This was my favorite moral quandary in DAO as a Dwarf Commoner. They know how invaluable the golems would be to helping her people but the desperation of the Dwarven people is greater now then even back then. So my DC knows that her people in the slums would be the first ones rounded up and robbed of their free will. Its basically weighing the DCs pragmatism vs their soul.
i've never sided with branka in any of my playthroughs so i never knew how golems were made... that is utterly horrific. glad i didn't side with her haha
It seems the purpose of the lyrium is to preserve the memories and personality of the dwarf (or other creature) who is encased. The process is trumatic, but ultimately the trauma ends and the golem can adapt. Shale seems to be at peace with her transformation, if only thousands of years after the fact. Red lyrium is, as you say, corrupted and blighted, anathemic to life. It grants the Red Templars a vast increase of power, but at the cost of driving them mad, in a similar fashion to the darkspawn taint, and ultimately turning them into something like golems themselves (the Behemoths). Therefore, it's a safe bet that a Red Lyrium golem would never know peace, or be able to reconcile themselves to thier existence. Indeed, it doesn't seem like a huge leap in logic to deduce that the red lyrium's effect on golems would likely be to turn them into something more like a Red Templar, complete with tainted madness and possibly even the overriding urge to find, corrupt, and serve an Archdemon...in short, it would all be the exact opposite of the reason golems were constructed in the first place.
Considering how lyrium seems to affect memories, it seems the analogy to blood might not be correct. Also, lyrium seems to conduct memories similar to how copper conducts metal - or how neurons conduct information. Perhaps lyrium is more like the brain of the world? Or perhaps like the roots of a tree?
Loved the ideas in the video!!! I hope BioWare doesn't cut corners with DA4, Tevinter has golems and it would be great if we learn more of them in the game... But I don't know, after Anthem and the general decline of the company I fear even more lore will be traded for a-rpg/mmo gameplay...
Yeess finally some Golem lore, freaking loved the lava version! Now I don't think Orsino knew the history of the Golems of Amgarrak and it is more likely he went over Quentin's research of it whom is rather efficient in merging body parts so perhaps he was the one that knew more about its history and just showed Orsino the workings behind it. The lyrium holding memories makes sense given Dagna's "thought all the thoughts with it" so perhaps lyrium is like a big hard drive in which memories can taken from and pulled into it hence "it takes you with it, but you can't go with it" Anyways I think you are right on Caridan learning golem creation out of the Sha-Brytol's own craft. But as always lovely video.
Golems were around in DA2 at least. Inquisition didnt seem to bother much with them though. Would like to see them back and obviously more on Titans/Dwarven lore in general.
Dwarves were sort of out-of-focus in general for Inquisition. The plot revolved more around Tevinter, Elven magic, the Fade, and the original Blight, up until Descent came out. It's a safe bet there'll be more on Dwarves if there's enough demand for another game, and if enough of BioWare's story people remain on board.
I'd prefer to think that lyrium is a substance that can house a soul. A kind of goo that traps souls. I think it's a great let down if all it held was a memories and not the person themselves. Lyrium we were informed was the life blood of the Titans. In the Decent dlc we find out that a Titan dwells in the deep roads and come this realization. We also see a corrupted version of this when we go down to the deep roads with Hawk. Lyrium is Titan blood and dwarves are their children. Very confusing to say the least.
This is the same question of if you make an exact copy of a person, even down to their memories, is it that person? There is no conclusive answer. But I will hazard a guess. The golem is a copy of the person at the moment of death. Their soul, whatever that is, has long passed away. This is an entirely new being made with lyrium to both store the memories so it can have a ready made persona as well as allow it to continue developing as an entity. That it effectively develops it's own "soul" once the lyrium accepts the process. It could be possible to transfer this mind into an organic body but it won't be the person who went into the golem suit.
