Aeolus was too good to be true? "You just broke into my house, here's a bag that will solve all your problems, aren't I so kind and funny and helpful?" Vs "Wow, you're doomed. Here's something to give you a bit more of a chance. Still might die though. Oh well. I'll bring popcorn." It's a lot in the tone as well as the lyrics. Hermes lets you in on the joke, while Aeolus keeps her inner monologue to herself.
@@colt1903 it's not even meant to be in the air😭 Jorge misunderstood the floating Island; it was meant to be an Island that just floats in the water (same concept as vanishing islands)
Btw, Hermès is kinda like an advocate for chaos. He could genuinely help someone "just cause." or "This might be fun." Also, Hermes is kind of Odysseus' great grandfather I think
Ehh yeah its more like a 'kind of' thing. In the Roman Version, and in another translation, he is the grandfather of Odysseus. But in other translations, such as the original translation of the actual story of The Odyssey, Hermes simply favored Odysseus' grandfather. Its a bit hard to tell if Hermes is related to Odysseus or not at this point, but I personally think its just kind of up to what people interpret as correctly in their eyes since I honestly dont know what the 'right' version is./lh
It would be cool if he was his great grandfather, but I’m OK with him just being a really gifted human that some God’s really like and some gods hate like every other Greek hero
it's also worth mentioning that he's a patron god of travellers among other things, so Odysseus is kinda the perfect traveller for him to be a patron of considering how long he takes to get home
You are correct, its been 10 years not 12. Jorge made a mistake and didn't notice until later. Now its like a head canon that Polities kept track of the calendar and such.
i think the reason you trust Hermes is because he isn't asked for help or offers a condition for helping. Athena tells us why she wants to help Odysseus and gives the consequences of her more strict teachings Aeolis was asked to offer help and still turned it into a game.
@@JacobPenrodWrites It may also be because Ody gets all the terms of the agreement with hermes in exchange of a dubiously helpful buff, while Aeolus offered a Deus Ex Machina, Solves all his problemes, with a simple win condition. She gives you dreams in the same way a shitty movie producer would when they say they'll make you a star. They are both not taking the situation seriously, But Aeolus is doing it at the expense of Ody, expecting perfection, Hermes let luck sort this conflict by simply evening the ground between them. "Yopu very well may die", he doesn't care if ody dies from this, yet he still has the generosity give him a chance, why Aeolus sabotages the game in her amusement's favor. For the Cyclops summon, yes! it is Cannon! Ody summoned the scariest beast he knows, and that's a cyclops, not even a sea monster, but the thing that killed the first of his men in 10 years of war
@@JacobPenrodWritesanother thing is how trusting ody is with Hermes! By the time the circe saga starts, viewers understand that Odysseus knows when he's in danger or not (the danger motif) and when he how few questions he asks hermes the only person he didn't ask as many questions to is polites in open arms.
So Jorge confirmed in one of his shorts that, yes, Ody canonically summons a Cyclops against Circe. He says it's because the Cyclops is the monster Odysseus is most familiar with, knowing their strengths and weaknesses - strong but slow, devastating when he has any ranged options (in fact, in the official animatic commissioned by Jorge, the Cyclops struggles until it summons a club to knock out the Chimera)
In the least spoilery way possible - fidelity is actually very important to this story. Personally, i actually see Odysseus saying "let us puppets leave" as the very first time he actually humbles himself - because the ONE time he's willing to do that is directly after mentioning Penelope. It may sound extremely romantic, but thats kinda the point i feel :P I also believe that in Just A Man, hes being entirely sincere when he says all he does is for his son and wife. I suppose the best thing for me to say is that above all else, the Odyssey is a love story.
Being distracted by how good Talya/Circe is at singing is so real. Ody not cheating on his wife is like one of the diffrences from the orginal Odssey i like, i think it makes him not only more likeable but also well i do belive his motvation isnt as selfsih as this videos tries to make him, his core motvation is his son and wife and loyalty to them.
That makes sense! I want to clarify what I mean by "selfish" - I'm not using it as a criticism or moral judgment. Rather, I see Odysseus as someone who deeply and genuinely loves Penelope and Telemachus while ALSO being driven by his own needs for stability, control, and survival (values that relate to 'the self' which is why I am saying self serving or selfish). What makes him such a fascinating character is that these motivations aren't contradictory - they're layered and intertwined. His love for his family is authentic and powerful, but it's not the only force driving him. I think his love for his famil and desire to get home is both a genuine goal and a shield for his other motivations. I don't think this makes him less compelling - if anything, it makes him more human. He can be both deeply loyal to his family and driven by self-preservation. Both his noble and self-serving impulses can be true at once.
@@JacobPenrodWrites I've found myself to agree with a lot of what you think and speculate, tho the only thing I do think you might be reading to much into is his love and yearning for his family (not the fact that he IS using Penelope as an anchor an IS his safety), he does miss them dearly, love them and wants to return to be by their side. In the musical in full speed ahead he says he hasn't changed as a person, here applies what you said bout 10 years changing people, which is right, and would be addressed later on. Edit: On the actual Odyssey he didn't want to go to war, and went as far as to fake being crazy until they threaten his son, tho it's not addressed in the musical, that is why it's made so clear in the musical his love and yearning for his family.
@@dafnemejia3946 Entirely possible! The way my brain tends to work on first watch-throughs is that I read too much into a billiion different things and then after the seeing everything and having the full landscape of the story I am able to trim the fat and refine a full theory. So what you are hearing from me is very raw and messy. I anticipate I will have a more nuanced view of the story by the time I finish!
actually, he didn't cheat in the original. he was coerced into sleeping with her (hermes told him to do everything she wants him to, he only did that to save his men)
Even in the Odyssey Odysseus was basically forced to give her children, he was also graped by Calypso for 7 years and forced to give her children as well. Even in Ancient Greek Myth Ody is a loyal man to the end.
"Why do I trust Hermes?" Because you glossed over one of his first lines. When Hermes is introducing himself to Odysseus, the first thing he describes himself as is a friend, which is exactly what Odysseus was looking for in his relationship with Athena but is also exactly what we need to hear for us to also trust him as nobody else has said that this far.
So a few fun facts. Jorge (the author and Odysseus voice actor is dating Talya, they met after she auditioned and got the role of Circe and they just celebrated their 2 year anniversary which makes the fact that he wrote "our fates are intertwined, they're attached" before he knew her kinda funny or maybe is just my romantic ass speaking. Also, the 12 long years line was a mistake, Jorge was supposed to say 10 long years but got it wrong 😂
@@RealPendragonOdysseus stayed a year with Circe. Wikipedia is confident they had 3 sons and 1 daughter together, while listing 6 different characters as their sons
So, I think this saga is a case of your overanalysis getting in the way of the narrative. While there are some ways in which Odysseus definitely _is_ self-serving, his love isn't one of them. Even from the beginning, the story has established that Penelope is _the_ thing that Odysseus cares about. It's _not_ just about "comfort" or "control". It's _her._ Penelope is irreplaceable in Odysseus' life. He would do anything, even something terrible and reprehensible like murdering a child, for the sake of being with her, and that's the context you have to take with you through the story. More than control, more than comfort, more than his own self image, the thing that Odysseus is most desperate for _is_ Penelope. Everything ties back to that. He'll take any risk, pay any price, if it means getting home to her, and all of his self-delusion comes down to needing to believe that he's still worthy of being her husband - that she'll still love him when it's all over.
He is also saying what you are saying, but again his defence is that whatever he is saying about control and comfort is what he feels is happening subconciously on odyssesu as a character, of course odysseus still love penelope and that family is his main force to keep going despite facing a lot of problems, which is what is happening conciously, he is not denying this fact, he is just adding besides this fact he feels like there are things happening deeper, ofc this is his opinion that is valid since this musical is open for any intrepertation. While i do think what jorge choose as the outcome is better for the sake of odysseus as the main character for us and ofc i prefer ody to be a man wife's, but its really interesting if you think about it the way he is intreperting it, i mean the end always justify the means, if sleeping with her is the only way to get home and see his wife again, an alternate ody might do it, who knows 😅
While I suppose you could make an argument for Ody cheating, though Circe is a powerful enchantress/goddess so consent is dubious at best, I don’t think it really works for this instance. Circe only helps Ody (in EPIC at least) because he proves to her he’s NOT like all the other men she’s come across (who she views as pigs that’ll assault her nymphs) so seeing Ody resist her and talk so lovingly about his devotion to his wife, changes her perspective. If he’d actually cheated on Penelope here, Circe was planning to just kill him when he kissed her.
That is an excellent point and I hadn't considered it! I don't really have any context on Circe's backstory and motivations other than what was provided in the confines of the musical itself, and I wasn't sure how accurate the animatic was, so I didn't pick up on that. So while I still find it interesting to consider how accepting her advances aligns with his psychology, I hadn't full internalized the plot ramifications if that is indeed Circe's motivation.
@@JacobPenrodWritesYeah they don’t flat out say it, but that’s what the lyric “The last time we let strangers live we faced a heavy loss” implies. That strangers came to her island before, and they assaulted her nymphs. So now she takes EXTREME preventative measures to protect them from harm.
@@JacobPenrodWritesYeah the lyric “The last time we let strangers live we faced a heavy loss” implies men came to her island before, and assaulted her nymphs. So now Circe takes EXTREME preventative measures to protect them.
@@JacobPenrodWrites gigi's animatic is surprisingly close to canon! in jorge's script (shown in his livestream for the last saga), circe indeed has a dagger she was planning to stab odysseus with as they get closer, only to hide it when odysseus resists her advances. edit: i forget gigi is one of the ogs who tuned in to jorge's livestreams with the script saga after saga, so it's safe to say she gets Circe as a character down and follows her animatics after the canon events closely.
@@JacobPenrodWrites Jorge and Talya also acted out the first verse There Are Other Ways right down to having a plastic spork as a dagger/sword that he was originally holding and she managed to take from his hand and have held to his back without him even noticing during the seduction bit haha.
His love for Penelope is the only genuine thing about Odysseus. You are right on with your assessment otherwise but trust in his love for Penelope. It's kinda the point of his character
34:40 not only is it a “men are pigs” thing but this section of the Odyssey is literally the origin or at least earliest writing of that connection and saying.
Would just like to clarify something here; the “men are pigs” statement in the odyssey does not have the same context as it does in today’s society. Whereas “men are pigs” is nowadays used in the context of men being sexually deviant animals who can’t control themselves, in Ancient Greece to be a “pig” was to simply be lazy. Circe’s implied past SA was completely made up by Jorge. In the Odyssey she did it just because she could
@@emerson4140tbf, Circe is not only a creation of the Odyssey, for what i remember she changed those who offended her. And she didn't only change them into pigs, but a variety of "beasts"
@@emerson4140wasnt that an actual thing tho? From what I remember in Circe canon, she was taken advantage of by sailors who'd pass by her island during their travels, wether it be stealing her treasures or... doing stuff to her or the Nymphs that was banished to her island. Eventually, tired from beint taken advantage of, she fought back and cursed the next group of sailors who tried to take an advantage of her or the nymphs. Fact check me here, but I dont think Jorge pulled that backstory outta nowhere, sure it may not be an exact 1:1 but theres a reason for it.
@@emerson4140 Incorrect. The SA goes back MINIMUM to Madeline Miller's "Circe", which predates Epic by at least a few years, and MM is a Classics scholar, so she wouldn't have invented that wholecloth.
I think I disagree that his core urge is control, precisely because it's clear he'll deny acts that might give him more (perceived) control if it threatens his ties to Penelope. Where you are arguing that Penelope is an anchor for his mind and a method of control, I'd argue getting to Penelope is the core urge, and everything - killing the child, not sleeping with Circe, not trusting his crew - all comes back to going home. His desire for control is intrinsically tied to her, but won't overtake her. That's honestly what I find so interesting about Odysseus! It's interesting to me that talking about or threatening Penelope is the hot button for him, will back him into a corner and make him do things he wouldn't normally. She's his line in the sand, and seeing people try to threaten that or move him past it and how he responds to that is super fascinating.
This is so interesting. Maybe instead of seeing Penelope as an anchor for his control issues, I should see his need for control as something that developed to protect his connection to her? Im not sure, but I find it a fascinating angle. Your reading adds an interesting layer to how trauma and love interact in his character - he's not just using love to justify his actions, but his trauma responses might have developed specifically around protecting that love.
@@JacobPenrodWritesI think this is it! His relationship with Penelope precedes his need for control. Control is a very natural response to trauma and coping strategy, trying to have control or believe you can control outcomes. If you think back to the young Odysseus flashback in “Warrior of the Mind”, you see an Odysseus who hasn’t been through trauma yet. The cunning is there from a young age, the pride and cockiness is there, but he’s *relationally* oriented. He’s playful. His first thought with Athena is to be “bestest of friends”. Later, he falls for Penelope, they have a great romance (we don’t get to see this on screen, but it’s implied by how he talks about Penelope and Telemachus as his whole reason for fighting). He bargains with Zeus to try to keep the baby alive, seeing the similarities with his own son, not wanting to kill a child. *Connecting* with the child (relationally again, emotional). There’s warmth in his voice when he talks to Polites and Eurylochus in “Full Speed Ahead”. That warmth and playful air and cheer is *gone* after Cyclops saga. That’s when everything really changes. Visibly shaken by the loss of Polites - he freezes up! He dissociates! -and from there on out, he’s grappling for any kind of stability. The ground’s been pulled out from under him, he’s desperately grasping for control, safety, a way home, survival. Desperately trying to keep it together. Odysseus is a deeply *emotional and relational* person. His wisdom isn’t cold; I think it’s informed by his understanding of people. Which makes for an interesting balance with Athena, whose wisdom is all rationality and tactics; she doesn’t understand the relational piece or the emotional aspect (and so her wisdom isn’t complete). Odysseus’s emotions overwhelm his rationality; meanwhile, Athena lacks full wisdom because she ignores emotion (and so her ignored emotions also affect her rationality, as I think we see in My Goodbye). (But I also freely admit my own bias: I tend to see everything from a trauma psychology lens as a trauma therapist, so I could absolutely be reading too much into it too from that angle.)
@@JacobPenrodWrites I would generally say this is a more accurate viewpoint, Penelope isn't so much an anchor for his control issues, but rather his desire to maintain and keep that bond, the most important of his bonds, is exactly what causes his need for control and arguably everything he does, good and bad
The makn aspect of Odysseus is his longing to see his family again. Everything else is a means to the end. In the context of this musical that is his main goal and the reason he cares so much about getting home. If he cheated on Penelope it would basically invalidate his motivation because he would have betrayed his love for her
I totally understand that reading and think it is valid. I also think that Odysseus is such a brilliantly written character because it supports a more nuanced reading too. Throughout the story Odysseus has shown both conscious motivations (seeing his family again) and subconscious motivations (find stability and control so he can stop hurting). I do believe he cares about getting home and he loves Penelope, but I also think Penelope so strongly embodies this fulfillment of his subconscious motivation that even if he was unfaithful he would still rationalize and hold onto it. So while I dont think it is OUT of character to not cheat on Penelope, I do think that accepting Circe's advances still is well within the framework of what this character believes. So while keeping Odysseus faithful is certainly a valid choice that works well dramatically, I don't think infidelity would necessarily break his characterization. This is a man who shows remarkable ability to rationalize his choices while holding onto his idealized goal. The musical establishes him as someone whose relationship with home and family is far more complex than simple devotion. His love for Penelope can be genuine while still allowing for human weakness and contradiction - that's what makes him such a brilliantly written character.
@JacobPenrodWrites Maybe it's because I've watched the whole musical but I physically cannot see a reality where Odysseus cheats on Penelope and still makes it back home. I understand what you're saying, but it would feel like a backpedal of his character to me. Also also, Hermes in "Wouldn't you Like" warned that Circe had the power to make him fall in love her. He also warned that the Moly's power would only last until Odysseus had 'beaten his opponent.' After Odysseus declared himself the victor, Circe switched tactics. She knows about Moly so she likely also knew when it wore off. Therefore, 'There are Other Ways' feels very much like Circe putting him under a spell to seduce and more easily kill him. Odysseus remembers his wife once Circe is basically on him and shoves her away, signaling that his love for his wife broke him out the spell. Circe respects this because not only did he love his wife enough to reject her, he managed to do it while under her spell and therefore poses no threat in that way to her nymphs. Granted, none of this has been explicitly confirmed by Jorge, but it is how I have interpreted it. I've seen many others think the same and it makes the most sense to me based on what we have
@ellapowell1316 I completely agree with the spell theory. I also feel a little bit disgusted by it because a spell that influences your thinking kinda automatically takes away your ability to consent properly. If Circe was really putting a spell on Odysseus, she would’ve basically been drugging him
@@emerson4140Indeed. It disgusts me, but I think it makes the most sense for Circe. She's lost at this point and she will do whatever it takes to keep her nymphs safe. Let's just be grateful that Ody is such a wifeguy and everything worked out :D
@@JacobPenrodWritesnot so fun fact, in the Odyssey, they stayed on Circe's Island for a year because she was only willing to turn the crew back to humans if Odysseus slept with her, with him refusing up until the end, because even the earliest versions of Odysseus would never cheat on Penelope unless absolutely necessary, and even then that's less cheating and more getting r@ped. Sadly, Circe isn't the only one to r@pe him in the Odyssey, as you'll see in a future saga.
