If only three dragons can bring magic back to such a degree, then what was it like prior to the doom of Valyria? I wonder if it's the activity of The Others that's really raising the level of ambient magic and that's what allowed the dragons to be born.
Maybe? But things starting to work seem to coincide with the dragons, not the others. I mean technically the others never left but dragons did (as far as we know.).
Great stream as always , magic in the ASoIaF universe is always a fascinating topic and as usual this stream did not disappoint. I personally really enjoy GRRM's take and presentation of magic in this universe ; almost all comes at a cost , it is not uber prevalent (compared to many other fantasy works) and a fair share of mystery and ambiguity attached to it on many levels. And Robert Happy Nameday !! in the upcoming week(s) , enjoy the time off. With the consistent long hours and hard work you put it for us all producing amazing content (livestreams and all your vids) you have earned a well deserved break. Look forward to the next livestream and any content that comes out in the interim. Enjoy your holiday Robert.
In regards to rules based magic vs open ended magic, I prefer Jim Butcher’s statement that It depends on the point of view character. To a layman all magic would look open ended, Yet in the mind of somebody practicing it they are aware of the firm rules and limitations of each act.
I love the ironic image of the Maesters in the Citadel being in the middle of saying “Oh there’s no such thing as magic” when Euron interrupts them doing blood magic that is raising Krakens.
I loved Good Omens , the book and the show! So I'm so excited for Good Omens 2 , I had no idea about it.... So thankyou for letting me know!!! Can't wait!
regarding Krakens: i think it's worth noting how often people eat lampreys throughout the books. (seems like the most commonly eaten dish?). Lampreys are large squid-like leech fish. I think this a clue to the nature of krakens. And when you add the amount of leeches that have been mentioned (for Melisandre's blood magic or Roose Bolton's whole thing (he constantly leeches himself. and has weird hairless puffy skin like a leech?))... Not really able to pull it all together. but often think of the lamprey and leech thing when krakens come up. (plus, personally hoping that maesters shooting magic (like tentacles) from the giant white tower in old town (a lighthouse basically, with a shining eye at the top) will fulfill Euron's vision of a raising a giant kraken)
I listened to the entire thing, and it took almost 2 months. lol. Very insightful answers, and I had forgotten about a lot of the things you mentioned, even though I've read the books and seen the movies. It's amazing how many details you miss.
O thank you for making things feel "normal" again. Just hearing a secret Targaryen theory gave me that feeling of well being. It's going to be okay. We're still here.
I just finished watching but talking Beorn, Skinchangers, Werebears, actually reminded me of a thought I had last week, which is that Jon surviving intact through warging and housing his soul in Ghost is a very similar story beat to Haplo and Dog in Weis & Hickman's Death Gate Cycle. There's a few key differences Ghost functions more as a Familiar, but the parallel came to mind all the same.
I totally agree with the recommendation of Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Have you read Rothfuss’ Name of the Wind/Kingkiller series? It’s a pretty systematic approach to magic, but unique and cool.
You keep mentioning, in a few videos/streams, that the measters can reforge V-Steel. i dont believe that is necessarily true. I always understood that they just have a store of V-Steel links thats are just added into their chains, just open up and close another link. it could be a rare area of study to complete a link for because they only have a small number of the links, V-Steel was very expensive even before the destruction of valyeria.
Wrt magic, it does make sense to me that intention makes it more directed, more efficient, rather than a binary necessity. Like, you accidentally do the correct thing to raise the dead and it takes a whole battlefield of sacrifice, you raise someone from the dead on purpose it takes a piece of each party's "soul" whatever that is. If magic is natural, by which I mean baked into the world's natural laws, it makes sense it like science occassionally gets stumbled upon by accident, especially during very early pre-history when nobody knew anything yet, and then got refined over time through trial and error into the very specific "High Magic"/alchemy with very predictable results. Which means it can be stumbled upon by accident again the only difference is you have some idea of what you've done because there's at least precedent. A bunch of things have the structure to work like this: dragon eggs hatching/dragon bonding, king's blood as both more and less familyline specific than you'd think (doesn't matter if they'e bastards or trueborn, sometimes runs through paternal line but sometimes maternal line and sometimes both, doesn't matter who is on the manmade throne but rather something's sure magically spiked about descendants of these specific bloodlines who tend to also regularly be crowned), physical glamours (both Mel's and face changing being basically the same thing at different points on a spectrum of specificity vis a vis what you need and how much of the person you're copying you get but in a way that seems almost polar opposite to say warging/glass candles which I'd argue feel related in a similar way that Mel's glamours and face changing do. Bringing your self to someone instead of taking someone onto you.) The more you know exactly what to do, the better your outcome both in results and chance of success, but people do seem to sometimes do it by accident. If ninety nine times out of a hundred it doesn't work if stumbled through by accident, there's still that one time, right?
