One other problem DC has is that they're TERRIBLE at introducing their lesser known characters! When starting their cinematic universe, DC just threw Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman together into the same set of films, in the hopes that it would turn out well! Meanwhile, just about ALL of Marvel's well known characters were owned by different studios, and thus, they had NO CHOICE but to use unknowns!
Guardians of the Galaxy, Eternals, Moon Knight, Ant-Man, Ms. Marvel, Black Panther, and Shang-Chi are great examples of the MCU introducing less known characters to the nonMarvel comics fans and got the MCU and causal fans to enjoy the characters and are excited to see them again in the MCU
Their biggest failure in all of this is not having a Kevin Feige of their own. He streamlined the entire Marvel franchise for its cinematic universe, so everything was planned out years before release. That's why Marvel's CU is leagues better in quality than DC's. DC just saw a business opportunity and ran to it without a single thought as to how the entire thing should be planned out ahead of time. Their entire CU was born from greed, impulsivity, and short-sightedness.
Also Another Reason why DCEU failed is Their Characters are way to Overpowered with Very Little Room for Growth... For example compare Superman with Thor...
Agree'd, Marvel developed their characters over numerous self contained stories with cleverly woven interaction points between the plots. It felt like DC tried to reach their own 'End Game' far too quick with some awful decisions on the way such as reducing the Justice League run time to 2 hours and cutting out key scenes leaving you wondering why the plot went the way it did and if you happened to suddenly get a bout of narcolepsy mid film!
I think audiences knew they'd have fun watching a Marvel film. Its true they didnt rush to get there but it did slowly feel like it was building to something. I think the problem for DC now is largerly reputational, they've become the uncool second best copycats in the eyes of audiences. People making jokes and laughing at them in posts and memes on the internet, it doesn't help that they took themselves so seriously and seem to be in a panic now and so aware of trying to copy Marvel.
It failed first & foremost because they rushed their storytelling to try to compete with Marvel thus didn’t properly develop the characters so the audience didn’t care about the characters. But also equally so, the whole mentality of “dark & brooding is always better” in the first film gave us the worst version of Superman of all time since it complete contradicts the character’s whole persona thus the foundation on which the film was established doomed the DCEU from the start.
I think people have also gotten a bit tired of the same type of film. It happens too much because companies see profit and less risk in doing "what people like". The only problem is they milk it to the point where we get sick of it.
MoS was a BIG first mistake on DC's part and it went further downhill from there after. The biggest problem with MoS I think it was that it pretty much didn't want to be a Superman movie, and that killed it right there, both for Superman(literally, since no second solo movie was ever released after with Cavill as Superman) and for Snyder's "DCEU" on film.
now we have a divided fanbase where half don't even want a DC universe, they just want the snyderverse. imo the best dc movies have been the lesser known characters, with suicide squad (gunn), shazam 1, and now blue beetle. im cool with darker movies, but I am not a fan of snyders approach. he's great with visuals and tone, but is really bad at getting me to care about the characters whatsoever.
@@EduFabolous you're completely wrong and I'll prove it. For starters, Superman is supposed to be a beacon of light, something for people to look at in amazement, wonder and also joy, to be inspired by and admire, also inspiring people to do what's right and good, this is the most basic thing about Superman and we see none of that in that movie. A shadow of the Superman as we all know him to be only comes out because Zod forces him to show up and even then we mostly see him bringing destruction everywhere and then death by killing Zod, which was a totally pointless thing to do because it didn't have the weight that it should have because it wasn't well stablished enough that Superman doesn't kill, but that was done only to make him more "adult" and gritty, because WB thought people wanted a Superman more like Nolan's Batman movies, which was an insanely dumb thing to assume or to think that it was the way to go with Superman, because the core of the character is the exact opposite of that. So WB made MoS the way they did and it failed and then came Marvel bringing the positivity and levity that a Superman movie needed and they became a huge phenomenon in movie history by doing so.... and WB spent the rest of the decade up to now on damage controle mode running after Marvel's success and failing for the most part with a few successes here and there but never quite getting where they wanted to be, and we also NEVER saw a second Superman solo movie with Henry Cavill, which is a shame bc he deserved much, much better. It was an absolute tragedy and a trainweck what happend and it all started with the mistaken course they took with MoS and it went all downhill from there.
@@rockbarcellos saying what he is supposed to be is making your own canon, judge MoS as FILM, and people talk about symbolism of hope, you want quick and easy hope from MCU, where you are told everything instead of being shown. Superman is very hopeful in MoS and BvS, what kind of BS is this where everyone ignores what they are seeing, he chooses humanity over kypton, humans reject him and he still is there, you want to say “it’s too dark”, that just a moronic and stupid excuse. By itself the film on a technical level beats any MCU movie, answear the question, which MCU movie have better of the following compared to MoS - score: no MCU film even comes half as close to this - cinematography: name one MCU movie with something that resembles cinematography much less it being the whole film - Action: Just watch the small ville fight in MoS and there is no comparison. You talk about the issue being WB wanting Dark and Gritty but that’s the issue, they did not commit to serious film making and began cutting corners ala MCU, the only thing they managed to do equal was copy their atrocious CGI and writing for Children
@@EduFabolous no, the character is more than 70 years old, he already have a pretty well stablished canon which he's known for by most people, or at least his most basic characteristics which I've mentioned in my previous comment are very well known. That's just what the character is, the same way Batman or Spiderman are what they are and people know and love them for it. Even if I were to judge the film on it's own it still fails to construct something that's engaging or at least entertaining, it is very pretentious in it's seriousness because it's only surface level seriousness, it's just aesthetics and it isn't really presenting anything truly interesting to think about, even though it pretends that it is. The overall tone of the movie is dark and serious and not "hopeful" at all, in fact it's the exact opposite bc in that story we see Kal being broken by the decision to kill Zod, but again, there was just no build up for making us care about that whatsoever so it's purely surface level depth. The only "hope" within that movie is the continuous promise that maybe at some point we'll finally see the Superman that most people know and love and that it is the core meaning of the character that was built over 70 years of stories across medias, as the symbol of light and good that I've mentioned before, but, as I also said before, that's never shown in that movie, and that's a HUGE flaw bc a Superman movie absolutely needs that. And don't get me wrong, I've mentioned Marvel's success but that doesn't mean I'm saying that the Marvel movies are the best thing ever, bc I don't think that to be the case at all, what I did say though is that WB rejecting a lighter more positive approach for their Superman movie thinking that it couldn't work and that the audience wouldn't go for it was CLEARLY a mistake on WB's part since Marvel's astounding success proved them wrong, to the point that WB tried to course correct midway through but then it was already pointless bc the damage was already taken and they also failed to implement that lighter tone with a minimum amount of quality or coherence. Marvel for all it's flaws and very cheap entertainment type of movies, at the very least was consistent and coherent and made some legitimate entertaining fun movies, at least an enough number of them that made people engaged and coming back to see what would come next. MoS on the other hand failed at the most basic level presenting a version of Superman that made no sense at all due to WB's mistaken course direction of stripping the character of his most basic elements that made him a success in the first place. The result was the failure that MoS was to win people's hearts and preference in the way Marvel and the Avengers manage to do, and that's a real tragedy, bc Justice League Unlimited is the living proof that Superman and the DC heroes universe could have been f*****g EPIC and even easily beat Marvel's success.... if done correctly...... which WB absolutely failed to do, unfortunately.
