Anti-Cheat Has Gone Too Far
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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Anti-cheat that breaks games is a dead end.
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Anti-Cheat in Fortnite recently banned a ton of players for simply having OBS on their computers and streaming online. It’s ridiculous.
WHAT, oh thank you for the news. I was thinking about streaming fortnite
I would rather stream other game than lose my acc
@@HylianProtagonist I wonder if epic games is finally trying to kill fortnite because it it's been costing them a lot of money and they're trying to move on to other things
counterstrike anticheat banned people for updating their graphics drivers and for having their mouse sensitivity too high before.
@@ogge8375 the first one was 100% on AMD. It was literally changing game files.
@@ogge8375 You mean that time when AMD? Added a feature in the dumbest possible way which would make every single anti-cheat everywhere ban players for using it? Yeah that was definitely counter-Strikes fault
This kernel level anti cheat is insane. In no way do I want to give these companies more access to my pc than I have. Its literally installing a rootkit.
then just ... don't?
Most of these games are targeted toward childrens anyway.
every e-sports ready game with tons of money and investors investing in LANs has it nowadays...
@@pixGu there are two e sport ready games with kernel level anti cheat what are you talking about "every" gimme a break
@@chowderxi was talking about anti cheats, not specifically kernel anti cheats, all of them succ anyway(I'm looking at you vanguard, recognizing my printer as a virus and the one from siege that makes the game launch 2 times cuz the first one shuts down always so ppl with slower pcs, especially my friend, have to wait literally 10 minutes to play the game)
@@pixGu honestly I would rather one that prevents cheaters like vanguard than easy anti cheat that in my experience does absolutely nothing. Yes vanguard does have massive issues though.
I’ve been banned permanently from Activision for having VMs. Yup, you heard that right, my job relies on them. Activision doesn’t think so.
I got banned by activision for having REWASD installed(not running) on my PC to remap controls in VR games that are made for different headsets than what I own.
@lunacheats1942 I even had to speak to ACT customer service and they verified that this is why I was banned after the appeal process
@lunacheats1942 I promise you that it does. The game will alt f4 if you have it installed even if it’s not running. I’ve spoken with customer service many times after submitting tickets and they verified that the game will close if it detects any software that’s not authorized installed on the device.
@lunacheats1942 Even if that were the case (and, let's be real here, it's probably something they snuck into their EULA to make the user "agree" to it), it's rather bold of you to imply that corporations don't believe themselves above the law.
@lunacheats1942 Of course, a corporation would never break the law . . .
IMO the bigger issue isn't that modern games block VMs from their servers but that LAN events require you to use their servers in the first place. You know, because it's LAN...
I love how anti cheat and live services have turned the games industry into:
"Hey what game do you wanna play?"
"Oh I dunno, Halo 1, Rocket League, Minecraft, Gran Turismo 4, Soul Calibur 2 [etc.]"
All older games. Games that were either complete at launch or come with DLC that's free/clearly not part of the base game and removed to sell later. I hope this EU law about leaving games in a playable state passes so that companies start making whole games again.
Have you seen the WAVE of videos of Gen Z looking at older games and going "Wait, this was all in one game??". They deserve so much better.
I bought all mafia games , and mafia 3 dlc were in price
thank you notch for the perpetual free update clause in the alpha license i did not have to give microsoft any money for bedrock
I hate that I'm in the minority of my friend group, remembering that games would actually be released as whole products.
Doesn't seem to matter what generation they're from, there are plenty of people I know who don't see a problem with spending money for something as simple as _colors to customize your character_ when that was an expected basic feature for so long.
@@moldyshishkabob It's especially bad when you remember that many "anti cheat" systems also ban mods for single player games. Mods that allow you to change simple things like textures on the user end only. Games like WipEout on the PSP let you do that as a feature! They even gave you templates on their website!
What are you talking about? Half of gen Z grew up on the PS2/Xbox/GameCube generation, the other half grew up on the PS3/360/Wii generation. Games finished on released isn't new for them.
anti-Cheat is 99% why Linux can't play a substantial amount of new games
Yeah which means if you got a steamdeck - wanna play a modern game - funny haha no you can't
Those games realistically shouldn't and wouldn't be played on the Deck anyways
Some of them yea but others would run great. @@bestboisoupsoup
@@bestboisoupsoup how about people who want PCs without paying $100 for an operating system that's insecure and tries to force you to use Microsoft shit and attempts to trick unaware customers into thinking they have to pay for more space on their drive by automatically saving to a limited cloud storage that someone less technical won't notice.
i just shrimply dont play it, if it doesnt work on linux its not worth my time.