Was it common practice for the Starks to keep direwolves as pets? There seems to be some precedent with how readily Ned is persuaded to let his small children raise their own. But I don't recall if it's mentioned elsewhere if Starks of yore kept them
1:45:05 I think the magic of the First Men has more to do with the Pact at the Isle of Faces. That it was grafted into their DNA somehow in exchange for some kind of promise or service in return (likely blood sacrifice to the weirwoods - even Ned Stark cleans the blood off of his sword into the pool under the weirwood)
Just had a thought. Thorus makes no secret of the fact he is a "bad priest" - so how likely is it that when he performed the last rite for Beric that he got the ritual mixed up with the one for resurrection... and if he realised after the fact, he is unwilling to confess his mistake. Or perhaps if he encounters a resurrected Jon and hears how it happens that is when he finds out he performed the wrong ritual?
1:08:00 What leaf means by "the gods created the green seerers" is that they are born naturally (what we call genetics) and that they are not "made" through some use of magic or other "artificial" means....that its up to "nature" who becomes a greenseer.
2bescene , happens to me all the time with so many channels , idk y RUclips is still so bad at sending out notifications , even when Subscribed and Notifications turned on.
This may have been brought up live or just sooner. In regards to the tongue biting during warging. Warging another human is a challenge, I wonder if the biting of the tongue, even inadvertently, could provide enough pain and focus the victims kind enough the drive out the warger?
Robert, I don't usually agree with you, but I still enjoy and appreciate your content bc it gets the wheels turning. :D Re:kings blood. I don't think it actually is more potent, I think Mel just believes that it is. Bc blood magic is eastern magic and kings in westeros are anointed by the 7. If some sort of official acknowledgement isn't necessary for the magic to work, then anyone can just be like "I'm a king" and then their blood is potent. Mel also has a really loose definition of king, as she includes mance. I think maybe it's more that important leaders have a quality that makes their blood more potent. Perhaps a personality trait or the belief of the people that follow them.
I don't think something that EXISTS can just be "pushed to one side." Not permanently. It would be like trying to say that electricity doesn't exist. You might get away with it for a while, but someone someday will dredge it back up, and will PROSPER. It's "out there," just waiting for someone to pick it back up. And I'd cheer on the person doing it, because I don't believe in suppressing things. Whether I'd actually cheer would depend on what they were doing with it, of course, but I'd certainly cheer on anyone using it for benign purposes.
Sorry if I missed it, but I wonder why discussions of the magic of the old gods never cites how the Reed children describe the powers of the magic of the crannog.
It occurs to me that just as Mel does what appear to be "bad" things for "just" reasons, so does Stoneheart. Jaime and Jon, and Dany are arguably in this category as well. Jon is almost certain to be a fire wight, and we can see the case for a fire wighting in Dany and Jaime's futures. Maybe the "dark justice" theme and fire magic have symbolic overlap? Not to go too far out on this branch, but if that logic holds, the parallel is of characters doing "good" things for "unjust" reasons being linked with ice magic...the Children, the Starks in general, the Kingsguard as echoes of the Others...
In the Mistwraith series by Janny Wurtz there's an clear example of how shadowmagic an be used to create illusions as well as being a fairly unpleasant weapon. Sucking all the light and heat out of a space and hitting the target with some -273.15C. Is GrrM going to allow his Shadowmancers the full possibilities of their power or is he still being a bit coy on the Wizard front?
The girl that bites her tongue when Varamyr tries to warg into her was trying to kill herself I'm pretty sure. She realized what was happening and tried to bite her tongue off and bleed to death to avoid having her body taken.
