for a couple of days with wife, casually browsing RUclips by the pool, found that vid from Ed about gain staging plugins and was like "f**k I've already done this vid!" Congrats on the FM9, you should feel confident you've made a good choice! Every comparison I've done with fractal to real amps has lined up remarkably close so far. Have fun!
![Ice On My Teeth - ATEEZ エイティーズ 에이티즈 [Music Bank] | KBS WORLD TV 241115](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c-n92OgbbwA/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey all, happy new year, hope everyone had festive fun! I've really been enjoying the Neural DSP AC-20, still not sure how it stacks up with the odd gain situation, but since I filmed this I've discovered some more info on setting the input gain stage of the interface more 'correctly' for plugins. It's gonna take some more digging and experimenting as the NDSP AC-20 now has nowhere near enough gain as compared to the amp/fm3. Kinda banging my head up the wall on this one, I do love the tone the plugin gets, but it seems all a bit odd and inconsistent at the moment! If anyone has more info, please explain below! Beebs
I’ve only recently discovered how useful/flexible the input level and output level are on the plugin itself, especially for getting proper clean tones and higher gain sounds. Took me forever to realise it as I never really messed with the plugin’s in/out level controls on any of my other NDSP plugins before getting the Morgan Suite
All VST plug-ins are optimized for certain input gain levels; it's one of the crucial benefits of adjusting your input peaks before mixing a song.
I can't remember the industry standard. I thought it was around -14 dB, but John Cordy asserts it's between 12.2 and 13 dB after some recent research, so he's probably more correct.
Your input level is definitely too high in this video.
I don't own an AC20, but from videos I've seen, the plug-in seems to break up right around where I would expect it to in real life.
One thing I also notice is that you leave the compressor on, and I've found the NDSP compressor adds a significant amount of extra level even when the level is set at noon so, since it's in the pre section, that could be what's driving you amp more than you're expecting.
TL;DR: Set your input around -12 to -13 dB and kill the compressor (at least initially) and I'd wager you'll be closer to what you're expecting.
Hi trevor, yea Cordy's recent research was me! I found Ed's video whilst away for a few days after shooting this video but before I could upload it.
My input in this video was showing consistently between -16 and -9 on my interface.
I'm still testing now I'm back, but using this new gain staging method the plugin is still way off where the real amp and the fractal break up.
@@DavidBeebeewhat will be the onput settings on the FM3/FX3, there is +4 -6 db or something like that innthe global settings. Comingnfromnthe NDSP FM3 video uploaded after this. How tonset the FM3/FX3.
Thanks for these video...this will be very helpful.
Morgan = My new go-to amp sim for everything, including 2024 RUclips videos! Fantastic!
It's an amazing amp, in real life and virtually!
@@DavidBeebee my massive pedalboard is collecting dust😋
likewise, I actually ended up dismantling my big board!
@@DavidBeebee These amp sims have to include DESKTOP versions, so it's easy. No DAW required means all-day anytime quick access!
One thing i like about neural product is you just plug in and play. It is just there. No tweaking.
I really like the general workflow for the cabs, in that you don't have to spend hours auditioning IRs.
Wanted to put this out there as far as the input and gain staging question: I notice your DI are massive… unless you have your interface input knob set at 0 with the high impedance switch on, you’re overloading the input of the amplifier. Beyond that, every interface has a different minimum output level and the level that NDSP uses to design their products is -12 dBFS, which is the minimum output level of UAD and Scarlett interfaces (at the above settings). This is a bit of a rabbit hole but a lot of guys made videos about this recently and I found it really changed the quality of sounds that I got from my plugins by following this advice
Johnny told us Beebs would be dropping this video. John's video today dealt with the input of the Plug in's, how to get it cleaner sounding, and what they most actually should be. Great video and Playing.
Thanks for the kind words! Yea Cordy beat me to it!
Hi thanks for the video. Hope this tip helps, set your guitar interface to 0 gain then make any adjustment with the plugin to get about -12db. in your DAW. Works for me👍
This is by far the best display of any VST I've ever heard. Usually if I close my eyes I can tell which is which, with the tube amp usually sounding the best. This is not the case here 😮
Glad you like the tones 👍🏻
It does sound really good. I'm the same, wasn't a fan on the Voxy break up type tone but lately starting to embrace it.
Cheers Nick, it really grew on me with the ac20, there’s something extra special about the ef86 vibe too. The matchless dc30 ef86 is also one to look out for.
Superb comparison & excellent playing. Thanks you so much.
Thanks, glad it was useful 👍🏻😃
Lovely playing Beebs, as always!
thanks dude!
Neural sounds the best by far. the FM3 is not bad.