SOMA dealt with this exact question and despite it's clunkiness at times is a really nice game. I've always been of the mindset that no, it wouldn't really be 'you'. It would have your memories and experiences, but 'you' and your consciousness would cease to be at that moment. You would perhaps be the same person for a split moment upon creation but after that, your golem/clone/whatever would then begin to have it's own experiences anew that deviate from your own and would effectively become someone else.
To be fair, Shale the golem, even if she has the soul of Shayle the dwarf, is not the same person. She doesn't remember that life and with different memories has become a different person, although we don't know how different. She even says this in a conversation with Leliana, where Leliana comments on Shale's gender and Shale says she is a golem and that the dwarf lived and died centuries ago.
As to whether or not Shale the Dwarf is also Shale the Golem, consider the Ship of Theseus (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus), The TLDR of that article is if you take a ship, say the USS Enterprise, then over time replace every component and crewmember of that ship... is it still the USS Enterprise? Now consider your own body. Over time, every cell in your body will be replaced... Personally, I think identity is a process. You are still you, even if there is no part of the original "you" left, because the process of being "you" has continued throughout your life. And thus,would that not be the same for Shale? It may be the only way for us to transform ourselves into something synthetic... though to be humane I think a more gradual replacement of organic parts with synthetic ones over time would be best. I imagine the loss of memory for Shale was due to the trauma of it all...
This is a SUPER old video but, after playing Veilguard, I was almost wondering if the super secret Nevarran practice of Lichdom might in fact be a similar practice developed by a different culture.
At the same time, golems don't gain any enhanced mental capacity. Most of us have a hard time remembering back more than ten years unless we're reminded by something. Now multiply that by however many hunded years Shale's been around, and you can see why she forgot so much.
A question. If runes are rocks carved with lyrium, and if dwarves are "children of the stone," what would happen if you carve lyrium into dwarves? Will the result be like Sandal? Literal rocks with magic am I right? Maybe Sandal just made himself into a rune "stone." Maybe Golems are just scratching the surface? What if all dwarves have the potential to become extremely powerful magical beings just like Sandal seem to be....by enchanting themselves O-0
Uh-oh. I see where this could go. How long do you think it will be before we start seeing golems made with blighted lyrium. I wonder if this isn't what happened with Andruil somehow and if another anvil was what Mythal stole from her....
Those golems might be like the Profane, or Rock Wraiths. On the other hand, they might just be similar to the Behemoths. Or they might destabilize completely since their red lyrium will grow out of control and immobilize them. Though Samson's armor was able to control the growth of red lyrium even while emanating it outward.
@@kamantariq2513 so the short answer is we arent sure- but in the DAO DLC Golems of Amgarrak, it does explore the story of mages who tried to make golems, but substituting soul/rocks for fade spirit/flesh. It did not go well.
@@GhilDirthalen just an idea; Abominations are a result of demon(s) posseing a person, yes? The body morphs and disfigures with few exceptions A gollem whos body is infused with lyrum may not morph while maintaining coherent thought of both spirit/demon and host. The Blight may also infect Gollems. I'm not sure how long it would take but the no evidence to say they can't be infected. Lyrum is infectable and so it orgamic material which is the host's body inside the Gollem. Mabye even dragon's blood akin to reavers may power-up Gollems. A whole DA game based on being a gollem would be pretty cool. Our character's race, gender, and class has story affecting impacts. Our character wakes up after sleeping for 1000 yrs via our control rod malfunctioning. No world ending crisis, just magic lunacy, rasist folks and romancing. It ends with the Gollem stone skin peeling off to be with our belovid.. Or just reek chaos as a near indestructible behemoth.
I got a question about new houses, at the end of dragon age origins it states the dwarf commoner became q paragon and casteless flocked to the house. In that case are they still casteless?