The reason is simple, Marvel started their cinematic universe by establishing and building their characters in solo movies that weren't huge successes, instead had ok box offices, before doing crossovers, while also teasing some elements from other movies instead of going all out, then it had its big payoff in Avengers both for them in the box office as for the fans that saw those heroes in solo movies and now were seeing them together on the big screen. WB saw that and just wanted those big bucks as fast as possible while failing to realize the formula when it stood right in front of their eyes. Marvel Started with Iron Man giving us Tony Stark and Fury, Incredible Hulk that introduced Hulk (that ended up being recast), Captain America giving us Steve and the Cosmic Cube, Thor giving us Thor, Loki and Clint, Iron Man 2 giving us Natasha before resulting in the Avengers where you assemble all of the main characters plus Natasha and Clint, Loki is the antagonist while the Cube is the object of struggle, all of this without mentioning how there were connections between the movies like Stark's father on Captain America or the post credit scenes. DC went Man of Steel that introduced Clark and IIRC only had a Wayne enterprises satellite, followed by Batman vs Superman that introduced Bruce, Diana, Barry, Arthur, Victor and Steppenwolf, these last 4 in very, very brief scenes that were shoved in there in the most artificial way it could have been done followed by Justice League that was around these people that had little to no build up with exception of Batman that was a completely different person due to the events of the previous movie, superman the only one that had a solo movie spent most of this movie dead. If you are not an fan of the comics you watch the MCU and you see the characters, get to know them and by the time avengers hit you are familiar with them, on the other side by the time Justice league hits a non-comic book reader that isn't familiar with those characters looks at that team and doesn't care about them, he doesn't know who they are because they weren't introduced to him, they were shoved in his face. WB wanted the big buck without any effort, while Marvel at least early on put on the effort, the results are in sight. Not only that but Marvel kept the plan after taking a hit (hulk), DC gave up with the first problems.
Diana got her film before JL...and her film was the only one regularly talked about in good standing for the Snyderverse before Aquaman & The Captain came about.
Introducing a large number of characters in a single film isn't inherently bad, though it is harder to manage than using a smaller cast. In that respect, you only need to look at Gunn's previous Marvel and DC projects to see that he's actually really skilled at that particular form of filmmaking. Guardians of the Galaxy and The Suicide Squad show that Gunn is *very* talented at those kinds of ensemble pieces.
The first movie was a origin for the team itself but it was really a origin for gamora and peter, the second movie focused on peter, infinity war focused the guardians storyline on gamora, the third one is rockets story
The funniest part, to me, is the Suicide Squad is the darkest, grittiest, edgiest thing in mainstream DC. Sure, there's JL: Dark and Constantine and stuff, but those aren't that mainstream, even after a Keanu Reeves movie, the Constantine tv series that got 1 season, his appearance in Arrow twice, and him being on Legends of tomorrow for I think 2 seasons. Plus a couple animated movies, including JL: Dark! Suicide Squad should've been Snyder's only movie. It's right up his alley and he could barely ruin any fan favorite characters, as long as he got Harley right. Then again, he may have also done Jared Leto's "DaMaGeD" Joker 😒 so idfk. But like, that's the one movie that definitely shouldn't have gone Disney.
The problem for then now is even if they start producing better quality content alot of the damage has already been done. Few people wanna see a new Adam Sandler movie now, even if it has good reviews.
This like so many other retrospectives(?) completely miss the mark. But I'll say this they had different opposite obstacles to overcome. Marvels roster and plan was unknown and they had nothing to live up to. Only pressure was to get ppl interested. DC characters were ICONS and everyone and their mother had their own idea of what they should be, thus they have to fight preexisting opinions, at that point they also had to fight the MCU, Funny enough and contrary to the narrative they were financially neck and neck and very competitive at the box office despite the MCU being 6 years old and DCEU a baby
Another problem with DCEU is they cast terrible to mediocre actors. Outside Henry Cavill and Ben Affleck, everyone else were usually background actors. Compare with MCU where major actors were announced to play such iconic characters, in recent memory Mahershala Ali as Blade.
Love your Videos! But i it feels a little to fast maybe put little pauses between some of the sentences, it helps to follow your interesting thoughts and feels more convenient
6:15: Actually Zod had a good reason for being the villain. He wanted to extract the codex from Clark and restart Krypton on Earth and Clark’s struggle between the adoptive home where he feel like an outcast and his biological one which he bearly knows was enthralling.
The Zod plot doesn't make sense. He had all this terraforming equipment and instead of making Mars Krypton he decided to try and kill everyone on earth. That is what I mean by he is just a villain comment. Maybe I should have expanded on it more. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed MoS, I just thought some of it could have been better.
@@The_Movie_Bandit Zod was operating on limited resources. Jor-El’s Phantom Drive technology takes energy and didn’t solve Krypton’s resources crisis. If it did, they would have stopped mining Krypton’s core. With limited resources and power, that Zod had a limited number of jumps with the Black Zero. For all we know, Zod had only one shot at using the World Engine before exhausting the Phantom Drive. The World Engine only terraforms mass and atmosphere. Why assume World Engines can magically change anything about a planet? By proposing Mars, there’s already the assumption a World Engine can’t turn a gas giant solid, it can create water from nothing. It can’t directly modify a planet’s distance from its star, its orbit or precession in relation to temperature and it can’t give a plant a magnetosphere. Without a strong magnetosphere, any atmosphere created would be simply blown away by solar winds. Mars has a frozen core incapable of generating a magnetosphere. The film established can’t fix planetary cores otherwise the Kryptonians would have used World Engines to fix Krypton’s core. There were literally no other candidates. Zod tells Clark when he’s brought onboard the Black Zero that they spent 33 years wandering as interstellar nomads. Why hasn’t Zod already terraformed a planet? Sure an entire planet shaped to Kryptonian needs and comfort is far better staging point than a retrofitted prison ship. Earth was the first viable candidate they found. Bottom line: Mars was not a viable candidate for permanent terraforming.
