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I think a part of the disconnect comes from Jorge drawing from anime/longform writing conventions rather than novels.

This is one place where I think perhaps the reaction format (of frequent pauses to share your thoughts) got in your way a bit. Don't get me wrong, I am LOVING your literary insights, and those pauses and discussions are what I'm here for. But if you were watching this in a theatre, you would have had to hold those frustrated questions in your head while the music went on, you would have had to pay more attention to the new lyrics coming your way, instead of stewing over/expounding on the opinion you formed in those first 30 seconds, and you might have felt the impact a little differently. Or perhaps not. :) I really would be curious to see your reflections on theme and structure at the end of the musical, perhaps after you've had a chance to listen to it uninterrupted from beginning to end a few (dozen) times. But I'm not blindly lashing out at you for daring to like this saga less; I respect you and I'm not at all trying to argue you out of your opinion. I just had a different experience, myself, and I'd like to share it. We didn't have Telemachus as a POV character before this, because we *were* so tightly tied to Odysseus POV, and Ody didn't know anything about his son -- he couldn't even imagine the boy's face during his dream in "Keep Your Friends Close". But we needed to get to know Telemachus and the situation with the restless suitors in Ithaca, to add urgency to our desire to see Ody get home for the finale. And I think Jorge using our own desperation to find out what happened to him after "Thunderbringer", and aligning it with both Telemachus' and Athena's desire to know the same -- holding that suspense and then hitting us with that jackhammer of a traumatic recap (from "I am the infamous" through to "i know....") -- that was writing that hit me really hard, emotionally. It re-immersed me, put my emotions right back at the end of Thunderbringer, reminded me of everything Ody's been through, setting up his despair on the ledge really well. I don't feel the story of his static seven years could have been made truly interesting through multiple songs -- story wise, it was the beginning and end of his time with Calypso that mattered. And this was the WISDOM saga -- it was primarily about Athena, and her opposite mirror moment to Odysseus in "Monster": regret and guilt moving her from Ruthlessness to Empathy. "Legendary" introduced Telemachus, but in the context of the full saga, was just setup for Athena to re-enter Ody's story, give her the impetus to stop passively regretting, actively find out where he was, and take action to intervene. (Also keep in mind it took godly intervention to release him from Calypso in the original Odyssey, and that's not a story element Jorge could alter as lightly as whether or not Ody slept with Circe. At least, I can't think of any easy plot to replace Athena's intervention with Zeus, so I felt we really needed enough context to understand her motivation to risk so much for Odysseus, when we'd only seen ruthless logic from her before.) Anyway, two cents to take or leave. Can't wait to see more!

I’ve been ruminating on this. You say Epic is a trauma story, and I can see why you’d say that, but I’m going to disagree. Epic is a love story. It starts if in Troy where the men are trying to retrieve the love of a comrade (Helen), and then the rest of the story is comparing different types of love and which love Odysseus values the most. His love of his men is greater than strangers, but his love of family trumps that of his men. Cersei’s love of her nymphs trumps trusting strangers to do good, Poseidon’s love of his son and his pride makes him destroy Odysseus’s fleet, Zeus’s self love makes him put the onus on everyone else, the and other instances of love in the upcoming acts, especially Ithaca.

Fun fact: that storm absolutely would have been their final fight if it wasn’t for a certain treasonous f*ck-weasel

