What you hear in better quality cables often is not the tone, not an analysis of the bass, the midrange or the treble, it's in hearing the improved detail, transparency and spatiality of the 3-dimensional stereo image. But in order to hear those differences it comes down to setup. If a system is set up to present an accurate presentation of the stereo image then those differences can be become much more clear. If the system is not set up for that and one is merely listening for differences in tonality, whether they hear more or less bass, if vocals sound drastically different, or that a hi-hat is transformed, then you are not going to hear a huge difference. To reap the benefits of quality cables you need to have a properly set up system to maximize the stereo image and often the set up should include proper room treatments. You may say then, well why the heck do i need to go through all of that work to be able to hear differences in cables? You don't. It all depends on what you want. I say to each their own then. There is a market for higher quality cables because it caters to those who have a system set up to benefit from those cables. If you don't want to hear the differences cables make then just stick with the setup you have and carry on. For those of us who are maximizing the reproduction of the stereo image we will then reap the benefits of higher quality cabling.
You put some time & thought into your comments and I appreciate that. There have been a few arguments about cables effecting the stereo image, but basically just a slight movement of your head will effect the image more than the cables....but you can spend your money however you want in your search for audio nirvana- that is part of the hobby.
@@vintageaudioreview Thanks. I would not argue that the differences cables make is gigantic. But it's at times quite noticeable in the right systems and it comes down to how much you want to spend for those small improvements and what they mean to you. I don't have the money for super expensive cables but even if I did I don't have interest in them. All my cabling - speaker cables, interconnects, digital and power all add up to less $1k and that's the most I want t spend but to me they are worth it because they have all made a very clear and meaningful difference but I'm not interested in spending more for a tiny bit more of a difference. I know that you could reply and say that all of your cables add up to less than $50 total, I get it.
@@sean_heisler I have no problem on spending whatever you want on cables, and $1k does not sound too bad at all. Sometimes the cables look neat and have a good feel to them. If your cables are exposed then looks can play a part for some. It will be interesting to see the comments on another cable test I did that will be out in a few weeks.
@sean_heisler In reality, the quality of the 3-dimensional Imaging and Soundstage performance of loudspeakers have absolutely nothing to do with what speaker cables you are using. The properties, quality, or "precision" of the Imaging and Soundstage are determined first by what is captured or mixed into the recording itself, and secondly by the design and quality of the speakers themselves plus the acoustics of the room they are placed in. There is a third very important factor... In order for our auditory system to perceive a more accurate/more focused soundstage that reproduces exactly what is captured or mixed into the recording, the single most important factor is that the Amplitude Response (Level vs. Frequency, or "Frequency Response") Between the Right AND Left loudspeakers be as Closely Matched and as similar as possible At Your Listening Position. An imbalance between the Frequency Response of the Left vs. Right speakers will make it difficult to achieve good imaging. Achieving good imaging and soundstage performance with loudspeakers that are placed in a non-symmetrical room can be problematic. For example, when you have your speakers placed in a living room in an open-plan home where one speaker is in a corner with both a wall to the side and behind the speaker, while the other speaker has the same wall behind it, but no side wall because that side of the room is open to another adjacent living area such as the kitchen or dining area. In this scenario, due to the difference in reflections as well as the difference in boundary-loading and "room gain" between the left and right speakers, the Left vs. Right Frequency Response will be quite different, and the imaging/soundstage performance will suffer. The ratio of the direct sound from the speakers vs. the reflected sound from the room will also have an effect on the quality of the imaging, especially if one side is different than the other. Excellent imaging and soundstage performance is easier to achieve when you eliminate or mitigate most of the room's acoustic interactions and influence on the sound that you hear from the loudspeakers, and is the primary reason that the majority of recording, mixing, and mastering engineers generally use "nearfield" studio monitors while producing the music that we all listen to. Listening to speakers that were designed to be precisely matched to each other in regards to frequency response and dispersion, as well as listening to them in a nearfield environment provides for the most accurate reproduction of the imaging and soundstage in the recording, NOT speaker cables! This is another reason why even relatively inexpensive earbuds or headphones usually do a good job of providing good Left-to-Right imaging and focus. However, they usually lack some of the crosstalk and HRTF/head-shadowing imaging cues we hear when listening to loudspeakers in a typical room which are time-arrival based (ITD) and help to provide a perception of Depth and "Room Ambiance" or the size of the performance venue. Swapping speaker cables has NO affect on ANY of these properties. If for some reason you do have poorly designed speaker cables that alter the frequency response of the speakers due to excessive resistance, capacitance, inductance, etc, when you switch to a different pair of speakers cables that do not have this issue, even though the overall FR might be slightly different between each set of cables, BOTH speakers will STILL BE MATCHED to each other because you are using the same SET of cables for both speakers. And in reality, moving your head just 12" up/down/left/right from the MLP has far more potential to change the response and imaging/soundstage performance compared to any differences another set of speaker cables will make!
As a Communications engineer on Doppler systems on aircraft. It horrifies me so see how people actually believe they can hear such a difference with cables. From a scientific point of view it’s snake oil.
This know-nothing audiohead has made and used, 12-14 gauge pure stranded copper wire since the vinyl bug bit some 50 years ago...SFSG. I'm still using them, the only thing I've done is make them shorter and replace the connectors, twice.
Thanks for your "tongue in cheek comment". I was not aware until after the video posted, but in their owner's manuals (60's and 70's, I believe)McIntosh listed the length and gauge of wire that should be used to connect their amps with speaker, and I don't think they ever went as high as 12gauge.....
Nicely done Scott. 40 year electronics technician on this end. The results were, as expected of any listening test, very close to guesswork, which tells us they were trying to please you, not hearing actual differences. But hey... it's just wire, what did they expect? A few years ago my little audio group did a test... we put up a bedsheet to hide the system and gathered the group for a "Mystery A/B test" we asked them only to note any differences they heard and which they preferred ... nobody knew what was being tested. We played short clips on A then repeated them on B ... with half a dozen clips. The total test time was about an hour since we didn't want to wear out their patience. It went like this... clip plays ... behind the curtains we very quickly made our change... clip plays again. People make their notes. Then the next clip... The final vote was down to almost a tie between A and B with nobody noting "same". But here's the thing... We didn't change anything. My buddy and I got behind the curtain, made some hushed chatter, moved the curtain a bit with our arms and butts... then played the next clip. The resulting discussion pretty much put an end to that group's long debates about cables and sound quality.
Pretty interesting experiment and somewhat predicable results to a certain extent. I do hide things as best I can by covering the cables up so you don't know what is B or C in my case. I appreciate you sharing this!
@@vintageaudioreviewIf you are interested in facts you may want to try that same thoughts process with MIT ACC268 speaker cable consoles. This will show how lacking in knowledge and know how of doing almost ALL ARE.
@@davidcross890 Not exactly ... the system behind the curtains was a $15,000 setup, owned by one of the group's members and, in any case, we were looking for differences not qualitative analysis.
I did a demo with a guy that said cables don't make a difference, I played one tune with the cables connected and the the second tune with them dis connected. There was a night and day difference....
I bought my first good system from an audiophile store that opened up across the street from the restaurant I was the chef at the time. We fed the guys after hours a few times as they were getting open so we had a good relationship. I don't think I paid much more than cost for the little system I bought from them. One day a big-money buyer was auditioning some Wilson speakers and switching between Nordost and Transparent cables. Both cost exponentially more than my 2 channel system. One of the owners turned to me in the other room and said it didn't really matter because both were just a tax on the gullible. They all used DIY stuff in their own homes and had settled on the fact that you can't convince someone buying $45K speakers that $50 cables will essentially sound the same as $5000 cables.
Thanks so much for sharing your story and I like calling them a "tax on the gullible". As I said in the video, the cables look cool and you can spend your $$'s however you want, but when you tell me they are going to sound better I am going to be doubtful.
Nice to have a gathering of like-minded people. I've been experimenting with cables for 50 years and end up with about these results, but it's exciting to try. As for signal cables, then I have other experiences. Thank you for your dedication
I cant believe how many tone deaf followers there are. Im sure these people also could not tell the difference between milk and orange juice in a blind taste test.
I don’t think so. Maybe with speaker cables but with interconnects, you can definitely hear differences. Now whether or not those differences mean more expensive or if those differences matter enough to spend the extra $$$, that’s something every audiophile will have to figure out with their own ears.
I have a quite nice new Mcintosh / Sonus Faber system. I just couldn’t bring myself to spend a bunch more money on cables. I went to the car stereo shop down the street and said I wanted their best cable.. They sold me 40 feet of 10 gauge for $40 and said they’ve tried more expensive a few times and could never hear a difference.
Hey! I like that you did this test. The underlying issue you were testing is if an 8K cable sounds much better than a DIY home made cable. Note that while you did see a measurable difference between the two, you discounted it because it could be within the 'noise' or testing error. But in your test, there are a couple of issues. The biggest is that you only set up a single speaker for the test rather than create a stereo image. Of all of the people talking about the coloration of the music depending on amp, DAC or other hardware of the speaker... they also claim that the cables can also add to this. That there may be subtle differences with the overall sound image based on the cable. (e.g. sound stage, separation, focus... etc ...) So unless you ran two speakers ... you lose that. Overall, I would argue against spending $$$$ on cables, but I'd also argue about going too cheap. OFC is a must. Then there's the gauge and shielding of the cable wires, and your connectors. I suggest that you look at the retail cost of your components. Depending on length and quality of cable... you can spend up to $300.00 to make high quality stereo cables. But $300.00 is much less than $8K which would be better spent on other components to give you a better sound. Even in my small room, my cables are ~20ft in length because I have to run them behind cabinets and out of sight. (Hence the higher cost) Just my $0.02.
Thanks so much for taking the time to comment- with reasonable ones. I get your take on using two speakers for the "separation", but I don't believe there is any scientific basis for such a claim. Both speaker cables, assuming the lengths are pretty close to the same, would effect the signal the same amount. My a/b switching box does not have enough inputs and outputs to allow for a stereo testing of the cables is another reason I did not do that. I am pretty sure I went over the cost of what I used on my cables, and I screwed up by using copper clad aluminum wire instead of OFC wire, which made the point even better according to many of the comments. So far the cables that I made have been holding up well...
@@vintageaudioreview Hi, scientifically speaking, you already tested the cable which showed a measurable difference, albeit a small one. And that's key. 8K vs ~$100.00 (rounding up) That's $7,900 that could go towards better speakers, amp, dac, etc... which will impact your sound. The point of the A/B testing isn't scientific but more subjective and its the imaging of the sound that may be noticeable. Oh and I'm not saying there was anything wrong with what you made. When you go to source your wire, you're limited to what's available in your local brick/mortar store... in terms of quality and wire gauge. If you're looking at 10-12ft or less, you could go w 14AWG and longer 12AWG. If you go online, you can get better wire if you want. If you look at some of the RUclips videos, you'll see people using Magomi ?sp? 4 wire cable and then pairing them. So 2 12 AWG would give you 10AWG. Then on to better banana plugs and you've got really good cables. Overall, I would encourage people to make their own cables and avoid the 'snake oil' stuff.
@@michaelsegel8758 How about considering a/b testing as a scientific way of doing subjective testing 😄 There are certainly some good videos on RUclips making your own cables. If you find some McIntosh owner's manuals from the 70's, they often tell you what gauge "zipcord" you should use to connect your amp to your speakers depending on how far away they are. 12 gauge OFC speaker wire is going to work well for darn near everyone- The idea of using Magomi 4 wire cable is probably fine and might be a fun project, I suppose.
I have the KEF R5 Metas and did an A/B on my system between Blue Jeans and Kimber Kable. I did notice a difference even using a Denon AVR. The Kimber sounded 'crisper' and the highs were cleaner whereas to me, the Blue Jeans sounded more like is forwarding mostly mid-range. But that's me.
Thanks for taking the time to comment, though I am skeptical about most cables making any difference, but as long as you are happy with your choice, that is what is most important.
@GermanRedrum The KEF R5 META are great speakers. 👍 In your comment above, you said that you "did an A/B on my system between Blue Jeans and Kimber Kable." Was that "A/B" comparison 100% un-sighted (i.e. "BLIND"), meaning that you never had any idea which cable was being used at any given time during the A/B listening test? And if so, did you consistently choose cable "A" vs cable "B", or vice versus, at least 9 out of 10 times in a row?
I've always know that there would be no difference, but you will still get people say you can not measure the audile difference of the more expensive cable. $8k will get you a nice audio system and a 65 inch Tv. 😉
My little system (small but not limited) came in just under $1,500 with a 50 inch TV, NUC configured as an HTPC, 4tb of storage, UGreen DAC, Fosi TB10D amp and Pioneer tower speakers. A little tinkering with part values and some polyfil and voila decent system that will last for many years. Beyond that lies the dreaded world of diminishing returns. One of the local efetes got wind of what I am using and spent quite the effort running me into the ground about it. Cost me a few customers, too. So finally I ends up nose to nose with hiim: "You think my system is trash? Why don't you come over and actually listen to it before you dump on it..." He came, he listened, he went silent, he left and I haven't heard from him or about him since. The truth of the matter is that cheap audio is getting better and better audio is getting cheaper all the time.
@@vintageaudioreview A lot of progress in Class D has happened recently. With the introduction of the TPA32xx series chips TI has pretty much revolutionized it. These chips can be found in powered studio monitors, sound reinforcement, public address, high end home theatre... and, yes, even in high end stereo gear. The ICE Power modules everyone rages about started with TPA3251 chips for the 50w/ch and TPA3255 for the 100w/ch units. The higher power ones are, of course designed with discrete components. Then there are the Purifi and Hypex modules everyone rages about. The Chinese versions of these amplifiers are basically stripped down versions of the more feature laden (read "expensive") versions you find elsewhere. The smaller sizes are possible by moving the power supply outside the chassis and the relatively small number of parts needed to make the chip happy. Miniaturization at it's finest. As long as they're not using fake or underrated parts, they're no less capable than the "big boy" versions you find in other equipment. The thing is the Chinese manufacturers are still learning how to use these chips to advantage. For example: I recently did a "deep dive" examination on the Fosi TB10D amplifier. Nice compact unit with tone controls. There were a couple of minor problems with overvoltage on the reset pin (easily fixed) and they had placed the output coils right against the heat sink, causing all kinds of bizarre eddy current problems. I pulled out my hacksaw and took one fin off the heatsink to create some space between it and the coils. The result... one sweet sounding amplifier that mostly runs at room temperature on 36 volts, producing 60w/ch RMS on 8 ohms with a flat response from 5hz to 25khz and distortion below the 0.01% threshold of my current test equipment at 99% output power. That's better than about 80% of the stuff these big huffy audiophiles are using. Of course the big advantage is that it, along with my HTPC, hard drive, DAC and their assorted power bricks fit nicely into a vacant drawer cavity in my TV stand. So what's not to like?
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Have only listened toto the little Aiyma amps, but they sound just fine to me and a few others that have heard them...most likely will be the subject of another a/b test....
Nice video! And the crazy part is, the Transparent Audio speaker cable that you tested is one of their more "affordable" lines. Transparent Audio's top of the line speaker cable costs $77k a pair and I have heard it still made out of copper. You would think for that kind of money it would be dipped in gold! A fool and his money...
Goldplating isn't that expensive, for that money it could be a fully gold wire, but even better would be a fully silver wire, as silver has the best conductivity. Gold is used for goldplating since it doesn't oxidize, but making full wire of gold isn't as beneficial. Long time ago I used a thin coax cable made of silver to be able to carry long distances.
Thanks for taking the time to comment and you are correct for the most part- some audiophiles do see the advantage of equalizers as part of DSP that may be in their streamer...
My approach is to let people hear both low cost and higher priced cables and let them decide if they think that the audible differences are worth what is being asked for them. My policy is that if they can get a bigger improvement in musical enjoyment by investing less, then that is the way they should go. Surely the buyer decides based on what they hear and feel, and what they want to spend. Any expensive product, such as a sports car is often bought because it brings enjoyment, not because it measures better.
*Sorry, but this test was flawed.* And I am actually surprised that none of the participants pointed this out. By listening to only 1 speaker, and not a pair, you are missing/ignoring a huge aspect of sound reproduction, and that is of course, the reproduction of spatial cues. Which contributes to soundstage width and depth, the ambience of the acoustic space the recording was made in. Imaging of the musicians within that acoustic space, the layering of the soundstage, etc. The human auditory system is capable of hearing interaural time differences as low as 7-10 microseconds. This is an evolved survival tool; our ancestors needed to know where (distance, direction, height, etc) in space a noise in the forest was coming from, to determine if it was a threat or food, for example. Obviously We leverage this aspect of our auditory system: to hear a soundstage, the ambience of the acoustic space where the musicians were playing, the location of the musicians within that soundstage, etc. Let me state that I took part in a double blind test about 4-5 years ago comparing speaker cables, and I was able to consistently pick out 1 over the other. The cheapest cable we compared were a pair of $100 Blue Jeans cables, and the most expensive, a pair of $4,000 Purist Audio. The way I was able to pick out 1 cable over the other, was by listening to the soundstage size and depth, the specificity of the musicians within the soundstage, and other spatial cues. Better speaker cables are better at keeping those very tiny (7-10 microseconds) time intact. I could add, which I may later, the reason why some cables are better at retaining these spatial cues than others.
Thanks for taking a lot of time to express your thoughts and the idea of using just one speaker and the spatial cues, was addressed pretty well by @douglas_blake_579 somewhere amongst the multitude of comments for this video.
@@pandstar I am going to copy and past his comment here for you from 2weeks ago: Since the topic of Subjective testing in stereo keeps coming up... (This is a re-post of one of my comments under another video) === 1) Why you cannot subjectively evaluate any part of an audio system. (Don't even think about arguing with me until you try this simple experiment.) Take any stereo setup in any room, no matter how good or bad, then play monophonic pink noise through the speakers, at a "conversational level" ... Find the spot where the sound is directly straight in front of you. Now, slowly move your head about 3 inches left or right of that ideal centre position... What did you hear? When you moved off of the dead centre between the speakers, you heard the sound get a little brighter and a bit louder; what an audiophile would describe as "presence". As you moved further from centre by the first tiny bit, if you went left, the apparent sound source went right, then as you move further it will suddenly jump to the left; "soundstage". Then if you continue by moving your speakers, you will notice, the further apart your speakers are, or the closer you sit to them, the worse this gets. This is a phenomenon known as "Mid-Field Cancellation" and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. It is caused by the difference in distance from you left speaker to your left ear and to your right ear. Of course this also happens with the right speaker, as well. At about 1600 to 2200hz, depending on the size of your head, the sound in the far ear is behind that in the near one, it is late and it's out of phase... and it cancels. Now we know that a move of just an inch or so off of perfect centre changes what you hear. The question is, how often, when evaluating a new speaker, cable, device... have you plopped your butt back down into your chair an inch off from your previous listening position only to judge the new wateveryacallit as being "more open and present with a better soundstage"? What are you actually judging... the device or your current listening position? 2) Why you cannot subjectively judge tonal balance: (And again ... don't even bother disagreeing until you try this) Play a monophonic tone at about 10khz from both your speakers. This will be very piercing so keep the volume down. Now slowly rock your head a little bit toward one speaker then the other. What do you hear? Yep, you heard the tone get louder and quieter as you moved. You probably also noticed that it's left-right balance shifted cyclically as you moved, first favouring the near side then the far side. This is "Treble Cancellation" and it is caused by differences in the distance between your head and the speakers. At 10khz the in-room wavelength is about 1.3 inches or 3.3cm ... a move of just half that much will actually put your tweeters out of phase at your ears causing a dip in level and a shift in direction. Again... even the slightest shift in listening positions will change your perception of the sound. 3) The BIG question.... Now ask how many millions of dollars have been spent because of these simple facts of life? Measurements would have confirmed these simple differences are or are not real. === Both measurement and listening tests should be used together.
The switch box and short home made cables would have to be eliminated, and your system would have to be a much higher resolution set up to be able to hear any difference, and your room would likely have to be treated to absorb reflections, and would need ideal placement of high end speakers. Because until you can hear things like soundstage, image front back and sides, separation of instruments, ect. you will not hear a difference between wire. THATS what the higher grade wires are all about. Myself I use different brands, always a high quality oxygen free copper. Stay away from anything Chinese, that stuff uses wire that came from a melting pot of different metals, whatever they could find in scrap. They make it look nice though.
Thanks for your thoughts on this issue, but I respectully disagree with you except for the OFC copper should be used. But but accident, the 12gauge wire I used for this test was copper covered aluminum, and still no difference in sound or measurements. After this video was posted I saw an excellent video from Audioholics where they measured some speaker cables and there is very little difference between the expensive ones and the regular wire. If there is no electrical difference I can't see how they can sound different... I can't get rid of the switch box or small cables and do an a/b test where you can switch between things immediately, which you need to do as our audio memory is not that good for trying to hear such small difference. I have another cable test video tomorrow....
Why are you not measuring these when hooked up to a speaker and amplifier? The resistance will affect the relationship of speaker with amplifier. Especially if you have a speaker with a wild impedance sweep and an amplifier with a crazy low output impedance (.000065) / super high damping factor (123,076 @ 8 ohms) like a Purifi Eigentakt.
Thanks for taking the time to comment/question. The Purifii amp you mention with such a high damping factor (doubt that is real), would care very little about the speaker cable unless it is was really high. I just looked at something simple like the frequency response and whether there was any distortion introduced, of which there was none. Did not bother to measure the resistance as it would be much less than my meter is capable of measuring, maybe 0.1ohm. Damping factor is difficult to measure when it is very high.
Thanks for your comment and I am glad that you like your cables, but saying they provide warmer sound would be something that would go against what I experienced in this video with the cables that I tested and used.
Not really. My comment refers to Kimber and MIT. Your video refers to Transparent and your own creation. Both things could be true. @@vintageaudioreview
Yes Kimber can sound bright which is why I preferred Audioquest. To me MIT cables are too warm sounding. These days people seem to like the Shinyata cables which I haven't yet heard in my system.
Agree with the analysis, but I do hear differences with different interconnect cables. It’s noticeable when comparing a twisted pair configuration with a floating ground(long-time established protocol for recording studios), compared to a pair with the ground connected at both ends.
Thaks for sharing. I think you are talking about using a balanced cable vs an unbalanced interconnect cable. The balanced approach is used to help eliminate noise- important for a recording studio. If there was no noise on the unbalanced cable I doubt you would hear any difference- kinda hard to test, I would think, since the preamp may use a slightly different circuit to drive the xlr cable than the unbalanced cable....
