The Acolyte: How to (NOT) Write Moral Ambiguity
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- The Acolyte has the Star Wars fandom in an uproar like never before. It fails on all levels of writing, in particular characterization and its supposed selling point: moral ambiguity.
This video is a breakdown of why The Acolyte fails and as a counterpoint, compare it with shows like Arcane who made successful attempts at moral grayness.
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According to Leslie, Sol deserves to die for being presumptive/paternalistic with Osha, but Anissa gets a pass for pushing witchery on her over protests, Horn-Mom never has it acknowledged she physically abused Mae & started a fight with the Jedi unilaterally, and Mae herself never admits nor gets called out for being creepy and possessive of her sister to the point of declaring she’d rather murder her than let her leave home, live her own life, or get an identity beyond “Mae’s wimp twin”.
For leftists, leftism is good because it leads to...more leftism. Leftists don't have objective standards or a higher authority. They measure themselves by themselves. Woke leftism is not a means to an end; it is the end. Its only goal is the realization of itself.
It's like trying to get everyone to wear yellow. Getting people to wear yellow doesn't make the world better. It only makes it yellower. That might make you happy if you like that color, but your own personal happiness is not the same thing as true progress. But for self-centered leftists and Sith, personal happiness and self-actualization are all that matter.
If Killmonger and Reva taught us anything, it is that being white is punishable by death, but gen**ide is alright as long as you're colored.
@@user-kz5gw7xe4oand what exactly is true progres?
@@_greenrunner_ Depends. In general, though, it means accepting things you don't like and understanding that you don't know everything.
@@user-kz5gw7xe4o twice the pride
double the fall
One of the biggest reasons moral ambiguity has gotten out of control is because it feels it has to exist at the expense of any and all virtue. Moral ambiguity by nature is not against virtue at all. Virtues are allowed to exist as long as they have genuine results to them. Princess Mononke is a brilliant example of this. Lady Eboshi wants to clear away a natural environment that is still populated, yes. But she does so because she wants to provide a safe haven for outcasts like lepers and prostitutes that were close to starving before she gave them a home and an occupation. In the end, both the humans and the forest lose out on what they set to achieve because they only thought to take or keep instead of giving in exchange, and they all have to start over having learned from their destructive actions.
I would even go a step further and say moral ambiguity requires virtue. Or rather, a conflict of virtues. Doing one good prevents doing another good
I think the current crop of writers somewhat think that just because the protagonist is taking action, that means it's automatically good, regardless of if there is actually virtue in their actions
Also she IS punished for her crimes, it's not like she don't learn her lesson and understand that utterly destroying the forest wouldn't help anyone
@LiNestHetalia Exactly. No one who isn't completely crazy would go through the hassle of losing a limb and decide not to reexamine their priorities.
You nailed it. Ambiguous or "grey" morality as it trends now is sadly mistaken as everyone being equally amoral. It's a mistake because it doesn't offer us lessons or reasons to root for main characters. Instead it is in its best form a clash of moralities. People trying to achieve what they deem good based on their experience and believes despite their flaws and harsh conditions, but ultimately fight each other because their goals aren't compatible, or more tragically they fail to see how they could be.
I love Princess Mononoke for that. No side is wrong, just pressured by the same inescapable reality of war. Ashitaka's greatness as a character is trying to understand both sides and lead them to a compromise.
to create good moral ambiguity story, one need to understand about moral itself. how could new writers understand that when they grew up with stories full of moral ambiguity and no one ever truly explain the clear lines to them? some are smart enough to understand by themselves, but most are not. young people nowadays grow up being taught by incompetent teacher, how should we expect anything good comes out with these kind of circumstances..
The 10 year old girl who voice acted Powder had more acting talent than the entire cast of this show combined.
The only redeeming actor was the one that did sol, originaly he didnt speak English and tried his Best with a shitty writing
I still wonder how she manages that crying scene.
How they got the pain out of that child was AMAZING! So heartbreaking 💔❤
@@emanuelbazandiaz4704that’s Lee jungjae. He was in squid game and was the main character.
@@hailey857no offense to the actor but he should’ve stayed in Korea, ain’t no good prospects in hollywood
Acolyte is not morally ambiguous, it's morally warped: Good is bad, Bad is good.
This!
From a certain point of view.
Sooooo… what I’m hearing is that they completely ripped off Arcane and still failed miserably??
Yep. Pretty much.
Imagine ripping off one of Netflix's most anticipated animated series of the decade and failing miserably at it... I would never look at myself in the mirror if I were them.
@@claritycrystal8742 100% true pal.
@@claritycrystal8742I mean the showrunner was Harvie winestines secretary so she should have not able to live with herself after 2017
One of the writers claimed that Frozen was the inspiration and you can see that in the end with May becoming the Anna to Osha's Elsa but I don't know if that is worse or better.
Honestly, Arcane is a master at Moral Ambiguity. The only two characters who I can think of as entirely "good people" are Ekko and maybe Caitlyn (Season 2 will no doubt change that). The two best examples are probably the argument between Vi and Jayce, and the scene where Heimerdinger is kicked out. All of these characters have decent arguments and you can't disagree too strongly with either of them. That's what makes Arcane special, the characters act like people would.
Totally agree, the characters in Arcane are so complex and interconnected with each other that while watching conflict happening I honestly can not think of any immediate best solution to the problem. I felt as stuck as the characters themselves.
There's also Viktor.
Ekko is debatable, imho, because he essentially uses gang violence (aka evil means) to achieve noble goals (stopping Silco and his thugs). The first time we see him and his Fireflies, they're essentially doing the equivalent of a drive-by.
@Nr4747 Wouldn't say that. They're freedom fighters who rarely employ violence and when they do, they use non-lethal weapons like crystal bombs and flares.
@benjaminthibieroz4155 Viktor is debatable due to how irresponsible he can be in his desperation.
Arcane also has a diverse cast of characters, as the Acolyte tries to make its selling point on its diversity, Arcane actually writes their characters good and complex with their own morals and conflicts . There’s complexity to them, while The Acolyte tries and fails at writing complex characters, their approach is contradictory from their dialogue and their actions. The Acolyte failed where Arcane succeeded.
