The only thing that I could see ruining the 3+ AP shenanigans would be the fact that there are so many units with 5+4+ in vulnerable saves and I guess I just have crap luck but they always seem to make them always
Also, that unit will be shot by two of your units before the ap is maxed, so maybe not that much left to hurt? Against a titan or megablob of though ones it seems legit.
The units that shoot it can be a basalisk, a mortar from her squad, then the tank. Or the tank with fields of fire, then a mortar from her squad. It's not a big problem.
one may need to be a leman russ exterminator the other can be a dude with a lasgun so still quite some things to shoot it bur invulnerables are quite common@@karlnygren
Dont forget the Hellhound for Ignores Cover! Make those autocannons sing! I have been including Ursula Creed even with Lord Solar to get the free Fields of Fire, even when she can't give out orders due to range the free strat is pretty amazing. At this point I have a half-built list with no solar in it... Not sure it's better than my original list though since I can't give orders to the Tank Commanders.
It is indeed stackable. But on one hand you usually reach the invuls at additional 2 AP and on the other hand CP are too precious to spend them on Fields of Fire when you want Reinforcements too. I would leave it at Creeds Fields of Fire and the -1 from the Exterminator. Maybe add a Hellhound to ignore cover instead...that's almost as good as another -1 AP. To sum it up...yes, Creed is an auto-include as is the Lord for decent vehicle ordering.
Ally in an inquisitor. It’s power of the rosette stacks with creeds tactical genius to generate a cp on a +3. When you use a strat on the unit it’s leading.
Trouble is, you have to target that thing you want to stack ap -3, is you have to shoot it with a minimum of 3 units before you get the full effect. We know even boosted lasguns will only really get a handful of hits in, so we’re sweeping in 4-5 units to target out of our army. Even with guard, we might only have 10-14 units total, so we’re shooting with a third or more of our army to destroy a single target. Logistically, it would be better to do it twice, sans the Leman Russ, to reduce the amount of points we’re focusing into this tactic. Sure, if the enemy is hyper elite, it’ll do wonders, but it wont take much to butt up into their invulns. -2 ap on a lasgun, or -3 on heavy bolters, or -5 on lascannons will be more than plenty of AP to lay the hurt down. And thats assuming they dont begin deploying defensive countermeasures like smoke, etc. Its good, but its application will be niche. It is a big investment.
I'm pretty sure the rule for Vox Caster says if the unit contains a Vox Caster, you can gain a CP. Sadly, I think that means 1 dice per unit. It's still cool. I'm not sure about a unit being affected by the same strat ability twice. Fun if dickish!
My only query is around the CP generation part of this combo - isn’t there a rule somewhere which says a unit can only benefit from an ABILITY once, and subsequent uses of that ability don’t stack? The Vox caster is a wargear ability so doesn’t it only affect the unit once even though there are two models with that ability in the unit? However I must say I Love these tactics videos - always look forward to learning a bit more about little combos and tricks and seeing your ideas about how to potentially push them further. I salute you sir.
Well done, you fed the 'GW spy-mole' we don't want any of that Nerf bat they're about to swing about. I think it all stacks, only issue is getting the two CP, I do like to have the reinforcement strat ready.
It would be disastrous to the balance of the game to nerf the guard in any way shape or form. Guards at a 46% win rate on average. Id like a solid 50 but i don't mind it so long as it's around the 50 mark. The factions in need of a stiff hit with the nerf bat are the Orks and Aldari who are at like 56% and 57% win rates and are, in a competitive game automatically going to win out against most armies, especially guard who sits in the bottom 25% of the win loss ratio.
This tactic makes the basic mortar very good. Lots of shots, probably getting a good few lethal hits and now with some good AP… starts to make those cheap harassment mortars dangerous to elite infantry and maybe even has a bit more play into vehicles
I've run Creed with exterminators for a few competitive games now and lemme tell you that it's not all it's cracked up to be. It's great to get that force multiplier on your guns but to be totally effective you really need to plan it all out be an expert in your positioning, and even then you have to do the Sisyphus-ian task of having to snowball your abilities back up to lethality. Don't get me wrong, it's fun to do. I deleted a full squad of death wing terminators in a turn because of the exterminator and Creed but I could have been more efficient if my first tank shooting already had the high AP. Try it out, it might be up your alley, but I don't think that it's for everyone.
