"You don't sleeve your games? No I have 7 children!" It's by far the biggest laugh of the whole convention. Tom being such a PG rated family orientated figure to allude to something so scandalous was just so hilarious.
The beauty of the joke is it hits on so many levels. I watched the next 20 seconds at .25 speed because the reactions of every member was processing the joke at each of the levels.
RUclips board game videos like this one have been good for me, because I realized I had some really toxic behaviors, and was being more of a gatekeeper of the hobby than I realized. I know these are for fun and in jest, but there are lessons to be learned from them. I have been working on being less of a snooty board gamer. It's been hard, but it is worth the effort.
Yeah, the "that's not complex" one hit pretty home for me. It's not that I do that specifically. It's that I'll try to teach a game to people and try assuring them of how complex it is. I try to tell them "Don't worry, it's not too complex. It'll make sense after you play some rounds." but it always gets taken as "Nah, this is an easy game!" and I end up making people feel worse like I'm insulting their intelligence. I just need to get out of the habit of saying things aren't that bad and just start saying something like "Yeah, it's complex, but it might grow on you! ...and if not, that's fine. Everyone has their preferences."
What a lovely closing sentence from Tom! Make board games a better place, encourage new players (don't destroy them) and respect individual opinions about games ♥
Been watching and listening to The Dice Tower for years, and Tom's sleeving joke was the funniest thing I've ever heard him say, whether he originally meant the double entendre or not.
One thing I really appreciate about Final girl by VRG is that the name of the character is on the underside of the base of the mini. It's sooo useful. No questions. No guide needed I understand it was a slightly greater expense, but that should be the standard.
I totally agree about the 'pointles' stretch goals. Give me upgraded components. You don't have linen finish cards - give me linen finish cards. Give me metal coins instead of cardboard ones. Make a board that's gonna have a load of cubes on it dual layered. Ok, I can understand about the more RPG-esque ones having a soundtrack but I want that to be the half a million stretch goal whereby you've already upgraded everything that you reasonably can.
Zee's pick about campaign games. Bothered me at first, because I love campaign games! Then I thought about it, and I think the more honest answer is that I love the idea of campaign games. In 10 years of playing hobby board games, I've never gotten a group together consistently enough to finish a campaign, ever.
Agreed - I'd rather it be a tie than something arbitrary. But I am happy if there's a tie breaker that makes sense within the game (ie: money, resources, number of contracts completed, etc.). Though to be fair, I get the bigger kick out of finding out the game was close, not on who actually won or lost it.
@@bricelory9534 I do like an interesting tie breaker. For instance when a game with limited actions/turns states that the tied player with the fewest remaining resources breaks ties it makes a lot of sense as that person was clearly more efficient with their actions/turns.
Yes, yes, a hundred times, yes! Sharing a well-won victory is a delicious, special moment in gaming. To tell me that I won just because I was wise enough to collect a little more money is just sad.
I mostly agree. I don't want something that has absolutely nothing to do with the game decide things. At least one wargame literally has you roll a die for victory on a tie. At that point, what difference does it make? I think Mike's point was more like "design your game so you don't HAVE ties", which I also agree with
I think Tom’s message of making the hobby a more welcoming place is much needed. I think there’s a lot of negativity in the board game community (on BGG, on Reddit, on Instagram) with “heavy gamers” looking down on people. People don’t like to admit it, but it’s there. They want to gatekeep and keep people out of their hobby, and it’s not cool. The Dice Tower is an antidote to that, and that’s why I love these folks.
Excellent!! Never realised what a board game nerd I was until I completely agreed PASSIONATELY with what you all said. How many times did I say, "Yes! Thank you!" when you called these things out. And then to end with the roasting of gaming groups 🤣🤣🤣🤣 So good!!
I love how angry the bad rulebook thing makes Tom. It's like that other list where they mentioned the guy who didn't pay attention to the teach and then says "you never said that", and Tom said "I want to take the rulebook and feed it to them".
I agree. There was a rash of games late 70's early 80's where the rules were on 1 or 2 sheets of COLORED paper, and printed in black and white. Any kind of picture, you couldn't tell what it was.
My god, I had not laughed this hard in such a long time!! Please do more of these lists in front of crowds, it really changes the vibe :D Thank you! ^.^
40:06 - Zee's example with the video game industry releasing an unfinished product, _knowing_ it isn't finished, justifying that they can still release it (on time or earlier) because they can patch it at a later date is so spot on; it's lazy, irresponsible, and--quite frankly--a slap in the face to their consumers.
Inserts don't frustrate me because almost always I immediately throw them away and just use bags, etc. Exception being game trayz-style ones where things are actually organized and *STAY* organized.
As a sleever, I'm fine with what Tom said. My only bug bear is that games which spend money on a proper insert all too often don't make the card wells just a bit wider and deeper to account for the 10% of us who do sleeve! Like Zee said, there's a lot of space down there! You can make 'em bigger and no body loses!
@@Subangelis I'm with Milla :) And I'm not talking about a basic insert. I'm taking about ones where they actually have put some effort into making it good. Of the people that care for that, a large enough percentage sleeve to make it worth taking their other habit into account. Otherwise they're still forced to buy a custom insert which costs half as much as the game again.
I really appreciate that you were able to upload this. Audio is fine for a live event. Hearing the audience really adds to the viewing/listening experience.