GGmygoodman yeah The first blight lasted 200 years In that span, nearly every dwarf city and thaig was lost They were desperate and we all know what desperation can bring
In Origins, if your Warden corrupts Andraste's ashes with dragon blood with Leliana and/or Wynne in the party, both/either of them turn on you, no matter how high their approval rating, and try to kill you, forcing you to kill them. Both of them are women of great faith, so you can see why this would be a dick move; it'd be like wiping one's ass with the Shroud of Turin in front of a Christian. And yet, even if she dies in Origins, Leliana appears in DA2 and DA: Inquisition, the latter in a fairly major role. She can even be made Divine. If she died in Origins and does not become Divine, then at the end of the game, she and all the crows she uses as messengers will disappear into thin air, leaving behind a letter about how lyrium called her spirit into being, but now she must go "until she is needed again".
@@ingonyama70 Yeah the Lilliana story never sets with me, pretty much lazy written. Besides she’s probably the least unrecognized character in inquisition among the original once you’ll be introduced to.
If you look at their charcter models, both golems and Saarebas have a similar kind of thick ring around their necks...it could be the same type of magic.
@@ingonyama70 it is not. Reused models perhaps but the rods do not connect with each other. Far as I know lore Vice there’s little to nothing that connects quinari with dwarven technology other than bombs and that’s rather resent history lore Vice.
aaron kennedy He was a Steel Golem which were a lot less common then the stone ones and most of them got destroyed when Queen Getha sent them to try and get the anvil back from Cariden
i always thought why not use the anvill to make grey warden who already hear the calling into golems? would they still hear the clling? if so would a controll rod help? i mean yes the body is technically beneath the golem, but they don´t rot or die of time, so shouldn´t it be possible that the effect of the calling stops as well?
The problem with that is that to a certain point a gray warden will give into the calling. Meaning it eventually dies from the plague or live as a servant for the archdemon. Hence why they go to the deeproads to die when they’re reaching their end. Becoming a golem in that sence would’ve bin a very bad idea to utilize
@@dendrien yes but as I understood it their old self and the body die (I mean some of the golems are centuries old) the person just serves as an blueprint for the mana to create the golem But yeah even if the golems turned to darkspawn it would turn into an interesting story wouldn’t it
@@jokermorningstar5816 it sure would. But since they’re made out of lyrium it would be likely there’s corrupted ( red lyrium ) golems. Which operates similar if not the same way as the taint. If I’m not mistaken it seems to be heavily collated between red lyrium and the taint. It wouldn’t be far fetched these two are connected some way.
I love how DAO wasn't afraid to go deep into dark stuff, making poetry out of horrible events. Espith's poem will haunt me forever
This was my favorite moral quandary in DAO as a Dwarf Commoner. They know how invaluable the golems would be to helping her people but the desperation of the Dwarven people is greater now then even back then. So my DC knows that her people in the slums would be the first ones rounded up and robbed of their free will. Its basically weighing the DCs pragmatism vs their soul.
i've never sided with branka in any of my playthroughs so i never knew how golems were made... that is utterly horrific. glad i didn't side with her haha
Always side with branka. Dwarves are on the brink of annihilation and golems breath new life into a dying race however immoral it is.
I wonder what it would be like if a golem is made with corrupted lyrium? A blighted golem?
It seems the purpose of the lyrium is to preserve the memories and personality of the dwarf (or other creature) who is encased. The process is trumatic, but ultimately the trauma ends and the golem can adapt. Shale seems to be at peace with her transformation, if only thousands of years after the fact.
Red lyrium is, as you say, corrupted and blighted, anathemic to life. It grants the Red Templars a vast increase of power, but at the cost of driving them mad, in a similar fashion to the darkspawn taint, and ultimately turning them into something like golems themselves (the Behemoths).
Therefore, it's a safe bet that a Red Lyrium golem would never know peace, or be able to reconcile themselves to thier existence. Indeed, it doesn't seem like a huge leap in logic to deduce that the red lyrium's effect on golems would likely be to turn them into something more like a Red Templar, complete with tainted madness and possibly even the overriding urge to find, corrupt, and serve an Archdemon...in short, it would all be the exact opposite of the reason golems were constructed in the first place.