@@vintageaudioreview Nope, this is using Mogami 2549 microphone cable in a single-ended application, for a typical 2-channel system. One wire hot, one wire return, with the shield connected only at the source and “floating” at the other end. This connection methodology also prevents ground loops. In this configuration, the sound is very transparent and open. When the shield is connected at both ends, the sound is darker and closed-in. I get the same results with Canare L-2T2S microphone cable. A 3-ft. pair of these cables with Rean Neutric connectors will run less than $15-$18 and will smoke anything up to $500/pair.
@@ChicagoRob2 Show these are your "rca" interconnect cables then ? Interesting about only grounding the shield at one end working better. It would be interesting to a/b them with a standard rca cable...I will have to check into this a little more as it would be nice to have the exact length of cable to connect gear....
Ground loop problems can be quite complex. It is entirely possible that lifting the ground on an unbalanced interconnect reduces noise or hum IN YOUR SYSTEM as the ground current is flowing in another path. Or it could make the problem worse and usually does with unbalanced systems. What you are testing is not one cable compared to another. You are modifying the electrical current paths in your system. You can't compare a modified balanced interconnect with an unbalanced. Apples and oranges. I think I understand what you are doing. Using shielded pair cable, with the pairs as the hot and ground and only connecting the shield to the ground at one end versus an unbalanced cable. But you have to keep in mind your topology has more resistance and inductance in the ground path than the 2 conductor shielded cable does do the mass of the metal. So yes, there could be an audible difference with hum and low level noise. But that has nothing to do with cable quality.
@@ChicagoRob2 If you have one wire connected as the "return" which on a single ended cable is ground... your fancy "shield at one end" trick *will not* prevent ground loops. In fact it could make things worse as the unterminated length of shield can act as an antenna, picking up all kinds of RF interference.
4K for ten feet? That distance isn't long enough to need anything fancy. That 4K would be better spent on high quality speakers so you can actually hear something different. Glad to see people testing blind and actually testing the harmonic distortion instead of just believing hype from a company.
Thanks so much for appreciating my little attempt at doing both an a/b test and the measurements portion as well. It was not perfect, but sure has touched an audio nerve.
At a show a million $ system switch between Home Depo 14ga extension cord and several Uber high end ones the majority of listeners thought the HD cable sounded better.
Which show was this? Here's a better test: I was at a local high end shop and we swapped between cables from a higher-end cable to a mid-line cable. Instantly two 21 year-olds in the back of the store looking at budget gear asked what we did because the sound stage went away.
@@VideoArchiveGuy So maybe if you are 21 and your hearing is really, really good and you have the money to spend on very expensive cables and you hear a difference, go for it.
@@vintageaudioreview It's not about being 21, it's about the level of your system and whether those changes are important to you. For example, if you have a highly resolving system, and an additional $10,000 spent on speaker cables better resolves the space in which the original recording was made, is that worth it to you? I'm not talking a modern "every member of the band sent in their part from home" recording, I'm talking about a 1963 recording with Frank Sinatra being recorded in a studio with the orchestra right there. Is the fact that a speaker cable upgrade allows you to resolve the size of the studio involved rather than Frank just being a voice in space worth the money to you? For some it's everything, for others it isn't worth $10 more.
@@VideoArchiveGuy The system issue has been brought up in a few of the comments. What is a highly resolving system? Who determines the min. equip list? And what about your room and your hearing ability ?
Actually, the owner of the cables got them with a lot of other things and does not have his nose in the clouds. Most of the audio friends I have would never purchase a cable that expensive and are do not snotty. Thanks for the comment
Well put. Most of my audio friends are not rich, but have gotten really good deals on gear before it became more difficult in recent years. The other week I was helping an "audio friend" out and asked him if he had some wire strippers and he handed me some scissors....
_" Audiophiles are sometimes rich people who know nothing about technology,"_ And the rest tend to be middle-class people who know nothing about technology. Some time ago I helped an audiophile's widow clear out the sound room. This got her nearly $10,000 to put in the bank. They both lived on Canada's senior's pensions for years!
@@Douglas_Blake_579 The majority of audiophiles I know are middle class with their "knowledge" coming from reading/watching reviews and some experimentation of things on their own over the years....Thanks again for all of the commentary 😀
@@vintageaudioreview Unfortunately a lot of that 'knowledge" (appropriately in quotes) comes from the webpages of these shyster companies who prey upon their gullibility. It is amazing how much so-called science I see that exists only in the audiophile realm... and at odds with well established understandings beyond that. One of life's harder lessons: "The ones who know the least are the easiest to lie to." I constantly urge anyone getting into audio gear for any other reason than listening to music or movies to take the time to learn some basic electronics skills. Not saying they need to become techs or engineers, but they should at least know how to read and interpret specs and graphs as well as troubleshooting simple problems. I see the necessity of it every time I lift off the covers on some piece of gear and note the blank stares on their faces.
I never understood these type of comparisons. Cables do sound different from each other regardless of what is on a scope. Capacitance is the biggest factor as well as the quality of materials. You choose cables based on the character of the hardware you are using and what direction you want to go sonically.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I guess, it's just tubes, it's just a cartridge, just a turntable, etc. If the cables don't matter that much to the sound , then none of it does.
I can tell the value of audio equipment just by looking at the price tag. Seriously. The more expensive it is, the more amazing it sounds. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. ;-)
I appreciate the comment, though I and many others would disagree with you, as would most of the science. But people can spend the money on whatever floats their boat, I suppose.
@@lepidoptera9337 Ok, I am at my PC working on my next video and at 1st thought it was sarcasm, but then I didn't. Earlier this week I had a similar comment on the RCA cable test video, but I caught that one. But I know people (audio folks) that do think the more expensive it is, the better- at least to a point. Thanks again for the humorous comment!
@@vintageaudioreview There is so much nonsense on the internet that it drowns out even attempts at humor, doesn't it? The sad part is that there is actually very good audio equipment at very reasonable price points nowadays. All this "high end" stuff does, at the end of the day, only get in the way of the music. Peace!
I replaced OFC home made cable with a pair of mini coaxial cable, around .67 a foot, with soldered on banana plugs. I heard a difference, and had to adjust the tone controls accordingly on music I am very familiar with. I asked this question at several sites, why? And I was quickly called every name in the book for even suggesting there was a sound difference, all in my head, blah, blah, blah. I'm still using them, they did not break the bank and work. My thinking, it was the lower impedence of the Mogami coaxial wire. Mogami does publish this data. Flame suit on.
Infairness your analysis is probably spot on - I have always found a difference but with the caveat that it is system dependent - but even on my dads fairly low end Cambridge EVO 75 running into Monitor Audio Bronze - we both heard a difference going to decent QED cable - now if we were to upgrade this to something fancy, expensive and esoteric I would doubt it would do anything dramatic - props to you for sharing
Exactly which cable did you use? If it was something like Mogami W2 series, I'm betting you had to turn up the bass quite a bit... because the inner conductors in those cables are very thin and generally can't handle speaker currents at bass frequencies. Effectively you are wiring your speakers up with either 22 or 24 ga wire.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Yes of course I was referring to upgrades or changes - they are so system dependent - so I think we can agree on that - I used to sell high end hi-fi and for instance Naim cable was a good all rounder - I can't think of a good Cambridge, Rotel, Yamaha, NAD system where it didn't work well enough - but upgrades to higher end systems rlike Krell, Audio Research, revealed that changing only the speaker cable worked a treat - but not all times - occasionally it made things sound worse
New to your channel. Thanks for performing this type of test. I've been saying to anyone who would listen, a channel that does thus kind if "blind A/B" test would be so welcome to the hobby. I'm not a cable denier, but I've been skeptical of people who make claims about being able to hear the difference between X & Y components, but not un a truly blind test. I look forward to more blind test results. 👍
Thanks for the comment and hope you stick with the channel. I only do a/b tests every now and then- mainly as an excuse to get together with audio buddies. We are planning another for the 1st of the year...
If you can't hear the difference between X & Y components in a system or the difference between X & Y speaker cables, I suggest you save your money & try a different hobby Sir
@@stLtBilko Thanks for the comment, but I am not sure what you are driving at. I am a gear guy who has decent hearing. If I can't hear the benefit of an expensive component, then why spend the $$, unless there is some aesthetic value to it for me. I could spend the money on something else that may not have the sound quality of say a streaming device, but boy, it would be nice to own it- in this case I am thing about a Nakamichi Dragon- which is the part of the hobby I enjoy.
I have seen this type of cable test multiple times since the 70's. When set up properly, almost always no difference. A few times the fancy, expensive cables actually sounded worse, usually because of some "magic tech" add on component to the cables. And of course, there are the stories of what Monster Cable use to do at shows, using regular cables behind the scene for the actual hook ups!
@@vintageaudioreview Okay ... two quick stories for you. 1) I was called in to service a "Monster" demo unit in a local hifi shop. The "standard cable" side of the switch had stopped working. I noticed it was connected with about 50 feet of coiled up telephone wire (26ga), so I did what any competent tech would do and replaced it with about 6 inches of proper 16ga hookup wire. Their sales of Monster cables tanked... 2) At a Canadian audiofest I attended a demonstration of "AQ" cables and like everyone else I heard the stunning difference between the "standard" RCA cable and the AQ one. After the demo the salesmaker left his stand unattended as he milled though the crowd taking orders. I went behind the stand, spotted an equalizer hooked into the system... put it on top of the stand for all to see... and the place exploded into a near riot when people realized what had been done to them. Needless to say I was actively invited to never return to that show again.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Without trying to sound big headed, I sold all my rca's a few years back except a pair of pure audio one's I still use to play vintage stuff with, it's all about the nas, ethernet cable & amp for me, I still chuckle when I see ads for this or that's latest incarnations of their interconnect rca cables
I use to own a 8 gauge Monster cable until a friend went to my house with a Transparent Wave which is the most cheap of them 400 hundred for the pair, next day I bought one because I would not be happy with the Monster, difference in cables cannot be measure, the definition is not measurable, if you didn't hear the difference your wallet will be happier
Well I'm not suprised; no mentioning of cable lifters, nor whether the cables were burned in,-and how long that took-, and no mentioning of any participating certified trained listeners.
Scientific listening tests require a control (reference) which for cables involves the elimination of the cable. The requirements achieving anything other than a null result in testing for fine audio differences are detailed in 'Recommendation ITU-R BS.1116-3 Methods for the subjective assessment of small impairments in audio systems.' Anyone familiar with the science of listening tests would know that the severely compromised testing procedure used for this test will always produce a null result. When the appropriate procedures are followed, the impairments caused by speaker cables are indeed detectable in double-blind tests.
I really appreciate your commenting in an intelligent manner. This was by no means a perfect test and I am aware of some of the problems with- most have been pointed out in the comments on this video. This was a gathering of "audio guys" and we like to do something other than just sit (stand) around and eat and drink and talk about audio stuff. Everyone likes doing this testing and I am planning another for Jan. The one thing that no-one, other than myself, has brought up is how good is your hearing? I will look at the spec you mentioned and am curious if it requires a hearing test or a listening training such as the Harmon's "How to Listen"- thanks for that info, though. And what sample size do you need ? And what about room acoustics? Based on the comments- right or wrong- it seems like the majority of folks don't feel really expensive cables are going to make a difference. If a way can be found to switch cables in
Well, there is a comment here somewhere about an audio store that put out a video trying to show the difference in cables for what that is worth, but no a/b, abx testing. Thanks again for commenting
@@VideoArchiveGuy thats the issue. "Just listening" is prone to a lot of bias and brain tricks. "Blind testing" involves just listening with an experiment design to remove biases.
I see this has ignited the usual "my system is better than your system" kind of debate that every technician and engineer dreads .... So let me just give you all a couple of simple things to think about... Why mono instead of stereo? ... Two word answer: Phase Cancellation. By the time you get into the higher frequencies, about 10khz and up, what is called the "brilliance" or "presence" range, the wavelength of the audio signals in air is less than 1.5 inches... this means that any error in distance from the listening position to the stereo speakers of more than 1/4 inch could result in the tweeters being increasingly out of phase at the listening position. Moreover, simply moving your head 3/4 inch either side of the perfect equal distance can result in significant reductions (or increases) of perceived high pitch sounds. With a monophonic test, this doesn't happen. Then there's the problem nobody can fix... Mid Field Cancellation The audio wavelength in the range between 1.5 and 2.5 khz corresponds to the width of most people's heads. In a stereo system we hear both speakers with both ears and we take directional clues from the difference in amplitude, phase and arrival time at our ears, dominantly in this mid-vocal range of the spectrum. So... with a pair of small speakers, set up a near field listening test... speakers about 3 feet away, equal distance and angle from the listening position. Now play a 2khz monophonic test tone at a low-medium level through both speakers. Find the spot where the sound appears to be dead centered between the speakers... now move your head about an inch either side of that perfect point... you will hear the loudness of the tone increase and it will seem to move toward one of the speakers. Move the other way and it happens with the other speaker. Now repeat the same test with white noise... when you move even an inch or so the entire tonal quality of that noise will change very noticeably, becoming brighter and more present. This issue cannot be fixed. It is cancellation caused by the distance between your ears and the arrival time of the signals from the speakers at each of your ears. Of course, with a monophonic test this is also not an issue. So, now we know why most stereo listening tests are a simple waste of time. Unless you are rigidly positioned between two speakers at exactly equal distances and angles, the results will change every time you move your head. Now for the interesting question .... how close is your home setup to this ideal... equal distance, equal angles from the listening position. Yes, even 1/4 of an inch matters... Then ask yourself if you always sit in the perfect position...
Thanks for taking the time to expound upon this point. I wish I could take credit for setting up a mono test for the reasons you mentioned, but it was mainly because that is the only way it can be done with my a/b switcher. Imaging/soundstage is determined more by room acoustics, the speakers and your place in the room as you pointed out.....
@@vintageaudioreview No worries .... it's kinda fun. Imaging and soundstage actually come from the recorded material, not any part of your playback system. It is impossible to create when none exists... However; it is possible, and even easy to sabotage the one you got in the recording. Simple matters such as imperfect speaker positioning and even sitting position in the room can degrade the perception of it significantly.
@@vintageaudioreview As a special effect, maybe ... I can do the same in software on my system. But if you listen closely it comes at the expense of other sound qualities that might be more important to our enjoyment. Still, if it pleases you... why not?
It does alter the FR a bit from what I have measured, but the effect can be pretty impressive at times, and I do like it so why not....that is part of the hobby.
Since the topic of Subjective testing in stereo keeps coming up... (This is a re-post of one of my comments under another video) === 1) Why you cannot subjectively evaluate any part of an audio system. (Don't even think about arguing with me until you try this simple experiment.) Take any stereo setup in any room, no matter how good or bad, then play monophonic pink noise through the speakers, at a "conversational level" ... Find the spot where the sound is directly straight in front of you. Now, slowly move your head about 3 inches left or right of that ideal centre position... What did you hear? When you moved off of the dead centre between the speakers, you heard the sound get a little brighter and a bit louder; what an audiophile would describe as "presence". As you moved further from centre by the first tiny bit, if you went left, the apparent sound source went right, then as you move further it will suddenly jump to the left; "soundstage". Then if you continue by moving your speakers, you will notice, the further apart your speakers are, or the closer you sit to them, the worse this gets. This is a phenomenon known as "Mid-Field Cancellation" and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. It is caused by the difference in distance from you left speaker to your left ear and to your right ear. Of course this also happens with the right speaker, as well. At about 1600 to 2200hz, depending on the size of your head, the sound in the far ear is behind that in the near one, it is late and it's out of phase... and it cancels. Now we know that a move of just an inch or so off of perfect centre changes what you hear. The question is, how often, when evaluating a new speaker, cable, device... have you plopped your butt back down into your chair an inch off from your previous listening position only to judge the new wateveryacallit as being "more open and present with a better soundstage"? What are you actually judging... the device or your current listening position? 2) Why you cannot subjectively judge tonal balance: (And again ... don't even bother disagreeing until you try this) Play a monophonic tone at about 10khz from both your speakers. This will be very piercing so keep the volume down. Now slowly rock your head a little bit toward one speaker then the other. What do you hear? Yep, you heard the tone get louder and quieter as you moved. You probably also noticed that it's left-right balance shifted cyclically as you moved, first favouring the near side then the far side. This is "Treble Cancellation" and it is caused by differences in the distance between your head and the speakers. At 10khz the in-room wavelength is about 1.3 inches or 3.3cm ... a move of just half that much will actually put your tweeters out of phase at your ears causing a dip in level and a shift in direction. Again... even the slightest shift in listening positions will change your perception of the sound. 3) The BIG question.... Now ask how many millions of dollars have been spent because of these simple facts of life? Measurements would have confirmed these simple differences are or are not real. === Both measurement and listening tests should be used together.
Well put once again, Professor. Having the a/b switching done by the remote controlled switch does help in eliminanting changing the user's head position to a certain extent, but even that is not perfect.....
@@Douglas_Blake_579 To be honest, that was mainly due to the limitations of my switch box plus I was looking for tonal differences and not concerned about anything else that would have been hard to hear.....
I have additional tools to test cables. As we put it, we test from DC to daylight in the spectrum. We measure dielectric absorption, resistance, impedance, inductance, and capacitance per foot, and dielectric breakdown votage. In genera, the DC resistance is the most important factor, so the shorter the better. As most speaker cable is not even close to the impedance of the speaker, any speaker cable of any significant length is mostly affected by Inductance per foot as the speakers are much lower impedance than the cable. In professi0onal audio, this issue is dealt with by using balanced line level signals to the mostly powered speakers. This results in the length of wire between the amplifier in the speaker to the drivers is under 3 deet in most cases. Large crossover components are eliminated and replaced by active crossovers into a bi-amp configuration. For effeciency the bass is handled by class D amplifiers, and the upper frequencies by a lower power class AB amplifier. In many professional sound systems, instead of sending analog balanced line levels to the powered speakers, the connection is digital from the console using either AES2, Waves, or Dante interfaces. This eliminates all analog noise sources in the sound distribution from the console to the speaker arrays. Why are guitars still using high impedance pickups in the days of low impedance balanced sound? That ancient artifact needs to go. If you have a bench power supply that can provide 10 amps or more, you can do low resistance measurements yourself on the cables. Send for example 10 amps regulated into a shorted cable, and then measure the voltage due to resistance. EG a 10 amp current into a 10 foot cable and has a voltage of 20mV would equate to 2 miliohms.
Really? Applying RF feedline standards to a low frequency cable that is only a tiny fraction of the wavelength of the signal? Lets do the math ... The speed of light is about 299,792.458 kilometres per second. Electricty travels through copper at about 96% of the speed of light (VF = 0.96) This gives us a velocity of ... 299,782.458 x 0.96 == 287,791.159 kilometers per second. Wavelength = velocity / frequency, so... at 20khz... 287,791.159 / 20,000 == 14.389 Kilometres ... that's 8.941 MILES. The first resonant point in a feedline is at 1/4 wavelength so... 14.389 / 4 = 3.597 Kilometres or 2.235 MILES. Now most of us don't run 2 mile speaker wires... so below that feedline impedance, dielectric, inductive and reactive components will have a negligible.... likely unmeasurable effect on the sound quality of a system. What matters is resistance ... which as you pointed out is in milliohms (1/1,000 of an ohm) for all but the most drastically under sized wire. So lets look at good old 16ga lamp wire ... rated by UL and CSA at 4 ohms per 1,000 feet. A 10 foot speaker wire made up of 16 ga wire actually has 20 feet of wire in it. So we have (4 x 20) / 1000 == 0.08 ohms (80 milliohms) of resistance. Compared to a 4 ohm speaker that gives us an impedance ratio (damping factor) of... 4 / 0.08 == 50. which is totally acceptable.
Really nice comment here! I have very little experience with guitars and the associated equipment. Your idea with a 10amp p/s is good, but a milliohmeter would accomplish the same thing- I don't have one... though I would like too. Thanks for the commentary!
@@Douglas_Blake_579 All the facts about the speed of light is absolutely true. However, the impedance mismatch means that a low impedance load on a higher impedance cable results in the cable being inductive. When a high impedance source is applied to a much lower impedance cable the result is capacative loading, even at fractions of a wavelength. Your assumption in the velocity factor in wire is incorrect when an insulator on the wire changes the capacitance per foot. This is referred to the velocity factor. You will find most polyvynil plastic dielectric produces a velocity factor closer to 60% and not the claimed 96%. It is true the effects at lengths under 100 feet is negligible except for the resistance, but this is a bunch of Audiophiles where any measurable difference in cable is worth $14,000 in price for the cable. This is the level of difference they claim they can hear. I emphasize the word claim. Just an FYI, High voltage transmission lines traveling 500 miles or more often need impedance corrections to keep the voltage stable. Ask your utility about capacitors on rural distribution lines in the country. This is at 60 hz in the USA. Yes is it a fraction of a wavelenght and the lines are air insulated without a solid dielectric. High tension lines can need either inductors for long lighter loaded lines resulting in an impedance mismatch, or capacitors for under loaded lines resulting in impedance mismatch the other direction. If you can tour a local HV transmission line substation, ask to see the KVA, KV, Megawatt meters and in the same area find the power factor meter and the MegaVarmeters. Ask the operator about power factor correction. Speaker cables with the two conductors broken down into many smaller insulated strands, which are then braided together, is to add capacitance to the cable to lower the impedance to be closer to the impedance of the speaker. Google Power Factor correction in transmission lines for further reading. Yes it is flow lower frequencies and longer distances. But then we are talking about Audiophiles again.
@@vintageaudioreview A mili-ohm meter is nothing more than a current source, and a volt meter in a nice package. Look up "4 lead resistance measurement" Meter leads, contact resistance, and other measurement errors make measuring milt-ohms impossible with a traditional 2 lead setup. Replicating the function of a 4 lead milt-ohm meter is not difficult. The point is the leads measuring the voltage can not be the same leads used to supply the measurement current as any lead contact resistance will make the reading invalid. Disclaimer, yes I do measure wire, relay, and contact resistances as part of my day job. No we do not use a mili-ohm meter to take the measurements. We use a DMM with mili-volt scale and a regulated current power supply. We measure mili-ohms down to micro-ohms.
At a point in my life, I was tasked with selling relatively high-end audio equipment, and one of our highest, if not THE highest, priorities was to push Monster products. My argument to management was, why not create a set-up like this one and demonstrate what should be the noticeable difference in sound quality. i.e., a/b switch with everything else being equal. You, my friend, and I know why they wouldn't, but you did the leg-work to your credit. Thank You. Even Monster's creator admitted, after making his fortune, that he produced a solution to a problem that didn't exist. Great Video!