Bravo Tom. I always say the obsessive sleevers are a cult. There are literally threads on BGG of people asking for the card count/sizes for games that haven’t even hit Kickstarter yet. This is a mental illness.
I somewhat agree with Mike's stretch goals, some of them are so mundane. How about this for a true stretch goal; Save money on the game, so if we reach $250,000, get a $5 rebate on the game. being able to pay less for a game instead of getting a different version of card would be way better.
I'd pay the extra 2 bucks if they'd punch and pack them in the factory. They would save on shipping weight , and I would have a headstart organizing the box.
One of my biggest pet peeve‘s is when the rulebook says the resources are unlimited and if you should run out use a substitute. How about just put some more in because you play tested this enough to feel like you should mention that because you Obviously know it’s a possibility!
Eh, this has never bothered me...I don't want to have to pay for enough components just for statistical outliers. Give me enough for normal play, and keep costs down by not putting in superfluous bits.
I don't recall ever having an issue with running out of resources in a game that actually mentions this. It is also helpful for games that use 5x or 3x markers. If there aren't enough resources provided, the game almost never mentions it.
Generally when this is an issue it's at extreme player counts or certain uncommon strategies. And I'm generally surprised when it actually does happen.
4:30 You can often remove stickers from boxes by rubbing it with a damp washcloth (note: damp, not soaking wet). Work slowly and gently to weaken the paper and glue. They will come off without damaging the box itself. Edit: I understand and sympathize with the problem punching pieces out. I think some designers (or whoever) expect you to use an exacto knife or something...
Make sure you punch the correct way to minimise crap punch job. Punch from the cut side to the uncut side. If you go the other way the bit that will rip will always be on the token instead of (hopefully) ripping on the token.
Agreed about online dissing. Its okay if you dont like it, or do like it. Not every game is for every person. I never want my kid to be afraid to try something just because the masses dont enjoy it.
#1 for me as far negative aspects of the hobby, will forever be kickstarter exclusives. “Oh here’s a new game, that will be the talk of the town and looks amazing, but 80% of the good content is behind exclusivity Kickstarter nonsense, and you will never get it unless you pay out the nose for it now!” But Tom I must hand it to you on your 1.2: Lacerda Fans…100% this! Bravo Tom, Bravo.
There are two types of kickstarter exclusives: bloated afterthoughts that do nothing but slow the game down and make it more confusing; and crucial content that unless you cave into the FOMO and back it you'll never get anything resembling a complete experience if it goes to retail.
It is clear who are the natural funny guys within DT. The way Zee and Mike were riffing and playing off the public was so brilliant. Comedy genius and actually hard to do because you need to listen carefully to what is said and react instantly. And delivering it with a straight face as well.
I especially agree about anti-app people and the "solo extremists." Although I would expand "solo extremists" to people who want every game to be playable by any player count. I've seen kickstarters for solo only games where there are people in the comments complaining that there's no multi-player variant, which is just as annoying.
Thanks for uploading this video, it was fun to watch! In response to Tom's number 4 about inserts, I always wonder why games don't come with a little instructon sheet to explain how to pack the game back into the box. I'm looking at you Coloma! I'm surprised there aren't videos online about taking games and showing how to put them back in the box. There are plenty of unboxings, how about some back-in-the-boxings 😃
Nice list as usual :) i wonder if there is no better option for audio. They all use a microphone, however what we hear seems to be a room mic with all the respective issues like echo etc. Couldn't you record the team's mics directly? Currently it's like scanning a page, save as PDF, print again, scan again and then discribute it :D
Strong disagree with Mike here. Score tracks that go around the edge of the board do NOT work fine. The score markers are always getting bumped around when you're actually placing the pieces on the board. They would probably go on my Top 5 list. Doesn't mean they should be confusing either, but I'm am so over score tracks that run around the board I'm trying to play on.
Well somebody went to Chick-fil-a! I like them too but with all the food options in Vegas? Related to Zee's #3 - card or tile holders that are just shy of being deep enough! 😡 So two or three cards are floaters!
The one that’s so frustrating to me these days is game boxes that don’t have the name of the game written horizontally on any side of the box. I don’t want to store you vertically, why isn’t there one side that has it written horizontally?
I have one game where the title isn't written at all on the side of the box. Can't even tilt my head to see the title. Thank goodness that isn't common.
It's even funnier when you realise Tom is describing himself in most of the list (i.e. Replace Tichu with Puerto Rico, Replace anti-Marvel with anti-Zombie, replace Cult of the Future with Cult of the New. And people who defend bad art in games - Tom is the number one culprit for this, half of the games on his "Back From the Dead" list made my eyes bleed!). It's nice to see an occasional rant from him though - this is something Sam Healey would have done.
@@stevewithington1787his point about Tichu was the they invite you to play, beat you and then blame you for losing and I don’t see Tom ever doing that. The people and groups that Tom lists display gate-keeper behaviour and that is the exact opposite of what Tom is like, so I really don’t see Tom being in any of these lists.
