As an Active duty firearm enthusiast, I watched the pistol competition closely hoping they went with the Glock. But since being issued the M18 and going through some training courses with it I have to say I like it. I still prefer my personal Glock, but I trust the M18 and like it way more than the old M9.
dig way back and find a youtube USMC GySgt talking about CID (bunch of clowns) and HMX1 adopting the G19. gave it a mod name M007. WHO let that slide through? MARSOC and SOCOM picked G19. But they are shooters. not gun toters.
I agree is all about training. I’m retired from active LE duty 33 yrs. I started with a SW Mdl 28, 357. After some of our guys KIA they finally wen5 to Semi Auto in 40 cal Beretta then to Sig 226 , 229 because of Beretta cracked frames. I use to hate Glocks it’s a younger persons gun cause you readily and quickly accepted it, and training with it. Called them Tupperware guns, As a Boomer Didn’t trust them no decocker etc. I shoot with my Active duty son who swears by them. I reluctantly was given one. I’m changed. I own three. ITS ALL ABOUT TRAINING. I have my own range shoot 4K a month so I guess I’m a shooter not a toter. My concealed carry is Sig 365 x with A Holoson x2 optic. “PTSF an OG shooter”. PEACE THRU SUPERIOUR FIREPOWER. LIKE MY TRAINING SGT ALWAYS SAID……YOU TAKE CARE OF IT AND IT WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU…..CARRY ON GUN BROTHER. VIVA SECOND AMMENDMENT FU…NEWSOM AND BIDEN….
@@xusmico187 They went Glock because they've been using Glocks since the late 90s, it's what they are familiar with. USMC is phasing out their M007s (Glocks) in favor of M18s and yes, that includes MARSOC which is part of SOCOM. Do your homework.
I own both. I shoot the Glock better when point shooting out of a quick draw (no sights use). I just point it a bit more naturally, and it seems to be less snappy. Still, I never had a failure with my p320, and it is a very reliable duty pistol. The problem in the competition was the Glock did not meet the requirements (modularity Chief among them), and Sig offered a price that greatly undercut Glocks offering. Both are excellent guns.
My T/O weapon during my 22 years in the Marines, was the M9 Berretta. I loved the M9. Carried it Afghanistan, Iraq, other dangerous countries, and of course when I had to stand “duty.” I bought a M18, and a M17, when they first came out. I got a great deal at the Marine Corps Exchange, Marine Corps Base Quantico. They are solid weapons. I am going to by Berretta because I’m nostalgic 🇺🇸
I bought the sig FCU with thumb safety and built it myself. I bought a wilson combat grip (carry size), norsso slide w/rmr cut, trijicon hd xr sights, flat face apex trigger kit and polished all the internals. I added a acss redical and a olight valkyrie mini (light only). My only gripe is the bore axis is 1/4 in to high.
I was a 1LT in building 4 in 1984 when they were testing pistols to replace the 1911. Not one person liked the Baretta, but we heard that the USA wanted to sell the Italians a shit ton of F16s, so they came to an agreement....
I’ve got well over 10K+ rounds thru my competition P320’s ( lost count actually ) Various configurations , slides, modules etc. Reliability and performance has been generally excellent for my purposes on the range. But , if I carried one , I think having a version with a safety would be my choice .
I own an M17 Sig but having served 20 years in the Army and having been issued an M9 and having qualified and having fired thousands of rounds through M9 Beretta s I personally like the old M9 Beretta and apparently numerous Seal team and SF units liked the old war horse pretty good also. I was an M1 tank Armor Crewman , a recon scout then then later I cross trained and become a logistics NCO where I got mos qualified to be a unit Armored in both armor units and Special Forces. I served most of my 20 yrs in U S Cavalry and Armor units but I did serve 1 year in a special Forces unit. The M9s held up well and very little maintenance had to be done above unit level. I often got good reports from higher echelon maintenance folks at the CSMS level maintenance shops where all the maintenance and repairs were done that was above unit level maintenance. The biggest problem with any of them we ever had to deal with was soldier s trying to use them for hammers or loosing parts when disassembled and from rough abuse throwing them around, lack of cleaning and basic pmcs maintenance. I was also a Deputy Sheriff and retired having used and carried numerous glock model handguns and having qualified and actually been involved in shootouts and real combat engagements and I never carried any light on my weapon. Our generation of combat training led us to believe a flashlight in a firefight of actual confrontation will get you killed ! I guess to each his own its your life and do what you feel comfortable with. I like all three weapons the M9, the M17 and the Glock. iI always shot high scores with Berettas ,and Glocks on active duty and I'm sure if we had of been issued M18s back then I could have done well with an M18. I do love the modular capability and the chases and ability to swap grip and frame o easily. Time will tell but I will never knock the capabilities if any Beretta M9 or Glock because thry have a very good track record over the years being used by real world soldiers and law inforcement professionsls on duty in real action . The Sig has yet to be proven in other ways than just you tube video range sessions. Good luck to all sig M18/M17 owners including myself !!!! I enjoyed the video and look forward to seeing more in the future. After watching this video I might even break down and buy me a light and a red dot optic for my M17.
SEALs were one of the first to drop Berettas and go P226 in the 1980s due to Beretta slide separations resulting in injury, what are you talking about ? 😂
I love my Sig M17. I never understood why people have a problem with safeties on a handgun. I was born in the late 1950's and grew up in the 1911 era, so safety never bothered me. I've used the safety just as you demonstrated, thumbed it up on push out.
I've no problem with a safety on a handgun but the safety design of the slide mounted safety of the Beretta (and metal frame Smith & Wesson autos) is HORRIBLE. It's somewhere between completely awkward to manipulate to impossible to manipulate depending on if you can even reach the dumb thing with a normal firing grip.
Great breakdown and thorough explanation of the benefits, I've got to say, I liked the Beretta APX, a lot, but this system is growing on me. Thanks for everything!
@@WDLC1911 The "final phase of testing" was - if you read the RFP - only required of the *final pistol chosen* , as it was a production validation test. Yes, the Army *could* have chosen to subject up to three different offerings to the PVT, but that would have meant the Armybwouod have had to offer production contracts to each of those companies, because the PVT was only for *contracted production pistols* , not limited test samples. *Any* argument predicated on claiming the Army cut testing short because they didn't do a production validation on a pistol that wasn't awarded a production contest is BS. The language to allow for PVT on multiple offerings was only present in case the Army got to the point where they were one downselect away, but couldn't find any difference in the offerings. The PVT was intended as a primary production validation to ensure test pistols weren't cherry picked compared to series production, and, *if necessary* , as a tie-breaker for final downselect to a single offering. The tie breaker was not necessary, and the PVT on the selected winner is not a competitive test - it is literally a QA test as is done for any piece of gear the military buys serial production on. In the absence of the need to conduct a PVT as a tie breaker, the Army has *the entire 10nyear contract period* to do the PVT... and will likely conduct it on a rolling basis for the entirety of the contract period (because *that's how you are supposed to use PVTs* , to ensure they don't cheap on on things, say, 5 or 6 years down the road.) They did, in fact, test *individual* test samples in the competition to 12,500 rounds *per gun* (which is far in excess of the round counts required in the XM9 program - no individual gun im the XM9 test program was fired more than 10,000 times. IIRC, no individual pistol was subjected to even 10,000 rounds in the long slog to adopt the M1911, either.) And Sig made an offering of $100 million cheaper than Glock did, with pistols that performed *very* similarly, and Sig more closely adhering to the RFP than Glock did. Frankly, the only odd thing about the MHS program is they announced the final winner almost a year early. Which probably *was* somewhat political - they likely wanted to announce the winner and sign the contract *before* the inauguration of a guy who had campaigned on slashing "wasteful programs" (which would have, in this case, wasted *even more money* and wasted more time, given how long the Army had been futzing about with the M9 replacement program). So I can see why the Army might decide that, since they had the data they needed to select a final winner a year early, they might as well announce it before a change in administrations sank the whole program with *nothing* to show for it.