No disrespect felt at all. I disagree, it isn't nitpicking, it is asking for a film to have logical reasons behind a character motivation. The video you link is taking leaps to explain something that isn't explained in the film imo.
IMO Zack Snyder fixed his mistake in Justice League. In BvS he introduced too many storylines and characters and hence couldn't do justice to them and also the purpose of the title of the movie was lost somewhere in between. But then again he introduced a lot of characters and storylines while setting up the future in Justice League and I think there he did it right which made many of us very excited for his future
@@The_Movie_Bandit Yep me too man. Its my most favourite DCEU movie followed very closely by The Suicide Squad which is followed very closely by Man Of Steel
I still dont think he introduced too much. The cameos were minimal and focus was on Lex pulling strings throughout the film til the inevitable faceoff.
@@xxreyoxx The thing is that Age Of Ultron and Batman v Superman quite a bit too much on foreshadowing the future events. But ZSJL did it better than both of them
Why PG context that why!!!!! Kids have bring their parents and kids go to see alone means more money!!!! DC means more Adult Themes!!!!!!! Money I as Adult prefer the DC Movies!!!!!
Yeah instead of execs getting involved they should have just let the man get on with it. After man of Steel it very much felt like design by committee which would never work
I just think they should've stuck with Snyder. Look how it was going in the past compared to the complete mistakes that the whole WB/ DCU are making. I'm simply waiting for Snyder to end his projects at Netflix, because by that time the DCU will be bankrupt. Killing off a baby in Aquaman the Lost Kingdom. If movies continue that direction, the new DCU will be gone before Snyder returns to finish his films. It is confirmed that he will. He said once WB doesn't own DC anymore, he will continue it.
Why would DC have to copy MCU need for an origin story the MCU was for children and DC catered for a more mature audience, I laugh when I hear MCU fans get excited for the end credits scene like that's the best part of the movie when it finishes 😂
A lot of people use the criticism of DCEU rushing thing but that's not an issue. Every character does not need a standalone film before they are introduced. We got Superman then Trinity then Justice League. That's a natural progression that an audience can follow. Characterization can occur during the film. The animated Justice League film does a great job at doing this.
Superman, BVS, Wonder Woman, League. Don't forget Diana got her film before the league...and audiences were expecting Aquaman before the league as well, but league was so trash in 2017 that only Wonder Woman was actually talked about in high standing that year.
6:09 couldn't be further from the TRUTH. Man of Steel is all about Clark's journey as an individual the hopes and dreams of his father's forging and exploring his own path. It you can not get much clearer about Zod and his motivations, his only goal is the replication and preservation of krypton. He's not a villain for the sake of a villain. Were you not paying attention or....
One thing Zack Snyder wasn't making DC comics Justice league he was adapting the Dark Knight Returns as he stated in interview that's the comic he's only read of Superman and Batman.
@@daustin8888 he stated in interview he never got into mainstream comics that he loves dark graphic novels he liked Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns which is completely different version of DC.
Not to dissrespect the video maker but man of steel was the best movie of dc, it was such a good story and origin of superman i dont agree with you that the character od clark kent wasnt explored
No disrespect felt at all. I really like to hear other opinions. I agree with you that man of Steel was the best one. I actually enjoyed it. However, I felt the character of Clark wasn't explored enough. More could have been done. I would have definitely gone to see man of Steel 2 if it was released though.
@@The_Movie_Bandit Man of steel was not a bad movie not a good movie either. It was a mediocre movie with incredible scenes and sequences. But they could have continue the darker universe Zack snyder had build. They could have given a distinct movie experience rather than imitating marvel. Now DC is doing what marvel has done years ago
I'm sorry, but making a dark and brooding Superman is like making a light and cheerful Schindler's List. It's like if you switched the tones (and color palettes) of Barbie and Oppenheimer. It just doesn't work, no matter how technically skilled Zack Snyder is at composing a shot.
I DONT NO ABOUT THE NEW SUPERMAN MOVIE STARRING GAGGLES OF SUPERHEROES!! THIS IS NOT GOING 2 WORK!! OH WELL WB WILL B SOLD 2 UNIVERSAL WHICH MAKES CRAPPY BUT SUCCESSFUL PICS SO MAYB ITLL ALL WORK OUT!
it's not just about Tone. Snyder doesn't understand how to create relatable characters that connect those aspirational qualities that audiences can relate to. He doesnt' know how to create genuine blockbuster franchise intellectual property. He does, however, know how to make amazing living digital wall art. He bogs down his character narrative in favor of his amazing visceral slo motion wall art. Give him 4 hours of screen time, he will do both (Snyder Cut), But that doesnt make him a good film makter if he needs 4 hours to split the time with exhausting slomtion / high paced visual iconagraphic scenes along with his character building scenes, of which one feels he has a disdain for in his films Russo Bros. saved their iconic scene in Cap America Civil War for the end (Shield vs repulsor) It had build up and impact. Snyder would have diluted his entire film with them to the point of causing the audience to grow numb from all of the min climaxes he puts in his favorite storyboarded scenes
The reason why DCEU failed is because WB was almost always better than Disney at everything. They had better animations (after the golden Disney animation era of course). They had better movies and had better games/Tv shows etc. When Disney started MCU WB wanted to be best at live action superhero movies as-well so they forced David Goyer and Snyder to rush the BvS and Justice league. But then they just stopped and completely changed the tone of the DCEU and what's worse is that they didn't even approve any superman/ batman movies they just introduced C tier characters. They literally made a movie about Harley Quinn but not superman lol
Because marvel pumped out the non-canon movies like hotcakes. Spiderman set the tone in the 2000s and was a much better movie than whatever batman was being produced. So of course people would want marvel more. Not to mention all the hulk's movies and fantastic 4.