This is why letting people run their own servers is so good.
100% dedicated server is a main consideration when I pay for a multiplayer game, if I can't run my own server I'll spend my money elsewhere
Server browsers need to come back as the norm, especially on any PC game. I actually hate how a lot of games on PC nowadays just don't have it. Plus, custom community ran servers were always insanely fun to just explore. I hate how modern gaming takes itself way too freaking seriously nowadays and always wants to be the next "competitive eSports" title.
While I 100% agree with you on this, the main problem companies have is probably that all of their cosmetics can be had for free in this case x)
You see, if you let people run their own server, people will stay in the old games because we cannot shut down the servers.
Any game where you host your own community servers will force you and players to use the same anticheat that supports their official servers.
The whole Crowdstrike Fiasko should be the wake up call to NOT put anything in kernel mode. Like seriously never 🙄
Microsoft has been trying to restrict access to kernel since Vista but was met with pushback from regulators. I bet they’re gonna go for it now because they have a full magazine of arguments for why third party access is and will continue to be a security risk.
@@CanIHasThisName good they should have just done it. Its Incredible how apple just did it and ms wasnt allowed
@@CanIHasThisName also having the abbility to put something in Kernel mode doesnt mean you should 🤣
@@AngryApple Well the ruling happened about 15 years ago and the mood in “the room” is now very different. We’re kinda starting to accept that we’ll need to make some sacrifices for cybersecurity.
Apple apparently provides some kind of API thing that effectively acts as an alternative to kernel access (the technicalities are beyond me) and Microsoft is probably going to go the same route.
@@CanIHasThisName large if true, huge if actual
I recognize the desire for anti cheat in some games where stuff is MP-only, but half the fun of gaming for me is in modding, so it always seems wild it doesn’t just lock you out of a set of “official” servers or something. “Have fun only the way we want you to have fun” I guess.
Imagine Minecraft with anti chest XD
@@TheRUclipsUser69 Damn anti chest? In Minecraft? Sheesh that would be the end of Minecraft if chests don't open 😂
Oh hi Lexi
Yeah, most developers seem to be total control freaks and I really can't understand why. Maybe they think that any loss of control is a lost monetization opportunity?
Hi Lexi!
Just completely agree as someone who plays monster hunter world. Mods need to be super minor and purely client side (which doesn’t affect me much, I only use one mod and it’s to differentiate different things on the ground) but you can’t use many mods without getting banned immediately if you play on stream for example
Agreed. Modern gaming takes itself way too seriously. They always want to come across as "professional" or "competitive." Long gone are the days when server browsers were the norm and you could explore the most zany custom servers imaginable on just about any PC game.
You just know game companies are gonna hear the criticism and go "ok, ok how about this: hypervisor anti cheat"
Except that still isn't going to work. We already have modified Thunderbolt cards that allow a second PC to read RAM data from the host, completely breaking any kernel or even bootloader anti cheat. The only reason why RIOT had a successful ban wave was because hackers got sloppy, and used the same exact dummy driver for the thunderbolt card.
@@patx35 they'll never get 100% detection ever, so it's not worth creating the conditions for something similar to a crowdstrike disaster. just let players report cheaters.
Hyper-V wouldn't like it
I think any game with an anticheat should have an option and startup to disable it, like halo MCC.
I think it’s ridiculous that I can’t even play halo infinite’s campaign SINGLE PLAYER without anticheat running. I use a VM for 99% of my gaming and it sucks that there I games that I want to play SINGLE PLAYER that do not let me because anti cheat.
guess what, a pirated version of that game doesn't have those issues... and the multiplayer works
Elden ring lets you do this. You can turn off EAC and mod or cheat the game as much as you want in singleplayer
I did find a way around this a few days ago but the campaign still crashes. Thankfully the workaround tricks EAC so I can play any game that uses it even in a VM.
But I have no idea what the risk of being banned is and still %100 stand by what I said
Kernel level anticheat basically pushes enthusiasts into consolizing their PCs. You build a PC specifically for gaming and nothing else. I’ve had this setup for years now because the writing was on the wall.