I think it's pretty rare you'd want the 3rd ap for 2cp. The unit benefiting will be the 4+th unit to fire, so the target is either on invulns, or already gone. (It would be pretty sketchy to use 2cp on a single mortar into the target) I think at +3ap you are looking at dumping "dodge this" lasgun fire into a bunch of custodes who just matrix 4++ through your main firepower.
The vast majority of targets that are so tough to take down that you might want to do this crazy tactic on will also have an invuln. At 2AP bonus, you're probably already bumping into that 4++ or 5++. I don't think this is really worth it. It's also kind of a headache to plan, position, and execute.
Me looking at my two catachan and 6 kreig 20 stacks w voxcasters in each one, creed n strakken leading with marshals and platoon squads on the rest of the infantry
Been using this combo ever since the index came out and it's quite potent, too bad you can't get additional cp if you have Solar now with the worlds patch Creed in an infantry squad with a mortar next to a mortar team sitting on your home objective is perfect for pointing to anything on the battlefield and saying "this dies this turn" I've found that the exterminator to be a bit excessive since you've already shot the unit with quite a bit of firepower and most tough to crack units will already have an invulnerable save
I didnt see any comments, but i use this strategy with ogryns becuase if they shoot the closest they get another bonus ap. Like you said to much ap is a waste but efectively you get a heavy bolter stat -4ap
How about doing the creed Ap staking with a Hades Drill and a 6 man team of Ogryn. You could deepstrike the Ogryn unit, then focus fire with ap staking, plus Ogryn will get the -1 ap when shooting closest target and just lay the shots in? Viable?
Imagine 200 lasguns firing with ap -2. Sounds horrifying. Just against my normal opponents alone it would murder them. Orks getting no save at all, berserkers saving on 5s. All against a hundred attacks per turn. Oof
A Space Marine Phobos Captain, in the Vanguard Detachment, can target two Infiltrator squads with the same stratagem for 0 CP. Infiltrators can take a radio thing to get the CP back too.
On the CP thing, I thought wargear abilities like vox caster and medibag only get one use per unit regardless of how many. So I could theoretically have 10 voxs in a unit, I only get 1 roll
They're a wargear thingy, not a unit ability. Unit doesn't just get the ability from having the vox in it - you get the ability *per guy with a vox*. You have two voxes in the unit, so whenever you spend a CP on the unit, both abilities activate, so you roll for both. Like how you can fire with each lasgun in the unit, no matter if you have nine of those or a single one. Do keep in mind that you can't generate more than one CP per turn, though, so if my understanding is correct you can't get a CP from both voxes and Leontus.
I don't think you get to roll two dice. The vox caster gives the unit an ability, not a rulebook one, but a special ability listed on the datasheet. Abilities don't stack to be used multiple times at once. So you roll one dice for gaining the CP.
@@ravajaxe I got the impress when he mentioned benefiting from units you're already taking, that he meant an attached platoon command squad. I think the attached command squad with the master vox is just as well affected as the unit it is with, right?
R.I.P to being able to use Creed for a free FoF, and gaining more than 2cp per turn. It was a good run while it lasted... At least they also nerfed our artillery & reinforcements as well!
IMO It takes too much setup to get the full -3ap but even -1 or -2 is more than enough, you just need to start forcing saves and every bit of AP makes a big difference.