You were immediately charmed by Circe too. The Freudian slips of "attracting" when you meant "distracting" at 38:30 and then again with "Areolus" instead of "Aeolus" at 42:40. You also keep mentioning her voice and being distracted by it. So flustered! She's definitely the right VA for this character because she's so effective! 10/10
It is technically in character for Odysseus to fall for Circe's trap but that's only if you look at him as a one-sided character whose only traits are that he's self-serving and so desperate for control over his life again. But he is all those things AND he's desperately in love with his wife, even past just the control and comfort that the thought of her gives. Odysseus's love for Penelope and for Telemachus is one of the few things that is truly genuine for him. There Are Other Ways, I think, is meant to show that he *is* willing to give up that control and power if it's for Penelope. That he is self-serving *for* Penelope, to get back to her. So when the time comes, like here, that he can come closer to his goal of getting back to his wife by relinquishing control to someone who he believes knows the way, he will. Odysseus is just a wife-guy at his very core lol
Hermes is also the great grandfather of Odysseus. He is also a well known god that helps heroes without wanting something in return because aside from being the messenger god he's also the god of strangers and travelers; he's also a trickster god thus all he wants is the chaos that ensues if he throws some random cards into the hands of heroes that he helps. PS: Yes Holy Moly is a magical herb that was mentioned in the Odyssey. Maybe it was also referenced in other greek works by that time period. It was called "Moly" but been called Holy Moly because it was magical.
@@emerson4140not sure where youre getting this from. Autolycus is said to be the son of hermes in apollodorus, a greek text, and is stated to be odysseus’s grandfather a few times throughout the odyssey itself
@@reilie9115 If you are referring to Bibliotheca by Apollodorus (sometimes called Pseudo-Apollodorus, so as not to confuse him with Apollodorus of Athens [2nd century BCE Greek scholar]), while he wrote in Greek, he was a scholar and mythographer from either the 1st or 2nd century CE. During the time of the Roman Empire occupation of previously independent Greek city-states. Not that it detracts from anything as Apollodorus was using authentic Greek primary sources to write Bibliotheca, even talking about plays that no longer survive today. This gets into a whole discussion about Greco-Roman sources, and how should we distinguish the difference between authenticity of sources written in Greek but during Roman times and Latin sources that have co-opted a lot of myths and gods in a synchronistic attempt to assuage Greek populations after Roman occupation. They all fundamentally build on the material and are referential to wholly Greek myths (another topic when talking about gods like Dionysus), which is what the Greeks had been doing throughout their 420 year timespan, from Archaic to Hellenistic, prior to Roman occupation.
48:20 It would be out of character. He's stated his motivations over and over again since the first song. "I would trade the world to see my son and wife, I'm just a man." His one goal is to return to his family and everything he does is in service to this goal. We have seen him throw away things he's held important to him in order to fulfill this goal. By deciding not to fight against the prophecy Zeus told him about, he gave up his control, his free will, and his morals in order to save Penelope and Telemachus. His need for control and his ego comes second to his family. Odysseus never wanted to leave Ithaca and actively tried to avoid going to war, but he was forced to do so when Agamemnon and Palamedes came to hold him to his oath to give aid. Even then, he wasn't going to do it until Palamedes threatened his baby Telemachus.
What i like about Odysseus rejecting Circe's advances, is that your right at that point in the story you could see him giving into them and that fact is what makes that moment so tense because as a viewer your expecting him to do the worst and betray that trust and love for Penelope, only for the strongest aspect of His characterisation to come out, The true odysseys void of deceit, tactics and control. Only his love for his family and Penelope which trumps all for him. Its not out of character its his true character. Only other time we have seen this is when he was at his most introspective during just a man "Deep down i am just a man trying to get home, i would burn the world to see my wife and son"
I think with Hermes he feels trustworthy because there are no strings attached to his help. With Aeolus, she led with wanting to play a game, which would have consequences if Odysseus lost. Hermes leads with true facts about Circe and the Holy Moly, offers help, and doesnt stick around to see what comes of his help (in contrast to Aeolus who sees the wind bag through until its opened). I think he is very transparent in a way that Aeolus wasnt. Aeolus also spoke more abstractly with 'Keep your friends close and your enemies closer' in contrast to Hermes 'You can be hurt or you can beat her'.
I see your point and I raise you: besides Odysseus just being a huge romantic, he admitted that Penelope is 'all his power' and that's not just metaphorical. He's used the memory and love of Penelope to get him through a ten year war he didn't even want to go to! Through every hardship, you ask yourself "How could he possibly keep going? How does he come back from this?" And the answer is always that he has to make it back to Penelope. She's as much the love of his life as his mental anchor and the anchor to his will to keep fighting. To cheat on her with Circe would be defeat. He'd have desecrated Penelope's memory for a temporary reprieve of "control". In his mind (in my opinion) he'd rather admit this tiny defeat and BEG for mercy than to give up the only thing that has kept him fighting. Because really, if he allows himself to give in, and replace Penelope with another woman, what's the point? What was the point of losing all of his men to this never ending fight? Both his mental anchor and his pride lay on the line if he cheats on his wife.
Glad you're still enjoying the show, hope it's still the case for the next sagas you've recorded! A lot of people that go really deep in interpretation tend to get upset when it doesn't work out but you're really open minded and that's great
I could see myself interpreting the character is a way that doesn't hold out through the show, but that would not upset me at all! At worst I might say "I dont fully buy it with the characterization that has been set up" but I am fascinated when I am wrong. Not attached to any of my ideas.
So, I had the same reaction to Hermes. I went down this whole rabbit hole about his Caddusis and Medicine but that is only associated with medicine because the army mistook it for Asclepius' staff. But apparently he is Odysseus' great grandfather. But on a personal note the actor is INCREDIBLY personable
48:22 being tempted by circe does not give him nor comfort nor safety nor control. it would be a failure. Everyone was tempted by circe as a woman as a pupeter that will give them directions. Odyseus does not want that, he only want directions from penelope, not because she is his wife, but because she is her. not any woman will filled penelopes place because for him penelope is unique.
I appreciate this perspective, but I think risks oversimplifying Odysseus's character as shown in the musical. While Penelope is indeed unique to him, the musical repeatedly shows that she has become more symbol than person - representing the stability and control he's lost. The key is that Circe actually could offer a form of control - not through puppeteering, but through emotional numbness. Remember, she offers to help him stop feeling the pain and guilt that haunts him. For a character we've seen consistently seeking ways to avoid processing his trauma, this would be incredibly tempting. At least I feel like we should see him grapple with the allure of that temptation some more. Throughout the musical, Odysseus demonstrates that his attachment to Penelope, while genuine and full of love, is complex. He uses her memory to justify increasingly dark actions, showing that his love for her has become entangled with his need for control and stability. So while staying faithful to Penelope works well dramatically, I do not feel that accepting Circe's advances would be out of character. This is a man who consistently rationalizes his choices while holding onto the idea of returning home. His complexity is what makes him such a compelling character.
@@JacobPenrodWrites Here’s why it feels in character: Odysseus does exactly what you’re saying in the original! Jorge changed it because he wanted to keep Ody faithful to his wife for modern audiences. But in The Odyssey, he stays on Circe’s island for at least a whole year in return for getting his men back, and even fathers at least one child with her.
@@TheTuneShifter See, I absolutely hate that but it also feels more in line with how I have understood the character up to this point. It is interesting how Jorge and I seem to see Odysseus a little differently. I wonder if that difference will become more or less pronounced as the show progresses.
@@JacobPenrodWrites Yes, but that complexity includes his loyalty. Him being Loyal to his crew and his family is a crucial part of this Odysseus. Accepting Circes advantage would not get him home to Penelope and Telemachus. His goal is not "Control" its get home to specifically my wife and my Son, and while he does justify some dark actions with needing to go home, that just shows his loyalty and longing for his family even more. "Its worth it if I can return to my wife and Kid" is not necessarily a longing for control, its simply missing the love of his life and his Baby
@@JacobPenrodWrites I agree it wouldn't be out of character for him and in the original myths he does sleep with her. For Epic as Jorge is a bit more of a romantic he made Ody's devotion to penelope be his main driving facet. Everything he does is in a way linked to getting back home to her. which you are fully aware can lead him to do some truly horrific things. I do disagree that for him it is just the memory of her driving him it is the knowledge that he has that if he just gets home she will help ease all those pains. thereby claiming that control you say he is craving. I feel his reason for avoiding the trauma is less him not wanting to deal with it and more him knowing it will just hurt his chances of getting home.
I love your deep dive into his more cynical side- I don’t hear anyone really talk about it the same way you do- BUT, I feel like you seriously downplay or overlook his values in returning home to be with his family. I think rather than him using his family as an excuse (I can’t think of the word) to do these things, they are his main driving power. He will do whatever he has to do to get home to them like you noted in your first reaction that he’ll do whatever it takes. They are his one goal pushing him through every grief and downfall. They are above everyone, EVEN himself. He is selfish and conniving and tricky and all the good stuff, but he is that way for them, not for himself. Just the way I see it, I don’t comment often but I loved the reaction so I thought I’d share!! Love all the way
Haha you just laid out MY central character arc as I went through the future sagas. I slowly start realizing how genuine his love is as it progresses. I do still this it doubles as an escape and a coping mechanism, but it is also so true at the same time. What I love about Odysseus is that his love is both a survival mechanism that he uses to justify increasingly dark actions AND a genuine expression of something he feels at his very core. He embodies both at the same time
You keep mentioning control as a main motivator for Odysseus, but the problem is Odysseus doesn't have control over any of the situations hes in, and Odysseus is very aware of that fact. He had not control over the fate of the baby, he had no control over the death of his friend, he had no control over the deaths of his crew, and he knows he has no control over Circe. Odysseus is "just a man" in a world full of gods who at the snap of a finger can kill hundreds of people. Odysseus is prideful, but he's not an idiot. His goal in every situation he is put in is to minimize damage to himself and his men. Though you will see that his emotions often get in the way of that outcome. Anger, sadness, guilt, and hope fuel him. The whole song from Hermes is very telling about how Odysseus views himself. Wouldn't you like a taste of the power. The power that he doesn't normally have. Odysseus knows that the best thing he can do is talk and scheme, but in the end he doesn't have any real power. Especially not up against gods. He knows that, thats why he takes it. He gets cocky, he does talk himself up, but that is all in service of the goal of getting out of the situation. His main motivator is not control, its survival. The reason he brings up the puppet line to Circe, is because thats just the honest truth. He doesn't have the ability to defeat her, but he can try to change her mind. Circe is also not stupid, if Odysseus was merely just posturing, she would be able to tell. Odysseus even blusters and postures to her in done for and she sees right through it immediately. If he wasn't being genuine this would not work, and the message of this saga would not hit home. That sometimes honesty and vulnerability do work. Also, we have seen Odysseus outright lie before and while he is good at it he ain't that good. Case and point the Cyclops. And while yes, Odysseus wants comfort and for his pain to be over. The musical makes it painstakingly clear, that the only comfort he wants is from his wife. This point will only be driven home further. The "i'm not sure I follow", line is not him being obtuse, he is just hoping she's not insinuating what he thinks she's insinuating, lol. While I understand your take, I think painting him only as a coniving trickster does a disservice to the character. He can be both a character desperate to prove to himself that he is a good person, and also be in grief over the loss of over 500 of his men and not want to lose anymore. Just because he does terrible things, does not mean that he likes doing terrible things or has evil intentions while doing them. "When does a man become a monster" is the theme of the musical. This theme would not work if he was an outright monster in the beginning. I love the reaction by the way, I cant wait to see the next one, I am sorry for the essay😅
You trust Hermes because he isn't hinting at an ulterior motive or quid pro quo. He's not asking for a game, a price, or asking for a favor unlike other deities. He's simply stating the facts and offering a solution. Plus he sought out and approached Odysseus, not the other way around. Its like Athena, he was watching nearby until Odysseus noticed him so he's put in a mentor/watcher role.
Odysseus, even in the original source material(the Odyssey) doesn’t cheat on Penelope(except in Roman myths, screw Ulysses). He is coerced by Circe and told by Hermes ‘do it if you want your men back, or else she’ll kill all of them and then you’. And with Calypso(who’ll you meet later), just assaults him for seven years straight. He is described as crying everyday on the shore of her beach, begging to go home and return to Penelope.
I understand why you pictured Odysseus in the way you did, which is aiming for power. But the reason why it made more sense to you that he would be unfaithful is because of the way you've pictured him which I haven't seen a lot of people or rather I haven't seen anyone at all do. A different picture would be that Odysseus' only goal is to get back home to his wife and son (the phrase repeated in the first song of the first saga "What do you live for, what do you fight for..."), and that he's willing to take all these risks and reckless actions just to make it back home to them. Regardless tho- I am loving the reactions and story analysis!! You've provided insight to a lot of symbolism that went over my head even though I've been listening to the songs endlessly! Thank you so much for these fun daily reactions!!
In the odyssey he does accept her advances BUT not willingly. Here’s some excerpts from the Odyssey of when Hermes was warning him “When Circe strikes you with her long stick, you must draw your sword from your side and rush at her as though you mean to kill her. She will shrink from you in terror and invite you to her bed. You must not refuse to goddess’s favours, if you want her to free your men and look after you. But make her swear a solemn oath by the blessed gods not to try any more of her tricks on you, or when she has you stripped naked she may rob you of your courage and your manhood.” And it goes as he says with Circe as she tells Odysseus “But now put up your sword and come with me to my bed, so that in making love we may learn to trust one another.” She swore an oath and didn’t trouble them anymore and took Odysseus to bed. But as it is obviously stated here, he basically used himself as a bargaining chip to save his men and give them the care and food needed. They stayed there for months and then left. I just went looking for this part in the book since im still reading the illiad but i was surprised when everyone referred to Odysseus as “Favourite of Zeus” which like- really?
What I think is that, because you analyze Odysseus so much, you find other, less wholesome motives behind his actions, and then you paint him as a worse person than even the creator may have intended for him to be. Not saying you’re wrong, but I think the reason you think Odysseus would do these bad things is because in your mind, you have leaned into home being more self centered, which again, could be true, but another person may argue that all of Odysseus’ actions are driven out of pure love for his family. In my personal opinion, if there is one thing that you can never doubt, is Odysseus love for his family because it has not wavered throughout the entire musical. Then again, this is coming from someone who watched the musical through without trying to figure out who Odysseus truly was. Compared to my interpretation of him though, your interpretation of him paints him as a much worse person. To me he is just grappling with his priorities. And you see them slightly change throughout the musical. Anyways, I’ve seen the whole thing already so maybe that’s why my view of him is different. Over all a great analysis, I just hope that you can actually enjoy the songs full by doing this. One thing I would recommend is if you look at the whole song first then you analyze it, instead of analyzing as you go. Because trust me, in the last saga, you’re gonna want to listen to the songs straight through. It may lead to a lot of confusion if you don’t. Just note that this is all just my opinion and I wanted to place my comment here but I love your reactions and really hope you continue all the way to the end
The woman who voices Circe is played by Jorge's real-life girlfriend, Talya. The fact that Jay released this saga on valentines Day is just so adorable to me. Plus, one of Ody's crew did die on Circe's island. His name was Elpenor. He got drunk and fell off the roof of Circe's palace and broke his neck.
31:10 Moly was indeed mentioned in the Odyssey, but the phrase Holy Moly actually has no direct connection to it! It's a minced oath for "Holy Mary", or possibly "Holy Moses".
It is cannonical to the Odyssey(which epic is based on) that Hermes is Ody's great grandfather through his mother. I think this is why Ody accepts his help more readily then others and why Hermes was willing to give such help. You might be picking up on the fact that Ody trusts him. Ody actually has a really good sense of trust and when to give it. He just also has an overfilled sense of his abilities that isnt always correct.