I think Robers reasoning in regards to the Others does not make sense. "Undoing" the magic is the same as killing them and for all we know they are sentient beings. So there is no point in saying "an open battle would send false ethical signals", because the outcome is excactly the same. You could even argue it's mass genoicide, if you really think Martin does not want to tell us that wars make somewhat sense if you just find a method to kill them outright. You EVEN could argue, that an open battle on the field is much more fair than secretly (?) stopping the magic.
Can you post your argument in a superchat in a Livestream sometime? I think you are pretty much on point. Plus Martin himself has said he isn't a complete pacifist, and he is open into a war like Rebellion that is justified. No mention that pacifist are in a lot of circumstances guilty ( unintentionally sometimes) for causing more catastrophes in already bloody wars.
@Li Robert obviously argues on the topic that Martin is a well known pacifist who also protested about the vietnam war. He is not talking about practicallity, but about ethics, the fact that "whoever is more powerfull wins is thus the justified winner" would send a wrong signal philosophicaly. It's true there are only a few Others, but my point is, that undoing the magic is the same as killing them. There are numerous live streams Robert has elaborated on this subject and it is true that this kind of approach is how Martin tackles the ethical problems of war in the realm of the living.
@@dummbobqqqqq Here is how to do a Superchat: 1. Select the dollar sign within a live chat. The live chat must be visible and mobile devices must be in portrait mode. 2. Select SEND A SUPER CHAT. 3. To select an amount, either drag the slider or type your desired value. 4. Optionally, enter your message. 5. Select BUY AND SEND. 6. To finish your purchase, follow the instructions.
@Li Yes I would agree, but my point is that Robert does not see it like that. He thinks the realm of the "human ethics" just works the same way as "The Others ethics".
As far as anyone knows, do followers of the seven, septons and septas, seem to have any magical abilities? It seems odd that they're the only non-magical religion.
I don't know if you respond to previous streams but, what do you think about something cold being sealed deep in winterfell's crypts? Which would go to explain why Winterfell was built on a natural hot spring. Not necessarily the great other but the closest thing to it in the books.
Boy that Amazon lord of the rings show it was a turn for the horrible… I hope you’re looking forward to season two of something good, house of the dragon.
I like the shorter videos where they have a point or a purpose. I really don't want to sit and listen to 3.5+ hours of banter and get only 10 minutes of anything on topic. Is there a way of filtering out all these long ass boring videos? Most movies are shorter than these.
@Robert Milton , personally i like both , think both types of videos offer different things. With the regular vids Robert seems to be focusing more on LoTR of late , putting out a vid on that stuff once or twice a week. I do like the livestreams as well but i do wish he would put out more prerecorded videos on ASoIaF like he used to.
If only three dragons can bring magic back to such a degree, then what was it like prior to the doom of Valyria? I wonder if it's the activity of The Others that's really raising the level of ambient magic and that's what allowed the dragons to be born.
Maybe? But things starting to work seem to coincide with the dragons, not the others. I mean technically the others never left but dragons did (as far as we know.).
What about the comet? Did dragons bring magic back or were they possible because magic returned (with the red comet)?
@Helena V yeah Lightbringer's theories seem sound to me
Had to take off during the stream, but glad I got to say hi to everyone! Much love IDG, can’t wait to watch all the way through
Great stream as always , magic in the ASoIaF universe is always a fascinating topic and as usual this stream did not disappoint. I personally really enjoy GRRM's take and presentation of magic in this universe ; almost all comes at a cost , it is not uber prevalent (compared to many other fantasy works) and a fair share of mystery and ambiguity attached to it on many levels.
And Robert Happy Nameday !! in the upcoming week(s) , enjoy the time off. With the consistent long hours and hard work you put it for us all producing amazing content (livestreams and all your vids) you have earned a well deserved break. Look forward to the next livestream and any content that comes out in the interim. Enjoy your holiday Robert.
Another comment for the algorithm gods! Great Livestream! Thankyou
In regards to rules based magic vs open ended magic, I prefer Jim Butcher’s statement that It depends on the point of view character. To a layman all magic would look open ended, Yet in the mind of somebody practicing it they are aware of the firm rules and limitations of each act.
Aaah yes the worlds most calming voice 😊
I love the ironic image of the Maesters in the Citadel being in the middle of saying “Oh there’s no such thing as magic” when Euron interrupts them doing blood magic that is raising Krakens.