I am just a retired Fed, so my opinion comes from that perspective. I've worn three military uniforms, but was never an "operator." After 43 years of teaching firearms, I don't have a light or laser on any of my guns, nor do I use red-dot optics on handguns. Fixed sights are faster inside 15 yards, optics are more accurate over 15 yards. In my current civilian world, the odds of engaging beyond 15 yards are minimal. By and large, in the civilian world, NOBODY gets weapons-mounted light training; they substitute what they see on TV for training (Hollywood isn't there to train anyone; it's there to sell advertising and to put rear-ends into theater seats). As a result, the light comes on, and stays on, telling the bad guy where to shoot, PLUS at a minimum you are pointing a loaded firearm at everyone present! Lights are to be used only as momentry flashes, the shorter the better, and then you MOVE! Check out the RUclips videos from my friend Mas Ayoob and Ken Hackathorn on these subjects at the Wilson Combat channel. Hammer USAF SSgt; US Army CW4/SrAviator; INS/ICE/CBP, ret.
@@stephandelaney4097 Normally, a Springfield Armory Hellcat, or a CZ-75 Compact (NOT the PCR compact). They are both loaded with 9mm Federal 9BPLE 115gr +P+ rounds. I also carry a Nightstick 500 lumen hand-held light. Hammer
Well Ken hackathorn is a Fudd boomer who was torched by more credible instructors over his "you don't need red dots" science proves otherwise. I spent 2 of my years as a Marine pmi in Hawaii. I know a little about shooting. As far as shootings occur close, tell that to Eli Dickens. The reality is, is that we live in a world of potential riots at anytime. Back in the george Floyd days, there could be 15 people coming at you, and that's where red dots shine. Being able to threat focus due to multiple actors is exactly why everyone should have red dots. Ken hackathorn should find a cave , grab his wheel guns, and go live out his days being a boomer by himself.
A most informative video Karl. Very interesting to learn some military history there. I agree 100% on your point for having and using a safety. Great video, thanks!
Another well done video and it’s appreciated. I may be bias but I’ve always been a fan of an external safety. At the end of the day I can simply double check for safety visually. It just comes second nature and muscle memory works well in operating an external safety. I’m not convinced operating a safety slows one’s actions. Thanks for the video. 🇺🇸
As an old soldier i remember going from 1911 to the M9 . Even then i thought it was a strange move to go with an exposed hammer when my brother as a LEO had a glock . Obviously going to 9mm and more rounds made sense but the m9 wasnt a really big change from the 1911 . Glad they are moving on . Great video Karl and TR . RLTW
I have an M18 and bought my Son an M17 for his 21st. We have alot of handguns out of the polymers I only like my PDP better. We have easily 4000 rounds between the 2 and not one failure. Both are very accurate and easy to shoot.
I swapped tbe grip module on my M18 for the Wilson one. Subtle difference, but it fits my hands better - not that the OEM grip was bad, just the Wilson was better for *me* (YMMV). My only real gripe with the M17/M18 is i think they could have spent half an hour more on designing the safety. It's *just* a skosh smaller than it really should be (talking about maybe 1mm at most added to the width and maybe 2mm to the length of the levers - and length is probably more important than the width), and they could *maybe* have radiused the bottom edge just a skosh (nothing you cant fix in 15 minutes with a stone, but then you'll need to refinish it.) Note that this is something that is ripe for an aftermarket drop in upgrade, if safety equipped P320s end up with enough commercial market success to warrant accessory companies to bother tooling up for that. All in all, fewer "fixes" (parts count, cost, and skill needed to swap) than are considered "normal" for Glocks (how many serious users are running stock sights and trigger groups), 1911s (heh, entire major manufacturing companies were created to tune up 1911s with what are now commonly available on "economy" COTS 1911s), etc. Was the M17/M18 the very best option the DoD could have gotten? Nope. Was it the best option in the XM17/XM18 trials? You could argue either way, although I'd tend to say the correct gun was chosen from what was offered. Did the DoD get a great gun that will serve just fine? Damn straight - it's a solid piece to begin with, and frankly, wars (nor even battles) are not won or lost based on one side having a handgun 10% better than the other guy. The US Army would probably end up over all with the same success rate if they had issued "cop .38s" or Makarovs. (True, SOF units would end up buying better handguns, but honestly, the expense would still be a rounding error in the Army budget - the US taxpayer would likely spend more money on selecting the next shade of PT uniforms versus SOCOM going out and buying all their guys the best DeathBlaster 2000 on the market. 😂 )
Thank you for this honest informative video. In all honesty, I would not consider owning a Sig solely based on the price tag of their magazines. Then I had to say, what the hell, and had to get one in 9mm. And then I had to get their 320C in 45 ACP. I love them both. For a holster I went with the Werkz, OWB one that is designed to fit the Olight. Great products.
I can't wait for the day that Mec-Gar begins to sell "aftermarket" Sig P320 mags. I say aftermarket in quotations because they manufacture the "factory" mags for Sig.
my love for beretta stems from the amount of trigger time I have on it. I love my glock and sigs because of what they are. My M18 is still in it's "break in period" but man do I ever love it. The safety doesn't bother me because I'm used to 1911's and the M-9/92FS
While the handgun passed the standard drop tests,it was discovered that if dropped on the rear sight at a particular angle a negligent discharge could be induced. They concluded that due to the mass of the trigger/trigger bar, the inertia of the drop at that angle caused the trigger to discharge. They subsequently redesigned the trigger/trigger bar,removing mass & decreasing the weight of trigger/trigger bar & fixed the problem. There's a video at Forgotten Weapons where Ian details the problems Sig had w/it's initial releases of that model
The subtext of what was stated "I have had no issues with the M-18" is that the sample size is 1. There are both situations where an ND could definitely have occurred due to mishandling, but also situations where the person's hands were nowhere near the firearm when it went off.
I just bought an m18 and my only complaints are there aren’t many options that give you a rear sight with the adapter plate for an optic. I’m a firm believer in buis. The toughest optics have shit the bed when people needed them most and having backup sights doesn’t hurt anything. Tango down makes an RMR plate with a dovetail so you can choose your iron sights. Bobros makes a plate with a built in rear sight but it’s kinda shitty imo. People have broken them and there’s no dots on it. Those are the only two products i found that allow rear sights on the m18 with a dot. I also am not a fan of the external safety but I get why it’s there. I have a Gumby thumb on my right hand from an old injury and the safety positioning kinda makes using the slide release a bit annoying sometimes. Skill issue, i know. I like the slide release rather than racking the slide every time. It’s quicker to get back on the gun and it’s there for a reason. Luckily I can just buy an extended slide release to mitigate my issue. Overall I like the sig a lot more than my gen3 g19. It’s just a better pistol out of the box and we’re extremely limited on options where I live. No gen 5 mos for us unless you want to pay a ridiculous premium to buy from an LEO that wants to make a few hundred extra bucks or have immediate family in a free state willing to buy one and sell to you.
i carried a M9 in Afghanistan as a side arm ..hated it ... but i do have a freedom chassis 🤫 i have a sig320 jsd fcu sittin in the closet for over a year im glad you made this video i think ill finally build my 320 just can't decide on M17 or just the standard 320 ..
