That animatic was one of the first EPIC animatics I watched and it is one of my favourite animatics to date. Probably one of the reasons Monster is one of my favourite songs honestly! Love your work gigi!
And when she was singing it, it hit her that Jorgé would outlive her and she was crying while singing this. Coming to terms that one day she will be gone and not see everything he has done. Fun fact his dad has a future role as well as his sister.
I've watched dozens of Epic reactors and you are the FIRST to immediately realize that the Underworld characters are saying their last thoughts before they died. It legit only took me a few minutes into your first reaction to know that you were immediately going to be one of my top 3 favorite reactors, your insight into the story is SO good.
Oh we all love Gigi in this fandom, Gigi is our fandom treasure. And to make you appreciate her skills even more - she's only 19, and she's pumping out these works
@@JacobPenrodWrites go look for Don’t Lose Your Head Animatic that Gigi made when she was only 15-16. It’s unlisted on her channel but you can find it on the Playlist tab.
I actually love how Odys mom comes out of nowhere, you just sorta take your parents for granted, he hadnt even considered his mom would be gone before he got home. She never crossed his mind until he saw her
Yeah I can definitely see the appeal of how he did it. It feels intentional rather than sloppy. When I say it can be tightened, what I mean is that it is currently written in a way where the impact is largely depending on what the viewer is bringing INTO the story with their preconceived notions of motherly relationships rather than painting what what the relationship looks like for us. It is something that feels stylistic rather than amateur, but I do think there are ways it could have hit me even harder. I still think its an incredibly powerful moment.
@@JacobPenrodWritesdon’t forget too that this is the concept, he wants to write a whole script plus the music i believe. I am loving your analysis maybe you two can brainstorm how to make all the songs connect?
@@internetuser528as far as I read it is both written and sung he said Hamilton was in inspiration but not what he wants to do. But that might have changed I heard that back before the underworld saga came out so my info is dated. If I am wrong please correct me
Fun fact: Jorge has stated that "I see a world where I help you get home, but that's not a world I know" is actually a cheeky callback to the oryginal Odyssey (as well other Odyssey adaptations), where Tiresias is apparently way more straightforward and helpful. EPIC is set in a multiversum but only Tiresias knows about it lol
@JacobPenrodWrites jorge has gamer brain and said that so they can potentially make video games lol (there a game based on epic being made right now as well)
@@JacobPenrodWrites I mean, theres a version of the Odessey where Odysseus has a kid with Circe. In this one, he didn't even stay on her island for very long, also didn't sleep with her. Its less important than it implies, more of a offhand joke that doesn't distract from the song.
So epic as a whole is serving this idea a ruthlessness and the necessity of it to protect those you love its foil is the idea polities had of open arms
I've always looked at this way, the infant trauma leads him to over-lean into polites mindset, only to be knocked back into pragmatism via his death. He's bouncing between extremes, missing the middle ground except in a few small moments like with Circe.
For further context: funeral rites were deeply important in ancient Greece, the deceased had to be buried or burned on a pyre, and a coin had to be placed in the mouth of the deceased to pay for the passage on the river Styx. Failure to provide these rites condemned the deceased to remain stranded for 200 years on the banks of the Styx, unable to access the afterlife. All the men of Odysseus' crew who have died so far have not been able to receive the funeral rites, and thus find themselves trapped at the threshold of the Underworld. This is also the reason why Odysseus was so devastated by having to leave Polites and the other men in Polyphemus' cave, without being able to ensure him a worthy burial.
He called it last video (the exact words being "the middle point of the story is a moment of transformation, this is what I expect from the final song of act I")
I think it is both a trauma story and a love story, reason he keeps pushing through the trauma and through everything is because of his love for his wife and son, if he didn't have that love he would give up at some point, and just cut his losses, especially after the next saga.
@@leonglitch, no, the theme of ruthlessness is there to serve the theme of his love for his wife and son and his desire to return home with them, that's why the theme of ruthlessness is so important here, because he must become ruthless to return to his wife and son, that's the them of Epic, becoming ruthless to attain his true and absolute goal which is his return to his family that he loves, which he even state from the beginning and is said clearly in "Just a man" forshadowing this musical and what it is about, so the theme of ruthlessness is there to serve the theme and and main point, objective and desire of Odysseus to return to his family, it is a choice that he makes to be able to return to them, so the theme of the musical is actually Odysseus having to become ruthless to be able to return alive to his wife and son, which is his main objective and the most important thing to him, so yeah, ruthlessness is there to serve that purpose, not the other way around, this is mainly a love and family story in which the husband and father does everything that he has to do, no matter what, to return to the wife and son that he loves so dearly and who are the two most important people in his life, even becoming ruthless and stripping away who he used to be and tried and wanted to be, no matter how much it hurts, because it would hurt even more the absence of his wife and son or seeing them hurt in any way
@@leonglitchI think it's the other way around. The ruthlessness theme is a part of the trauma and tragedy of a well-intended man turning into a monster.
@leonglitch jorge himself added those themes to the story. I think a good story does have A theme, I wouldn't say Breaking Bad has A single theme, a good story should say many things
So at around the 19:30 mark as you were explaining Odys "WHO" It has actually been confirmed by Jay that the reason he sounds so frantic and upset is because he didn't realize the profit was talking about him so all he could hear was his wife was going to be around a dangerous murderer.
The reason its 558 men who died instead of 557 is because one of his men got drunk when Circe invited them in (thats why she turned them into pigs, because they got roudy while drunk, not just to eat them or whatever, in the original) and the youngest member of the crew climbed on top of the roof, and fell down and broke his neck, nobody found his body or noticed his body until they were in the underworld and he asked Ody to bury him he was a cut song because the song came out too funny "I DIED AND NOBODY NOTICED, I DIED AND NOBODY CARED"
Fun fact: Chorus at the end of No Longer You is important and filled with spoilers to act 2 because it's a prophecy. But when Underworld Saga came out no one knew what was those lyrics. Jorge deliberately refused to tell us what it was. And I will be evil and won't say what those lyrics are.
For those who don't mind spoilers or already watched/listened to the whole musical, I'll write it here in a reply, click Read more to see it Lyrics: Siren song Scylla Throat Mutiny Lightning Bolt Hurt Poseidon Kill all the suitors for love
Ya i tell people after suffering abandon all happiness ye who enter here because this musical will destroy you also if thunder saga destroyed you get in the back of the line for Jorge's therapy billing cause the rest of the musical hurts so much more Your on song 20 in this video we don't get to feel any joy again till song 39
I think from Odysseus's perspective, a monster isn't just someone who does cruel things, but someone who doesn't feel guilt for doing cruel things. He's basically saying "I've been holding back to try to not suffer the guilt of my actions, but that means I've been cruel to my men by not doing EVERYTHING I can to bring us(me) home."
TGE FACT YOU CALLED IT THAT THE DEADS WORDS IN THIS ARE THEIR LAST THOUGHRS BEFORE THEY DIED That is WILD. The Underworld Saga is my favorite saga for a reason. The Underworld, No Longer You and Monster are easily the best tracks to me.
The only thing he didn't catch which alot of people didn't is what the chorus is singing at the end most of us didn't even notice stuff was being said till the man flat out said there's something hidden in no longer you
@@JacobPenrodWritesI think I’ll be checking it out once I get through my physical TBR. The holidays as usual have left me with almost 10 new books so it might be a bit unfortunately…
I'm still being caught off guard (and amazed) by your media literacy, your analysis are so rich. I am mentally putting a pin on this video because I have a comment to make tying it to a later saga, so I'll get back to it when you're there
As a fellow writer it's so refreshing hearing it broken down like this, like I have these same thoughts but the way Inkwrites put it into perspective really helps my writing and helping me expound on how I want to write my characters
The thing with the mom is that this is when he learned she died. The last time he saw here she was at home and then he went off to war. Her last thoughts were: "Odysseus when youll come home ill be waiting" and Odysseus said:"I took too long" he was gone for to long and now his mom is desd and he found out because he sees her spirit in the underworld
Anticlea died when she saw the storm at the end of "keep your friends close" (they were very close to getting home). Meanwhile Argos (the dog, not the ship of the same name or the kingdom of the same name) died in Odysseus' arms
That's incredibily powerful. I still feel like it could have had even more impact with some more intentional setup throughout the musical, but it is still extremely resonant as-is
@@JacobPenrodWritesyou don’t really have that time in this musical sadly, maybe if there was more speaking parts by this musical doesn’t have any and it has a lot to fill out with the runtime
@@backpack_hermit25 Yeah it is such a tightly written musical that it is a delicate balancing act. I think that for what it is, it works. I also think that it laregely depends on an audience assumption that he has a meaningful connection to his mother rather than us being able to carry that into the scene to inform that initial gut punch. It's part of why writing is so hard, and I imagine it is even harder when operating within the confines of a musical. It is a plotpoint that connects, but from a strictly storytelling standpoint I feel like it is something that could have hit even harder and was demanding a payoff without totally achieving the setup. That isn't a slight a the song or the impact though, it is still genuinely stunning. Just an analysis of the writing craft and setup itself.