Thanks so much for telling us about your experience selling gear! You are the 2nd poster telling how they sold gear and sold more expensive cables regardless of whether they were improving the sound greatly. It was not intended by me as the defining test about cables- just having some fun with my buddies who were curious if they could hear a difference with the conditions that were present, and I thought it would be a "fun" video to put on this channel.
Yes- both the expensive cables and the one I made went through the 2' DIY cable I made as well. But two, 2' 12gauge cables connected in parallel should have very little effect on the result.
Good cables are available for less then $100-$150 depending on length ... It's your money and you can buy every exotic cable you want, but never claim they are "better" ... as they aren't... They are just looking nice and expensive... probably the real reason you bought them.
If you buy the right Rolex at the dealer, it is worth it because you can sell it immediately for anywhere to 20-100 percent profit. There is no audio cable in the world you can do that with. Enjoyed hearing about the test.
And I don't believe Rolex ever claimed their watch keeps better time than a cheap $20 digital watch. It's just expensive jewelry and they don't argue that. But that's not the case with these audiophool vendors. They are making untested and invalid scientific claims. Fine, go sell your $20,000 sexy looking speaker cables. But don't say they perform better than Home Depot zip cord of the same wire gauge. As I stated in my direct comment here, that should be illegal barring accredited peer reviewed scientific testing.
It is certainly a "hot button" topic, which was not exactly what I set out to do, which was just have an "audio get-together" and get to participate in an a/b test.
@@VideoArchiveGuy Trust me, they're hearing differences ... but not by way of physics. What they're hearing is far more a matter of psychology. Hint: There is a very good reason that none of these cable companies are producing graphs, tests or even listening reports about the benefits of their cables ... (Because there aren't any)
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Not true, but feel free to believe what you like. I've never even looked at measurements before buying anything, it all depends upon what I HEAR. Other vendors only use measurements to see if they can find any that verify what they HEAR. I get you're an objectivist, and if that's how you want to live you audio life, more power to you. However I'm sure you also want to argue that I can't possibly hear anything that can't be measured, and therein lies the issue - we don't yet know what to measure to justify differences we HEAR. A standard 20 Hz - 20 KHz measurement isn't enough.
Honestly, 16guage lamp cord would be fine for most people's needs. I am not sure that it comes in OF copper, which I would want to use as I have had 16guage wire that was not OFC corrode over time, and that is in a dry climate. If you are running less than 15' to a speaker it should not be a problem. Thanks for your input.
@@vintageaudioreview When properly tinned and soldered, the garden variety copper lampcord gives good long service. OFC is best, I agree. The stuff you don't want is CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) wire. That stuff is a technicians nightmare... it actively rejects solder, reacts with brass or gold fittings and breaks real easy when bent a few times. A 10 foot speaker cable with 16ga lamp cord has a DC resistance of about 0.08ohms so it is suitable for most stereo uses. (4 ohms/1000 feet, 20 actual feet in the cord)
@@Douglas_Blake_579 thanks for getting the resistance calculation. Years ago I read am article in stereo review or audio- probably in the mid 80's- and the author said that good old 16guage lamp cord is all most of us would need. As far as the corrosion, I am seeing it at points along the wire, which is somewhat clear, not specifically at the ends. Probably looks worse than the effect- at least at this point- by I built a match for the one wire that was used in the test so I use that now for my reviews.
@@vintageaudioreview By corrosion I trust you mean that green mould like stuff... not simple colour changes in the copper. Usually the jacket protects the copper quite nicely and harmful corrosion only happens in exposed bare wire ... which is why we tin the ends.
I have not tested any power cables, but Amir at Audio Science Review has tested several over the years and the result is pretty much the same- no effect on audio performance. Some may block some high frequency noise a bit better, but that would not have anything to do with the audio band performance.
If you hear sonic differences between power cables, the problem is in your equipment, not the cables. All AC powered equipment is required to have power line filtering and proper grounding as part of it's design. If cords make a difference the problem is in your device's AC filtering.
Do I think speaker cables sound different? Yes, but it is about the smallest change you can make. Do I think DIY can sound great. Yeh. That is what I use. I think interconnects make a much bigger difference. I find my diy far better than any commercial cable I have heard, but I have not heard many.
I am guessing that your DIY are speaker cables and that you did not spend more than $50 on them, and you don't need to try anything else if they are doing the job. Thanks for the comments!
@@vintageaudioreview Yes. My system is entirely DIY and the speaker cables cost $20 for the wire. Basically a litz cable made from 24strands of 24 gauge Teflon insulated copper.
If there are arrows pointing towards the spade connectors would this not suggest the orientation they should be connected; ie signal direction of travel towards the spades, so spades connect to the load end (the speaker)?
Thanks for the comment/question. my understanding is that the arrows point towards the amp connection side. That is the way that they were measured which did not show anything abnormal at all. My electrical engineering friends laughed at the concept of the cables requiring a connection in a certain direction....
@@IliyaOsnovikov It is an ac so the signal flow should not be a factor. I did not see anything on their website specified that, but I did not do a "deep dive".
As they say, a fool and their money are easily parted. On another channel " if something can be asserted without evidence, it can also dismissed without evidence.
I have a set of 9 gauge ofc cable that I wrapped with emf shielding and then terminated. I'd be hard pressed to find anything better. Still want to a/b some cables but have not yet. Will go into a hifi place with some expensive cables sometime soon and test. I would bet the only difference I would find would be resistance and my cables would be far more reveling.
Thanks for the comment. I am not sure that the EMF shielding was needed and would need to have a connector to would be grounded on the amplifier end at least, though with a single ended ground I am not sure how much EMI would be reduced if any- I can't see that being a problem at all for a speaker cable. You would need a milli-ohmeter to be able to measure your cables- I don't have one or I would have reported that data. But your speaker cables sound like they would work quite well, though I can't see them be more revealing than another well built expensive cable.
@@vintageaudioreview good point on the shielding. I just bought a mesh shielding more for looks. As far as revealing, it's resistance that causes most issues with cable. I've been told many times by "professionals" that it might be over kill. I find that statement odd tbh.
@@theoracleprodigy Good idea about using the mesh for looks, I am sure that it did not cost a lot. Unless you are running very long lengths of wires, the speaker wire resistance should not be a factor.
@@theoracleprodigy A simple analogy, if I may .... We all know that once you have a chain that can tow a car, using a bigger chain does not make it any easier to tow. The vehicle weight and friction remain the same. The same is generally true with electrical stuff too ... once you have a wire that can handle your signal, using a bigger wire gives you absolutely no advantage. (Substitute... resistor, coil, capacitor, transistor etc. for "wire" and it still holds true.)
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I get it. The way it was explained to me was more like a highway. You only need so many lanes for travel and only use so much. Here is the thing though. I'd rather have more than enough and not need it than need it and not have it. My cable lengths are only ten feet each side. It's overkill I know.
Thanks for the comment and I guess there is the fact that you can tell someone that you are using $8k speaker cables along with your $20k amp and $35k speakers and $10k preamp- I guess that is worth something. The majority of commentors thus far would agree there is not going to be much added (sonically) with such expensive cables.
I just think people need to stay away from audiophile dealers and not be talked into spending ridiculous amount of money on products they don't actually need.
Thanks for taking a moment to comment. I would agree with you other than I am sure there are several folks who can well afford such expensive cables and would do so just for their looks, which is their prerogative....
I would say that many of them- at least the ones that I have met, have not complained of tinnitus. The one involved in this test has great hearing, though he is not a professional musician. I think the point is that many of them- those without hearing problems- have a good ear for sound??
Hello. I have had a LOT of problems with OFC. speaker cables with transparent PVC insulation. especially after I've soldered on them. very many became green and dark in colour. Buying a cheap speaker cable can be punishing. You can get short life out of them. have also seen this in a newer jamo speaker now only tinned copper cable and never untinned
As was pointed out in one of these comments, the wire I actually used was Copper clad aluminum, apparently not the best wire, though I have had good luck with it thus far- thanks for the comments
Yep, that's an electrolytic reaction to passing current through a junction of dissimilar metals. It's not limited to aluminium wire... but that is the worst for it. IF your cables are reacting as you say, it's probably not copper. Most likely it's Copper Clad Aluminium. The simple test is to scrape away a little bit of the surface of the strands and see if they turn silver... if they do it's aluminium wire. I've repeatedly seen CCA wire actively reject solder, as in, you make a perfectly good splice and then trying to solder it the solder just rolls off and drips onto the floor. You actually need special (expensive) solder and an oxygen eliminating paste to make a proper connection to it. Terrible stuff....
@@vintageaudioreview By the way, the measurement you are doing is not good enough! I 100% agree that the sound difference between cheap good cables and EXPENSIVE cables is so small that you have problems hearing differences. But you also have to measure the capacitor value and other things. And you also have to zoom in on the measurement on the oscilloscope. It seems that you have zoomed out quite a bit and then you don't see the difference. I believe that you must also have a very good sound system before it makes sense to buy expensive cables
@@ford1546 See my other comments on this ... reactance, inductance and other feedline effects are unimportant below 1/4 electrical wavelength of cable, so unless you are running 2 mile cables, you don't need to worry about that. Plus, from experience, if you have to zoom in on a scope trace to find a difference... it is _extremely_ unlikely you will hear it.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. At least we agree that the expensive cables will not sound different that the "cheap" cables. Douglas_Blake_579 has commented a lot about the capacitive, inductive and resistive elements of audio cables is pretty miniscule. The scope you mentioned is an audio analyzer and the scales I use (for THD) are normal and show what is going on. The frequency response plots can be zoomed in enough to make and show any difference.
I would note that Transparent Audio uses stranded copper wire inside, just like the DIY cable, so it doesn't surprise me the sound characteristics are similar. Compare such cable to say solid core wire, or ribbon cables (e.g. Silversmith Audio), I expect the differences will be more audible.
I appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts on this. I doubt there would be any difference in sound between solid and stranded core wires used for speaker cables if they are OFC. There would be a difference in how easy they are to handle most likely.
Sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of the C1. I have a/b'd them against several preamps and the C1 holds its own, both in sound in electrical performance. I do appreciate your taking the time to comment, though.
@@vintageaudioreview compared to what audio research,sonic frontiers,Modwright,VTL,CAT,Conrad Johnson etc etc etc, I wouldn't want it if someone gave it to me free,i fell for the Carver BS 35 years ago and it was all marketing nonsense,oh sonic halography ,yeah sure the Carver amazing speakers howrver were ahead of its time
@@stevieg2755 We are all entitled to our opinions. Bob Carver and his gear have a heck of a following and his gear typically gets a lot of views on my channel. I enjoy Sonic Holography. The only time I thought a preamp sounded markedly better than the C1, which it did, was because I had left it in Mono.
@@stevieg2755 I'm not big on audio tube preamps. I get to listen to a lot of gear, some of it "high end". My audio world is fairly large compared to many. Spend your money on speakers that you like the sound of and make sure your amp can drive them and your problems will be minimal is what I have found.
Thanks for the question. I suppose you could send the same signal into both cables- using appropriate adapters into and out of each cable- and put them into a scope where you can subtract one channel from the other, so all you are left with is the difference between the two. You could test a few frequency points across the band and see if there was any major difference, which I would guess in this case, there was not....
Some people can hardly make financial ends meet, and there are those who think $8000 for speaker wire is okay. Clearly it seems there's no audible difference, when testing equipment can barely detect micro differences
thanks for the comment. I cannot begrudge someone who has the financial ability to buy $8000 speakers and purchases them. If they tell me that that their sound has improved greatly, I am going to be a bit skeptical.
hmmm - - both testing cables ultimately running through another cable, which looks to be stock Monster, but no matter - but how can ya tell between anything when everything is going through that cable 1st, meaning before the speaker? Bad enough that the colorations of using a single speaker will also cloud the results, meaning the ONLY speaker and it's particular colorations and it's particular internal wiring, not that you're listening to a "single" speaker in mono. You're not only implying, but you're saying that the added in cable is only a couple of feet long so shouldn't affect much and that's not to mention a switching box along with multiple added connections of the extra cable and the box itself (oh, none of that will matter, right?) This must be a joke. Would have made more sense to test the switch box in and out of the system to get a hearing handle on what effects it has before introducing it like it doesn't even matter, right? I have to mention, perhaps a bit of nit picking, but I found it to be bothersome that you constantly refer to your "single" cable as costing 14 bucks but a "PAIR" of MIT's is 9K, a rather obvious attempt on your part to exacerbate the cost differences. You can delete my comment - but come on, I thought I was watching a comedy sketch and I'm not even arguing one cable possibly being better sounding than the other - I'm sighting that this test set up would veil ANY comparisons of any cables regardless of price or performance - a total waste of time for you and anyone that trekked to your testing room and a big shocker, actually not, that the results were more or less ambiguous. If this is a soap box for "don't spend money" - you made absolutely no argument. All on the other hand, it's not escaping me that you went to some trouble to do all of this, even though I think it's a very flawed test I do appreciate you posting it regardless. So, thank you anyway.
Thanks for your long commentary. First, I would never delete a post unless it was filled with profanity (has not happened) or is a spam post ("Make $4000/day doing...", which has happened a few times). I think you are kidding with my trying to exacerbate the cost differences between the cables but just saying one cable cost $14 and a pair was $8k- it was never my intent if that is was you thought. It was done at my friend's house and once again, is a get together for "audio" guys to eat, drink and meet. This is the 2nd a/b test and everyone enjoyed it, and I have two more planned. THere is no way that I know of to test compare directly, and it is only in mono, and the intent was to test the tonality. I certainly have no soap box on the subject that I was trying to promote and thought I said that you can spend your money however you want. Unless you can switch between the devices immediately- which the switch box allows for- I don't see how you can compare such small differences (IMHO). There is a paper of my measurements on the switch box, which show that it does not effect the electrical properties that much at all (it does have an effect), but both cables were switched through it and effected the same- I did mention both the switch box and the small cable as being in the path. I described the small cable- it was actually two stranded 12gauge OFC NOS Realistic brand cables per each "+" & "-" lead that were soldered together at the ends- lots of resistance I am sure. Once again, I do appreciate your comments and thoughtfulness with them.
@@vintageaudioreview Thanks for replying - umm, the delete thing is just me not wanting to "rock the boat" with your regular viewers - it's a negative comment and I appreciate that you read it and responded, but of course it would be fine by me if you dumped it, and it's fine by me if you dump this - frankly - the cable thing is only a "thing" to those that haven't experienced the vast range of cable offerings, perhaps ranging from that skinny wire Radio Shack used to sell as speaker wire (I bet you remember that stuff) all the way to reference level stuff and the need to rob a bank to buy it. Let's be honest with each other, do you really think your DIY cable and the Transparent Cable, both running in a reference level system would sound the same? I'm not even asking if you think one would be better than the other, but do you honestly think there would be no difference at all in how they sound? Hey, maybe there wouldn't be, but the test you conducted here would never, as I've already pointed out, reveal much of anything anyway - again, no matter because you'd have a hard time convincing me that, used as intended, you yourself would expect the differences to be indiscernible or that basically both cables would sound the "same", that is, no switch box, no patch cable, direct connections, decent system etc. And that's not to say that sure, both you and I know we're only talking stereo here - and yes, for the sake of my perspective, I'm currently running full loom high end reference cabling - but I'm from way back too - I've played around with all kinds of wire & cables including that skinny stuff, actually, thinking back, I used it for quite a long time in the 70's and like most stereo lovers of that time, I was none the wiser, I loved my system then, and I love my system now - it's about getting off on the music - I can feel musically emotional with music coming from my less than average stock FM radio while driving down the street in my GMC Savana van - and at the other end of that spectrum, and speaking only from personal experience I'm flat out saying that the skinny stuff, and most cables in between, all the way to Nordost Vahalla II which I'm running now simply do not sound the same - everything makes a difference, everything - and again, I'm not talking about one thing being "better" than the other - but there's no denying everything, including speaker wire can and will sound different without the need for a switch box to hear it - but - on the other hand and as I'm tying to express - and - I'd bet we'd both agree on - that is definitely not a pre-request for "enjoying" music. That idea however, does not dismiss that there are differences - and again, my personal perspective & philosophy doesn't include, for example, a listener with a 5K system running out and buying 12K speaker cables either - for sure and of course, that's a diminishing return thing, but that also doesn't mean one would likely hear no difference at all given that scenario, because that too would be equally unlikely regardless of the cost or that one would never experience that 12K value. Anyway, what I'm driving at is that I'm trying to be, or I am the guy standing in the middle ground - either extreme: cables do magic/ cables don't do anything - is simply not true - and yes, any sort of a difference, even minor ones can have some listeners running around expressing magic, I'm not one of those guys. I respect you and believe from watching you and conversing with you that you're too smart of a guy to commit to either of those extremes yourself, even in the light of your questionable testing video.
@@skip1835 As most of my reviews are how equipment performs after many years, I have not had anything like what has happened with this video- and it is a good thing I am retired as I do reply to every comment that I see, so it has taken many hours of time, which is fine as it keep me off the street at nights. Not even when I did the tube vs solid state amps did I get this reaction. Most of the comments have been more in favor with the cables not making as much a difference once they are say a decent gauge- for me that would be 12gauge, but good old OFC "zip cord" would do for the majority of folks (IMHO). Science does not support the claims of cables sounding different when paired with a decent amplifier- there was a suggestion that I should have done a null test measuring any difference between cables, but that would not have engaged my friends. If I had two expensive and huge monoblocks setting on my living room floor, having 14gauge zip cord is not going look very impressive- I get that. I would also agree that someone having a $5k stereo system is probably not going to run out and get these cables. I do have another a/b test coming up in the next few months that will involve a cable test, but not speaker cables, but will involve a switch box, though a different one and a small adapter will be needed- this one just kinda fell into my lap, so to speak and it will be interesting to see how that one goes... At heart I am an audio gear guy and just like what I am listening to sound pretty good- perfection will never be achieved and I am not one that will spend a lot of time trying to swap this out for that little bit more of the audio nirvana- but there are many folks that do and it is a hobby after all. I mentioned in a few comments that my group will be getting together in later Jan. for a/b test between two very different integrated amps, not really a right or wrong kinda thing, just which did you prefer......It is nice having an intelligent discourse with you, but I have to get back to assembling my Carver Cube....
@@vintageaudioreview Ha! too funny my friend, and I am assuming you're pulling my leg a bit - but ah, the old Carver Cube, was it a class H or something, I don't recall exactly - - true story, I once called into a hi-fi radio show that came out of Boston - at the time I was fortunate enough to have an original Ampzilla from GAS (Great American Sound) - anyway I posed the question as the Carver Cube was making the scene and generating a lot of curiosity - and oddly, driving the question was that the specs between the huge Ampzilla and Bob Carver's cube were virtually the same - this is way back - the Ampzilla was driving Time Windows which might jog a time frame reference for you - and in those days we were really on a step learning curve (although I think by then we had figured out the original Monster Speaker Cable sounded better than zip wire, maybe much to do with it's gauge as you pointed out) Of course I wanted to know if those guys on the show thought the two amps might sound the same, the Carver was much less money - I will give them credit as none of the 3 guys would tackle the question head on - you know, like in those days most of us thought similar or matching specs for an amp should mean it should sound the same or similar - - they were more informed than I in that they knew better than to make any such prediction - but that was a cool moment for me because they didn't care about the question so much as they wanted to know about the Ampzilla and the Time Windows which surprised me in that moment but admittedly stroked my ego a bit - that was one amplifier that I should have kept, but who knew back then that to this day it would still be coveted, more for it's brute power and looks than it's rather hard, Bipolor transistor sound - gawd I miss that amp, it was built literally like a tank - - anyway - catch ya later and happy listening - - don't waste another minute of time responding to this one - I've appreciated sharing with you - happy holidays and all that stuff - best wishes for your channel too.
@@skip1835 Thanks so much for your anecdote! I Have never listened or tested an Ampzilla, but can understand your wishing you had it now. Yes, I was referring to the m400a version of the Cube. Check out episode #51 on the Cube. I had two cubes running as monoblocks and decided to re-cap them, which is a royal pain. THey were working well and I decided to push them a little and one died- went into and stayed into protect mode. I decided to wait as I had already been into it a few times as I screwed something up the 1st time during reassembly. About 4months later I decided to take it apart again and found the problem and was able to repair it, and it is being tested as I am typing this- so far, so good. Aside from the low level (no signal) hum you may hear, they work really well as long as your are not DJ'ing a party. Best wishes for you as well during this holiday season
I made some mag wire speaker cables for my hi end rig. Braided three runs for each side and used copper locking banana plugs. Tinned the ends and made a solder as well as screw tightened connection. Compared to some brand name hi-fi cables that I had in the system for many years the sound was clearly less colored. Also compared to some $2k cables ( which sounded very good) I am unable to say one is better than the other. The only downside is that the mag cables are very stiff compared to braided cables.
Thanks for sharing your experience. What gauge wire did you use ? Is "mag wire" copper magnet wire that has the insulation that gets sanded off. The $8k wires are not very flexible either.
I’m traveling at the moment but I’m pretty sure I used (x3) 18AWG. Yes it is 200C coated mag wire and I bought a handheld machine that quickly strips the insulation without damaging the copper. (~$35)
Most of the differences that I hear between different cables is in the presentation of the soundstage, so designing a test that eliminates the distinctions seems pointless.
Thanks for the comment, though I would disagree with you about the soundstage comment. I think @Douglas_Blake_579 discussed the advantage of doing the test in mono amongst these comments...
Great video! I appreciate your scientific approach with a subjective analysis. Can you add a link for wires and connectors you used? Thanks! Keep up the great work!!
Thanks for the encouraging comment and here are the links you asked for: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0149VC6KC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 www.parts-express.com/Gold-Plated-Screw-Type-Banana-Plugs-14-8-AWG-4-Pcs.-091-358?quantity=1
@@vintageaudioreview Ummm ... I really hate to break this to you but that Bullz Audio wire is probably Copper Clad Aluminum. One of the reviews showed a magnified image of the strands and in the true CCA style... if you scrape the copper and it turns silver... it's aluminium wire. Another complained about it rejecting solder and not tinning well. That's what CCA wire does when heated. Note that the description does not say "Oxygen Free Copper" ... it says "Oxygen Free *Cable* " But this also has another interesting aspect ... If indeed the Bullz Audio cable is CCA ... you've just proven that an $8,000 cable is no better than one made from the world's worst wire!
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Well, You are indeed correct- it is CCA! Great catch. Not sure how I missed that when ordering it. I have not really had any problems with tinning the wires. And it works great, to be honest. Will have to see how it holds up over time.