I don’t think snow would impact the barrel opening since it would instantly melt. Dirt, grime, mud, and other debris, yes! Got your point though and it’s as heavy as a tank. Great review!
Not all the snow instantly melts after the first shot. After a couple shots it’s not an issue, but weather it will cycle or not after the first round is not a guarantee.
The Beretta hate is wild, the only feeding issues you’d have is with limp wristing, nothing is getting stuck in the hammer since it sits flush on the slide, the slides are solid, it’s a VERY good system to this day. We got the M17/18 because people are desperate to get “new” technology
The slides are solid? Did you really say that out loud? I was not exaggerating when I said I (and most of the other students at SFARTEAUC) had their slides crack. Don't want to argue, to each his own; glad you like it. We switched to Glocks in 2006 and never went back. Thanks for watching, TR.
Too much sig fanboy comments and pure Beretta Hatred in this video and in comments for me to take this seriously. The sig m18 is a fine handgun nothing amazing but its fine. Too bad so many feel the need to trash a great proven and loved firearm thinking it will make the m18 or the p320 look better. Sig 320s which include the m18 are overpriced in my opinion. They gave the military one hell of a deal knowing that consumers would pay absorbent price for this platform making up more enough for the lack of profit on the military contract. But to each their own.
@@TacticalRifleman I wonder if those Phrobis slides would have made a difference? Much heavier built than the regular M9 slide. Shame they disappeared as fast as they appeared back in the day.
I qualified expert with the M1911 and M16. I was trained that the safety goes off when your sights are on the target. I still believe that was correct. I now shoot in competition and it doesn’t slow me down. Training, training, training.
I love the P320 Carry (M18 predecessor). My biggest beef with Sig is magazines cost too much. I used to measure every pistol against the 1911 - obviously a 9mm polymer frame will be lighter with softer recoil. The 92/M9 has a great grip and became a good sidearm. I think the M17/18 would be better with a Wilson Combat grip module instead of the slicker Sig module.
I got m17 with dpp and x300 about 15 months ago I have shot around 4k through it, it has been dead nuts reliable and after about 1k the trigger really broke in its got be around 3lbs I like the manuel saftey as a 1911/2011 guy no problems never heard anybody compare the manuel saftey of a handgun to a rifle but now I got a good argument for my anti saftey buddy's. Shot mine out to 150yd beside my staccatos sig is just as accurate , I am going to have to get another soon waiting to see if I find one that'll take sigs new m17 optic.
Got my M18 (and extra M17 slide) about a year ago. I love it! I'm an old Fudd, and in 90-91 with the 101 we were issued 1911s, and I do like the manual safety and manual of arms. I've about 4000 rounds through my M18 now, and only 3 malfunctions. One I believe primer related, and one other probably me shooting support hand. Shoot at 50 yards just fine. I do prefer the Wilson Combat grip as I have smaller hands, and it's more "1911ish." With the 365 it's become a daily carry. I too LOVE the Primary Arms Vulcan reticle. It also helps tremendously with my astigmatism and declining eyesight! Did I mention "Old Fudd!" HA lol. Great review and I agree!
Nice light on your pistol. Reducing the light lense getting blacked out and reducing getting pushed out of battery. Smart. TLR gets blacked out on everything.
Lowest bidder... the beretta served me fine for 21 years. Do I think it prob should be replaced... yes, but I still wouldn't feel unsafe with a modern 1911.
I taught myself to shoot with a 1911A1 years ago. I have carried a Glock 23 as a duty weapon for 15+ years. I'm used to no safety, but I still prefer a manual safety of the 1911A1 type. The thumb down safety to me is faster and more ergonomic than the push up type. I've owned some of the thumb up type, but I haven't carried one of an EDC. Just not my cup of tea.
I’m sure you know that the optics cut for the M17/M18 was required to have the dpp footprint. As would the 19x if it was selected so you can’t really fault the pistol for the military requirement
Glock’s submission for the contract did have a manual safety. Would be interesting if they’d bring it to market, I don’t think I’d personally get one but would like to see how it would do
The manual safety vs 'holster is your safety' argument is about as contentious as it gets. I have a strong preference for safeties on firearms. To me it's a philosophy of use issue. If the bad guy ( aka not me) grapples for my firearm or, heaven forbid, there are multiple combatants and they get ahold of my gun I will hopefully have a moment to get it back or take cover before they realize why the bang switch isn't working. I also go to a lot of places where firearms are prohibited, such as hospitals, and have to store it/ reholster it often. If I just kept it holstered all the time it may not be as much of an issue but I consider every holstering an opportunity for old Murphy's law to creep in and end up with a nd.
I like the Sig much better than the Beretta or the Glock. My nephew was in SF and his M4 went down in a firefight and he had to transition to his handgun. It took an entire magazine to drop the enemy. After he got back to his base he drew a 1911. He said it never took more than two shots with the .45 to take down an insurgent and he never went back to the 9mm.
I'm more of a 1911 fan, but I recently bought an M17 used a few months ago and so far I really do enjoy it. The only issue I have is that the one I bought doesn't have the manual safety on it, but it is ok. I've only fired about 100 rounds through it so far and it seems to be a very solid piece so far. Eventually I do want to throw an X300 light on it and put a Deltapoint Pro on it like everyone else does.
Thirty One of these have been “lost” at Fort Moore just recently from a secured civilian run/operated facility. Loosing 1 is bad enough but 31 wow! And the civilians leaders are still there. Wow! So keep an eye out; may come across a few for really cheap price.
The biggest reason the m18 should have a safety is because it functions much like a 1911. It uses whats called an active striker system. Meaning that the striker or hammer (a striker is just a hammer that operates as a piston rather than rotating around a hinge) meaning that the striker is under constant spring tension when a round is chambered. If the safeties fail. Or the trigger is pulled the gun will fire. This allows the p320 to have a single stage short trigger. However it is inherently unsafe in this regard. While it's drop safe and generally reliable if one were to impact the trigger accidentally it would go off. Hence the need for a manual safety. When the safety is engaged there is no way for that striker to move forward and impact the primer. This design differes greatly from a glock which had what's called a passjve striker system. The striker is not under spring tension until the trigger is pulled to the rear. Meaning the gun cannot be fired WITHOUT fully depressing the trigger. The glock platform has a 2 stage trigger. Meaning there is a first stage where the striker is brought under spring tension then the sear rides down off of the striker causing it to impact the primer. There is no way to make a glock fire without deliberately or negligently pulling the trigger. Without a manual safety the m18 is vulnerable to accidental discharges in the event of wear induced mechanical failure.
I don’t see a problem with safety, personally I have one in chamber with out my safety on… but it’s always an option.. definitely buying.. don’t know to decide m17 or m18… nonetheless, good practice with ur hand gun determines how u choose to use it
When I worked for an unnamed federal agency, we carried Sig P22X’s and just as you said the SEALs did, after we shot, we’d bring it back into our workspace while decocking, scan, and holster. If we were shooting and moving, before we left cover (after shooting) we would decock the pistol
Thanks for pointing out that manipulating the safety on the pistol is the same as manipulating the safety on the AR. Seems obvious and silly to believe otherwise now :D
Karl I love your videos . I PICK UP LOTS FROM YOU TO HELP MY STUDENTS 0:00 After my 33 yr LE career I teach student who flunk out of Range Qual from Police Academies. 95 percent never fired a gun. Issues were gun Glock 17 or Beretta too big for their hands. Sig got the message and makes s.m.l.xl. Grips that snap out for 226 and 229. TRYING TO GIVE BACK TO A CARRER I LOVED AND MISS. I CAN TELL A YOUng PERSON WHO HAS “CORDAZON” a burning heart desire to wear the BLUE . Death Before Death Watch….Night Stocker Forever……..