This.
I think this is the difference between having diversity and being "woke."
Diversity is just that. Diversity.
"Woke" is when you try to make diversity your only/biggest selling point
@@michaelthecinebro I wasn’t calling it woke or anything, I was pointing how The Acolyte tried to sell off the show on it diverse cast rather than the story itself.
@@michaelthecinebromaking that as their selling point and only characteristic
@@michaelthecinebro what people put out in the gaming space, the fake diversity and people pushing a social agenda to fit their narrative which is causing a disconnect from the audiences.
With Arcane they give nuance and know how to write to make the characters feel real, like they are real human beings showing you their story in another world. Shows like Acolyte and stuff flowing with this, which is all for pushing what the companies envision and not what the audience wants. Arcane is a beautiful show, and I can't wait for where Christian Linke, Alex Yee, and Amanda Overton are talented and gifted writers I can learn from. And curious where they are going to take season 2 and beyond Piltover and Zaun. Yes Season 2 is the last season we will see of Vi, Jinx Caitlyn and those champions of their stories as they explore a new world in League of Legends in future installments of this show.
This is a great point. You can write in every race in the world into your story but if none of them are fleshed out, real characters, then you still don't have *any* diverse characters in your script.
See that’s the issue. There is zero ambiguity in the Sith. While you can argue the ambiguity of the dark side on a greater scal since different groups engage with the dark side differently, the Sith and their fundamental ideology is inherently corrupt and has no ambiguity. It is as every bit as evil as the Jedi think, and that’s embodied by Palpatine who embodies that ideology to his very core.
Exactly. Again, I think you could play with this concept. Especially with the codes of the Jedi not being able to form attachments or have emotions and the Sith doing whatever they want when they want. I think there's a balance between the two extremes you could explore but they did it so badly.
@@michaelthecinebroFun fact the writer of the Sith code got it inspiration from a Nazi book.
And witches are was more moraly grey with laying more on dark side of force. Now acolyte made them just bitches
@@michaelthecinebro there was a really interesting video about how the jedi and the force where presented in the original trilogy. Fundamentally, The Good Side of the Force is simply armony. A connection between everything. Everything is the same in the force. And the magic was that everyone could do it. Good Force was relationship and empathy and acceptance, even of death itself. That's why jedi are presented as the old sage, the eremit who understand and help, that asks how are you. Dark side is disruption of armony, command through power and violence. And the point is there is no good dark side of the force. Ah, it was a video about the misunderstand of grey jedi. So if you use the dark side, you cause disruption. Balance is not between light and dark side. Balance is light. It was all caused by a problem of words.
@@michaelthecinebro Someone actually analyzed the Jedi through the BITE model (used to determine if something is a cult or not). The Jedi tested positive on every single prong of the BITE model.
The Acolyte is so bad, it made the sequel trilogy look like a masterpiece
Honestly yeah. It combines the worst aspects of the sequels and the prequels to create a bottomless pit of awfulness.
@@michaelthecinebro Well, in case of Clone Wars - Republic IS a tyranny toward CIS. There is no democracy (well it is on paper only) in Republic (instead mega corps are in charge) - it just rich, fat core Worlds want continue to subjugate and continue to parasite on The outer ring worlds (or genuinely dont care to protect them against pirates and bandits )
.
CIS on contrast did not want to "rule the galaxy" - they just want to become independent nation (well, there are more nuances on both sides but this is your core goals)
.
And it hilarious how after Empire creation, we saw that CIS were right and they were a good guys there
SEQUELS BAD!! HAHAHAHAHABABA 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I agree
No I can't let you say that... The sequel stays horrible
I was placing bets on when I'd see an Acolyte comparison to Arcane using the latter as the "this is how you do it" example. I've been using Arcane (and been evangelically recommending Arcane) as "So...this is how you do siblings on the other side of the war" etc. Thank you for doing this!
You're welcome!
Bro can't even properly pronounce "Zaun".
@@corporateturtle6005 He mixed up the name with another one, give him a break.
Remember when the terrorist attack was blamed on Ahsoka in the Clone Wars? They still mostly treated her as one of them. Meanwhile here there are clear Jedi code violations and Grandmaster Yoda just allows it?! The strongest Jedi (aside from Anakin) didn't sense THIS MUCH of disturbance in the Force but he felt the massacre of the Jedi Order during Order 66, when the Dark side literally suppressed the senses of the Jedi? And what about Mundi, he has dementia now?
I don't need answers to these questions, anything after the Finale of the Clone Wars is fanfic to me (because it is)
And the movies end at the OG trilogy
Agreed. But I do like Andor though 😅
@@michaelthecinebro I'm not opposed to some series. But since I don't watch them I can't talk about those. Besides, everyone can like anything as long as it is not forced to the others
can't help but wonder what are these jedi code violations you're reffering to, it is not in character to actively ignore them.
@@thephoenix4093 in the Acolyte they could've reported any time that there may be a Sith or an evil Force user yet they decided to rush him. And Jedi shouldn't work as authority figures yet here they are not only working as a plice or military force in this series but most of them corrupt as hell. Yes, the Jedi was corrupt in RoTS but it was because they though for 3 years in a galaxy wide war, what is the reason in this past for that corruption to appear? And don't get me started on the so called meta rules George Lucas created like there's sound in space yet there's a scene in the Last Jedi where there's no sound for 10 seconds straight
The thing with Arcane is that the heroes may not always do heroic things and with the villains, even when they do shitty or morally bad things, you still fully understand why they're doing what they're doing. Like Vi is our protagonist and yet she not only hits her sister, calls her the thing that makes her insecure, and abandons her, even if it's not on purpose and even if you fully understand why she walks away. And this small act creates the monster of Jinx.
And the thing with Arcane is that you can't really fully hate anyone. Even Marcus, as reprehensible as some of the things he does are, when it comes to his daughter, you still feel immensely for him. Same with Silco, he's turning the Undercity into a drug invested wasteland, but at the same time, his motivations and anger make perfect sense and it's even more heartbreaking because he's the only person to truly love and accept Jinx as she is where her sister can't.