The common denominator of the Marvel Cinematic Universe vs DCEU comes down to bottom line resources. For decades DC was superior to Marvel Comics when it came to multimedia content. This was evident when DC consistently dominated Marvel in the box office and with 2D animation because DC had a better budget than Marvel back in the day. The moment Disney bought Marvel changed the dynamics completely. I wish DC was able to patiently develop its storyline content similar to how the MCU did. But the business part of competition didn't allow DC to properly develop their storylines. Marvel with the backing of Disney was able to throw piles of money into all of their projects. DC did well with the "Man of Steel" and "Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice." But the Justice League looked completely rushed. And unlike Marvel being able to pay most of their actors and keep mostly everyone happy, DC and Warner Brothers didn't appear to have that same luxury. I enjoyed mostly all of the MCU films. And I put Man of Steel and Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice (extended version) up there in comparison with any good comic book themed movies.
Zack snyder is not failing. WB the real reason why its fail. Yhey change the tone. WB trying to copy marvel tone. Which is funny,bright tone superhero movie. But it didn't work.
BvS tone was set by Snyder. The dark tone was not a success. It was also raised numerous times in MoS. WB certainly didn't help constantly changing it after the initial failure of the dark tone snyder wanted to go with. But some of the blame certainly sits with Snyder on that one. The dark tone works with Batman, but not so much with superman.
@@The_Movie_Bandit If anything they should have payed attention to the tone of each hero when making the movies. Superman- light Batman- dark Wonder Woman & Aquaman- half of each *they got these two right. The Captain- Light* also got right. Birds- yes dark works, but wrong for using Harley when a team of a Batgirl or three, Huntress and Black Canary is all you need.
"Disastrous performance of Batman v Superman"...... 873 MILLION Fifth HIGHEST grossing DC movie EVER made in 84 years Please stop spouting false narrative. No it didn't make a billion no that doesn't make it disastrous, at the time only about 25 movies in the history of cinema had made a billion, FF even to today just over 50 out of hundreds of thousands of films
It isn't a false narrative. This film was made to breach the billion dollar mark. It didn't. There are 24 movies that have hit the billion dollar mark and had a lower opening weekend than BvS. On top of that Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice had a bigger Friday-to-Friday drop than any major/big-budget comic book movie ever. It suffered a drop of 81.2% from its $81.5m opening day ( to $15.35 million on its second Friday). For what this movie was made to do, it failed.
@@The_Movie_Bandit it absolutely is a false narrative and you're grasping at straws. Not only is the stat you gave only about the domestic figures, and include the Thursday preview money, practically *EVERY* blockbuster makes the bulk of it's money the _first_ weekend. Also the person you're quoting (Scott mendelson) a known Snyder hater had to acknowledge it didn't fail in the very same article He said: "Again, it’s not that the film won’t be a hit. The film now sits at $587.822 million worldwide as of yesterday, will hit $600m today, and will probably top $700 million tomorrow. We’re looking at an over/under $1 billion grosser. It’s not a flop, a bomb, or any other such hyperbole. It’s going to make a lot of money,"
It absolutely isn't a false narrative. This film was expected to get to the billion mark, it didn't....it failed. The film had no legs. This isn't about whether it made a profit This is about what it was expected to do. Secondly, the film score was largely slated by professional critics and got largely mediocre reviews overall from audiences. Did it bomb? No. But was it a failure when considering the budget and the two main characters - absolutely. In that regards it was a disaster. Or are you seriously telling me it didn't underperform?
@@The_Movie_Bandit are you seriously telling me "underperforming" is the same as FAILING, failing to meet "expectations" is the same as FAILING. No FAILING is failing. And no matter how you slice it or whatever wordplay you use making nearly 900 million dollars is not failing. Being in the top grossing DC movies of all time is not failing. Making many multiple times more than your budget and profiting is not failing. And for the record, no Batman nor Superman have ever been a guarantee for doing high numbers
If the film underperformed both commercially and critically, then yes, it was a failure. Failure means lack of success - that fits BvS perfectly. I think this conversation has run it's course, I won't be responding further.
@@blacksuit779 black adam, shazam, shazam 2, justice league, green lantern, wonder woman 1984, blue beetle etc lmao. Echo & she-hulk are tv series and madame web is Sony not marvel. Dc has constant flops on a row. Its so bad that they have to reboot atleast marvel brand is still going
I'd be interested to know what you all think was the reason for the DCEU failing? Did I miss anything in the video?
You missed the fact that Superman has been around for almost 85 years, not 75 as stated in your video.
@stuunitt2947 good spot, you are quite right.
One other problem DC has is that they're TERRIBLE at introducing their lesser known characters! When starting their cinematic universe, DC just threw Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman together into the same set of films, in the hopes that it would turn out well! Meanwhile, just about ALL of Marvel's well known characters were owned by different studios, and thus, they had NO CHOICE but to use unknowns!
Very good point.
Guardians of the Galaxy, Eternals, Moon Knight, Ant-Man, Ms. Marvel, Black Panther, and Shang-Chi are great examples of the MCU introducing less known characters to the nonMarvel comics fans and got the MCU and causal fans to enjoy the characters and are excited to see them again in the MCU
But they have James Gunn now who is the King at introducing lesser known characters into the main stream
Their biggest failure in all of this is not having a Kevin Feige of their own. He streamlined the entire Marvel franchise for its cinematic universe, so everything was planned out years before release. That's why Marvel's CU is leagues better in quality than DC's. DC just saw a business opportunity and ran to it without a single thought as to how the entire thing should be planned out ahead of time. Their entire CU was born from greed, impulsivity, and short-sightedness.
Great point.
Also Another Reason why DCEU failed is Their Characters are way to Overpowered with Very Little Room for Growth...
For example compare Superman with Thor...
Agree'd, Marvel developed their characters over numerous self contained stories with cleverly woven interaction points between the plots. It felt like DC tried to reach their own 'End Game' far too quick with some awful decisions on the way such as reducing the Justice League run time to 2 hours and cutting out key scenes leaving you wondering why the plot went the way it did and if you happened to suddenly get a bout of narcolepsy mid film!
Marvel used to have a 1 decade headstart on DC, now they have a 2 decade headstart lol.
I think audiences knew they'd have fun watching a Marvel film. Its true they didnt rush to get there but it did slowly feel like it was building to something. I think the problem for DC now is largerly reputational, they've become the uncool second best copycats in the eyes of audiences. People making jokes and laughing at them in posts and memes on the internet, it doesn't help that they took themselves so seriously and seem to be in a panic now and so aware of trying to copy Marvel.