Here are some of mine in no order: 1. Colored game pieces that are all bright boring primary colors and black. It works for a few games, but not for every single one. It's probably a cost issue, but I'd love some more interesting colors of game pieces. We're not playing Sorry here. 2. Cards that are hard to shuffle. The best cards I've ever experienced are the ones in Grand Austria Hotel, and they make that experience so much more palatable. They're thin but sturdy, and shuffle like butter. They totally spoiled me and I wish every game had them. It also, by the way, has interesting game piece colors. 3. Folding game boards that are near-impossible to flatten when unfolded. My light OCD goes crazy with these things, and I feel like I might break them if I unbend them too hard. Is it that hard to make a flat game board? Maybe, but we've also been to the moon. 4. Kickstarter games with a lot of hype but they take forever to arrive because they get stuck on a boat from China or something, and then they suck and make me never want to give my money to anyone ever again. 5. Box tops that are so tight you need a blowtorch to get them off. I understand the need for good tolerances, but we're making board games, not quantum computers. 6. An excessive amount of plastic wrapping. It's always fun to open a new game, but when everything is wrapped in plastic I feel like I'm contributing to the future death of a whale. 7. Putting absolutely, criminally unrealistic game times on the box. Those times are for Olympians. I personally double the high range of the game time on the box to know what I'm getting into. 8. Cartoon box art. It's so rare that a game company takes adults seriously with their art. I'm trying to play a good game, not go back to high school. 9. Game money that is not in 1, 5, and 10 increments. I bought that awesome metal money online so I didn't have to play with cardboard money, but your 1, 3, 7, 11 increments ruin this and are only good for SETI. 10. Big expansions that totally change the experience of the base game that made you want to get the expansion in the first place. I don't trust expansions anymore, but I think small expansions can be fun.
I don't believe that anyone has actually played a whole game of Campaign for North Africa. I know someone who tried and they gave up after a cat related counter incident.
The hate that the Yis got on that WM review was ludicrous. I own the game. I sought out a copy and paid more than I really should have for it, because I enjoy all of Lacerda's games (except Escape Plan, which is impenetrable). Every one of their negative points about the game was 100% valid, and remains so. There's a thread on BGG where Vital got a little bit too defensive -- but that's his game, and of course he feels defensive about his game. YOU don't have to be.
I was super critical of their review or Mercado de Lisboa and tried to make it clear my issue wasn’t their bad score but the review just wasn’t very good. I even tried to provide reasons I believed that to be true. I don’t think they liked that comment and probably wrote it off as “Lacerda fan hate”. On BGG i saw their review of WM and while I still disagreed with their opinion, I defended the review and agree it was unfair for people to attack them with all kinds of endless accusations. The point of reviews is to provide an INFORMED opinion that others can watch and then make up their own mind, good or bad. Not everyone will like every game no matter how big or acclaimed or popular. But I suspect Tom and much of Dice Tower are not Lacerda fans period, and so they are taking the complaints way harder than they probably would otherwise. I’m sure they take all kinds of crap all the time and don’t care because they have diverse views. But it seems like with Lacerda they only have Yi to review than and so he takes an unbalanced amount of hits when he doesn’t like it.
Yes, please, stop the campaign only! If you're going to have a campaign MODE in your game also make it so that people can dip in and out of it - a 4P game can be played by 8 different people over the course of the campaign because well every other week Jo and James aren't free and on the third Wednesday of the month Jane's busy, and one week someone was ill. Provided that isn't a problem I am all for it. Also, make it so that you can play mission 12 as your first mission if you so desire, just tell me what kind of upgrades I should get/set my character/etc to.
Chris' Number One is one that really resonates with me. Categorizing games by anything other than their mechanical genre just feels wrong. If you want to tell me whether or not a game is Worker Placement, that's fine. But don't tell me a game is or isn't "heavy". That word has a different meaning to everyone. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses for what's easy/hard or light/heavy. The ONLY exception I make to that is that I will also call games "gateway" games. Which (for me) is games that are appropriate to introduce someone to with minimal board game experience of any complexity. Some gateway games are purely gateway games to me (I don't play them with my usual play groups at all). For me, this includes Ticket to Ride. It's a great game, but it doesn't have the kinds of depth that my group looks for. For a group that isn't "as into heavy games", it could be a weekly play. On the flip side, a gateway game can also be something that you love to play even after you use it to get people more involved. For me, Azul falls into that category. Despite it's simplicity, the need to see what other players are doing makes it *just* deep enough to keep me interested. However, in both cases, it is a great game as an introduction - and for the right group, it continues to remain a great game. Neither game is heavy (I think, by anyone's definition), yet both are incredibly good games. Which I think gets at the other part of Chris' point. Many people treat 'heavy' as 'good'. If a game isn't heavy, it can't be a top 20 game. Just, NO. Light games are some of the best games out there, when they provide satisfying mechanics and competition. Like Azul.
I don’t get the BGG one. The image was a gamer reporting from Kickstarter the reason the designers didn’t add a player aid to the final game. Is the complaint that the designers rely on BGG as a repository of info to explain their game?
Believe it or not, I really like shared victory at the end of a game. Since I often play with my wife, it's nice to feel like we are equal if we encounter a tie.
My #1: Different rules or skipped rules for the first round. It makes learning the game so much harder for new players. Especially when the skipped rules has an easy work around. For example, when I teach Robinson Crusoe, I just put the Wreckage card on top of the event deck and play round 1 like any other....
Zee’s #3 got me. Sometimes you get inserts that fit the cards perfectly when they’re in shrink, but the cards sit over the well once you’ve opened and used them. Infuriating.
I would say I somewhat fall into two of the ten groups Tom calls out here, but I aim to be positive and inviting in things rather than gatekeepy and stuff. Any holier-than-thou groups bother me, so this is a great sub-list for that reason.