Im gonna be editing this post as i watch through the video so these are by notes and rebuttals 1 - I paused at the 5 minutes mark. I have some things so say about the 3 act structure in terms of this saga. I personally think this saga is the start of the 3rd act(though i know that would push it more forward then usually placed, this is a musical we can get away with that) the first act is from the start till the end if the ocean aga, the second taking them theough to the end of the thunder saga, and this is the final act, the climax of the story. I think the jump in time and location is really to put forward first what had been happening on Ithica while Ody was away and second that Ody has been now with the guilt of his men dying for 7 years. 1.5 - I unpaused just for you to say something I felt was really the core theme of this saga. Where the flip is Ody. I feel this saga is about Athena's POV(and maybe Telemachus a little) that is why it is named the Wisdom saga. The question of where is Ody is key to this saga. 2 - I paused right at 18:30 because I have 2 things, one Anntinitos(if I spell his name wrong sorry) is the villain who is the most human(in the fact that he is literally just a mortal dude, he doesn't even have any godly ancestors like Ody and Telemachus have) but he is the villain who I feel has the least amount of Humanity in them. He was fully prepared to kill the prince of Ithaca in a fist fight there before Athena interrupted, which brings me into point 2 Athena. It has been ten years since she left Ody. She has been stewing with all those feelings this entire time, and I personally think she went to Ithaca to see Ody, she expected him to be there and instead she found her little wolf. 3 - I paused at the end of the 3rd song. This is Athena's grief song to me. This is the song that says she regrets how she treated Ody, and that maybe he was right. This is her attempt(at least her first one) to make up for the way she messed things up in the past.

I get why your annoyed as you're viewing it more in a novel storytelling way, but as others have pointed out it's normal for the the jump in characters. The first three supposed to be pretty close, if not directly after, "My Goodbye", so for a lot of people, Athena's jump in personality didn't feel that big because even though she didn't say it, Athena was hurt by Ody's words. The feeling of "Where's Odysseus?" is what the characters are feeling. Antinuos (An - Tin - You - Us) is Supposed to be one dimensional as it's a sort of counter to the non human villains having more depth and humanizing traits than the main human villain.

I think this is confusing to you because you are not at all familiar with the original story. Tememachus is so important to the story. And as you mentioned it was the creator's intention for us to wonder about Odysseus just like Tememachus and Penelope. Also I think you stick too much to this "a story structure works in this way" type of thinking. Athena is different. She looks at tememachus more as a friend rather than a champion. I mean, the champion thing did not work, so it only makes sense to try a different approach. Too much time on Calypso's island would have been so boring both in music and in writing. Furthermore, if the saga started with this song it would have much less impact. Thank you for your reaction. It's always interesting to hear a different perspective.

As THE resident Odyssey nerd i must comment on this because it is BY FAR one of my favorite sagas. This setup is actually the beginning parts of the Odyssey, Telemachus being inspired by Athena and venturing out with her guidance is the start, then we pick back up with Odysseus with Calypso. This out of order story telling was present in the original story, and i fell as if Jorge wanted to keep that up. One of my biggest criticisms of the show, though, is that LEGENDARY should have been the Act 2 opener, as the shift in perspective wouldn't be as jarring. The pacing is definitely off in this one, but the character development of athena is chef kiss, and it pays off well in the end, i think. Also Im in love with Telemachus's voice so i definitely have a bias lol. NOTE: I dont know how to emphasize ENOUGH that almost all your criticisms were VERY intentional choices by Jorge and lord it just EATS AT THE END. Telemachus is so important to the Odyssey as a whole and he NEEDED to be here for the final saga to have any real emotional draw. You may think the writing is weak here, but in my opinion it is so strong is you dive a bit further a bit more than just what is told to you, which i feel you fell a victim too

So many "uhm, acshually"-es about the start of the second act in musicals, when Legendary isn't the start of second act, Suffering is 😂 Oh well, at least it's engagement?

One thing i like that is consistent(or at least as far as i can tell) when Scylla attacks Ody never moves. He knows he was safe just standing still. The people with the torches would die and as long as he didnt draw attention to himself he was fine.

The hundredth date, like you said, you should already be in love. And thats the referrence, take her out like its the hundredth time in your relationship, already helplessly in love, probably married. Also Ink is Ody for real for real, they react on the same queues Also Ink, you're married yourself. I know you keep making this about power and control, and yes it is an underlying aspect. But could it be, could it potentially be - that he actually loves his wife and kid?