Steve rogers in the mcu is more like Superman than zack snyders superman is
It failed first & foremost because they rushed their storytelling to try to compete with Marvel thus didn’t properly develop the characters so the audience didn’t care about the characters. But also equally so, the whole mentality of “dark & brooding is always better” in the first film gave us the worst version of Superman of all time since it complete contradicts the character’s whole persona thus the foundation on which the film was established doomed the DCEU from the start.
I think people have also gotten a bit tired of the same type of film. It happens too much because companies see profit and less risk in doing "what people like". The only problem is they milk it to the point where we get sick of it.
MoS was a BIG first mistake on DC's part and it went further downhill from there after. The biggest problem with MoS I think it was that it pretty much didn't want to be a Superman movie, and that killed it right there, both for Superman(literally, since no second solo movie was ever released after with Cavill as Superman) and for Snyder's "DCEU" on film.
now we have a divided fanbase where half don't even want a DC universe, they just want the snyderverse. imo the best dc movies have been the lesser known characters, with suicide squad (gunn), shazam 1, and now blue beetle. im cool with darker movies, but I am not a fan of snyders approach. he's great with visuals and tone, but is really bad at getting me to care about the characters whatsoever.
this comment is so ignorant, Man of Steel is THE SUPERMAN movie
@@EduFabolous you're completely wrong and I'll prove it.
For starters, Superman is supposed to be a beacon of light, something for people to look at in amazement, wonder and also joy, to be inspired by and admire, also inspiring people to do what's right and good, this is the most basic thing about Superman and we see none of that in that movie.
A shadow of the Superman as we all know him to be only comes out because Zod forces him to show up and even then we mostly see him bringing destruction everywhere and then death by killing Zod, which was a totally pointless thing to do because it didn't have the weight that it should have because it wasn't well stablished enough that Superman doesn't kill, but that was done only to make him more "adult" and gritty, because WB thought people wanted a Superman more like Nolan's Batman movies, which was an insanely dumb thing to assume or to think that it was the way to go with Superman, because the core of the character is the exact opposite of that. So WB made MoS the way they did and it failed and then came Marvel bringing the positivity and levity that a Superman movie needed and they became a huge phenomenon in movie history by doing so.... and WB spent the rest of the decade up to now on damage controle mode running after Marvel's success and failing for the most part with a few successes here and there but never quite getting where they wanted to be, and we also NEVER saw a second Superman solo movie with Henry Cavill, which is a shame bc he deserved much, much better. It was an absolute tragedy and a trainweck what happend and it all started with the mistaken course they took with MoS and it went all downhill from there.
@@rockbarcellos saying what he is supposed to be is making your own canon, judge MoS as FILM, and people talk about symbolism of hope, you want quick and easy hope from MCU, where you are told everything instead of being shown.
Superman is very hopeful in MoS and BvS, what kind of BS is this where everyone ignores what they are seeing, he chooses humanity over kypton, humans reject him and he still is there, you want to say “it’s too dark”, that just a moronic and stupid excuse.
By itself the film on a technical level beats any MCU movie, answear the question, which MCU movie have better of the following compared to MoS
- score: no MCU film even comes half as close to this
- cinematography: name one MCU movie with something that resembles cinematography much less it being the whole film
- Action: Just watch the small ville fight in MoS and there is no comparison.
You talk about the issue being WB wanting Dark and Gritty but that’s the issue, they did not commit to serious film making and began cutting corners ala MCU, the only thing they managed to do equal was copy their atrocious CGI and writing for Children
@@EduFabolous no, the character is more than 70 years old, he already have a pretty well stablished canon which he's known for by most people, or at least his most basic characteristics which I've mentioned in my previous comment are very well known. That's just what the character is, the same way Batman or Spiderman are what they are and people know and love them for it.
Even if I were to judge the film on it's own it still fails to construct something that's engaging or at least entertaining, it is very pretentious in it's seriousness because it's only surface level seriousness, it's just aesthetics and it isn't really presenting anything truly interesting to think about, even though it pretends that it is.
The overall tone of the movie is dark and serious and not "hopeful" at all, in fact it's the exact opposite bc in that story we see Kal being broken by the decision to kill Zod, but again, there was just no build up for making us care about that whatsoever so it's purely surface level depth.
The only "hope" within that movie is the continuous promise that maybe at some point we'll finally see the Superman that most people know and love and that it is the core meaning of the character that was built over 70 years of stories across medias, as the symbol of light and good that I've mentioned before, but, as I also said before, that's never shown in that movie, and that's a HUGE flaw bc a Superman movie absolutely needs that.
And don't get me wrong, I've mentioned Marvel's success but that doesn't mean I'm saying that the Marvel movies are the best thing ever, bc I don't think that to be the case at all, what I did say though is that WB rejecting a lighter more positive approach for their Superman movie thinking that it couldn't work and that the audience wouldn't go for it was CLEARLY a mistake on WB's part since Marvel's astounding success proved them wrong, to the point that WB tried to course correct midway through but then it was already pointless bc the damage was already taken and they also failed to implement that lighter tone with a minimum amount of quality or coherence.
Marvel for all it's flaws and very cheap entertainment type of movies, at the very least was consistent and coherent and made some legitimate entertaining fun movies, at least an enough number of them
that made people engaged and coming back to see what would come next.
MoS on the other hand failed at the most basic level presenting a version of Superman that made no sense at all due to WB's mistaken course direction of stripping the character of his most basic elements that made him a success in the first place.
The result was the failure that MoS was to win people's hearts and preference in the way Marvel and the Avengers manage to do, and that's a real tragedy, bc Justice League Unlimited is the living proof that Superman and the DC heroes universe could have been f*****g EPIC and even easily beat Marvel's success.... if done correctly...... which WB absolutely failed to do, unfortunately.
Wow I actually didn’t know that part about Marcel putting up certain characters as collateral for the loan. That’s pretty gutsy I’ll give them that
The reason is simple, Marvel started their cinematic universe by establishing and building their characters in solo movies that weren't huge successes, instead had ok box offices, before doing crossovers, while also teasing some elements from other movies instead of going all out, then it had its big payoff in Avengers both for them in the box office as for the fans that saw those heroes in solo movies and now were seeing them together on the big screen.