@@JacobPenrodWrites Probably but I think the point was that it *was* out of nowhere. It takes Ody and us by surprise, because as far as Ody knew his mom was still alive. She was a certainty, a given, something he didn't have to think about of course she would be at home. But then he learns she's not. She passed while he was at war and then trying to get home, "he took too long and ventured too far."
9:56 in some versions or the myth, the mom saw Odyseus' ship in "keep your friends close" and saw the storm (from the wind bag) take their ship away, she assumed her son died and followed them.
@@syedshakaibanwar2698 Correct me if I'm worng, but they were apparently so close to shore that they could smell the food people were cooking from their homes or something like that.
You are really spot on in a lot of your points! You really make me rethink some of these elements which is great! I do disagree in some points though. I don't think the line, 'I'm the only one whose line I haven't crossed' is deification. Its one of the first times we have seen true humility from Odysseus. You're right he's always got a plan to put in action and is willing to manipulate every situation and person to get his desired outcome, no matter if it crosses the lines of his friend/mentor Athena. He crossed the line for Poseidon and couldn't even properly apologize as he was asked because he didn't think he was wrong. Now he's in the underworld, surrounded by everyone he failed because of those actions and finally admitting he was wrong. His hubris led them all, and himself, to fall so low.
Yeah the more I think about it the more i agree with you. These are all off-the-cuff things that I notice as a knee-jerk reaction rather than a thought out analysis. So my mind heard "crossed lines" and made that connection. I think there IS an argument to be made for deification, but I think you have the much stronger interpretation of that moment compared to what I was saying in the moment.
@@JacobPenrodWrites The part I noticed and really disagreed with is that he isn't saying "what if I'm just like Poseidon" when he says "what if I'm the monster", he's saying "what if in trying to _not_ be the monster I've actually been making things so much worse instead of just nutting up and finishing things quickly when the opportunity arises". So he then goes on to ask himself, "Is holding on to this faint hope that I can just talk my way out of every situation worth sacrificing all of my men when it inevitably all goes wrong? Or do I need to stop trying to be 'Mr Smart Ass Pacifism Guy' and just start killing people already?" Yes, it does come back to "Maybe Poseidon was right", but it _started_ with the reflection of "All these people died because I refused to come to terms with the fact that sometimes you can't just refuse the terms of engagement and choose 'none of the above' in an 'A or B' situation, sometimes you just have to pick the least worst thing and do it".
He doesn’t want the guilt. This was the draw with Polites as well, the whole “I see in your in your face there’s so much guilt inside your heart/So why not replace it.” He tried doing that with open arms to the best he could (even though I agree, it was halfhearted), and now he’s trying to get rid of the guilt by being ruthless so he can “throw that guilt away.”
I love how you pointed out the headband being ripped off by Penelope! Whenever I watch people reacting to Monster they never seem to clock that and I’m left screaming at my screen that it’s symbolizing that he’s leaving that open arms mentality behind! I always loved how animators kept Polites’ headband on Odysseus throughout many, many animatics (in the Luck Runs Out animatic by Crashite they also reference the headband-but I think used it as Odysseus’s hair tie- and Eurylochus gestured to it when talking about not wanting to lose anyone else
8:46 it might feel more raw bc that is actually JORGE'S MOM. Its such a fun easter egg and imo makes the moment so much more heartwrenching. Jorge said that this was one of the harder scenes to record because of that.
I feel like you might have paused to question the mom's inclusion like, 5 seconds too early xD The reason she is significant is that THIS is where Odysseus AND the audience learns she died. She was alive when he left Ithaca, and he only knows she died once he travels through the underworld and sees it for himself. Not only that, but she can't even see him, since in Jorge's version of the Odyssey, the spirits don't know he's there (and just like you said, all they do is repeat their final thoughts). In the song "Keep Your Friends Close" you can see in Gigi's animatic that they were within sight of Ithaca. Odysseus' mom saw his ship nearing home, only to be swept away by the storm from the wind bag. In the original story, it's said that because of this she either takes her own life, or dies from grief. She never gets her closure of seeing her son come home safely, and he barely gets any closure either, since he can't interact with her at all (in the original he tries hugging her 3 times but can't because she's incorporeal) So not only is he being faced with all of the people he knew died, and under his command no less. But now he also sees that people he cared about die by him indirectly too. Everything that is keeping him from going home, he is putting on himself. All of the guilt is finally hitting him tenfold, and he's taking on even more guilt than you might say is fair to himself to do.
I think that is part of why it still affected me emotionally! I can definitely see the framework and what it is trying to do (and largely suceeding at). I just also think that from a sheer storytelling perspective it could have hit even harder had it been more clearly set up as something that matters to Odysseus before now. So it isn't that I think the mom plotpoint didn't work, just that I think it could have been strengthened with some slight developmental editing
@@JacobPenrodWrites Fair point, and I don't necessarily disagree. But I also think that the way it was handled worked very well too. To have the audience ask "who is this?", but for Odysseus to immediately know who's voice was singing to him only makes the gut-punch of "I took too long" hit even harder imo. We didn't even know his mother dying was a possibility, and yet here we are, completely blind-sighted by it - the same way Ody probably feels when he realises why he's seeing her in the underworld, because his mother dying before he gets to say goodbye was probably not even a possibility for him either.
@@JacobPenrodWrites part of the issue here is that we have none of the setup from the iliad (the story of the trojan war) which has a lot of setup for the odyssey. thats completely understandable as a narrative choice as youd have to DOUBLE the length of this musical to include it all. but there are many things to this story which dont have a lot of explained setup. to an extent a lot of the fandom already knows it because these are greek classics, there's a lot of shared cultural knowledge here that can be intuited for much of us if that makes sense. but for someone without that knowledge epic can be quite confusing at certain points
@JacobPenrodWrites for me, the execution of this is the very reason why it hits so hard. for those of us who choose to live away from our parents, it's so easy to forget about them because in our minds they're just a constant, you know? they'll always be there waiting for you. so you think, oh i'll see them next time. and then one day you find out that there won't be a next time. grief is hard enough but pairing it with guilt is devastating. odysseus saying "i took too long" is so painful for some of us. i like how they set it up where we never even thought of how his parents must be doing, because its so real
Calling monster "the midpoint's midpoint" is very accurate, because this is the end of Act 1. Imagine going to a theatre production and this is where they drop the intermission. Theres not going to be a damn word spoken in that theatre or the bathroom behind it.
I don't know where you pulled "the spirits are singing their final thoughts as they died" from but you are on point. That was a tidbit Jorge revealed in a bts video
What I love about No Longer You is that he sees "past and future running free", and most of the prophecy lyrics can be applied to moments before and after this point. Brother's final stand can be both Polites and Eurylochus, as you predict with a mutiny. also Angry Owl Odysseus! takes after his ex-friend/mentor very well.
6:27 Hol on hol on a sec "He was traumatized when he (dropped) the baby." Dude. You just made me think of a potential reason why we go from "End of sacking Troy" and skipping forward to "Full Speed Ahead". I think you're right. This is a trauma story. A good reason why we dont see the fallout of Troy falling and we go directly to heading home is because Ody isn’t dealing with his trauma until he starts to head home. I could be talking out my butt here, but one of the lasting effects of trauma is the inability to imagine a future, and it also is paired with memory loss, skipping ahead, and this journey, his journey home is one which he is taking so he can see a future for himself, in Penelope and Telemachus. One where he must be willing to do anything to get there. Only trouble is, the intent will not matter as much as the consequences. That's a random thought I paused to write out. 'm going to keep watching.
YES! So many often overlook the infant, or rather, don't factor that trauma in enough (understandable since there's PLENTY of trauma lol). It's the start of everything, the core trauma that shakes him first. Nothing had gone wrong for him until then except having to fight a war, but even then, he hadn't lost even a man in 10 years. But it's not a normal mistake. He's all logic but he's so very human, doing this broke something in him even if it was the logical, calculated thing to do, which is why he starts distancing himself from what Athena wanted him to be and she doesn't get it because emotions lol. Guilt is eating this poor man alive and it only gets worse. the only solution is not caring anymore so he can maybe save more people or at least get home and back to his salvation with his family (which is the reason he did everything he did after all, it needs to mean something- and he does love them deeply). And imagine it in context! 10 years of war and you're in the LAST battle, the god of all gods comes to tell you if you don't do this you wife and son will die for sure and you will have chosen this. The reason for everything you're doing the only solace at the end of the tunnel...gone. Nothing to look forward to, nothing to make everything matter, the people he loves above all others. gone. So he does it and from then it's a spiral because unfortunately he's just a man. i'm loving your reactions tbh, you're very analytical and really take into account trauma and how a person might react, together with the narrative ecc. You strike a nice balance also between recognizing Ody's faults and his humanity and emotional journey, why he does what he does.
I could be wrong, but if what I heard is correct, Gigi is pretty much the first to get these Epic the Musical Animatics going with her Horse and the Infant and Just a Man animatics. It all started with them.
Yep! As someone who was around before the original Cyclops saga came out, Gigi, Wolfy, and Mircsy were the only main animatic makers for a long time. Those were the main three.
one of my favourite things about these consecutive reactions to Epic's sagas is seeing your subscriber count grow bit by bit at an incredible pace. its very heartwarming haha.