I was happy to ditch the Beretta for the M17 and thought it was nice to shoot and like the safari land holster system it comes with. I haven’t seen a kaboom but here about too many in Uspsa circles with the 320.
A lot of police departments demand external safeties because it makes the gun harder to operate by someone whos unfamiliar with it, meaning if a criminal steals an officers pistol the criminal wont be able to shoot it as easily and that can give the officer time to defend himself.
When you get trigger weights down to 5lb and below, it becomes really easy to fire--good for competition, but iffy for safe carry. I like the safety on my M320/M18 as well. I REALLY like the loaded chamber indicator!
I tried to get one of the Glocks from the test, that had the external safety. However, Glock USA executives said those pistols were back in a vault in Austria.
Do a reaction or counter the arguments from Small Arms Solutions regarding the Beretta 92/M9. What citation do you uave regarding State Department involvement in the JSSAP or subsequent decision making? Since you have experience in the SOF world, please put up a video about the failed JCP initiative.
I’m fairly ignorant to firearm technology and I really love how sigs shoot and feel and I love the innovation they are doing but with all the qc issues I’ve seen both in person and just reports online it’s hard for me to put my trust in their stuff right now for conceal carry or duty use. Hopefully I can get insight. Also seems suspicious they are winning every contract. Like I said I’m fairly new and ignorant to this stuff and trying to understand it better so I can make better purchasing decisions for tools I can trust my life with.
I agree Beretta was a good gun for LE in the earl6 80s . My issue Beretta 40 cal slide started to crack at 5k rounds. PD Staff listened th3n went to Sig 226, w229 40cal. Dept wo7ldnt sell it to me in retirement so my SON IS CARRYING IT ON DUTY AFTER A FACTORY REBU8LD. H3 SAYS THERE GOING TO M-18 I hope he can buy it just so his old dad can cr@ck a smile and remember those hot call days….death before day watch. NIGHT STOCKERS-FOREVER….
I was qual& issued the M9, I own, m9s &M9 a1s 92&96 vertecs and i hear a lot fake claims that get passed along as facts. I do own several P320 9-45 &10mm, great pistol also has lots of fake gossip about it. I have had zero issues with either pistol platforms. Maybe it's the person not the pistol
@@dbut5427lol no. It means exactly what I said. He doesn’t have the repetitions to have his presentation down. Hell his recoil control isn’t even that good.
@brody6504 ok, I see what you're saying. I bet he does have a solid presentation. I plan on turning off large circle, I want the chevron. If the ranging is 75% accurate. I will have to test it for a 15 vs 25.
@dbut5427 while I honestly believe Brody6504 believes what he is saying… he is missing the point of WHY the Vulcan is do valuable. If all you do is flat-range shooting and competition shooting, and you get your reps in, you will easily see your dot upon presentation and won’t need the Vulcan’s outer ring. However, as soon as you start doing realistic combat training, like shooting around barricades, vehicles, and doing urban /CQB (especially force-on-force); you’ll start having problems finding the dot. That’s because, as you lean to your side (think shooting off back under a car), gravity is hitting your arms differently and your presentation will be different. The Vulcan reticle helps you get back on track faster. Also, while pying through doorways with a pistol, you must break your normal presentation and bring the pistol in closer to your face so that you can fit through the doorway. Again, the Vulcan circle helps you keep your sights on target while staying focused on the threat. Shooters don’t have these problems while standing on a flat range on sunny days going pew pew. Again, not bashing Brody because he probably doesn’t know. When I first saw the Vulcan on paper, I thought it was a waste also. However, once I started pushing it to extremes, it always saved the day. Thanks for watching, TR
Just got a sig m18 on accident tbh. Buddy said to not get it after i mentioned it cus of gun failures from falling etc. Been looking more into it, seems theyve improved since 4 years ago?
Update: mine works like a goddamn charm super accurate great trigger pool and reset I’ll be getting a grip module upgrade pretty soon to the M1811 grip. I really like to save the option and the option to be able to slide the rack while in safety too.
Might not be made for Civ to edc but I edc a M17 until my M18 comes in…. Only reason I got the m18 over the 320 w/safety is because I wanted the mags…. The only safety I could find was the MA verso. With the 10 rnd mags…. I got the M18 for $40 more with Mil Discount….. so was worth it… and yeah the optic cut made no sense….. don’t even get me started on the nonsense decision on the footprint of the Romeo m17….. not the best buisness decision in the world
There are so many awesome handguns on the market these days it's actually more difficult to find a crappy one than an awesome one.
I’m new to polymer framed pistols and I bought an m18 specifically for the external safety. If you train with your sidearm it will never be a problem.
As an Active duty firearm enthusiast, I watched the pistol competition closely hoping they went with the Glock. But since being issued the M18 and going through some training courses with it I have to say I like it. I still prefer my personal Glock, but I trust the M18 and like it way more than the old M9.
dig way back and find a youtube USMC GySgt talking about CID (bunch of clowns) and HMX1 adopting the G19. gave it a mod name M007. WHO let that slide through? MARSOC and SOCOM picked G19. But they are shooters. not gun toters.
I agree is all about training. I’m retired from active LE duty 33 yrs. I started with a SW Mdl 28, 357. After some of our guys KIA they finally wen5 to Semi Auto in 40 cal Beretta then to Sig 226 , 229 because of Beretta cracked frames. I use to hate Glocks it’s a younger persons gun cause you readily and quickly accepted it, and training with it. Called them Tupperware guns, As a Boomer Didn’t trust them no decocker etc. I shoot with my Active duty son who swears by them. I reluctantly was given one. I’m changed. I own three. ITS ALL ABOUT TRAINING. I have my own range shoot 4K a month so I guess I’m a shooter not a toter. My concealed carry is Sig 365 x with A Holoson x2 optic. “PTSF an OG shooter”. PEACE THRU SUPERIOUR FIREPOWER. LIKE MY TRAINING SGT ALWAYS SAID……YOU TAKE CARE OF IT AND IT WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU…..CARRY ON GUN BROTHER. VIVA SECOND AMMENDMENT FU…NEWSOM AND BIDEN….
@@xusmico187 They went Glock because they've been using Glocks since the late 90s, it's what they are familiar with. USMC is phasing out their M007s (Glocks) in favor of M18s and yes, that includes MARSOC which is part of SOCOM. Do your homework.
I own both. I shoot the Glock better when point shooting out of a quick draw (no sights use). I just point it a bit more naturally, and it seems to be less snappy. Still, I never had a failure with my p320, and it is a very reliable duty pistol.
The problem in the competition was the Glock did not meet the requirements (modularity Chief among them), and Sig offered a price that greatly undercut Glocks offering. Both are excellent guns.
What about the thing firing do to slight impacts.