20:20 thank you! Yes! Its a relatively agree idea on the epic fandom that circe is the balance between open arms and Ruthlessless. She is by all acounts willing to do whatever it takes to protect her nymphs. But she is not merciless, if she is shows someone can be trust, she'll give that trust. Maybe no fully, she probably will have a back up if she is wrong. But she wil try. Being Ruthless but merciful. I love circe so much 💓
45:42 if you listen closely after ody reject's circe's advances and walks away the tune that starts playing is penelope's theme letting you know she is the reason why he can't continue
Without Mythological Insight: Honestly, the trust towards Hermes could easily just be because of the sharp mood shift from puppeteer and the upbeat and groovy-like music? As well as his bubbly child-like laughter. Gives him very much free soul vibes. With Mythological knowledge: Hermes is actually rather well known to do things just for fun rather than wanting anything in return! As well, Odysseus is technically his like… great grandson depending on which version of the mythos you look into. And you were correct that moly is mentioned in the Odyssey as it is an ancient plant with magical ties in multiple practices if I remember right?
I didn't see anyone else answer you but yes, he canonically summons a cyclops according to Jorge. Love your analysis~ Its so unique! You've got a market cornered, don't worry about over thinking or anything you just give us your raw opinions! I *love* your new insight into Ody, and I think you're really right! People are just talking with fore-knowledge and using their own conclusions. Btw! The next Saga is my personal Favorite. So i really hope you enjoy it!!!!
In regards to it making sense for the character to accept circes advances. In the original Odyssey he does. However in pretty much all versions of it, its under coercion be ut a spell or an ultimatum. So your pretty spot on with that. jorge of course takes his own liberties with his telling if it and his extreme dedication to the idea of his loyalty and dream of penelope is a big factor in his version. Thiugh this early in the story it really leaves you in the edge of his seat because you really feel like hes gonna give in to his lust until that last moment.
Obviously an adaptation should stand on its own and set itself apart from the source material, but I think it bears mentioning: in Homer's Odyssey, the whole Circe debacle was very much about Odysseus losing control completely. Hermes outright tells him the moly is only temporary, that to save his men he will have to become Circe's lover to convince her. He stays with her for a year before being allowed to leave, and it's quite obvious in the writing he's coerced the whole way, as he just leaves with his men without looking back when given the chance. People often misunderstand this part of the story, thinking he's cheating on Penelope while he expects her to remain loyal, but coercion is not consent. Circe is a goddess, and had power over him from the moment she turned his men into pigs. I understand why it was changed in Epic, as actually exploring this aspect of the story would make Circe quite unsympathetic, and the musical works hard to hunanize each of Odysseus's enemies and obstacles, so it wouldn't work, and would have even made Odysseus himself far less likable.
your description of the whole thing is a bit... hm. first of all hermes' instructions include this: "When Circe touches you with her elongated wand, then draw that sharp sword on your thigh and charge, as if you were intent on killing her. She’ll be afraid. And then she’ll order you to sleep with her. At that point don’t refuse to share the goddess’s bed, if you wish to free your crew and entertain yourself. But tell her she must swear a solemn oath, on all the blessed gods, not to make plans to harm you with some other injury, so when you are in bed completely naked, she won’t change you to an unmanned weakling." so while there is definitely a consent issue here and he didn't go into it happily, he wasn't *entirely* powerless. the description of him being trapped with circe is just inaccurate. this wasn't the same as the years with calypso, he stayed because he wanted to. in fact it's odysseus' men who have to beg him to leave: "We stayed there, day by day, for one whole year, feasting on sweet wine and huge stores of meat. But as the months and seasons came and went, the long spring days returned. A year had passed. My trusty comrades summoned me and said: ‘You god-driven man, now the time has come to think again about your native land, if you’re someone who’s destined to be saved and reach your lofty home and soil once more.’ My proud heart was persuaded by their words." and circe's response? "Resourceful Odysseus, son of Laertes and Zeus’s child, if it’s against your will, you should not now remain here in my house." the idea that he never looked back is also straight up false, they go back to her island after leaving the underworld: "Our ship sailed on, away from Ocean’s stream, across the great wide sea, and reached Aeaea, the island home and dancing grounds of Dawn. We sailed in, hauled our ship up on the beach, then walked along the shore beside the sea. [...] Circe finished speaking. And our proud hearts agreed with what she’d said. So all that day until the sun went down we sat there eating rich supplies of meat and drinking down sweet wine. The sun then set, and darkness came. So we lay down and slept beside our ship’s stern cables. But Circe took me by the hand and led me away, some distance from the crew. She made me sit, while she stretched out beside me on the ground. I told her every detail of our trip, describing all of it from start to finish" and then she tells him literally everything he needs to know about the sirens, scylla, charybdis and the cows. also cheating in ancient greece wasn't at all seen the way cheating is in our times. men sleeping with goddesses, war prizes, prostitutes or fellow soldiers wouldn't be seen as cheating, especially if it's far away from their homes. tldr: yes, the sexual encounter between them could at best be labelled dubious consent and the short description we get of odysseus' feelings about it beforehand point to him being more unwilling to do it than anything else, but he wasn't trapped by circe and she was in fact one of the most helpful figures he encounters throughout the story. it's a weird dynamic and imo why it was for the best that jorge changed it.
The Circe saga is one of my favorites! Talia’s voice is incredible and Hermes is so much fun! And I adore Gigi’s Circe design. The talent that exists in this fandom is insane. People make such high quality animatics that really add to the experience. I’m glad you’ve been loving this whole thing so much.
I feel like even without knowing any mythology we trust Hermes because the song is groovy and makes you go along with the rhythm as well as the fact that Hermes cracks jokes and just tells you what it is- you don’t see as many ulterior motives or greater goal with him
I've watched Gigi's animatic of There Are Other Ways like a hundred times, and only this time did I actually catch that Circe's last lines are not a repetition. She said "Maybe one day the world will need a puppeteer no more, *or* maybe one day the world will need a puppeteer *more."* She's saying that she doesn't know whether mercy or ruthlessness is what the world needs, but that between her and Odysseus they will adapt to whichever is required. Such good writing!
I think the character we see him as in "the Horse and the Infant" is different from the person he was when he first left for war. There's some wear on him, and that wear continues to increase throughout the musical. His philosophy is challenged, his perspective changes, and he struggles with conflicting but true aspects of himself. I think that the more he goes through, the more he loses, the less altruistic and selfless he can bring himself to be out of fear. I don't think that means he was never a more selfless and altruistic person than not in the past and I think he struggles to accept that the events throughout the musical and the war preceding it have changed him, are changing him, and are likely to change him more. I also think that he's fearful that he'll change so much or because of such a significantly hurtful thing that he will be unable to ever be the person he wants for himself to be, the person he was closer to being before he left. A lot of the things he says in places have dual uses, but I think there's a lot of honesty in what he tells people, or at least his crew/Eurylochus. I do think he knew, deep down, that he would trade the world to see his son and wife again like he said. But even when he was saying that in "the Horse and the Infant", he deeply did not want to have to go there, and just the idea of doing things akin to trading the world to do so deeply hurt him inside. Odysseus is pained by everything that's been happening. He longs to be a father to his son and have the opportunity to spend time with and love them. She is all his power; his drive to get home, the source of his willingness to endure all of the pain he goes through throughout the musical, and the strength to change from who he is in order to get back, though it scares and hurts him inside to do so. In this scene with Circe, he's strained, and tired. He's hurting, and definitely missing that gentle, intimate connection with someone, whether physical, emotional, or romantic. He won't allow himself to cheat on her, and at the point that he begs Circe to let them leave, he's wanting desperately to not have to fight or hurt more people to get out of this situation and past this ordeal. He's asking for kindness and help, like he asks Poseidon to forgive. Respect and kindness given in the hopes of getting respect and kindness in return. And he does so by first ensuring to her that he'll leave her safety and the safety of the nymphs she cares for as a boundary uncrossed. I'm not sure what he'd do if she chose to not help him, or to further try to harm him, but I don't think he'd have settled on giving up on getting home by that point, no matter what he had to do. I see this scene with her, after he rejects her advances, as one of the significant points where he's struggling to follow Polites' beliefs about Open Arms, and to keep the hope that that can work in this world alive, while also being able to still get home. As Polites said, "You can show a person that you trust them when you stop and lower your guard....Whatever we face, we'll be fine if we're leading from the heart. No matter the place, we can light up the world. Here's how to start: greet the world with open arms, greet the world with open arms."
12:31 i love how even in the very start of circe singing she says "i got you, dont worry circes got you" i thought the same thing. jorge is so good at writing lyrics with double meanings and wordplay
My personal reading of this saga is that it shows how willing ody is to let go of his control and power for Penelope and his son. i think thats the whole purpose of the last song, and why he say hes a puppet after trying so hard to maintain control
you talked about how the line "I can only hope you'd do the same" is manipulative, and I think it is but for a different reason. I don't think he is trying to make it reciprocal as much as he was just trying to guilt Eurylocus for wanting to leave there
I think you may have the most cynical perception of Odysseus that I’ve seen in a reactor, haha. Other reactors are very quick to believe that he is a good man put in very bad situations, and that he’s cunning and deceptive when necessary, but usually a pretty forthright leader. You seem to think he’s lying if his mouth is moving, haha. And you may be more correct than other reactors. 🤷♀️ From my perspective, the part of him calling himself a puppet to Circe was him finally letting his walls down. Instead of his usual arrogance which did not succeed in defeating Circe, he’s just real with her and shows her his humanity and desperation instead trying to show himself as a god or unquestionable leader. (Maybe something could be said about how he trauma dumps on the first woman he’s seen in years, but that’s another discussion) This actually works with Circe and tells us about her character and serves as a lesson for Odysseus.
It’s so interesting how you read Odysseus, because that’s very much how the original character is portrayed in the Odyssey. And in the original version he does sleep with her (and yes Hermes does tell him to do it, but still) You’re so great at character development!
Odysseus *does* fall to Circe's advances in the original odyssey, but it should be noted how both of his affairs occur in the story, and how Penelope contextualizes them when she finds out (no i don't accept the Telegony as an extension of the Odyssey). Circe is either a God or a very powerful Nymph. if she wants to force it, Odysseus - or any other man - has as much power to resist as any woman has to resist Zeus' advances. Odysseus' affair is VERY dubiously consensual on his part. She is offering the only method by which he can return home, as well as holding his men and supplies hostage as they are stuck on her island for two years. Meanwhile his affair with Calypso (mild, tangential spoilers for a coming saga, but the character is changed so much from her original that talking about them as two completely seperate people is more fitting) is plainly stated to be her forcing herself upon him. for eight years, as she holds him prisoner on her island. lines referencing him spending every night sitting upon the beach, weeping for his wife. Etc, Etc.
i've really liked your analysis of the musical so far, but the whooosh of ody's love for penelope and his goal sincerely being just getting home to see his wife and son going over your head because you're thinking too many layers deep is very funny
I think a big part of why Hermes seems more trustworthy is because when he laughs, it seems like Odysseus (and the audience) just aren't in on the joke. But with Aeolus, it's like Odysseus is the joke. Edit: Odysseus' reaction to them is also extremely different. Since he's the main character, a lot of our expectations are influenced by that.
I think what makes Hermes instantly trust worthy is that Odysseus immediately recognized him and was excited and happy to see him and seemed to know him already. So I think we trust Hermes because Odysseus does. Which makes sense because I've learned from this fandom that Hermes is Odysseus's maternal gradfather
Since you're zooming through these, I'd like to recommend that you watch the entire livestream for the Ithaca saga so you can get a glimpse of the cast's personality (aka a bunch of tipsy theatre kinds hanging out) and get the maximum amount of nostalgia when it comes to an end Jorge messed up with the years. His mistakes haunts him still
Eh if he wants but it's not the most fun to set up a 3 hour recording and Do all that, maybe if he released a video every week, but he's doing it every day so he wouldn't get much from the recap
I'm so happy you are speed running this because I found your epic reactions today and now I want you to get to every saga yesterday! Very thoughtful analysis! I've listened this musical through multiple times and listened other analysis and you still managed to get something new out of it I'm amazed
hermes is like one of the gods that just does stuff no strings attached, he just wants to see what happens most of the time. Still that is pretty odd for a trickster god who's also the god of thieves (and travellers/other things i forgot) Tldr: he's just like that
I think what makes Hermes likeable is that he's honest about the situation. He presents things as they are. "Hey, you're probably gonna die here, you need help, here's a thing that can help you face it." He's not applying any sort of condition, he's not asking anything of Odysseus in return.
I think in this case he WAS being selfish not sleeping with Circe. So it’s not so out of character for him. For all he knew the only way to save his men was to be with Circe. He was willing to put his men at risk for the love of his wife. Which goes back to the ‘trade the world to see my son and wife’. So still self serving, because from the beginning he made his motivations known: PENELOPE…. and Telemachus. He was in luck that Circe helped him because he refused to sleep with her. He could have permanently lost the men he was so gung-ho to save by saying no. I’m loving your reactions by the way!
Oooh yes. Good point! “Want to save your men from the fire? / Show me that you’re willing to burn” makes it sound like the only way his men will be released is if he sleeps with her, so refusing because of his love for Penelope is the “more selfish” thing to do with the information he has :D
Fun fact: one of the men (named Elpenor) was not turned into a pig he actually died not by Circe herself but by getting so drunk he fell down and broke his neck no one noticed so they didn’t give him a proper burial Hermes is one of those characters who will do something for you and expect nothing in return except entertainment he’s also Odysseus great grandfather and Circe’s EX Hermes is not only the god of messages but also the god of trickery which is why Odysseus is related to him Did you notice in the flashback there were *four* nymphs but in the present there are now *three* nymphs *also* Odysseus men were not the reason for that it was another group that came before them I think in the stories for this some of it is debatable whether it was consensual on Odysseus end So here’s something funny: the creator accidentally made a mathematical error it’s actually still been 10 years not 12 years but by the time the creator had this pointed out and he realized it’s true it was already too late Fun fact: when Odysseus voice is high like we see him begging to Circe it’s Odysseus showing vulnerability when there are some strains where he’s trying not to let his vulnerability get to him and sometimes failing
While I agree with a lot of your points, I find your interpretation of Ody is quite uncharitable towards the fact that while he's a cunning man, he's also got actual sincerity inside him- I don't believe he wants to save his men for any reason other than that he values them. If you read his actions as less altruistic as they are in that moment, I think that it makes the impact of Scylla much less. He must have goodness and sincerity inside him to have something to lose- otherwise this isn't a negative character arc, it's just a static arc with a bunch of fluff on top, which makes it a lot less interesting.
i feel like eurylochus has always been on a more cautious side. back in the troy saga he felt confident suggesting a raid because back then they had the numbers, and pillaging a small island at once with the element of surprise really was a safer option than sending scouts/negotiators, risking their lives and giving the enemy time to prepare
Sad I couldn't watch yesterday but back to it today!! I need a montage of all the times you say something at the same time or immediately after the characters! Something I really like about Puppeteer is the lyric "Circe's got you now" - there's three whole meanings! Circe's "got them" as in going to take care of them, but the hidden meaning is that she's "got them" at her mercy. The third meaning, which the animatic highlights by a brief interaction she has with one of her nymphs, is reassuring her own "daughters" that the situation is under control. The latter isn't necessarily canon, but it's completely in line with her later dialogue about her own motives, so I really love that detail in Gigi's animatic. I do really like your analysis of every character paralleling Odysseus, but I think it's also worth emphasizing that our boy contains multitudes. The part of him that is brutal and manipulative can exist alongside the part that yearns for earnest connection, safety, and comfort. He is, in the first line of Homer's Odyssey, called a "man of many twists and turns". He is fundamentally multifaceted, and all of those parts of him are equally him. I think this helps make sense of some of his actions and reconcile them: he is the man who poisoned the Cyclops because he wouldn't risk it, but he is also the man endlessly faithful to his wife. I do agree that he both loves Penelope sincerely *and* holds onto her as an ideal and representation of hope that keeps him going, but I don't actually think it can be said that any human who loves another person DOESN'T do that to some degree. I believe he is sincere when he begs Circe for mercy. My reasoning is primarily focused on the larger narrative structure: when he tried to give the Cyclops a chance to let them go, he had already poisoned him. When he apologized to Poseidon, it was only to get out of that situation, and that was all he wanted. Of course he failed back then. But with Circe, he gives up his advantage and places himself at her mercy - and this is the only time so far that the narrative allows him to succeed when he begs for help, because he is fully sincere. His heart is on his sleeve, and he has no other recourse if she decides to kill him. It's a pure leap of faith in her humanity. "There are many ways of persuasion" - one of those ways is simply laying his heart bare to her. He is a man of many twists and turns! Further evidence: frequently when Ody is expressing himself sweetly and sincerely, Jorge uses that high, sweet falsetto. "Let us puppets leave", and back in The Horse and the Infant/Just a Man when he's singing to the baby, and I believe when he sings about Penelope a couple times. Notably, when confronting the Cyclops and giving his false name "nobody", he also uses falsetto, but it ends on a lower note, betraying the falseness with which he's presenting himself. Just thought that was a cool detail in the music that signals to the audience how they're supposed to read his demeanor! Excited to get to watch TWO videos today, so let me go get to the next one. Can't wait for Thunder saga >:)
I love your analysis,I do think this is the one point you got wrong though, odyssey is desperate for Penelope and Telemachus, he’s desperate for the life he once held so close, so yes comfort control, BUT I do not think it’s in Odysseus’s character at all (in epic) for him to accept Circe’s advances. In the actual odyssey this can be questioned more, but I don’t think it’s really up for debate in epic itself. This is all just my personal opinion though, I so love watching you go through all these different thoughts though
Thank you for the thoughtful response! You make a fair point about Odysseus's desperation for his former life with Penelope and Telemachus. I agree completely that keeping him faithful ALSO works well within Epic's narrative framework. Where I might differ slightly is in saying it's not up for debate-I think what makes Epic such a rich adaptation is how it portrays Odysseus's psychology with multiple layers. His desperation to return home is genuine, but it's also become intertwined with his need for control and his pattern of self-deception That said, you're absolutely right that the Epic version of Odysseus has been intentionally made distinct from Homer's original, and what works in one telling might not work in another. The musical chose to keep him faithful, and that choice serves its themes and character development beautifully. I personally think it might have worked a LITTLE stronger had he chosen to accept Circe's advances, but when it comes down to it that is just trying to tell a different story than it seems Jorge is interested in telling. Both are valid and I could see Odysseus doing either while still being in character. I appreciate you!
dude while i agree that Penelope is an idealized version and a symbol i feel like you are forgetting that their love story is like symbolic for a love that survives through basically everything, especially from Penelope's side it's absolute loyalty to her husband and in Epic that's entirely mirrored by Odysseus. if there's something this Ody doesn't play about is Penelope.