The only but ur wrong one is the Vox-caster even if u have 2 in a unit u only get the ability to roll on the 4+ once per strat as abilities like that dont stack hemce the DKOK medi pack faq
I am new to 10th edition 40k, been out for quite some time, isn't there a rule saying you can only generate 1cp per turn? so even if you had multiple characters that generate you still are capped on how much you can actually get on a turn. as far as the -3ap. I think it would work like this, tank gives you the -1 for the next attack, the next unit has the -1 and gives a -1 on the next attack, the 3rd unit gets the -1 and gives another -1 (not sure if fof stacks) the 4th might actually get -2 (if they stack). if they do indeed stack, fof can make weak weapons far more potent. imagine that you use fof on indirect fire to attack anything on the board to apply the debuff. now the rest of your army can reap the reward. even cheapo little mortar teams could trigger the debuff in theory. I think you came up with an excellent tactic if it works. love your content, darktide got me back into warhammer. and actually made me want to consider playing guard. your channel has given me much inspiration to research and dig deep and really enjoy the game.
i wouldnt take GW's difference in wording to mean its allowed on one and not the other. By the same logic you can pack 6 Exalted Eightbound in a world eaters rhino, but regulat eightbound are a no-no
Tau Ethereals stand there, suck air, and generate 1 CP on a 4+ each and every one of your command phases. You can have three of them. Standing there in a strike team, with no ranged attacks. It's gross. Three Strike Teams and three Ethereals feel like the core of a Tau army. IDK why people spam crisis teams.
for some reason i thought you'd mention the one unit or upgrade that gives a CP aaaaand nevermind, you said it. free points cuz creed would make it a guarantee :)
I don’t see many TOs allowing a fields of fire stack. It just seems like an oversight by GW to me. But all of this is just like, my opinion mannnnn!! 😂
Possible problem: An infantry block with heavy weapons can only have 1 vox caster. When blast hits infantry they do not get blast +4. A heavy weapons squad counts as 1 Model. “For every 10 MODELS…” so Mordian has been cheating with his double grenade launcher and 2 Heavy weapons teams. Even if this was not the case. Don’t think you get to roll a die per vox caster.
The oficial app allows you to pick 2 vox casters even if you are going with the 14 infantry, 2 sergeants and 2 hwt. That being said, it could be unintentional, I don't know if it's FAQ'd or will be at some point
@@EldenLean well. As I said. When we get blasted we say. No no no. Weapons team is 1 model. So being consistent it means no. Official app is made by the same guys that keep failing at writing the same rule book for 40 years. Not the brightest bunch.
@@erupendragon7376 yep, that's totally trye, not the first time the app contradicts the rules.Btw, I now realized how dumb I am. Instead of playing with two vox casters and counting them as less than 20 for blast, I told my oponent that his blast was 4, and always forgot to use the vox casters...
The only thing that I could see ruining the 3+ AP shenanigans would be the fact that there are so many units with 5+4+ in vulnerable saves and I guess I just have crap luck but they always seem to make them always
Also, that unit will be shot by two of your units before the ap is maxed, so maybe not that much left to hurt? Against a titan or megablob of though ones it seems legit.
The units that shoot it can be a basalisk, a mortar from her squad, then the tank. Or the tank with fields of fire, then a mortar from her squad. It's not a big problem.
one may need to be a leman russ exterminator the other can be a dude with a lasgun so still quite some things to shoot it bur invulnerables are quite common@@karlnygren
Dont forget the Hellhound for Ignores Cover! Make those autocannons sing!
I have been including Ursula Creed even with Lord Solar to get the free Fields of Fire, even when she can't give out orders due to range the free strat is pretty amazing. At this point I have a half-built list with no solar in it... Not sure it's better than my original list though since I can't give orders to the Tank Commanders.
i like autocannons :)
It is indeed stackable. But on one hand you usually reach the invuls at additional 2 AP and on the other hand CP are too precious to spend them on Fields of Fire when you want Reinforcements too.
I would leave it at Creeds Fields of Fire and the -1 from the Exterminator. Maybe add a Hellhound to ignore cover instead...that's almost as good as another -1 AP.
To sum it up...yes, Creed is an auto-include as is the Lord for decent vehicle ordering.
Ally in an inquisitor. It’s power of the rosette stacks with creeds tactical genius to generate a cp on a +3. When you use a strat on the unit it’s leading.