There is nothing shameful about crying! Just as you said on how Ody's tale has touched you it makes sense that the music & the animantics showcasing his trauma would touch you emotionally too! You've been right about how Polites has such a huge impact on Ody & how everything fell apart the moment he decided to kill the baby. Your POV & analysis is so spot on it's like you were there in the recording booth as Jorge was crafting this musical maybe you're the prophet in real life lol I'm sure others have commented already but Ody has a motif from Horse & the infant/Just a Man that gets changed up in Monster so definitely keep an ear out for that! Especially how Ody's guitar changes to match the tone of his character thru each song he's in I hope once your done with Epic you'll take the time to check out some of the cut songs that couldn't be in the musical some of them give really good backstory too And this musical is my favorite too I'm not kidding when I say it changed my life & I'm forever grateful for Jorge introducing so many of us, new & old, to Odysseus the man who's odyssey truly was the birth of epic tales we all love today Definitely will check out your books! And congratulations on your debut!!! 🫶
The prophet definitly made a point counter towards what Ody said when he was asleep : " But I'm the same, still the same" and here the prophet comes:" well someone is comming back from it but not the man that left." loved that from the first time hearing it.
I feel like youd appreciate this from a writing standpoint: Everytime danger is near or present, a "there is danger" theme will always play in the music
love the fact that you picked up on the significant casting choice for Ody's mom, even if you didn't know that that was Jorge's mom voicing her. definitely very significant, and raw vocals from her.❤
Cheating is the absolute opposite of Odysseues's character. One of the few Greek heroes (or even just named beings) that actually value their marriage and want only to he with their spouse.
a small thing about monster, i truly think that he's also seeing himself back in the war and how then (when he found himself able to throw the baby off the wall simply for the fact that he COULD have been a danger to his family in the future), he did manage to keep his 600 men all alive. 10 years of war in which he was ruthless towards their enemy and none of them died. but in the short time he has been sailing back boat -the moment he tried to leave that all behind, and not be that person; he found himself with 558 of them gone, including his closest of friends (this is even in the odyssey, btw, basically the one thing we get to know about polites is that he was ody's best and closest friend) so in a way, sadly, it's the bias of "well when i was ruthless, i kept everyone safe, so SURELY if i go back to that it will be the same", and every single situation he has been in since then reinforcing that mentality
I like the mom part it. It was shocking because it didn't have a setup. It made me think about people I have loved but had drifted apart from. I thought I had time and I had so much more important issues to face. I thought i had time to fix things later. Then they died. If Odysseus is feeling anything close to what I felt then having a setup wouldn't have worked. I feel Odysseus took his mother for granted to always be there.
Genuinely impressed that you immediately picked up on what Jorge has confirmed he was doing with the last thoughts of the dead, and without any prior knowledge you were able to notice that his mom was played by his mom (even if you weren't able to perfectly guess, you basically figured it out). That is impressively observant. Remember all the stuff that the prophet said, don't forget a word. More than most, I'm sure you'll be able to identify the beats. Without spoiling, I cannot WAIT until you hit the Vengeance Saga. We love! Gigi! In! This! House! and as far as the trauma story vs love story thing...I've actually heard it speculated that the original Odyssey was intended to be symbolic of, essentially, what we know as PTSD - sometimes it takes you longer than it should to really, truly, fully come back from the war. It's an interesting theory, at least.
The thing is, Epic: The Musical and the original Odyssey absolutely *are* a love story, however, most Greek tales of love are rife with challenges, and many end in tragedy. This is a Greek love story... but it is also about the horrors of war and how it changes someone, through the lens of mythical monsters, fate and the intervention of the divine, and so much more. It is a love story, but also a massive tragedy... yet the ending (which I won't spoil) does show the theme that such traumas can shape but not erase what was before, and that such trauma can be eased if there is still something to live for after a war or other massive event such as that. It runs through so many of the stages of grief, of rise and fall, but that human determination to keep going, full speed ahead, is what makes humanity reach beyond the mundane and become legends in their own tales. It teaches that everyone is a survivor of their own past, regardless of how harsh or light it may have been, and everyone should have empathy for whatever caused someone to harden their hearts, and to try to ease those burdens, not add further to them.
This one is my favorite saga, between the emotions, Tiresias's song foreshadowing the whole rest of Epic, and Odysseus beginning his evolution into the monster this world has made him mirroring him to all those monsters he faced. I just love that and ironically it's the one saga with the least song yet it portrays SO MUCH
Wanted to say once again you are my favorite Epic reactor The levels of media literacy you have to so quickly understand the themes, characters etc its amazing Ive been listening to this musical for months and I still get surprised by layers of this I hadnt realized until you verbalized I'm extremely curious on your thoughts in the next sagas 'cause I have conflicts with them and maybe I could understand through you better why that is
Im so glad you catch up to the infant thing!! That also explains why he didn’t kill the cyclops Plus Polites dying makes him so traumatized. He is so guilty with the infant and Polites (plus his men) so he adapt Polites “last wish” to him, he is also so tired of killing so yeah if the infant didn’t happened this wouldn’t have happened!! Love this musical sm
This is once more, why I call this a masterpiece. Because if the musical or the animatics can be able to make you cry or it hits you somehow, then buddy you have made something impactful, it's just aghhh, cause shedding some tears is not something easy or wasteful, i believe, so once again WELL DONE 👏 👏 👏 😭
you actually fully understanding of odysseus as monster is the thing that makes your reaction series such an incredible breath of fresh air so few people have actually grasped this self deception and this construction of trauma he wears as armor i cannot wait for you to see the final song.
I don't think it's that few people catch it, I think that everyone cathches it in its due time, it's only that it's a transformation in the musical, Odysseus *didn't* start being the monster, didn't start being ruthless, everything that happens in the musical and what he's lived before leads him to become the monster, all so he can return to his wife and son safely and see them again, and so he can protect them, because they are the most important people in his life and his main objective, in the end his only true objective
Also without spoiling anything. Ody wanting to return his family is very literal. He's not trying to chase some illusion of control or the image of a happy life. He just wants to see them and be with them. It's very face value in that respect. Yeah he probably thinks he'll feel better but bottom line he wants to be with his family.
Hey man, I don't know if you'll read this but you have become one of my favorite react channels for the musical. Your analysis opening up new realizations for me, so much care and thought put into it, and your ramblings of your analysis are so interesting to listen to. Not to mention you are incredibly nice and supportive of the artists here. I appreciate each new video and hearing your thoughts and observations, and I can't wait to see future videos even outside of epic!!
9:00 "I think there may be some significance in the casting". It's Jorge's mother singing. The fact you picked up something was happening there is really impressive
11:10 the reason it hits Ody so hard to see his mom is that his mom was still alive when he left Ithaca, he’s literally realizing at that moment that his mother died waiting for him to come home
I love how smart and perceptive this man is. Yeah, your theory of the men and everyone singing their last thoughts and moments it's true. Actually confirmed by Jorge himself. They sing what they thought and felt before dying. Also, Ody's mom is actually Jorge's actual mom singing. He casted her to be his mom in the musical too, which is cute and also very sad. And! Odysseus mom was alive 10 years ago. She died while he was away, so him meeting her in the underworld was how he learned she passed away. Imagine having to know your mom died waiting for you and you took too long to see her again.... Yeah, Ody has it rough.
16:12 OMG I’M APART OF MY SCHOOL PRODUCTION THIS YEAR AND WE’RE DOING NEWSIES I ALMOST JUMPED OUT OF MY SEAT WHEN YOU MENTIONED IT 😭😭 saying penelope is odysseus’s santa fe is a comparison i would’ve never thought of but you’re so right!!
This channel is the gift that just keeps on giving I swear! Just an hour ago I found the first reaction, and I've loved the analysis you've given thus far! I realized how closely uploaded the video were and recognized that it's very likely one would drop today or tomorrow, I was not expecting one to drop like 15 minutes after I finished the circe saga video!
Another thing to say about the inclusion of Anticlea (Odysseus's mom) is she is supposed to bring back the "Penelope is Waiting" motif that was first introduced in Full Speed Ahead. This doesnt have much payoff because this is supposed to be the setup for Penelope.
Your videos are my favorite reactions! It’s insane how perceptive you are with all of this. I have watched so many reactions and thought I KNEW every aspect of this musical but still you explain it in such a depth that enlightens me in every video! Thank you so much!
I swear you have a direct link into my brain it's so fun to hear similar character dissections as mine from someone else! Ody is one of my favorite characters to chew on, there's so much there to get into!
No Longer You was my most listened to song of 2024, mainly because I had to listen to it so much to process it. I've really been enjoying your reactions! Thanks so much for pausing, thinking, and sharing 😀
35:40 the two pillars when it comes to the animatic sides of the fandom are gigi and gwendy if Jorge wants a song to hit emotionally in the official animatics in the watch party live streams he calls gigi when he wants to convey the brutality of a moment or song he calls gwendy
The fact that you figured out the last words thing before the Polities and Anticlea parts is horrifying, they must have hit much harder with that information.