Dude it is so bad that you cannot even be running a debugger for a C/C++ program anymore, it triggers the anti-cheat, even if the debugger is hooked into a different process, unrelated to the game.
@@Rexhunterj thats not oh so superbad, just do not play while you debug... easy
@@fral1073 Remember not to run OBS either.
@@fral1073again, consolizing. Why do other thing while you play? Gaming should be the focus
@@fral1073 Getting your system policed by a corporation is extremely bad, that goes far beyond gaming. I don't think you understand the issue.
I'm a simple man, if game requires rootkit to play it, I don't need that game.
exactly. no game is fun enough to justify installing viruses.
I passed on HellDivers for that reason and look at all the soyny trouble it saved me(through apparently launching the game without the kernel anti-cheat is/was a easy work around but at that point what's the purpose of having it in the first place?)
I haven't touched a "modern" game in years. Just fucking trash.
@@IntegerOfDoomI mean, depends. Cyberpunk is honestly such a great game todays. Doesn’t excuse anything around the launch debacle, but right now it’s a good game that you can buy drm free on GOG.
Games with excessive anti-cheat often have issues with accessibility too. I can't play Valorant because I have Cerebral Palsy and the game locks me out of using a controller. Many games have similar issues and it prevents a lot of people from being able to enjoy them.
Valorant is on Xbox (I believe it's on PlayStation but I have played it on Xbox. I have not on PlayStation) So at least standard Microsoft controllers will work and I suspect Microsoft accessibility controllers should also work (That I have not confirmed)
@the_undead I've tried playing it with both an Xbox and Playstation controller on PC and it doesn't register them.
@@micahvisser3772 I know for a fact it does on Xbox and that's all I'm willing to say for sure cuz that's all I know
Wait, you can't use a controller? I only play with a controller, so that would be terrible for me.
@@tablettablete186 You can on Xbox (and probably PlayStation as well although I cannot confirm that with personal experience)
3:33 thought a Nintendo Switch ad started playing for a second
Lmao it’s oddly accurate
That is so accurate lmao
I noticed the same thing.
The honest to God solution is just to stop playing competitive multiplayer games. They'd start giving a shit about creating innovative, well functioning anti cheat if people simply stopped buying and playing these games.
I have quit MMO games since 2018, and I wholeheartedly agreed. The only multiplayer games that I play nowadays are just PES and Winning Eleven on my PS2 (only play it when my dad wants to or if the in laws want to have a cup match), the old smash bros on Nintendo 64 that my uncle passed to me when I was 8, and bootleg CSGO no steam that I got from a classmate and play with LAN every weekend on a crappy pre built we got from an office liquidation.
I miss the time when gaming is genuinely fun and simple. Don't get me wrong, I love some of the modern games, but I want to "just gather with your friend and have fun."
@@literallyhuman5990 I mean... MMOs aren't really competitive unless you make them that way. Most of them are cooperative except the PvP sections... and you don't need MMOs for PvP.
It's the competitive design that attracts the cheaters, remove the "I'm better than you, die ant" carrot, and the cheaters basically go away.
@@Tome_Wyrm most MMOs I played turned out like that. From the early 2000s Korean and Chinese MMOs to nowadays, it just ended up the same.
Whether PVP or not, the sweatlord mentality from those people wouldn't be gone or the game just died because they didn't care anymore.
I'm tired of MMOs.
@@literallyhuman5990 Fair, and I'm glad you had the presence of mind to get out when it wasn't fun anymore.
I just wanted to provide the alternate perspective that it is possible to make them into cooperative or personal-accomplishment based experiences.
Not really an option for many. Competitive games are my bread and butter and many gamers have the same taste contrary to popular belief. These anti-cheats have made public matches way more enjoyable for those that actually want that competitive experience without a cheater ruining the integrity of their games, because removing them would allow spin botters to snipe you in spawn before you can even start the round. Companies have tried experimenting with other methods outside of kernel-level, but it seems to be the best option until something else works.
Bungie wants to run kernel level anti-cheat to play Destiny on PC. I use my computer to edit video and photo for a living, no way in hell am I letting them run something at kernel level, especially after that whole Cloudstrike debacle.