@@vintageaudioreview The product description is deceptive. From reading it I took they were trying to pawn it off as OFC. A lot of people use CCA without problems ... but they're putting on connectors with set-screws or crimp connectors and they're not moving the wires around much. Where you get into trouble with this stuff is when the copper layer is damaged by heat, bending, crushing, etc. then the exposed aluminium starts degrading right away and before long it's trash. Time will tell.
Thanks for doing this test of speaker cables, I wonder if you have seen this video of another speaker cable test, and did you hear a difference between the two cables in the video? ruclips.net/video/bvbP2uu0U0M/видео.html
Thanks for the comment and I was aware of that video. W/out trying to disparage another youtube channel, I always dismiss any attempt to try to recreate what they are hearing vs what you are hearing on your computer or sound system, regardless of they used to record the demo. I only will play music to show that something is working, or maybe how the meters work, and never to try to convey the quality of sound, which for most RUclips would be mp3 quality unless you subscribe to their HD service. My test allows for an immediate comparison between the two cables- within a 100ms if I remember correctly. No connecting and reconnecting cables- that may take a minute or possibly longer. I don't have any products to sell so I don't have a vested interest in in expensive cables sounding better... not to mention that the science is not there for it...
"Audiophile" snobbery is probably the best example of how the industry helps the fool part with his money. I always go for the cheapest cables...and everything sounds beautiful. Thank you for the comparison.
Thanks for taking a few moments to comment. I would say the majority of viewers of this video agree with you. I am not sure I would go with the cheapest (thinking 22guage wire), but certainly not ones that cost over say $100/pair for 12' cables that were at least 12guage OFC....
@@vintageaudioreview The Audio Masterclass utuber tells us most of us cannot differentiate between a $10 cable performance and a $1000 cable/meter performance. I certainly cannot. So, my 16 gauge cable serves me fine, and it costs more than ten dollars. Thank you for your comment. The pertinent Audio Masterclass clip is titled "Audiophiles...you are wasting your money!" The guy runs an online class for sound engineers, so he certainly knows what he is talking about.
@@msingh1932 16 gauge speaker "zip cord" is fine for darn near everyone. I wish I could remember the Stereo Review article from the 80's I believe where I first read that exact same thing from the article's noted author. I am familiar with the RUclipsr you mentioned, though did not see the video you mentioned but will look it up....
Audio is subjective. Nothing to do with snobbery. I've changed my cables multiple times cos I couldn't put up with the way my room sounded. Do you really think I would go through all this trouble not once, not twice but three times if I didn't think it was worth it.. ruclips.net/video/wwU0d3NfRQw/видео.htmlsi=eFc3nTKJCM_jWvYz
@@totalplonker824 I watched your video and appreciate your showing what you did. I am glad it worked out for you. I really don't get into AVR systems that much but have had ground loop issues from from strange actions between components and nothing from the cables.
Okay ... time to "out" this Transparent Cable nonsense... I've just sent Scott a link to an article where they did open the expensive cable to see what is inside... (I can't post it here... but he can) The big blob contains a 2.5 microhenry coil in series with the red speaker lead and a 1000pf (0.1uf) capacitor with a 31 ohm resistor in series across the red and black wires. That is about $5.00 worth of parts. It forms a very ineffective LC low pass network that in simulation causes a 0.5db drop at 20khz. ... and does nothing else. This is commonly called a Zobel network and it's primary function is preventing amplifier oscillations above about 50khz... but any decent amplifier already has that built in. No way on earth they're worth $4,000 each.
Thanks Doug! Here is the link he mentioned: www.instructables.com/How-to-make-a-Transparent-Audio-Reference-XL-Speak/ I did not notice any drop off in the Frequency response that I measured. I am wondering what the criteria is for "tuning" that they employ?
@@vintageaudioreview Dollars against Donut Holes ... You send it in, they send it back. The article contains pictures of the opened blob... it's all potted. The X-Ray is particularly telling.
Before you start. Your cable won't work fine for girls bedroom after a week of Listening. That is when you find out. Now the crazy price is another story.
You should live for a week or 2 weeks with the over the top cable That is when you notice. Also when you tin your wire. Sound has to pass over the tin making A Dam no tin better sound blind or A , B test are. B. S LIVE with the good wire. You will miss it. Blind test on DAC,s Amps. Easier
Thanks for taking the time to comment and ask a question kind of. I think all but one participant was an audiophile- which I would define as someone who likes stereo gear and listening to music and has a basic understanding of "audio terms". I don't see us actually having a name for the group, but the few gatherings we have are by invite. It is interesting to learn about other's setups and experiences.
@@rogerking7258 That may be the case for many "audiophiles". I think quite a few members of my group are more "gear guys"- they just like nice looking & decent performing audio gear and getting a good deal 😁
Hmmm...do I understand correctly, you used a stereo preamp (set to mono) to drive 2 mono amps, each amp had one of the test cables run from it to the switch box, and then a single homemade short cable between the switch box ad the speaker? If so, not really a valid test, as you can't account for any differences between the 2 power amps....not that I think it would have made any difference anyway LOL
You are pretty close to getting it right. One power amp was used- the Bryston 2B-LP. It is a stereo amp, however it is a dual mono design- basically 2 independent amps in one chassis. I have measured the amp and their electrical characteristics are almost the same- definitely for the purpose of the test- you are indeed correct. And having the short homemade cable as part of the test has been pointed out a few times today (a record # of comments for me). But my premise is that if both cables are passing through it, the effect would be nulled out......Thanks for the comment
I don't know how anyone can justify charging 8 large for a speaker cable. Even more, someone paying that. I have heard a difference in speaker cables, but not THAT big of a difference.
Thanks for your efforts & knowlegde sharing. I'm not a fanboy of cables, but still experiment with different materials and building techniques and would say it has some hearable difference. So in your mono setup, some may say: okay not enough transparency to hear diffeence, or DAC not able to provide this detailed level or even the switch box (besides the equal measurements) had some minor effect... All I say, I'm not someone saying it has NO impact, but it has way less impact changing driver or crossovers, or even using a high quality source signal.... and no, my highend DIY speaker cables I build, are less €800 a pair and would never spent more, not even for 1m system.... 😊
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. THere are definitely more important parts of the audio chain than speaker cables. It sounds like your DIY are still pretty pricey at $900/pair....
I would bet you your house I could sub several different cheap and exensive DACs and YOU COULD NOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE. I would also bet you the entire cost of the Moon that you can't a/b cables in a blind audio test. Your money and elitism can't protect you from the truth. I spit the truth and poop facts!!! For realz, dawg. I be straight spittin truuffs and poopin facts. For realz. Bling bling and the schnizzel for rizzel. And I blast knowledge in the form of liquid diarhea!!! Get ready to get poopedz and factz!
Thanks for the question. The switch box limits how many things one can switch between. A mono signal was used going into the amplifier and then into both cables.
The difficult part is creating a quality image and it appears that wasn't part of the evaluation. Recreating precise imaging is very difficult and does take some nice gear and a room with some treatment.
Thanks for the comment and you are correct that imaging was not a factor in this as only 1 speaker was used, and that is the result of limitations of the a/b switcher. But I honestly doubt the cables would make a difference in the imaging if all things were equal.
The "soundstage" or "phantom center" that so many audiophiles go on about is a giant red herring... Show me any circuit in any part of any system that creates stereo imaging. Seriously... it's just not there. The much touted "soundstage" actually comes from the source recording. It is burned into the recording at the mixing and mastering phases using pan pots and phase shifts. Why do you think it's different for every recording? A stereo system processes 1 voltage that varies over time, per channel. It does not know what it's playing, it's just taking what it's given and giving it enough power to drive a speaker. The signal itself is literally a map of how to move the speaker cones. Each channel is largely separate from all others and that is by design. So how is it possible for an amplifier or DAC or PreAmp to edit the positioning of the instruments?
I'm about getting my room as quiet as possible! Maybe I'm just a little sensitive to the background signal noise (noise floor) but for me, even though I'm running an arcam avr20 with a couple of matching high-performance 4 channel power amps (front stage/Atmos) which are driving my Sonus Faber speakers in a 5.2.4 configuration, which also includes a stereo pair of Rel subwoofers for my 4 × 3.5m (13 × 11.5ft) livingroom. I have to say it was only when I purchased quality shielded speaker & RCA cables did my room finally become exceptionally quiet! My room is now so quiet there are occasions (without me opening my eyes) I'm actually unable to differentiate whether the system is switched off or if it's switched on. The room is really that quiet. If one is looking to get rid of that so-called ambient sound of the room. IMO shielded cables are the only way to go and they don't necessarily have to be expensive. Bear in mind this is coming from someone who's changed his setup and cables multiple times. Silence is Golden 🥳
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I could understand shielded RCA cables helping out in some instances where you were in a very noisy electrical environment, and certainly it would not hurt anything. But shielded speaker cables.... I have not heard too many systems that are totally quiet w/no music playing, and that includes very, very expensive ones.
Trust me on this one ... the last thing you want is an anechoic environment. Music sounds like crap in a totally dead room. And... no... cables will never get you there.
@@vintageaudioreview its take me years of trial and error to get rid of all my background signal noise or should I say cable interference noise. From my listening position I don't pick up on any noise interference anymore. Mind you, that's after I shielded most of my cables and of course experimenting with an audiophile grade power bar to help stop the differential mode means noise and but more importantly common mode noise. Common mode noise is introduced by RFI and the wireless communications. I'm the type of guy even though my walls are masonry, I still make sure my power cable and HDMI cable are routed separately! 9 out of 10 its the cables that's causing the noise. Halfway through this short 3-minute video one can see how careful I am... ruclips.net/video/uPi6R54Mdx4/видео.htmlsi=rwpkfC9UFxrnsluY
I appreciate the care you have gone through, but RF noise is way beyond what we can hear. Your electronics have circuits in the power supply that will hopefully do filtering as well, so I am not a believer in power bars, but if you find it works for you than that is great. Thanks for your comments as always.
I used to sell stereo equipment and cables and I wouldn't sell expensive cable if I and the customer didn't hear a difference. I can tell you that speaker switchboxes and average quality stereo equipment will not let you hear the differences. The way to measure differences is to place a calibrated microphone in front of a speaker and measure frequency response and other characteristics there. I wonder if the is a way to measure soundstage width as there usually is a big difference there. I can tell you form a comparison I made years ago between hardware store 14 gauge lamp cord and audioquest type 6 speaker cable was that the hardware store cable rolled off the top end and muddied the bottom end and reduced the dynamics.
Thanks for taking the time to comment and share your experience. As for the soundstage I mentioned the same thing in an earlier comment I made on one of the posts on this video. You can get an idea from speaker measurements. The crosstalk (channel separation) of the amp/preamp could play a factor, and of course room acoustics. What you suggest with the calibrated microphone was done when I measure the frequency response of each cable with my analyzer- if you throw speakers, amps and the room into the mix there are even more sources of error, but I see your point. One commenter suggested that there should be a min. requirements list of equipment for fancy cables like Windows is doing now going from 10 to 11.
What was the wire gauge of the Audioquest cable? In this case it has to be 14awg or your test is doomed from the start. "I can tell you that speaker switchboxes and average quality stereo equipment will not let you hear the differences." Here we go again with this "resolving system" crap. That is pure audiosnob talk. What makes an amplifier or source device more resolving? Three things, noise, distortion., and frequency response. Yes the old Julian Hirsch stuff, and it is still just as valid today. These things are easily measured, especially with today's computer analysis abilities, What are these numbers on a $600 Denon AV receiver? And on some $20,000 amplifier? Now I will cut you some slack with speakers as they are more an acoustical instrument than electrical. But I really have to laugh when some single ended 1/2 watt $20,000 tube amplifier with AC filaments and 10% distortion is said to be a "highly resolving amplifier".
@@vintageaudioreview I should tell you that the speakers I use now don't really have speaker cables. The electrostatic panels connect directly to the amps. I was tired of all the distortion and coloration of all conventional speakers and cables.
The problem is such construction can have an extremely high capacitance per meter. That can create problems for some amps, putting them in oscillation or causing them other issues like ringing. For some amps it can work as an eq filter slightly boosting highs or lows. If you heard anything it was that. Personally I prefer eq to be controlled more precisely (in software or a treble control) . It’s is simple physics: the braided construction lowers the effective impedance per meter but thereby increases capacitance per meter in proportion. The greater the number of braided strands the greater the capacitance. And you would need lots of strands to get to a reasonable equivalent gauge, such as 14 awg (kimber kable 4pr is braided with 4 strands each for pos and neg for an equivalent awg of around 14AWG but each strand is much thicker than a single cat 6 wire. Indeed while the braided geometry has some science going for it in that it lowers inductance per meter relative to the same gauge zip cord, going over 8 braided conductors is pointless as the reduction in inductance has decreasing returns as you increase conductors while you are potentially straining the amplifier and creating weird effects. For all the labor of braiding yourself, it makes more sense to just buy some kimber 4pr or 8pr or KnuKoncepts Krux wire, which is also braided and much less expensive. Pure copper conductors is all you need. All the other claims higher end kimber tries to sell you is a bunch of snake oil. But the question remains: do the measurable changes to inductance and capacitance create and measurable and audible effect at the speaker? Maybe depending on the length, the amp topology and the speaker driver. But in most cases no. The differences of 14AWG braided vs 14awg zip cord are not relevant to the audio spectrum at any reasonable length; and for longer runs using 12awg or 10AWG ofc copper zip cord will more than compensate for braided cables lower inductance per meter without increasing capacitance per meter.
@@ManFromLaBamba Wow. Now that is a comment! I don't know if you saw some of the comments pointing out that the wire I built my cable from was Copper Clad Aluminum it turns out. But it worked great and sounded fine. Will have to see how it holds up. 14AWG zip cord meets most folks needs... but it does not look fancy 😁
Wonder what type of solder they use in their amplifier, solid Gold or platinum maybe.its the price for being stupid with too much money and not listening in science class. They deserve what they get
Hello. I find the set up of your testing flawed. I’m not saying one cable is better than the other but the cables need to be connected directly from source to amp. Also you need to use both left and right channels. How can you gauge the sound stage and spatial depth, height etc? The internet is really bashing cables and audiophiles is general recently and I don’t know why? Many, not all, but many people audition cables at home and if they didn’t work they wouldn’t buy them.
Thanks for commenting. THere have been many comments about my "flawed" setup as well as need to use both channels- you would have to read through them all to see why you don't need two speakers, but it is not possible with my set up very easily, and to just use 1 to listen to a tonal difference is OK. I had no intention of bashing anyone, just describing what the results were from my little expericment.
_"The internet is really bashing cables and audiophiles is general recently and I don’t know why?"_ There is no way to answer that without insulting at least half of the readers on these comments... BUT... The cable bashing is because *nothing* in science or general understanding supports any of these manufacturer's claims and for certain there is no justification for the prices these guys charge. It has to be one of the grandest consumer rip-offs ever. The audiophile bashing is largely because of the snobbery and elitism the whole cable bullshit has inspired in them. These shyster companies have succeeded in dividing our little hobby into two distinct groups... Objectivists and Subjectivists ... and it's become an ongoing argument that never needed to happen. In fact, the two groups should be helping each other to put together decent systems at reasonable prices. All the rest of it is just wasted energy.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Well put again. I would say that it is more about just expensive speaker cables. I don't know if you remember the "masked magician" who showed how effects were done- I disagree with that as I am a member of the Society of American Magicians- but ythat is what a few of the sites like ASR are doing and I think it is great. I have done it just a little bit- not always intentionally, but may do a few more as I can.
@@vintageaudioreview Not just speaker cables ... the RCA cord market is even bigger and runs on more outlandish claims. Then there's the whole USB and HDMI cable thing... Not good.
Thanks for the "thanks". There are a lot of videos on DIY cables on RUclips- maybe find one that looks to be in your skillset and budget. You could make simple ones like mine for this test- but the cable itself is not OFC but copper clad aluminum which is less expensive, but seems to be working ok for me at this point- will have to see how it holds up...
Every time a high-end cable is tested and the results are "no difference" (which seems like every test outside the manufacturer's lab) the "Your system, ears, room, electricity, and/or snacks lack in these ways, obscuring the obvious benefits ..." name-calling and handwaving fanboys come out in force. If the "obvious benefits" are only obvious with the highest of high-end systems, isn't it slimy and bordering on immoral to sell me something this expensive that I have no chance of enjoying? Perhaps the manufacturers should have a Minimum Requirements list (like Microsoft publishes each time a new version of Windows comes out) so as to avoid disappointment and outright failure. As any scientist will tell you if something can't be independently verified (which requires the manufacturer to share all the details of the testing and methodology) then the claim isn't a fact.
I really appreciate your taking the time to expound on this video. Interesting idea about having a minimum requirement, which thinking about it, would include everything from speakers to the room..and maybe even a hearing test...I have no problem with someone wanting to purchase something so expensive if they can afford it- like owning a Rolex when a $100 Casio will keep just as good as time.
It always seems, if the really expensive component doesn't prevail in these sort of A/B tests, the response from the manufacturer or salesman of overpriced gear is always...." well, your system just isn't resolving enough to "hear " the difference.....🙄
Another test would be to secretly replace an audiophile's $8000 cables with a $14 pair and see if they notice.
Not overly practical, but a good idea!
Same thing with high priced DAC’s 😅
@@carminedesanto6746 One of my favorites is when an acquaintance told me heard an improvement when he changes is toslink cable. Thanks for the comment
tell the them that your are hearing the $8000 cable when in fact they are hearing the $14 pair and I they will say the $8000 is better.
@@itsonlyme9938 Interesting experiment idea
What you hear in better quality cables often is not the tone, not an analysis of the bass, the midrange or the treble, it's in hearing the improved detail, transparency and spatiality of the 3-dimensional stereo image. But in order to hear those differences it comes down to setup. If a system is set up to present an accurate presentation of the stereo image then those differences can be become much more clear. If the system is not set up for that and one is merely listening for differences in tonality, whether they hear more or less bass, if vocals sound drastically different, or that a hi-hat is transformed, then you are not going to hear a huge difference. To reap the benefits of quality cables you need to have a properly set up system to maximize the stereo image and often the set up should include proper room treatments. You may say then, well why the heck do i need to go through all of that work to be able to hear differences in cables? You don't. It all depends on what you want. I say to each their own then. There is a market for higher quality cables because it caters to those who have a system set up to benefit from those cables. If you don't want to hear the differences cables make then just stick with the setup you have and carry on. For those of us who are maximizing the reproduction of the stereo image we will then reap the benefits of higher quality cabling.
You put some time & thought into your comments and I appreciate that. There have been a few arguments about cables effecting the stereo image, but basically just a slight movement of your head will effect the image more than the cables....but you can spend your money however you want in your search for audio nirvana- that is part of the hobby.
@@vintageaudioreview Thanks. I would not argue that the differences cables make is gigantic. But it's at times quite noticeable in the right systems and it comes down to how much you want to spend for those small improvements and what they mean to you. I don't have the money for super expensive cables but even if I did I don't have interest in them. All my cabling - speaker cables, interconnects, digital and power all add up to less $1k and that's the most I want t spend but to me they are worth it because they have all made a very clear and meaningful difference but I'm not interested in spending more for a tiny bit more of a difference. I know that you could reply and say that all of your cables add up to less than $50 total, I get it.
@@sean_heisler I have no problem on spending whatever you want on cables, and $1k does not sound too bad at all. Sometimes the cables look neat and have a good feel to them. If your cables are exposed then looks can play a part for some. It will be interesting to see the comments on another cable test I did that will be out in a few weeks.
@sean_heisler
In reality, the quality of the 3-dimensional Imaging and Soundstage performance of loudspeakers have absolutely nothing to do with what speaker cables you are using.
The properties, quality, or "precision" of the Imaging and Soundstage are determined first by what is captured or mixed into the recording itself, and secondly by the design and quality of the speakers themselves plus the acoustics of the room they are placed in. There is a third very important factor...
In order for our auditory system to perceive a more accurate/more focused soundstage that reproduces exactly what is captured or mixed into the recording, the single most important factor is that the Amplitude Response (Level vs. Frequency, or "Frequency Response") Between the Right AND Left loudspeakers be as Closely Matched and as similar as possible At Your Listening Position.
An imbalance between the Frequency Response of the Left vs. Right speakers will make it difficult to achieve good imaging.
Achieving good imaging and soundstage performance with loudspeakers that are placed in a non-symmetrical room can be problematic. For example, when you have your speakers placed in a living room in an open-plan home where one speaker is in a corner with both a wall to the side and behind the speaker, while the other speaker has the same wall behind it, but no side wall because that side of the room is open to another adjacent living area such as the kitchen or dining area.
In this scenario, due to the difference in reflections as well as the difference in boundary-loading and "room gain" between the left and right speakers, the Left vs. Right Frequency Response will be quite different, and the imaging/soundstage performance will suffer.
The ratio of the direct sound from the speakers vs. the reflected sound from the room will also have an effect on the quality of the imaging, especially if one side is different than the other.
Excellent imaging and soundstage performance is easier to achieve when you eliminate or mitigate most of the room's acoustic interactions and influence on the sound that you hear from the loudspeakers, and is the primary reason that the majority of recording, mixing, and mastering engineers generally use "nearfield" studio monitors while producing the music that we all listen to.
Listening to speakers that were designed to be precisely matched to each other in regards to frequency response and dispersion, as well as listening to them in a nearfield environment provides for the most accurate reproduction of the imaging and soundstage in the recording, NOT speaker cables!
This is another reason why even relatively inexpensive earbuds or headphones usually do a good job of providing good Left-to-Right imaging and focus. However, they usually lack some of the crosstalk and HRTF/head-shadowing imaging cues we hear when listening to loudspeakers in a typical room which are time-arrival based (ITD) and help to provide a perception of Depth and "Room Ambiance" or the size of the performance venue.
Swapping speaker cables has NO affect on ANY of these properties. If for some reason you do have poorly designed speaker cables that alter the frequency response of the speakers due to excessive resistance, capacitance, inductance, etc, when you switch to a different pair of speakers cables that do not have this issue, even though the overall FR might be slightly different between each set of cables, BOTH speakers will STILL BE MATCHED to each other because you are using the same SET of cables for both speakers.
And in reality, moving your head just 12" up/down/left/right from the MLP has far more potential to change the response and imaging/soundstage performance compared to any differences another set of speaker cables will make!
As a Communications engineer on Doppler systems on aircraft. It horrifies me so see how people actually believe they can hear such a difference with cables. From a scientific point of view it’s snake oil.