Yet again, you are really good at predicting everything!! I do urge you to pay attention to the chanting at the very end of No Longer You. It basically echos absolutely everything Tiresius (the prophet) said would happen but with even more clues on the specifics of the next sagas, who will show up in what order, etc. (Saying this because every Odyssey adaptation out there rearranges the events and skips a couple, including Epic pff) Here is what is being chanted in the background: (I'm separating it a bit so you can skip if you'd like since for a long time that part didn't have official lyrics, so everyone was interpreting the words by ear, so if you don't wanna be spoiled for that experience, you can avoid looking at them pfff) Siren song Scylla throat Mutiny Lightning bolt Hurt Po-sei-don Kill all the suitors for love
Im so glad you're finally seeing how much killing the infant hurt and changed Odysseus because thats like the whole basis of the musical, like the infant was the catalyst that shook Odysseus' confidence in his own judgement and who he is as a person, and then the loss of Polites, his angel on the shoulder as you very aptly described him before, is the push over the edge into the mudslide that leads him to becoming the Monster by the end of Act 1
Note about Ody's mom. As the fleet was approaching the island, she was watching and saw the storm form when "someone" opened the bag of storms and sweep the fleet away. When this happened, she chouldn't stand waiting any more and thought they were all lost at see so prematurely self terminated.
Are you Tiresias? Good lord....I won't tell you what you're right about but....😳😳😳. In all seriousness I find it fascinating you're focusing on his grief, it is such a unique take I haven't heard before! I personally have theories about his grief and how it relates to him as a monster....but yours is sooooo much more in depth. You are now officially one of my favorite reactors!
I LOVE THESE REACTIONS i’m not good at deciphering words and stuff in music so all of these little details are making me realize how much work was put into this musical, jorge is absolutely amazing for making this and i really hope he sees these reactions, its making me realize so much more and appreciating everythjng hes done
Something I think gets overlooked a lot with friends I've talked with is how his crew echoes Odysseus' lines. It's not just Odysseus traumatized, it's all his men. And not just from his crew's deaths, but from everything. They all went through war together. Have all been away so long. Everything that Odysseus is feeling is also felt by his crew, but Odysseus bears the extra burden of being their leader. He's responsibly not just for himself, but for all of them, and genuinely wanted to get every single one of them back. He's not dealing with his trauma, because he feels like he *can't.* If he does, he fears it will break him, and he can't break as their leader. He's not *supposed* to break, and Odysseus feels all that pressure. He's meant to be the pillar his men rely on, but is so concerned presenting himself as reliable, he pushes them away as he crumbles piece by piece. Ironically becoming less and less able to be the pillar he needs to be. And every time he fails, it stabs at him, because he *does* care about them. And I think that's part of his need for control. He knows he's losing control, not of the situation, but himself. His inability to control things stems from that lack of control in his own mental state. At least, that's my read.
His mother's death is cannon in the odyssey, but in the scope of this musical, it's a reminder of the stakes and penalties Odysseus incurs with every delay and distraction. His journey is taking too long, he's running out of time as time is taking his loved ones further away from him. His mother's dying thoughts were of waiting for him and her plans of seeing her son again before she died which never came true, the same could happen to his wife and son. The looming threat of your loved ones not simply living without you, but DYING without you is a terrifying thought when you are trying so hard to return to them.
Appearantly, Tireseus (the prophet) cant see Odysseus standing before him, as he is seeing Past, Present and the Future at the same time, so he's also not technically answering Odysseus' questions but just narrating what he is seeing
37:36 i actually interpreted this less as him shedding the philosophy (though now that seems like the obvious interpretation) and more as him, again, using the idea of penelope as his anchor. the visualization of her taking away his guilt, her easing his suffering. as he "becomes the monster", he tells himself his actions are justified because he does it for her and telemachus. it's a way of surrendering his responsibility, because the responsibility hurts so much. either way, huge respect to gigi for the little details
I swear, I am always shocked at just how much you are able to pick up on and predict. It honestly makes me appreciate Epic and the sheer amount of detail that Jorge put into it even more. Also, you are completely spoiling us with these daily uploads! I love it! Can’t wait for the next saga. And yes, Gigi is a treasure. Her animatics are incredible and that visual of Odysseus clasping hands with the monster and the way it goes into him hit me so hard the first time I saw it.
28:34 Odysseus is telling himself he's got to stop asking himself these questions and stop feeling guilt. (But you're right that in doing so and feeling that guilt it shows he's not one, even if he tells himself that.) But he wants to make himself a monster if that is what it takes to get home. - Which is made more clear as the song goes on.
This is so much fun to watch! The voice of Ody’s mom is actually Jorge’s mom. Also this is something that happens in the original story She dies after seeing the storm from (storm) believe he is already dead.
Been watching since the first video and subscribed on the second! I just want to say that this series has been a breath of fresh air as someone who’s been following Epic since the Cyclops Saga and watching reactors pretty much since that point. I think what makes this series *work* is that you put the whole saga in one video, and that paired with the depth of analysis you do is extremely effective. I cannot imagine it working out the same way if the sagas were split up between multiple videos. The flow is great and the coherence of your thoughts (immediate thoughts no less!) is exactly what the fandom needs at this time, with the whole concept musical finally being released. I haven’t seen any other creator tackle the meat of this narrative quite like this before, and I think the musical as a whole benefits from this type of analysis as it pulls all the sagas (something a lot of us were experiencing over the course of literal months/years) together as a singular story rather than separate installments. This got really long but thank you for your work!!
honestly Anticlea's part in The Underworld got me sobbing because I related to Odysseus too much there. That gut-punch sudden realization that your mother is just... gone. And you didn't even get to say goodbye.
Also would like to add an important note about Penelope. She's the daughter of a Spartan King. Just to keep in mind about what kind of "idealized vision" she'd have of her dear husband
omg thank you so much for the nice words!! That monster animatic is one of my personal favorite works, I love seeing people react to it haha!
Gigi, you legend!!!
Love ya Gigi! :))
I can see why it would be a favorite. You should be incredibly proud of it!
I personally love I am a monster rawr rawr rawr!
That animatic was one of the first EPIC animatics I watched and it is one of my favourite animatics to date. Probably one of the reasons Monster is one of my favourite songs honestly! Love your work gigi!
The reason the voice feels more "Raw" than a professional musician is the voice of Odysseus' mother is Jorge's ACTUAL MOM
You mean my stupid joke about “maybe they got Odysseus’s mom” was actually right!? 😂😂😂
@@JacobPenrodWritesKinda, yeah
@@JacobPenrodWrites Yes lmao
@@JacobPenrodWrites He said that she had a really hard time while recording this because she got very emotional to the point of crying 😭
And when she was singing it, it hit her that Jorgé would outlive her and she was crying while singing this. Coming to terms that one day she will be gone and not see everything he has done.
Fun fact his dad has a future role as well as his sister.
I've watched dozens of Epic reactors and you are the FIRST to immediately realize that the Underworld characters are saying their last thoughts before they died. It legit only took me a few minutes into your first reaction to know that you were immediately going to be one of my top 3 favorite reactors, your insight into the story is SO good.
@@havenhillsongs thank you so much for watching and the kind words!
I could NOT BELIEVE he guessed that. I was freaking out 😆 🤣
Oh we all love Gigi in this fandom, Gigi is our fandom treasure.
And to make you appreciate her skills even more - she's only 19, and she's pumping out these works
That is shocking amounts of talent for being so young. Absolutely amazing.
WAIT GIGI'S 19? HOW IS SHE SO TALENTED
She is our Oda. 😂
@@JacobPenrodWrites go look for Don’t Lose Your Head Animatic that Gigi made when she was only 15-16. It’s unlisted on her channel but you can find it on the Playlist tab.
@muriacyWHAT
*no way*
That’s. what. *h o w*
I actually love how Odys mom comes out of nowhere, you just sorta take your parents for granted, he hadnt even considered his mom would be gone before he got home. She never crossed his mind until he saw her
Yeah I can definitely see the appeal of how he did it. It feels intentional rather than sloppy. When I say it can be tightened, what I mean is that it is currently written in a way where the impact is largely depending on what the viewer is bringing INTO the story with their preconceived notions of motherly relationships rather than painting what what the relationship looks like for us. It is something that feels stylistic rather than amateur, but I do think there are ways it could have hit me even harder. I still think its an incredibly powerful moment.
Odysseus EXPECTED all the other spirits he met. This one was a total shock to him
@@JacobPenrodWritesdon’t forget too that this is the concept, he wants to write a whole script plus the music i believe. I am loving your analysis maybe you two can brainstorm how to make all the songs connect?
@@austinkreider4916 doesn’t Jorge want Epic to be a sung through musical?
@@internetuser528as far as I read it is both written and sung he said Hamilton was in inspiration but not what he wants to do. But that might have changed I heard that back before the underworld saga came out so my info is dated. If I am wrong please correct me
Fun fact: Jorge has stated that "I see a world where I help you get home, but that's not a world I know" is actually a cheeky callback to the oryginal Odyssey (as well other Odyssey adaptations), where Tiresias is apparently way more straightforward and helpful. EPIC is set in a multiversum but only Tiresias knows about it lol
Multiverse is a strange choice but I’m here for it!