Curt Clark good theory.
Darkspawn Golem
A Red Templar Behemoth
Considering how lyrium seems to affect memories, it seems the analogy to blood might not be correct. Also, lyrium seems to conduct memories similar to how copper conducts metal - or how neurons conduct information.
Perhaps lyrium is more like the brain of the world? Or perhaps like the roots of a tree?
Loved the ideas in the video!!! I hope BioWare doesn't cut corners with DA4, Tevinter has golems and it would be great if we learn more of them in the game... But I don't know, after Anthem and the general decline of the company I fear even more lore will be traded for a-rpg/mmo gameplay...
Yeess finally some Golem lore, freaking loved the lava version!
Now I don't think Orsino knew the history of the Golems of Amgarrak and it is more likely he went over Quentin's research of it whom is rather efficient in merging body parts so perhaps he was the one that knew more about its history and just showed Orsino the workings behind it. The lyrium holding memories makes sense given Dagna's "thought all the thoughts with it" so perhaps lyrium is like a big hard drive in which memories can taken from and pulled into it hence "it takes you with it, but you can't go with it" Anyways I think you are right on Caridan learning golem creation out of the Sha-Brytol's own craft. But as always lovely video.
The golems soul could have been uploaded into the titans and dowloaded into the golems again
Jesus. Dat description of how the golems are made.
Golems were around in DA2 at least. Inquisition didnt seem to bother much with them though. Would like to see them back and obviously more on Titans/Dwarven lore in general.
Dwarves were sort of out-of-focus in general for Inquisition. The plot revolved more around Tevinter, Elven magic, the Fade, and the original Blight, up until Descent came out. It's a safe bet there'll be more on Dwarves if there's enough demand for another game, and if enough of BioWare's story people remain on board.
To be fair we never really went underground at all other than in Decent
The fact it works on humans and elves is a big wrench in one of my theories. Damn.
I'd prefer to think that lyrium is a substance that can house a soul. A kind of goo that traps souls. I think it's a great let down if all it held was a memories and not the person themselves. Lyrium we were informed was the life blood of the Titans. In the Decent dlc we find out that a Titan dwells in the deep roads and come this realization. We also see a corrupted version of this when we go down to the deep roads with Hawk. Lyrium is Titan blood and dwarves are their children. Very confusing to say the least.
This is the same question of if you make an exact copy of a person, even down to their memories, is it that person? There is no conclusive answer. But I will hazard a guess. The golem is a copy of the person at the moment of death. Their soul, whatever that is, has long passed away. This is an entirely new being made with lyrium to both store the memories so it can have a ready made persona as well as allow it to continue developing as an entity. That it effectively develops it's own "soul" once the lyrium accepts the process. It could be possible to transfer this mind into an organic body but it won't be the person who went into the golem suit.
SOMA dealt with this exact question and despite it's clunkiness at times is a really nice game. I've always been of the mindset that no, it wouldn't really be 'you'. It would have your memories and experiences, but 'you' and your consciousness would cease to be at that moment. You would perhaps be the same person for a split moment upon creation but after that, your golem/clone/whatever would then begin to have it's own experiences anew that deviate from your own and would effectively become someone else.
We may end up seeing more golems again - canonically, before the Blights, Orzammar sold a bunch of them to Tevinter.
To be fair, Shale the golem, even if she has the soul of Shayle the dwarf, is not the same person. She doesn't remember that life and with different memories has become a different person, although we don't know how different. She even says this in a conversation with Leliana, where Leliana comments on Shale's gender and Shale says she is a golem and that the dwarf lived and died centuries ago.
Symbolic death and rebirth
As to whether or not Shale the Dwarf is also Shale the Golem, consider the Ship of Theseus (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus), The TLDR of that article is if you take a ship, say the USS Enterprise, then over time replace every component and crewmember of that ship... is it still the USS Enterprise? Now consider your own body. Over time, every cell in your body will be replaced...