If we go by your interpretation of the core of what Odysseus truly seeks for being control, then it still makes sense he would resist Circe. If he slept with her, he wouldn't be in control. She's the one making the advances, she's the one who holds control in that situation. She's the puppeteer. If anything, he would be giving up control if he slept with her. He would be "just a man", not the deified, untouchable version of himself.
Fun fact about hermes, odysseus's granfather is a child of him! So one of the reason hermes may be helping ody other than just chaos and fun- is a bit of nepotism. Hermes is also the god of travellers, which ody absolutely falls under
@emerson4140 the gods are just chaotic their personalities fluid, im sure there are times when even Zeuse is a nice guy, it just seemed fun to help Ody. Plus if he's the god of travelers, and she traps and kills travelers, that's kinda his domain to do something about
46:59 it's actually 10 and Jorge messed up. He admitted to that. But my headcanon is that the entire saga - from Ruthlessness to There Are Other Ways is in the span of less than a day and poor Odysseus starts feeling it. He's exhausted.
Having these everyday is a treat, and nearly a full hour? YES Also for Hermes, despite being known as a trickster god, I think it's just his personality. Its almost addicting and draws you in similar to how you are with Circe's voice..
As for Ody not cheating, this is one of the moments that helps anchors Ody's love and fidelity as a core trait of his. He keeps referencing them, and he keeps choosing them. He kills the baby bc Zeus says they'd die if he didn't and now even with Circe tempting him, he can't betray Penelope in that way. Anyway, unrelated I can't wait for your Underworld reaction :)
So about the 12 year thing - it's a running joke in the fandom that Polities was in charge of the calendar cuz he didn't wanna miss anybody's birthday anD I AM SOBBING 😭
I find the dynamics of consent in the last song fascinating. Because, neither Circe nor Odysseus are consenting technically speaking. Despite Circe being the one advancing, she's only doing so as a self defence tactic after losing the head on fight. I believe she does not desire to sexualise herself in that moment, but the circumstances call for her to use it as a tactic against Odysseus, to try and get him off his guard. And that's fascinating to me.
Yay, another great reaction! What I really like, just a small moment in gigi's Puppeteer animation, when Circe is saying "don't worry, I got you" the second time, she turnes to one of her nymphs, and the meaning of that phrase changes to "don't worry I don't let them hurt you, I got you". Which I find fascinating, how a small detail like this can change stuff. Also, the cyclops is canon, Jorge said it in a video. Reason being this is a beast, Ody would be most familiar with. And the 12 years IS an error on Jorge's part, he realized it too late (also has a short video about it) and it's now a running joke within the fandom, that Odysseus either can't count or Polites had the calendar, and since he is dead (rip :( ) they no longer can tell how many years passed 😅. Can't wait for the Underworld saga tomorrow, that one is soooo gooooood. Btw I really enjoyed your "messy" reaction, it was so genuine and fun 😊
In my opinion, i think you have Ody's motivations backwards. Instead of viewing his selfishness as part of the reason he love Penelope, becuase she represents comfort and a controled environment. I think he is selfish becuase of his love for Penelope, his self serving comes from the want to return to Penelope. He does the things he does becuase he believes it will help him get home in some way. Obviously that doesnt always apply, like with the cyclops, but i think the moments in which he is selfish and self serving come from a place of caring for others. He let the cyclops live, not because he wanted him to live with defeat, but because ody loved polites and believed he was honoring him by granting mercy. In that way i dont think it fits his character to sleep with circe. Because he is motivated by love, not selfishness. His selfishness comes from the believe that he is acting out of love for the people he cares about.
also with your comments about how it'd be in character for ody to go through with circe's proposition- in canon he actually does! epic the musical takes a fair bit of liberty, this being one of the deviations- likely to make odysseus a more likable protagonist and to strengthen the idea of him prioritizing HIS goal over his men. Although he goes to save the men, when push comes to shove he can't sacrifice part of his goal, penelope, to save them. He quite literally showed her he is NOT willing to burn- rather he was willing to burn his men for his goal.
That is fascinating!! I am not sure which version of events I prefer from a storytelling perspective, gonna need to think on that, but in terms of maintaining pure likability I think Jorge definitely made the safer call
@@JacobPenrodWrites I'm also personally torn. On one hand the original shows Odysseus's dedication to his cause and that sense of control he needs- but epic's version might actually be more inherently selfish as he's prioritizing Penelope over his men
I’d like to add that canonically Odysseus was SA’d by Circe, he did not cheat. Yes he slept with her and stayed on her island for a year in the odyssey, but she was a powerful witch and goddess who was the daughter of Helios himself. If Odysseus refused her, he could’ve gotten himself and his crew killed. Sex with coercion and imbalanced power dynamics is never consensual
Yes he 100% summoned a cyclops. The roar is the same exact as Polyphemus. Funny you say it wouldn't be out of character for him to give in to Circe, because he actually did in the original Odyssey. Jorge decided to make him the ULTIMATE simp for his wife though, and this decision will actually come back later lol (not in a huge way but it's just great continuity) Also to add to the 10 vs 12 years mistake that many people have already mentioned, the community headcanon now is not only that Polites was the only one that kept track, but that the reason he was the one that kept track was to remember everyone's birthdays lol
Hermes never promises Odysseus anything, only that he has something that COULD help. He also doesn't seem to be sowing distrust. Aeolous repeatedly mentions the untrustworthiness of his crew and killing them, whereas Hermes simply says "Here is what you are up against. I can give you the tool you need, but the rest is up to you." He doesn't even try to make Odysseus insecure (and therefore rely on him more), he simply says the reality of things and offers an upgrade.
whats interesting is in the original source myth he absolutely gave into her advances it was changed for epic, because odysseus being absolutely loyal to his family is both a positive and negative character trait for him here. because he will both love them always and do things that are absolutely abominable if its all for them
Well a caveat to that is that Hermes told him to give in to her advances in order to save his men. There's some questionable consent there at the very least.
Really enjoy listening to your analyses, InkWrites! One thing you may want to do for at least Act 2 is check out the official release party animatics (currently up on Jorge's channel), especially as there are a few songs closer to the end where visuals really, really matter and where the official animatics differ significantly plot-wise from fan-made ones.
30:25 I think the reason why we wind up trusting Hermes so quickly is because when he reveals himself to Odysseus/us he approaches him/us in a casual/friendly manner. Hermes shows us that despite being mischievous, he genuinely wants to lend Odysseus a hand. We learn that he's very intelligent & observant by the way he offers his help to Odysseus. Letting him know that Odysseus way of speaking to get people on his side is brilliant but it can only take him so far/using just his words won't be enough to take on a foe like Circe who also seems to use her words to puppeteer her victims in the direction she wants. Hermes also lets Odysseus know all the conditions of taking "Holy Moly". That the power boost Hermes is giving Odysseus is only temporary, that he needs to use his imagination/be creative for the power to work and that even if he does accept his help, there's no guarantee that he won't die.
38:42 Yes it is! And is not shown in the animatic but, canonicaly, Odysseus made the cyclops do the same thing as Polyphemus. Loss at first, then summoned a club for a surprise act that made him win (Although Polyphemus did end up loosing, but because of the lotus on the wine, because once he got his club he started murdering everyone)
I was so interested how you read everything in "there are other ways". ESPECIALLY the point when he rejects Circe. Because I agree, something feels slightly off. And the way I read it, so far I've not seen anyone come to the same conclusion. While I truly believe that everything Ody said was genuine (after all, that is his one redeeming quality: this man loves his wife to a fault!), I always felt that Jorges performance is somewhat performative. Like, Ody is laying it on thick here! I could totally see him doing the back of the hand against the forhead victorian lady fake faint when he sings "Oh, twelve long years" - it's just soooo dramatic! And I personally feel that's on purpose. I might be alone in my reading, but that's how I read that part 🤷🏽♀️
No hate, but im genuinely curious why you seem to desperately want to paint Odysseus having selfish motives for every action. "He wants to be more than Just a man" to "He says he's just a man to justify his actions" while everything we see in the musical up to this point shows that he really sees himself as JUST A MAN. He doesn't think he's a god, he doesn't want to control everyone, he wants to go home. This comment was originally way longer with more Examples, but got out of hand, but I just fail to see ANY implication of this side you want to see in him. You even say him telling his childhood friend he'd save him if he got caught was manipulation, while we know he just lost his other childhood friend which broke him. We know he cares deeply for his crew and especially Eurylochus. So why are you turning him saying "I would save you, wouldn't you save your friends as well?" Into a manipulative move. I could see that argument if he manipulated Eurylochus to fight alongside him against Circe or something but he just asked them to wait so he could free the Men. One more extremely prominent thing in your analysis is your repeated use of "Odysseus wants to be in control", which also cant see. He takes on ALL of the responsiblities of being a captain without expecting anything but trust from his people. Never is it implied he longs for control and its also very out of character for him to maliciously try to manipulate people to keep said control. While he is a nuanced Character that works with his wits you are definitely painting him in more of a narcissistic way when he shows time and time again he cares for his entire crew and even his enemies, not wanting any to die needlessly He seems to just be a Man wanting to get home without losing his crew because they are just men as well, hence him being sad and defeated when he eventually loses some. Idk your analysis just seems really biased by this viewpoint you built up in the last reaction.
In some ways I understand where he is coming from, like as the Captain Odysseus inherently has to be in control. And in songs like Luck runs out he really is very controlling. But I also agree that he is kind of talking himself into that interpretation too much. I especially dislike how he discredits Odysseus´ love for his family and making that into just yet another "desire for power/control"
I appreciate your critique and agree that I may have over-interpreted some specific moments. This is all off-the-cuff as I am seeing the story for the first time, so my thoughts aren't super evolved when you hear them. However, I respectfully disagree in some ways. The musical consistently shows Odysseus's psychological complexity. Yes, he genuinely cares for his crew and sees himself as "just a man," but we also see him: - Repeatedly using "getting home" to justify increasingly dark actions - Developing problematic coping mechanisms around control as he deals with trauma - Showing patterns of self-deception and rationalization - Struggling with the gap between his stated motivations and his actions His need for control isn't about malicious manipulation - it's about a traumatized person trying to maintain order in a situation that keeps taking choices away from him. We see this particularly in: - His response to losing Polites - His interaction with Athena - How he handles the Circe situation What makes Odysseus such a compelling character to me is that these aspects don't negate his genuine care for others - they exist alongside it. He can authentically love his family and crew while still being driven by complex, sometimes problematic motivations. That's not painting him as narcissistic; it's recognizing his full humanity. I'm not trying to villainize Odysseus (though I see how it sounds like that with my off the cuff reactions) - I'm just trying to engage with the full picture of how he has been presented.
@@JacobPenrodWrites Thanks for the respectful and elaborate Answer. I hope my message didn't come off as disrespectful, seeing how it had a negative tone, because it was not meant in a demeaning or hateful way. I fully agree that he struggles with his motivations and actions and especially with Trying to justify his dark actions with needing to go home. I just personally cant really read the need for control to the same degree you do, as I consider the Athena situation for example to genuinely be mostly Athenas miscommunicating in an arrogant and dismissive tone and Ody, being an emotional wreck at the time, not responding well to her tone. So him meeting Aeolus for example, which if I remember correctly, you interpreted as him trying to replace Athena, I see more disconnected from Athena and him becoming desperate and clutching every chance he has at getting home faster, even if that regards scaling a floating Island despite the risks. As well with Polites death, i can see he's not doing well and is very distraught but I just don't read his actions following the death as trying to maintain control, but in that regard its agree to disagree, that's the good part about interpretations and Analyses, two people can have entirely different Interpretations. My main issue was that it sounded like you were trying to villainize Ody, but now knowing that's just a communication error/ due to the format I can look at it again in a different light. And as you said, while you maybe overanalyzed some Parts I very well could have also under analyzed some parts. So again, thanks for the Answer, Im very excited to see your reactions to the later sagas( despite my criticism of this one issue) I really enjoy your epic reactions because they go into so much detail.
I love how all these trials ody faces are turned into aspects of him and his inner battles, whose reasoning for their actions is as sound as his. A wonderful push pull between man and monster
Have you seen the Hamilton musical? I love the way you deep dive into the characters motivations and I haven't seen anyone do that in that extent for Hamilton. There are animatics on RUclips and a live recording on Disey +. Thank you so much for spoiling us with your daily uploads! It has become something that I look forward to every day. 😊
Underworld saga is out now! ruclips.net/video/6xmmMc8S8GQ/видео.html
AaaaAaaa it's Christmas! 🎉
Aeolus was too good to be true?
"You just broke into my house, here's a bag that will solve all your problems, aren't I so kind and funny and helpful?"
Vs
"Wow, you're doomed. Here's something to give you a bit more of a chance. Still might die though. Oh well. I'll bring popcorn."
It's a lot in the tone as well as the lyrics. Hermes lets you in on the joke, while Aeolus keeps her inner monologue to herself.
Yeah, Odysseus is using Aeolus' island as an anchor to save his fleet from the storm. Kinda rude if you ask me
@@laytonjr6601oh well she should have probably put it higher in the air then😂
@@colt1903 it's not even meant to be in the air😭 Jorge misunderstood the floating Island; it was meant to be an Island that just floats in the water (same concept as vanishing islands)
@@colt1903 how else can she get patsy's to provide entertainment?
@@seanchesteralexisexamen5964 The point still stands. 🤣
you underestimate Odysseus's most flanderized trait: wife guy
THE wife guy.
I’m so fucking dead
The embodiment of the world “LOYAL” and “FIDELITY”
The kind of guy to get drunk with Telemachus and push Penelope while she's tucking him into bed because he's a married man 😂
Zeus could never
Btw, Hermès is kinda like an advocate for chaos. He could genuinely help someone "just cause." or "This might be fun." Also, Hermes is kind of Odysseus' great grandfather I think
Yep. He was odysseus' mother's paternal grandpa
Ehh yeah its more like a 'kind of' thing. In the Roman Version, and in another translation, he is the grandfather of Odysseus. But in other translations, such as the original translation of the actual story of The Odyssey, Hermes simply favored Odysseus' grandfather. Its a bit hard to tell if Hermes is related to Odysseus or not at this point, but I personally think its just kind of up to what people interpret as correctly in their eyes since I honestly dont know what the 'right' version is./lh
I don't know where I heard this, but didn't he like to help heroes from time to time, like that was one of his many "things".
It would be cool if he was his great grandfather, but I’m OK with him just being a really gifted human that some God’s really like and some gods hate like every other Greek hero
it's also worth mentioning that he's a patron god of travellers among other things, so Odysseus is kinda the perfect traveller for him to be a patron of considering how long he takes to get home
You are correct, its been 10 years not 12. Jorge made a mistake and didn't notice until later. Now its like a head canon that Polities kept track of the calendar and such.
A very Polites thing to do
@OfficialInternetPerson who else would keep track of the people's birthdays?
I mean I see a lot of people say how there’s a 2 year time jump between the cyclops and ocean saga.