@JacobPenrodWrites jorge has gamer brain and said that so they can potentially make video games lol (there a game based on epic being made right now as well)
@@JacobPenrodWritesIt makes sense tho since greek myths contradict each other all the time
@@JacobPenrodWrites I mean, theres a version of the Odessey where Odysseus has a kid with Circe. In this one, he didn't even stay on her island for very long, also didn't sleep with her. Its less important than it implies, more of a offhand joke that doesn't distract from the song.
So epic as a whole is serving this idea a ruthlessness and the necessity of it to protect those you love its foil is the idea polities had of open arms
I've always looked at this way, the infant trauma leads him to over-lean into polites mindset, only to be knocked back into pragmatism via his death. He's bouncing between extremes, missing the middle ground except in a few small moments like with Circe.
For further context: funeral rites were deeply important in ancient Greece, the deceased had to be buried or burned on a pyre, and a coin had to be placed in the mouth of the deceased to pay for the passage on the river Styx.
Failure to provide these rites condemned the deceased to remain stranded for 200 years on the banks of the Styx, unable to access the afterlife.
All the men of Odysseus' crew who have died so far have not been able to receive the funeral rites, and thus find themselves trapped at the threshold of the Underworld.
This is also the reason why Odysseus was so devastated by having to leave Polites and the other men in Polyphemus' cave, without being able to ensure him a worthy burial.
Now even half a minute in and he's already called the whole point of Underworld being the turning point in Ody's arc. This man is Tiresias
He called it last video (the exact words being "the middle point of the story is a moment of transformation, this is what I expect from the final song of act I")
@laytonjr6601 it's insane how correct his predictions have been so far
I can’t believe he figured out the spirits are voicing their last thoughts this man is actually incredible
@@bahnankhayre9534absolutely putting Casper to shame lol
it helps that his wife is an Epic fan.
I think it is both a trauma story and a love story, reason he keeps pushing through the trauma and through everything is because of his love for his wife and son, if he didn't have that love he would give up at some point, and just cut his losses, especially after the next saga.
Absolutely agree
Although neither of those are the main point of the story. It's a story about ruthlessness. The other themes are there to serve that one.
@@leonglitch, no, the theme of ruthlessness is there to serve the theme of his love for his wife and son and his desire to return home with them, that's why the theme of ruthlessness is so important here, because he must become ruthless to return to his wife and son, that's the them of Epic, becoming ruthless to attain his true and absolute goal which is his return to his family that he loves, which he even state from the beginning and is said clearly in "Just a man" forshadowing this musical and what it is about, so the theme of ruthlessness is there to serve the theme and and main point, objective and desire of Odysseus to return to his family, it is a choice that he makes to be able to return to them, so the theme of the musical is actually Odysseus having to become ruthless to be able to return alive to his wife and son, which is his main objective and the most important thing to him, so yeah, ruthlessness is there to serve that purpose, not the other way around, this is mainly a love and family story in which the husband and father does everything that he has to do, no matter what, to return to the wife and son that he loves so dearly and who are the two most important people in his life, even becoming ruthless and stripping away who he used to be and tried and wanted to be, no matter how much it hurts, because it would hurt even more the absence of his wife and son or seeing them hurt in any way
@@leonglitchI think it's the other way around. The ruthlessness theme is a part of the trauma and tragedy of a well-intended man turning into a monster.
@leonglitch jorge himself added those themes to the story. I think a good story does have A theme, I wouldn't say Breaking Bad has A single theme, a good story should say many things
i am the monster rawr rawr rawr
Omg if he had reacted to THAT monster instead … 😂😂😂
NGL I was hoping they snuck the "I am the Monster Rawr Rawr Rawr" Gigi video in there for comedic effect
I am not an owl 🦉
@@amandahibbs3690 WHOOOOOO?!! 🦉
So at around the 19:30 mark as you were explaining Odys "WHO" It has actually been confirmed by Jay that the reason he sounds so frantic and upset is because he didn't realize the profit was talking about him so all he could hear was his wife was going to be around a dangerous murderer.
For a moment i thought youre gonna say jay confirmed that athena possessed him a but and became an owl
@@d1anacrystal127 💀
@@d1anacrystal127actually I like that reason a whole lot more
@@d1anacrystal127 we all know that’s canon tho
🦉
The reason its 558 men who died instead of 557 is because one of his men got drunk when Circe invited them in (thats why she turned them into pigs, because they got roudy while drunk, not just to eat them or whatever, in the original) and the youngest member of the crew climbed on top of the roof, and fell down and broke his neck, nobody found his body or noticed his body until they were in the underworld and he asked Ody to bury him he was a cut song because the song came out too funny
"I DIED AND NOBODY NOTICED, I DIED AND NOBODY CARED"
Could be an intermission song for those who stay in their seats lol
ELPENOR HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?!??
HOW DID YOU MEET YOUR DESPAIR???!
@@ClawNation479 I DRANK WINE FROM A CHALICE, ON TOP OF CIRCE’S PALACE, AND FELL AND BROKE MY NECK IN SHAME, BUT WHAT DO YOU CARE?
@@mangamouse520 SO MANY DEATH HAPPENED UNDER YOUR RAIN.
SO MANY DEATHS HAPPEN UNDER YOU REIGN
4:07 "Okay.. we're okay." 😭😭 exactly what we keep saying to ourselves as the traumatized audience throughout the whole fucking musical
so true! XD
After suffering no happiness allowed till I can't help but wounder 18 whole songs of trama
@@btr1011 true :(
Fun fact: Chorus at the end of No Longer You is important and filled with spoilers to act 2 because it's a prophecy. But when Underworld Saga came out no one knew what was those lyrics. Jorge deliberately refused to tell us what it was. And I will be evil and won't say what those lyrics are.
Blablabla, blablabla, blablabla, blablabla, bla-bla-bla-bla, blablabla-blablablabla
Hehe... Going by scyllables heheh...
For those who don't mind spoilers or already watched/listened to the whole musical, I'll write it here in a reply, click Read more to see it
Lyrics:
Siren song
Scylla Throat
Mutiny
Lightning Bolt
Hurt Poseidon
Kill all the suitors for love
@@dar-nakkallig You evil mastermind
@@StripedSharky I thought it's "Fight Posidon"??
@eurekatagdulang6980 Jorge confirmed it's Hurt Poseidon recently
Bro is not ready for thunder saga, cant wait for that reaction.
I WAS DESTROYED
Welcome to Epic the Musical.
Ya i tell people after suffering abandon all happiness ye who enter here because this musical will destroy you also if thunder saga destroyed you get in the back of the line for Jorge's therapy billing cause the rest of the musical hurts so much more
Your on song 20 in this video we don't get to feel any joy again till song 39
I think from Odysseus's perspective, a monster isn't just someone who does cruel things, but someone who doesn't feel guilt for doing cruel things. He's basically saying "I've been holding back to try to not suffer the guilt of my actions, but that means I've been cruel to my men by not doing EVERYTHING I can to bring us(me) home."
TGE FACT YOU CALLED IT THAT THE DEADS WORDS IN THIS ARE THEIR LAST THOUGHRS BEFORE THEY DIED
That is WILD.
The Underworld Saga is my favorite saga for a reason. The Underworld, No Longer You and Monster are easily the best tracks to me.
HARD agree. the foreshadowing in No Longer You combined with Tiresias' heavenly voice is my favorite song of the whole thing loll
Didn't Jorge confirm this at some point?
@@GasperV0He did, Thats why (i think) its so impressive that Jacob manages to catch these messeges.
Almost like he also writes novels and is able to read between the lines more effectively
The only thing he didn't catch which alot of people didn't is what the chorus is singing at the end most of us didn't even notice stuff was being said till the man flat out said there's something hidden in no longer you
I forgot to say this before, but many congratulations on your debut novel!!
Thank you so much!!
@@JacobPenrodWritesI think I’ll be checking it out once I get through my physical TBR. The holidays as usual have left me with almost 10 new books so it might be a bit unfortunately…
I'm still being caught off guard (and amazed) by your media literacy, your analysis are so rich. I am mentally putting a pin on this video because I have a comment to make tying it to a later saga, so I'll get back to it when you're there
As a fellow writer it's so refreshing hearing it broken down like this, like I have these same thoughts but the way Inkwrites put it into perspective really helps my writing and helping me expound on how I want to write my characters
@@distinguishedallureproduct879so much this! (Same)
Oh when we hit the final saga i want to see if he relooks at the foreshadowing in this saga
You asked in an earlier video how the fandom would handle itself between sagas, well now I can tell you it's quite simple.
Waiting, Waaaaiting
The thing with the mom is that this is when he learned she died. The last time he saw here she was at home and then he went off to war. Her last thoughts were: "Odysseus when youll come home ill be waiting" and Odysseus said:"I took too long" he was gone for to long and now his mom is desd and he found out because he sees her spirit in the underworld
Anticlea died when she saw the storm at the end of "keep your friends close" (they were very close to getting home). Meanwhile Argos (the dog, not the ship of the same name or the kingdom of the same name) died in Odysseus' arms
That's incredibily powerful. I still feel like it could have had even more impact with some more intentional setup throughout the musical, but it is still extremely resonant as-is
@@JacobPenrodWritesyou don’t really have that time in this musical sadly, maybe if there was more speaking parts by this musical doesn’t have any and it has a lot to fill out with the runtime
@@backpack_hermit25 Yeah it is such a tightly written musical that it is a delicate balancing act. I think that for what it is, it works. I also think that it laregely depends on an audience assumption that he has a meaningful connection to his mother rather than us being able to carry that into the scene to inform that initial gut punch. It's part of why writing is so hard, and I imagine it is even harder when operating within the confines of a musical. It is a plotpoint that connects, but from a strictly storytelling standpoint I feel like it is something that could have hit even harder and was demanding a payoff without totally achieving the setup. That isn't a slight a the song or the impact though, it is still genuinely stunning. Just an analysis of the writing craft and setup itself.