My T/O weapon during my 22 years in the Marines, was the M9 Berretta. I loved the M9. Carried it Afghanistan, Iraq, other dangerous countries, and of course when I had to stand “duty.” I bought a M18, and a M17, when they first came out. I got a great deal at the Marine Corps Exchange, Marine Corps Base Quantico. They are solid weapons. I am going to by Berretta because I’m nostalgic 🇺🇸
Yo, I was a combat instructor at the basic school after I got wounded and was medboarded outta Quantico. Loved it there
I bought the sig FCU with thumb safety and built it myself. I bought a wilson combat grip (carry size), norsso slide w/rmr cut, trijicon hd xr sights, flat face apex trigger kit and polished all the internals. I added a acss redical and a olight valkyrie mini (light only). My only gripe is the bore axis is 1/4 in to high.
I was a 1LT in building 4 in 1984 when they were testing pistols to replace the 1911. Not one person liked the Baretta, but we heard that the USA wanted to sell the Italians a shit ton of F16s, so they came to an agreement....
Well, you heard wrong, son. And I'm surprised that an "officer" struggles to spell "Beretta."
I’ve got well over 10K+ rounds thru my competition P320’s ( lost count actually ) Various configurations , slides, modules etc. Reliability and performance has been generally excellent for my purposes on the range. But , if I carried one , I think having a version with a safety would be my choice .
I own an M17 Sig but having served 20 years in the Army and having been issued an M9 and having qualified and having fired thousands of rounds through M9 Beretta s I personally like the old M9 Beretta and apparently numerous Seal team and SF units liked the old war horse pretty good also. I was an M1 tank Armor Crewman , a recon scout then then later I cross trained and become a logistics NCO where I got mos qualified to be a unit Armored in both armor units and Special Forces. I served most of my 20 yrs in U S Cavalry and Armor units but I did serve 1 year in a special Forces unit. The M9s held up well and very little maintenance had to be done above unit level. I often got good reports from higher echelon maintenance folks at the CSMS level maintenance shops where all the maintenance and repairs were done that was above unit level maintenance. The biggest problem with any of them we ever had to deal with was soldier s trying to use them for hammers or loosing parts when disassembled and from rough abuse throwing them around, lack of cleaning and basic pmcs maintenance. I was also a Deputy Sheriff and retired having used and carried numerous glock model handguns and having qualified and actually been involved in shootouts and real combat engagements and I never carried any light on my weapon. Our generation of combat training led us to believe a flashlight in a firefight of actual confrontation will get you killed ! I guess to each his own its your life and do what you feel comfortable with. I like all three weapons the M9, the M17 and the Glock. iI always shot high scores with Berettas ,and Glocks on active duty and I'm sure if we had of been issued M18s back then I could have done well with an M18. I do love the modular capability and the chases and ability to swap grip and frame o easily. Time will tell but I will never knock the capabilities if any Beretta M9 or Glock because thry have a very good track record over the years being used by real world soldiers and law inforcement professionsls on duty in real action . The Sig has yet to be proven in other ways than just you tube video range sessions. Good luck to all sig M18/M17 owners including myself !!!! I enjoyed the video and look forward to seeing more in the future. After watching this video I might even break down and buy me a light and a red dot optic for my M17.
SEALs were one of the first to drop Berettas and go P226 in the 1980s due to Beretta slide separations resulting in injury, what are you talking about ? 😂
I love my Sig M17.
I never understood why people have a problem with safeties on a handgun. I was born in the late 1950's and grew up in the 1911 era, so safety never bothered me.
I've used the safety just as you demonstrated, thumbed it up on push out.
My grip and safety flick is one motion taking the firearm out of the holster.
Though I also spent my early firearm days with 1911s
I edc a M17 and the only thing I needed to do was practice getting the Safety off before I presented. I've had zero problems with it
I've no problem with a safety on a handgun but the safety design of the slide mounted safety of the Beretta (and metal frame Smith & Wesson autos) is HORRIBLE. It's somewhere between completely awkward to manipulate to impossible to manipulate depending on if you can even reach the dumb thing with a normal firing grip.
Great breakdown and thorough explanation of the benefits, I've got to say, I liked the Beretta APX, a lot, but this system is growing on me. Thanks for everything!
SIG made a offer the military couldn’t refuse , the M17 & M18 are still a good side arm with options for every size hand
Not really. They never completed the final phase of testing… it would have been the 19X v the M17/M18.
Small Arms Solution has a program on this.
SIg was in bed with the brass...
@@Perkeletricksterservantofrherso is every other defense contractor.
Our tax dollars after all. 🙂
@@WDLC1911 The "final phase of testing" was - if you read the RFP - only required of the *final pistol chosen* , as it was a production validation test.
Yes, the Army *could* have chosen to subject up to three different offerings to the PVT, but that would have meant the Armybwouod have had to offer production contracts to each of those companies, because the PVT was only for *contracted production pistols* , not limited test samples. *Any* argument predicated on claiming the Army cut testing short because they didn't do a production validation on a pistol that wasn't awarded a production contest is BS.
The language to allow for PVT on multiple offerings was only present in case the Army got to the point where they were one downselect away, but couldn't find any difference in the offerings. The PVT was intended as a primary production validation to ensure test pistols weren't cherry picked compared to series production, and, *if necessary* , as a tie-breaker for final downselect to a single offering. The tie breaker was not necessary, and the PVT on the selected winner is not a competitive test - it is literally a QA test as is done for any piece of gear the military buys serial production on. In the absence of the need to conduct a PVT as a tie breaker, the Army has *the entire 10nyear contract period* to do the PVT... and will likely conduct it on a rolling basis for the entirety of the contract period (because *that's how you are supposed to use PVTs* , to ensure they don't cheap on on things, say, 5 or 6 years down the road.)
They did, in fact, test *individual* test samples in the competition to 12,500 rounds *per gun* (which is far in excess of the round counts required in the XM9 program - no individual gun im the XM9 test program was fired more than 10,000 times. IIRC, no individual pistol was subjected to even 10,000 rounds in the long slog to adopt the M1911, either.)
And Sig made an offering of $100 million cheaper than Glock did, with pistols that performed *very* similarly, and Sig more closely adhering to the RFP than Glock did.
Frankly, the only odd thing about the MHS program is they announced the final winner almost a year early. Which probably *was* somewhat political - they likely wanted to announce the winner and sign the contract *before* the inauguration of a guy who had campaigned on slashing "wasteful programs" (which would have, in this case, wasted *even more money* and wasted more time, given how long the Army had been futzing about with the M9 replacement program).
So I can see why the Army might decide that, since they had the data they needed to select a final winner a year early, they might as well announce it before a change in administrations sank the whole program with *nothing* to show for it.
I am just a retired Fed, so my opinion comes from that perspective. I've worn three military uniforms, but was never an "operator." After 43 years of teaching firearms, I don't have a light or laser on any of my guns, nor do I use red-dot optics on handguns. Fixed sights are faster inside 15 yards, optics are more accurate over 15 yards. In my current civilian world, the odds of engaging beyond 15 yards are minimal. By and large, in the civilian world, NOBODY gets weapons-mounted light training; they substitute what they see on TV for training (Hollywood isn't there to train anyone; it's there to sell advertising and to put rear-ends into theater seats). As a result, the light comes on, and stays on, telling the bad guy where to shoot, PLUS at a minimum you are pointing a loaded firearm at everyone present! Lights are to be used only as momentry flashes, the shorter the better, and then you MOVE! Check out the RUclips videos from my friend Mas Ayoob and Ken Hackathorn on these subjects at the Wilson Combat channel. Hammer USAF SSgt; US Army CW4/SrAviator; INS/ICE/CBP, ret.
What you use as side arm now ?