Arcane you can fully understand why everyone does what they do. In Acolyte, you're just baffled as to why people behave as they do.
I actually really love arcane cause all characters are understandable. I always watch people and try to understand why they do the things they do. I got autism so it's good practice to make sense of the world. And Arcane taught me so much about goals and motivations.
And then you got this show. This show makes me feel like how I feel just watching people with no particular context. It's not like you understand any motivation of anyone. It is ambiguous but not morally. It just doesn't explain it's own actions and motivations so you're left guessing. And since the human brain always thinks the worst first.... Yeah nothing good came out of it.
Thanks for respecting Marcus 😭 Not my favorite character but he still deserve some love
When I first heard of the Acolyte, I was ready to give the show a chance, even if 90% of SW since Disney bought Lucasfilm was between bad and an insult to intelligence.
And then I saw the interviews of the showrunner and the actors, and I knew that they didn't want to make a good show, but only push the political agenda and their fantasy. I still watched the 1st episode. Didn't go after, as it was so badly written that I didn't want to lose more time in it.
What Lucasfilm and Disney did to SW is criminal, not only because SW was one of the most successful franchises, but mostly because SW became a part of the human culture, that touched people all around the world.
Its crazy to think in the space of less then 10 years Star Wars went from a world wide cultural event to a bunch of streaming shows no one watches 🙁
Disney/Kathleen should be ashamed.
Hell I had heard rumors that people smuggled out and it painted a horror story of a messy development.
I'm sure Disney bought Star Wars because they thought it would be a money printer--as it should have been. Too bad they didn't understand *why* it was a money printer.
Trying to portray the dark side as a good thing is like attempting to justify the use of chaos in Warhammer. Just a picture of it is all you need to know.
These psychos would try to argue the Dark Eldar aren't so bad because
"They HAVE to do those things, it's saving their actual souls."
..... Yeah..... It's still fucked up.
People that don't know are lost, but we know what's fucked up. That's fucked up.
I could see a competent showrunner being able to put some nuance in the sith.
Headland is not competent at this by any stretch of the imagination.
@@NinjaFlibble that already exists, it's called Knights of the Old Republic. It's the last era Disney hasn't gotten around to ruining yet.
@@haku8135
Let's hope they don't.
Can see them tried to justify the Chaos god now
THANK YOU. I've been saying since the 3rd episode that this is ARCANE if the writing and cinematography was SHIT 💀
This comment make me wanna watch the show just for the giggle lol
well arcane's writing isn't that good either.
@@ryanmatthews3609 bro 💀 every second of Acoshyte was torture to watch. I've rewatched Arcane 3-4 times
@@ryanmatthews3609L opinion 🥱
@@ryanmatthews3609couldn’t be more wrong 😂
They kinda massacred my boy Sol in the writing, suddenly from episode 6 onwards, the show was trying to steer us to like the Sith and despise Sol. It really ruins the ambiguity thing when the writing clearly paint the villain.
You wanna tell me you watched this????
I can get people liking and understanding villains...but having Leslye identify with a villain that is bad "just because I want to use my power however I want" is concerning and disgusting.
I mean, she worked for Harvey Weinstein.
The romanticisation of the Sith and them “walking off into the sunset” is like an edgy murder hobo rogue in DnD claiming to be chaotic good.
The Clone Wars cartoon is better than acolyte tv series.
Well of course!
Pretty much ANYTHING is better than The Acolyte…
@@lolfreakwaca4328Go watch wrestling
A lightsaber doesn't go red when your angry, is a meditation where you force your pain and rage onto the saber. It's a big deal
I’m glad you’re comparing the Acolyte to Arcane. That way there is a say this idea can work, it just don’t use the message as an excuse for bad writing when it doesn’t work.
You said Jason mendoza, and I was like, "That's not his name.... ooohhhh"
😂 little Good Place reference
The problem with writers, like Hollywood's, is their insecurity, and they display it on film or TV shows. Acolyte is definitely one of them.
They display it but lie and say it's other peoples fault
@michaelthecinefile That wouldn't be a surprise in that analogy, and anyone can be blamed to whomever was part of the film/TV show project.
@@CamSiv996 same with arcane
Leslie said she was inspired by Frozen 😂
Specifically, inspired by her idealized version of Frozen that is a repressed lesbian incest story. Her real life sister will no longer speak to her, and that silence speaks VOLUMES in this context.
Arcane question: "Who's in the wrong?"
The Acolyte question: "Who gives a f?"
Arcane is for the viewers, Acolyte however is a show Leslye Headland created for herself, the mean theme is the "Message" everything else including LEGIT story is cast into the darkness.
correction: arcane is for the toxic fans of the toxic game (which is made by an even more toxic video game company who thinks there tough crap and all).
@@ryanmatthews3609 ok.
We aren’t sexist. We want a good written story. Stop thinking you guilt people into buying things by using a woman. If anything you are hurting the cause.
I think using your sexuality and gender to pressure others is disgusting. I mean your gender and sexuality is literally nobody's business so trying to weaponize it to threaten others is just gonna make people detest people who have similar labels but a different personality.
12:18 - the original meaning between dark and light side was very moral, not just stylistic. In short it's about how you motivate yourself. Dark side is about motivating yourself to destroy others, being better than them, while light side is about motivating yourself to help others, become the best version of yourself. Dark side is faster, but as it's fuel is hate and revenge, it leads to only more pain and suffering, while light side, fuelled by love for one self leads to more love. I think that was the original meaning behind Dark and Light side.
And this depiction is consistent with other Dark Side-centric perspectives like in Clone Wars and The Old Republic, where some Darksiders may have more reasonable or sympathetic motivations, such as ending corruption or defeating someone objectively worse than themselves, but their unfiltered ambition and vengeance comes at the expense of others around them, as ambition devolves into jealousy and greed, which eventually destroys those reasonable and sympathetic motivations and replaces them with the desire for power and the will to simply survive the corruption around them.