Personally, I think identity is a process. You are still you, even if there is no part of the original "you" left, because the process of being "you" has continued throughout your life. And thus,would that not be the same for Shale? It may be the only way for us to transform ourselves into something synthetic... though to be humane I think a more gradual replacement of organic parts with synthetic ones over time would be best. I imagine the loss of memory for Shale was due to the trauma of it all...
This is a SUPER old video but, after playing Veilguard, I was almost wondering if the super secret Nevarran practice of Lichdom might in fact be a similar practice developed by a different culture.
Oghren's in party banter with Shale said that Golems keep their memories
At the same time, golems don't gain any enhanced mental capacity. Most of us have a hard time remembering back more than ten years unless we're reminded by something. Now multiply that by however many hunded years Shale's been around, and you can see why she forgot so much.
@@ingonyama70 "Most of us have a hard time remembering back more than ten years."
Yeah, speak for yourself. If you even remember making this comment.
A question. If runes are rocks carved with lyrium, and if dwarves are "children of the stone," what would happen if you carve lyrium into dwarves? Will the result be like Sandal? Literal rocks with magic am I right? Maybe Sandal just made himself into a rune "stone." Maybe Golems are just scratching the surface? What if all dwarves have the potential to become extremely powerful magical beings just like Sandal seem to be....by enchanting themselves O-0
Pun suuuper intended: That's metal as fuck.
Using Carta members to make new golems seems like a win-win
Talking about shayle like
Mark: Have you heard of the ship of THESEUS?
Now that is a good Dwarven reason
Uh-oh. I see where this could go. How long do you think it will be before we start seeing golems made with blighted lyrium. I wonder if this isn't what happened with Andruil somehow and if another anvil was what Mythal stole from her....
Those golems might be like the Profane, or Rock Wraiths. On the other hand, they might just be similar to the Behemoths. Or they might destabilize completely since their red lyrium will grow out of control and immobilize them. Though Samson's armor was able to control the growth of red lyrium even while emanating it outward.
Could a Gollem get possed by a demon/spirit?
What would a mage smithed into a gollem create?
@@kamantariq2513 so the short answer is we arent sure- but in the DAO DLC Golems of Amgarrak, it does explore the story of mages who tried to make golems, but substituting soul/rocks for fade spirit/flesh. It did not go well.
@@GhilDirthalen just an idea;
Abominations are a result of demon(s) posseing a person, yes? The body morphs and disfigures with few exceptions
A gollem whos body is infused with lyrum may not morph while maintaining coherent thought of both spirit/demon and host.
The Blight may also infect Gollems. I'm not sure how long it would take but the no evidence to say they can't be infected. Lyrum is infectable and so it orgamic material which is the host's body inside the Gollem.
Mabye even dragon's blood akin to reavers may power-up Gollems.
A whole DA game based on being a gollem would be pretty cool. Our character's race, gender, and class has story affecting impacts.
Our character wakes up after sleeping for 1000 yrs via our control rod malfunctioning. No world ending crisis, just magic lunacy, rasist folks and romancing. It ends with the Gollem stone skin peeling off to be with our belovid.. Or just reek chaos as a near indestructible behemoth.
ngl that thing on how golems are made nearly made me throw up
You can side with branka and destroy the anvil ;)
Who'd do that tho? The Dwarfs need the anvil to reclaim the deep roads - there is no future for the dwarfs without it.
uh no, if you side with branka then you use the anvil to create golems that will help you at the battle of dennerim.
Tanzenergise you can persuade Branka to destroy the anvil after you side with her... There's youtube clips if you're curious
But branka is a mad woman Plain and simple
Some of you will die but that is a risk I'm willing to take.
Branka probably
I love your channel keep up the good work
goddamn Elven Glory! taking all the good dwarf time
:D I was waiting this, thanks
I got a question about new houses, at the end of dragon age origins it states the dwarf commoner became q paragon and casteless flocked to the house. In that case are they still casteless?