This know-nothing audiohead has made and used, 12-14 gauge pure stranded copper wire since the vinyl bug bit some 50 years ago...SFSG. I'm still using them, the only thing I've done is make them shorter and replace the connectors, twice.
Thanks for your "tongue in cheek comment". I was not aware until after the video posted, but in their owner's manuals (60's and 70's, I believe)McIntosh listed the length and gauge of wire that should be used to connect their amps with speaker, and I don't think they ever went as high as 12gauge.....
The expensive cables should come with a free dunce cap.
I would not go that far.. Thanks for the comment.
@@vintageaudioreview
I would. In fact I like that idea!
If you understand NEC table 310.15(b)(16), you don’t need more than #12Awg wire for the speakers. Just make sure you have a good separation.
Nicely done Scott. 40 year electronics technician on this end.
The results were, as expected of any listening test, very close to guesswork, which tells us they were trying to please you, not hearing actual differences. But hey... it's just wire, what did they expect?
A few years ago my little audio group did a test... we put up a bedsheet to hide the system and gathered the group for a "Mystery A/B test" we asked them only to note any differences they heard and which they preferred ... nobody knew what was being tested.
We played short clips on A then repeated them on B ... with half a dozen clips. The total test time was about an hour since we didn't want to wear out their patience.
It went like this... clip plays ... behind the curtains we very quickly made our change... clip plays again. People make their notes. Then the next clip...
The final vote was down to almost a tie between A and B with nobody noting "same".
But here's the thing... We didn't change anything. My buddy and I got behind the curtain, made some hushed chatter, moved the curtain a bit with our arms and butts... then played the next clip.
The resulting discussion pretty much put an end to that group's long debates about cables and sound quality.
Pretty interesting experiment and somewhat predicable results to a certain extent. I do hide things as best I can by covering the cables up so you don't know what is B or C in my case. I appreciate you sharing this!
Clock radio level systems and low knowledge you refer to do not have qualities that show differences
Fourty years of training on low mode level electronics?
@@vintageaudioreviewIf you are interested in facts you may want to try that same thoughts process with MIT ACC268 speaker cable consoles. This will show how lacking in knowledge and know how of doing almost ALL ARE.
@@davidcross890
Not exactly ... the system behind the curtains was a $15,000 setup, owned by one of the group's members and, in any case, we were looking for differences not qualitative analysis.
I did a demo with a guy that said cables don't make a difference, I played one tune with the cables connected and the the second tune with them dis connected. There was a night and day difference....
Thanks for the comment. Unless you do an immediate a/b switching I would not be a believer...
LOL ... really?
(nicely played!)
@@vintageaudioreview I believe you missed the tongue-in-cheek disconnection, without wires, no sound.
Any SHORT speaker cable of modest quality will do the job
Good old hardware store 16ga lamp cord, still the best.
Amen!
I bought my first good system from an audiophile store that opened up across the street from the restaurant I was the chef at the time. We fed the guys after hours a few times as they were getting open so we had a good relationship. I don't think I paid much more than cost for the little system I bought from them. One day a big-money buyer was auditioning some Wilson speakers and switching between Nordost and Transparent cables. Both cost exponentially more than my 2 channel system. One of the owners turned to me in the other room and said it didn't really matter because both were just a tax on the gullible. They all used DIY stuff in their own homes and had settled on the fact that you can't convince someone buying $45K speakers that $50 cables will essentially sound the same as $5000 cables.
Thanks so much for sharing your story and I like calling them a "tax on the gullible". As I said in the video, the cables look cool and you can spend your $$'s however you want, but when you tell me they are going to sound better I am going to be doubtful.
Nice to have a gathering of like-minded people. I've been experimenting with cables for 50 years and end up with about these results, but it's exciting to try. As for signal cables, then I have other experiences. Thank you for your dedication
Thanks for the kind words! I am sure I will get around to signal cables....
Wow! $9000 will get you 2 carbon special rel subs now there is a difference everone will notice!
It would b fun to come up with a list of audio gear you could purchase for $9k.....
The results are as expected, wire is wire, the end.
Amen!
I cant believe how many tone deaf followers there are. Im sure these people also could not tell the difference between milk and orange juice in a blind taste test.
I don’t think so. Maybe with speaker cables but with interconnects, you can definitely hear differences. Now whether or not those differences mean more expensive or if those differences matter enough to spend the extra $$$, that’s something every audiophile will have to figure out with their own ears.
@@Simon-oq6ds That is key- if you hear differences and want to spend the $$, go right ahead, it is your money and hobby- thanks for the comment.
I have a quite nice new Mcintosh / Sonus Faber system. I just couldn’t bring myself to spend a bunch more money on cables. I went to the car stereo shop down the street and said I wanted their best cable.. They sold me 40 feet of 10 gauge for $40 and said they’ve tried more expensive a few times and could never hear a difference.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Sounds like your 10 gauge wire is working well- no surprise there.
Hey!
I like that you did this test.
The underlying issue you were testing is if an 8K cable sounds much better than a DIY home made cable. Note that while you did see a measurable difference between the two, you discounted it because it could be within the 'noise' or testing error.
But in your test, there are a couple of issues.
The biggest is that you only set up a single speaker for the test rather than create a stereo image.
Of all of the people talking about the coloration of the music depending on amp, DAC or other hardware of the speaker... they also claim that the cables can also add to this. That there may be subtle differences with the overall sound image based on the cable. (e.g. sound stage, separation, focus... etc ...) So unless you ran two speakers ... you lose that.
Overall, I would argue against spending $$$$ on cables, but I'd also argue about going too cheap.
OFC is a must. Then there's the gauge and shielding of the cable wires, and your connectors.
I suggest that you look at the retail cost of your components. Depending on length and quality of cable... you can spend up to $300.00 to make high quality stereo cables.
But $300.00 is much less than $8K which would be better spent on other components to give you a better sound. Even in my small room, my cables are ~20ft in length because I have to run them behind cabinets and out of sight. (Hence the higher cost)
Just my $0.02.
Thanks so much for taking the time to comment- with reasonable ones. I get your take on using two speakers for the "separation", but I don't believe there is any scientific basis for such a claim. Both speaker cables, assuming the lengths are pretty close to the same, would effect the signal the same amount. My a/b switching box does not have enough inputs and outputs to allow for a stereo testing of the cables is another reason I did not do that. I am pretty sure I went over the cost of what I used on my cables, and I screwed up by using copper clad aluminum wire instead of OFC wire, which made the point even better according to many of the comments. So far the cables that I made have been holding up well...
@@vintageaudioreview
Hi, scientifically speaking,
you already tested the cable which showed a measurable difference, albeit a small one.
And that's key. 8K vs ~$100.00 (rounding up) That's $7,900 that could go towards better speakers, amp, dac, etc... which will impact your sound.
The point of the A/B testing isn't scientific but more subjective and its the imaging of the sound that may be noticeable.
Oh and I'm not saying there was anything wrong with what you made.
When you go to source your wire, you're limited to what's available in your local brick/mortar store... in terms of quality and wire gauge. If you're looking at 10-12ft or less, you could go w 14AWG and longer 12AWG.
If you go online, you can get better wire if you want. If you look at some of the RUclips videos, you'll see people using Magomi ?sp? 4 wire cable and then pairing them. So 2 12 AWG would give you 10AWG. Then on to better banana plugs and you've got really good cables.
Overall, I would encourage people to make their own cables and avoid the 'snake oil' stuff.
@@michaelsegel8758 How about considering a/b testing as a scientific way of doing subjective testing 😄 There are certainly some good videos on RUclips making your own cables. If you find some McIntosh owner's manuals from the 70's, they often tell you what gauge "zipcord" you should use to connect your amp to your speakers depending on how far away they are. 12 gauge OFC speaker wire is going to work well for darn near everyone- The idea of using Magomi 4 wire cable is probably fine and might be a fun project, I suppose.
I have the KEF R5 Metas and did an A/B on my system between Blue Jeans and Kimber Kable. I did notice a difference even using a Denon AVR. The Kimber sounded 'crisper' and the highs were cleaner whereas to me, the Blue Jeans sounded more like is forwarding mostly mid-range. But that's me.
Thanks for taking the time to comment, though I am skeptical about most cables making any difference, but as long as you are happy with your choice, that is what is most important.
@GermanRedrum
The KEF R5 META are great speakers. 👍
In your comment above, you said that you "did an A/B on my system between Blue Jeans and Kimber Kable."
Was that "A/B" comparison 100% un-sighted (i.e. "BLIND"), meaning that you never had any idea which cable was being used at any given time during the A/B listening test?
And if so, did you consistently choose cable "A" vs cable "B", or vice versus, at least 9 out of 10 times in a row?
I've always know that there would be no difference, but you will still get people say you can not measure the audile difference of the more expensive cable. $8k will get you a nice audio system and a 65 inch Tv. 😉
Thanks for your insight!
My little system (small but not limited) came in just under $1,500 with a 50 inch TV, NUC configured as an HTPC, 4tb of storage, UGreen DAC, Fosi TB10D amp and Pioneer tower speakers. A little tinkering with part values and some polyfil and voila decent system that will last for many years. Beyond that lies the dreaded world of diminishing returns.
One of the local efetes got wind of what I am using and spent quite the effort running me into the ground about it. Cost me a few customers, too. So finally I ends up nose to nose with hiim: "You think my system is trash? Why don't you come over and actually listen to it before you dump on it..." He came, he listened, he went silent, he left and I haven't heard from him or about him since.
The truth of the matter is that cheap audio is getting better and better audio is getting cheaper all the time.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Great story and some of those inexpensive amps do a great job...
@@vintageaudioreview
A lot of progress in Class D has happened recently.
With the introduction of the TPA32xx series chips TI has pretty much revolutionized it. These chips can be found in powered studio monitors, sound reinforcement, public address, high end home theatre... and, yes, even in high end stereo gear.
The ICE Power modules everyone rages about started with TPA3251 chips for the 50w/ch and TPA3255 for the 100w/ch units. The higher power ones are, of course designed with discrete components.
Then there are the Purifi and Hypex modules everyone rages about.
The Chinese versions of these amplifiers are basically stripped down versions of the more feature laden (read "expensive") versions you find elsewhere. The smaller sizes are possible by moving the power supply outside the chassis and the relatively small number of parts needed to make the chip happy. Miniaturization at it's finest. As long as they're not using fake or underrated parts, they're no less capable than the "big boy" versions you find in other equipment.
The thing is the Chinese manufacturers are still learning how to use these chips to advantage. For example:
I recently did a "deep dive" examination on the Fosi TB10D amplifier. Nice compact unit with tone controls. There were a couple of minor problems with overvoltage on the reset pin (easily fixed) and they had placed the output coils right against the heat sink, causing all kinds of bizarre eddy current problems. I pulled out my hacksaw and took one fin off the heatsink to create some space between it and the coils.
The result... one sweet sounding amplifier that mostly runs at room temperature on 36 volts, producing 60w/ch RMS on 8 ohms with a flat response from 5hz to 25khz and distortion below the 0.01% threshold of my current test equipment at 99% output power.
That's better than about 80% of the stuff these big huffy audiophiles are using. Of course the big advantage is that it, along with my HTPC, hard drive, DAC and their assorted power bricks fit nicely into a vacant drawer cavity in my TV stand.
So what's not to like?
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Have only listened toto the little Aiyma amps, but they sound just fine to me and a few others that have heard them...most likely will be the subject of another a/b test....
I was there for the comparison. Was a fun get together & shootout. Great video, Scott. 👍
Thanks & I will let you know when we are having the next one.
Nice video! And the crazy part is, the Transparent Audio speaker cable that you tested is one of their more "affordable" lines. Transparent Audio's top of the line speaker cable costs $77k a pair and I have heard it still made out of copper. You would think for that kind of money it would be dipped in gold! A fool and his money...
Thanks so much for commenting and I did not see ow much their most expensive cable was... for what length I wonder?
@@vintageaudioreviewI believe that is for the 8ft lengths.
@@generationbehindhifi All I can say is "wow"... must be nice to have that kind of dough.
Goldplating isn't that expensive, for that money it could be a fully gold wire, but even better would be a fully silver wire, as silver has the best conductivity. Gold is used for goldplating since it doesn't oxidize, but making full wire of gold isn't as beneficial. Long time ago I used a thin coax cable made of silver to be able to carry long distances.
@@gorankrajnovic Thanks for taking the time to comment!
audiophile believe expensive cable can tune their system sound better but they not believe cheap eq can improve it immediately
Thanks for taking the time to comment and you are correct for the most part- some audiophiles do see the advantage of equalizers as part of DSP that may be in their streamer...
Some rigs don't have the resolution to hear the difference.
I wonder what standards there are for such rigs?? I appreciate the comment.
My approach is to let people hear both low cost and higher priced cables and let them decide if they think that the audible differences are worth what is being asked for them. My policy is that if they can get a bigger improvement in musical enjoyment by investing less, then that is the way they should go. Surely the buyer decides based on what they hear and feel, and what they want to spend. Any expensive product, such as a sports car is often bought because it brings enjoyment, not because it measures better.
I agree with you- if it brings enjoyment to you for whatever reason, go for it if you can afford it. Thanks for commenting.....
*Sorry, but this test was flawed.*
And I am actually surprised that none of the participants pointed this out.
By listening to only 1 speaker, and not a pair, you are missing/ignoring a huge aspect of sound reproduction, and that is of course, the reproduction of spatial cues. Which contributes to soundstage width and depth, the ambience of the acoustic space the recording was made in. Imaging of the musicians within that acoustic space, the layering of the soundstage, etc.
The human auditory system is capable of hearing interaural time differences as low as 7-10 microseconds. This is an evolved survival tool; our ancestors needed to know where (distance, direction, height, etc) in space a noise in the forest was coming from, to determine if it was a threat or food, for example. Obviously
We leverage this aspect of our auditory system: to hear a soundstage, the ambience of the acoustic space where the musicians were playing, the location of the musicians within that soundstage, etc.
Let me state that I took part in a double blind test about 4-5 years ago comparing speaker cables, and I was able to consistently pick out 1 over the other. The cheapest cable we compared were a pair of $100 Blue Jeans cables, and the most expensive, a pair of $4,000 Purist Audio.
The way I was able to pick out 1 cable over the other, was by listening to the soundstage size and depth, the specificity of the musicians within the soundstage, and other spatial cues. Better speaker cables are better at keeping those very tiny (7-10 microseconds) time intact.
I could add, which I may later, the reason why some cables are better at retaining these spatial cues than others.
Thanks for taking a lot of time to express your thoughts and the idea of using just one speaker and the spatial cues, was addressed pretty well by @douglas_blake_579 somewhere amongst the multitude of comments for this video.
@@vintageaudioreview I'd be interested in hearing their take, but I can't find the comment you refer to .
@@pandstar I am going to copy and past his comment here for you from 2weeks ago:
Since the topic of Subjective testing in stereo keeps coming up...
(This is a re-post of one of my comments under another video)
===
1) Why you cannot subjectively evaluate any part of an audio system.
(Don't even think about arguing with me until you try this simple experiment.)
Take any stereo setup in any room, no matter how good or bad, then play monophonic pink noise through the speakers, at a "conversational level" ...
Find the spot where the sound is directly straight in front of you.
Now, slowly move your head about 3 inches left or right of that ideal centre position...
What did you hear?
When you moved off of the dead centre between the speakers, you heard the sound get a little brighter and a bit louder; what an audiophile would describe as "presence". As you moved further from centre by the first tiny bit, if you went left, the apparent sound source went right, then as you move further it will suddenly jump to the left; "soundstage".
Then if you continue by moving your speakers, you will notice, the further apart your speakers are, or the closer you sit to them, the worse this gets.
This is a phenomenon known as "Mid-Field Cancellation" and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. It is caused by the difference in distance from you left speaker to your left ear and to your right ear. Of course this also happens with the right speaker, as well. At about 1600 to 2200hz, depending on the size of your head, the sound in the far ear is behind that in the near one, it is late and it's out of phase... and it cancels.
Now we know that a move of just an inch or so off of perfect centre changes what you hear. The question is, how often, when evaluating a new speaker, cable, device... have you plopped your butt back down into your chair an inch off from your previous listening position only to judge the new wateveryacallit as being "more open and present with a better soundstage"?
What are you actually judging... the device or your current listening position?
2) Why you cannot subjectively judge tonal balance:
(And again ... don't even bother disagreeing until you try this)
Play a monophonic tone at about 10khz from both your speakers. This will be very piercing so keep the volume down.
Now slowly rock your head a little bit toward one speaker then the other.
What do you hear?
Yep, you heard the tone get louder and quieter as you moved. You probably also noticed that it's left-right balance shifted cyclically as you moved, first favouring the near side then the far side.
This is "Treble Cancellation" and it is caused by differences in the distance between your head and the speakers. At 10khz the in-room wavelength is about 1.3 inches or 3.3cm ... a move of just half that much will actually put your tweeters out of phase at your ears causing a dip in level and a shift in direction.
Again... even the slightest shift in listening positions will change your perception of the sound.
3) The BIG question....
Now ask how many millions of dollars have been spent because of these simple facts of life?
Measurements would have confirmed these simple differences are or are not real.
===
Both measurement and listening tests should be used together.
The switch box and short home made cables would have to be eliminated, and your system would have to be a much higher resolution set up to be able to hear any difference, and your room would likely have to be treated to absorb reflections, and would need ideal placement of high end speakers. Because until you can hear things like soundstage, image front back and sides, separation of instruments, ect. you will not hear a difference between wire. THATS what the higher grade wires are all about. Myself I use different brands, always a high quality oxygen free copper. Stay away from anything Chinese, that stuff uses wire that came from a melting pot of different metals, whatever they could find in scrap. They make it look nice though.
Thanks for your thoughts on this issue, but I respectully disagree with you except for the OFC copper should be used. But but accident, the 12gauge wire I used for this test was copper covered aluminum, and still no difference in sound or measurements. After this video was posted I saw an excellent video from Audioholics where they measured some speaker cables and there is very little difference between the expensive ones and the regular wire. If there is no electrical difference I can't see how they can sound different... I can't get rid of the switch box or small cables and do an a/b test where you can switch between things immediately, which you need to do as our audio memory is not that good for trying to hear such small difference. I have another cable test video tomorrow....
Why are you not measuring these when hooked up to a speaker and amplifier? The resistance will affect the relationship of speaker with amplifier. Especially if you have a speaker with a wild impedance sweep and an amplifier with a crazy low output impedance (.000065) / super high damping factor (123,076 @ 8 ohms) like a Purifi Eigentakt.
Thanks for taking the time to comment/question. The Purifii amp you mention with such a high damping factor (doubt that is real), would care very little about the speaker cable unless it is was really high. I just looked at something simple like the frequency response and whether there was any distortion introduced, of which there was none. Did not bother to measure the resistance as it would be much less than my meter is capable of measuring, maybe 0.1ohm. Damping factor is difficult to measure when it is very high.
I thought Kimber braided cable was too bright for my system, and definitely heard a warmer sound when i switched to my current MIT cables.
Thanks for your comment and I am glad that you like your cables, but saying they provide warmer sound would be something that would go against what I experienced in this video with the cables that I tested and used.
Not really. My comment refers to Kimber and MIT. Your video refers to Transparent and your own creation. Both things could be true. @@vintageaudioreview
@@mantosof I guess you could call me a cable denier for the most part. At least so far.
Yes Kimber can sound bright which is why I preferred Audioquest. To me MIT cables are too warm sounding. These days people seem to like the Shinyata cables which I haven't yet heard in my system.
Agree with the analysis, but I do hear differences with different interconnect cables. It’s noticeable when comparing a twisted pair configuration with a floating ground(long-time established protocol for recording studios), compared to a pair with the ground connected at both ends.
Thaks for sharing. I think you are talking about using a balanced cable vs an unbalanced interconnect cable. The balanced approach is used to help eliminate noise- important for a recording studio. If there was no noise on the unbalanced cable I doubt you would hear any difference- kinda hard to test, I would think, since the preamp may use a slightly different circuit to drive the xlr cable than the unbalanced cable....
@@vintageaudioreview Nope, this is using Mogami 2549 microphone cable in a single-ended application, for a typical 2-channel system. One wire hot, one wire return, with the shield connected only at the source and “floating” at the other end. This connection methodology also prevents ground loops. In this configuration, the sound is very transparent and open. When the shield is connected at both ends, the sound is darker and closed-in. I get the same results with Canare L-2T2S microphone cable. A 3-ft. pair of these cables with Rean Neutric connectors will run less than $15-$18 and will smoke anything up to $500/pair.
@@ChicagoRob2 Show these are your "rca" interconnect cables then ? Interesting about only grounding the shield at one end working better. It would be interesting to a/b them with a standard rca cable...I will have to check into this a little more as it would be nice to have the exact length of cable to connect gear....
Ground loop problems can be quite complex. It is entirely possible that lifting the ground on an unbalanced interconnect reduces noise or hum IN YOUR SYSTEM as the ground current is flowing in another path. Or it could make the problem worse and usually does with unbalanced systems. What you are testing is not one cable compared to another. You are modifying the electrical current paths in your system. You can't compare a modified balanced interconnect with an unbalanced. Apples and oranges. I think I understand what you are doing. Using shielded pair cable, with the pairs as the hot and ground and only connecting the shield to the ground at one end versus an unbalanced cable. But you have to keep in mind your topology has more resistance and inductance in the ground path than the 2 conductor shielded cable does do the mass of the metal. So yes, there could be an audible difference with hum and low level noise. But that has nothing to do with cable quality.
@@ChicagoRob2
If you have one wire connected as the "return" which on a single ended cable is ground... your fancy "shield at one end" trick *will not* prevent ground loops. In fact it could make things worse as the unterminated length of shield can act as an antenna, picking up all kinds of RF interference.
4K for ten feet? That distance isn't long enough to need anything fancy. That 4K would be better spent on high quality speakers so you can actually hear something different. Glad to see people testing blind and actually testing the harmonic distortion instead of just believing hype from a company.
Thanks so much for appreciating my little attempt at doing both an a/b test and the measurements portion as well. It was not perfect, but sure has touched an audio nerve.
At a show a million $ system switch between Home Depo 14ga extension cord and several Uber high end ones the majority of listeners thought the HD cable sounded better.
Good thing I was sitting down when I read your comment- thanks!
Which show was this?
Here's a better test: I was at a local high end shop and we swapped between cables from a higher-end cable to a mid-line cable.
Instantly two 21 year-olds in the back of the store looking at budget gear asked what we did because the sound stage went away.