I strongly disagree with Mike's #5. I dislike most tiebreakers, they usually feel like an afterthought that you don't even know about until the game is already over. If two people both win, let them both win! Shared victories all the way. If my group's game ends in a tie, we usually won't even look up the tiebreaker. An exception to this is something like Quest for El Dorado, where the tiebreaker is baked right into the game design, and is actually a part of the decision making as you're playing.
I’m with Mike and Zee about the campaign only games. Honestly I think that’s some companies trying to deliver a “video game like” experience, and I don’t want that. I don’t want to pay for a game where I’ll only see a fraction of the content because a lot of it is at the end of the campaign. Let me pick the scenario to play and have the campaign as an option.
Tom, I do feel attacked. I was getting ready to play a solo game of On Mars, wishing I had a copy of Blood on the Clocktower, and thinking about how much I try to avoid board game apps and Marvel games in general. I am hurt, disappointed, and will be forwarding my counselling bills to The Dice Tower.
That's a fantastic list, Tom's number 1 top 10 list was an amazing finale (and I think Tom meant the sleever gag the way we heard it... though it did still make him blush)! I suspect I may come off as a 'solo extremist' at times... well, I doubt it as I hope I give a respectful delivery of my interests. Anyway, I do look for solo in the vast majority of my games these days, simply because I really enjoy new games and just don't have an opportunity to get them to multiplayer tables. So, I play solo and that helps me categorize ones I'm happy to continue to play solo and prioritize what I get out to multiplayer when the opportunity arises. Those heavy euro purists though are complete jerks! 🤣Just kidding, as you say... 'have fun. gaming!'
I have to say as both a fan of heavy board games (including Lacerda) and a solo-gamer, that Tom was on point with his number 1. This need to look down at others and gatekeep is so cringeworthy and unnecessary and I wish it would stop.
To remove stickers, use a air dryer. It will soften the glue on the sticker and make way easier to remove. Honestly I have not ripped any stickers or boxes using this method.
"You don't sleeve your games? No I have 7 children!" It's by far the biggest laugh of the whole convention. Tom being such a PG rated family orientated figure to allude to something so scandalous was just so hilarious.
I don't know if that's what Tom was alluding to, but it is funny to think he was.
The joke had so many layers of discovery it was perfect.
@@mrskwid1 The best thing about an innuendo is that it can mean only one thing.
OMG! I totally didn't get it!! 😂😂😂 Thank you!
'Orientated' - ah you're making me UK homesick! *sniff*
Tom's top 10 at the end was amazing. I originally thought sleeving joke was about the cost of 7 kids and the cost of sleeving 😂.
I didn't get it... could you please explain it to me? I'm still thinking about the costs :-D
@@irinig.1174 starts with con, ends with dom
@@andrewellis712 oh okay, i get it now. Thank you for explaining! I was thinking to much about board games :-D
That is absolutely what it was about, the minds of others immediately took it in a different direction. 😂
The beauty of the joke is it hits on so many levels. I watched the next 20 seconds at .25 speed because the reactions of every member was processing the joke at each of the levels.
RUclips board game videos like this one have been good for me, because I realized I had some really toxic behaviors, and was being more of a gatekeeper of the hobby than I realized. I know these are for fun and in jest, but there are lessons to be learned from them. I have been working on being less of a snooty board gamer. It's been hard, but it is worth the effort.
Man that's awesome, that kind of self awareness is unfortunately rare. Kudos to you!
Yeah, the "that's not complex" one hit pretty home for me. It's not that I do that specifically. It's that I'll try to teach a game to people and try assuring them of how complex it is. I try to tell them "Don't worry, it's not too complex. It'll make sense after you play some rounds." but it always gets taken as "Nah, this is an easy game!" and I end up making people feel worse like I'm insulting their intelligence. I just need to get out of the habit of saying things aren't that bad and just start saying something like "Yeah, it's complex, but it might grow on you! ...and if not, that's fine. Everyone has their preferences."
Never call anyone a "NOOB".
With half a voice and a full sense of humor, Mr. Vasel brought the house down with an epic #1. Love it and all the rest too!
What a lovely closing sentence from Tom! Make board games a better place, encourage new players (don't destroy them) and respect individual opinions about games ♥
I like the negative lists. They are always entertaining and fun to watch.
Tom's number 1.6 was one of the funniest moment in Dice Tower history. I'm still crying from laughter.
"In Generia, everybody quells" -Zee 😂
Been watching and listening to The Dice Tower for years, and Tom's sleeving joke was the funniest thing I've ever heard him say, whether he originally meant the double entendre or not.
One thing I really appreciate about Final girl by VRG is that the name of the character is on the underside of the base of the mini. It's sooo useful. No questions. No guide needed
I understand it was a slightly greater expense, but that should be the standard.
I have to look, but I think the birds and the zombies are like that too. 😆
I loved that moment where Chris is (I am assuming) is saying to Camilla "I don't think he meant it that way."
I totally agree about the 'pointles' stretch goals. Give me upgraded components. You don't have linen finish cards - give me linen finish cards. Give me metal coins instead of cardboard ones. Make a board that's gonna have a load of cubes on it dual layered. Ok, I can understand about the more RPG-esque ones having a soundtrack but I want that to be the half a million stretch goal whereby you've already upgraded everything that you reasonably can.
I agree, but I would love a soundtrack for Final Girl where you don't have to pay a subscription to this other company.