I love bringing Creed and breaking the game with Guard! Keep up the great work always look forward to listening to
Oh hey the things I called out in comments about Creed. Oh hey a shout-out to the comments section. ❤😂
Trouble is, you have to target that thing you want to stack ap -3, is you have to shoot it with a minimum of 3 units before you get the full effect. We know even boosted lasguns will only really get a handful of hits in, so we’re sweeping in 4-5 units to target out of our army. Even with guard, we might only have 10-14 units total, so we’re shooting with a third or more of our army to destroy a single target. Logistically, it would be better to do it twice, sans the Leman Russ, to reduce the amount of points we’re focusing into this tactic. Sure, if the enemy is hyper elite, it’ll do wonders, but it wont take much to butt up into their invulns. -2 ap on a lasgun, or -3 on heavy bolters, or -5 on lascannons will be more than plenty of AP to lay the hurt down. And thats assuming they dont begin deploying defensive countermeasures like smoke, etc. Its good, but its application will be niche. It is a big investment.
I'm pretty sure the rule for Vox Caster says if the unit contains a Vox Caster, you can gain a CP. Sadly, I think that means 1 dice per unit. It's still cool.
I'm not sure about a unit being affected by the same strat ability twice. Fun if dickish!
My only query is around the CP generation part of this combo - isn’t there a rule somewhere which says a unit can only benefit from an ABILITY once, and subsequent uses of that ability don’t stack? The Vox caster is a wargear ability so doesn’t it only affect the unit once even though there are two models with that ability in the unit?
However I must say I Love these tactics videos - always look forward to learning a bit more about little combos and tricks and seeing your ideas about how to potentially push them further. I salute you sir.
Well done, you fed the 'GW spy-mole' we don't want any of that Nerf bat they're about to swing about. I think it all stacks, only issue is getting the two CP, I do like to have the reinforcement strat ready.
It would be disastrous to the balance of the game to nerf the guard in any way shape or form.
Guards at a 46% win rate on average. Id like a solid 50 but i don't mind it so long as it's around the 50 mark.
The factions in need of a stiff hit with the nerf bat are the Orks and Aldari who are at like 56% and 57% win rates and are, in a competitive game automatically going to win out against most armies, especially guard who sits in the bottom 25% of the win loss ratio.
congrats on the 40k subscribers
Wasn't there something about not gaining more than 1 extra cp per turn?
This tactic makes the basic mortar very good. Lots of shots, probably getting a good few lethal hits and now with some good AP… starts to make those cheap harassment mortars dangerous to elite infantry and maybe even has a bit more play into vehicles
THIS.
It's escalates harassment into a threat for sure!
If you attach an Cadian Castellan with Drill Commander enhancement, you're getting Sustained and Lethal Hits on 5s...
@@PF_K siiiiiick
Wow, thats in-creed-ible
Yeah, I’d like to try this with my foot slogging heavy mortar spam list I’m building now. So is 18 3+ to hit, AP 3 heavy mortars the best that I do.
I've run Creed with exterminators for a few competitive games now and lemme tell you that it's not all it's cracked up to be. It's great to get that force multiplier on your guns but to be totally effective you really need to plan it all out be an expert in your positioning, and even then you have to do the Sisyphus-ian task of having to snowball your abilities back up to lethality.
Don't get me wrong, it's fun to do. I deleted a full squad of death wing terminators in a turn because of the exterminator and Creed but I could have been more efficient if my first tank shooting already had the high AP.
Try it out, it might be up your alley, but I don't think that it's for everyone.
Napoleon and the tank commander are still the only ones that can order vehicles right?
Currently yes
I think it's pretty rare you'd want the 3rd ap for 2cp. The unit benefiting will be the 4+th unit to fire, so the target is either on invulns, or already gone. (It would be pretty sketchy to use 2cp on a single mortar into the target)
I think at +3ap you are looking at dumping "dodge this" lasgun fire into a bunch of custodes who just matrix 4++ through your main firepower.
So how would this stack with Kasrkin and their warrior elite rule (in tandem with Creed)?
The vast majority of targets that are so tough to take down that you might want to do this crazy tactic on will also have an invuln. At 2AP bonus, you're probably already bumping into that 4++ or 5++.
I don't think this is really worth it. It's also kind of a headache to plan, position, and execute.