I think you mean CloudStrike?
@@Eeems Crowdstrike actually :P
@@kirkandk CroudFlare even :p
@@Eeems fixed 😅
Cloudstrike has been an issue in pvp before so i get it
I haven't played LoL since they rolled out a persistent program that MUST BE RUNNING as soon as your COMPUTER STARTS UP. If you close the application at any point while your computer is running, you can't play LoL until you restart your PC.
Vanguard literally freeze your PC when your game starts and finish.
What's wild is that I closed it and noticed it running in my tray after a few hours un-installed league immediately.. they cured me of my lol addiction thanks anticheat o7
That's the entire point of the driver though? Start up is the most important time for preventing software-level cheats.
Hate it or not, it has effectively removed cheaters from lol
Yeah I was starting to get into the game again, especially the Arena mode, but as soon as vanguard was required, I uninstalled everything riot related. Now I can't play with my friends that don't care about their entire PC possibly being bricked by a rootkit.
TBH there’s a very simple solution to cheaters in multiplayer games. Let people run their own rooms on your servers and/or let people run their own servers. Giving more people access to the banhammer to root out cheating and/or general unsportsmanlike conduct is how you get rid of cheating. You’re never going to come up with a perfect technical solution to a social problem, there will always be people looking to game the system in some way, so make it so that those who choose to also get socially isolated for it.
If you are hard into the technical route however, You can also take the route of **detecting** cheating and doing nothing as ostensible as bans, but rather group all cheaters together in the same rooms, but be sure to have the players be geographically disparate from each other and the server location so that the increased lag between their actions makes them rage.
That will only shift the focus to harder to visually identifiable cheats.
@@fral1073 As if doing it the way we’re currently doing it isn’t already doing that, just on steroids.
It’s not though, because we still had cheats and hacks back in the days of P2P hosting and community run servers.
@@DeltaEntropy That we did. And you could play with them if you wanted to and nobody cared. Or you could play without them with your friends. And then when you found a cheater amongst you, you could instantly exile them from your room without having to hit a report button and just hope they were properly dealt with.
@@DeltaEntropy The solution still works, it doesn’t make cheating impossible, because that’s not the goal and isn’t possible anyway, what it does do is it makes cheaters dealt with swiftly if it’s not appropriate for that room, and makes dealing with cheaters a decentralized task using centralized tools.
Valve recently (and finally) appears to have fixed the massive TF2 bot issue.
All without kernel anti-cheat or even any new rules for legitimate players.
was it a sudden change after an update or how'd it go down?
Overwatch has most of the time had pretty good time dealing with cheaters despite no kernel anti-cheat too
and how well do Valve fair on their cheat issues in CS:GO where the valve server is still unplayable and everyone just play on FACE IT where it comes with its own kernel levle anticheat?
Bot was never the issue, spinbot is.
@@willwunsche6940 this is actually false. Cheat is rampant in overwatch. Just go on their subreddit and type "cheat"
@@pinktuna3693 Sudden after years of virtually nothing being done. Just one day all the bots were banned and some of the hosters too. Shockingly there has been no return of the bots either.
Stop buying it, and the publishers will stop insisting on it. DRM, locked servers, no self hosting, anything that gets in the way of launch game->have fun.
Just stop buying it. It's not food. It's not a roof. You don't need it. It's more money in your pocket. Hold onto it before giving it to someone who deserves your custom.
I've found the ideal modern gaming PC setup is basically a streamer setup, where you basically treat your gaming PC like a gaming console running Windows with zero important personal information on it and use a host PC with your preferred OS and no kernel-level anti-cheat to comprimise your data. Also allows you to avoid relying on Windows and its horrible security implementation to keep your data safe, as you can use a modern Linux or Mac with native device encryption and fine grain application access control.
couldn't you do this on the same machine with like virtualization or something? or does kernel level access mean it can just access any OS on the system?
@@zwenkwiel816 A lot of kernal level anti cheats will detect that they are running on a virtual machine and won’t allow you to play.
@@galaxypanda1288 but what if it's a special DRM virtual machine designed by the game developer or one of the big publishers or something?
like just start a different OS that's fully controlled by the game devs just for gaming and then keep all your personal stuff in a separate OS like windows or something.
I don't know enough about all the technical stuff to judge how feasible it is to separate the two though.