Zee's pick about campaign games. Bothered me at first, because I love campaign games!
Then I thought about it, and I think the more honest answer is that I love the idea of campaign games.
In 10 years of playing hobby board games, I've never gotten a group together consistently enough to finish a campaign, ever.
Eyes bigger than your timetable.
I am the exact opposite of Mike's #5.
If it ends in a tie, let to be a tie! Don't have some random tiebreaker that arbitrarily picks a winner.
Bare knuckle boxing or bust I say!
Agreed - I'd rather it be a tie than something arbitrary. But I am happy if there's a tie breaker that makes sense within the game (ie: money, resources, number of contracts completed, etc.).
Though to be fair, I get the bigger kick out of finding out the game was close, not on who actually won or lost it.
@@bricelory9534 I do like an interesting tie breaker. For instance when a game with limited actions/turns states that the tied player with the fewest remaining resources breaks ties it makes a lot of sense as that person was clearly more efficient with their actions/turns.
Yes, yes, a hundred times, yes! Sharing a well-won victory is a delicious, special moment in gaming. To tell me that I won just because I was wise enough to collect a little more money is just sad.
I mostly agree. I don't want something that has absolutely nothing to do with the game decide things. At least one wargame literally has you roll a die for victory on a tie. At that point, what difference does it make? I think Mike's point was more like "design your game so you don't HAVE ties", which I also agree with
I think Tom’s message of making the hobby a more welcoming place is much needed. I think there’s a lot of negativity in the board game community (on BGG, on Reddit, on Instagram) with “heavy gamers” looking down on people. People don’t like to admit it, but it’s there. They want to gatekeep and keep people out of their hobby, and it’s not cool.
The Dice Tower is an antidote to that, and that’s why I love these folks.
Excellent!! Never realised what a board game nerd I was until I completely agreed PASSIONATELY with what you all said. How many times did I say, "Yes! Thank you!" when you called these things out. And then to end with the roasting of gaming groups 🤣🤣🤣🤣 So good!!
👍
I love how angry the bad rulebook thing makes Tom. It's like that other list where they mentioned the guy who didn't pay attention to the teach and then says "you never said that", and Tom said "I want to take the rulebook and feed it to them".
I agree. There was a rash of games late 70's early 80's where the rules were on 1 or 2 sheets of COLORED paper, and printed in black and white. Any kind of picture, you couldn't tell what it was.
Actual literal tears of laughter. This has absolutely brightened my day in ways you can't imagine.
Also, a thread on BGG *does not* replace an officially released and versioned FAQ document for your game! (PDF or TXT file on the internet)
Yes, make the hobby a more welcoming place! Tom is so right.
My god, I had not laughed this hard in such a long time!! Please do more of these lists in front of crowds, it really changes the vibe :D
Thank you! ^.^
40:06 - Zee's example with the video game industry releasing an unfinished product, _knowing_ it isn't finished, justifying that they can still release it (on time or earlier) because they can patch it at a later date is so spot on; it's lazy, irresponsible, and--quite frankly--a slap in the face to their consumers.
Way to close it out Tom! This was such a fun video.
Thanks Chris Yi, and all for a great top 5!
Lessons learned: we should be gentle and kind to one another, and help bring new people to the hobby.
Inserts don't frustrate me because almost always I immediately throw them away and just use bags, etc. Exception being game trayz-style ones where things are actually organized and *STAY* organized.
As a sleever, I'm fine with what Tom said. My only bug bear is that games which spend money on a proper insert all too often don't make the card wells just a bit wider and deeper to account for the 10% of us who do sleeve! Like Zee said, there's a lot of space down there! You can make 'em bigger and no body loses!
Tom complained about you, too. 48:33
@@Subangelis I'm with Milla :)
And I'm not talking about a basic insert. I'm taking about ones where they actually have put some effort into making it good. Of the people that care for that, a large enough percentage sleeve to make it worth taking their other habit into account. Otherwise they're still forced to buy a custom insert which costs half as much as the game again.
I really appreciate that you were able to upload this. Audio is fine for a live event. Hearing the audience really adds to the viewing/listening experience.
I'm a sleever...but as Yoda says, "once you start down the sleeve path, forever will it dominate your destiny"...
Bravo Tom. I always say the obsessive sleevers are a cult. There are literally threads on BGG of people asking for the card count/sizes for games that haven’t even hit Kickstarter yet. This is a mental illness.
Wow, this one had me literally in tears from laughter. Awesome top 5!
Such panels should be mandatory lecture for board game publishers!
Omg that sleevers comment! I was in a packed train, completely caught off guard in hysterics, hilarious 😂
I somewhat agree with Mike's stretch goals, some of them are so mundane. How about this for a true stretch goal; Save money on the game, so if we reach $250,000, get a $5 rebate on the game. being able to pay less for a game instead of getting a different version of card would be way better.
48:52 "Oh, you don't sleeve your game?"
"NO, I have 7 children"
For future generations to find the funniest Dice Tower moment in history.
Always great chemistry between everyone. Great job!
Camilla: “I would happily pay an extra $2 to know my tokens won’t rip”
Asmodee: “I’m listening…”
I'd pay the extra 2 bucks if they'd punch and pack them in the factory. They would save on shipping weight , and I would have a headstart organizing the box.