@@VideoArchiveGuy So maybe if you are 21 and your hearing is really, really good and you have the money to spend on very expensive cables and you hear a difference, go for it.
@@vintageaudioreview It's not about being 21, it's about the level of your system and whether those changes are important to you.
For example, if you have a highly resolving system, and an additional $10,000 spent on speaker cables better resolves the space in which the original recording was made, is that worth it to you?
I'm not talking a modern "every member of the band sent in their part from home" recording, I'm talking about a 1963 recording with Frank Sinatra being recorded in a studio with the orchestra right there. Is the fact that a speaker cable upgrade allows you to resolve the size of the studio involved rather than Frank just being a voice in space worth the money to you?
For some it's everything, for others it isn't worth $10 more.
@@VideoArchiveGuy The system issue has been brought up in a few of the comments. What is a highly resolving system? Who determines the min. equip list? And what about your room and your hearing ability ?
OMG, people actually buy crap like this for multiple thousands of dollars? Are their noses so far in the air they never see the ground?
Actually, the owner of the cables got them with a lot of other things and does not have his nose in the clouds. Most of the audio friends I have would never purchase a cable that expensive and are do not snotty. Thanks for the comment
@@vintageaudioreview I was saying in general. For people who go out looking for stuff like this. Thanks for the response.
@@IDPhotoMan I suppose that could be the case sometimes.
Exactly what I’ve found after trying several hi-end speakers cables. Returned them all.
Glad to hear that you did not keep something you really did not need...
When you say you didn’t hear much of a difference I believe you.
Thanks for taking the time to comment!
Thank you for this beautiful demonstration. Audiophiles are sometimes rich people who know nothing about technology, some take advantage of it.
Well put. Most of my audio friends are not rich, but have gotten really good deals on gear before it became more difficult in recent years. The other week I was helping an "audio friend" out and asked him if he had some wire strippers and he handed me some scissors....
_" Audiophiles are sometimes rich people who know nothing about technology,"_
And the rest tend to be middle-class people who know nothing about technology. Some time ago I helped an audiophile's widow clear out the sound room. This got her nearly $10,000 to put in the bank. They both lived on Canada's senior's pensions for years!
@@Douglas_Blake_579 The majority of audiophiles I know are middle class with their "knowledge" coming from reading/watching reviews and some experimentation of things on their own over the years....Thanks again for all of the commentary 😀
@@vintageaudioreview
Unfortunately a lot of that 'knowledge" (appropriately in quotes) comes from the webpages of these shyster companies who prey upon their gullibility. It is amazing how much so-called science I see that exists only in the audiophile realm... and at odds with well established understandings beyond that.
One of life's harder lessons: "The ones who know the least are the easiest to lie to."
I constantly urge anyone getting into audio gear for any other reason than listening to music or movies to take the time to learn some basic electronics skills. Not saying they need to become techs or engineers, but they should at least know how to read and interpret specs and graphs as well as troubleshooting simple problems. I see the necessity of it every time I lift off the covers on some piece of gear and note the blank stares on their faces.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Well Put!!
I never understood these type of comparisons. Cables do sound different from each other regardless of what is on a scope. Capacitance is the biggest factor as well as the quality of materials. You choose cables based on the character of the hardware you are using and what direction you want to go sonically.
Thanks for your comment, though I respectfully disagree with you....
Nope. It's just wire.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I guess, it's just tubes, it's just a cartridge, just a turntable, etc. If the cables don't matter that much to the sound , then none of it does.
@@RACKDOCTOR
Grab yourself a dictionary and look up "Hyperbole" ...
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Wasn't sure if you were being Hyperbolic.
I can tell the value of audio equipment just by looking at the price tag. Seriously. The more expensive it is, the more amazing it sounds. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. ;-)
I appreciate the comment, though I and many others would disagree with you, as would most of the science. But people can spend the money on whatever floats their boat, I suppose.
@@vintageaudioreview It is true that sarcasm doesn't work on the internet. I should have made it stronger and so should you have. :-)
@@lepidoptera9337 Ok, I am at my PC working on my next video and at 1st thought it was sarcasm, but then I didn't. Earlier this week I had a similar comment on the RCA cable test video, but I caught that one. But I know people (audio folks) that do think the more expensive it is, the better- at least to a point. Thanks again for the humorous comment!
@@vintageaudioreview There is so much nonsense on the internet that it drowns out even attempts at humor, doesn't it? The sad part is that there is actually very good audio equipment at very reasonable price points nowadays. All this "high end" stuff does, at the end of the day, only get in the way of the music. Peace!
I replaced OFC home made cable with a pair of mini coaxial cable, around .67 a foot, with soldered on banana plugs. I heard a difference, and had to adjust the tone controls accordingly on music I am very familiar with. I asked this question at several sites, why? And I was quickly called every name in the book for even suggesting there was a sound difference, all in my head, blah, blah, blah. I'm still using them, they did not break the bank and work. My thinking, it was the lower impedence of the Mogami coaxial wire. Mogami does publish this data. Flame suit on.
Infairness your analysis is probably spot on - I have always found a difference but with the caveat that it is system dependent - but even on my dads fairly low end Cambridge EVO 75 running into Monitor Audio Bronze - we both heard a difference going to decent QED cable - now if we were to upgrade this to something fancy, expensive and esoteric I would doubt it would do anything dramatic - props to you for sharing
Exactly which cable did you use?
If it was something like Mogami W2 series, I'm betting you had to turn up the bass quite a bit... because the inner conductors in those cables are very thin and generally can't handle speaker currents at bass frequencies.
Effectively you are wiring your speakers up with either 22 or 24 ga wire.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Its all system dependent - everything is.
@@nelsonclub7722
Not in the least.
Inadequate speaker wire is going to be inadequate no matter where you put it.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Yes of course I was referring to upgrades or changes - they are so system dependent - so I think we can agree on that - I used to sell high end hi-fi and for instance Naim cable was a good all rounder - I can't think of a good Cambridge, Rotel, Yamaha, NAD system where it didn't work well enough - but upgrades to higher end systems rlike Krell, Audio Research, revealed that changing only the speaker cable worked a treat - but not all times - occasionally it made things sound worse
New to your channel. Thanks for performing this type of test. I've been saying to anyone who would listen, a channel that does thus kind if "blind A/B" test would be so welcome to the hobby. I'm not a cable denier, but I've been skeptical of people who make claims about being able to hear the difference between X & Y components, but not un a truly blind test. I look forward to more blind test results. 👍
Thanks for the comment and hope you stick with the channel. I only do a/b tests every now and then- mainly as an excuse to get together with audio buddies. We are planning another for the 1st of the year...
If you can't hear the difference between X & Y components in a system or the difference between X & Y speaker cables, I suggest you save your money & try a different hobby Sir
@@vintageaudioreviewsolder is my pet peeve in cable building honestly
@@stLtBilko Thanks for the comment, but I am not sure what you are driving at. I am a gear guy who has decent hearing. If I can't hear the benefit of an expensive component, then why spend the $$, unless there is some aesthetic value to it for me. I could spend the money on something else that may not have the sound quality of say a streaming device, but boy, it would be nice to own it- in this case I am thing about a Nakamichi Dragon- which is the part of the hobby I enjoy.
@@stLtBilko Please elaborate..
For $9k I need a night and day difference...
Indeed!
What is the difference between a $4,000 speaker cable and a $14.00 speaker cable?
$3,986.00
Pretty much from what I have seen...maybe some aesthetics.
Nothing.
@@donbest5024
$3,986.00 is NOT "nothing".
I have seen this type of cable test multiple times since the 70's. When set up properly, almost always no difference. A few times the fancy, expensive cables actually sounded worse, usually because of some "magic tech" add on component to the cables. And of course, there are the stories of what Monster Cable use to do at shows, using regular cables behind the scene for the actual hook ups!
Thanks for input- never heard any Monster cable stories, though....
@@vintageaudioreview
Okay ... two quick stories for you.
1) I was called in to service a "Monster" demo unit in a local hifi shop. The "standard cable" side of the switch had stopped working. I noticed it was connected with about 50 feet of coiled up telephone wire (26ga), so I did what any competent tech would do and replaced it with about 6 inches of proper 16ga hookup wire. Their sales of Monster cables tanked...
2) At a Canadian audiofest I attended a demonstration of "AQ" cables and like everyone else I heard the stunning difference between the "standard" RCA cable and the AQ one. After the demo the salesmaker left his stand unattended as he milled though the crowd taking orders. I went behind the stand, spotted an equalizer hooked into the system... put it on top of the stand for all to see... and the place exploded into a near riot when people realized what had been done to them. Needless to say I was actively invited to never return to that show again.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Without trying to sound big headed, I sold all my rca's a few years back except a pair of pure audio one's I still use to play vintage stuff with, it's all about the nas, ethernet cable & amp for me, I still chuckle when I see ads for this or that's latest incarnations of their interconnect rca cables
I use to own a 8 gauge Monster cable until a friend went to my house with a Transparent Wave which is the most cheap of them 400 hundred for the pair, next day I bought one because I would not be happy with the Monster, difference in cables cannot be measure, the definition is not measurable, if you didn't hear the difference your wallet will be happier
Thanks for your comment and if the Transparent cable floats your boat, go for it....
Well I'm not suprised; no mentioning of cable lifters, nor whether the cables were burned in,-and how long that took-, and no mentioning of any participating certified trained listeners.
Thanks for the humorous comments- I am a trained listener, but did not hear any difference, of course....
I wonder how many of those high end cables they sell?
No idea but good question
audiophile = nonsense spending to be never satisfied
There is sure a lot of truth to that statement
Scientific listening tests require a control (reference) which for cables involves the elimination of the cable. The requirements achieving anything other than a null result in testing for fine audio differences are detailed in 'Recommendation ITU-R BS.1116-3 Methods for the subjective assessment of small impairments in audio systems.' Anyone familiar with the science of listening tests would know that the severely compromised testing procedure used for this test will always produce a null result. When the appropriate procedures are followed, the impairments caused by speaker cables are indeed detectable in double-blind tests.
I really appreciate your commenting in an intelligent manner. This was by no means a perfect test and I am aware of some of the problems with- most have been pointed out in the comments on this video. This was a gathering of "audio guys" and we like to do something other than just sit (stand) around and eat and drink and talk about audio stuff. Everyone likes doing this testing and I am planning another for Jan. The one thing that no-one, other than myself, has brought up is how good is your hearing? I will look at the spec you mentioned and am curious if it requires a hearing test or a listening training such as the Harmon's "How to Listen"- thanks for that info, though. And what sample size do you need ? And what about room acoustics? Based on the comments- right or wrong- it seems like the majority of folks don't feel really expensive cables are going to make a difference. If a way can be found to switch cables in
Great video! Its funny how people that defend expensive cables never back up their claim with an AB or ABX test.
Well, there is a comment here somewhere about an audio store that put out a video trying to show the difference in cables for what that is worth, but no a/b, abx testing. Thanks again for commenting
It's funny how those who say there is no difference are unwilling to just listen but instead rely on measurements and "blind testing."
@@VideoArchiveGuy thats the issue. "Just listening" is prone to a lot of bias and brain tricks. "Blind testing" involves just listening with an experiment design to remove biases.
@@abelfonseca Unless you've been doing it for a while and know what you're listening for.
I see this has ignited the usual "my system is better than your system" kind of debate that every technician and engineer dreads ....
So let me just give you all a couple of simple things to think about...
Why mono instead of stereo? ...
Two word answer: Phase Cancellation.
By the time you get into the higher frequencies, about 10khz and up, what is called the "brilliance" or "presence" range, the wavelength of the audio signals in air is less than 1.5 inches... this means that any error in distance from the listening position to the stereo speakers of more than 1/4 inch could result in the tweeters being increasingly out of phase at the listening position.
Moreover, simply moving your head 3/4 inch either side of the perfect equal distance can result in significant reductions (or increases) of perceived high pitch sounds.
With a monophonic test, this doesn't happen.
Then there's the problem nobody can fix... Mid Field Cancellation
The audio wavelength in the range between 1.5 and 2.5 khz corresponds to the width of most people's heads. In a stereo system we hear both speakers with both ears and we take directional clues from the difference in amplitude, phase and arrival time at our ears, dominantly in this mid-vocal range of the spectrum.
So... with a pair of small speakers, set up a near field listening test... speakers about 3 feet away, equal distance and angle from the listening position. Now play a 2khz monophonic test tone at a low-medium level through both speakers. Find the spot where the sound appears to be dead centered between the speakers... now move your head about an inch either side of that perfect point... you will hear the loudness of the tone increase and it will seem to move toward one of the speakers. Move the other way and it happens with the other speaker.
Now repeat the same test with white noise... when you move even an inch or so the entire tonal quality of that noise will change very noticeably, becoming brighter and more present.
This issue cannot be fixed. It is cancellation caused by the distance between your ears and the arrival time of the signals from the speakers at each of your ears.
Of course, with a monophonic test this is also not an issue.
So, now we know why most stereo listening tests are a simple waste of time. Unless you are rigidly positioned between two speakers at exactly equal distances and angles, the results will change every time you move your head.
Now for the interesting question .... how close is your home setup to this ideal... equal distance, equal angles from the listening position. Yes, even 1/4 of an inch matters... Then ask yourself if you always sit in the perfect position...
Thanks for taking the time to expound upon this point. I wish I could take credit for setting up a mono test for the reasons you mentioned, but it was mainly because that is the only way it can be done with my a/b switcher. Imaging/soundstage is determined more by room acoustics, the speakers and your place in the room as you pointed out.....
@@vintageaudioreview
No worries .... it's kinda fun.
Imaging and soundstage actually come from the recorded material, not any part of your playback system.
It is impossible to create when none exists...
However; it is possible, and even easy to sabotage the one you got in the recording. Simple matters such as imperfect speaker positioning and even sitting position in the room can degrade the perception of it significantly.
I am a fan of Carver Sonic Holography and it can- depending on the source material- make an improvement in the soundstage.
@@vintageaudioreview
As a special effect, maybe ... I can do the same in software on my system. But if you listen closely it comes at the expense of other sound qualities that might be more important to our enjoyment. Still, if it pleases you... why not?
It does alter the FR a bit from what I have measured, but the effect can be pretty impressive at times, and I do like it so why not....that is part of the hobby.
Since the topic of Subjective testing in stereo keeps coming up...
(This is a re-post of one of my comments under another video)
===
1) Why you cannot subjectively evaluate any part of an audio system.
(Don't even think about arguing with me until you try this simple experiment.)
Take any stereo setup in any room, no matter how good or bad, then play monophonic pink noise through the speakers, at a "conversational level" ...
Find the spot where the sound is directly straight in front of you.
Now, slowly move your head about 3 inches left or right of that ideal centre position...
What did you hear?
When you moved off of the dead centre between the speakers, you heard the sound get a little brighter and a bit louder; what an audiophile would describe as "presence". As you moved further from centre by the first tiny bit, if you went left, the apparent sound source went right, then as you move further it will suddenly jump to the left; "soundstage".
Then if you continue by moving your speakers, you will notice, the further apart your speakers are, or the closer you sit to them, the worse this gets.
This is a phenomenon known as "Mid-Field Cancellation" and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. It is caused by the difference in distance from you left speaker to your left ear and to your right ear. Of course this also happens with the right speaker, as well. At about 1600 to 2200hz, depending on the size of your head, the sound in the far ear is behind that in the near one, it is late and it's out of phase... and it cancels.
Now we know that a move of just an inch or so off of perfect centre changes what you hear. The question is, how often, when evaluating a new speaker, cable, device... have you plopped your butt back down into your chair an inch off from your previous listening position only to judge the new wateveryacallit as being "more open and present with a better soundstage"?
What are you actually judging... the device or your current listening position?
2) Why you cannot subjectively judge tonal balance:
(And again ... don't even bother disagreeing until you try this)
Play a monophonic tone at about 10khz from both your speakers. This will be very piercing so keep the volume down.
Now slowly rock your head a little bit toward one speaker then the other.
What do you hear?
Yep, you heard the tone get louder and quieter as you moved. You probably also noticed that it's left-right balance shifted cyclically as you moved, first favouring the near side then the far side.
This is "Treble Cancellation" and it is caused by differences in the distance between your head and the speakers. At 10khz the in-room wavelength is about 1.3 inches or 3.3cm ... a move of just half that much will actually put your tweeters out of phase at your ears causing a dip in level and a shift in direction.
Again... even the slightest shift in listening positions will change your perception of the sound.
3) The BIG question....
Now ask how many millions of dollars have been spent because of these simple facts of life?
Measurements would have confirmed these simple differences are or are not real.
===
Both measurement and listening tests should be used together.
Well put once again, Professor. Having the a/b switching done by the remote controlled switch does help in eliminanting changing the user's head position to a certain extent, but even that is not perfect.....
@@vintageaudioreview
Actually the biggest part of overcoming that problem is that you tested in mono with a single speaker.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 To be honest, that was mainly due to the limitations of my switch box plus I was looking for tonal differences and not concerned about anything else that would have been hard to hear.....
@@vintageaudioreview
Accidentailly or otherwise, it worked out for the better.
I have additional tools to test cables. As we put it, we test from DC to daylight in the spectrum. We measure dielectric absorption, resistance, impedance, inductance, and capacitance per foot, and dielectric breakdown votage.
In genera, the DC resistance is the most important factor, so the shorter the better. As most speaker cable is not even close to the impedance of the speaker, any speaker cable of any significant length is mostly affected by Inductance per foot as the speakers are much lower impedance than the cable.
In professi0onal audio, this issue is dealt with by using balanced line level signals to the mostly powered speakers. This results in the length of wire between the amplifier in the speaker to the drivers is under 3 deet in most cases. Large crossover components are eliminated and replaced by active crossovers into a bi-amp configuration. For effeciency the bass is handled by class D amplifiers, and the upper frequencies by a lower power class AB amplifier.
In many professional sound systems, instead of sending analog balanced line levels to the powered speakers, the connection is digital from the console using either AES2, Waves, or Dante interfaces. This eliminates all analog noise sources in the sound distribution from the console to the speaker arrays.
Why are guitars still using high impedance pickups in the days of low impedance balanced sound? That ancient artifact needs to go.
If you have a bench power supply that can provide 10 amps or more, you can do low resistance measurements yourself on the cables. Send for example 10 amps regulated into a shorted cable, and then measure the voltage due to resistance. EG a 10 amp current into a 10 foot cable and has a voltage of 20mV would equate to 2 miliohms.
Really? Applying RF feedline standards to a low frequency cable that is only a tiny fraction of the wavelength of the signal?
Lets do the math ...
The speed of light is about 299,792.458 kilometres per second.
Electricty travels through copper at about 96% of the speed of light (VF = 0.96)
This gives us a velocity of ...
299,782.458 x 0.96 == 287,791.159 kilometers per second.
Wavelength = velocity / frequency, so... at 20khz...
287,791.159 / 20,000 == 14.389 Kilometres ... that's 8.941 MILES.
The first resonant point in a feedline is at 1/4 wavelength so...
14.389 / 4 = 3.597 Kilometres or 2.235 MILES.
Now most of us don't run 2 mile speaker wires...
so below that feedline impedance, dielectric, inductive and reactive components will have a negligible.... likely unmeasurable effect on the sound quality of a system.
What matters is resistance ... which as you pointed out is in milliohms (1/1,000 of an ohm) for all but the most drastically under sized wire.
So lets look at good old 16ga lamp wire ...
rated by UL and CSA at 4 ohms per 1,000 feet.
A 10 foot speaker wire made up of 16 ga wire actually has 20 feet of wire in it.
So we have (4 x 20) / 1000 == 0.08 ohms (80 milliohms) of resistance.
Compared to a 4 ohm speaker that gives us an impedance ratio (damping factor) of...
4 / 0.08 == 50. which is totally acceptable.
Really nice comment here! I have very little experience with guitars and the associated equipment. Your idea with a 10amp p/s is good, but a milliohmeter would accomplish the same thing- I don't have one... though I would like too. Thanks for the commentary!
@@Douglas_Blake_579 All the facts about the speed of light is absolutely true. However, the impedance mismatch means that a low impedance load on a higher impedance cable results in the cable being inductive. When a high impedance source is applied to a much lower impedance cable the result is capacative loading, even at fractions of a wavelength.
Your assumption in the velocity factor in wire is incorrect when an insulator on the wire changes the capacitance per foot. This is referred to the velocity factor. You will find most polyvynil plastic dielectric produces a velocity factor closer to 60% and not the claimed 96%.
It is true the effects at lengths under 100 feet is negligible except for the resistance, but this is a bunch of Audiophiles where any measurable difference in cable is worth $14,000 in price for the cable. This is the level of difference they claim they can hear. I emphasize the word claim.
Just an FYI, High voltage transmission lines traveling 500 miles or more often need impedance corrections to keep the voltage stable. Ask your utility about capacitors on rural distribution lines in the country. This is at 60 hz in the USA. Yes is it a fraction of a wavelenght and the lines are air insulated without a solid dielectric. High tension lines can need either inductors for long lighter loaded lines resulting in an impedance mismatch, or capacitors for under loaded lines resulting in impedance mismatch the other direction.
If you can tour a local HV transmission line substation, ask to see the KVA, KV, Megawatt meters and in the same area find the power factor meter and the MegaVarmeters. Ask the operator about power factor correction.
Speaker cables with the two conductors broken down into many smaller insulated strands, which are then braided together, is to add capacitance to the cable to lower the impedance to be closer to the impedance of the speaker.
Google Power Factor correction in transmission lines for further reading. Yes it is flow lower frequencies and longer distances. But then we are talking about Audiophiles again.
@@vintageaudioreview A mili-ohm meter is nothing more than a current source, and a volt meter in a nice package. Look up "4 lead resistance measurement" Meter leads, contact resistance, and other measurement errors make measuring milt-ohms impossible with a traditional 2 lead setup. Replicating the function of a 4 lead milt-ohm meter is not difficult. The point is the leads measuring the voltage can not be the same leads used to supply the measurement current as any lead contact resistance will make the reading invalid.
Disclaimer, yes I do measure wire, relay, and contact resistances as part of my day job. No we do not use a mili-ohm meter to take the measurements. We use a DMM with mili-volt scale and a regulated current power supply. We measure mili-ohms down to micro-ohms.
You must also be retired, Doug :)
At a point in my life, I was tasked with selling relatively high-end audio equipment, and one of our highest, if not THE highest, priorities was to push Monster products. My argument to management was, why not create a set-up like this one and demonstrate what should be the noticeable difference in sound quality. i.e., a/b switch with everything else being equal. You, my friend, and I know why they wouldn't, but you did the leg-work to your credit. Thank You. Even Monster's creator admitted, after making his fortune, that he produced a solution to a problem that didn't exist. Great Video!