Darksiders like Palpatine are the strongest because they fully act on greed and ego and are willing to sacrifice anything to have power.
The Dark Side is not something that can be used for good for long, as it is innately destructive and chaotic, and it brings out savagery and malice in those that channel it.
I felt more for the Eternal Twins in the Old Republic trailer "Sacrafice" than I did in the entirety of this show. And that was only four minutes.
After about a decade and a half of GMing tabletop roleplay games for other people, I think I have come to the conclusion that we seem to have forgotten at least one key aspect of "moral ambiguity", Machiavellian types and manipulative characters; motivation.
Morally ambiguous people don't do morally ambiguous things because "reasons". They do them because they see them as the path of least resistance to their goal.
And when these characters do not have a well established goal to be morally ambiguous about, they come out as petty or pointless.
You are saying that the person who worked closely with Epstien and who may have turned a blind eye to his dubious
deeds is a Morally bankrupt person.
She worked with Weinstein. Who is just as bad.
The difference between arcane and the acolyte about sisterly bond. Vi and jinx/powder once had a good sister bond: vi who is the oldest of the group will take the fall especially when jinx got in trouble. Jinx on the other hand, she has this mentality: abandonment issues and acceptance. When vi abandoned powder, she broke down and almost harming herself right before Silco came in the picture and took her under his wing. About I guess, 10 years later jinx still have the mentality even during that day. As soon as both the sisters reunited, jinx have this jealousy when she met Caitlyn. In her head, she thinks Caitlyn is stealing or replacing her with vi. She even go out of her way to kill Caitlyn and even silco just be with vi. Also in the end (spoilers) jinx killed the councils.
Idk much about the acolyte, I only heard what the fans say about between osha and mai. Since childhood, mai was a sociopath as a girl and pretty much killed the entire covenant just because osha wants to be a Jedi. Idk, I still that story arc seems a bit eh 🤷♀️
At least, jinx admits that what she did was wrong. Unlike mai, who constantly blamed her sister for she did.
I don’t think she cared if Caitlyn died (though she wouldn't mind). Vi saying "She's my sister" and "We can just go" reached Jinx the most (in regards to Vi) because it wasn't her picking between Powder or Jinx but simply choosing her as is. When Jinx asked her to shoot Caitlyn it was to get specifically powder back and I think she wanted an "I just chose you (Pikachu)" moment and what upset her most was Vi saying "I can't" insinuating she would choose and it would be Powder not Jinx or simply her as is if Caitlyn wasn't the price. The reason I think Caitlyn is still alive is that Vi needs to choose Jinx and not simply because the other option is gone, she doesn't care if she lives or dies (though probably prefers death) just that she needs definite proof that Jinx means more to Vi than her. She shot silco for endangering vi but largely she was operating on instinct sense she was having a psychosis episode which is why she's in shock once she realizes. He gave her the acceptance as she is and not Jinx or Powder. Acceptance she was fishing for from vi. So she shoot the council as a "they can all burn, we will show them all" for Silco using the weapon.
That one trailer of Star Wars the old republic with the Eternal Empire did a good and bad twin and a toxic evil father story better than The Acolyte. Honestly the writers and headland don’t understand the Jedi,Sith and the dark side at all they want there character has all the power but without the consequences looking Anakin journey going the dark side is not worth it. Star Wars has grey areas in the galaxy but it’s still about people choosing to be good or evil.
I’ve been waiting for you to comment on the Acolyte… and this did not disappoint 🔥
I did! Hardest 8 hours of my life 😦
unlike the show🔥🔥🔥🔥
This is very high quality content! Thank you for your hard work and efforts.
Thank you very much!
As a long time Star Wars fan that was turned off it throughout the Disney years, I looked to Arcane for something different. What a show. I sometime image what a Star Wars film or TV show would be like, if written and directed by the team that produced Arcane.
jinx isn’t smart she’s geniuse like even the best scholars took like years to understand the blooprinte where jinx take probably took a few minutes to dicripte the blueprint and she use these weapons of mass destruction like her own toys that’s quit impressive
8:48 you know I remember another person who became obsessed with twins and would take them under his horrid wing…..I think he was German…..
Didn't he also have a monstrous kill count that gave him the demonic nickname the angel of death
Here's a suggestion: Primal vs. Ark the animated series (yes, that dino turd).
How did Primal succeed in the boy & his dog story, or in this case, Neanderthal and his T. Rex, whereas Ark failed.
Those are one my watchlists, its just a matter of getting to them in time
@@michaelthecinebro You can do it! As my aunt always said, “you’ll get there when you get there”.
Wait... Ark has animated series?
@sfinkspl8003 Yup! And it was awful. It's like Castlevania Nocturne, another terrible video game adaptation. They've both may look good with the graphics and animation but completely fall apart with bad writing, unlikeable characters, poor grasp of the source material, and focusing too much on politics over characters & story.
There is a difference between moral ambiguity and just straight up backwards morality. A lot of stories lately seem to mistake the latter for the former.
I honestly think these people are idiots and/or sociopaths. They see that shows like Arcane are well received, so they want to emulate it, but they never understood it.
Current Disney never fails to disappoint me, especially when it comes to starwars. Wish disney would just make a what if for starwars or how the story of starkiller and Cal. Hopefully they don't ruin the next phase of mcu since deadpool was their saving grace
Even though Star Wars is a bit of a mess right now, I’m cautiously optimistic for the future. Kennedy might not care about it all that much, but Filoni does. And although not all of his projects have been perfect, I know he’ll give it his all for his Heir to the Empire movie.
And even though the third season wasn’t as good, i absolutely love the first two seasons of the Mandalorian. So I am curious about the movie coming up.
And then there’s Andor season two. So of course I’ll stick around for that.
But after all of that, I think that’ll be enough Star Wars content for a lifetime, thank you very much.
Hmm, idk for sure.
I love the stuff he did with the Clone Wars but I think he's kind of a one trick pony. He was able to validate the prequels for a lot of fans because there was great stuff in there, it was just bogged down with terrible writing on Lucas's part.