@@JacobPenrodWrites Probably but I think the point was that it *was* out of nowhere. It takes Ody and us by surprise, because as far as Ody knew his mom was still alive. She was a certainty, a given, something he didn't have to think about of course she would be at home. But then he learns she's not. She passed while he was at war and then trying to get home, "he took too long and ventured too far."
9:56 in some versions or the myth, the mom saw Odyseus' ship in "keep your friends close" and saw the storm (from the wind bag) take their ship away, she assumed her son died and followed them.
Yeah they were like a hundred or so feet away from Ithaca when the Wind Bag was opened.
@@syedshakaibanwar2698 Correct me if I'm worng, but they were apparently so close to shore that they could smell the food people were cooking from their homes or something like that.
You are really spot on in a lot of your points! You really make me rethink some of these elements which is great! I do disagree in some points though. I don't think the line, 'I'm the only one whose line I haven't crossed' is deification. Its one of the first times we have seen true humility from Odysseus. You're right he's always got a plan to put in action and is willing to manipulate every situation and person to get his desired outcome, no matter if it crosses the lines of his friend/mentor Athena. He crossed the line for Poseidon and couldn't even properly apologize as he was asked because he didn't think he was wrong.
Now he's in the underworld, surrounded by everyone he failed because of those actions and finally admitting he was wrong. His hubris led them all, and himself, to fall so low.
Yeah the more I think about it the more i agree with you. These are all off-the-cuff things that I notice as a knee-jerk reaction rather than a thought out analysis. So my mind heard "crossed lines" and made that connection. I think there IS an argument to be made for deification, but I think you have the much stronger interpretation of that moment compared to what I was saying in the moment.
@@JacobPenrodWrites The part I noticed and really disagreed with is that he isn't saying "what if I'm just like Poseidon" when he says "what if I'm the monster", he's saying "what if in trying to _not_ be the monster I've actually been making things so much worse instead of just nutting up and finishing things quickly when the opportunity arises". So he then goes on to ask himself, "Is holding on to this faint hope that I can just talk my way out of every situation worth sacrificing all of my men when it inevitably all goes wrong? Or do I need to stop trying to be 'Mr Smart Ass Pacifism Guy' and just start killing people already?" Yes, it does come back to "Maybe Poseidon was right", but it _started_ with the reflection of "All these people died because I refused to come to terms with the fact that sometimes you can't just refuse the terms of engagement and choose 'none of the above' in an 'A or B' situation, sometimes you just have to pick the least worst thing and do it".
He doesn’t want the guilt. This was the draw with Polites as well, the whole “I see in your in your face there’s so much guilt inside your heart/So why not replace it.” He tried doing that with open arms to the best he could (even though I agree, it was halfhearted), and now he’s trying to get rid of the guilt by being ruthless so he can “throw that guilt away.”
I love how you pointed out the headband being ripped off by Penelope! Whenever I watch people reacting to Monster they never seem to clock that and I’m left screaming at my screen that it’s symbolizing that he’s leaving that open arms mentality behind! I always loved how animators kept Polites’ headband on Odysseus throughout many, many animatics (in the Luck Runs Out animatic by Crashite they also reference the headband-but I think used it as Odysseus’s hair tie- and Eurylochus gestured to it when talking about not wanting to lose anyone else
8:46 it might feel more raw bc that is actually JORGE'S MOM. Its such a fun easter egg and imo makes the moment so much more heartwrenching. Jorge said that this was one of the harder scenes to record because of that.
4:20 I LOVE THAT YOU CAUGHT TAT oh my god yeah the spirits words are their last thoughts. i love that someone caught that
I feel like you might have paused to question the mom's inclusion like, 5 seconds too early xD
The reason she is significant is that THIS is where Odysseus AND the audience learns she died. She was alive when he left Ithaca, and he only knows she died once he travels through the underworld and sees it for himself. Not only that, but she can't even see him, since in Jorge's version of the Odyssey, the spirits don't know he's there (and just like you said, all they do is repeat their final thoughts).
In the song "Keep Your Friends Close" you can see in Gigi's animatic that they were within sight of Ithaca. Odysseus' mom saw his ship nearing home, only to be swept away by the storm from the wind bag. In the original story, it's said that because of this she either takes her own life, or dies from grief. She never gets her closure of seeing her son come home safely, and he barely gets any closure either, since he can't interact with her at all (in the original he tries hugging her 3 times but can't because she's incorporeal)
So not only is he being faced with all of the people he knew died, and under his command no less. But now he also sees that people he cared about die by him indirectly too.
Everything that is keeping him from going home, he is putting on himself. All of the guilt is finally hitting him tenfold, and he's taking on even more guilt than you might say is fair to himself to do.
I think that is part of why it still affected me emotionally! I can definitely see the framework and what it is trying to do (and largely suceeding at). I just also think that from a sheer storytelling perspective it could have hit even harder had it been more clearly set up as something that matters to Odysseus before now. So it isn't that I think the mom plotpoint didn't work, just that I think it could have been strengthened with some slight developmental editing
@@JacobPenrodWrites Fair point, and I don't necessarily disagree. But I also think that the way it was handled worked very well too.
To have the audience ask "who is this?", but for Odysseus to immediately know who's voice was singing to him only makes the gut-punch of "I took too long" hit even harder imo.
We didn't even know his mother dying was a possibility, and yet here we are, completely blind-sighted by it - the same way Ody probably feels when he realises why he's seeing her in the underworld, because his mother dying before he gets to say goodbye was probably not even a possibility for him either.
@@JacobPenrodWrites part of the issue here is that we have none of the setup from the iliad (the story of the trojan war) which has a lot of setup for the odyssey. thats completely understandable as a narrative choice as youd have to DOUBLE the length of this musical to include it all. but there are many things to this story which dont have a lot of explained setup. to an extent a lot of the fandom already knows it because these are greek classics, there's a lot of shared cultural knowledge here that can be intuited for much of us if that makes sense. but for someone without that knowledge epic can be quite confusing at certain points
@JacobPenrodWrites for me, the execution of this is the very reason why it hits so hard. for those of us who choose to live away from our parents, it's so easy to forget about them because in our minds they're just a constant, you know? they'll always be there waiting for you. so you think, oh i'll see them next time. and then one day you find out that there won't be a next time. grief is hard enough but pairing it with guilt is devastating. odysseus saying "i took too long" is so painful for some of us. i like how they set it up where we never even thought of how his parents must be doing, because its so real
Calling monster "the midpoint's midpoint" is very accurate, because this is the end of Act 1. Imagine going to a theatre production and this is where they drop the intermission. Theres not going to be a damn word spoken in that theatre or the bathroom behind it.
I would go on a 20 year voyage to see Epic live on broadway
I don't know where you pulled "the spirits are singing their final thoughts as they died" from but you are on point. That was a tidbit Jorge revealed in a bts video
What I love about No Longer You is that he sees "past and future running free", and most of the prophecy lyrics can be applied to moments before and after this point. Brother's final stand can be both Polites and Eurylochus, as you predict with a mutiny.
also Angry Owl Odysseus! takes after his ex-friend/mentor very well.
6:27 Hol on hol on a sec
"He was traumatized when he (dropped) the baby."
Dude. You just made me think of a potential reason why we go from "End of sacking Troy" and skipping forward to "Full Speed Ahead".
I think you're right. This is a trauma story. A good reason why we dont see the fallout of Troy falling and we go directly to heading home is because Ody isn’t dealing with his trauma until he starts to head home. I could be talking out my butt here, but one of the lasting effects of trauma is the inability to imagine a future, and it also is paired with memory loss, skipping ahead, and this journey, his journey home is one which he is taking so he can see a future for himself, in Penelope and Telemachus. One where he must be willing to do anything to get there. Only trouble is, the intent will not matter as much as the consequences.
That's a random thought I paused to write out. 'm going to keep watching.
YES! So many often overlook the infant, or rather, don't factor that trauma in enough (understandable since there's PLENTY of trauma lol). It's the start of everything, the core trauma that shakes him first. Nothing had gone wrong for him until then except having to fight a war, but even then, he hadn't lost even a man in 10 years. But it's not a normal mistake. He's all logic but he's so very human, doing this broke something in him even if it was the logical, calculated thing to do, which is why he starts distancing himself from what Athena wanted him to be and she doesn't get it because emotions lol. Guilt is eating this poor man alive and it only gets worse. the only solution is not caring anymore so he can maybe save more people or at least get home and back to his salvation with his family (which is the reason he did everything he did after all, it needs to mean something- and he does love them deeply).