Mutiny (reading title) ohh mutiny (prophecy) AHHH MUTINY (shit they're gonna do a mutiny) love it - absolutely was my first reaction

Ok so…this is my take, because I’ve been agreeing with almost everything you’ve said in the other sagas. One thing that happened early on that I think ended up snowballing into something big for this saga was Athena’s reaction to their “brake up”, that happened because the version of “My goodbye” that you listened to is an older version where you can’t really hear the hurt in Athena’s voice, because she did end up hurt. She knows she rubbed salt in his wounds when she mentioned his “dead friends” but she didn’t care at the time. I also believe she believes what Ody said is true, the whole “At least I know what I’m fighting for while you’re fighting to be known. Since you claim to be so much wiser, why’s your life spent all alone? You’re alone!”. She knows it’s true, she is alone (she is a virgin goddess) and even more so now that she is fighting with her only companion (later she relishes he WAS her friend). And her calling him “Just a man” was ment to really insult him and she was trying to make him feel inferior the way he’d just done to her. And that’s been eating at her, she can’t sleep she feels guilty and I think she might have been checking from time to time if Ody has made it back yet. And in one of those visits she sees Telemachus (Legendary), and he is being bullied so she just helps him (little wolf) and for the first time in 10 years she finally felt happy and it’s this boy that reminds her so much of Ody, and he encourages her to try and lend Ody a hand in we’d be fine(obviously not knowing that in doing that he ups his own chances of getting what he wants, to reunite with his dad). So she does lend Ody a hand in god games and… I won’t say more because spoilers! Now to the whole whiplash thing that’s because I believe we’re supposed to be anxious to see what is happening with Ody not to mention it’s in line with the Odyssey, the story starts with Telemachus and everything we get to know about Ody is through flashbacks, so if you tell the story linearly this is how it goes. So yeah these are my thoughts on what I believe happened and why it felt to jarring to see Athena suddenly, and not seeing how she changed, that’s because you kinds missed it in “My goodbye” and as I said, in that older version of the song you can’t see how much Ody hurt her and really made her realize how inconsiderate she was being to him when mentioning his dead friends like nothing. Also ties in on how much she pushed Telemachus while fighting Antinous, she is used to not consider her warrior, Ody is really powerful and was mentored by her much longer, that’s why he could keep up, but Telemachus doesn’t even know how to fight so he can’t keep up. This time however she knows to be considerate and admits she pushed too hard, coming full circle and this time calling Telemachus and Ody her friends and sacrificing herself for them I’m god games. Also Telemachus impacts Athena the same way Polities impacts Ody in “Open arms” Sorry if it comes of as rude 😅 I mean no disrespect, just kinda showing my pov. Edit: wording

I think the story with the sirens and Odysseus is so well known around the world and used in so many ways that it would be tiring to spend more than one song on it. Loved your perspective, though. I don't think what he did to the sirens was that terrible (especially compared to scylla). I mean, the sirens have never spared anyone and prey on starved and tired sailors. I wobder if Eurylichus confession played a role in his decision with scylla. I wonder if deep down it's revenge on his men for those 9 days. At the time, Ithaca was visible from the ship. I feel like it's something that would be difficult to forgive. Also I feel like even if Odysseus had said "I'm sorry" to Poseidon, it wouldn't have changed anything.

The big thing about Polyphemus is that although he is older than any of the men present in his cave, he's really just a child. This is why he believed Ody so quickly and why he just willingly and excitedly drank the wine. Ody doesn't kill him because he's already grapling with the guilt of killing one child and doesn't have it in him to kill another. Him revealing his name was very dumb thought. He only did it in retaliation of Athena's criticism, but still a dumb choice.

Welcome to the Zeus Hater Train. By now you probably hate him even more since you've seen Wisdom! As for Eurylochus committing self-extinction by god, that's actually in the Odyssey itself! He goes, essentially, "either we survive this, in which case we'll construct a temple of thanks to the sun god, or we die. Death by smiting is better than death by starvation."

"Captain?" "You all stabbed me ONE SONG AGO!" "But we'll die..." "GOOD!"

36:15 jorge's mother voices anticlea (odysseus' mom) and jorge's dad voices hephaestus!

Antinuos is interesting because he's the only Human antagonist and the only villain without Humanity or depth :D It's symbolic!<3

I also had a really hard time liking the wisdom saga. I enjoy each of the songs as individual pieces and I really like Telemacus as a character but as a whole I have very similar thoughts about it as what you talked about. Athena’s characterization in the saga is strange for me cause we never saw any of her character progression and I’ve had a really hard time with that.