WB saw that and just wanted those big bucks as fast as possible while failing to realize the formula when it stood right in front of their eyes.
Marvel Started with Iron Man giving us Tony Stark and Fury, Incredible Hulk that introduced Hulk (that ended up being recast), Captain America giving us Steve and the Cosmic Cube, Thor giving us Thor, Loki and Clint, Iron Man 2 giving us Natasha before resulting in the Avengers where you assemble all of the main characters plus Natasha and Clint, Loki is the antagonist while the Cube is the object of struggle, all of this without mentioning how there were connections between the movies like Stark's father on Captain America or the post credit scenes.
DC went Man of Steel that introduced Clark and IIRC only had a Wayne enterprises satellite, followed by Batman vs Superman that introduced Bruce, Diana, Barry, Arthur, Victor and Steppenwolf, these last 4 in very, very brief scenes that were shoved in there in the most artificial way it could have been done followed by Justice League that was around these people that had little to no build up with exception of Batman that was a completely different person due to the events of the previous movie, superman the only one that had a solo movie spent most of this movie dead.
If you are not an fan of the comics you watch the MCU and you see the characters, get to know them and by the time avengers hit you are familiar with them, on the other side by the time Justice league hits a non-comic book reader that isn't familiar with those characters looks at that team and doesn't care about them, he doesn't know who they are because they weren't introduced to him, they were shoved in his face.
WB wanted the big buck without any effort, while Marvel at least early on put on the effort, the results are in sight. Not only that but Marvel kept the plan after taking a hit (hulk), DC gave up with the first problems.
Diana got her film before JL...and her film was the only one regularly talked about in good standing for the Snyderverse before Aquaman & The Captain came about.
5:42 just realised how similar the destroyer looked like Snyders Steppenwolf
DC automatically won when they created Superman. You literally would not have superheroes if it wasn't for DC/Superman
Introducing a large number of characters in a single film isn't inherently bad, though it is harder to manage than using a smaller cast. In that respect, you only need to look at Gunn's previous Marvel and DC projects to see that he's actually really skilled at that particular form of filmmaking. Guardians of the Galaxy and The Suicide Squad show that Gunn is *very* talented at those kinds of ensemble pieces.
Agreed with what you have said. It does make the task of storytelling a lot harder, though. Sometimes, it is best to keep it simple.
Exactly like look at guardians each guardians movie is very much focused on a particular guardian which lends too better story telling.
The first movie was a origin for the team itself but it was really a origin for gamora and peter, the second movie focused on peter, infinity war focused the guardians storyline on gamora, the third one is rockets story
They are able too focus on individual characters while also not forgetting the rest.
The funniest part, to me, is the Suicide Squad is the darkest, grittiest, edgiest thing in mainstream DC. Sure, there's JL: Dark and Constantine and stuff, but those aren't that mainstream, even after a Keanu Reeves movie, the Constantine tv series that got 1 season, his appearance in Arrow twice, and him being on Legends of tomorrow for I think 2 seasons. Plus a couple animated movies, including JL: Dark!
Suicide Squad should've been Snyder's only movie. It's right up his alley and he could barely ruin any fan favorite characters, as long as he got Harley right. Then again, he may have also done Jared Leto's "DaMaGeD" Joker 😒 so idfk. But like, that's the one movie that definitely shouldn't have gone Disney.
At least the DCU has a chance of coming back strong with James Gunn.... The MCU is yet to be put out of it's misery
Nice joke. Marvel is doing way better than dc rn plus james project isn't even out yet
Keep playing, marvel's failure is still DCs Success
The problem for then now is even if they start producing better quality content alot of the damage has already been done. Few people wanna see a new Adam Sandler movie now, even if it has good reviews.
That is a good point
This like so many other retrospectives(?) completely miss the mark.
But I'll say this they had different opposite obstacles to overcome. Marvels roster and plan was unknown and they had nothing to live up to. Only pressure was to get ppl interested.
DC characters were ICONS and everyone and their mother had their own idea of what they should be, thus they have to fight preexisting opinions, at that point they also had to fight the MCU,
Funny enough and contrary to the narrative they were financially neck and neck and very competitive at the box office despite the MCU being 6 years old and DCEU a baby
Another problem with DCEU is they cast terrible to mediocre actors. Outside Henry Cavill and Ben Affleck, everyone else were usually background actors. Compare with MCU where major actors were announced to play such iconic characters, in recent memory Mahershala Ali as Blade.
Blade is canceled.
Great thumbnail and intro bro👍
Appreciate it
Love your Videos!
But i it feels a little to fast maybe put little pauses between some of the sentences, it helps to follow your interesting thoughts and feels more convenient
Thanks for the feedback, I will take it on board.
6:15: Actually Zod had a good reason for being the villain. He wanted to extract the codex from Clark and restart Krypton on Earth and Clark’s struggle between the adoptive home where he feel like an outcast and his biological one which he bearly knows was enthralling.
The Zod plot doesn't make sense. He had all this terraforming equipment and instead of making Mars Krypton he decided to try and kill everyone on earth. That is what I mean by he is just a villain comment. Maybe I should have expanded on it more.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed MoS, I just thought some of it could have been better.
@@The_Movie_Bandit Zod was operating on limited resources. Jor-El’s Phantom Drive technology takes energy and didn’t solve Krypton’s resources crisis. If it did, they would have stopped mining Krypton’s core. With limited resources and power, that Zod had a limited number of jumps with the Black Zero. For all we know, Zod had only one shot at using the World Engine before exhausting the Phantom Drive.
The World Engine only terraforms mass and atmosphere. Why assume World Engines can magically change anything about a planet? By proposing Mars, there’s already the assumption a World Engine can’t turn a gas giant solid, it can create water from nothing. It can’t directly modify a planet’s distance from its star, its orbit or precession in relation to temperature and it can’t give a plant a magnetosphere. Without a strong magnetosphere, any atmosphere created would be simply blown away by solar winds. Mars has a frozen core incapable of generating a magnetosphere. The film established can’t fix planetary cores otherwise the Kryptonians would have used World Engines to fix Krypton’s core.
There were literally no other candidates. Zod tells Clark when he’s brought onboard the Black Zero that they spent 33 years wandering as interstellar nomads. Why hasn’t Zod already terraformed a planet? Sure an entire planet shaped to Kryptonian needs and comfort is far better staging point than a retrofitted prison ship.