My thing is, Lucas is an idea man, not a detail man. Dave is a detail man, not an idea man. I think he's in a little over his head but who knows? Maybe his movies will be good
Maybe. I’m just trying to be optimistic. And hey, Heir to the Empire is already a book. Maybe he can get some ideas from there.
Whatever happens, his movie is probably where I’ll stop. As much as I love Star Wars, there has to come a time where you have to say enough is enough.
Acolyte was made under Filoni
I also believe you are making Kennedy too much villian, I definetly she isn't running around and screamin "Put a chick in it and make her lame and gay!"
Maybe she is overhated, but she is definitely not blameless.
And hey, maybe I am wrong about Filoni. Maybe his movie will be horrible. But like I said, I want to be optimistic. So let’s just hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
Dave filoni is more of Disney mind set, he doesn't understand half of what makes star wars itself, and is arrogant enough to take choices he never should had.
Video idea: Invincible vs The Boys: Diabaolical. How to (not) make a comi book adaptation
I've thought about that. I'd have to see how Invincible goes though. Right now it's good, like The Boys was, but there is always the possobility it goes downhill as the series continues.
@@michaelthecinebro dern
@@michaelthecinebro If it keeps staying very similar to the comics, like it has been so far, i don't think it will
Boys diabolical were just short stories for laughs
Mando season 3 was ruined, because they thought Mando having the darksaber meant he was taking a position from a woman on the corporate ladder
It sounds like they're basically trolls doing the whole, "Oo, I'm so edgy, I'm going to pretend that evil is good" thing. It's boring and worn out.
There are certainly ways they could address the morally gray areas in the Star Wars universe. Judging by the prequels, there were very good reasons that people were frustrated with the Republic and susceptible to Palpatine's machinations. Get into the fact that the Republic was not only allowing slavery to continue in the Outer Rim--they seem not to have cared one way or the other--but that they actively prevented Anakin from going back to do anything about it. Get into the fact that the Jedi have separated themselves so far from real life that they don't understand a kid who is worried about his mother, and who tell said kid that worrying about his mother is a path to the dark side. Get into the unchecked rage that can happen, which is attracted to the Sith.
And, FFS, stop treating the Dark Side and the Light side as different entities. The whole point is that they are the two sides to power--one using it responsibly and mercifully, the other using it to lash out in rage or ambition. And absolutely point out that no one is immune from the temptations of the Dark Side. These are not two warring factions where both have good points. These are the essential pulls on the inside of every human (well, sentient, in the setting) heart. Will you do what is right? Or will you give in to the desire to hurt and destroy? The moral universe is not "complex." There is right and wrong. But every individual in it is complex, because there are reasons that they might go either way, and you can absolutely understand why Anakin went into a rage, even as you're saying, "No, stop."
If Lesyle Headland with her comments about George Lucas made perfect clearly that she doesn't have any respect for George, why people still thinking that Acoytle could have been worked? Is kind of obvious that she didn't see Star Wars or didn't get it, just like David Gordon Green when he put Ellen Burstyn to say that stupid phrase in the Exorcist believer.
If you hire someone who doesn't have any kind of respect for the original material, it can be hard that a good project came up.
the boys show doesn't hold respect for the original material and scrape of most of the original message, tell me to the face that it's a bad show i dare you
@@hasanmuttaqin464 At least the showrunner from that show didn't think that he was better than the original creator. Thing that Lesyle Headland did, the only impression that she gave me is that she was terrible envious of George Lucas.
Why should I give a chance to someone who thinks that is better than the original creator and also shows that she's envious of him?
A Good lesson to Disney, next time? Don't hire envious people.
Huh, apparently if you want the audience to feel sorry for separated siblings or interested in the side character’s motivations, you give the siblings a reason to separate and the side character a reason for his motivation. Who knew?
One actor involved with The Acolyte show said the best part about Star Wars is that there is no good or evil, which I and a lot of other people found to be cringe, which George Lucas literally said Star Wars was about if I were a good person or not.
Arcane really is the standard by which all modern writing should be judged. In addition to telling an amazing story with amazing characters steeped in nuance and depth, it also happens to feature many incredibly strong female characters and has pretty much every representation box checks. HAPPENS to have, being key, because none of that is the backdoor reason for writing it in the first place. It manages to fulfill everything the woke mob CLAIMS they want without shoving an agenda down people's throat (which is what the woke mob ACTUALLY wants).
Arcane is really is exceptional on every single level. I feel lucky to have been alive when it was crafted. Can't wait for season 2!
4:28
For those who dont get it,in one of the interview they said Witches were still alive(ıf memory serves).
So thecnically Jedis did NOT lied about the subject.
You know, I like that you made a comparison between Acolyte and Arcane. I like Arcane better because it is well written. I hope that the top brass of Disney can pay more attention and open up to different opinions so that their TV shows and movies are more successful.
please the writers at riot couldn't even bother to write which galaxy the main setting is in.
@@ryanmatthews3609 What do you mean?
The acolyte could’ve made the motive of the girl who didn’t want the other to leave, into something less selfish. If the girl had some knowledge or believes around the Jedi order about how their practice of taking kids and teaching them to so strictly control their emotions. Then she would of her actions would have been less shtty. Better yet she could have been given this info by a sith who is manipulating her to groom her into being they student.
Idk their names so bare with me. But imagine if the sith girl was initially supportive of her sister but reluctant to be left alone. Then once the Jedi tells the Jedi girl that she can come with them, sith girl is approached by the sith who tells her about the jedis teachings. This leads to sith girl being more rebellious against Jedi girl leaving and she ends up still locking Jedi girl in her room but the fire will be a byproduct of this maybe an unattended candle or something that would have been prevented other wise, this allows the blame to still be placed sith girl and could also place the blame on Jedi girl depending on the origin of the unattended flame . This makes sith girl less outright malicious. Yet the Jedi girl could believe this was a selfish act by sith girl rather then being in what sith girl believes is in Jedi girls best interest. Then when the both fall they are saved by their future teachers jedi girl believing her sisters died and sith girl believing she was abandoned. This could make a story that compare the sith and jedi. Highlighting their similarities.