As others said, here is the first time I disagree with some of your points BUT what I really appreciate about you, is the way you communicate your dislikes. You never "trashtalk" the story or songs in itself, you always say things like "this doesn't work FOR ME" or "I don't like that PERSONALLY" and such things and explain where you came from... and therefore I am still pleased to hear you out, hope you can enjoy the rest more back with Ody. ^-^

One, the inclusion of Ody's mom becomes apparent (at least to me) in Ithaca. Just keep her part in mind when you get there. Also, she did appear in the real Odyssey, and Jorge definitely saw a moment to include his own mother in his passion project. Its so cute ❤

One thing to keep in mind though is that this is an adaptation, so there is a source material. At the same time too, we get to see telemachus and penelope, the reason Odysseus is fighting so hard to get back to.

just my thoughts - i still love your analysis and the perspective you have to give - but something i think you should keep in mind is that this is not an original story, it's an adaptation from an ancient piece of greek literature. i think jorge is an absolute genius in the way he takes the story and twists something new out of it, and certainly no one should feel limited by their source material, but ultimately, this is a story that was constructed thousands of years ago. the original odyssey - i've read it in full - is completely nonlinear and the characterization and style is completely different from modern media. naturally, this adaptation is going to break conventions and be experimental. i would actually argue that conformity would have meant failure in this case. and that doesn't mean you cant critique it!! i think your critique is generally pretty insightful and well-articulated. but in this case, i think it's best to just take it as it is and let it take you on its journey. feeling confused and frustrated and like odysseus was ripped away from you is a compliment to the writing. it puts you in the same place as telemachus, and makes you more desperate for them to find each other, just as they've grown more desperate over the years. i understand the desire for some emotional resolution after last saga, but that would have weakened that sense of urgency. telemachus' story is absolutely essential, and i don't think it could have been positioned anywhere else in the soundtrack, or odysseus's lamenting for home would have taken on a different taste. we also come back to him at the perfect time. i appreciate your commentary, but those are just a few things to consider as you're thinking through your feelings on this saga!

This is also my least favorite saga of Epic for the same reasons you said, however I LOVE God Games so much, all thanks to Neal tbh, it was good to me before her animatic, but once I saw her video I became obsessed with it. I love her Zeus and Luke's voice. So! Why is Zeus angry? Zeus does not like losing, of all the gods he possesses the most hubris. He set the game thinking Athena would lose, and that feels like shame to him.

This Saga is like Book 1 of HoO series lmao. Always the "Where's MC?!" Reaction. XD You can't expand on the Calypso Storyline though, Odysseus was stuck there for 7 years. That's why Telemachus and Athena was Introduced. It's called the Wisdom Saga because it's Athena's pov. Not Odysseus. Even the Calypso part was Athena watching Odysseus. ^^;

I can agree with you on a couple points in Legendary, specifically with how the timeskip is placed. I tend to look at it with the lens of a stage musical because that's what I'm most familiar with, and typically the best place to do a long timeskip would be right after intermission, which in this case is between underworld saga and thunder saga. I think that does work as an intermission point but if you were adapting this for the stage, I feel like it would not be clear enough that you are having a timeskip or the length of it, so I've been really interested in how you would actually convey that without the use of title cards or anything of the sort. Honestly in my brain I keep thinking of thunder saga as the end of act one and this saga as the beginning of act 2, just because they don't connect super smoothly in my opinion. A lot of other people have already said just why the saga is written the way it is and why it may feel strange in that regard so I'm not gonna rehash it, just wanted to give my opinion from a musical theater standpoint. I honestly just enjoy the music and the story a lot, and I understand this is a concept album which could always be edited, so it's understandable some things may not come together perfectly.

yeeeeeaaa booooii not as many hearts on comment when you are getting critique das right ignore em fat man........I am also fat asf so dont even fat man

The reason zeus is fighting her is because of how she convinced hera, by mentioning odysseus’s faithfulness when everyone knows that zeus is not in regards to his marriage to hera. This is where his line “to make me feel shame?” Comes in

I would definitely agree that the wisdom saga is the weakest narratively in terms of pacing and effect. All the songs and such are sooo awesome and wonderful but I get it!!