This all sounds good but idk what any of it means I download game on laprop and play
@@zwenkwiel816 That's just an arms race, you'll make a VM that isn't recognized by AC as being a VM, then the AC gets an update and recognizes it. They'd be on the risky end of the arms race too, since the moment AC recognizes their VM all their users get banned from the games they've been trying to play, steam accounts get cheater tags, etc. No dev wants to assume that risk.
If you want to have a dedicated gaming system on the same hardware that acts like a console separate from the computer you use for everything else you pretty much have to use dual boot.
What sucks about VM anti cheat is the (admittedly small) community of Linux gamers who use VMs for windows to game, are screwed.
Also, I have a server with a GPU that my friends (who don't have PCs) can connect to and play PC games with me. Anti cheat will ruin some of those games for us.
What’s so weird is that I’ve found that halo infinite multiplayer will work fine in a Linux VM with the game running with proton, but if you want to run it in a windows VM without proton (obv) it won’t let you.
99% of Linux users are just wannabe cool nerds, you have 0 good reason to use it in the first place you're just doing it to feel spécial. Linux was never made to run games.
99% of Linux users are just wannabe cool nerds, you have 0 good reason to use it in the first place you're just doing it to feel special. Linux was never made to run games.
@@Olanar2000personally I have an unraid that runs my home assistant, plex, DNS Adblock, and general storage. It has my gpu in it because I dabble with local AI applications. With all my hardware in one machine it’s easier to run a Windows VM than to take down my server just to boot into windows.
Linux has a variety of good reasons to use. For a lot of people the privacy is among the top reasons.
@@killerjoe117 windows is private though? by default they barely send any data but basic telemetry and usage statistics, if you're tech savvy enough to use linux you are likely capable of downloading some basic powershell scripts on github to improve privacy on windows further
I used to play LOL everyday for years... I had to finally uninstall it after the anticheat software prevented me to boot my pc...even after I fixed that issue, LOL didn't even start... I uninstalled it and never looked back.
Anti-cheat is unironically becoming the #1 reason people are getting a console as their 'gaming PC'.
I'm sure you can guess how that'll play out...
Wrong
I was so confused as to why after 1 year my modern pc started freezing, I got so frustrated trying to troubleshoot the problem. It was because vanguard (valorant anti cheat) made it at random when I switch tabs it would freeze the pc and wouldn't fix itself without a hard reset. The Only reason I got to know that valorant was the problem was when I bought a new flipping laptop and it would freeze doing the same thing.
Good opportunity to quit a huge time sink that was bringing 0 benefit to your life anyway.
if its happening on multiple devices its gotta be some other software you're installing interacting with it too, not purely vanguard
@@tingasthefriendlyfish2902 If removing vanguard fixed it, then vanguard was the problem. Or at least I’d hope you would rather remove a sketchy kernel level anti cheat over an application you actually need.
also an issue with an windows update. i had this issue. i reinstalled windows and problem is gone
Anti-cheat: More invasive than ever. Also: Cheating more prevalent than ever (on PC) and is ruining competitive gaming.
Well that really depends on the game. There are better and worse anticheats out there.
Yes but also it's still worse than ever - and the cheats are at a point now that you legitimately cannot tell it apart from a decent player.
Also games with "better" anti-cheats tend to attract closet cheating so they can avoid reports and remain undetected for longer
@@fral1073 I would say it’s probably true, but there also is very little public factual info about the numbers. We really have no idea what is or isn’t better.
People will say well Valorant has less issues for example. It’s also far less popular, in general. So how do you quantify it without numbers? What’s the %? What %s on what platforms? Let people see the data. Is there hacking on console? How bad is it? Is it entirely PC users ruining Warzone? Secrets, secrets.
@@user-gb3jk5sn9u the only platform concerning this is PC. You can't cheat on other platforms in these games. I would think this is a reason why some of them don't allow cross-play. And I think you are right about numbers. But generally, the frequency of cheaters encountered in game personally probably has played a significant role in concreting this perception.
Easy solution: Play less competitive games.
Solo and cooperative games don't attract cheaters because they can't lord their superiority over people... and if they do cheat it's almost never making someone else's game worse.
Anti cheat violates consumer trade policy and needs to be removed this is gonna be the death of MMOs and games learn the hard way gaming companies.