@@backpack_hermit25wouldn't make much sense, Troy and Ithica aren't very far away from each other.
@ that’s the only thing, tho with the storms you could argue being nonstop it could delay them
i think the reason you trust Hermes is because he isn't asked for help or offers a condition for helping.
Athena tells us why she wants to help Odysseus and gives the consequences of her more strict teachings
Aeolis was asked to offer help and still turned it into a game.
I think you are onto something!
@@JacobPenrodWrites It may also be because Ody gets all the terms of the agreement with hermes in exchange of a dubiously helpful buff, while Aeolus offered a Deus Ex Machina, Solves all his problemes, with a simple win condition. She gives you dreams in the same way a shitty movie producer would when they say they'll make you a star. They are both not taking the situation seriously, But Aeolus is doing it at the expense of Ody, expecting perfection, Hermes let luck sort this conflict by simply evening the ground between them. "Yopu very well may die", he doesn't care if ody dies from this, yet he still has the generosity give him a chance, why Aeolus sabotages the game in her amusement's favor.
For the Cyclops summon, yes! it is Cannon! Ody summoned the scariest beast he knows, and that's a cyclops, not even a sea monster, but the thing that killed the first of his men in 10 years of war
@@JacobPenrodWritesanother thing is how trusting ody is with Hermes! By the time the circe saga starts, viewers understand that Odysseus knows when he's in danger or not (the danger motif) and when he how few questions he asks hermes the only person he didn't ask as many questions to is polites in open arms.
@@JacobPenrodWrites I'd like to add that in mythology, Hermes is also Ody's great grandfather. So it could be the reason why he is so trusting.
also the fact that ody is hermes' great grandson
Evidently, Jorge had the same reaction as you when he heard Circe's voice
Jay and Tayla are so cute together I love them
So Jorge confirmed in one of his shorts that, yes, Ody canonically summons a Cyclops against Circe. He says it's because the Cyclops is the monster Odysseus is most familiar with, knowing their strengths and weaknesses - strong but slow, devastating when he has any ranged options (in fact, in the official animatic commissioned by Jorge, the Cyclops struggles until it summons a club to knock out the Chimera)
In the least spoilery way possible - fidelity is actually very important to this story. Personally, i actually see Odysseus saying "let us puppets leave" as the very first time he actually humbles himself - because the ONE time he's willing to do that is directly after mentioning Penelope. It may sound extremely romantic, but thats kinda the point i feel :P I also believe that in Just A Man, hes being entirely sincere when he says all he does is for his son and wife.
I suppose the best thing for me to say is that above all else, the Odyssey is a love story.
I think it's better to say Epic is a love story.
As someone who recently reread The Odyssey bc of Epic, it's... not quite that LMAO
@@reilie9115 Same Setting different stories. It changes on the interpretation.
Being distracted by how good Talya/Circe is at singing is so real.
Ody not cheating on his wife is like one of the diffrences from the orginal Odssey i like, i think it makes him not only more likeable but also well i do belive his motvation isnt as selfsih as this videos tries to make him, his core motvation is his son and wife and loyalty to them.
That makes sense! I want to clarify what I mean by "selfish" - I'm not using it as a criticism or moral judgment. Rather, I see Odysseus as someone who deeply and genuinely loves Penelope and Telemachus while ALSO being driven by his own needs for stability, control, and survival (values that relate to 'the self' which is why I am saying self serving or selfish). What makes him such a fascinating character is that these motivations aren't contradictory - they're layered and intertwined.
His love for his family is authentic and powerful, but it's not the only force driving him. I think his love for his famil and desire to get home is both a genuine goal and a shield for his other motivations.
I don't think this makes him less compelling - if anything, it makes him more human. He can be both deeply loyal to his family and driven by self-preservation. Both his noble and self-serving impulses can be true at once.
@@JacobPenrodWrites I've found myself to agree with a lot of what you think and speculate, tho the only thing I do think you might be reading to much into is his love and yearning for his family (not the fact that he IS using Penelope as an anchor an IS his safety), he does miss them dearly, love them and wants to return to be by their side.
In the musical in full speed ahead he says he hasn't changed as a person, here applies what you said bout 10 years changing people, which is right, and would be addressed later on.
Edit: On the actual Odyssey he didn't want to go to war, and went as far as to fake being crazy until they threaten his son, tho it's not addressed in the musical, that is why it's made so clear in the musical his love and yearning for his family.
@@dafnemejia3946 Entirely possible! The way my brain tends to work on first watch-throughs is that I read too much into a billiion different things and then after the seeing everything and having the full landscape of the story I am able to trim the fat and refine a full theory. So what you are hearing from me is very raw and messy. I anticipate I will have a more nuanced view of the story by the time I finish!
actually, he didn't cheat in the original. he was coerced into sleeping with her (hermes told him to do everything she wants him to, he only did that to save his men)
Even in the Odyssey Odysseus was basically forced to give her children, he was also graped by Calypso for 7 years and forced to give her children as well.
Even in Ancient Greek Myth Ody is a loyal man to the end.
"Why do I trust Hermes?" Because you glossed over one of his first lines. When Hermes is introducing himself to Odysseus, the first thing he describes himself as is a friend, which is exactly what Odysseus was looking for in his relationship with Athena but is also exactly what we need to hear for us to also trust him as nobody else has said that this far.
So a few fun facts. Jorge (the author and Odysseus voice actor is dating Talya, they met after she auditioned and got the role of Circe and they just celebrated their 2 year anniversary which makes the fact that he wrote "our fates are intertwined, they're attached" before he knew her kinda funny or maybe is just my romantic ass speaking. Also, the 12 long years line was a mistake, Jorge was supposed to say 10 long years but got it wrong 😂
Fan cannon: Pancake(polities) was the one with the calendar so now the crew can't keep track of time.
Myth Odysseus actually having a Son with Circe makes this even funnier
im p sure its supposed to be 12 because (SPOILER ALERT) he is kept by calypso for 7 and returns home at the 20 years mark, so 12-13 makes sense
@@RealPendragonOdysseus stayed a year with Circe. Wikipedia is confident they had 3 sons and 1 daughter together, while listing 6 different characters as their sons
@@sophhuh2113Jorgr admitted it was a mistake in a RUclips short
So, I think this saga is a case of your overanalysis getting in the way of the narrative. While there are some ways in which Odysseus definitely _is_ self-serving, his love isn't one of them. Even from the beginning, the story has established that Penelope is _the_ thing that Odysseus cares about. It's _not_ just about "comfort" or "control". It's _her._ Penelope is irreplaceable in Odysseus' life. He would do anything, even something terrible and reprehensible like murdering a child, for the sake of being with her, and that's the context you have to take with you through the story. More than control, more than comfort, more than his own self image, the thing that Odysseus is most desperate for _is_ Penelope. Everything ties back to that. He'll take any risk, pay any price, if it means getting home to her, and all of his self-delusion comes down to needing to believe that he's still worthy of being her husband - that she'll still love him when it's all over.
He is also saying what you are saying, but again his defence is that whatever he is saying about control and comfort is what he feels is happening subconciously on odyssesu as a character, of course odysseus still love penelope and that family is his main force to keep going despite facing a lot of problems, which is what is happening conciously, he is not denying this fact, he is just adding besides this fact he feels like there are things happening deeper, ofc this is his opinion that is valid since this musical is open for any intrepertation.
While i do think what jorge choose as the outcome is better for the sake of odysseus as the main character for us and ofc i prefer ody to be a man wife's, but its really interesting if you think about it the way he is intreperting it, i mean the end always justify the means, if sleeping with her is the only way to get home and see his wife again, an alternate ody might do it, who knows 😅
While I suppose you could make an argument for Ody cheating, though Circe is a powerful enchantress/goddess so consent is dubious at best, I don’t think it really works for this instance. Circe only helps Ody (in EPIC at least) because he proves to her he’s NOT like all the other men she’s come across (who she views as pigs that’ll assault her nymphs) so seeing Ody resist her and talk so lovingly about his devotion to his wife, changes her perspective. If he’d actually cheated on Penelope here, Circe was planning to just kill him when he kissed her.
That is an excellent point and I hadn't considered it! I don't really have any context on Circe's backstory and motivations other than what was provided in the confines of the musical itself, and I wasn't sure how accurate the animatic was, so I didn't pick up on that. So while I still find it interesting to consider how accepting her advances aligns with his psychology, I hadn't full internalized the plot ramifications if that is indeed Circe's motivation.
@@JacobPenrodWritesYeah they don’t flat out say it, but that’s what the lyric “The last time we let strangers live we faced a heavy loss” implies. That strangers came to her island before, and they assaulted her nymphs. So now she takes EXTREME preventative measures to protect them from harm.
@@JacobPenrodWritesYeah the lyric “The last time we let strangers live we faced a heavy loss” implies men came to her island before, and assaulted her nymphs. So now Circe takes EXTREME preventative measures to protect them.
@@JacobPenrodWrites gigi's animatic is surprisingly close to canon! in jorge's script (shown in his livestream for the last saga), circe indeed has a dagger she was planning to stab odysseus with as they get closer, only to hide it when odysseus resists her advances.
edit: i forget gigi is one of the ogs who tuned in to jorge's livestreams with the script saga after saga, so it's safe to say she gets Circe as a character down and follows her animatics after the canon events closely.
@@JacobPenrodWrites Jorge and Talya also acted out the first verse There Are Other Ways right down to having a plastic spork as a dagger/sword that he was originally holding and she managed to take from his hand and have held to his back without him even noticing during the seduction bit haha.
His love for Penelope is the only genuine thing about Odysseus. You are right on with your assessment otherwise but trust in his love for Penelope. It's kinda the point of his character
34:40 not only is it a “men are pigs” thing but this section of the Odyssey is literally the origin or at least earliest writing of that connection and saying.
Would just like to clarify something here; the “men are pigs” statement in the odyssey does not have the same context as it does in today’s society. Whereas “men are pigs” is nowadays used in the context of men being sexually deviant animals who can’t control themselves, in Ancient Greece to be a “pig” was to simply be lazy. Circe’s implied past SA was completely made up by Jorge. In the Odyssey she did it just because she could
@@emerson4140tbf, Circe is not only a creation of the Odyssey, for what i remember she changed those who offended her. And she didn't only change them into pigs, but a variety of "beasts"
@@emerson4140wasnt that an actual thing tho? From what I remember in Circe canon, she was taken advantage of by sailors who'd pass by her island during their travels, wether it be stealing her treasures or... doing stuff to her or the Nymphs that was banished to her island. Eventually, tired from beint taken advantage of, she fought back and cursed the next group of sailors who tried to take an advantage of her or the nymphs.
Fact check me here, but I dont think Jorge pulled that backstory outta nowhere, sure it may not be an exact 1:1 but theres a reason for it.
@@emerson4140 Incorrect. The SA goes back MINIMUM to Madeline Miller's "Circe", which predates Epic by at least a few years, and MM is a Classics scholar, so she wouldn't have invented that wholecloth.
@ apparently that’s from a modern feminist retelling called “Circe” by Madeline Miller
Gigi’s Circe design is so iconic ❤
And given it's used in the livestreams, her depiction is Canon too!
Her puppeteer animatic was literally my bi awakening 😅
I think I disagree that his core urge is control, precisely because it's clear he'll deny acts that might give him more (perceived) control if it threatens his ties to Penelope. Where you are arguing that Penelope is an anchor for his mind and a method of control, I'd argue getting to Penelope is the core urge, and everything - killing the child, not sleeping with Circe, not trusting his crew - all comes back to going home. His desire for control is intrinsically tied to her, but won't overtake her.
That's honestly what I find so interesting about Odysseus! It's interesting to me that talking about or threatening Penelope is the hot button for him, will back him into a corner and make him do things he wouldn't normally. She's his line in the sand, and seeing people try to threaten that or move him past it and how he responds to that is super fascinating.
This is so interesting. Maybe instead of seeing Penelope as an anchor for his control issues, I should see his need for control as something that developed to protect his connection to her? Im not sure, but I find it a fascinating angle. Your reading adds an interesting layer to how trauma and love interact in his character - he's not just using love to justify his actions, but his trauma responses might have developed specifically around protecting that love.
@@JacobPenrodWritesI think this is it! His relationship with Penelope precedes his need for control. Control is a very natural response to trauma and coping strategy, trying to have control or believe you can control outcomes.
If you think back to the young Odysseus flashback in “Warrior of the Mind”, you see an Odysseus who hasn’t been through trauma yet. The cunning is there from a young age, the pride and cockiness is there, but he’s *relationally* oriented. He’s playful. His first thought with Athena is to be “bestest of friends”.
Later, he falls for Penelope, they have a great romance (we don’t get to see this on screen, but it’s implied by how he talks about Penelope and Telemachus as his whole reason for fighting).
He bargains with Zeus to try to keep the baby alive, seeing the similarities with his own son, not wanting to kill a child. *Connecting* with the child (relationally again, emotional).
There’s warmth in his voice when he talks to Polites and Eurylochus in “Full Speed Ahead”.
That warmth and playful air and cheer is *gone* after Cyclops saga. That’s when everything really changes. Visibly shaken by the loss of Polites - he freezes up! He dissociates! -and from there on out, he’s grappling for any kind of stability. The ground’s been pulled out from under him, he’s desperately grasping for control, safety, a way home, survival. Desperately trying to keep it together.
Odysseus is a deeply *emotional and relational* person. His wisdom isn’t cold; I think it’s informed by his understanding of people. Which makes for an interesting balance with Athena, whose wisdom is all rationality and tactics; she doesn’t understand the relational piece or the emotional aspect (and so her wisdom isn’t complete). Odysseus’s emotions overwhelm his rationality; meanwhile, Athena lacks full wisdom because she ignores emotion (and so her ignored emotions also affect her rationality, as I think we see in My Goodbye).
(But I also freely admit my own bias: I tend to see everything from a trauma psychology lens as a trauma therapist, so I could absolutely be reading too much into it too from that angle.)
@@JacobPenrodWrites I would generally say this is a more accurate viewpoint, Penelope isn't so much an anchor for his control issues, but rather his desire to maintain and keep that bond, the most important of his bonds, is exactly what causes his need for control and arguably everything he does, good and bad
yes this
The makn aspect of Odysseus is his longing to see his family again. Everything else is a means to the end. In the context of this musical that is his main goal and the reason he cares so much about getting home. If he cheated on Penelope it would basically invalidate his motivation because he would have betrayed his love for her
I totally understand that reading and think it is valid. I also think that Odysseus is such a brilliantly written character because it supports a more nuanced reading too. Throughout the story Odysseus has shown both conscious motivations (seeing his family again) and subconscious motivations (find stability and control so he can stop hurting). I do believe he cares about getting home and he loves Penelope, but I also think Penelope so strongly embodies this fulfillment of his subconscious motivation that even if he was unfaithful he would still rationalize and hold onto it. So while I dont think it is OUT of character to not cheat on Penelope, I do think that accepting Circe's advances still is well within the framework of what this character believes.
So while keeping Odysseus faithful is certainly a valid choice that works well dramatically, I don't think infidelity would necessarily break his characterization. This is a man who shows remarkable ability to rationalize his choices while holding onto his idealized goal. The musical establishes him as someone whose relationship with home and family is far more complex than simple devotion. His love for Penelope can be genuine while still allowing for human weakness and contradiction - that's what makes him such a brilliantly written character.
@JacobPenrodWrites Maybe it's because I've watched the whole musical but I physically cannot see a reality where Odysseus cheats on Penelope and still makes it back home. I understand what you're saying, but it would feel like a backpedal of his character to me.
Also also, Hermes in "Wouldn't you Like" warned that Circe had the power to make him fall in love her. He also warned that the Moly's power would only last until Odysseus had 'beaten his opponent.' After Odysseus declared himself the victor, Circe switched tactics. She knows about Moly so she likely also knew when it wore off. Therefore, 'There are Other Ways' feels very much like Circe putting him under a spell to seduce and more easily kill him. Odysseus remembers his wife once Circe is basically on him and shoves her away, signaling that his love for his wife broke him out the spell. Circe respects this because not only did he love his wife enough to reject her, he managed to do it while under her spell and therefore poses no threat in that way to her nymphs.
Granted, none of this has been explicitly confirmed by Jorge, but it is how I have interpreted it. I've seen many others think the same and it makes the most sense to me based on what we have
@ellapowell1316 I completely agree with the spell theory. I also feel a little bit disgusted by it because a spell that influences your thinking kinda automatically takes away your ability to consent properly. If Circe was really putting a spell on Odysseus, she would’ve basically been drugging him
@@emerson4140Indeed. It disgusts me, but I think it makes the most sense for Circe. She's lost at this point and she will do whatever it takes to keep her nymphs safe.