Great discussion, Robert! Keep it going, and have a nice birthday week break!
I'd love to have "and all the rest of it" merch ;)
Ice- fire- and all the rest of it
I loved Good Omens , the book and the show! So I'm so excited for Good Omens 2 , I had no idea about it.... So thankyou for letting me know!!! Can't wait!
Another GoT and GO fan! Can't wait for season 2!
regarding Krakens: i think it's worth noting how often people eat lampreys throughout the books. (seems like the most commonly eaten dish?). Lampreys are large squid-like leech fish. I think this a clue to the nature of krakens. And when you add the amount of leeches that have been mentioned (for Melisandre's blood magic or Roose Bolton's whole thing (he constantly leeches himself. and has weird hairless puffy skin like a leech?))... Not really able to pull it all together. but often think of the lamprey and leech thing when krakens come up.
(plus, personally hoping that maesters shooting magic (like tentacles) from the giant white tower in old town (a lighthouse basically, with a shining eye at the top) will fulfill Euron's vision of a raising a giant kraken)
This was pure joy to listen to, Thank you.
I listened to the entire thing, and it took almost 2 months. lol. Very insightful answers, and I had forgotten about a lot of the things you mentioned, even though I've read the books and seen the movies. It's amazing how many details you miss.
What if Valerian steel is made with dragon blood or sacrifice. Would explain why it is so costly and no longer made.
Could listen to you talk ASOIAF all day every day
I've been falling asleep listening to his ASOIAF playlists. Best sleep I've had in a year!
Fantastic video, I really love all of your insight into the WOIAF.
As Always, I loved this stream even though it has taken me days to get through. TY!
Sometimes I put one on when I cook dinner and it really does take me a few days to run through one :P
O thank you for making things feel "normal" again. Just hearing a secret Targaryen theory gave me that feeling of well being. It's going to be okay. We're still here.
Hang in there love ❤️
@Indeepgeek next week is my birthday week too! Cancers rule! Have a great week Robert. I know I will.
I just had mine on the second! /highfive
I just finished watching but talking Beorn, Skinchangers, Werebears, actually reminded me of a thought I had last week, which is that Jon surviving intact through warging and housing his soul in Ghost is a very similar story beat to Haplo and Dog in Weis & Hickman's Death Gate Cycle. There's a few key differences Ghost functions more as a Familiar, but the parallel came to mind all the same.
I totally agree with the recommendation of Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Have you read Rothfuss’ Name of the Wind/Kingkiller series? It’s a pretty systematic approach to magic, but unique and cool.
Thanks for the awesome content
You keep mentioning, in a few videos/streams, that the measters can reforge V-Steel. i dont believe that is necessarily true. I always understood that they just have a store of V-Steel links thats are just added into their chains, just open up and close another link. it could be a rare area of study to complete a link for because they only have a small number of the links, V-Steel was very expensive even before the destruction of valyeria.
I agree with you. I don't think they reforge it, I just think they bend it a bit.
Another winning stream, mate. Have a FUN NameDay week off. Cheers! 🥂🤓
Wrt magic, it does make sense to me that intention makes it more directed, more efficient, rather than a binary necessity. Like, you accidentally do the correct thing to raise the dead and it takes a whole battlefield of sacrifice, you raise someone from the dead on purpose it takes a piece of each party's "soul" whatever that is.
If magic is natural, by which I mean baked into the world's natural laws, it makes sense it like science occassionally gets stumbled upon by accident, especially during very early pre-history when nobody knew anything yet, and then got refined over time through trial and error into the very specific "High Magic"/alchemy with very predictable results.
Which means it can be stumbled upon by accident again the only difference is you have some idea of what you've done because there's at least precedent.
A bunch of things have the structure to work like this: dragon eggs hatching/dragon bonding, king's blood as both more and less familyline specific than you'd think (doesn't matter if they'e bastards or trueborn, sometimes runs through paternal line but sometimes maternal line and sometimes both, doesn't matter who is on the manmade throne but rather something's sure magically spiked about descendants of these specific bloodlines who tend to also regularly be crowned), physical glamours (both Mel's and face changing being basically the same thing at different points on a spectrum of specificity vis a vis what you need and how much of the person you're copying you get but in a way that seems almost polar opposite to say warging/glass candles which I'd argue feel related in a similar way that Mel's glamours and face changing do. Bringing your self to someone instead of taking someone onto you.) The more you know exactly what to do, the better your outcome both in results and chance of success, but people do seem to sometimes do it by accident. If ninety nine times out of a hundred it doesn't work if stumbled through by accident, there's still that one time, right?