Another example is EA Sports WRC. They suddenly decided to implement kernel level anti-cheat 8 months after release, bricking the game for Steam Deck players who have been playing the game just fine before the update because Linux/Proton is not supported by the anti-cheat.
People love to hate on Valve Anti Cheat, but I think it's great. There's one simple reason for that: I'm not afraid of false positives or lag. Does it catch everyone? Absolutely not. Is it the best? Probably not. But have I ever had a problem with it? Never. You want to mod the game to hell? Go nuts, just don't try to use official matchmaking. Easy. As much as people want to complain about cheating in CS or TF2, they fail to realize that plenty of other games have these issues despite their "fuck your OBS" level of anticheat.
"As much as people want to complain about cheating in CS or TF2"
There was a social movement to get Valve to manually ban botters because the anti-cheat is so shit the game was LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE. People who do not play competitive games like CS, R6, OW, LoL, DotA, etc should not voice their opinion on anti-cheats, because you are a non-factor. Anti-cheats are not implemented with you in mind.
@@LoganChristiansonyeah, I’m not playing TF2 anymore because there is a lot of cheating, bots duplicating nicknames and so on. I was a TF player since the first version. It is a shame.
I am just annoyed how bad vac is at doing it’s job. Your argument is like saying a drug is good because it had no side effect, but it just do nothing anyways
Thats proably because you are too low in ranked. Not talking shit im also low rank, but most of the cheaters are at 20k and above.
@@LoganChristianson games becoming unplayable is definitely a huge ass issue but i feel like acting like Anti-Cheat is made for like comp/high-rank specifically is bogus.
Cheats happen at any rank, Anti-Cheat is there to prevent some asshole from climbing up by not having to be good at the game, it is a big deal and very important to comp to have an anti-cheat ready but it exists for both the high ranks and newbies alike
In fairness, I would love to see a video with an 8-man L4D versus match where they're all playing on the same machine.
Linus complaining about why would anyone built a 8 gamers single tower since anticheat exists. WHY WOULD ANYONE BUILD IT FOR ANY REASON? That's what made the video fun.
Yup can respect saying, too much fiddle for me, but he's basically saying, "no you can't have the cake and it too" just like the opposite of what SOG keeps saying about virtualization tech, imo this is utterly boring and disappointing behaviour to hear from a tech channel.
It’s a delicate balance. At this point the only good ways of combating cheaters will undoubtedly affect some basic functions. For example I have a simple autohotkey script running at all times for stardew valley animation canceling, and I can’t even open The Finals while it’s running. Stuff like that is just an inevitability at this point, cheating will continue to advance and there is no stopping it.
I'm just happy The Finals works on Linux tbh, I hate Windows now. I wouldn't have anywhere near 200 hours in the game if I had to restart my PC every time I wanted to play it.
server side anticheat:
@@AndreasHGK do you think almost anticheats aren’t server side?
@@The-Caged-King What do you mean?
@@AndreasHGK “client” and “server side” is essentially just your computer and the servers the game runs on. So if an anticheat was client side, then it would have to be downloaded onto your computer and be using your computer to detect cheats. Most if not all anticheats are either fully server side and just monitor the data sent from your client to itself, or are partially client side and mostly server side. In cases like valorants anticheat, it’s partially client side, because part of it is downloaded and running on your computer, that’s essentially what kernel level anticheat is.
There's already cheats available that run at the hardware level, or use another computer disguised as a HID so there's really not much of a legitimate reason to have client-side anti-cheat.
The real solution is in training algorithms to detect inhuman movements in gameplay and suspending that account for review, as well as providing a method of identification to have proper hardware bans.
i wouldnt even care if it didn't have so many false positives or occasionally decide to crash my computer when i just tab out of valorant, the sole reason i don't even want to start playing it
Anti-cheat is necessary to preserve integrity in multiplayer games. But yeah it would be nice if more games supported offline LAN with anti-cheat functionality turned off.
I refuse to play any Riot game because their anti-cheat is so invasive and insecure. Or any game, really, with this level of invasiveness.