Jorge someone's out for your woman!! (Jorge and Tayla (Circe's voice) are dating and ADORABLE)

I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the point of the Wisdom saga. Odysseus is basically in narrative limbo for the seven years between Thunder Bringer and the Vengeance saga. All his POV would show is Love in Paradise on a loop or extended, and given the original version explicitly involved Ody's suicidal ideation being spurred on by being repeatedly raped by Calypso, I don't think Jorge wanted to focus on what exactly was happening on Ogyia than necessary. (If I recall, in the EPIC version, Calypso explicitly didn't SA him, and there was even a cut verse where he was going to escape to try and kill himself by pretending to come around and distracting Calypso by telling herself to go get ready to "have some fun".) The explicit SA is only in this particular animatic. On that note, there may be additional "Canon" issues in regards to some of the animatics you chose, as some of them are not the "officially commissioned" ones Jorge had his fingers in on tweaking little things. For example, from what I heard from Gwendy, who did a few of the official animatics, some of the art of Odysseus in the final two sagas was made to be changed because there were concerns people would think Ares was empowering Odysseus somehow, which was not the intent. In the original work, Telemachus is effectively the protagonist who learns about the events that happened to his father on his own heroes journey to try and bring him home. However, as this story is focused on Odysseus' journey, not Tele's quest to find his father, the order has been changed up until this point. This is where the board is set into place for the Act II climax, as musicals are split into two "acts" for the purposes of an intermission, setting up different props, and giving the actors a few minutes to rest. The wisdom saga therefore serves to Allow Calyso's island while setting up the stakes we'll eventually see in the Ithaca saga. We need to see how bad things have gotten in Ithaca so the urgency of Odysseus taking every risk to get home a little bit faster is understood by the audience, as well as giving a proper face to the previously only spoken about home Ody so desperately wants to return to. Legendary is a song that really needs to be listened to in it's entirety before trying to analyze to understand. It isn't that Telemachus just idolizes his dad, it's that he understands that his father was a great warrior who got to the point he was by overcoming monsters. Thus, he sings about his willingness to fight monsters so he can be strong enough to protect his mother from the suitors, who in later arcs, will be VERY explicit about their intentions regarding Penelope and Telemachus. Telemachus is a bright young man, and the point of the song is that he is VERY aware of two facts. 1. The Suitors aren't above raping his mother and murdering him 2. He is incapable of protecting his mother from them if they decide to do so. This is conveyed in the lyric "Open up her doors so we can have fun with her". Telemachus isn't just a lovestruck berserker like Odysseus eventually becomes. He's been kicked around and abused by the suitors his entire life, unable to be trained in stately duties out of fear the suitors would view him as a threat, and has literally heard them brazenly talking and plotting to rape his mother, torture him to death, and destroy his father's legacy completely. He is the clay that will eventually become the actual warrior of the mind Athena promised to make Odysseus, not one who is cold-hearted and merciless, but one who is compassionate and committed to building a "greater tomorrow", but with the strength to back it up. Little Wolf serves to reintroduce fan-favorite, Athena to the fray, and show that, despite her telling Ody she was done with him, she can't help herself but to step in to protect Ody's son. Telemachus, in a way, represents what Odysseus was before the war, only without Athena's guidance. He is clever and kind, but lacks the strength to back it up. He thus allows the audience to understand how much Athena's changed via how differently she treats him