Let's just be grateful that Ody is such a wifeguy and everything worked out :D
@@JacobPenrodWritesnot so fun fact, in the Odyssey, they stayed on Circe's Island for a year because she was only willing to turn the crew back to humans if Odysseus slept with her, with him refusing up until the end, because even the earliest versions of Odysseus would never cheat on Penelope unless absolutely necessary, and even then that's less cheating and more getting r@ped. Sadly, Circe isn't the only one to r@pe him in the Odyssey, as you'll see in a future saga.
You were immediately charmed by Circe too. The Freudian slips of "attracting" when you meant "distracting" at 38:30 and then again with "Areolus" instead of "Aeolus" at 42:40. You also keep mentioning her voice and being distracted by it. So flustered! She's definitely the right VA for this character because she's so effective! 10/10
I deny everything 😂
Amazing. 10/10 Goddess impact 😂
It is technically in character for Odysseus to fall for Circe's trap but that's only if you look at him as a one-sided character whose only traits are that he's self-serving and so desperate for control over his life again. But he is all those things AND he's desperately in love with his wife, even past just the control and comfort that the thought of her gives. Odysseus's love for Penelope and for Telemachus is one of the few things that is truly genuine for him.
There Are Other Ways, I think, is meant to show that he *is* willing to give up that control and power if it's for Penelope. That he is self-serving *for* Penelope, to get back to her. So when the time comes, like here, that he can come closer to his goal of getting back to his wife by relinquishing control to someone who he believes knows the way, he will. Odysseus is just a wife-guy at his very core lol
Hermes is also the great grandfather of Odysseus. He is also a well known god that helps heroes without wanting something in return because aside from being the messenger god he's also the god of strangers and travelers; he's also a trickster god thus all he wants is the chaos that ensues if he throws some random cards into the hands of heroes that he helps.
PS: Yes Holy Moly is a magical herb that was mentioned in the Odyssey. Maybe it was also referenced in other greek works by that time period. It was called "Moly" but been called Holy Moly because it was magical.
Hermes wasn’t actually related Odysseus at all in the original myth. That was a later addition made up by Romans
@@emerson4140not sure where youre getting this from. Autolycus is said to be the son of hermes in apollodorus, a greek text, and is stated to be odysseus’s grandfather a few times throughout the odyssey itself
@@reilie9115 maybe I just haven’t found the right sources, but none of the texts I have mention Autolycus’ father as Hermes
@@emerson4140 like i said, apollodorus
@@reilie9115 If you are referring to Bibliotheca by Apollodorus (sometimes called Pseudo-Apollodorus, so as not to confuse him with Apollodorus of Athens [2nd century BCE Greek scholar]), while he wrote in Greek, he was a scholar and mythographer from either the 1st or 2nd century CE. During the time of the Roman Empire occupation of previously independent Greek city-states. Not that it detracts from anything as Apollodorus was using authentic Greek primary sources to write Bibliotheca, even talking about plays that no longer survive today. This gets into a whole discussion about Greco-Roman sources, and how should we distinguish the difference between authenticity of sources written in Greek but during Roman times and Latin sources that have co-opted a lot of myths and gods in a synchronistic attempt to assuage Greek populations after Roman occupation. They all fundamentally build on the material and are referential to wholly Greek myths (another topic when talking about gods like Dionysus), which is what the Greeks had been doing throughout their 420 year timespan, from Archaic to Hellenistic, prior to Roman occupation.
48:20 It would be out of character. He's stated his motivations over and over again since the first song. "I would trade the world to see my son and wife, I'm just a man." His one goal is to return to his family and everything he does is in service to this goal.
We have seen him throw away things he's held important to him in order to fulfill this goal. By deciding not to fight against the prophecy Zeus told him about, he gave up his control, his free will, and his morals in order to save Penelope and Telemachus. His need for control and his ego comes second to his family.
Odysseus never wanted to leave Ithaca and actively tried to avoid going to war, but he was forced to do so when Agamemnon and Palamedes came to hold him to his oath to give aid. Even then, he wasn't going to do it until Palamedes threatened his baby Telemachus.
What i like about Odysseus rejecting Circe's advances, is that your right at that point in the story you could see him giving into them and that fact is what makes that moment so tense because as a viewer your expecting him to do the worst and betray that trust and love for Penelope, only for the strongest aspect of His characterisation to come out, The true odysseys void of deceit, tactics and control. Only his love for his family and Penelope which trumps all for him. Its not out of character its his true character. Only other time we have seen this is when he was at his most introspective during just a man "Deep down i am just a man trying to get home, i would burn the world to see my wife and son"
I think with Hermes he feels trustworthy because there are no strings attached to his help. With Aeolus, she led with wanting to play a game, which would have consequences if Odysseus lost. Hermes leads with true facts about Circe and the Holy Moly, offers help, and doesnt stick around to see what comes of his help (in contrast to Aeolus who sees the wind bag through until its opened). I think he is very transparent in a way that Aeolus wasnt. Aeolus also spoke more abstractly with 'Keep your friends close and your enemies closer' in contrast to Hermes 'You can be hurt or you can beat her'.
I see your point and I raise you: besides Odysseus just being a huge romantic, he admitted that Penelope is 'all his power' and that's not just metaphorical. He's used the memory and love of Penelope to get him through a ten year war he didn't even want to go to! Through every hardship, you ask yourself "How could he possibly keep going? How does he come back from this?" And the answer is always that he has to make it back to Penelope. She's as much the love of his life as his mental anchor and the anchor to his will to keep fighting.
To cheat on her with Circe would be defeat. He'd have desecrated Penelope's memory for a temporary reprieve of "control". In his mind (in my opinion) he'd rather admit this tiny defeat and BEG for mercy than to give up the only thing that has kept him fighting. Because really, if he allows himself to give in, and replace Penelope with another woman, what's the point? What was the point of losing all of his men to this never ending fight? Both his mental anchor and his pride lay on the line if he cheats on his wife.
Ooooo I like this interpretation a lot! That’s a great layer.
Waiting ... Waiting..... all day to see this. Hope they keep coming
Glad you're still enjoying the show, hope it's still the case for the next sagas you've recorded! A lot of people that go really deep in interpretation tend to get upset when it doesn't work out but you're really open minded and that's great
I could see myself interpreting the character is a way that doesn't hold out through the show, but that would not upset me at all! At worst I might say "I dont fully buy it with the characterization that has been set up" but I am fascinated when I am wrong. Not attached to any of my ideas.
So, I had the same reaction to Hermes. I went down this whole rabbit hole about his Caddusis and Medicine but that is only associated with medicine because the army mistook it for Asclepius' staff. But apparently he is Odysseus' great grandfather.
But on a personal note the actor is INCREDIBLY personable
48:22 being tempted by circe does not give him nor comfort nor safety nor control. it would be a failure. Everyone was tempted by circe as a woman as a pupeter that will give them directions. Odyseus does not want that, he only want directions from penelope, not because she is his wife, but because she is her. not any woman will filled penelopes place because for him penelope is unique.
I appreciate this perspective, but I think risks oversimplifying Odysseus's character as shown in the musical. While Penelope is indeed unique to him, the musical repeatedly shows that she has become more symbol than person - representing the stability and control he's lost.
The key is that Circe actually could offer a form of control - not through puppeteering, but through emotional numbness. Remember, she offers to help him stop feeling the pain and guilt that haunts him. For a character we've seen consistently seeking ways to avoid processing his trauma, this would be incredibly tempting. At least I feel like we should see him grapple with the allure of that temptation some more.
Throughout the musical, Odysseus demonstrates that his attachment to Penelope, while genuine and full of love, is complex. He uses her memory to justify increasingly dark actions, showing that his love for her has become entangled with his need for control and stability.
So while staying faithful to Penelope works well dramatically, I do not feel that accepting Circe's advances would be out of character. This is a man who consistently rationalizes his choices while holding onto the idea of returning home. His complexity is what makes him such a compelling character.
@@JacobPenrodWrites Here’s why it feels in character: Odysseus does exactly what you’re saying in the original! Jorge changed it because he wanted to keep Ody faithful to his wife for modern audiences. But in The Odyssey, he stays on Circe’s island for at least a whole year in return for getting his men back, and even fathers at least one child with her.
@@TheTuneShifter See, I absolutely hate that but it also feels more in line with how I have understood the character up to this point. It is interesting how Jorge and I seem to see Odysseus a little differently. I wonder if that difference will become more or less pronounced as the show progresses.
@@JacobPenrodWrites Yes, but that complexity includes his loyalty. Him being Loyal to his crew and his family is a crucial part of this Odysseus. Accepting Circes advantage would not get him home to Penelope and Telemachus. His goal is not "Control" its get home to specifically my wife and my Son, and while he does justify some dark actions with needing to go home, that just shows his loyalty and longing for his family even more. "Its worth it if I can return to my wife and Kid" is not necessarily a longing for control, its simply missing the love of his life and his Baby
@@JacobPenrodWrites I agree it wouldn't be out of character for him and in the original myths he does sleep with her. For Epic as Jorge is a bit more of a romantic he made Ody's devotion to penelope be his main driving facet.
Everything he does is in a way linked to getting back home to her. which you are fully aware can lead him to do some truly horrific things.
I do disagree that for him it is just the memory of her driving him it is the knowledge that he has that if he just gets home she will help ease all those pains. thereby claiming that control you say he is craving.
I feel his reason for avoiding the trauma is less him not wanting to deal with it and more him knowing it will just hurt his chances of getting home.
I love your deep dive into his more cynical side- I don’t hear anyone really talk about it the same way you do- BUT, I feel like you seriously downplay or overlook his values in returning home to be with his family. I think rather than him using his family as an excuse (I can’t think of the word) to do these things, they are his main driving power. He will do whatever he has to do to get home to them like you noted in your first reaction that he’ll do whatever it takes. They are his one goal pushing him through every grief and downfall. They are above everyone, EVEN himself. He is selfish and conniving and tricky and all the good stuff, but he is that way for them, not for himself. Just the way I see it,
I don’t comment often but I loved the reaction so I thought I’d share!! Love all the way
Haha you just laid out MY central character arc as I went through the future sagas. I slowly start realizing how genuine his love is as it progresses. I do still this it doubles as an escape and a coping mechanism, but it is also so true at the same time. What I love about Odysseus is that his love is both a survival mechanism that he uses to justify increasingly dark actions AND a genuine expression of something he feels at his very core. He embodies both at the same time
You keep mentioning control as a main motivator for Odysseus, but the problem is Odysseus doesn't have control over any of the situations hes in, and Odysseus is very aware of that fact. He had not control over the fate of the baby, he had no control over the death of his friend, he had no control over the deaths of his crew, and he knows he has no control over Circe. Odysseus is "just a man" in a world full of gods who at the snap of a finger can kill hundreds of people.
Odysseus is prideful, but he's not an idiot. His goal in every situation he is put in is to minimize damage to himself and his men. Though you will see that his emotions often get in the way of that outcome. Anger, sadness, guilt, and hope fuel him.
The whole song from Hermes is very telling about how Odysseus views himself. Wouldn't you like a taste of the power. The power that he doesn't normally have. Odysseus knows that the best thing he can do is talk and scheme, but in the end he doesn't have any real power. Especially not up against gods. He knows that, thats why he takes it.
He gets cocky, he does talk himself up, but that is all in service of the goal of getting out of the situation. His main motivator is not control, its survival.
The reason he brings up the puppet line to Circe, is because thats just the honest truth. He doesn't have the ability to defeat her, but he can try to change her mind.
Circe is also not stupid, if Odysseus was merely just posturing, she would be able to tell. Odysseus even blusters and postures to her in done for and she sees right through it immediately. If he wasn't being genuine this would not work, and the message of this saga would not hit home. That sometimes honesty and vulnerability do work. Also, we have seen Odysseus outright lie before and while he is good at it he ain't that good. Case and point the Cyclops.
And while yes, Odysseus wants comfort and for his pain to be over. The musical makes it painstakingly clear, that the only comfort he wants is from his wife. This point will only be driven home further. The "i'm not sure I follow", line is not him being obtuse, he is just hoping she's not insinuating what he thinks she's insinuating, lol.
While I understand your take, I think painting him only as a coniving trickster does a disservice to the character. He can be both a character desperate to prove to himself that he is a good person, and also be in grief over the loss of over 500 of his men and not want to lose anymore. Just because he does terrible things, does not mean that he likes doing terrible things or has evil intentions while doing them.
"When does a man become a monster" is the theme of the musical. This theme would not work if he was an outright monster in the beginning.
I love the reaction by the way, I cant wait to see the next one, I am sorry for the essay😅
You trust Hermes because he isn't hinting at an ulterior motive or quid pro quo. He's not asking for a game, a price, or asking for a favor unlike other deities. He's simply stating the facts and offering a solution. Plus he sought out and approached Odysseus, not the other way around. Its like Athena, he was watching nearby until Odysseus noticed him so he's put in a mentor/watcher role.
Odysseus, even in the original source material(the Odyssey) doesn’t cheat on Penelope(except in Roman myths, screw Ulysses).
He is coerced by Circe and told by Hermes ‘do it if you want your men back, or else she’ll kill all of them and then you’.
And with Calypso(who’ll you meet later), just assaults him for seven years straight. He is described as crying everyday on the shore of her beach, begging to go home and return to Penelope.
I understand why you pictured Odysseus in the way you did, which is aiming for power. But the reason why it made more sense to you that he would be unfaithful is because of the way you've pictured him which I haven't seen a lot of people or rather I haven't seen anyone at all do. A different picture would be that Odysseus' only goal is to get back home to his wife and son (the phrase repeated in the first song of the first saga "What do you live for, what do you fight for..."), and that he's willing to take all these risks and reckless actions just to make it back home to them.
Regardless tho- I am loving the reactions and story analysis!! You've provided insight to a lot of symbolism that went over my head even though I've been listening to the songs endlessly! Thank you so much for these fun daily reactions!!
In the odyssey he does accept her advances BUT not willingly. Here’s some excerpts from the Odyssey of when Hermes was warning him “When Circe strikes you with her long stick, you must draw your sword from your side and rush at her as though you mean to kill her. She will shrink from you in terror and invite you to her bed. You must not refuse to goddess’s favours, if you want her to free your men and look after you. But make her swear a solemn oath by the blessed gods not to try any more of her tricks on you, or when she has you stripped naked she may rob you of your courage and your manhood.” And it goes as he says with Circe as she tells Odysseus “But now put up your sword and come with me to my bed, so that in making love we may learn to trust one another.” She swore an oath and didn’t trouble them anymore and took Odysseus to bed. But as it is obviously stated here, he basically used himself as a bargaining chip to save his men and give them the care and food needed. They stayed there for months and then left. I just went looking for this part in the book since im still reading the illiad but i was surprised when everyone referred to Odysseus as “Favourite of Zeus” which like- really?
What I think is that, because you analyze Odysseus so much, you find other, less wholesome motives behind his actions, and then you paint him as a worse person than even the creator may have intended for him to be. Not saying you’re wrong, but I think the reason you think Odysseus would do these bad things is because in your mind, you have leaned into home being more self centered, which again, could be true, but another person may argue that all of Odysseus’ actions are driven out of pure love for his family. In my personal opinion, if there is one thing that you can never doubt, is Odysseus love for his family because it has not wavered throughout the entire musical. Then again, this is coming from someone who watched the musical through without trying to figure out who Odysseus truly was. Compared to my interpretation of him though, your interpretation of him paints him as a much worse person. To me he is just grappling with his priorities. And you see them slightly change throughout the musical. Anyways, I’ve seen the whole thing already so maybe that’s why my view of him is different. Over all a great analysis, I just hope that you can actually enjoy the songs full by doing this. One thing I would recommend is if you look at the whole song first then you analyze it, instead of analyzing as you go. Because trust me, in the last saga, you’re gonna want to listen to the songs straight through. It may lead to a lot of confusion if you don’t.
Just note that this is all just my opinion and I wanted to place my comment here but I love your reactions and really hope you continue all the way to the end
The fact that Talya is able to draw you in and distract you is evidence that she was the perfect casting for Circe
The woman who voices Circe is played by Jorge's real-life girlfriend, Talya. The fact that Jay released this saga on valentines Day is just so adorable to me.
Plus, one of Ody's crew did die on Circe's island. His name was Elpenor. He got drunk and fell off the roof of Circe's palace and broke his neck.
31:10 Moly was indeed mentioned in the Odyssey, but the phrase Holy Moly actually has no direct connection to it! It's a minced oath for "Holy Mary", or possibly "Holy Moses".
That is fascinating!
also a play on holy(divine) moly
It is cannonical to the Odyssey(which epic is based on) that Hermes is Ody's great grandfather through his mother. I think this is why Ody accepts his help more readily then others and why Hermes was willing to give such help. You might be picking up on the fact that Ody trusts him. Ody actually has a really good sense of trust and when to give it. He just also has an overfilled sense of his abilities that isnt always correct.