3:12, 5:53, Both sisters being treated as having responsibility in what went wrong, Power for her desperation to be accepted leaving her family destroyed and Vi for letting her rage and ego destroy their relationship, leaving Powder vulnerable to Silco.
Both sides of a conflict being able to share responsibility in tragedies that occur is something the Acolyte doesn't fully understand, as it barely acknowledges the Brendok coven (and by extension, Mae) as having any responsibility for their questionable aspects, how wrong their jealousy and possessiveness towards their children was (their treatment of them as more like religious symbols than people), how them telepathically attacking Torbin contributed to the conflict, how they hypocritically weaponize their powers repeatedly despite claiming that isn't their purpose.
The audience is intended to think only the Jedi have responsibility, that Mae only made harmless mistake because she "loved" Osha, that Osha being corrupted by rage and hatred for Sol in response to learning the truth is empowering, not a manipulation from Mae and Qimir to have her on their side.
Osha mainly chose the Jedi to escape her possessive sister and the coven (conflating the goal of escape with the Jedi), and unlike the Mae or the coven, Osha is allowed to leave when she wants, is allowed peace that Mae ruins by indirectly dragging Osha into her mess, all of which she's just forgiven for.
It's classic Darksider tendencies, ego, jealousy, spite, but treated as good, such as with the supposed "positive corruption arc" for Osha, and not part of the reason why the Brendok Coven lost everything, how them acting purely on desire, ego, fear, anger and hatred destroyed everything they had (and Mae somehow burning down a stone building).
Even Aniseya is guilty of this, as she chose to transform into black Force ichor and provoke Sol into attacking to defend against this unknown ability, so it doesn't matter if she was going to release the girls because she didn't just say it when she easily could have).
8:27, Sol is in the wrong for getting too attached to the girls (and not just aiming his Force Grip at the girls and not the heavier platforms), girls that are so disinteresting to the audience that it's odd to see any character be so emotionally invested in them even with the unnatural nature of their existence, even if removing them from an abusive home wasn't a bad motivation, but when we the audience are expected to feel complete disgust and joy at his death and posthumous humiliation, than the creators simply fail to understand how to portray moral complexity or ambiguity, made even worse by how empty, overtly malevolent, uninteresting or annoying the characters we are intended to route for are, characters who are never really made to take any responsibility for their actions or flaws, characters the audience are meant to think are ultimately righteous and virtuous.
Arcane is such a good story. I've never played League of Legends but I was hooked on the show.
The morality of The Acolyte does beg the question: how does the showrunner view the crimes of her former boss?
Talk about Andor more in another video, please! I love that series to death!
Hey, I really liked your material and your work in general. Could you (if you agree with my opinion) do a material why Qimir is a worse written villain than Kylo Ren? I'm really surprised that there are a lot of people on the Internet (especially on Twitter) who think that Qimir is not only a well-written character but is also a much better villain than the character of Kylo Ren from the sequels. To develop my thought, I will give a comparison to Qimir from Acolyte and Kylo Ren only from TFA. In part 7, Kylo is initially presented as Vader's successor who wants to continue his legacy and the very idea of the Empire. We know what he wants, which is a map to Luke. Then we learn that he is the son of Han and Leia and that he is responsible for another fall of the Jedi Order, which raises interesting questions, why Ben went to the other side of the force and whether he knows that his grandfather went to the light side of the force before his death. In the third act of the film we see how he kills his father and despite the conflict how far he is willing to go. Not to mention the fact that before the fight with Rey he is very scary and you feel a threat from him. On the other hand, Qimir is a character whose motivations we never know. Something says that the evil system discriminates against him as a user of the dark side of the force, but you don't care about that from the mouth of a cold murderer who we don't know about since he taught Mea, why he requires her to kill one Jedi without a weapon, why he wants to kill Jedi, how he recognizes Osha in episode 2, why he is so keen for her to join him and anyway what role does he have in this series
The funny thing is, the show has to add rules to the Jedai code to make some of them seem more evil. Like the whole "A jedai does not draw their weapon unless they intend to kill" That has never been a thing but it's used to try to imply that Sol and the first Jedai to die are more morally ambiguous. Add on the fact that Osha spends about 2 minutes mourning the loss of her friend before sexy boy Sith tells her that it's ok because he's sexier. Not to mention most of the first half shows that she's a genuinely good person but that's also supposed to go out the window when she becomes a Sith. May or the horned mother never get called out for being the ones to basically tell all the witches that they have to fight to the death, and the Sith master is never really compared to Sol when he manipulated May into being a killer and did much worse things then Sol but gets away with not being the one responsible for the death of Osha's mother. So the narrative just nods and says he's "better".
Honestly, I kept asking myself why Osha didn't just kill the Sith guy and why she would go with him to train to be a sith and abandon her sister. Also the funniest part is they did all of this to try and make it all just Star Wars Frozen but at least it's not renewed for another season.
I really don’t know why they didn’t have both Sol save both. Literally, he could have. Starkiller rips an ENTIRE STAR DESTROYER out of the sky, Yoda lifts an x-wing, and Sol can’t save two girls?
Comparing Arcane to The Acolyte is like comparing the Joker in The Dark Knight to the Joker in Suicide Squad. Yah, it can be done...and I'll leave it there.
Both my wife and I cried for Silko's death and Jinx's turmoil.
As a League of Legends player who already knew the lore of these characters, I was genuinely floored by how well written Arcane was.
I've always loved movies and stuff but, yet Arcane, a show based on a game with pretty limited and mediocre lore, might be the best written origin story of already existing material I've ever seen.
5:55 Well I mean like that could still work (With an actual good writer of course)
@@hhowdy I think that statement applies to the whole show 🤣
@@michaelthecinebro Yeah lol
The Acolyte is an embodiment of moral nihilism imo.
while arcane is an embodiment of ego and pride.