compared to how she treated Odysseus. "We'll be fine" allows us to really see just how much Athena has changed, and how she's become different than the other Olympians. We don't get to see as much of her earlier, as the story had a few major rewrites and reworkings that cut the songs that showed how close she and Odysseus really were, despite her denial of it in "My goodbye". Ex: One of the cut songs "I need her to be mine" reveals that Odysseus got Athena to be his wingman for woo-ing Penelope. The animatic of "We'll be fine" goes even further to show this emotional maturity Athena has begun to learn, no longer rejecting the high five, as she did with Odysseus. Athena canonically has a really tragic backstory that lends itself to this character arc. Athena is technically the child of Zeus alone, bursting out of his skull fully grown, but is, in fact, the child of Mephis, Zeus' first wife. A prophet foretold that Zeus, just like his father, would be overthrown by his son, the child of Mephis. Thus, he pulled a Kronos and swallowed his wife whole to kill her. The child was, in fact, Athena, who eventually escaped. Later in the narrative, Athena forms a friendship with and is mentored by Poesidon's granddaughter, Pallas, whom Zeus manipulates her into accidentally killing during a sparring match, hence why some greeks referred to her as "Pallas Athena", a title she claimed out of guilt. This is reflected in a lot of EPIC fan works as the reasoning behind her hesitancy to get close to anyone, especially Odysseus, her mentee whom immediately declares himself her friend. Thus, she is hesitant to let him in, and unfortunately, for time, the songs in which we see her slowly opening up to Odysseus before their falling out are cut (I need her to be mine) with only the hurt tone in her voice when she sings "someday you'll understand" in "My goodbye". She basically spent the next ten years on her couch, as alone as Odysseus called her out on being, eating ice cream and thinking about her platonic breakup, staring at her phone hoping her only friend will call. She's unaware that he never got home and finally takes the steps to reach out to him, only to find his house overrun by squatters, her best friend's wife, whom she helped set him up with, depressed and hiding from said squatters, and her best friend's son 5 seconds from getting murdered by the squatters because he's the only thing between them and forcing themselves upon said best friend's wife. She probably hyped herself up for days practicing what she'd say to Odysseus, only to find him MIA and his family hanging on by a thread. Then she sees the spitting image of her best friend, except with the personality of a cross between an excitable puppy and said best friend before he became jaded getting beaten to a pulp. Love in Paradise, I suspect, was at one point meant to be the opening song for Act II, as it's reprisal of the prior songs is somewhat common in a lot of works, sort of a "previously on Dragonball Z" type of refresher. It also shows us exactly what Odysseus has been doing this whole time, pretty much nothing but trying not to get SA'd by a Sociopathic titan who gaslights even more than he does. God games is the one where some of the major visual storytelling notes and easter eggs are missed because you went for this animatic instead of the official one. This one is objectively more fully animated, but misses out on a few significant notes within it, such as the fact Hephaestus looks exactly like, and has a raving fanbase in the audience of the arena the competition occurs in because the VA was Jorge's father, or that Hera challenges Athena to a dance fight, which is hilarious in how bad Athena is at dancing.On that note, in the official animatic, Athena never fights back against Zeus, and instead we are subjected to her repeatedly getting blasted and beaten to the ground in Zeus, her stumbling up to ask for Ody's release again, and getting pummeled even more, until she begs one more time for his release and collapses, apparently dead, with her open eyes becoming glassy and all the light from her armor and jewelry flickering out and fading like a toy who's batteries have died.