One of my biggest pet peeve‘s is when the rulebook says the resources are unlimited and if you should run out use a substitute. How about just put some more in because you play tested this enough to feel like you should mention that because you Obviously know it’s a possibility!
Eh, this has never bothered me...I don't want to have to pay for enough components just for statistical outliers. Give me enough for normal play, and keep costs down by not putting in superfluous bits.
I don't recall ever having an issue with running out of resources in a game that actually mentions this. It is also helpful for games that use 5x or 3x markers. If there aren't enough resources provided, the game almost never mentions it.
Generally when this is an issue it's at extreme player counts or certain uncommon strategies. And I'm generally surprised when it actually does happen.
It's just a safety clause to go with the word "unlimited". How often do you actually run out of resources in an average game?
This is one of the funniest and most entertaining DT videos I've seen in a long time. 😂😂😂
4:30 You can often remove stickers from boxes by rubbing it with a damp washcloth (note: damp, not soaking wet). Work slowly and gently to weaken the paper and glue. They will come off without damaging the box itself.
Edit: I understand and sympathize with the problem punching pieces out. I think some designers (or whoever) expect you to use an exacto knife or something...
Or you can use a hair dryer and then it'll come off pretty easily.
100% on Camilla's #4! A tile/patch in my copy of Patchwork ripped like this and I think of it each time I pull out the game. :)
Make sure you punch the correct way to minimise crap punch job. Punch from the cut side to the uncut side. If you go the other way the bit that will rip will always be on the token instead of (hopefully) ripping on the token.
Toms rant on the annoying groups is not only so accurate but it may be the funniest thing they've put out in a long time, that was gold!! 😂😂😂😂
Agreed about online dissing. Its okay if you dont like it, or do like it. Not every game is for every person. I never want my kid to be afraid to try something just because the masses dont enjoy it.
The most fun I've had watching a Dice Tower video EVER! Great job!
#1 for me as far negative aspects of the hobby, will forever be kickstarter exclusives. “Oh here’s a new game, that will be the talk of the town and looks amazing, but 80% of the good content is behind exclusivity Kickstarter nonsense, and you will never get it unless you pay out the nose for it now!”
But Tom I must hand it to you on your 1.2: Lacerda Fans…100% this! Bravo Tom, Bravo.
There are two types of kickstarter exclusives: bloated afterthoughts that do nothing but slow the game down and make it more confusing; and crucial content that unless you cave into the FOMO and back it you'll never get anything resembling a complete experience if it goes to retail.
@@ironwolf56 Most definitely the latter. Unique sculpts, "sundropped" minis, rare artwork etc. is all fine, it's the FOMO effect you stated above.
Everyone's laughing about Tom's sleeving joke but I'm just amazed at how accurate Tom's description was of Tichu groups 😆
It is clear who are the natural funny guys within DT. The way Zee and Mike were riffing and playing off the public was so brilliant. Comedy genius and actually hard to do because you need to listen carefully to what is said and react instantly. And delivering it with a straight face as well.
And in one single slide, Chris Yi rockets to the top of the coolness list... RATT
You could also go with the Byrds - To Every Thing, Round, Round, Round.
@@MarcGacy HA HA! I love it...
Or even Total Eclipse of the Heart - "Round a turn, bright eyes..."
how bout a serious one: companies way understating their KS campaign goals just so they can see "funded 600% in 13 seconds!"
Makes zero sense 😂
This list deserves more than the limit of 1 like per RUclips user.
I especially agree about anti-app people and the "solo extremists." Although I would expand "solo extremists" to people who want every game to be playable by any player count. I've seen kickstarters for solo only games where there are people in the comments complaining that there's no multi-player variant, which is just as annoying.
Yep, I agree
Thanks for uploading this video, it was fun to watch! In response to Tom's number 4 about inserts, I always wonder why games don't come with a little instructon sheet to explain how to pack the game back into the box. I'm looking at you Coloma! I'm surprised there aren't videos online about taking games and showing how to put them back in the box. There are plenty of unboxings, how about some back-in-the-boxings 😃
I love the ones that do.
Nice list as usual :)
i wonder if there is no better option for audio. They all use a microphone, however what we hear seems to be a room mic with all the respective issues like echo etc. Couldn't you record the team's mics directly? Currently it's like scanning a page, save as PDF, print again, scan again and then discribute it :D
On the insert topic, any insert with a HUGE row of coins or something on their side in a trough. Getting them in there is such a PAIN.
Awesome show once again. Loved the top 10 list within the top 5 list! Call the hobby downers out Tom!
"I have 7 children" ..somewhere I am hearing Sam Healey say " He went there!"
I was sad that I missed this when I was there. I had too much voodoo steak right before it. Thanks for uploading the recording :)
Strong disagree with Mike here. Score tracks that go around the edge of the board do NOT work fine. The score markers are always getting bumped around when you're actually placing the pieces on the board. They would probably go on my Top 5 list.
Doesn't mean they should be confusing either, but I'm am so over score tracks that run around the board I'm trying to play on.
Well somebody went to Chick-fil-a! I like them too but with all the food options in Vegas?
Related to Zee's #3 - card or tile holders that are just shy of being deep enough! 😡 So two or three cards are floaters!
The one that’s so frustrating to me these days is game boxes that don’t have the name of the game written horizontally on any side of the box. I don’t want to store you vertically, why isn’t there one side that has it written horizontally?
I have one game where the title isn't written at all on the side of the box. Can't even tilt my head to see the title. Thank goodness that isn't common.