My man, I have been loving your analyses. I can't wait until you make more more writing videos!
20:20 thank you! Yes! Its a relatively agree idea on the epic fandom that circe is the balance between open arms and Ruthlessless. She is by all acounts willing to do whatever it takes to protect her nymphs. But she is not merciless, if she is shows someone can be trust, she'll give that trust. Maybe no fully, she probably will have a back up if she is wrong. But she wil try. Being Ruthless but merciful. I love circe so much 💓
45:42 if you listen closely after ody reject's circe's advances and walks away the tune that starts playing is penelope's theme letting you know she is the reason why he can't continue
Without Mythological Insight: Honestly, the trust towards Hermes could easily just be because of the sharp mood shift from puppeteer and the upbeat and groovy-like music? As well as his bubbly child-like laughter. Gives him very much free soul vibes.
With Mythological knowledge: Hermes is actually rather well known to do things just for fun rather than wanting anything in return! As well, Odysseus is technically his like… great grandson depending on which version of the mythos you look into.
And you were correct that moly is mentioned in the Odyssey as it is an ancient plant with magical ties in multiple practices if I remember right?
48:02 also, in the actual Odyssey, yes, yeah, he does in fact Indulge and be unfaithful, so you weren’t far off
I didn't see anyone else answer you but yes, he canonically summons a cyclops according to Jorge. Love your analysis~ Its so unique! You've got a market cornered, don't worry about over thinking or anything you just give us your raw opinions! I *love* your new insight into Ody, and I think you're really right! People are just talking with fore-knowledge and using their own conclusions. Btw! The next Saga is my personal Favorite. So i really hope you enjoy it!!!!
In regards to it making sense for the character to accept circes advances. In the original Odyssey he does. However in pretty much all versions of it, its under coercion be ut a spell or an ultimatum. So your pretty spot on with that. jorge of course takes his own liberties with his telling if it and his extreme dedication to the idea of his loyalty and dream of penelope is a big factor in his version. Thiugh this early in the story it really leaves you in the edge of his seat because you really feel like hes gonna give in to his lust until that last moment.
Obviously an adaptation should stand on its own and set itself apart from the source material, but I think it bears mentioning: in Homer's Odyssey, the whole Circe debacle was very much about Odysseus losing control completely. Hermes outright tells him the moly is only temporary, that to save his men he will have to become Circe's lover to convince her. He stays with her for a year before being allowed to leave, and it's quite obvious in the writing he's coerced the whole way, as he just leaves with his men without looking back when given the chance.
People often misunderstand this part of the story, thinking he's cheating on Penelope while he expects her to remain loyal, but coercion is not consent. Circe is a goddess, and had power over him from the moment she turned his men into pigs. I understand why it was changed in Epic, as actually exploring this aspect of the story would make Circe quite unsympathetic, and the musical works hard to hunanize each of Odysseus's enemies and obstacles, so it wouldn't work, and would have even made Odysseus himself far less likable.
your description of the whole thing is a bit... hm. first of all hermes' instructions include this: "When Circe touches you with her elongated wand, then draw that sharp sword on your thigh and charge, as if you were intent on killing her. She’ll be afraid. And then she’ll order you to sleep with her. At that point don’t refuse to share the goddess’s bed, if you wish to free your crew and entertain yourself. But tell her she must swear a solemn oath, on all the blessed gods, not to make plans to harm you with some other injury, so when you are in bed completely naked, she won’t change you to an unmanned weakling." so while there is definitely a consent issue here and he didn't go into it happily, he wasn't *entirely* powerless.
the description of him being trapped with circe is just inaccurate. this wasn't the same as the years with calypso, he stayed because he wanted to. in fact it's odysseus' men who have to beg him to leave: "We stayed there, day by day, for one whole year, feasting on sweet wine and huge stores of meat. But as the months and seasons came and went, the long spring days returned. A year had passed. My trusty comrades summoned me and said: ‘You god-driven man, now the time has come to think again about your native land, if you’re someone who’s destined to be saved and reach your lofty home and soil once more.’ My proud heart was persuaded by their words." and circe's response? "Resourceful Odysseus, son of Laertes and Zeus’s child, if it’s against your will, you should not now remain here in my house."
the idea that he never looked back is also straight up false, they go back to her island after leaving the underworld: "Our ship sailed on, away from Ocean’s stream, across the great wide sea, and reached Aeaea, the island home and dancing grounds of Dawn. We sailed in, hauled our ship up on the beach, then walked along the shore beside the sea. [...] Circe finished speaking. And our proud hearts agreed with what she’d said. So all that day until the sun went down we sat there eating rich supplies of meat and drinking down sweet wine. The sun then set, and darkness came. So we lay down and slept beside our ship’s stern cables. But Circe took me by the hand and led me away, some distance from the crew. She made me sit, while she stretched out beside me on the ground. I told her every detail of our trip, describing all of it from start to finish" and then she tells him literally everything he needs to know about the sirens, scylla, charybdis and the cows.
also cheating in ancient greece wasn't at all seen the way cheating is in our times. men sleeping with goddesses, war prizes, prostitutes or fellow soldiers wouldn't be seen as cheating, especially if it's far away from their homes.
tldr: yes, the sexual encounter between them could at best be labelled dubious consent and the short description we get of odysseus' feelings about it beforehand point to him being more unwilling to do it than anything else, but he wasn't trapped by circe and she was in fact one of the most helpful figures he encounters throughout the story. it's a weird dynamic and imo why it was for the best that jorge changed it.
The Circe saga is one of my favorites! Talia’s voice is incredible and Hermes is so much fun! And I adore Gigi’s Circe design.
The talent that exists in this fandom is insane. People make such high quality animatics that really add to the experience. I’m glad you’ve been loving this whole thing so much.
I feel like even without knowing any mythology we trust Hermes because the song is groovy and makes you go along with the rhythm as well as the fact that Hermes cracks jokes and just tells you what it is- you don’t see as many ulterior motives or greater goal with him
I've watched Gigi's animatic of There Are Other Ways like a hundred times, and only this time did I actually catch that Circe's last lines are not a repetition. She said "Maybe one day the world will need a puppeteer no more, *or* maybe one day the world will need a puppeteer *more."*
She's saying that she doesn't know whether mercy or ruthlessness is what the world needs, but that between her and Odysseus they will adapt to whichever is required.
Such good writing!
I think the character we see him as in "the Horse and the Infant" is different from the person he was when he first left for war. There's some wear on him, and that wear continues to increase throughout the musical. His philosophy is challenged, his perspective changes, and he struggles with conflicting but true aspects of himself. I think that the more he goes through, the more he loses, the less altruistic and selfless he can bring himself to be out of fear. I don't think that means he was never a more selfless and altruistic person than not in the past and I think he struggles to accept that the events throughout the musical and the war preceding it have changed him, are changing him, and are likely to change him more. I also think that he's fearful that he'll change so much or because of such a significantly hurtful thing that he will be unable to ever be the person he wants for himself to be, the person he was closer to being before he left. A lot of the things he says in places have dual uses, but I think there's a lot of honesty in what he tells people, or at least his crew/Eurylochus.
I do think he knew, deep down, that he would trade the world to see his son and wife again like he said. But even when he was saying that in "the Horse and the Infant", he deeply did not want to have to go there, and just the idea of doing things akin to trading the world to do so deeply hurt him inside. Odysseus is pained by everything that's been happening. He longs to be a father to his son and have the opportunity to spend time with and love them. She is all his power; his drive to get home, the source of his willingness to endure all of the pain he goes through throughout the musical, and the strength to change from who he is in order to get back, though it scares and hurts him inside to do so. In this scene with Circe, he's strained, and tired. He's hurting, and definitely missing that gentle, intimate connection with someone, whether physical, emotional, or romantic. He won't allow himself to cheat on her, and at the point that he begs Circe to let them leave, he's wanting desperately to not have to fight or hurt more people to get out of this situation and past this ordeal. He's asking for kindness and help, like he asks Poseidon to forgive. Respect and kindness given in the hopes of getting respect and kindness in return.
And he does so by first ensuring to her that he'll leave her safety and the safety of the nymphs she cares for as a boundary uncrossed. I'm not sure what he'd do if she chose to not help him, or to further try to harm him, but I don't think he'd have settled on giving up on getting home by that point, no matter what he had to do. I see this scene with her, after he rejects her advances, as one of the significant points where he's struggling to follow Polites' beliefs about Open Arms, and to keep the hope that that can work in this world alive, while also being able to still get home. As Polites said, "You can show a person that you trust them when you stop and lower your guard....Whatever we face, we'll be fine if we're leading from the heart. No matter the place, we can light up the world. Here's how to start: greet the world with open arms, greet the world with open arms."
12:31 i love how even in the very start of circe singing she says "i got you, dont worry circes got you" i thought the same thing. jorge is so good at writing lyrics with double meanings and wordplay
16:58 "I got distracted by the mysterious feet." - InkWrites 2025 😂
My personal reading of this saga is that it shows how willing ody is to let go of his control and power for Penelope and his son. i think thats the whole purpose of the last song, and why he say hes a puppet after trying so hard to maintain control
DUDE ITS BEEN ONE DAY. YOU'VE DONE THIS FOUR DAYS IN A ROW.
And I already have the next three sagas edited and ready to go! I literally cannot stop watching this show 😭
@JacobPenrodWrites oh fuck here we go
@@JacobPenrodWrites Give us now! :D
@@JacobPenrodWrites i'd ask you to release the hostages, but you're already being plenty generous by giving us 1 saga per day 😂
@@phantom_flame honestly WE owe Him for doing so much
you talked about how the line "I can only hope you'd do the same" is manipulative, and I think it is but for a different reason. I don't think he is trying to make it reciprocal as much as he was just trying to guilt Eurylocus for wanting to leave there
I WAS CHECKING YOUR CHANNEL FOR THE UPDATE BECAUSE I AM OBSESSED WITH YOUR ANALYSES
I think you may have the most cynical perception of Odysseus that I’ve seen in a reactor, haha. Other reactors are very quick to believe that he is a good man put in very bad situations, and that he’s cunning and deceptive when necessary, but usually a pretty forthright leader. You seem to think he’s lying if his mouth is moving, haha. And you may be more correct than other reactors. 🤷♀️
From my perspective, the part of him calling himself a puppet to Circe was him finally letting his walls down. Instead of his usual arrogance which did not succeed in defeating Circe, he’s just real with her and shows her his humanity and desperation instead trying to show himself as a god or unquestionable leader. (Maybe something could be said about how he trauma dumps on the first woman he’s seen in years, but that’s another discussion) This actually works with Circe and tells us about her character and serves as a lesson for Odysseus.
It’s so interesting how you read Odysseus, because that’s very much how the original character is portrayed in the Odyssey. And in the original version he does sleep with her (and yes Hermes does tell him to do it, but still) You’re so great at character development!
Odysseus *does* fall to Circe's advances in the original odyssey, but it should be noted how both of his affairs occur in the story, and how Penelope contextualizes them when she finds out (no i don't accept the Telegony as an extension of the Odyssey).
Circe is either a God or a very powerful Nymph. if she wants to force it, Odysseus - or any other man - has as much power to resist as any woman has to resist Zeus' advances. Odysseus' affair is VERY dubiously consensual on his part. She is offering the only method by which he can return home, as well as holding his men and supplies hostage as they are stuck on her island for two years.
Meanwhile his affair with Calypso (mild, tangential spoilers for a coming saga, but the character is changed so much from her original that talking about them as two completely seperate people is more fitting) is plainly stated to be her forcing herself upon him. for eight years, as she holds him prisoner on her island. lines referencing him spending every night sitting upon the beach, weeping for his wife. Etc, Etc.
i've really liked your analysis of the musical so far, but the whooosh of ody's love for penelope and his goal sincerely being just getting home to see his wife and son going over your head because you're thinking too many layers deep is very funny
I think a big part of why Hermes seems more trustworthy is because when he laughs, it seems like Odysseus (and the audience) just aren't in on the joke. But with Aeolus, it's like Odysseus is the joke.
Edit: Odysseus' reaction to them is also extremely different. Since he's the main character, a lot of our expectations are influenced by that.
I think what makes Hermes instantly trust worthy is that Odysseus immediately recognized him and was excited and happy to see him and seemed to know him already. So I think we trust Hermes because Odysseus does. Which makes sense because I've learned from this fandom that Hermes is Odysseus's maternal gradfather
Since you're zooming through these, I'd like to recommend that you watch the entire livestream for the Ithaca saga so you can get a glimpse of the cast's personality (aka a bunch of tipsy theatre kinds hanging out) and get the maximum amount of nostalgia when it comes to an end
Jorge messed up with the years. His mistakes haunts him still
Eh if he wants but it's not the most fun to set up a 3 hour recording and Do all that, maybe if he released a video every week, but he's doing it every day so he wouldn't get much from the recap
I'm so happy you are speed running this because I found your epic reactions today and now I want you to get to every saga yesterday! Very thoughtful analysis! I've listened this musical through multiple times and listened other analysis and you still managed to get something new out of it I'm amazed
hermes is like one of the gods that just does stuff no strings attached, he just wants to see what happens most of the time. Still that is pretty odd for a trickster god who's also the god of thieves (and travellers/other things i forgot)
Tldr: he's just like that
I think what makes Hermes likeable is that he's honest about the situation. He presents things as they are. "Hey, you're probably gonna die here, you need help, here's a thing that can help you face it." He's not applying any sort of condition, he's not asking anything of Odysseus in return.
I think in this case he WAS being selfish not sleeping with Circe. So it’s not so out of character for him. For all he knew the only way to save his men was to be with Circe. He was willing to put his men at risk for the love of his wife. Which goes back to the ‘trade the world to see my son and wife’. So still self serving, because from the beginning he made his motivations known: PENELOPE…. and Telemachus. He was in luck that Circe helped him because he refused to sleep with her. He could have permanently lost the men he was so gung-ho to save by saying no. I’m loving your reactions by the way!
Oooh yes. Good point! “Want to save your men from the fire? / Show me that you’re willing to burn” makes it sound like the only way his men will be released is if he sleeps with her, so refusing because of his love for Penelope is the “more selfish” thing to do with the information he has :D
Fun fact: one of the men (named Elpenor) was not turned into a pig he actually died not by Circe herself but by getting so drunk he fell down and broke his neck no one noticed so they didn’t give him a proper burial
Hermes is one of those characters who will do something for you and expect nothing in return except entertainment he’s also Odysseus great grandfather and Circe’s EX
Hermes is not only the god of messages but also the god of trickery which is why Odysseus is related to him
Did you notice in the flashback there were *four* nymphs but in the present there are now *three* nymphs *also* Odysseus men were not the reason for that it was another group that came before them
I think in the stories for this some of it is debatable whether it was consensual on Odysseus end
So here’s something funny: the creator accidentally made a mathematical error it’s actually still been 10 years not 12 years but by the time the creator had this pointed out and he realized it’s true it was already too late
Fun fact: when Odysseus voice is high like we see him begging to Circe it’s Odysseus showing vulnerability when there are some strains where he’s trying not to let his vulnerability get to him and sometimes failing
While I agree with a lot of your points, I find your interpretation of Ody is quite uncharitable towards the fact that while he's a cunning man, he's also got actual sincerity inside him- I don't believe he wants to save his men for any reason other than that he values them. If you read his actions as less altruistic as they are in that moment, I think that it makes the impact of Scylla much less. He must have goodness and sincerity inside him to have something to lose- otherwise this isn't a negative character arc, it's just a static arc with a bunch of fluff on top, which makes it a lot less interesting.
i feel like eurylochus has always been on a more cautious side. back in the troy saga he felt confident suggesting a raid because back then they had the numbers, and pillaging a small island at once with the element of surprise really was a safer option than sending scouts/negotiators, risking their lives and giving the enemy time to prepare
Sad I couldn't watch yesterday but back to it today!! I need a montage of all the times you say something at the same time or immediately after the characters!
Something I really like about Puppeteer is the lyric "Circe's got you now" - there's three whole meanings! Circe's "got them" as in going to take care of them, but the hidden meaning is that she's "got them" at her mercy. The third meaning, which the animatic highlights by a brief interaction she has with one of her nymphs, is reassuring her own "daughters" that the situation is under control. The latter isn't necessarily canon, but it's completely in line with her later dialogue about her own motives, so I really love that detail in Gigi's animatic.