Me looking at my two catachan and 6 kreig 20 stacks w voxcasters in each one, creed n strakken leading with marshals and platoon squads on the rest of the infantry
Been using this combo ever since the index came out and it's quite potent, too bad you can't get additional cp if you have Solar now with the worlds patch
Creed in an infantry squad with a mortar next to a mortar team sitting on your home objective is perfect for pointing to anything on the battlefield and saying "this dies this turn"
I've found that the exterminator to be a bit excessive since you've already shot the unit with quite a bit of firepower and most tough to crack units will already have an invulnerable save
I didnt see any comments, but i use this strategy with ogryns becuase if they shoot the closest they get another bonus ap. Like you said to much ap is a waste but efectively you get a heavy bolter stat -4ap
I think I'm gonna try this strategy out with my fobs. Running Ursula with a 10 man infantry squad with a mortar attached.
How about doing the creed Ap staking with a Hades Drill and a 6 man team of Ogryn. You could deepstrike the Ogryn unit, then focus fire with ap staking, plus Ogryn will get the -1 ap when shooting closest target and just lay the shots in? Viable?
Ogryn don't benefit from Fields of Fire, since only Regiment and Squadron units can benefit.
Does this work as a tactic with pure infantry guard?
Pure infantry means no exterminator russes, but going to +AP-2 is still impressive
Imagine 200 lasguns firing with ap -2.
Sounds horrifying. Just against my normal opponents alone it would murder them. Orks getting no save at all, berserkers saving on 5s. All against a hundred attacks per turn. Oof
@@williamblackburn9182orks will get the Waaaagh invul most likely.
Important to remember tank commanders don't have the squadron keyword and therefore don't get the extra ap from fields of fire.
A Space Marine Phobos Captain, in the Vanguard Detachment, can target two Infiltrator squads with the same stratagem for 0 CP. Infiltrators can take a radio thing to get the CP back too.
On the CP thing, I thought wargear abilities like vox caster and medibag only get one use per unit regardless of how many. So I could theoretically have 10 voxs in a unit, I only get 1 roll
That's what I ws going to ask... Because I also get the impression that it should only work once, even if you have 2 voxes in a unit.
How soon do you get to try it out in a tournament?
Battlecannon. You can use ursula on a unit with a battlecannon?
It's a strat She can use for free in your shooting phase ( Fields of Fire) on a squadron or regiment unit
1 unit with 2 vox casters can roll 2 dice?
This needs clarifying Mordian!
They're a wargear thingy, not a unit ability. Unit doesn't just get the ability from having the vox in it - you get the ability *per guy with a vox*. You have two voxes in the unit, so whenever you spend a CP on the unit, both abilities activate, so you roll for both. Like how you can fire with each lasgun in the unit, no matter if you have nine of those or a single one.
Do keep in mind that you can't generate more than one CP per turn, though, so if my understanding is correct you can't get a CP from both voxes and Leontus.
@@alexandrlidin2323just to confirm, 2x vox = x2 chance to generate an extra 1x CP max/turn?
Nm, just heard mordian explain it. 😁
I don't think you get to roll two dice. The vox caster gives the unit an ability, not a rulebook one, but a special ability listed on the datasheet. Abilities don't stack to be used multiple times at once. So you roll one dice for gaining the CP.
@@ravajaxe I got the impress when he mentioned benefiting from units you're already taking, that he meant an attached platoon command squad. I think the attached command squad with the master vox is just as well affected as the unit it is with, right?
Hmm, I wonder if this gives some legs to flamer units?
R.I.P to being able to use Creed for a free FoF, and gaining more than 2cp per turn. It was a good run while it lasted... At least they also nerfed our artillery & reinforcements as well!
I think the same CP generation can be done by a Death Korps Marshal, because he hands out a specific free strategem
He gives ignore battleshock wich is much more situational and doesn't help your shooting
IMO It takes too much setup to get the full -3ap but even -1 or -2 is more than enough, you just need to start forcing saves and every bit of AP makes a big difference.
Creed, and Straken are both very nice. Creed has enough orders for an artillery line.