We’re the bones of a direwolf buried with the bones of each stark with the wolf statue next to them?
Was it common practice for the Starks to keep direwolves as pets? There seems to be some precedent with how readily Ned is persuaded to let his small children raise their own. But I don't recall if it's mentioned elsewhere if Starks of yore kept them
1:45:05 I think the magic of the First Men has more to do with the Pact at the Isle of Faces. That it was grafted into their DNA somehow in exchange for some kind of promise or service in return (likely blood sacrifice to the weirwoods - even Ned Stark cleans the blood off of his sword into the pool under the weirwood)
Would love to listen to this on a podcast format on spotify!!
Just had a thought. Thorus makes no secret of the fact he is a "bad priest" - so how likely is it that when he performed the last rite for Beric that he got the ritual mixed up with the one for resurrection... and if he realised after the fact, he is unwilling to confess his mistake. Or perhaps if he encounters a resurrected Jon and hears how it happens that is when he finds out he performed the wrong ritual?
I kind of forgot about the massive insult that was S8.
1:32:50 - "I used to do a little but a little wouldn't do it so the little got more and more..."
1:08:00 What leaf means by "the gods created the green seerers" is that they are born naturally (what we call genetics) and that they are not "made" through some use of magic or other "artificial" means....that its up to "nature" who becomes a greenseer.
Omw. Loved Good Omens! Did not know there was a show.
People in Westeros: magic does not exist
Magic: exists
People in earth 🌎🌐 medieval times: magic exists it is real
Magic: does not exist
💥💥💥💥
Love the Rift War Saga
Are the Grey Men water wights or just victims of water magic?
Ah man I have rung the bell and I didn’t get a notification:/
2bescene , happens to me all the time with so many channels , idk y RUclips is still so bad at sending out notifications , even when Subscribed and Notifications turned on.
This may have been brought up live or just sooner. In regards to the tongue biting during warging. Warging another human is a challenge, I wonder if the biting of the tongue, even inadvertently, could provide enough pain and focus the victims kind enough the drive out the warger?
2:41:40 - what manner of man is this can conjure up fire and sparks without Flint or Tinder? His name should be Tim.
amazing
Robert, I don't usually agree with you, but I still enjoy and appreciate your content bc it gets the wheels turning. :D
Re:kings blood. I don't think it actually is more potent, I think Mel just believes that it is. Bc blood magic is eastern magic and kings in westeros are anointed by the 7. If some sort of official acknowledgement isn't necessary for the magic to work, then anyone can just be like "I'm a king" and then their blood is potent. Mel also has a really loose definition of king, as she includes mance. I think maybe it's more that important leaders have a quality that makes their blood more potent. Perhaps a personality trait or the belief of the people that follow them.
I don't think something that EXISTS can just be "pushed to one side." Not permanently. It would be like trying to say that electricity doesn't exist. You might get away with it for a while, but someone someday will dredge it back up, and will PROSPER. It's "out there," just waiting for someone to pick it back up. And I'd cheer on the person doing it, because I don't believe in suppressing things. Whether I'd actually cheer would depend on what they were doing with it, of course, but I'd certainly cheer on anyone using it for benign purposes.
Over three hours!
Would you be interested in making a video on the most terrifying creatures of both ASOIAF & LOTR?
To me, the resurgence of magic was always caused by the cyclical passages of the red comet :)
Sorry if I missed it, but I wonder why discussions of the magic of the old gods never cites how the Reed children describe the powers of the magic of the crannog.
It occurs to me that just as Mel does what appear to be "bad" things for "just" reasons, so does Stoneheart. Jaime and Jon, and Dany are arguably in this category as well. Jon is almost certain to be a fire wight, and we can see the case for a fire wighting in Dany and Jaime's futures. Maybe the "dark justice" theme and fire magic have symbolic overlap? Not to go too far out on this branch, but if that logic holds, the parallel is of characters doing "good" things for "unjust" reasons being linked with ice magic...the Children, the Starks in general, the Kingsguard as echoes of the Others...