@@stephandelaney4097 Normally, a Springfield Armory Hellcat, or a CZ-75 Compact (NOT the PCR compact). They are both loaded with 9mm Federal 9BPLE 115gr +P+ rounds. I also carry a Nightstick 500 lumen hand-held light. Hammer
Well Ken hackathorn is a Fudd boomer who was torched by more credible instructors over his "you don't need red dots" science proves otherwise. I spent 2 of my years as a Marine pmi in Hawaii. I know a little about shooting. As far as shootings occur close, tell that to Eli Dickens. The reality is, is that we live in a world of potential riots at anytime. Back in the george Floyd days, there could be 15 people coming at you, and that's where red dots shine. Being able to threat focus due to multiple actors is exactly why everyone should have red dots. Ken hackathorn should find a cave , grab his wheel guns, and go live out his days being a boomer by himself.
A most informative video Karl. Very interesting to learn some military history there. I agree 100% on your point for having and using a safety. Great video, thanks!
Another well done video and it’s appreciated. I may be bias but I’ve always been a fan of an external safety. At the end of the day I can simply double check for safety visually. It just comes second nature and muscle memory works well in operating an external safety. I’m not convinced operating a safety slows one’s actions. Thanks for the video. 🇺🇸
Never had any problems with my M18 it has been a proven and reliable weapon
As an old soldier i remember going from 1911 to the M9 . Even then i thought it was a strange move to go with an exposed hammer when my brother as a LEO had a glock . Obviously going to 9mm and more rounds made sense but the m9 wasnt a really big change from the 1911 . Glad they are moving on . Great video Karl and TR . RLTW
I wouldn’t trade my M17, or my P320 Carry, (pretty much the M18 in black) at all. I enjoy shooting both.
I have an M18 and bought my Son an M17 for his 21st. We have alot of handguns out of the polymers I only like my PDP better. We have easily 4000 rounds between the 2 and not one failure. Both are very accurate and easy to shoot.
Thanks for sharing, TR
I swapped tbe grip module on my M18 for the Wilson one. Subtle difference, but it fits my hands better - not that the OEM grip was bad, just the Wilson was better for *me* (YMMV).
My only real gripe with the M17/M18 is i think they could have spent half an hour more on designing the safety. It's *just* a skosh smaller than it really should be (talking about maybe 1mm at most added to the width and maybe 2mm to the length of the levers - and length is probably more important than the width), and they could *maybe* have radiused the bottom edge just a skosh (nothing you cant fix in 15 minutes with a stone, but then you'll need to refinish it.) Note that this is something that is ripe for an aftermarket drop in upgrade, if safety equipped P320s end up with enough commercial market success to warrant accessory companies to bother tooling up for that.
All in all, fewer "fixes" (parts count, cost, and skill needed to swap) than are considered "normal" for Glocks (how many serious users are running stock sights and trigger groups), 1911s (heh, entire major manufacturing companies were created to tune up 1911s with what are now commonly available on "economy" COTS 1911s), etc.
Was the M17/M18 the very best option the DoD could have gotten? Nope. Was it the best option in the XM17/XM18 trials? You could argue either way, although I'd tend to say the correct gun was chosen from what was offered. Did the DoD get a great gun that will serve just fine? Damn straight - it's a solid piece to begin with, and frankly, wars (nor even battles) are not won or lost based on one side having a handgun 10% better than the other guy. The US Army would probably end up over all with the same success rate if they had issued "cop .38s" or Makarovs. (True, SOF units would end up buying better handguns, but honestly, the expense would still be a rounding error in the Army budget - the US taxpayer would likely spend more money on selecting the next shade of PT uniforms versus SOCOM going out and buying all their guys the best DeathBlaster 2000 on the market. 😂 )
The Wilson grip is the grip Sig should have shipped all their P320s with, its honestly that good.
Thank you for this honest informative video. In all honesty, I would not consider owning a Sig solely based on the price tag of their magazines. Then I had to say, what the hell, and had to get one in 9mm. And then I had to get their 320C in 45 ACP. I love them both. For a holster I went with the Werkz, OWB one that is designed to fit the Olight. Great products.
I can't wait for the day that Mec-Gar begins to sell "aftermarket" Sig P320 mags. I say aftermarket in quotations because they manufacture the "factory" mags for Sig.
Great video Karl. Your real world experience and firearm opinions are appreciated.
Thanks
my love for beretta stems from the amount of trigger time I have on it. I love my glock and sigs because of what they are. My M18 is still in it's "break in period" but man do I ever love it. The safety doesn't bother me because I'm used to 1911's and the M-9/92FS
While the handgun passed the standard drop tests,it was discovered that if dropped on the rear sight at a particular angle a negligent discharge could be induced. They concluded that due to the mass of the trigger/trigger bar, the inertia of the drop at that angle caused the trigger to discharge. They subsequently redesigned the trigger/trigger bar,removing mass & decreasing the weight of trigger/trigger bar & fixed the problem. There's a video at Forgotten Weapons where Ian details the problems Sig had w/it's initial releases of that model
M18 with a Holosun SCS 320. I am about 2000 rounds through that combo and loving it so far.
I never realized that about the safety on, safety off even though I was in SF during the M9 era, a gun that I truly learned to hate in all ways.
The subtext of what was stated "I have had no issues with the M-18" is that the sample size is 1. There are both situations where an ND could definitely have occurred due to mishandling, but also situations where the person's hands were nowhere near the firearm when it went off.
I'm about to get my m18 / California Compliant- thanks for the video
Right on
I just bought an m18 and my only complaints are there aren’t many options that give you a rear sight with the adapter plate for an optic. I’m a firm believer in buis. The toughest optics have shit the bed when people needed them most and having backup sights doesn’t hurt anything. Tango down makes an RMR plate with a dovetail so you can choose your iron sights. Bobros makes a plate with a built in rear sight but it’s kinda shitty imo. People have broken them and there’s no dots on it. Those are the only two products i found that allow rear sights on the m18 with a dot.
I also am not a fan of the external safety but I get why it’s there. I have a Gumby thumb on my right hand from an old injury and the safety positioning kinda makes using the slide release a bit annoying sometimes. Skill issue, i know.
I like the slide release rather than racking the slide every time. It’s quicker to get back on the gun and it’s there for a reason. Luckily I can just buy an extended slide release to mitigate my issue. Overall I like the sig a lot more than my gen3 g19. It’s just a better pistol out of the box and we’re extremely limited on options where I live. No gen 5 mos for us unless you want to pay a ridiculous premium to buy from an LEO that wants to make a few hundred extra bucks or have immediate family in a free state willing to buy one and sell to you.
i carried a M9 in Afghanistan as a side arm ..hated it ... but i do have a freedom chassis 🤫 i have a sig320 jsd fcu sittin in the closet for over a year im glad you made this video i think ill finally build my 320 just can't decide on M17 or just the standard 320 ..
I don’t think snow would impact the barrel opening since it would instantly melt. Dirt, grime, mud, and other debris, yes! Got your point though and it’s as heavy as a tank. Great review!
Dirty snow.
@@matthewbrandon931 - not yellow?
Not all the snow instantly melts after the first shot. After a couple shots it’s not an issue, but weather it will cycle or not after the first round is not a guarantee.