As a 10+ years league player even with the disclaimer I twitched physically every time I heard Zion
You're so right, so well explained. Thank you. Leslye Headland looks like a Sith who lost his master. She really doesn't understand human relationships neither difference between duality and values. Spending her time to explain in interviews what she should have showed us in the screen reveals her incompetence. All that is a big waste of time and money.
The problem starts with the writers. They lack a moral compass to write a story like this.
What could be an interesting story/ source of trauma is what happens when someone who is promised the world as a prospect Jedi fails to live up to their potential. The core thus revolving around, predatory scouting practices of Jedis (taking in guillable children with potential), ambition vs family and other emergent themes.
Also just seeing a Jedi express a motivation based on so much emotion doesn’t make any sense knowing what we know about Jedi in general. Also, I love Arcane. Such a fantastic show and I’m so excited for season 2
i love how people use jinx to compare how to do good writing to bad writing.
Dude The Acolyte could have been so cool. Imagine a show about a Jedi working to discover who has been killing other Jedi whoch inevitably lead to the discovery of what will happen in a few hundred years. It could be so cool if the Jedi found Plaguis and actually talked to him about his plans. But no. We did not get that
"Could this change with future seasons?"
I have some news.
If everything is morally ambiguous, NOTHING IS Morally ambiguous
Arcane = serie made with passion
Acolyte = serie made with DEI
I object sir. Jecki, is both competent and forthright. She's the only one, but she's there.
She’s honestly way too competent. She went from training with a stick to fighting off a Sith Lord who had just killed several Jedi knights simultaneously. That’s like going from riding a bike with training wheels to competing in Red Bull Rampage - within like 3 episodes.
Acolyte is a show that both sux and blows at the same time. It's written by 12 year olds who are trying to impress a 10 year old audience.
'Arcane' is outstanding on every level. I would also recommend 'Cyberpunk Edge Runners' and especially 'Blue Eye Samurai'. All written by people who understand how emotions and motivations work.
Arcane is such a masterpiece, my sister and I have never played LoL but we still cried when Silco died
Instead of the Acylote. They should have made a full blown mini series of the main character of Star Wars Visions, Season 2, episode 2, Screechers reach!
I haven't watched the show but seeing her bleed the kyber crystal so easily is kinda ridiculous. In the comics, Vader stuggled a lot to bleed his crystal and was almost tempted back to the light side by the crystal. In the show, we see no struggle from the kyber crystal to resist the bleeding, it just happened.
the best way to lean in the the moral ambiguity of jedi and sith, jjjust go off the facts that jedi don't want to feel as that can lead to darkness and sith gain power from emotion, yes sith often and mostly go down the rotue of power corrupting but emotion isn't bad and not feeling can be
boom done
My video suggestion. How to NOT write a 'Girl Boss'.
I think the character that someone may call a 'Girl Boss', with a background that makes sense is Revy from Black Lagoon anime/manga.
Early on, we learn about her working for the mercenary company called, well, Black Lagoon. Early on she's abrasive, vulgar, and aggressive, although she's also presented as a badass in one of the first scenes where they have a job to kill a Neo-Nazi group, as she is really good at killing people. But her character makes sense, in a cutthroat world where anyone may kill you out of nowhere, in the middle of fighting and killing most ruthless criminals around. Also she's an ex-prison inmate, so to survive she needed to be, well, tough person to break. So her being a 'bitch' makes sense with this background.
And again, she's nasty and rude to almost anyone, no matter their gender and their background. But later on slowly, very logically, starts changing when the group hires, although it would make more sense to say 'kidnap and adopt later on' so to speak a character called Rock, who was an ex-Japanese businessman on the business trip, later on abandoned by his own employers, once he realized they wouldn't pay off the ransom of him being kidnapped by Revy (and Black Lagoon by proxy) as they were hired to get the disk his company told him to hold it on.
Rock is a genuinely empathetic person in the cutthroat criminal world, which gives him a unique talent of being good at diplomacy. But someone this 'soft and kind hearted' is not someone Revy would like. And she doesn't at first, coming from a completely different background.
But slowly later on she realizes that in some cases Rock can be right, so she softens up a bit. The thing here is that even someone with so many negative qualities like Revy can be presented as a character that many fans liked, as she still had some little positive qualities (which modern girl bosses tend to not have), and she was a badass in great action scenes of the show. And again, she never cared about politics, and never 'favored' any group over the other. Either she hated everyone (with very few exceptions) or liked/respected very few that were worth her time. And actually she could be respectful towards her boss, and if you were good at you were doing - she could actually appreciate it in her 'standoffish' way.
And man, this show deserve some younger animation fans/manga readers to be reminded of it.
I was commenting on a whole bunch of videos by a few different creators about the Arcane/Acolyte parallels, and that the former is the show that latter should've taken a whole lot of lessons from. So pleased to see someone make a video on this!
people dont hate diversity. we've all grown up with countless fantasy universes featuring countless alien civilizations with vibrant cultures.
look at league of legends, look at all those vibrant clothing styles and characters. its the main reason people like the ip
Honestly, Arcane should be a case study on story writing. I was hesitant watching the show, because I don't play LoL, and didn't know wether I'd like this animation style. I only watched it because people seemed to rate it highly. For 9 episodes of 20-25mins, it does everything it needs to do. I have it rated 10/10 on my rating list, and I rate almost everything between 4 and 7. It's rare for me to rate movies and shows 8 or 9, but this show just does everything well. It's hard to find something where you end up binging it, but this show I binged.
This is a great comparison.
Thank you!
Everything up to the point you commented about dark vs light is on point the sith are way cooler and alot of people prefer them than jedi
Had this convo few years back on swtor the mmo of why the sith faction has more people and the result was do you want to rp as sith that shoot lightning or as Jedi that throws rocks etc
i think the problem is how they responded in the interview. People like to do sin because it's fun for that season, but rarely you want to engulf yourself. And the question wasn't a videogame were there was no real consequence.. In real life you can choose to be a sith or a jedi who would you join? that was the interviewer's question.
Thanks for your analysis. Arcane is one of the best TV series I have watched in recent years. Acolyte's writers could have borrowed a page from Arcane instead of their Sith apologia.