Dwarf lore best lore
I've got a pretty wild tinfoil theory on golems and Elgar'nan - it's a huge leap, but I think it's a fun one. ^.^
Is the threat of dark spawn so great for the world that golems justified?
GGmygoodman yeah
The first blight lasted 200 years
In that span, nearly every dwarf city and thaig was lost
They were desperate and we all know what desperation can bring
What was that about Leliana's memories in lyrium?
In Origins, if your Warden corrupts Andraste's ashes with dragon blood with Leliana and/or Wynne in the party, both/either of them turn on you, no matter how high their approval rating, and try to kill you, forcing you to kill them. Both of them are women of great faith, so you can see why this would be a dick move; it'd be like wiping one's ass with the Shroud of Turin in front of a Christian.
And yet, even if she dies in Origins, Leliana appears in DA2 and DA: Inquisition, the latter in a fairly major role. She can even be made Divine. If she died in Origins and does not become Divine, then at the end of the game, she and all the crows she uses as messengers will disappear into thin air, leaving behind a letter about how lyrium called her spirit into being, but now she must go "until she is needed again".
@@ingonyama70 Yeah the Lilliana story never sets with me, pretty much lazy written. Besides she’s probably the least unrecognized character in inquisition among the original once you’ll be introduced to.
@@ingonyama70 alistair also turns on you if he’s not hardened right or can you pass a speech check for that one?
I wonder if there's any relation between the golem control rods & the control rods used on Saarebas...
If you look at their charcter models, both golems and Saarebas have a similar kind of thick ring around their necks...it could be the same type of magic.
@@ingonyama70 it is not. Reused models perhaps but the rods do not connect with each other. Far as I know lore Vice there’s little to nothing that connects quinari with dwarven technology other than bombs and that’s rather resent history lore Vice.
Why was kariden made of metal not stone? Any news on the old god baby vid?
aaron kennedy He was a Steel Golem which were a lot less common then the stone ones and most of them got destroyed when Queen Getha sent them to try and get the anvil back from Cariden
I see, thanks dean garcia, wer did u get this info? Do they say it in DAO?
aaron kennedy It's from codex entry called "Legion of Steel" from DAO, its found either in Orzammar or The Deep Roads cant remember which
Cheers for the info dean garcia u have been a big help
GOLEM BOI!
I’m just going to assume someone disliked this video on accident. You are amazing Ghil Dirthalen!
Behlen lore 😁😁 i like this a**h****
i always thought why not use the anvill to make grey warden who already hear the calling into golems? would they still hear the clling? if so would a controll rod help? i mean yes the body is technically beneath the golem, but they don´t rot or die of time, so shouldn´t it be possible that the effect of the calling stops as well?
The problem with that is that to a certain point a gray warden will give into the calling. Meaning it eventually dies from the plague or live as a servant for the archdemon. Hence why they go to the deeproads to die when they’re reaching their end. Becoming a golem in that sence would’ve bin a very bad idea to utilize
@@dendrien yes but as I understood it their old self and the body die (I mean some of the golems are centuries old) the person just serves as an blueprint for the mana to create the golem
But yeah even if the golems turned to darkspawn it would turn into an interesting story wouldn’t it
@@jokermorningstar5816 it sure would. But since they’re made out of lyrium it would be likely there’s corrupted ( red lyrium ) golems. Which operates similar if not the same way as the taint. If I’m not mistaken it seems to be heavily collated between red lyrium and the taint. It wouldn’t be far fetched these two are connected some way.
Not worae than the warden ritual
How about playing a Dwarf the is granted, by a Titan the ability to transform into a golem at will ?
Oh my gosh... the creation of golems sounds HORRIBLE
👍👍
Yey
Dorfs
:D you are a bad ass
Shame golems and dwarves have been ignored. They are much more interesting than elf garbage.
It's pronounced goal-im