@@winterzee I believe Parks is this way. Sleeping Gods as well.
I think Mike's disappointed dad energy with external scoreboards was my favorite part of this.
For future viewers, when Camilla said she hated BGG, the BGG server was down for “upgrades” with her axe.
So that is why I could not get on it earlier today I really want to look something up.
Tom being a king for like 10 minutes straight with that nr 1 list
For #1, Tom was in rare form! awesome! I cackled.
It's even funnier when you realise Tom is describing himself in most of the list (i.e. Replace Tichu with Puerto Rico, Replace anti-Marvel with anti-Zombie, replace Cult of the Future with Cult of the New. And people who defend bad art in games - Tom is the number one culprit for this, half of the games on his "Back From the Dead" list made my eyes bleed!). It's nice to see an occasional rant from him though - this is something Sam Healey would have done.
@@stevewithington1787his point about Tichu was the they invite you to play, beat you and then blame you for losing and I don’t see Tom ever doing that.
The people and groups that Tom lists display gate-keeper behaviour and that is the exact opposite of what Tom is like, so I really don’t see Tom being in any of these lists.
@@marks6928 Tom's entire list is him gate keeping.
My top 1 thru 5: Unpainted freaking grey minis!!!
What made me sad is that Zee never got that hug from Tom 😞
The best part was seeing Mike's and Zee's confused faces after hearing Tom's sleeve joke.
I love how centered that Mountain Dew is lol.
“No, I have 7 children” was the funniest moment of all time watching the Dice Tower. Huge applause for Tom 👏 hahaha
Here are some of mine in no order:
1. Colored game pieces that are all bright boring primary colors and black. It works for a few games, but not for every single one. It's probably a cost issue, but I'd love some more interesting colors of game pieces. We're not playing Sorry here.
2. Cards that are hard to shuffle. The best cards I've ever experienced are the ones in Grand Austria Hotel, and they make that experience so much more palatable. They're thin but sturdy, and shuffle like butter. They totally spoiled me and I wish every game had them. It also, by the way, has interesting game piece colors.
3. Folding game boards that are near-impossible to flatten when unfolded. My light OCD goes crazy with these things, and I feel like I might break them if I unbend them too hard. Is it that hard to make a flat game board? Maybe, but we've also been to the moon.
4. Kickstarter games with a lot of hype but they take forever to arrive because they get stuck on a boat from China or something, and then they suck and make me never want to give my money to anyone ever again.
5. Box tops that are so tight you need a blowtorch to get them off. I understand the need for good tolerances, but we're making board games, not quantum computers.
6. An excessive amount of plastic wrapping. It's always fun to open a new game, but when everything is wrapped in plastic I feel like I'm contributing to the future death of a whale.
7. Putting absolutely, criminally unrealistic game times on the box. Those times are for Olympians. I personally double the high range of the game time on the box to know what I'm getting into.
8. Cartoon box art. It's so rare that a game company takes adults seriously with their art. I'm trying to play a good game, not go back to high school.
9. Game money that is not in 1, 5, and 10 increments. I bought that awesome metal money online so I didn't have to play with cardboard money, but your 1, 3, 7, 11 increments ruin this and are only good for SETI.
10. Big expansions that totally change the experience of the base game that made you want to get the expansion in the first place. I don't trust expansions anymore, but I think small expansions can be fun.
I want to play the Genera game now... and if no one publishes it, I hope that they all go out of business!
I can't agree more to Mike's #3 Fancy Scoring Tracks! Kramer track is an industry standard for good reasons.
Yep! Those zigzaggy ones are the worst.
I don't believe that anyone has actually played a whole game of Campaign for North Africa. I know someone who tried and they gave up after a cat related counter incident.
18:53 Camilla looks pissed about something she saw on her phone. LOL!
At Zee that Ultra Fiesta Mango is way to good :) Also this was an awsome top 5, thx for the laughter. Watched that final entery a few times.
The hate that the Yis got on that WM review was ludicrous. I own the game. I sought out a copy and paid more than I really should have for it, because I enjoy all of Lacerda's games (except Escape Plan, which is impenetrable). Every one of their negative points about the game was 100% valid, and remains so.
There's a thread on BGG where Vital got a little bit too defensive -- but that's his game, and of course he feels defensive about his game. YOU don't have to be.
I was super critical of their review or Mercado de Lisboa and tried to make it clear my issue wasn’t their bad score but the review just wasn’t very good. I even tried to provide reasons I believed that to be true. I don’t think they liked that comment and probably wrote it off as “Lacerda fan hate”. On BGG i saw their review of WM and while I still disagreed with their opinion, I defended the review and agree it was unfair for people to attack them with all kinds of endless accusations. The point of reviews is to provide an INFORMED opinion that others can watch and then make up their own mind, good or bad. Not everyone will like every game no matter how big or acclaimed or popular. But I suspect Tom and much of Dice Tower are not Lacerda fans period, and so they are taking the complaints way harder than they probably would otherwise. I’m sure they take all kinds of crap all the time and don’t care because they have diverse views. But it seems like with Lacerda they only have Yi to review than and so he takes an unbalanced amount of hits when he doesn’t like it.