Ok I have to say I totally understand the pull to Ithaca is jarring, but to put it at the 20% mark, that was 10years ago these events weren't happening, and when you get back to Ithaca later you wouldn't give a crap about what the characters are doing. I do agree about expanding calypsos song, I need more calypso! Also: Jorge's mom and Dad voice odysseus' Mom and Hephaestus

I've really enjoyed watching these videos! You've brought up such interesting points and analysis that I haven't heard from any other reactor. I appreciate your honesty and criticism, thanks for making these videos!

I like that you say you felt like you lost all the momentum there was in thunder bringer because that really reflects the story. Yeah, Odysseus was on his way, made all of those sacrifices, all those terrible choices, just to be able to go home!.... and then he gets stick in an island for seven years. It fucking sucks for him. He lost all his momentum and it led him to that terrible dark place we saw on love in paradise. And a thing you cannot forget is that this is not a original story. This is an adaptation of one of the oldest long written epic poems we have acess to. He reestructured things a bit to be able to follow odysseus chronologically this whole time, and know he is finally showing this part that was shown a lot earlier in the original. And he uses Athena, a character we already know to tie it off, thats why its the wisdom saga

I want to explain something very important. The source material also known as the Odyssey was not written in chronological order, which means it is very hard to follow in many places which means you skip around the book now Kalika needs to be 20 but there’s no real other place Jay can put this also remember this is a concept album.

actually odysseus NEVER cheats, that was his roman version Ulysses his love for Penelope is so deep that he is willing to become a monster when is necessary, he never wanted to go to war, he always wanted to come back to them he made their wedding bed from the tree where they first meet, he build his palace AROUND IT odysseus story was always about love and what a person would to for that same love

I also feel like it should be added: imagine sitting in a theater and coming off the underworld and then the thunder saga, which would you prefer to hear: a momentary breather and a look into what Ody has been fighting for for 25 songs or 4 songs about emotional manipulation and suicidial ideation. I know which one would keep me in mh seat

There are three or four reasons why you trust Hermes where you were immediately sceptical with the other gods: First, Odysseus trusts him, smiling as soon as he recognizes Hermes. All faults and failings aside, Odysseus is a very canny person, so that puts you in a slightly more trusting mode. Second Hermes is helpful and his help comes without any conditions. Zeus effectively gave an order ("Do this, or else"), Athena wanted something in return, Aeolus made it a game, and Posiedon made it seem like there was a chance for success to dig the trident in deeper and make it hurt. Hermes doesn't do any of that, just "You need help, here is help, have fun, you might die". Third, Hermes is cast in a more whymsical and happy tone throughout his song, contrasting against the darker and more actively combative songs preceding it. I mean, "Wouldn't You Like" comes immediately after "Ruthlessness" and "Puppeteer". The upbeat, bouncy and happy sound is more of a "it'll be ok, this is safe" sound. Compared to Aeolus' "Keep Your Friends Close" which seems upbeat on the surface but has darker undertones ("Sometimes killing is a must!"), Hermes' never hides what it's about. There is danger, this can help you, it won't last long. And then finally as a maybe fourth reason, Hermes recognizes Odysseus and isn't hostile or commanding towards him. Not overly formal or superior sounding. Hermes greets him as a friend.

I'd like to say that I understand your criticisms. However I think Jorge really tried and did the best he could with all he needed to accomplish with this. He needs to show Athena's change so it makes sense for her to help him get off the island which is integral to the plot for it to move forward, make us feel for Telemachus and see the issues in Ithaca before so we aren't blindsided later, still update us on Ody but not so much or so long we get bored because just seeing him stuck there traumatized for 7 years would get a bit much and a bit boring after a while making the show lull which is a major no no in musicals which have notoriously fast pacing compared to other mediums, do it all as quickly/effectively as possible, and do it in a way that makes sense linearly for a linear show based off a non-linear source. A lot was going on. that’s not to say there aren’t still some criticisms. I just don’t think this saga is as weak as so many make it seem. It could definitely be touched on again and slight adjustments made if needed before an official production if needed though for sure. Also as far as showing Athena‘s change of heart on screen, that would probably be more for a movie adaptation. as cool as it would be within the time constraints of musical theater, unfortunately not everything can be seen all the time and be super fully developed. Sometimes you just have to prioritize. With a movie there’s more flexibility for that though, sort of like Wicked was able to do.