Jason Mendoza's Character: From my point of view JACKSONVILLE RUUUULES!!!
When I was watching the Acolyte, I thought I was watching a high school play by a junior drama class...that's how bad it was.
I understand why the narrative was broken up but I think it would have been a lot more effective if they just started with the event on Brendok and followed the events chronologically.
It got canceled so it was a saving grace
i saw it end? acolyte
Good video, BUT there is something false. You said that showing moral ambiguity for the Jedi is good. Technically yes, BUT the Jedi are objectively good people. They had problems but they are good. It makes no sense to show the Jedi as bad people. Only because Headland thinks she needs to put her political opinion in her show. You do talk about this later in the video but some thing you said in the beginning are not exactly true
What I learned from this video The Acolyte has the same writing problems The Last of Us Part II did
Great video. small correction: Zaun rhymes with lawn (not zion)
I hope you see this coment because I'm very curious about one thing, at 11:50 its said that not a single Jedi who is portrayed as a good person, and among those flaws you listed "Incompetent"
It just struck me that, its not the first time I see a english speaking video portraying incompetence as a moral flaw. Wich I find weird because on my culture, Incompetence is treated more as deficiency then a moral flaw.
I am misreading this or american treat incompetence as a moral flaw?
In my opinion incompetence usually isn't a moral flaw, but it can be treated as one depending on the responsibility of the person in question. In the case of Jedi, incompetence is immoral because incompetent Jedi cause huge problems for innocent people.
In one sense, it’s bad to be incompetent because that allows other people’s evil choices to have a greater effect than if those effects were prevented.
But I think the reason it’s pointed out here is that, while not directly a moral failing, portraying the jedi as incompetent is still an insult to them and to the real life fans who have certain expectations of that organization at this point in the timeline. Essentially this show drags our heroes through the mud by presenting them in every negative light they could think to include.
Didn't bother to finish watching Acolyte. But seriously there are very few shows as good as Arcane. Very few.
Moral ambiguity is bad when it becomes a veil to hide bratty behaviour. Behaviour where the character is removed from the weight of the decision making. The stress of making difficult choices, the weight of its impact and consequences and the responsibility to learn amd grow with those decisions to be better. Adding to it, the self important attitude of the character along with plot armors and not learning anything at all makes it seem more frustrating due to emotional and mental immaturity of the character.
Naruto was bratty in the start thats why his goal of becoming hokage sometimes felt more of a cringey annoying statement. But during chunin exams, during the various battles with mist village swordsman, akatsuki and sasuke leaving the village arc, after time skip during various training sessions and battles, we could see a transformation in his mentality. A certain maturity as well as a calmness in attitude towards his world, its people and understanding of its nature. Thats why, when he states his goal for becoming hokage and peace for ninjas across the world, again in front of raikage while negotiating for sasuke it hits different.You start to root for him because you see that he is serious and genuine in his desire. We see that he understands the weight of his choice, responsibility of his goal and challenge of his chosen task. But modern characters seem like Jeoffery was made to be the main character and therefore the plot, the characters and the story is build around their delusional belief for their strengths and qualities which fuels their arrogance and ignorance towards their decisions, actions, consequences and the challenges of others around them, all while making excuses for their bad behaviour at all times like a mother spoiling her kid rotten go the very core.
Arcane does good job because every character has different motivations, different considerations as well as different moral codes. They dont villify each other for their stances more than what you would expect them to do as per their character. Their are no overzealous righteous guys but their are no absolute evils who commit horrendous crimes for fun. Every action has meaningful motivation behind it. It can come from greed, lust, love, kindness, hate or any other place but it is not comitted in vain to make a forceful statement. The characters aalso take themselves and their world seriously, it really does feel like you are just looking at a distant world where the people are really livong their lives this way. Its sincere to itself and to its world. The decision making by any character is also in line with their personalities and their situations. They dont make out of the blue , and putlandish decisions on a whim. And best of all the characters feel the world itself by literally living in it. The dirt, air, water, pollution, people and corruption, love and hate and everything else. They feel the remorse over their decisions, frustration over their outbursts and failures, sadness, contemplate life and so much more. Everything feels part of the ecosystem, natural and flowing smoothly from A TO B like the real world. The story and various events are not jarring (broken or forced together), everything comes together neatly allowing us to immerse in the story and not be frustrated with eyesore of a scene (so to speak), that breaks our concentration on the story and the characters in focus.
Also its hard to feel for someone whose decision making process is a little bit more than "i can do this because its ME, and unlike you I AM JUST BETTER AT EVERYTHING"
The first 10 or 20 minutes of the Acolyte, I thought adult Osha and Mae were the same person, that the violent trauma of her twin and parents dying created a split personality in her. The Jedi and Sith divided by who is in charge of the body.
It would have set up the Jedi internal schism of wanting to punish Osha for Mae's crimes, and Sol + his friends believing they can save Osha with mercy and love.
Sol decides to continue Osha's training, controversially at the risk of making the Sith Mae personality stronger if he fails to redeem her.
The show becomes a struggle for Sol to explain the virtues of Jedi , the same Jedi who now treats them as dangerous criminals and will stop them at any cost - including killing them. Meanwhile Mae continues to get stronger, taunting Osha about their past trauma, until Mae goes back to her space witch home to learn the truth. The same home that Sol chases her to, and where he will meet his end.
Ironically as they run from the Jedi, who hunt them down, when Sol is cut down by the jedi while protecting her, it becomes the trigger for Mae to become the dominant personality, and her training jnder Sol turns her to the stranger cutting down the jedi death squad and escaping.
Cut to venestra lying that osha had killed Sol? Maybe who knows. This show stole 5 hours from my life, and I'm letting it take even more now....
The problem with the writers is that they are writing what they think morally ambiguity is which is not that morally bad.
My understanding of the force:
The force dosent have a lightside but it has a darkside. While the darkside will give you power, that power wont help you save the peapol you want and it will result in sadness witch lead to anger and that anger will keep you from happiness.