After Tom’s joke regarding card sleeping, I fully intend on buying tickets to next year’s Dice Tower West. 😂
This was just wonderful , especially Toms number 1 (all of it)
Yes, please, stop the campaign only! If you're going to have a campaign MODE in your game also make it so that people can dip in and out of it - a 4P game can be played by 8 different people over the course of the campaign because well every other week Jo and James aren't free and on the third Wednesday of the month Jane's busy, and one week someone was ill. Provided that isn't a problem I am all for it. Also, make it so that you can play mission 12 as your first mission if you so desire, just tell me what kind of upgrades I should get/set my character/etc to.
Chris' Number One is one that really resonates with me. Categorizing games by anything other than their mechanical genre just feels wrong. If you want to tell me whether or not a game is Worker Placement, that's fine. But don't tell me a game is or isn't "heavy". That word has a different meaning to everyone. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses for what's easy/hard or light/heavy.
The ONLY exception I make to that is that I will also call games "gateway" games. Which (for me) is games that are appropriate to introduce someone to with minimal board game experience of any complexity. Some gateway games are purely gateway games to me (I don't play them with my usual play groups at all). For me, this includes Ticket to Ride. It's a great game, but it doesn't have the kinds of depth that my group looks for. For a group that isn't "as into heavy games", it could be a weekly play. On the flip side, a gateway game can also be something that you love to play even after you use it to get people more involved. For me, Azul falls into that category. Despite it's simplicity, the need to see what other players are doing makes it *just* deep enough to keep me interested.
However, in both cases, it is a great game as an introduction - and for the right group, it continues to remain a great game. Neither game is heavy (I think, by anyone's definition), yet both are incredibly good games. Which I think gets at the other part of Chris' point. Many people treat 'heavy' as 'good'. If a game isn't heavy, it can't be a top 20 game. Just, NO. Light games are some of the best games out there, when they provide satisfying mechanics and competition. Like Azul.
I don’t get the BGG one. The image was a gamer reporting from Kickstarter the reason the designers didn’t add a player aid to the final game. Is the complaint that the designers rely on BGG as a repository of info to explain their game?
A marvelous hidden Top 10 list!
Believe it or not, I really like shared victory at the end of a game. Since I often play with my wife, it's nice to feel like we are equal if we encounter a tie.
Tom's top ten was iconic
In particular in a Top 5 😅
My #1: Different rules or skipped rules for the first round. It makes learning the game so much harder for new players. Especially when the skipped rules has an easy work around. For example, when I teach Robinson Crusoe, I just put the Wreckage card on top of the event deck and play round 1 like any other....
Zee’s #3 got me. Sometimes you get inserts that fit the cards perfectly when they’re in shrink, but the cards sit over the well once you’ve opened and used them. Infuriating.
I am with you on the box sleeves, Mike!
Great fun and great message to all gamers, thanks!
I would say I somewhat fall into two of the ten groups Tom calls out here, but I aim to be positive and inviting in things rather than gatekeepy and stuff. Any holier-than-thou groups bother me, so this is a great sub-list for that reason.
but Chris #4 is giving you two years to save up the $650 you'll need to get everything in the kickstarter
I strongly disagree with Mike's #5. I dislike most tiebreakers, they usually feel like an afterthought that you don't even know about until the game is already over. If two people both win, let them both win! Shared victories all the way. If my group's game ends in a tie, we usually won't even look up the tiebreaker.
An exception to this is something like Quest for El Dorado, where the tiebreaker is baked right into the game design, and is actually a part of the decision making as you're playing.
I’m with Mike and Zee about the campaign only games. Honestly I think that’s some companies trying to deliver a “video game like” experience, and I don’t want that. I don’t want to pay for a game where I’ll only see a fraction of the content because a lot of it is at the end of the campaign. Let me pick the scenario to play and have the campaign as an option.
Dude, the US presidents in Zombicide were amazing. AMAZING! Did you see Queen Elizabeth with a minigun? I almost backed it based just on that!!
Tom, I do feel attacked. I was getting ready to play a solo game of On Mars, wishing I had a copy of Blood on the Clocktower, and thinking about how much I try to avoid board game apps and Marvel games in general. I am hurt, disappointed, and will be forwarding my counselling bills to The Dice Tower.
That's a fantastic list, Tom's number 1 top 10 list was an amazing finale (and I think Tom meant the sleever gag the way we heard it... though it did still make him blush)! I suspect I may come off as a 'solo extremist' at times... well, I doubt it as I hope I give a respectful delivery of my interests. Anyway, I do look for solo in the vast majority of my games these days, simply because I really enjoy new games and just don't have an opportunity to get them to multiplayer tables. So, I play solo and that helps me categorize ones I'm happy to continue to play solo and prioritize what I get out to multiplayer when the opportunity arises. Those heavy euro purists though are complete jerks! 🤣Just kidding, as you say... 'have fun. gaming!'
I have to say as both a fan of heavy board games (including Lacerda) and a solo-gamer, that Tom was on point with his number 1. This need to look down at others and gatekeep is so cringeworthy and unnecessary and I wish it would stop.
29:43 Rococo is missing there! But I agree with your picks Chris.
That was funny.... Thanks for sharing!
Alone on the Blood Tower (the solo variant!) ^_^
That sleeve joke is the funniest thing I've ever heard Tom say XD
Gamers: Bad inserts are infuriating!
Fantasy Flight: Hold my beer.
To remove stickers, use a air dryer. It will soften the glue on the sticker and make way easier to remove. Honestly I have not ripped any stickers or boxes using this method.