And imagine it in context! 10 years of war and you're in the LAST battle, the god of all gods comes to tell you if you don't do this you wife and son will die for sure and you will have chosen this. The reason for everything you're doing the only solace at the end of the tunnel...gone. Nothing to look forward to, nothing to make everything matter, the people he loves above all others. gone.
So he does it and from then it's a spiral because unfortunately he's just a man.
i'm loving your reactions tbh, you're very analytical and really take into account trauma and how a person might react, together with the narrative ecc. You strike a nice balance also between recognizing Ody's faults and his humanity and emotional journey, why he does what he does.
I could be wrong, but if what I heard is correct, Gigi is pretty much the first to get these Epic the Musical Animatics going with her Horse and the Infant and Just a Man animatics. It all started with them.
Yep! As someone who was around before the original Cyclops saga came out, Gigi, Wolfy, and Mircsy were the only main animatic makers for a long time. Those were the main three.
Gigi is Apollo approved
one of my favourite things about these consecutive reactions to Epic's sagas is seeing your subscriber count grow bit by bit at an incredible pace. its very heartwarming haha.
There is nothing shameful about crying! Just as you said on how Ody's tale has touched you it makes sense that the music & the animantics showcasing his trauma would touch you emotionally too! You've been right about how Polites has such a huge impact on Ody & how everything fell apart the moment he decided to kill the baby. Your POV & analysis is so spot on it's like you were there in the recording booth as Jorge was crafting this musical maybe you're the prophet in real life lol
I'm sure others have commented already but Ody has a motif from Horse & the infant/Just a Man that gets changed up in Monster so definitely keep an ear out for that! Especially how Ody's guitar changes to match the tone of his character thru each song he's in
I hope once your done with Epic you'll take the time to check out some of the cut songs that couldn't be in the musical some of them give really good backstory too
And this musical is my favorite too I'm not kidding when I say it changed my life & I'm forever grateful for Jorge introducing so many of us, new & old, to Odysseus the man who's odyssey truly was the birth of epic tales we all love today
Definitely will check out your books! And congratulations on your debut!!! 🫶
39:49 I adore gigi's Monster, also her monster design shows up in her Just a Man when Ody glances in the mirror!
Still funny when ppl think his monster form to be Athena.
The prophet definitly made a point counter towards what Ody said when he was asleep : " But I'm the same, still the same" and here the prophet comes:" well someone is comming back from it but not the man that left." loved that from the first time hearing it.
I feel like youd appreciate this from a writing standpoint:
Everytime danger is near or present, a "there is danger" theme will always play in the music
love the fact that you picked up on the significant casting choice for Ody's mom, even if you didn't know that that was Jorge's mom voicing her. definitely very significant, and raw vocals from her.❤
other people have said it already but Jorge’s words bear repeating.
i am the monster
rawr rawr rawr
9:12 it is actually his mom singing (as in Jorge), it does really make it feel more authentic and I got so sad when I found out 😭
Cheating is the absolute opposite of Odysseues's character. One of the few Greek heroes (or even just named beings) that actually value their marriage and want only to he with their spouse.
This is true in Jorge's version. It's at least debatable whether the original Odysseus cheated or not. He definitely did sleep with other women
This guy is so good he predicts things more accurately than Tiresias
a small thing about monster, i truly think that he's also seeing himself back in the war and how then (when he found himself able to throw the baby off the wall simply for the fact that he COULD have been a danger to his family in the future), he did manage to keep his 600 men all alive. 10 years of war in which he was ruthless towards their enemy and none of them died.
but in the short time he has been sailing back boat -the moment he tried to leave that all behind, and not be that person; he found himself with 558 of them gone, including his closest of friends (this is even in the odyssey, btw, basically the one thing we get to know about polites is that he was ody's best and closest friend)
so in a way, sadly, it's the bias of "well when i was ruthless, i kept everyone safe, so SURELY if i go back to that it will be the same", and every single situation he has been in since then reinforcing that mentality
4:20 WOW I love how you actually picked up on that! Those are in fact their final thoughts!!
21:04 fun fact, the singing in the background is actually key moments in future events.
Basically the prophecy
I like the mom part it. It was shocking because it didn't have a setup. It made me think about people I have loved but had drifted apart from. I thought I had time and I had so much more important issues to face. I thought i had time to fix things later. Then they died. If Odysseus is feeling anything close to what I felt then having a setup wouldn't have worked. I feel Odysseus took his mother for granted to always be there.
Genuinely impressed that you immediately picked up on what Jorge has confirmed he was doing with the last thoughts of the dead, and without any prior knowledge you were able to notice that his mom was played by his mom (even if you weren't able to perfectly guess, you basically figured it out). That is impressively observant.
Remember all the stuff that the prophet said, don't forget a word. More than most, I'm sure you'll be able to identify the beats.
Without spoiling, I cannot WAIT until you hit the Vengeance Saga.
We love! Gigi! In! This! House!
and as far as the trauma story vs love story thing...I've actually heard it speculated that the original Odyssey was intended to be symbolic of, essentially, what we know as PTSD - sometimes it takes you longer than it should to really, truly, fully come back from the war. It's an interesting theory, at least.
The thing is, Epic: The Musical and the original Odyssey absolutely *are* a love story, however, most Greek tales of love are rife with challenges, and many end in tragedy.
This is a Greek love story... but it is also about the horrors of war and how it changes someone, through the lens of mythical monsters, fate and the intervention of the divine, and so much more.
It is a love story, but also a massive tragedy... yet the ending (which I won't spoil) does show the theme that such traumas can shape but not erase what was before, and that such trauma can be eased if there is still something to live for after a war or other massive event such as that.
It runs through so many of the stages of grief, of rise and fall, but that human determination to keep going, full speed ahead, is what makes humanity reach beyond the mundane and become legends in their own tales. It teaches that everyone is a survivor of their own past, regardless of how harsh or light it may have been, and everyone should have empathy for whatever caused someone to harden their hearts, and to try to ease those burdens, not add further to them.
This one is my favorite saga, between the emotions, Tiresias's song foreshadowing the whole rest of Epic, and Odysseus beginning his evolution into the monster this world has made him mirroring him to all those monsters he faced. I just love that and ironically it's the one saga with the least song yet it portrays SO MUCH
Wanted to say once again you are my favorite Epic reactor
The levels of media literacy you have to so quickly understand the themes, characters etc its amazing
Ive been listening to this musical for months and I still get surprised by layers of this I hadnt realized until you verbalized
I'm extremely curious on your thoughts in the next sagas 'cause I have conflicts with them and maybe I could understand through you better why that is
8:37 fun fact, Jorge’s mom voiced Odyssey’s mom
Im so glad you catch up to the infant thing!! That also explains why he didn’t kill the cyclops
Plus Polites dying makes him so traumatized. He is so guilty with the infant and Polites (plus his men) so he adapt Polites “last wish” to him, he is also so tired of killing so yeah if the infant didn’t happened this wouldn’t have happened!! Love this musical sm
My favorite thing about epic is how in every video so far you’ve found a new favorite- it just keeps building on itself and getting better
This is once more, why I call this a masterpiece. Because if the musical or the animatics can be able to make you cry or it hits you somehow, then buddy you have made something impactful, it's just aghhh, cause shedding some tears is not something easy or wasteful, i believe, so once again WELL DONE 👏 👏 👏 😭
you actually fully understanding of odysseus as monster is the thing that makes your reaction series such an incredible breath of fresh air so few people have actually grasped this self deception and this construction of trauma he wears as armor i cannot wait for you to see the final song.
I don't think it's that few people catch it, I think that everyone cathches it in its due time, it's only that it's a transformation in the musical, Odysseus *didn't* start being the monster, didn't start being ruthless, everything that happens in the musical and what he's lived before leads him to become the monster, all so he can return to his wife and son safely and see them again, and so he can protect them, because they are the most important people in his life and his main objective, in the end his only true objective
fun fact! The mother of Odysseus is voiced by the actual mother of Jorge! (voice of Odysseus and the one who made this musical)
Also without spoiling anything. Ody wanting to return his family is very literal. He's not trying to chase some illusion of control or the image of a happy life.
He just wants to see them and be with them. It's very face value in that respect.
Yeah he probably thinks he'll feel better but bottom line he wants to be with his family.
Obligatory fun fact that Ody's mother is voiced by Jorge's mom
Hey man, I don't know if you'll read this but you have become one of my favorite react channels for the musical. Your analysis opening up new realizations for me, so much care and thought put into it, and your ramblings of your analysis are so interesting to listen to. Not to mention you are incredibly nice and supportive of the artists here. I appreciate each new video and hearing your thoughts and observations, and I can't wait to see future videos even outside of epic!!
Oh thank you so much!!
When i saw this video i was like "I swear i just saw him start this a couple days ago. How has he gone through all of act 1 already"
God bless daily uploads I love watching EPIC content this fast
9:00 "I think there may be some significance in the casting". It's Jorge's mother singing. The fact you picked up something was happening there is really impressive
11:10 the reason it hits Ody so hard to see his mom is that his mom was still alive when he left Ithaca, he’s literally realizing at that moment that his mother died waiting for him to come home
I love how smart and perceptive this man is. Yeah, your theory of the men and everyone singing their last thoughts and moments it's true. Actually confirmed by Jorge himself. They sing what they thought and felt before dying.