I'm really going to have to push back on your take of the Wisdom Saga. The seven year time skip is necessary to help story progression as the only things of consequence that happened between "Thunder Bringer" and "Legendary" are Odysseus being trapped on Calypso's Island ("Love In Paradise" gives us that detail) and the arrival of the suitors to the palace (all we need to know is that they're there and they're horrible and "Legendary" gives us that detail). The Telemachus and Athena plot point is important to help set up the Ithaca Saga (the final saga) as it is a way for us to get to know Telemachus as well as set up the stakes and give us a sense of urgency as the suitors are not going to wait much longer for Penelope to choose a new husband. Antinous shows us how dangerous the suitors can be and so if he comes across as one-dimensional it is most likely intentional. The audience is meant to hate Antinous, we don't need to understand him, especially in the song "Hold Them Down". Jorge's choices in the beginning of the Wisdom Saga actually help to lay the foundations for the katharsis we get in the Ithaca Saga: we develop some emotional tie to Telemachus and we despise Antinous and the other suitors (who we hear echo Antinous). The audience doesn't need to have its hands held when it comes to character motivation, the audience can put the pieces together. All the audience needs to know is that Odysseus's words at the end of "My Goodbye" had an impact on Athena and even in the song you can hear a hint of hurt in Athena's voice at the end with how soft her voice becomes when she says "One day you'll know what I'm saying". Having a saga focused on Athena's character development would distract from the main story while the Wisdom Saga as a whole is vital to lay the foundations for the last two sagas. An entire saga focused on Calypso is unnecessary for the same reason. All you need to know is that Odysseus was imprisoned against his will and he's been stuck with Calypso for 7 years. What Jorge did in "Love In Paradise" gave us enough to know what Odysseus is going through. We don't need anything more than that.

i know the epic reaction series is taking a lot out of you rn, but whenever you finish i’m looking forward to a part 2 of this! it was hard to find video game creepypastas that valued a good slow burn back in the say (or maybe i just wasn’t looking in the right places?)

It's clear this guy hasn't read the Odyssey cause if he did this would make a lot of sense. This is the set up for Ithaca and explaining whats happened there, cause else we'd go in blind and not understand why Odysseus needs to return. (If you showed this at the start of the musical then people wouldn't feel as strongly about the characters of both telemachas and Odysseus as we'd start with telemachas but then move to Odysseus and not see telemachas till Ithaca again). It would undermine the entire story, the problem is you are reading this like a book while it's a musical, so more like a play.

A few things, I understand that this entire musical is based off of a book, however it was also a book written before the modern writing rules. 1. I think that the sudden and dramatic shift from the intense “Thunder Bringer” to the childish and hopeful “Legendary” is actually a good thing. It leaves the listener confused as to what happened to Odysseus and why we’re following this previously unseen perspective, similar to how Telemachus has felt his entire life. 2. Antinous being a one-dimensional bad guy and being the only human antagonist works well due to all the humanizing of monsters in the past Sagas. Now, we’re ‘monsterizing’ a human, as will later be explored in “Hold them Down”.

Love that you picked up the parallel of “little wolf” right away!

40:03 I think they wanted more conflict but ody hasn’t sleep in 9 days so it took him time to wake

Hey, brother, just another comment passing by! I understand where some of your judgment is coming from, and I even came agreeing with some of your points! even though I do kinda like some of the decisions that were made in regards to character writing, maybe I'm just biased, I love this royal family so damn much. That being said though, please, please I beg you, don't abandon the musical, and please do not stop sharing your honest opinions about everything, your genuine reactions are the exact reason I look up so much to your videos everyday. I feel that, sadly, If you let people's not so nice comments get the better of you (not the ones which have disagreed with you respectfully, from I can tell are the bast majority, just the condescending ones) you might feel forced to like the rest of the saga, which is absolutely not what we should be looking for. Of course I would like you to love it as much as I do, but please, keep reacting as sincerely as you can. And please upload very soon!

I feel the need to clarify that this animatic for Love in Paradise, while visually impressive, definitely makes the whole Calypso thing WAY worse. In the original source material it is true that Ody was intimate with her. And the whole power dynamic is bad too obviously. But within EPIC Calypso is meant to NOT force herself on him. Yes she is still very pushy, and she still clings to the idea of him as her love, because he is the only person on that island with her. But nothing happened between them on a physical level.

The problem is you watched Neal’s animatic for Thunder Bringer. It’s a good animatic but it’s inaccurate and doesn’t properly set up the next Saga, as officially Zeus smites the entire ship, with Odysseus falling in the water as the screen fades to black. The point is that Odysseus fate was unknown, and that Telemachus and Athena wanted answers as to what happened to him. Also, the story of the Odyssey isn’t just the Odysseus show, it’s about Penelope and Telemachus too, how they cope with the absence of Odysseus and what they do to face it