The only but ur wrong one is the Vox-caster even if u have 2 in a unit u only get the ability to roll on the 4+ once per strat as abilities like that dont stack hemce the DKOK medi pack faq
I am new to 10th edition 40k, been out for quite some time, isn't there a rule saying you can only generate 1cp per turn? so even if you had multiple characters that generate you still are capped on how much you can actually get on a turn. as far as the -3ap. I think it would work like this, tank gives you the -1 for the next attack, the next unit has the -1 and gives a -1 on the next attack, the 3rd unit gets the -1 and gives another -1 (not sure if fof stacks) the 4th might actually get -2 (if they stack). if they do indeed stack, fof can make weak weapons far more potent. imagine that you use fof on indirect fire to attack anything on the board to apply the debuff. now the rest of your army can reap the reward. even cheapo little mortar teams could trigger the debuff in theory. I think you came up with an excellent tactic if it works. love your content, darktide got me back into warhammer. and actually made me want to consider playing guard. your channel has given me much inspiration to research and dig deep and really enjoy the game.
i wouldnt take GW's difference in wording to mean its allowed on one and not the other. By the same logic you can pack 6 Exalted Eightbound in a world eaters rhino, but regulat eightbound are a no-no
3:45, why are you brining up faqs, it says regiment right that. Also why do you need 20 minutes to say krieg synergizes with vox casters.
Tau Ethereals stand there, suck air, and generate 1 CP on a 4+ each and every one of your command phases. You can have three of them. Standing there in a strike team, with no ranged attacks. It's gross. Three Strike Teams and three Ethereals feel like the core of a Tau army. IDK why people spam crisis teams.
for some reason i thought you'd mention the one unit or upgrade that gives a CP aaaaand nevermind, you said it. free points cuz creed would make it a guarantee :)
MG broke Creed before the guard did
shes S tier, solars only worth it in heavy tank lists creeds best for combined arms
Well sure but pulling this off in battle would take some kind of tactical geniu ......... CREEEEEEED!!!!!!!
Far as I can tell it works. BRUTAL EFFICIENCY
Several armies can refund CP after a free strat. I thought we were all playing 10th already, but welcome aboard, I guess.
I don’t see many TOs allowing a fields of fire stack. It just seems like an oversight by GW to me. But all of this is just like, my opinion mannnnn!! 😂
Statistically 75% chance for 2 voxs to generate cp
Wait u guys havent been stacking FoF this whole time haha ive been doing it since the start 😅
Cadia stands!
Possible problem:
An infantry block with heavy weapons can only have 1 vox caster. When blast hits infantry they do not get blast +4. A heavy weapons squad counts as 1 Model.
“For every 10 MODELS…” so Mordian has been cheating with his double grenade launcher and 2 Heavy weapons teams.
Even if this was not the case. Don’t think you get to roll a die per vox caster.
The oficial app allows you to pick 2 vox casters even if you are going with the 14 infantry, 2 sergeants and 2 hwt. That being said, it could be unintentional, I don't know if it's FAQ'd or will be at some point
@@EldenLean well. As I said. When we get blasted we say. No no no. Weapons team is 1 model. So being consistent it means no.
Official app is made by the same guys that keep failing at writing the same rule book for 40 years. Not the brightest bunch.
@@erupendragon7376 yep, that's totally trye, not the first time the app contradicts the rules.Btw, I now realized how dumb I am. Instead of playing with two vox casters and counting them as less than 20 for blast, I told my oponent that his blast was 4, and always forgot to use the vox casters...
According to the app under the infantry Squads unit composition its clearly stated that heavy weapons teams counts as 2 models for wargear purposes.
@@ThePungljung yes it does. Thank you. Never read that before.
-3 AP, goes vs Daemons and Ad Mech, Rip Guard
So if this works hydras against flyers is just flyers dead get them hitting on 3s wounding on 2s with ap4 🤢🤢🤢
You cant throw 2 times a 4+. It is only still 1 roll of a 4+. Atleast thats what reddit claims
Oh yeah ive done this
Ekhm.....CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED
O7
:3
Lets stop blue balling each other
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