Thanks so much for telling us about your experience selling gear! You are the 2nd poster telling how they sold gear and sold more expensive cables regardless of whether they were improving the sound greatly. It was not intended by me as the defining test about cables- just having some fun with my buddies who were curious if they could hear a difference with the conditions that were present, and I thought it would be a "fun" video to put on this channel.
Wait, at some point the signal is going thru the "cheaper" diy cables, the short ones?
Yes- both the expensive cables and the one I made went through the 2' DIY cable I made as well. But two, 2' 12gauge cables connected in parallel should have very little effect on the result.
Good cables are available for less then $100-$150 depending on length ...
It's your money and you can buy every exotic cable you want, but never claim they are "better" ... as they aren't...
They are just looking nice and expensive... probably the real reason you bought them.
Exactly! Glad you get it- thanks for the comment!
wow !!!. UNBELIEVABLE what some cable companies charger for their fancy product !. such a rip off.
THANK YOU great demo. it's an eye opening.
I am glad that you and the majority of commentators enjoyed the video, even though it was not perfect.
If you buy the right Rolex at the dealer, it is worth it because you can sell it immediately for anywhere to 20-100 percent profit. There is no audio cable in the world you can do that with. Enjoyed hearing about the test.
Excellent point about the Rolex often going up in value. Not so much with expensive speaker cable. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
And I don't believe Rolex ever claimed their watch keeps better time than a cheap $20 digital watch. It's just expensive jewelry and they don't argue that. But that's not the case with these audiophool vendors. They are making untested and invalid scientific claims. Fine, go sell your $20,000 sexy looking speaker cables. But don't say they perform better than Home Depot zip cord of the same wire gauge. As I stated in my direct comment here, that should be illegal barring accredited peer reviewed scientific testing.
I can't believe that intelligent people are still debating this issue.
It is certainly a "hot button" topic, which was not exactly what I set out to do, which was just have an "audio get-together" and get to participate in an a/b test.
@@vintageaudioreview
SURPRISE!
For very different reasons. I'm still amazed that people don't hear the huge and obvious differences different cables make.
@@VideoArchiveGuy
Trust me, they're hearing differences ... but not by way of physics. What they're hearing is far more a matter of psychology.
Hint: There is a very good reason that none of these cable companies are producing graphs, tests or even listening reports about the benefits of their cables ... (Because there aren't any)
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Not true, but feel free to believe what you like.
I've never even looked at measurements before buying anything, it all depends upon what I HEAR.
Other vendors only use measurements to see if they can find any that verify what they HEAR.
I get you're an objectivist, and if that's how you want to live you audio life, more power to you.
However I'm sure you also want to argue that I can't possibly hear anything that can't be measured, and therein lies the issue - we don't yet know what to measure to justify differences we HEAR. A standard 20 Hz - 20 KHz measurement isn't enough.
Good old 16ga lamp cord from the hardware store ... still the best speaker wire.
Honestly, 16guage lamp cord would be fine for most people's needs. I am not sure that it comes in OF copper, which I would want to use as I have had 16guage wire that was not OFC corrode over time, and that is in a dry climate. If you are running less than 15' to a speaker it should not be a problem. Thanks for your input.
@@vintageaudioreview
When properly tinned and soldered, the garden variety copper lampcord gives good long service. OFC is best, I agree.
The stuff you don't want is CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) wire. That stuff is a technicians nightmare... it actively rejects solder, reacts with brass or gold fittings and breaks real easy when bent a few times.
A 10 foot speaker cable with 16ga lamp cord has a DC resistance of about 0.08ohms so it is suitable for most stereo uses. (4 ohms/1000 feet, 20 actual feet in the cord)
@@Douglas_Blake_579 thanks for getting the resistance calculation. Years ago I read am article in stereo review or audio- probably in the mid 80's- and the author said that good old 16guage lamp cord is all most of us would need. As far as the corrosion, I am seeing it at points along the wire, which is somewhat clear, not specifically at the ends. Probably looks worse than the effect- at least at this point- by I built a match for the one wire that was used in the test so I use that now for my reviews.
@@vintageaudioreview
By corrosion I trust you mean that green mould like stuff... not simple colour changes in the copper. Usually the jacket protects the copper quite nicely and harmful corrosion only happens in exposed bare wire ... which is why we tin the ends.
Actually, the green mold stuff. If i get around to it I will email you a photo.
I’m curious if you tried different power cables specifically for noise. I feel like there’s no difference but I’m not 100% sure!
I have not tested any power cables, but Amir at Audio Science Review has tested several over the years and the result is pretty much the same- no effect on audio performance. Some may block some high frequency noise a bit better, but that would not have anything to do with the audio band performance.
If you hear sonic differences between power cables, the problem is in your equipment, not the cables. All AC powered equipment is required to have power line filtering and proper grounding as part of it's design. If cords make a difference the problem is in your device's AC filtering.
Hilarious expose of snake oil in the most understated manner.
Thanks for the comment and it really just started out as a get together for my audio buddies- it makes it more fun to do something like this...
Do I think speaker cables sound different? Yes, but it is about the smallest change you can make.
Do I think DIY can sound great. Yeh. That is what I use.
I think interconnects make a much bigger difference. I find my diy far better than any commercial cable I have heard, but I have not heard many.
I am guessing that your DIY are speaker cables and that you did not spend more than $50 on them, and you don't need to try anything else if they are doing the job. Thanks for the comments!
@@vintageaudioreview Yes. My system is entirely DIY and the speaker cables cost $20 for the wire. Basically a litz cable made from 24strands of 24 gauge Teflon insulated copper.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w That took a bit of time to wrap/twist 24 wires together ane remove the teflon, but am glad it worked great for you!
If there are arrows pointing towards the spade connectors would this not suggest the orientation they should be connected; ie signal direction of travel towards the spades, so spades connect to the load end (the speaker)?
Thanks for the comment/question. my understanding is that the arrows point towards the amp connection side. That is the way that they were measured which did not show anything abnormal at all. My electrical engineering friends laughed at the concept of the cables requiring a connection in a certain direction....
@@vintageaudioreviewUsually those arrows show direction of a signal flow from a source to a load.
@@IliyaOsnovikov
In which wire? It's an AC signal... current flows in both directions in both wires.
@@IliyaOsnovikov It is an ac so the signal flow should not be a factor. I did not see anything on their website specified that, but I did not do a "deep dive".
The arrows indicate the recommended signal flow.
If I spent $8k on a pair of cables, I would insist they were superior, to anyone who would listen. Otherwise I'm admitting I got scammed.
Thanks for the chuckle you just gave me
Whoomp ... there it is!
As they say, a fool and their money are easily parted.
On another channel " if something can be asserted without evidence, it can also dismissed without evidence.
Yep ... Hitchen's Razor
That is an interesting comment and truee- thanks for that!
@@vintageaudioreview Hi, this is where saying came from .ruclips.net/video/g-_RYJA1T1U/видео.htmlsi=dWDoYv0KZLL9ntC0
It's all at the connectors. Brass 99% of all connectors and is 30% conductive at best. Tellurium copper 90% conductive. You'll hear it.
Most of the connectors I have run into are not brass, or if they are, they are gold plated... Thanks for taking the time to comment!
I have a set of 9 gauge ofc cable that I wrapped with emf shielding and then terminated. I'd be hard pressed to find anything better. Still want to a/b some cables but have not yet. Will go into a hifi place with some expensive cables sometime soon and test. I would bet the only difference I would find would be resistance and my cables would be far more reveling.
Thanks for the comment. I am not sure that the EMF shielding was needed and would need to have a connector to would be grounded on the amplifier end at least, though with a single ended ground I am not sure how much EMI would be reduced if any- I can't see that being a problem at all for a speaker cable. You would need a milli-ohmeter to be able to measure your cables- I don't have one or I would have reported that data. But your speaker cables sound like they would work quite well, though I can't see them be more revealing than another well built expensive cable.
@@vintageaudioreview good point on the shielding. I just bought a mesh shielding more for looks. As far as revealing, it's resistance that causes most issues with cable. I've been told many times by "professionals" that it might be over kill. I find that statement odd tbh.
@@theoracleprodigy Good idea about using the mesh for looks, I am sure that it did not cost a lot. Unless you are running very long lengths of wires, the speaker wire resistance should not be a factor.
@@theoracleprodigy
A simple analogy, if I may ....
We all know that once you have a chain that can tow a car, using a bigger chain does not make it any easier to tow. The vehicle weight and friction remain the same.
The same is generally true with electrical stuff too ... once you have a wire that can handle your signal, using a bigger wire gives you absolutely no advantage. (Substitute... resistor, coil, capacitor, transistor etc. for "wire" and it still holds true.)
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I get it. The way it was explained to me was more like a highway. You only need so many lanes for travel and only use so much. Here is the thing though. I'd rather have more than enough and not need it than need it and not have it. My cable lengths are only ten feet each side. It's overkill I know.
You’ll notice a bit of difference of course but not 8000 worth of difference?
Thanks for the comment and I guess there is the fact that you can tell someone that you are using $8k speaker cables along with your $20k amp and $35k speakers and $10k preamp- I guess that is worth something. The majority of commentors thus far would agree there is not going to be much added (sonically) with such expensive cables.
I just think people need to stay away from audiophile dealers and not be talked into spending ridiculous amount of money on products they don't actually need.
Thanks for taking a moment to comment. I would agree with you other than I am sure there are several folks who can well afford such expensive cables and would do so just for their looks, which is their prerogative....
Haha musicians definitely don’t have better ears. They all suffer from tinnitus 😅
I would say that many of them- at least the ones that I have met, have not complained of tinnitus. The one involved in this test has great hearing, though he is not a professional musician. I think the point is that many of them- those without hearing problems- have a good ear for sound??
If you have money to throw away, go for it, but I don't, so I made my own speaker wire also. The only difference I used 12 gauge. Great demo.
Thanks for taking the time to comment! I also used 12guage wire- the small, common cable was made with two 12gauge wires.
The side by side scope traces tell the entire story. Thank you for performing this valuable demonstration.
I appreciate your taking the time to appreciate what I did! Stay tuned for another cable test coming up...
Hello. I have had a LOT of problems with OFC. speaker cables with transparent PVC insulation. especially after I've soldered on them. very many became green and dark in colour. Buying a cheap speaker cable can be punishing. You can get short life out of them.
have also seen this in a newer jamo speaker
now only tinned copper cable and never untinned
As was pointed out in one of these comments, the wire I actually used was Copper clad aluminum, apparently not the best wire, though I have had good luck with it thus far- thanks for the comments
Yep, that's an electrolytic reaction to passing current through a junction of dissimilar metals. It's not limited to aluminium wire... but that is the worst for it.
IF your cables are reacting as you say, it's probably not copper. Most likely it's Copper Clad Aluminium. The simple test is to scrape away a little bit of the surface of the strands and see if they turn silver... if they do it's aluminium wire.
I've repeatedly seen CCA wire actively reject solder, as in, you make a perfectly good splice and then trying to solder it the solder just rolls off and drips onto the floor. You actually need special (expensive) solder and an oxygen eliminating paste to make a proper connection to it.
Terrible stuff....
@@vintageaudioreview By the way, the measurement you are doing is not good enough! I 100% agree that the sound difference between cheap good cables and EXPENSIVE cables is so small that you have problems hearing differences.
But you also have to measure the capacitor value and other things. And you also have to zoom in on the measurement on the oscilloscope. It seems that you have zoomed out quite a bit and then you don't see the difference.
I believe that you must also have a very good sound system before it makes sense to buy expensive cables
@@ford1546
See my other comments on this ... reactance, inductance and other feedline effects are unimportant below 1/4 electrical wavelength of cable, so unless you are running 2 mile cables, you don't need to worry about that.
Plus, from experience, if you have to zoom in on a scope trace to find a difference... it is _extremely_ unlikely you will hear it.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. At least we agree that the expensive cables will not sound different that the "cheap" cables. Douglas_Blake_579 has commented a lot about the capacitive, inductive and resistive elements of audio cables is pretty miniscule. The scope you mentioned is an audio analyzer and the scales I use (for THD) are normal and show what is going on. The frequency response plots can be zoomed in enough to make and show any difference.
I would note that Transparent Audio uses stranded copper wire inside, just like the DIY cable, so it doesn't surprise me the sound characteristics are similar. Compare such cable to say solid core wire, or ribbon cables (e.g. Silversmith Audio), I expect the differences will be more audible.
I appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts on this. I doubt there would be any difference in sound between solid and stranded core wires used for speaker cables if they are OFC. There would be a difference in how easy they are to handle most likely.
Carver C-1 ,come on man that's the biggest pos preamp I ever owned
Sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of the C1. I have a/b'd them against several preamps and the C1 holds its own, both in sound in electrical performance. I do appreciate your taking the time to comment, though.
@@vintageaudioreview compared to what audio research,sonic frontiers,Modwright,VTL,CAT,Conrad Johnson etc etc etc, I wouldn't want it if someone gave it to me free,i fell for the Carver BS 35 years ago and it was all marketing nonsense,oh sonic halography ,yeah sure the Carver amazing speakers howrver were ahead of its time
@@stevieg2755 We are all entitled to our opinions. Bob Carver and his gear have a heck of a following and his gear typically gets a lot of views on my channel. I enjoy Sonic Holography. The only time I thought a preamp sounded markedly better than the C1, which it did, was because I had left it in Mono.
@@vintageaudioreview well maybe try a ARC ls-16 it's a big world out there
@@stevieg2755 I'm not big on audio tube preamps. I get to listen to a lot of gear, some of it "high end". My audio world is fairly large compared to many. Spend your money on speakers that you like the sound of and make sure your amp can drive them and your problems will be minimal is what I have found.
Can these be electrically nulled like that Bob Carver amp test?
Thanks for the question. I suppose you could send the same signal into both cables- using appropriate adapters into and out of each cable- and put them into a scope where you can subtract one channel from the other, so all you are left with is the difference between the two. You could test a few frequency points across the band and see if there was any major difference, which I would guess in this case, there was not....
Transparent audio representative...chime in!
That would be interesting if they did....
@@vintageaudioreview
Wringing hands in anticipation ....
Some people can hardly make financial ends meet, and there are those who think $8000 for speaker wire is okay. Clearly it seems there's no audible difference, when testing equipment can barely detect micro differences
thanks for the comment. I cannot begrudge someone who has the financial ability to buy $8000 speakers and purchases them. If they tell me that that their sound has improved greatly, I am going to be a bit skeptical.
hmmm - - both testing cables ultimately running through another cable, which looks to be stock Monster, but no matter - but how can ya tell between anything when everything is going through that cable 1st, meaning before the speaker? Bad enough that the colorations of using a single speaker will also cloud the results, meaning the ONLY speaker and it's particular colorations and it's particular internal wiring, not that you're listening to a "single" speaker in mono. You're not only implying, but you're saying that the added in cable is only a couple of feet long so shouldn't affect much and that's not to mention a switching box along with multiple added connections of the extra cable and the box itself (oh, none of that will matter, right?) This must be a joke. Would have made more sense to test the switch box in and out of the system to get a hearing handle on what effects it has before introducing it like it doesn't even matter, right? I have to mention, perhaps a bit of nit picking, but I found it to be bothersome that you constantly refer to your "single" cable as costing 14 bucks but a "PAIR" of MIT's is 9K, a rather obvious attempt on your part to exacerbate the cost differences. You can delete my comment - but come on, I thought I was watching a comedy sketch and I'm not even arguing one cable possibly being better sounding than the other - I'm sighting that this test set up would veil ANY comparisons of any cables regardless of price or performance - a total waste of time for you and anyone that trekked to your testing room and a big shocker, actually not, that the results were more or less ambiguous. If this is a soap box for "don't spend money" - you made absolutely no argument. All on the other hand, it's not escaping me that you went to some trouble to do all of this, even though I think it's a very flawed test I do appreciate you posting it regardless. So, thank you anyway.
Thanks for your long commentary. First, I would never delete a post unless it was filled with profanity (has not happened) or is a spam post ("Make $4000/day doing...", which has happened a few times). I think you are kidding with my trying to exacerbate the cost differences between the cables but just saying one cable cost $14 and a pair was $8k- it was never my intent if that is was you thought. It was done at my friend's house and once again, is a get together for "audio" guys to eat, drink and meet. This is the 2nd a/b test and everyone enjoyed it, and I have two more planned. THere is no way that I know of to test compare directly, and it is only in mono, and the intent was to test the tonality. I certainly have no soap box on the subject that I was trying to promote and thought I said that you can spend your money however you want. Unless you can switch between the devices immediately- which the switch box allows for- I don't see how you can compare such small differences (IMHO). There is a paper of my measurements on the switch box, which show that it does not effect the electrical properties that much at all (it does have an effect), but both cables were switched through it and effected the same- I did mention both the switch box and the small cable as being in the path. I described the small cable- it was actually two stranded 12gauge OFC NOS Realistic brand cables per each "+" & "-" lead that were soldered together at the ends- lots of resistance I am sure. Once again, I do appreciate your comments and thoughtfulness with them.
@@vintageaudioreview Thanks for replying - umm, the delete thing is just me not wanting to "rock the boat" with your regular viewers - it's a negative comment and I appreciate that you read it and responded, but of course it would be fine by me if you dumped it, and it's fine by me if you dump this - frankly - the cable thing is only a "thing" to those that haven't experienced the vast range of cable offerings, perhaps ranging from that skinny wire Radio Shack used to sell as speaker wire (I bet you remember that stuff) all the way to reference level stuff and the need to rob a bank to buy it. Let's be honest with each other, do you really think your DIY cable and the Transparent Cable, both running in a reference level system would sound the same? I'm not even asking if you think one would be better than the other, but do you honestly think there would be no difference at all in how they sound? Hey, maybe there wouldn't be, but the test you conducted here would never, as I've already pointed out, reveal much of anything anyway - again, no matter because you'd have a hard time convincing me that, used as intended, you yourself would expect the differences to be indiscernible or that basically both cables would sound the "same", that is, no switch box, no patch cable, direct connections, decent system etc. And that's not to say that sure, both you and I know we're only talking stereo here - and yes, for the sake of my perspective, I'm currently running full loom high end reference cabling - but I'm from way back too - I've played around with all kinds of wire & cables including that skinny stuff, actually, thinking back, I used it for quite a long time in the 70's and like most stereo lovers of that time, I was none the wiser, I loved my system then, and I love my system now - it's about getting off on the music - I can feel musically emotional with music coming from my less than average stock FM radio while driving down the street in my GMC Savana van - and at the other end of that spectrum, and speaking only from personal experience I'm flat out saying that the skinny stuff, and most cables in between, all the way to Nordost Vahalla II which I'm running now simply do not sound the same - everything makes a difference, everything - and again, I'm not talking about one thing being "better" than the other - but there's no denying everything, including speaker wire can and will sound different without the need for a switch box to hear it - but - on the other hand and as I'm tying to express - and - I'd bet we'd both agree on - that is definitely not a pre-request for "enjoying" music. That idea however, does not dismiss that there are differences - and again, my personal perspective & philosophy doesn't include, for example, a listener with a 5K system running out and buying 12K speaker cables either - for sure and of course, that's a diminishing return thing, but that also doesn't mean one would likely hear no difference at all given that scenario, because that too would be equally unlikely regardless of the cost or that one would never experience that 12K value. Anyway, what I'm driving at is that I'm trying to be, or I am the guy standing in the middle ground - either extreme: cables do magic/ cables don't do anything - is simply not true - and yes, any sort of a difference, even minor ones can have some listeners running around expressing magic, I'm not one of those guys. I respect you and believe from watching you and conversing with you that you're too smart of a guy to commit to either of those extremes yourself, even in the light of your questionable testing video.
@@skip1835 As most of my reviews are how equipment performs after many years, I have not had anything like what has happened with this video- and it is a good thing I am retired as I do reply to every comment that I see, so it has taken many hours of time, which is fine as it keep me off the street at nights. Not even when I did the tube vs solid state amps did I get this reaction. Most of the comments have been more in favor with the cables not making as much a difference once they are say a decent gauge- for me that would be 12gauge, but good old OFC "zip cord" would do for the majority of folks (IMHO). Science does not support the claims of cables sounding different when paired with a decent amplifier- there was a suggestion that I should have done a null test measuring any difference between cables, but that would not have engaged my friends. If I had two expensive and huge monoblocks setting on my living room floor, having 14gauge zip cord is not going look very impressive- I get that. I would also agree that someone having a $5k stereo system is probably not going to run out and get these cables. I do have another a/b test coming up in the next few months that will involve a cable test, but not speaker cables, but will involve a switch box, though a different one and a small adapter will be needed- this one just kinda fell into my lap, so to speak and it will be interesting to see how that one goes... At heart I am an audio gear guy and just like what I am listening to sound pretty good- perfection will never be achieved and I am not one that will spend a lot of time trying to swap this out for that little bit more of the audio nirvana- but there are many folks that do and it is a hobby after all. I mentioned in a few comments that my group will be getting together in later Jan. for a/b test between two very different integrated amps, not really a right or wrong kinda thing, just which did you prefer......It is nice having an intelligent discourse with you, but I have to get back to assembling my Carver Cube....
@@vintageaudioreview Ha! too funny my friend, and I am assuming you're pulling my leg a bit - but ah, the old Carver Cube, was it a class H or something, I don't recall exactly - - true story, I once called into a hi-fi radio show that came out of Boston - at the time I was fortunate enough to have an original Ampzilla from GAS (Great American Sound) - anyway I posed the question as the Carver Cube was making the scene and generating a lot of curiosity - and oddly, driving the question was that the specs between the huge Ampzilla and Bob Carver's cube were virtually the same - this is way back - the Ampzilla was driving Time Windows which might jog a time frame reference for you - and in those days we were really on a step learning curve (although I think by then we had figured out the original Monster Speaker Cable sounded better than zip wire, maybe much to do with it's gauge as you pointed out) Of course I wanted to know if those guys on the show thought the two amps might sound the same, the Carver was much less money - I will give them credit as none of the 3 guys would tackle the question head on - you know, like in those days most of us thought similar or matching specs for an amp should mean it should sound the same or similar - - they were more informed than I in that they knew better than to make any such prediction - but that was a cool moment for me because they didn't care about the question so much as they wanted to know about the Ampzilla and the Time Windows which surprised me in that moment but admittedly stroked my ego a bit - that was one amplifier that I should have kept, but who knew back then that to this day it would still be coveted, more for it's brute power and looks than it's rather hard, Bipolor transistor sound - gawd I miss that amp, it was built literally like a tank - - anyway - catch ya later and happy listening - - don't waste another minute of time responding to this one - I've appreciated sharing with you - happy holidays and all that stuff - best wishes for your channel too.