Also, Ody's mom is actually Jorge's actual mom singing. He casted her to be his mom in the musical too, which is cute and also very sad.
And! Odysseus mom was alive 10 years ago. She died while he was away, so him meeting her in the underworld was how he learned she passed away. Imagine having to know your mom died waiting for you and you took too long to see her again.... Yeah, Ody has it rough.
16:12 OMG I’M APART OF MY SCHOOL PRODUCTION THIS YEAR AND WE’RE DOING NEWSIES I ALMOST JUMPED OUT OF MY SEAT WHEN YOU MENTIONED IT 😭😭 saying penelope is odysseus’s santa fe is a comparison i would’ve never thought of but you’re so right!!
Good luck on the production! I absolutely love the newsies!
This channel is the gift that just keeps on giving I swear!
Just an hour ago I found the first reaction, and I've loved the analysis you've given thus far!
I realized how closely uploaded the video were and recognized that it's very likely one would drop today or tomorrow, I was not expecting one to drop like 15 minutes after I finished the circe saga video!
Another thing to say about the inclusion of Anticlea (Odysseus's mom) is she is supposed to bring back the "Penelope is Waiting" motif that was first introduced in Full Speed Ahead. This doesnt have much payoff because this is supposed to be the setup for Penelope.
Your videos are my favorite reactions! It’s insane how perceptive you are with all of this. I have watched so many reactions and thought I KNEW every aspect of this musical but still you explain it in such a depth that enlightens me in every video! Thank you so much!
I swear you have a direct link into my brain it's so fun to hear similar character dissections as mine from someone else! Ody is one of my favorite characters to chew on, there's so much there to get into!
No Longer You was my most listened to song of 2024, mainly because I had to listen to it so much to process it. I've really been enjoying your reactions! Thanks so much for pausing, thinking, and sharing 😀
I love how the entire community wastes no time to going "ODY'S MOM IS VOICED BY JORGE'S MOM!" every time someone reacts to Underworld
16:12 the second he said if you were familiar with Newsies I just went 🎶SANTAAAAA FEEEE🎶
35:40 the two pillars when it comes to the animatic sides of the fandom are gigi and gwendy if Jorge wants a song to hit emotionally in the official animatics in the watch party live streams he calls gigi when he wants to convey the brutality of a moment or song he calls gwendy
The fact that you figured out the last words thing before the Polities and Anticlea parts is horrifying, they must have hit much harder with that information.
Jorge just released a short about the Underworld and said that Tiresias could see the Canon Odyssey!
i was so excited for you to review this Saga! This one is my favorite!
Yet again, you are really good at predicting everything!! I do urge you to pay attention to the chanting at the very end of No Longer You. It basically echos absolutely everything Tiresius (the prophet) said would happen but with even more clues on the specifics of the next sagas, who will show up in what order, etc. (Saying this because every Odyssey adaptation out there rearranges the events and skips a couple, including Epic pff)
Here is what is being chanted in the background: (I'm separating it a bit so you can skip if you'd like since for a long time that part didn't have official lyrics, so everyone was interpreting the words by ear, so if you don't wanna be spoiled for that experience, you can avoid looking at them pfff)
Siren song
Scylla throat
Mutiny
Lightning bolt
Hurt Po-sei-don
Kill all the suitors for love
Im so glad you're finally seeing how much killing the infant hurt and changed Odysseus because thats like the whole basis of the musical, like the infant was the catalyst that shook Odysseus' confidence in his own judgement and who he is as a person, and then the loss of Polites, his angel on the shoulder as you very aptly described him before, is the push over the edge into the mudslide that leads him to becoming the Monster by the end of Act 1
Note about Ody's mom. As the fleet was approaching the island, she was watching and saw the storm form when "someone" opened the bag of storms and sweep the fleet away. When this happened, she chouldn't stand waiting any more and thought they were all lost at see so prematurely self terminated.
Are you Tiresias? Good lord....I won't tell you what you're right about but....😳😳😳.
In all seriousness I find it fascinating you're focusing on his grief, it is such a unique take I haven't heard before! I personally have theories about his grief and how it relates to him as a monster....but yours is sooooo much more in depth.
You are now officially one of my favorite reactors!
"He doesn't just want to become Poseidon, he's willing to go past that"
Oh wow.
You'll need to come back to this phrase some time later.
I LOVE THESE REACTIONS i’m not good at deciphering words and stuff in music so all of these little details are making me realize how much work was put into this musical, jorge is absolutely amazing for making this and i really hope he sees these reactions, its making me realize so much more and appreciating everythjng hes done
I'mma start calling you Tiresias you're always so accurate with your predictions!!
Something I think gets overlooked a lot with friends I've talked with is how his crew echoes Odysseus' lines. It's not just Odysseus traumatized, it's all his men. And not just from his crew's deaths, but from everything. They all went through war together. Have all been away so long.
Everything that Odysseus is feeling is also felt by his crew, but Odysseus bears the extra burden of being their leader. He's responsibly not just for himself, but for all of them, and genuinely wanted to get every single one of them back. He's not dealing with his trauma, because he feels like he *can't.* If he does, he fears it will break him, and he can't break as their leader. He's not *supposed* to break, and Odysseus feels all that pressure.
He's meant to be the pillar his men rely on, but is so concerned presenting himself as reliable, he pushes them away as he crumbles piece by piece. Ironically becoming less and less able to be the pillar he needs to be. And every time he fails, it stabs at him, because he *does* care about them.
And I think that's part of his need for control. He knows he's losing control, not of the situation, but himself. His inability to control things stems from that lack of control in his own mental state.
At least, that's my read.
His mother's death is cannon in the odyssey, but in the scope of this musical, it's a reminder of the stakes and penalties Odysseus incurs with every delay and distraction. His journey is taking too long, he's running out of time as time is taking his loved ones further away from him. His mother's dying thoughts were of waiting for him and her plans of seeing her son again before she died which never came true, the same could happen to his wife and son. The looming threat of your loved ones not simply living without you, but DYING without you is a terrifying thought when you are trying so hard to return to them.
Appearantly, Tireseus (the prophet) cant see Odysseus standing before him, as he is seeing Past, Present and the Future at the same time, so he's also not technically answering Odysseus' questions but just narrating what he is seeing
DAMN!! WHEN WILL THOSE NAT 20'2 WILL STOP! Keep it up man! love your contents!
I love your reactions/analasys 😊 and i’m filled with joy every time you react to a gigi animatic as she is my absolute favourite animator! ❤
8:59 There is! Ody's mom is played by Jorge's mom! Just to add to the trauma!
37:36 i actually interpreted this less as him shedding the philosophy (though now that seems like the obvious interpretation) and more as him, again, using the idea of penelope as his anchor. the visualization of her taking away his guilt, her easing his suffering. as he "becomes the monster", he tells himself his actions are justified because he does it for her and telemachus. it's a way of surrendering his responsibility, because the responsibility hurts so much. either way, huge respect to gigi for the little details
I swear, I am always shocked at just how much you are able to pick up on and predict. It honestly makes me appreciate Epic and the sheer amount of detail that Jorge put into it even more.
Also, you are completely spoiling us with these daily uploads! I love it! Can’t wait for the next saga. And yes, Gigi is a treasure. Her animatics are incredible and that visual of Odysseus clasping hands with the monster and the way it goes into him hit me so hard the first time I saw it.
28:34 Odysseus is telling himself he's got to stop asking himself these questions and stop feeling guilt. (But you're right that in doing so and feeling that guilt it shows he's not one, even if he tells himself that.) But he wants to make himself a monster if that is what it takes to get home. - Which is made more clear as the song goes on.
This is so much fun to watch! The voice of Ody’s mom is actually Jorge’s mom.
Also this is something that happens in the original story
She dies after seeing the storm from (storm) believe he is already dead.
I've never been more excited to see a react to the underworld saga! It's one of my favorites and I can't wait to see your input!
Been watching since the first video and subscribed on the second! I just want to say that this series has been a breath of fresh air as someone who’s been following Epic since the Cyclops Saga and watching reactors pretty much since that point. I think what makes this series *work* is that you put the whole saga in one video, and that paired with the depth of analysis you do is extremely effective. I cannot imagine it working out the same way if the sagas were split up between multiple videos. The flow is great and the coherence of your thoughts (immediate thoughts no less!) is exactly what the fandom needs at this time, with the whole concept musical finally being released. I haven’t seen any other creator tackle the meat of this narrative quite like this before, and I think the musical as a whole benefits from this type of analysis as it pulls all the sagas (something a lot of us were experiencing over the course of literal months/years) together as a singular story rather than separate installments. This got really long but thank you for your work!!
I was waiting for this! This is where the musical takes the hardest shift and honestly its so damn good! Im so glad you're enjoying this~
I was literally just thinking about when you would post the underworld 😭😭
honestly Anticlea's part in The Underworld got me sobbing because I related to Odysseus too much there. That gut-punch sudden realization that your mother is just... gone. And you didn't even get to say goodbye.
Also would like to add an important note about Penelope. She's the daughter of a Spartan King. Just to keep in mind about what kind of "idealized vision" she'd have of her dear husband