Snow won’t melt till the barrel warms
Great video. Grip lengths are the same though on M17/18
Yes they are
The Beretta hate is wild, the only feeding issues you’d have is with limp wristing, nothing is getting stuck in the hammer since it sits flush on the slide, the slides are solid, it’s a VERY good system to this day. We got the M17/18 because people are desperate to get “new” technology
The slides are solid? Did you really say that out loud? I was not exaggerating when I said I (and most of the other students at SFARTEAUC) had their slides crack. Don't want to argue, to each his own; glad you like it. We switched to Glocks in 2006 and never went back. Thanks for watching, TR.
@@TacticalRifleman probably (most likely) due to old, worn out locking blocks, to be honest.
Too much sig fanboy comments and pure Beretta Hatred in this video and in comments for me to take this seriously. The sig m18 is a fine handgun nothing amazing but its fine. Too bad so many feel the need to trash a great proven and loved firearm thinking it will make the m18 or the p320 look better. Sig 320s which include the m18 are overpriced in my opinion. They gave the military one hell of a deal knowing that consumers would pay absorbent price for this platform making up more enough for the lack of profit on the military contract. But to each their own.
@@robkoons1891, I’ll take a Glock - or a Langdon Beretta or a Wilson Combat with LTT Trigger Job.
@@TacticalRifleman I wonder if those Phrobis slides would have made a difference? Much heavier built than the regular M9 slide. Shame they disappeared as fast as they appeared back in the day.
Some might say that the M18 is twice as good as the M9 😂 Best explanation of safety use on a pistol I’ve seen, great info. Thanks!
I qualified expert with the M1911 and M16. I was trained that the safety goes off when your sights are on the target. I still believe that was correct. I now shoot in competition and it doesn’t slow me down. Training, training, training.
Agree 100%
As always, extremely thorough in your testing. Excellent report. Thank you
Thank you too!
great vid karl, i'm so blind now i could not even see the target unless it was man size . oh the joys of getting old. lol
I love the P320 Carry (M18 predecessor). My biggest beef with Sig is magazines cost too much. I used to measure every pistol against the 1911 - obviously a 9mm polymer frame will be lighter with softer recoil. The 92/M9 has a great grip and became a good sidearm. I think the M17/18 would be better with a Wilson Combat grip module instead of the slicker Sig module.
The Wilson combat grip is way better than both the original p320 grip and the p320 x-grip.
Good info, really enjoyed, thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
I got m17 with dpp and x300 about 15 months ago I have shot around 4k through it, it has been dead nuts reliable and after about 1k the trigger really
broke in its got be around 3lbs I like the manuel saftey as a 1911/2011 guy no problems never heard anybody compare the manuel saftey of a handgun to a rifle but now I got a good argument for my anti saftey buddy's. Shot mine out to 150yd beside my staccatos sig is just as accurate , I am going to have to get another soon waiting to see if I find one that'll take sigs new m17 optic.
Got my M18 (and extra M17 slide) about a year ago. I love it! I'm an old Fudd, and in 90-91 with the 101 we were issued 1911s, and I do like the manual safety and manual of arms. I've about 4000 rounds through my M18 now, and only 3 malfunctions. One I believe primer related, and one other probably me shooting support hand. Shoot at 50 yards just fine. I do prefer the Wilson Combat grip as I have smaller hands, and it's more "1911ish." With the 365 it's become a daily carry. I too LOVE the Primary Arms Vulcan reticle. It also helps tremendously with my astigmatism and declining eyesight! Did I mention "Old Fudd!" HA lol. Great review and I agree!
Thanks for sharing, TR
I carry an M18 and I love it.
Nice light on your pistol. Reducing the light lense getting blacked out and reducing getting pushed out of battery. Smart. TLR gets blacked out on everything.
Lowest bidder... the beretta served me fine for 21 years. Do I think it prob should be replaced... yes, but I still wouldn't feel unsafe with a modern 1911.
I taught myself to shoot with a 1911A1 years ago. I have carried a Glock 23 as a duty weapon for 15+ years. I'm used to no safety, but I still prefer a manual safety of the 1911A1 type. The thumb down safety to me is faster and more ergonomic than the push up type. I've owned some of the thumb up type, but I haven't carried one of an EDC. Just not my cup of tea.
Great video thanks for covering this platform
Thank you for your perspective regarding the external safety
You bet
I’m sure you know that the optics cut for the M17/M18 was required to have the dpp footprint. As would the 19x if it was selected so you can’t really fault the pistol for the military requirement
When my unit fielded the M17 the Army was paying $176 per pistol. That's the real reason why SIG beat Glock.
Yep
Glock’s submission for the contract did have a manual safety. Would be interesting if they’d bring it to market, I don’t think I’d personally get one but would like to see how it would do
I tried to get one a couple years back to test/video, but they had already been returned to Europe and locked up.
Thanks Mr Carl for all you
The M18 was adopted by the Marine Corps over the M17 - I believe.
The manual safety vs 'holster is your safety' argument is about as contentious as it gets. I have a strong preference for safeties on firearms. To me it's a philosophy of use issue. If the bad guy ( aka not me) grapples for my firearm or, heaven forbid, there are multiple combatants and they get ahold of my gun I will hopefully have a moment to get it back or take cover before they realize why the bang switch isn't working. I also go to a lot of places where firearms are prohibited, such as hospitals, and have to store it/ reholster it often. If I just kept it holstered all the time it may not be as much of an issue but I consider every holstering an opportunity for old Murphy's law to creep in and end up with a nd.
Fingers crossed surplus hits the market id like to get an old m9 for nostalgia reasons
I like the Sig much better than the Beretta or the Glock. My nephew was in SF and his M4 went down in a firefight and he had to transition to his handgun. It took an entire magazine to drop the enemy. After he got back to his base he drew a 1911. He said it never took more than two shots with the .45 to take down an insurgent and he never went back to the 9mm.
I'm more of a 1911 fan, but I recently bought an M17 used a few months ago and so far I really do enjoy it. The only issue I have is that the one I bought doesn't have the manual safety on it, but it is ok. I've only fired about 100 rounds through it so far and it seems to be a very solid piece so far. Eventually I do want to throw an X300 light on it and put a Deltapoint Pro on it like everyone else does.
The cracking of the slide has been corrected years ago
Not being able to find the dot is a lack of training issue...
Great review most informative I have seen.
Thirty One of these have been “lost” at Fort Moore just recently from a secured civilian run/operated facility. Loosing 1 is bad enough but 31 wow! And the civilians leaders are still there. Wow!
So keep an eye out; may come across a few for really cheap price.
The biggest reason the m18 should have a safety is because it functions much like a 1911. It uses whats called an active striker system. Meaning that the striker or hammer (a striker is just a hammer that operates as a piston rather than rotating around a hinge) meaning that the striker is under constant spring tension when a round is chambered. If the safeties fail. Or the trigger is pulled the gun will fire. This allows the p320 to have a single stage short trigger. However it is inherently unsafe in this regard. While it's drop safe and generally reliable if one were to impact the trigger accidentally it would go off. Hence the need for a manual safety. When the safety is engaged there is no way for that striker to move forward and impact the primer. This design differes greatly from a glock which had what's called a passjve striker system. The striker is not under spring tension until the trigger is pulled to the rear. Meaning the gun cannot be fired WITHOUT fully depressing the trigger. The glock platform has a 2 stage trigger. Meaning there is a first stage where the striker is brought under spring tension then the sear rides down off of the striker causing it to impact the primer. There is no way to make a glock fire without deliberately or negligently pulling the trigger. Without a manual safety the m18 is vulnerable to accidental discharges in the event of wear induced mechanical failure.