I paid for the game and the service it claims to provide. Keeping the game cheat-free is the developer's problem, not mine. If they can't do that without violating my system and my privacy, then they should be refunding people their money and then stop trying to make multiplayer games.
man of culture. i dont play or plan on supproting any rito games either especially because of their political agenda they follow as well as their intrusive and evil vanguard kernel malware
@@soldier22881My god dude relax
@@somethingdifferent9024 if you want to give away your data and be spied on my man by all means let daddy gov take "care" of you boy
@@soldier22881 also riot games is owned by TenCent which os china company
You have no factual basis nor the required expertise to back up your claim of insecurity.
kernel level anti-cheat is a litmus test that tells me whether or not I should play a game.
PunkBuster and VAC have Linux native anti cheat
EAC and BattleEye have Linux shims available via Steam
It appears that the main aim of anti cheat isn't to prevent cheating and hacking other players, it's about getting rubes to pay full price and harvesting personal data to sell
3 out of the 4 anticheats you mentioned are god awful and don't work in 2024, and one of them is not enable for 99% of games because developers don't want to deal with it.
I know you this conspiracy theory makes you sound intelligent, but it did the opposite.
These are not kernel level AC. Game devs want kernel level ACs.
I really hope hardware cheating becomes rampant and make kernel level ACs completely useless.
@@ivailogeimara that is my point, kernel level "anti cheat" is what the second half of my original comment refers to, hope that's clearer
reminds me of StarForce drm bricking 100% of everyone's computers who installed worms 4 mayhem or ubisoft games of the era. They got away scott free in all law suits and still in business, very nice.
Even kernel level anti cheat can be bypassed
I think it should be illegal to require you give up control of your kernel for a third party, because of security concerns
I know this is so niche but, wanting to play games on my on my MacBook Pro when I'm traveling (I have gaming desktop at home) I can't because anti cheat makes it so most of the games I want to play are impossible via wine or whatever because its a VM... I wish this would change.
Every time i install something from riot that bundle with vanguard, i always having problems with my laptop and when i uninstalled everything from them there still leftover files somewhere that will randomly corrupted my windows at the end of the year for some reason (or it probably a different problems idk but it always happen a few months after i uninstall that anti cheat)
They could easily catch cheaters using statistics alone. Some things are so improbable that you can easily spot it in statistics.
it isn't about catching them its about catching them in a certain number of games, and if you have too many cheaters that you can't confirm implicitly they will themselves effect the statistics
If would ban them by statistics the future statistics would change and you wouldn't be able to do it anymore.
Formulated differently:
If the cheaters get banned and don't play that obvious anymore you aren't able to detect them anymore and need to search for new ways of detecting them.
@@Vin50000 i think he means stuff like 100% headshots, spinning kills through walls, time to kill from spotting of 5 milliseconds etc. I agree it gets tough with people that cheat in more "legit" ways, such as only having wall hacks and not using it to the fullest at all times.
@@darkandblue4118 and that solves the cheating issue. If you can't reasonably determine whether or not a given player is a cheater or not, then them cheating is irrelevant, they aren't ruining the experience any more than any good player would.
@@ForOne814 It's not that simple.
There often exists a gap between cheaters being able to cheat while other players noticing it and you being able to detect the cheats with automated software.
I'm so happy companies keep shooting themselves in the foot with these horrible decisions because it has pushed so many people to try modding for the first time, this has been the best year ever for modded games BY FAR
Any game with aggressive anti-cheat also doesn't work under Linux.
They are leaving the market open to games using less intrusive systems.
I'm gunna be real man, I don't think they care about the linux market
@@fyrnabrwyrda They don't care about lots of current/potential players. They care about the most they can hit for the least work as long as the profits are in the right expected areas. Unless it hits in the money, they'll never care about much of anything
@@AyaWetts in fairness to game devs, I've seen stats for some games that show linux being like 1 percent of a user base but 70 percent of support tickets. A fix for one distro may not work on another.
@@fyrnabrwyrda Then there are distros like Ubuntu who install an unsupported version of Steam by default.
Sure, but at the same, basically no one who wants to buy games.
Anticheats do NOT need to have kernel level access.
Your claim is WRONG.
Ones that work do.
Disagree to the fking max. Physical cheats can't be detected unless its Kernel level atleast.
Anti-cheats don't even need to be on the system at all
@@kuda1532 That statement shows that you think there is magic wand that can differentiate human input from bot input just by data. Spoiler: nope.