Earth was the first viable candidate they found.
Bottom line: Mars was not a viable candidate for permanent terraforming.
No disrespect felt at all.
I disagree, it isn't nitpicking, it is asking for a film to have logical reasons behind a character motivation. The video you link is taking leaps to explain something that isn't explained in the film imo.
@@The_Movie_Bandit Strongly disagree with that one bro. It’s clearly explained in the clips from the movie.
Well, I'm happy to agree to disagree on that one. Thanks for the conversation. It was interesting.
Batman and Robin was just not a good movie.
IMO Zack Snyder fixed his mistake in Justice League. In BvS he introduced too many storylines and characters and hence couldn't do justice to them and also the purpose of the title of the movie was lost somewhere in between. But then again he introduced a lot of characters and storylines while setting up the future in Justice League and I think there he did it right which made many of us very excited for his future
I did enjoy his version of justice league. It was a lot better than the original release.
@@The_Movie_Bandit Yep me too man. Its my most favourite DCEU movie followed very closely by The Suicide Squad which is followed very closely by Man Of Steel
I still dont think he introduced too much. The cameos were minimal and focus was on Lex pulling strings throughout the film til the inevitable faceoff.
@@xxreyoxx The thing is that Age Of Ultron and Batman v Superman quite a bit too much on foreshadowing the future events. But ZSJL did it better than both of them
Still is a bad movie.
Why PG context that why!!!!! Kids have bring their parents and kids go to see alone means more money!!!! DC means more Adult Themes!!!!!!! Money I as Adult prefer the DC Movies!!!!!
In my opinion they should have stuck with Snyder because they would have done by 2019 and then could’ve rebooted
Yeah instead of execs getting involved they should have just let the man get on with it. After man of Steel it very much felt like design by committee which would never work
@@The_Movie_Bandit I kinda feel scared for the dcu and Superman legacy sounds like the bvs situation all over again
@Dabisingh--wx4jz see I'm just going into it with an open mind. I thought Robert Patterson batman would be awful but really enjoyed it.
I just think they should've stuck with Snyder. Look how it was going in the past compared to the complete mistakes that the whole WB/ DCU are making. I'm simply waiting for Snyder to end his projects at Netflix, because by that time the DCU will be bankrupt. Killing off a baby in Aquaman the Lost Kingdom. If movies continue that direction, the new DCU will be gone before Snyder returns to finish his films. It is confirmed that he will. He said once WB doesn't own DC anymore, he will continue it.
Why would DC have to copy MCU need for an origin story the MCU was for children and DC catered for a more mature audience, I laugh when I hear MCU fans get excited for the end credits scene like that's the best part of the movie when it finishes 😂
superman is 85 yrs actually
If james gunn fail we will get only batman fill for the next 10 years
A lot of people use the criticism of DCEU rushing thing but that's not an issue. Every character does not need a standalone film before they are introduced. We got Superman then Trinity then Justice League. That's a natural progression that an audience can follow. Characterization can occur during the film. The animated Justice League film does a great job at doing this.
Superman, BVS, Wonder Woman, League.
Don't forget Diana got her film before the league...and audiences were expecting Aquaman before the league as well, but league was so trash in 2017 that only Wonder Woman was actually talked about in high standing that year.
6:09 couldn't be further from the TRUTH. Man of Steel is all about Clark's journey as an individual the hopes and dreams of his father's forging and exploring his own path. It you can not get much clearer about Zod and his motivations, his only goal is the replication and preservation of krypton. He's not a villain for the sake of a villain. Were you not paying attention or....
One thing Zack Snyder wasn't making DC comics Justice league he was adapting the Dark Knight Returns as he stated in interview that's the comic he's only read of Superman and Batman.
But he *totally* loves these characters
@@daustin8888 he stated in interview he never got into mainstream comics that he loves dark graphic novels he liked Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns which is completely different version of DC.
It was ahead of its time
😂 LOL 😂
Fr
Ahead of its time to flop.
Snyder tards are the most delusional fan base ever
Not to dissrespect the video maker but man of steel was the best movie of dc, it was such a good story and origin of superman i dont agree with you that the character od clark kent wasnt explored
No disrespect felt at all. I really like to hear other opinions. I agree with you that man of Steel was the best one. I actually enjoyed it. However, I felt the character of Clark wasn't explored enough. More could have been done.
I would have definitely gone to see man of Steel 2 if it was released though.
Man of Steel feel more a New52 Supergirl movie, too alien and distant.
@@The_Movie_Bandit Man of steel was not a bad movie not a good movie either. It was a mediocre movie with incredible scenes and sequences. But they could have continue the darker universe Zack snyder had build. They could have given a distinct movie experience rather than imitating marvel.
Now DC is doing what marvel has done years ago
I'm sorry, but making a dark and brooding Superman is like making a light and cheerful Schindler's List. It's like if you switched the tones (and color palettes) of Barbie and Oppenheimer. It just doesn't work, no matter how technically skilled Zack Snyder is at composing a shot.
💯
DC always lost to Marvel and WB is the main one to embarrass their own franchise
Not really DC is currently destroying marvel in comics
@@Tibutaryno one talks about comics. Movies>
Man of steel was the shit!
I DONT NO ABOUT THE NEW SUPERMAN MOVIE STARRING GAGGLES OF SUPERHEROES!! THIS IS NOT GOING 2 WORK!! OH WELL WB WILL B SOLD 2 UNIVERSAL WHICH MAKES CRAPPY BUT SUCCESSFUL PICS SO MAYB ITLL ALL WORK OUT!
it's not just about Tone. Snyder doesn't understand how to create relatable characters that connect those aspirational qualities that audiences can relate to. He doesnt' know how to create genuine blockbuster franchise intellectual property. He does, however, know how to make amazing living digital wall art. He bogs down his character narrative in favor of his amazing visceral slo motion wall art. Give him 4 hours of screen time, he will do both (Snyder Cut), But that doesnt make him a good film makter if he needs 4 hours to split the time with exhausting slomtion / high paced visual iconagraphic scenes along with his character building scenes, of which one feels he has a disdain for in his films
Russo Bros. saved their iconic scene in Cap America Civil War for the end (Shield vs repulsor) It had build up and impact. Snyder would have diluted his entire film with them to the point of causing the audience to grow numb from all of the min climaxes he puts in his favorite storyboarded scenes
The reason why DCEU failed is because WB was almost always better than Disney at everything. They had better animations (after the golden Disney animation era of course). They had better movies and had better games/Tv shows etc. When Disney started MCU WB wanted to be best at live action superhero movies as-well so they forced David Goyer and Snyder to rush the BvS and Justice league. But then they just stopped and completely changed the tone of the DCEU and what's worse is that they didn't even approve any superman/ batman movies they just introduced C tier characters. They literally made a movie about Harley Quinn but not superman lol
¿Better animations? Ha ha ha ha ha ha
They sucks in his MCU cartoon shows.