My FM9 is a beast, as is the learning curve, but it's so worth it
100% agree. Fractal is top of the tree for me, but I do enjoy exploring the other options! :)
DAVID BEEBEE Ladies and Gentlemen….❤❤🤘🏼🤘🏼
haha hey hey *tips the 🎩*
neural dsp USED to recommend setting your audio interfaces gain setting to right before it begins clipping, turns out this is wrong and as far as i know they do not recommend this anymore. all you’re doing is slamming your di signal with way more gain. the actual best option to do is set your audio interface to the instrument setting and leaving it at 0. any input gain you add should only be from the input section in the plugin itself. John Nathan Cordy has a pretty good video on this subject. Hope this was any sort of help!
YEAHHH MANN - Waiting for the Day 🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻♥️
Haha good spot bro!
As soon as I heard the opening chord 😊
🤣🎸🐝
Superb comparison
many thanks 👍🏻
great video and playing I have seen a few videos recently that suggest dialing back the input level on the plugin to a much lower level than most are used to. Or doing it on your sound card. Chers, Perry aka Techboy57
PS I just watched till the end and saw you trimmed the input level to -12
Thanks for watching. Yea I’ve been experimenting and researching this since filming and I’ve gotten it a lot closer. Plugins are a nightmare though and now realising why.
Nice playing, Dude!
Thanks for listening! :)
Plugin sounds cool, but it’s insane how similar the Fractal and the amp sound lol
Hi David you are an excellent player and teacher. What string gauge are you using on your guitars? Cheers from denmark 🙏
Thanks for the kind words. I’m using elixir 10-46 nanowebs on all my solid body electrics 👍🏻
Good job making this video BUT 1:26 a prefer the attack and react of the real amp.
Thanks! Well, we all love real amps don't we! :)
Good to see you back DAVID! Great playing as always. Does the "SOLO" t-shirt mean something more, than just SOLO t-shirt? I guess :)
Cheers! Haha the Sølo t-shirt is related to the Solo App. A few big things just around the corner :)
@@DavidBeebee I was suspecting that. I'm using this app :) I talked to Tom Quayle last October in Łódź, Poland, when he had BOSS GX100 presentation. I'm eager to know, what's around the corner :)
@@DavidBeebeegood news😊
superb video! i definitely would like your opinion about the friedman be behind, how you use it in wiche situation.. thanks! still digging your music theory course
Thanks for the kind words! Yea, I think I'll do a comparison with the Friedman to the fractal next :)
Hello David from Spain. In the vídeo what hard case is with fm3 and fc6???
Hi there, it's a pedal train hard case. I'm trying to remember the size..I think its for the nova 24 model.
Thanks for the great video man! I really like the neural plugin and I wanted it to win but the real amp kills it every time. It’s tridimensional, sits in the mix nicely with a natural air/high end. Could get the amp sims closer to the real amp with some eq I guess but that 3D thing is hard to get in the digital world I reckon unless spending a lot of time messing with IRs…
8:45 ... everybody uses as much input gain as possible to capture guitar pickups without clipping A/D , but than plugin doesn't known if we are using low output single coil pickup or high output HB... we need to set plugin input down so plugin can interpret that as a low output pickup
The confusing thing is that many plug-in manufactures explicitly say in their official videos and documentation to set input gain as high as possible without clipping, or to target-14 to -9 on your interface. As I’m now discovering with most guitars single or humbucker this is way too much juice hitting the amp. Plugin land seems to be a bit of a Wild West. You can certainly get awesome sounds but it’s not consistent and values and settings arbitrary.
Great video… bit of a side note….but what chair is that, if I may? Been looking for a good armless chair with headrest…
I don’t know where you live and you weren’t asking me. But there in ikea and a lot of other stores. Look for gaming chairs and definitely chairs that have removable arms. Mine has a long back, head rest and I just didn’t put the arms on. But I got it in a random now gone store in our city. I’d get a gaming chair if I had to do it again.
@@Utube-g3g hey thanks man appreciate the response… good point - I’ve removed the arms from many a chair… but will keep a look out for a head rest one!
Thanks Jake, it's from Ikea! Umm I'll see if I can dig out the name of it and get back to you. I got it specifically for guitar playing!
@@DavidBeebeethanks David!
sorry looks like they don't make this one anymore, it was called Jarvfjallet. I can still find a chair by that name on the Ikea website but it now has arm rests, fake leather covering and twice the price!
I saw John's video before your take so was a bit shocked that the plugin had way more gain thinking you'd already have sorted it out - should have watched John's to the end before jumping into here but as a new FM9 owner was very pleased to see the settings lined up the same with your FM3 and running through the same IR's could not tell the difference at all between your amp and the FM3.
Yea Cordy always beats me to the punch with getting any possible video out, he's like lightning!. I only figured out this input staging stuff after I'd shot and edited. I'd been away on a break for a couple of days with wife, casually browsing RUclips by the pool, found that vid from Ed about gain staging plugins and was like "f**k I've already done this vid!"
Congrats on the FM9, you should feel confident you've made a good choice! Every comparison I've done with fractal to real amps has lined up remarkably close so far. Have fun!
They sounds the same to me 😅 I am more then happy with my fractal
me too!