I do really like your analysis of every character paralleling Odysseus, but I think it's also worth emphasizing that our boy contains multitudes. The part of him that is brutal and manipulative can exist alongside the part that yearns for earnest connection, safety, and comfort. He is, in the first line of Homer's Odyssey, called a "man of many twists and turns". He is fundamentally multifaceted, and all of those parts of him are equally him. I think this helps make sense of some of his actions and reconcile them: he is the man who poisoned the Cyclops because he wouldn't risk it, but he is also the man endlessly faithful to his wife. I do agree that he both loves Penelope sincerely *and* holds onto her as an ideal and representation of hope that keeps him going, but I don't actually think it can be said that any human who loves another person DOESN'T do that to some degree.
I believe he is sincere when he begs Circe for mercy. My reasoning is primarily focused on the larger narrative structure: when he tried to give the Cyclops a chance to let them go, he had already poisoned him. When he apologized to Poseidon, it was only to get out of that situation, and that was all he wanted. Of course he failed back then. But with Circe, he gives up his advantage and places himself at her mercy - and this is the only time so far that the narrative allows him to succeed when he begs for help, because he is fully sincere. His heart is on his sleeve, and he has no other recourse if she decides to kill him. It's a pure leap of faith in her humanity.
"There are many ways of persuasion" - one of those ways is simply laying his heart bare to her. He is a man of many twists and turns!
Further evidence: frequently when Ody is expressing himself sweetly and sincerely, Jorge uses that high, sweet falsetto. "Let us puppets leave", and back in The Horse and the Infant/Just a Man when he's singing to the baby, and I believe when he sings about Penelope a couple times. Notably, when confronting the Cyclops and giving his false name "nobody", he also uses falsetto, but it ends on a lower note, betraying the falseness with which he's presenting himself. Just thought that was a cool detail in the music that signals to the audience how they're supposed to read his demeanor!
Excited to get to watch TWO videos today, so let me go get to the next one. Can't wait for Thunder saga >:)
10 years. Jorge said he made a mistake with the lyric lol, so you're right. It's 10 years not 12
I love your analysis,I do think this is the one point you got wrong though, odyssey is desperate for Penelope and Telemachus, he’s desperate for the life he once held so close, so yes comfort control, BUT I do not think it’s in Odysseus’s character at all (in epic) for him to accept Circe’s advances. In the actual odyssey this can be questioned more, but I don’t think it’s really up for debate in epic itself. This is all just my personal opinion though, I so love watching you go through all these different thoughts though
Thank you for the thoughtful response! You make a fair point about Odysseus's desperation for his former life with Penelope and Telemachus. I agree completely that keeping him faithful ALSO works well within Epic's narrative framework.
Where I might differ slightly is in saying it's not up for debate-I think what makes Epic such a rich adaptation is how it portrays Odysseus's psychology with multiple layers. His desperation to return home is genuine, but it's also become intertwined with his need for control and his pattern of self-deception
That said, you're absolutely right that the Epic version of Odysseus has been intentionally made distinct from Homer's original, and what works in one telling might not work in another. The musical chose to keep him faithful, and that choice serves its themes and character development beautifully. I personally think it might have worked a LITTLE stronger had he chosen to accept Circe's advances, but when it comes down to it that is just trying to tell a different story than it seems Jorge is interested in telling. Both are valid and I could see Odysseus doing either while still being in character.
I appreciate you!
@ that is very true!! Like I said love your reactions, thank you for this thoughtful response!
dude while i agree that Penelope is an idealized version and a symbol i feel like you are forgetting that their love story is like symbolic for a love that survives through basically everything, especially from Penelope's side it's absolute loyalty to her husband and in Epic that's entirely mirrored by Odysseus. if there's something this Ody doesn't play about is Penelope.
If we go by your interpretation of the core of what Odysseus truly seeks for being control, then it still makes sense he would resist Circe. If he slept with her, he wouldn't be in control. She's the one making the advances, she's the one who holds control in that situation. She's the puppeteer. If anything, he would be giving up control if he slept with her. He would be "just a man", not the deified, untouchable version of himself.
Fun fact about hermes, odysseus's granfather is a child of him! So one of the reason hermes may be helping ody other than just chaos and fun- is a bit of nepotism. Hermes is also the god of travellers, which ody absolutely falls under
Odyseus is a package addressed to Penelope, Hermes wants to help deliver it
@@omalleycaboose5937 for real! It is fascinating that hermes originally was going to be a bit more cut throat, but that was rewritten
Although the idea of Odysseus being Hermes’ great grandchild is fun, there’s no actual basis for it in the original myth
@emerson4140 the gods are just chaotic their personalities fluid, im sure there are times when even Zeuse is a nice guy, it just seemed fun to help Ody. Plus if he's the god of travelers, and she traps and kills travelers, that's kinda his domain to do something about
46:59 it's actually 10 and Jorge messed up. He admitted to that.
But my headcanon is that the entire saga - from Ruthlessness to There Are Other Ways is in the span of less than a day and poor Odysseus starts feeling it. He's exhausted.
Having these everyday is a treat, and nearly a full hour? YES
Also for Hermes, despite being known as a trickster god, I think it's just his personality. Its almost addicting and draws you in similar to how you are with Circe's voice..
New headcanon: Troy is actually a siren
@KaulitzWolf that's just accurate
As for Ody not cheating, this is one of the moments that helps anchors Ody's love and fidelity as a core trait of his. He keeps referencing them, and he keeps choosing them. He kills the baby bc Zeus says they'd die if he didn't and now even with Circe tempting him, he can't betray Penelope in that way.
Anyway, unrelated I can't wait for your Underworld reaction :)
Questioning Odysseus‘s love for Penelope is almost as bad as someone calling her a tramp
So about the 12 year thing - it's a running joke in the fandom that Polities was in charge of the calendar cuz he didn't wanna miss anybody's birthday anD I AM SOBBING 😭
My favorite headcanon
his justification for all his wrongs is tied to I would do anything for my wife and son, so he can not betray her or he is a monster to himself.
I find the dynamics of consent in the last song fascinating.
Because, neither Circe nor Odysseus are consenting technically speaking. Despite Circe being the one advancing, she's only doing so as a self defence tactic after losing the head on fight. I believe she does not desire to sexualise herself in that moment, but the circumstances call for her to use it as a tactic against Odysseus, to try and get him off his guard.
And that's fascinating to me.
That is such an interesting take!!
Yay, another great reaction! What I really like, just a small moment in gigi's Puppeteer animation, when Circe is saying "don't worry, I got you" the second time, she turnes to one of her nymphs, and the meaning of that phrase changes to "don't worry I don't let them hurt you, I got you". Which I find fascinating, how a small detail like this can change stuff. Also, the cyclops is canon, Jorge said it in a video. Reason being this is a beast, Ody would be most familiar with. And the 12 years IS an error on Jorge's part, he realized it too late (also has a short video about it) and it's now a running joke within the fandom, that Odysseus either can't count or Polites had the calendar, and since he is dead (rip :( ) they no longer can tell how many years passed 😅. Can't wait for the Underworld saga tomorrow, that one is soooo gooooood.
Btw I really enjoyed your "messy" reaction, it was so genuine and fun 😊
In my opinion, i think you have Ody's motivations backwards. Instead of viewing his selfishness as part of the reason he love Penelope, becuase she represents comfort and a controled environment. I think he is selfish becuase of his love for Penelope, his self serving comes from the want to return to Penelope. He does the things he does becuase he believes it will help him get home in some way.
Obviously that doesnt always apply, like with the cyclops, but i think the moments in which he is selfish and self serving come from a place of caring for others. He let the cyclops live, not because he wanted him to live with defeat, but because ody loved polites and believed he was honoring him by granting mercy.
In that way i dont think it fits his character to sleep with circe. Because he is motivated by love, not selfishness. His selfishness comes from the believe that he is acting out of love for the people he cares about.
Other Ways really shows just how much of Ody's character is built on his love of Penelope. It's not just a core aspect, it is THE core aspect.
also with your comments about how it'd be in character for ody to go through with circe's proposition- in canon he actually does! epic the musical takes a fair bit of liberty, this being one of the deviations- likely to make odysseus a more likable protagonist and to strengthen the idea of him prioritizing HIS goal over his men. Although he goes to save the men, when push comes to shove he can't sacrifice part of his goal, penelope, to save them. He quite literally showed her he is NOT willing to burn- rather he was willing to burn his men for his goal.
That is fascinating!! I am not sure which version of events I prefer from a storytelling perspective, gonna need to think on that, but in terms of maintaining pure likability I think Jorge definitely made the safer call
@@JacobPenrodWrites I'm also personally torn. On one hand the original shows Odysseus's dedication to his cause and that sense of control he needs- but epic's version might actually be more inherently selfish as he's prioritizing Penelope over his men
I’d like to add that canonically Odysseus was SA’d by Circe, he did not cheat. Yes he slept with her and stayed on her island for a year in the odyssey, but she was a powerful witch and goddess who was the daughter of Helios himself. If Odysseus refused her, he could’ve gotten himself and his crew killed. Sex with coercion and imbalanced power dynamics is never consensual
Yes he 100% summoned a cyclops. The roar is the same exact as Polyphemus.
Funny you say it wouldn't be out of character for him to give in to Circe, because he actually did in the original Odyssey. Jorge decided to make him the ULTIMATE simp for his wife though, and this decision will actually come back later lol (not in a huge way but it's just great continuity)
Also to add to the 10 vs 12 years mistake that many people have already mentioned, the community headcanon now is not only that Polites was the only one that kept track, but that the reason he was the one that kept track was to remember everyone's birthdays lol
Hermes never promises Odysseus anything, only that he has something that COULD help. He also doesn't seem to be sowing distrust. Aeolous repeatedly mentions the untrustworthiness of his crew and killing them, whereas Hermes simply says "Here is what you are up against. I can give you the tool you need, but the rest is up to you." He doesn't even try to make Odysseus insecure (and therefore rely on him more), he simply says the reality of things and offers an upgrade.
whats interesting is in the original source myth he absolutely gave into her advances
it was changed for epic, because odysseus being absolutely loyal to his family is both a positive and negative character trait for him here. because he will both love them always and do things that are absolutely abominable if its all for them
Well a caveat to that is that Hermes told him to give in to her advances in order to save his men. There's some questionable consent there at the very least.
Really enjoy listening to your analyses, InkWrites! One thing you may want to do for at least Act 2 is check out the official release party animatics (currently up on Jorge's channel), especially as there are a few songs closer to the end where visuals really, really matter and where the official animatics differ significantly plot-wise from fan-made ones.
30:25 I think the reason why we wind up trusting Hermes so quickly is because when he reveals himself to Odysseus/us he approaches him/us in a casual/friendly manner. Hermes shows us that despite being mischievous, he genuinely wants to lend Odysseus a hand. We learn that he's very intelligent & observant by the way he offers his help to Odysseus. Letting him know that Odysseus way of speaking to get people on his side is brilliant but it can only take him so far/using just his words won't be enough to take on a foe like Circe who also seems to use her words to puppeteer her victims in the direction she wants. Hermes also lets Odysseus know all the conditions of taking "Holy Moly". That the power boost Hermes is giving Odysseus is only temporary, that he needs to use his imagination/be creative for the power to work and that even if he does accept his help, there's no guarantee that he won't die.
38:42 Yes it is! And is not shown in the animatic but, canonicaly, Odysseus made the cyclops do the same thing as Polyphemus. Loss at first, then summoned a club for a surprise act that made him win (Although Polyphemus did end up loosing, but because of the lotus on the wine, because once he got his club he started murdering everyone)
I was so interested how you read everything in "there are other ways". ESPECIALLY the point when he rejects Circe. Because I agree, something feels slightly off. And the way I read it, so far I've not seen anyone come to the same conclusion.
While I truly believe that everything Ody said was genuine (after all, that is his one redeeming quality: this man loves his wife to a fault!), I always felt that Jorges performance is somewhat performative. Like, Ody is laying it on thick here! I could totally see him doing the back of the hand against the forhead victorian lady fake faint when he sings "Oh, twelve long years" - it's just soooo dramatic! And I personally feel that's on purpose. I might be alone in my reading, but that's how I read that part 🤷🏽♀️
No hate, but im genuinely curious why you seem to desperately want to paint Odysseus having selfish motives for every action. "He wants to be more than Just a man" to "He says he's just a man to justify his actions" while everything we see in the musical up to this point shows that he really sees himself as JUST A MAN.
He doesn't think he's a god, he doesn't want to control everyone, he wants to go home.
This comment was originally way longer with more Examples, but got out of hand, but I just fail to see ANY implication of this side you want to see in him.
You even say him telling his childhood friend he'd save him if he got caught was manipulation, while we know he just lost his other childhood friend which broke him. We know he cares deeply for his crew and especially Eurylochus. So why are you turning him saying "I would save you, wouldn't you save your friends as well?" Into a manipulative move. I could see that argument if he manipulated Eurylochus to fight alongside him against Circe or something but he just asked them to wait so he could free the Men.
One more extremely prominent thing in your analysis is your repeated use of "Odysseus wants to be in control", which also cant see. He takes on ALL of the responsiblities of being a captain without expecting anything but trust from his people. Never is it implied he longs for control and its also very out of character for him to maliciously try to manipulate people to keep said control. While he is a nuanced Character that works with his wits you are definitely painting him in more of a narcissistic way when he shows time and time again he cares for his entire crew and even his enemies, not wanting any to die needlessly
He seems to just be a Man wanting to get home without losing his crew because they are just men as well, hence him being sad and defeated when he eventually loses some. Idk your analysis just seems really biased by this viewpoint you built up in the last reaction.
In some ways I understand where he is coming from, like as the Captain Odysseus inherently has to be in control.
And in songs like Luck runs out he really is very controlling.
But I also agree that he is kind of talking himself into that interpretation too much.
I especially dislike how he discredits Odysseus´ love for his family and making that into just yet another "desire for power/control"
I appreciate your critique and agree that I may have over-interpreted some specific moments. This is all off-the-cuff as I am seeing the story for the first time, so my thoughts aren't super evolved when you hear them. However, I respectfully disagree in some ways.
The musical consistently shows Odysseus's psychological complexity. Yes, he genuinely cares for his crew and sees himself as "just a man," but we also see him:
- Repeatedly using "getting home" to justify increasingly dark actions
- Developing problematic coping mechanisms around control as he deals with trauma
- Showing patterns of self-deception and rationalization
- Struggling with the gap between his stated motivations and his actions
His need for control isn't about malicious manipulation - it's about a traumatized person trying to maintain order in a situation that keeps taking choices away from him. We see this particularly in:
- His response to losing Polites
- His interaction with Athena
- How he handles the Circe situation
What makes Odysseus such a compelling character to me is that these aspects don't negate his genuine care for others - they exist alongside it. He can authentically love his family and crew while still being driven by complex, sometimes problematic motivations. That's not painting him as narcissistic; it's recognizing his full humanity.
I'm not trying to villainize Odysseus (though I see how it sounds like that with my off the cuff reactions) - I'm just trying to engage with the full picture of how he has been presented.
@@JacobPenrodWrites Thanks for the respectful and elaborate Answer.
I hope my message didn't come off as disrespectful, seeing how it had a negative tone, because it was not meant in a demeaning or hateful way.
I fully agree that he struggles with his motivations and actions and especially with Trying to justify his dark actions with needing to go home.
I just personally cant really read the need for control to the same degree you do, as I consider the Athena situation for example to genuinely be mostly Athenas miscommunicating in an arrogant and dismissive tone and Ody, being an emotional wreck at the time, not responding well to her tone. So him meeting Aeolus for example, which if I remember correctly, you interpreted as him trying to replace Athena, I see more disconnected from Athena and him becoming desperate and clutching every chance he has at getting home faster, even if that regards scaling a floating Island despite the risks.
As well with Polites death, i can see he's not doing well and is very distraught but I just don't read his actions following the death as trying to maintain control, but in that regard its agree to disagree, that's the good part about interpretations and Analyses, two people can have entirely different Interpretations.
My main issue was that it sounded like you were trying to villainize Ody, but now knowing that's just a communication error/ due to the format I can look at it again in a different light. And as you said, while you maybe overanalyzed some Parts I very well could have also under analyzed some parts.
So again, thanks for the Answer, Im very excited to see your reactions to the later sagas( despite my criticism of this one issue) I really enjoy your epic reactions because they go into so much detail.
I love how all these trials ody faces are turned into aspects of him and his inner battles, whose reasoning for their actions is as sound as his. A wonderful push pull between man and monster
19:40 humanised reflections, so very much this!
i love that you update every day omg!!!!! you're spoiling us
Have you seen the Hamilton musical?
I love the way you deep dive into the characters motivations and I haven't seen anyone do that in that extent for Hamilton.
There are animatics on RUclips and a live recording on Disey +.
Thank you so much for spoiling us with your daily uploads! It has become something that I look forward to every day. 😊
I listened to Hamilton when it came out but I havent revisited it since! If people are interested I would love to check it out as well!