Gunn didn't do so well with the second Suicide Squad.
batman main character of DC not superman
superman was the first actually he was created in 1938 Batman in 1939
Because marvel pumped out the non-canon movies like hotcakes. Spiderman set the tone in the 2000s and was a much better movie than whatever batman was being produced. So of course people would want marvel more. Not to mention all the hulk's movies and fantastic 4.
The common denominator of the Marvel Cinematic Universe vs DCEU comes down to bottom line resources. For decades DC was superior to Marvel Comics when it came to multimedia content. This was evident when DC consistently dominated Marvel in the box office and with 2D animation because DC had a better budget than Marvel back in the day.
The moment Disney bought Marvel changed the dynamics completely. I wish DC was able to patiently develop its storyline content similar to how the MCU did. But the business part of competition didn't allow DC to properly develop their storylines. Marvel with the backing of Disney was able to throw piles of money into all of their projects.
DC did well with the "Man of Steel" and "Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice." But the Justice League looked completely rushed. And unlike Marvel being able to pay most of their actors and keep mostly everyone happy, DC and Warner Brothers didn't appear to have that same luxury. I enjoyed mostly all of the MCU films. And I put Man of Steel and Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice (extended version) up there in comparison with any good comic book themed movies.
I agree with you.
Zack snyder is not failing. WB the real reason why its fail. Yhey change the tone. WB trying to copy marvel tone. Which is funny,bright tone superhero movie. But it didn't work.
BvS tone was set by Snyder. The dark tone was not a success. It was also raised numerous times in MoS. WB certainly didn't help constantly changing it after the initial failure of the dark tone snyder wanted to go with. But some of the blame certainly sits with Snyder on that one. The dark tone works with Batman, but not so much with superman.
@@The_Movie_Bandit If anything they should have payed attention to the tone of each hero when making the movies.
Superman- light
Batman- dark
Wonder Woman & Aquaman- half of each *they got these two right.
The Captain- Light* also got right.
Birds- yes dark works, but wrong for using Harley when a team of a Batgirl or three, Huntress and Black Canary is all you need.
"Disastrous performance of Batman v Superman"......
873 MILLION
Fifth HIGHEST grossing DC movie EVER made in 84 years
Please stop spouting false narrative. No it didn't make a billion no that doesn't make it disastrous, at the time only about 25 movies in the history of cinema had made a billion, FF even to today just over 50 out of hundreds of thousands of films
It isn't a false narrative. This film was made to breach the billion dollar mark. It didn't.
There are 24 movies that have hit the billion dollar mark and had a lower opening weekend than BvS. On top of that Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice had a bigger Friday-to-Friday drop than any major/big-budget comic book movie ever. It suffered a drop of 81.2% from its $81.5m opening day ( to $15.35 million on its second Friday).
For what this movie was made to do, it failed.
@@The_Movie_Bandit it absolutely is a false narrative and you're grasping at straws.
Not only is the stat you gave only about the domestic figures, and include the Thursday preview money, practically *EVERY* blockbuster makes the bulk of it's money the _first_ weekend.
Also the person you're quoting (Scott mendelson) a known Snyder hater had to acknowledge it didn't fail in the very same article
He said:
"Again, it’s not that the film won’t be a hit. The film now sits at $587.822 million worldwide as of yesterday, will hit $600m today, and will probably top $700 million tomorrow. We’re looking at an over/under $1 billion grosser. It’s not a flop, a bomb, or any other such hyperbole. It’s going to make a lot of money,"
It absolutely isn't a false narrative.
This film was expected to get to the billion mark, it didn't....it failed. The film had no legs. This isn't about whether it made a profit
This is about what it was expected to do.
Secondly, the film score was largely slated by professional critics and got largely mediocre reviews overall from audiences.
Did it bomb? No. But was it a failure when considering the budget and the two main characters - absolutely. In that regards it was a disaster.
Or are you seriously telling me it didn't underperform?
@@The_Movie_Bandit are you seriously telling me "underperforming" is the same as FAILING, failing to meet "expectations" is the same as FAILING.
No FAILING is failing. And no matter how you slice it or whatever wordplay you use making nearly 900 million dollars is not failing. Being in the top grossing DC movies of all time is not failing. Making many multiple times more than your budget and profiting is not failing.
And for the record, no Batman nor Superman have ever been a guarantee for doing high numbers
If the film underperformed both commercially and critically, then yes, it was a failure. Failure means lack of success - that fits BvS perfectly.
I think this conversation has run it's course, I won't be responding further.
James Gunn DCU will not last and the DCEU will return.
fuck no it won't. don't lie to yourself
@@jboy544 Yes it will don't lie to yourself.
lol if James Gunn fails than someone else that isn’t Snyder will be in charge.
@@randynguyen9778you are delusional
@@randynguyen9778DCEU couldn’t even cast Lex Luthor and Joker right
Snyder's DC is better that M-She-U Wokesaga Phase 4-6
😆😅🤣😂
Still mcu is making more money than deadc 😂😂
@@QuxLux
Mcu Multiwoke Saga is Flop
😄😆😅🤣😂
@@blacksuit779 thats your opinion 🤣 in reality mcu is doing way better. Atleast they aren't rebooting 🤣🤣
@@QuxLux
Madame Web, The Marvel's, She-Hulk, Echo, and and and.
😄😆😅🤣😂.
Gay Saga.
Snyderverse is better that D-She-U and M-She-U.
😄😆😅🤣😂
@@blacksuit779 black adam, shazam, shazam 2, justice league, green lantern, wonder woman 1984, blue beetle etc lmao. Echo & she-hulk are tv series and madame web is Sony not marvel. Dc has constant flops on a row. Its so bad that they have to reboot atleast marvel brand is still going
idt ppl get boring of seeing a hero movie but nowadays heros have nothing to challenge to become a hero. and the woke agenda pissed everbody off.
Dats cope