@@skip1835 Thanks so much for your anecdote! I Have never listened or tested an Ampzilla, but can understand your wishing you had it now. Yes, I was referring to the m400a version of the Cube. Check out episode #51 on the Cube. I had two cubes running as monoblocks and decided to re-cap them, which is a royal pain. THey were working well and I decided to push them a little and one died- went into and stayed into protect mode. I decided to wait as I had already been into it a few times as I screwed something up the 1st time during reassembly. About 4months later I decided to take it apart again and found the problem and was able to repair it, and it is being tested as I am typing this- so far, so good. Aside from the low level (no signal) hum you may hear, they work really well as long as your are not DJ'ing a party. Best wishes for you as well during this holiday season
I made some mag wire speaker cables for my hi end rig. Braided three runs for each side and used copper locking banana plugs. Tinned the ends and made a solder as well as screw tightened connection. Compared to some brand name hi-fi cables that I had in the system for many years the sound was clearly less colored. Also compared to some $2k cables ( which sounded very good) I am unable to say one is better than the other. The only downside is that the mag cables are very stiff compared to braided cables.
Thanks for sharing your experience. What gauge wire did you use ? Is "mag wire" copper magnet wire that has the insulation that gets sanded off. The $8k wires are not very flexible either.
I’m traveling at the moment but I’m pretty sure I used (x3) 18AWG. Yes it is 200C coated mag wire and I bought a handheld machine that quickly strips the insulation without damaging the copper. (~$35)
@@bwaters23 Thanks for replying. Yeah, that would be stiff, but am not surprised it worked great for you. Safe travels
@@vintageaudioreview it works so well I had to make another set for a friend! I appreciate your thorough comparison. Worth the watch.
Thanks again! I hope your friend took you out for dinner for making them...
Most of the differences that I hear between different cables is in the presentation of the soundstage, so designing a test that eliminates the distinctions seems pointless.
Thanks for the comment, though I would disagree with you about the soundstage comment. I think @Douglas_Blake_579 discussed the advantage of doing the test in mono amongst these comments...
Multi strand oxygen free copper wire is exactly what the expensive cable uses, the name is what costs the extra money.
Thanks for the comment, though to be fair, I am sure there are costs with putting together such a cable that we may not see.
@@vintageaudioreview
... *unnecessary* costs.
Linn LK400,good cable,well made and they are a reasonable price, their again I have some supra cable and it works just as good,,8 grand😮rip off
Thanks for the thumbs up!
Great video! I appreciate your scientific approach with a subjective analysis. Can you add a link for wires and connectors you used? Thanks! Keep up the great work!!
Thanks for the encouraging comment and here are the links you asked for:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0149VC6KC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
www.parts-express.com/Gold-Plated-Screw-Type-Banana-Plugs-14-8-AWG-4-Pcs.-091-358?quantity=1
@@vintageaudioreview
Ummm ... I really hate to break this to you but that Bullz Audio wire is probably Copper Clad Aluminum. One of the reviews showed a magnified image of the strands and in the true CCA style... if you scrape the copper and it turns silver... it's aluminium wire.
Another complained about it rejecting solder and not tinning well. That's what CCA wire does when heated.
Note that the description does not say "Oxygen Free Copper" ... it says "Oxygen Free *Cable* "
But this also has another interesting aspect ... If indeed the Bullz Audio cable is CCA ... you've just proven that an $8,000 cable is no better than one made from the world's worst wire!
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Well, You are indeed correct- it is CCA! Great catch. Not sure how I missed that when ordering it. I have not really had any problems with tinning the wires. And it works great, to be honest. Will have to see how it holds up over time.
@@vintageaudioreview
The product description is deceptive. From reading it I took they were trying to pawn it off as OFC.
A lot of people use CCA without problems ... but they're putting on connectors with set-screws or crimp connectors and they're not moving the wires around much.
Where you get into trouble with this stuff is when the copper layer is damaged by heat, bending, crushing, etc. then the exposed aluminium starts degrading right away and before long it's trash.
Time will tell.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I may use them once a week or two when I'm testing a piece of gear and will start keeping an eye on them....
Thanks for doing this test of speaker cables, I wonder if you have seen this video of another speaker cable test, and did you hear a difference between the two cables in the video?
ruclips.net/video/bvbP2uu0U0M/видео.html
Thanks for the comment and I was aware of that video. W/out trying to disparage another youtube channel, I always dismiss any attempt to try to recreate what they are hearing vs what you are hearing on your computer or sound system, regardless of they used to record the demo. I only will play music to show that something is working, or maybe how the meters work, and never to try to convey the quality of sound, which for most RUclips would be mp3 quality unless you subscribe to their HD service. My test allows for an immediate comparison between the two cables- within a 100ms if I remember correctly. No connecting and reconnecting cables- that may take a minute or possibly longer. I don't have any products to sell so I don't have a vested interest in in expensive cables sounding better... not to mention that the science is not there for it...
"Audiophile" snobbery is probably the best example of how the industry helps the fool part with his money. I always go for the cheapest cables...and everything sounds beautiful. Thank you for the comparison.
Thanks for taking a few moments to comment. I would say the majority of viewers of this video agree with you. I am not sure I would go with the cheapest (thinking 22guage wire), but certainly not ones that cost over say $100/pair for 12' cables that were at least 12guage OFC....
@@vintageaudioreview The Audio Masterclass utuber tells us most of us cannot differentiate between a $10 cable performance and a $1000 cable/meter performance. I certainly cannot. So, my 16 gauge cable serves me fine, and it costs more than ten dollars. Thank you for your comment. The pertinent Audio Masterclass clip is titled "Audiophiles...you are wasting your money!" The guy runs an online class for sound engineers, so he certainly knows what he is talking about.
@@msingh1932 16 gauge speaker "zip cord" is fine for darn near everyone. I wish I could remember the Stereo Review article from the 80's I believe where I first read that exact same thing from the article's noted author. I am familiar with the RUclipsr you mentioned, though did not see the video you mentioned but will look it up....
Audio is subjective. Nothing to do with snobbery.
I've changed my cables multiple times cos I couldn't put up with the way my room sounded. Do you really think I would go through all this trouble not once, not twice but three times if I didn't think it was worth it..
ruclips.net/video/wwU0d3NfRQw/видео.htmlsi=eFc3nTKJCM_jWvYz
@@totalplonker824 I watched your video and appreciate your showing what you did. I am glad it worked out for you. I really don't get into AVR systems that much but have had ground loop issues from from strange actions between components and nothing from the cables.
Okay ... time to "out" this Transparent Cable nonsense...
I've just sent Scott a link to an article where they did open the expensive cable to see what is inside... (I can't post it here... but he can)
The big blob contains a 2.5 microhenry coil in series with the red speaker lead and a 1000pf (0.1uf) capacitor with a 31 ohm resistor in series across the red and black wires.
That is about $5.00 worth of parts.
It forms a very ineffective LC low pass network that in simulation causes a 0.5db drop at 20khz. ... and does nothing else.
This is commonly called a Zobel network and it's primary function is preventing amplifier oscillations above about 50khz... but any decent amplifier already has that built in.
No way on earth they're worth $4,000 each.
Thanks Doug! Here is the link he mentioned:
www.instructables.com/How-to-make-a-Transparent-Audio-Reference-XL-Speak/
I did not notice any drop off in the Frequency response that I measured. I am wondering what the criteria is for "tuning" that they employ?
@@vintageaudioreview
Dollars against Donut Holes ... You send it in, they send it back.
The article contains pictures of the opened blob... it's all potted.
The X-Ray is particularly telling.
Before you start. Your cable won't work fine for girls bedroom after a week of Listening. That is when you find out.
Now the crazy price is another story.
You should live for a week or 2 weeks with the over the top cable
That is when you notice. Also when you tin your wire. Sound has to pass over the tin making A Dam no tin better sound blind or A , B test are. B. S LIVE with the good wire. You will miss it.
Blind test on DAC,s
Amps. Easier
Thanks for the humor!
Love organising an interesting team activity for audiophiles. Makes me wonder what the collective noun is.
Thanks for taking the time to comment and ask a question kind of. I think all but one participant was an audiophile- which I would define as someone who likes stereo gear and listening to music and has a basic understanding of "audio terms". I don't see us actually having a name for the group, but the few gatherings we have are by invite. It is interesting to learn about other's setups and experiences.
The collective noun for a group of audiophiles is a "gullible".
@@rogerking7258 That may be the case for many "audiophiles". I think quite a few members of my group are more "gear guys"- they just like nice looking & decent performing audio gear and getting a good deal 😁
@@rogerking7258
"Audiophools" ...
Hmmm...do I understand correctly, you used a stereo preamp (set to mono) to drive 2 mono amps, each amp had one of the test cables run from it to the switch box, and then a single homemade short cable between the switch box ad the speaker? If so, not really a valid test, as you can't account for any differences between the 2 power amps....not that I think it would have made any difference anyway LOL
You are pretty close to getting it right. One power amp was used- the Bryston 2B-LP. It is a stereo amp, however it is a dual mono design- basically 2 independent amps in one chassis. I have measured the amp and their electrical characteristics are almost the same- definitely for the purpose of the test- you are indeed correct. And having the short homemade cable as part of the test has been pointed out a few times today (a record # of comments for me). But my premise is that if both cables are passing through it, the effect would be nulled out......Thanks for the comment
I don't know how anyone can justify charging 8 large for a speaker cable.
Even more, someone paying that.
I have heard a difference in speaker cables, but not THAT big of a difference.
Thanks for the comment and am curious how you did your test..
Thanks for your efforts & knowlegde sharing. I'm not a fanboy of cables, but still experiment with different materials and building techniques and would say it has some hearable difference. So in your mono setup, some may say: okay not enough transparency to hear diffeence, or DAC not able to provide this detailed level or even the switch box (besides the equal measurements) had some minor effect... All I say, I'm not someone saying it has NO impact, but it has way less impact changing driver or crossovers, or even using a high quality source signal.... and no, my highend DIY speaker cables I build, are less €800 a pair and would never spent more, not even for 1m system.... 😊
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. THere are definitely more important parts of the audio chain than speaker cables. It sounds like your DIY are still pretty pricey at $900/pair....
I would bet you your house I could sub several different cheap and exensive DACs and YOU COULD NOT TELL THE DIFFERENCE. I would also bet you the entire cost of the Moon that you can't a/b cables in a blind audio test. Your money and elitism can't protect you from the truth. I spit the truth and poop facts!!! For realz, dawg. I be straight spittin truuffs and poopin facts. For realz. Bling bling and the schnizzel for rizzel. And I blast knowledge in the form of liquid diarhea!!! Get ready to get poopedz and factz!
Why not use L and R in mono? Then swap. No corruption.
Thanks for the question. The switch box limits how many things one can switch between. A mono signal was used going into the amplifier and then into both cables.
The difficult part is creating a quality image and it appears that wasn't part of the evaluation. Recreating precise imaging is very difficult and does take some nice gear and a room with some treatment.
Thanks for the comment and you are correct that imaging was not a factor in this as only 1 speaker was used, and that is the result of limitations of the a/b switcher. But I honestly doubt the cables would make a difference in the imaging if all things were equal.
The "soundstage" or "phantom center" that so many audiophiles go on about is a giant red herring... Show me any circuit in any part of any system that creates stereo imaging. Seriously... it's just not there.
The much touted "soundstage" actually comes from the source recording. It is burned into the recording at the mixing and mastering phases using pan pots and phase shifts. Why do you think it's different for every recording?
A stereo system processes 1 voltage that varies over time, per channel. It does not know what it's playing, it's just taking what it's given and giving it enough power to drive a speaker. The signal itself is literally a map of how to move the speaker cones. Each channel is largely separate from all others and that is by design. So how is it possible for an amplifier or DAC or PreAmp to edit the positioning of the instruments?
Thanks, great video!
Gracias!
You are very right I don't believe in expansive cables as well I'll just put my money into nice vintage equipment rather than buying expansive cables
My feelings as well!
I kind of agree. There may not be much of a difference between $300 vs $10000 cables but I know there is a difference between $20 vs $300.
@@Simon-oq6ds Well put!
This is how these tests end. And now, blind test cable risers. That test will have the same results.
Thanks for your comment and I not ever think of testing cable stands........
I'm about getting my room as quiet as possible! Maybe I'm just a little sensitive to the background signal noise (noise floor) but for me, even though I'm running an arcam avr20 with a couple of matching high-performance 4 channel power amps (front stage/Atmos) which are driving my Sonus Faber speakers in a 5.2.4 configuration, which also includes a stereo pair of Rel subwoofers for my 4 × 3.5m (13 × 11.5ft) livingroom. I have to say it was only when I purchased quality shielded speaker & RCA cables did my room finally become exceptionally quiet!
My room is now so quiet there are occasions (without me opening my eyes) I'm actually unable to differentiate whether the system is switched off or if it's switched on. The room is really that quiet.
If one is looking to get rid of that so-called ambient sound of the room. IMO shielded cables are the only way to go and they don't necessarily have to be expensive. Bear in mind this is coming from someone who's changed his setup and cables multiple times.
Silence is Golden 🥳
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I could understand shielded RCA cables helping out in some instances where you were in a very noisy electrical environment, and certainly it would not hurt anything. But shielded speaker cables.... I have not heard too many systems that are totally quiet w/no music playing, and that includes very, very expensive ones.
Trust me on this one ... the last thing you want is an anechoic environment. Music sounds like crap in a totally dead room. And... no... cables will never get you there.
@@vintageaudioreview its take me years of trial and error to get rid of all my background signal noise or should I say cable interference noise. From my listening position I don't pick up on any noise interference anymore. Mind you, that's after I shielded most of my cables and of course experimenting with an audiophile grade power bar to help stop the differential mode means noise and but more importantly common mode noise. Common mode noise is introduced by RFI and the wireless communications. I'm the type of guy even though my walls are masonry, I still make sure my power cable and HDMI cable are routed separately! 9 out of 10 its the cables that's causing the noise.
Halfway through this short 3-minute video one can see how careful I am...
ruclips.net/video/uPi6R54Mdx4/видео.htmlsi=rwpkfC9UFxrnsluY
I appreciate the care you have gone through, but RF noise is way beyond what we can hear. Your electronics have circuits in the power supply that will hopefully do filtering as well, so I am not a believer in power bars, but if you find it works for you than that is great. Thanks for your comments as always.
I used to sell stereo equipment and cables and I wouldn't sell expensive cable if I and the customer didn't hear a difference. I can tell you that speaker switchboxes and average quality stereo equipment will not let you hear the differences. The way to measure differences is to place a calibrated microphone in front of a speaker and measure frequency response and other characteristics there. I wonder if the is a way to measure soundstage width as there usually is a big difference there. I can tell you form a comparison I made years ago between hardware store 14 gauge lamp cord and audioquest type 6 speaker cable was that the hardware store cable rolled off the top end and muddied the bottom end and reduced the dynamics.
Rubbish ... The differences are purely imaginary.
Thanks for taking the time to comment and share your experience. As for the soundstage I mentioned the same thing in an earlier comment I made on one of the posts on this video. You can get an idea from speaker measurements. The crosstalk (channel separation) of the amp/preamp could play a factor, and of course room acoustics. What you suggest with the calibrated microphone was done when I measure the frequency response of each cable with my analyzer- if you throw speakers, amps and the room into the mix there are even more sources of error, but I see your point. One commenter suggested that there should be a min. requirements list of equipment for fancy cables like Windows is doing now going from 10 to 11.
If you are ever in Tucson we are going to have to get together for a beer or coffee
What was the wire gauge of the Audioquest cable? In this case it has to be 14awg or your test is doomed from the start.
"I can tell you that speaker switchboxes and average quality stereo equipment will not let you hear the differences."
Here we go again with this "resolving system" crap. That is pure audiosnob talk. What makes an amplifier or source device more resolving? Three things, noise, distortion., and frequency response. Yes the old Julian Hirsch stuff, and it is still just as valid today. These things are easily measured, especially with today's computer analysis abilities, What are these numbers on a $600 Denon AV receiver? And on some $20,000 amplifier? Now I will cut you some slack with speakers as they are more an acoustical instrument than electrical. But I really have to laugh when some single ended 1/2 watt $20,000 tube amplifier with AC filaments and 10% distortion is said to be a "highly resolving amplifier".
@@vintageaudioreview I should tell you that the speakers I use now don't really have speaker cables. The electrostatic panels connect directly to the amps. I was tired of all the distortion and coloration of all conventional speakers and cables.
The best speaker cables I've personally tried were DIY braided CAT5. Very labor intense, but very good results.
That is an interesting concept- braided cat 5 cables- who many were used I wonder?
The problem is such construction can have an extremely high capacitance per meter. That can create problems for some amps, putting them in oscillation or causing them other issues like ringing. For some amps it can work as an eq filter slightly boosting highs or lows. If you heard anything it was that. Personally I prefer eq to be controlled more precisely (in software or a treble control) .
It’s is simple physics: the braided construction lowers the effective impedance per meter but thereby increases capacitance per meter in proportion. The greater the number of braided strands the greater the capacitance. And you would need lots of strands to get to a reasonable equivalent gauge, such as 14 awg (kimber kable 4pr is braided with 4 strands each for pos and neg for an equivalent awg of around 14AWG but each strand is much thicker than a single cat 6 wire. Indeed while the braided geometry has some science going for it in that it lowers inductance per meter relative to the same gauge zip cord, going over 8 braided conductors is pointless as the reduction in inductance has decreasing returns as you increase conductors while you are potentially straining the amplifier and creating weird effects.
For all the labor of braiding yourself, it makes more sense to just buy some kimber 4pr or 8pr or KnuKoncepts Krux wire, which is also braided and much less expensive. Pure copper conductors is all you need. All the other claims higher end kimber tries to sell you is a bunch of snake oil.
But the question remains: do the measurable changes to inductance and capacitance create and measurable and audible effect at the speaker? Maybe depending on the length, the amp topology and the speaker driver. But in most cases no. The differences of 14AWG braided vs 14awg zip cord are not relevant to the audio spectrum at any reasonable length; and for longer runs using 12awg or 10AWG ofc copper zip cord will more than compensate for braided cables lower inductance per meter without increasing capacitance per meter.
@@ManFromLaBamba Wow. Now that is a comment! I don't know if you saw some of the comments pointing out that the wire I built my cable from was Copper Clad Aluminum it turns out. But it worked great and sounded fine. Will have to see how it holds up. 14AWG zip cord meets most folks needs... but it does not look fancy 😁
Wonder what type of solder they use in their amplifier, solid Gold or platinum maybe.its the price for being stupid with too much money and not listening in science class. They deserve what they get
Thanks for the comments!
Hello.
I find the set up of your testing flawed. I’m not saying one cable is better than the other but the cables need to be connected directly from source to amp. Also you need to use both left and right channels. How can you gauge the sound stage and spatial depth, height etc?
The internet is really bashing cables and audiophiles is general recently and I don’t know why?
Many, not all, but many people audition cables at home and if they didn’t work they wouldn’t buy them.
Thanks for commenting. THere have been many comments about my "flawed" setup as well as need to use both channels- you would have to read through them all to see why you don't need two speakers, but it is not possible with my set up very easily, and to just use 1 to listen to a tonal difference is OK. I had no intention of bashing anyone, just describing what the results were from my little expericment.
_"The internet is really bashing cables and audiophiles is general recently and I don’t know why?"_
There is no way to answer that without insulting at least half of the readers on these comments... BUT...
The cable bashing is because *nothing* in science or general understanding supports any of these manufacturer's claims and for certain there is no justification for the prices these guys charge. It has to be one of the grandest consumer rip-offs ever.
The audiophile bashing is largely because of the snobbery and elitism the whole cable bullshit has inspired in them.
These shyster companies have succeeded in dividing our little hobby into two distinct groups... Objectivists and Subjectivists ... and it's become an ongoing argument that never needed to happen. In fact, the two groups should be helping each other to put together decent systems at reasonable prices. All the rest of it is just wasted energy.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Well put again. I would say that it is more about just expensive speaker cables. I don't know if you remember the "masked magician" who showed how effects were done- I disagree with that as I am a member of the Society of American Magicians- but ythat is what a few of the sites like ASR are doing and I think it is great. I have done it just a little bit- not always intentionally, but may do a few more as I can.
@@vintageaudioreview
Not just speaker cables ... the RCA cord market is even bigger and runs on more outlandish claims. Then there's the whole USB and HDMI cable thing...
Not good.
People buy a lot of things that make them feel better...
That doesn't give those things functional merit
I done same tests,6mm² vs two exotic, expensive cables... results was same as yours
...
Thanks for sharing and am not surprised you got the same results...
Thank you for this! I'd been curious recently whether it was worth spending more like $50 or so on a set of cables.
Thanks for the "thanks". There are a lot of videos on DIY cables on RUclips- maybe find one that looks to be in your skillset and budget. You could make simple ones like mine for this test- but the cable itself is not OFC but copper clad aluminum which is less expensive, but seems to be working ok for me at this point- will have to see how it holds up...
Every time a high-end cable is tested and the results are "no difference" (which seems like every test outside the manufacturer's lab) the "Your system, ears, room, electricity, and/or snacks lack in these ways, obscuring the obvious benefits ..." name-calling and handwaving fanboys come out in force. If the "obvious benefits" are only obvious with the highest of high-end systems, isn't it slimy and bordering on immoral to sell me something this expensive that I have no chance of enjoying? Perhaps the manufacturers should have a Minimum Requirements list (like Microsoft publishes each time a new version of Windows comes out) so as to avoid disappointment and outright failure. As any scientist will tell you if something can't be independently verified (which requires the manufacturer to share all the details of the testing and methodology) then the claim isn't a fact.
I really appreciate your taking the time to expound on this video. Interesting idea about having a minimum requirement, which thinking about it, would include everything from speakers to the room..and maybe even a hearing test...I have no problem with someone wanting to purchase something so expensive if they can afford it- like owning a Rolex when a $100 Casio will keep just as good as time.
"Any claim made out of hand can be dismissed out of hand"
Hitchen's Razor... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
It always seems, if the really expensive component doesn't prevail in these sort of A/B tests, the response from the manufacturer or salesman of overpriced gear is always...." well, your system just isn't resolving enough to "hear " the difference.....🙄
@@danb.9891
The correct answer is that the cable doesn't make enough difference for it to become obvious.