In the Mistwraith series by Janny Wurtz there's an clear example of how shadowmagic an be used to create illusions as well as being a fairly unpleasant weapon. Sucking all the light and heat out of a space and hitting the target with some -273.15C.
Is GrrM going to allow his Shadowmancers the full possibilities of their power or is he still being a bit coy on the Wizard front?
The girl that bites her tongue when Varamyr tries to warg into her was trying to kill herself I'm pretty sure. She realized what was happening and tried to bite her tongue off and bleed to death to avoid having her body taken.
I think Robers reasoning in regards to the Others does not make sense.
"Undoing" the magic is the same as killing them and for all we know they are sentient beings.
So there is no point in saying "an open battle would send false ethical signals", because the outcome is excactly the same.
You could even argue it's mass genoicide, if you really think Martin does not want to tell us that wars make somewhat sense if you just find a method to kill them outright.
You EVEN could argue, that an open battle on the field is much more fair than secretly (?) stopping the magic.
Can you post your argument in a superchat in a Livestream sometime? I think you are pretty much on point. Plus Martin himself has said he isn't a complete pacifist, and he is open into a war like Rebellion that is justified. No mention that pacifist are in a lot of circumstances guilty ( unintentionally sometimes) for causing more catastrophes in already bloody wars.
@@constantinetranos2225 sure why not :)
How does the superchat work?
@Li Robert obviously argues on the topic that Martin is a well known pacifist who also protested about the vietnam war.
He is not talking about practicallity, but about ethics, the fact that "whoever is more powerfull wins is thus the justified winner" would send a wrong signal philosophicaly.
It's true there are only a few Others, but my point is, that undoing the magic is the same as killing them.
There are numerous live streams Robert has elaborated on this subject and it is true that this kind of approach is how Martin tackles the ethical problems of war in the realm of the living.
@@dummbobqqqqq Here is how to do a Superchat:
1. Select the dollar sign within a live chat. The live chat must be visible and mobile devices must be in portrait mode.
2. Select SEND A SUPER CHAT.
3. To select an amount, either drag the slider or type your desired value.
4. Optionally, enter your message.
5. Select BUY AND SEND.
6. To finish your purchase, follow the instructions.
@Li Yes I would agree, but my point is that Robert does not see it like that.
He thinks the realm of the "human ethics" just works the same way as "The Others ethics".
As far as anyone knows, do followers of the seven, septons and septas, seem to have any magical abilities? It seems odd that they're the only non-magical religion.
He’s covered this in a stream about the religion. From what I remember, the magic is vague and involves wish/prayer fulfillment and divination.
@@cooperbentley7548 And healing on the quiet isle?
They're really boring and weak, how did the become the most prevalent religion in Westeros
@@Lawa_kun They had better weapons and armor than the first men.
@@josephbeaulieu1569 like what ??
"There's as much going on underground as overground"
Wombles in Westeros ;)
Asshai - The Place where the Sun Does Not Shine.
Is Robert an author?
I don't know if you respond to previous streams but, what do you think about something cold being sealed deep in winterfell's crypts? Which would go to explain why Winterfell was built on a natural hot spring. Not necessarily the great other but the closest thing to it in the books.
Does anyone seeing sam as the only maester to light the candle?
I D G !!!!!!!
We're talking about GRRM here. So, if you've read his other works besides ASOIAF you know the real answer is probably sci-fi based.
Boy that Amazon lord of the rings show it was a turn for the horrible… I hope you’re looking forward to season two of something good, house of the dragon.
1000th like
duncen is syro confermed!!!
Magic wasnt impressive in got , no real show , spells , portals , hiding things , transformation , time traveling...
Has anyone ever told you, you sound exactly like Phillip Schofield?
I like the shorter videos where they have a point or a purpose. I really don't want to sit and listen to 3.5+ hours of banter and get only 10 minutes of anything on topic.
Is there a way of filtering out all these long ass boring videos? Most movies are shorter than these.
Please stop doing livestreams and go back to making videos.
@Robert Milton , personally i like both , think both types of videos offer different things. With the regular vids Robert seems to be focusing more on LoTR of late , putting out a vid on that stuff once or twice a week. I do like the livestreams as well but i do wish he would put out more prerecorded videos on ASoIaF like he used to.
no.
He did a video just a few days ago!