Agreed
I don’t see a problem with safety, personally I have one in chamber with out my safety on… but it’s always an option.. definitely buying.. don’t know to decide m17 or m18… nonetheless, good practice with ur hand gun determines how u choose to use it
Great info Karl! Thanks.
Great info, thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
I've had 6 different d
Sig p320s, really like the m18 and xc 👍never a problem...
I EDC M18, love it
I love my M18 it shoots good and has ate everything. I have put through it so far
The gun can absolutely not go off without the trigger being engaged...
Awesome video!! I just put a manual safety on my P320 compact. Its very comfortable to load and unload.
Good choice!
When I worked for an unnamed federal agency, we carried Sig P22X’s and just as you said the SEALs did, after we shot, we’d bring it back into our workspace while decocking, scan, and holster.
If we were shooting and moving, before we left cover (after shooting) we would decock the pistol
Nothing says "Cool" more than Federal emforcement power 😎🥸
Thanks for pointing out that manipulating the safety on the pistol is the same as manipulating the safety on the AR. Seems obvious and silly to believe otherwise now :D
Karl I love your videos . I PICK UP LOTS FROM YOU TO HELP MY STUDENTS 0:00 After my 33 yr LE career I teach student who flunk out of Range Qual from Police Academies. 95 percent never fired a gun. Issues were gun Glock 17 or Beretta too big for their hands. Sig got the message and makes s.m.l.xl. Grips that snap out for 226 and 229. TRYING TO GIVE BACK TO A CARRER I LOVED AND MISS. I CAN TELL A YOUng PERSON WHO HAS “CORDAZON” a burning heart desire to wear the BLUE . Death Before Death Watch….Night Stocker Forever……..
I was happy to ditch the Beretta for the M17 and thought it was nice to shoot and like the safari land holster system it comes with. I haven’t seen a kaboom but here about too many in Uspsa circles with the 320.
Yep, not a fan of the 320 without a safety
Great looking gear. Thx Karl!
Thanks for watching!
A lot of police departments demand external safeties because it makes the gun harder to operate by someone whos unfamiliar with it, meaning if a criminal steals an officers pistol the criminal wont be able to shoot it as easily and that can give the officer time to defend himself.
When you get trigger weights down to 5lb and below, it becomes really easy to fire--good for competition, but iffy for safe carry. I like the safety on my M320/M18 as well. I REALLY like the loaded chamber indicator!
Would have preferred it had a trigger safety vs thumb. I just want a Glock with a different angled grip.
Awesome assessment, agreed 1776% and definitely step forward same for me on all especially safety being required
I wish Glock sold a version with the safety lever. Great video.
I tried to get one of the Glocks from the test, that had the external safety. However, Glock USA executives said those pistols were back in a vault in Austria.
Do a reaction or counter the arguments from Small Arms Solutions regarding the Beretta 92/M9.
What citation do you uave regarding State Department involvement in the JSSAP or subsequent decision making?
Since you have experience in the SOF world, please put up a video about the failed JCP initiative.
Had an M18. Loved it, just not as much as my Glock.
Awesome video. Where did you get that aftermarket plate for that optic at?
Alan’s Arsenal
The sig rxp is one of the best carry pistols on the planet.
i edc this pistol, stippling feels like sandpaper. other than that it’s comfortable.
Full size grip with compact barrel is the way to go
I’m fairly ignorant to firearm technology and I really love how sigs shoot and feel and I love the innovation they are doing but with all the qc issues I’ve seen both in person and just reports online it’s hard for me to put my trust in their stuff right now for conceal carry or duty use. Hopefully I can get insight. Also seems suspicious they are winning every contract. Like I said I’m fairly new and ignorant to this stuff and trying to understand it better so I can make better purchasing decisions for tools I can trust my life with.
Just a small correction. But the M17 & M18 have the exact same grip
Great info thanks 👍🇺🇸
No problem
6:00 HOLD UP. Is that the coveted XM9 with the extended barrel for the KAC suppressor? How often were suppressed pistols used in USASOC?
I carried one often
I love my M 18 but I had to replace the polymer with an axg grip module.
I agree Beretta was a good gun for LE in the earl6 80s . My issue Beretta 40 cal slide started to crack at 5k rounds. PD Staff listened th3n went to Sig 226, w229 40cal. Dept wo7ldnt sell it to me in retirement so my SON IS CARRYING IT ON DUTY AFTER A FACTORY REBU8LD. H3 SAYS THERE GOING TO M-18 I hope he can buy it just so his old dad can cr@ck a smile and remember those hot call days….death before day watch. NIGHT STOCKERS-FOREVER….
I was qual& issued the M9, I own, m9s &M9 a1s 92&96 vertecs and i hear a lot fake claims that get passed along as facts. I do own several P320 9-45 &10mm, great pistol also has lots of fake gossip about it. I have had zero issues with either pistol platforms. Maybe it's the person not the pistol
I hate commercials.😒
They are fun
Love my m18
Year later and still preaching Vulcan reticle. Making believer out of me.
If he’s still preaching the reticle he isn’t doing enough repetitions.
@brody6504 means he is a believer. I am looking at getting one.
@@dbut5427lol no. It means exactly what I said. He doesn’t have the repetitions to have his presentation down. Hell his recoil control isn’t even that good.
@brody6504 ok, I see what you're saying. I bet he does have a solid presentation. I plan on turning off large circle, I want the chevron. If the ranging is 75% accurate. I will have to test it for a 15 vs 25.
@dbut5427 while I honestly believe Brody6504 believes what he is saying… he is missing the point of WHY the Vulcan is do valuable.
If all you do is flat-range shooting and competition shooting, and you get your reps in, you will easily see your dot upon presentation and won’t need the Vulcan’s outer ring.
However, as soon as you start doing realistic combat training, like shooting around barricades, vehicles, and doing urban /CQB (especially force-on-force); you’ll start having problems finding the dot. That’s because, as you lean to your side (think shooting off back under a car), gravity is hitting your arms differently and your presentation will be different. The Vulcan reticle helps you get back on track faster.
Also, while pying through doorways with a pistol, you must break your normal presentation and bring the pistol in closer to your face so that you can fit through the doorway. Again, the Vulcan circle helps you keep your sights on target while staying focused on the threat.
Shooters don’t have these problems while standing on a flat range on sunny days going pew pew.
Again, not bashing Brody because he probably doesn’t know.
When I first saw the Vulcan on paper, I thought it was a waste also. However, once I started pushing it to extremes, it always saved the day.
Thanks for watching, TR
Anyone trained on the M16/M4 should know and prefer the manual safety.
Youre the best Carl!
M18 anyday anytime ❤
You have the civilian version since you have black controls. The military have FDE controls. The Air Force runs M18 pistols.
That was in the begining. New M17/18's come with black controls.
Justin, you were so close.
Just got a sig m18 on accident tbh. Buddy said to not get it after i mentioned it cus of gun failures from falling etc. Been looking more into it, seems theyve improved since 4 years ago?
Update: mine works like a goddamn charm super accurate great trigger pool and reset I’ll be getting a grip module upgrade pretty soon to the M1811 grip. I really like to save the option and the option to be able to slide the rack while in safety too.
Might not be made for Civ to edc but I edc a M17 until my M18 comes in…. Only reason I got the m18 over the 320 w/safety is because I wanted the mags…. The only safety I could find was the MA verso. With the 10 rnd mags…. I got the M18 for $40 more with Mil Discount….. so was worth it… and yeah the optic cut made no sense….. don’t even get me started on the nonsense decision on the footprint of the Romeo m17….. not the best buisness decision in the world