I had a him/hers computer where we each had a vm from one box, but it was kind of horrible that I couldn't play fortnite with my brother
I've switched my whole house to Linux so I can't play Escape From Tarkov anymore... A famously hacker free Windows only experience. Thank you kernel level anti cheat!
Halo Infinite can run in a VM with some tweaks. Its AC isn't as picky as others, like basically any Riot game which almost always a no-go in vm's.
"any riot game" - there are just 2 with an anticheat.
client side anticheats are a compromise. many people demand
cheatfree multiplayer games and dont care about the how. clientside anticheats are created due to demand of players.
and because of assholes (multiplayer cheaters)
I was running Skyblock macros for selling items faster on minecraft and fortnite banned my account for having it open... I lost 1700 usd worth of skins
i donty feel bad for you maybe stop the programs your running before oping another game, and youy dropped $1700 on fortnight you deserved to loose all that money
GOG for the win!
I got banned from Fallout 76 for having Cheat Engine running.
Not for having it injected into the game client, or using it to alter any values. For having it running on my machine.
If i have my drawing tablet plugged in league doesn't launch without black screening and never loading hte game ;^) wasnt a problem before vangaurd.
I feel like anti-cheat is only really relevant if your use-case is for multiplayer, there aren't *that* many games that are single player where it's an issue. I do think it's a shame still of course because anti-cheat *has* gotten very invasive, but cheaters have also gotten invasive so I empathize with it being a hard problem
Will the real slim shady please stand up
Most games with ridiculous anticheat make other awful decisions that make the game unfun, like having microtransactions. If they don't want me to play the game, I'll happily oblige.
Thinking virtualization is dead because of invasive anti-cheat is because of your bubble. There are plenty people out there not playing a single competitive, invasive anti-cheat requiring game (including me and about half my friends).
The way to beat these invasive anti-cheats is by not giving the games exposure or at least mentioning the problems every time the game is mentioned.
Imagine reviews with performance graphs just not containing these games. This however would have to be agreed by a group of many reviewers, otherwise people will just go there for all reviews.
What you call invasive I call secure. I honestly don't care if people running VMs can't play games if that means there's less cheaters in mine.
@@LRon-Hoyabembe What you call "getting beaten up by the Pinkertons in your own home" is what I call "proactive corporate anti-espionage".
@@LRon-Hoyabembe If they truly cared about about cheaters, they would find a way to force players into a legally binding agreement to not cheat, with the worst possible consequences for doing so, if the lawyers find a way, then even jailtime. But what they truly care about is the impression to the outside that they do most against cheating.
@@HL65536 Yep, you're exactly as deluded as I thought.
@@HL65536 I unironically wish online games were tied to some sort of government ID. If anything, it'd make it very difficult to flood a game with bots. And, companies could cooperate and ban cheaters industry-wide. Kevin Smith with passport number LA123456 cheated in CS? Banned from ever playing any online game ever again.
I wish more games were like 7D2D, sure there IS anti-cheat, but you can disable it if you want, and that simply locks you out of servers that require it
Everyone speak about Kernel level anti-cheat yada yada. But when you google on the topic, nobody speaks about how you know if a software is effecting your computer on Kernel level. Like, I wouldn't have known that Helldivers 2 had Kernel related anti-cheat unless I read the comment section on Steam.
Like, How do you know, with easy step by step guide, know if a software effects your computer on kernel/rootkit level?
I guess we got to do our due diligence with every game. I usually don't look around for that, but I would expect a quick google search would reveal if a game was using anti cheat and what kind.
How do the google search results determine whether a game uses kernel-level anti-cheat or what kind?
At least with h2 you have the option to play on linux, and not have it interact with kernel, this aint true for most kmd AC drivers however.
@@snoxeri for example you can search for "what anti cheat does Fortnite use". It will probably give you something like Easy Anti Cheat. And if the type of anti cheat doesn't show up, you can just search "is Easy anti cheat Kernel Level anti cheat"
My Account was banned after someone hacked it. Riot Support confirmed that and didnt lift my ban. My Acoount was 3 years old and i spent 2k€ . Every ticket i sent gets answered by bots and gets auto resolved.
I hope that this starts a resurgence of multiplayer coop pve games
Because everyone is starting to realize how futile anti cheats are
Its a constant arms race where nobody wins
And the real solution is just to play other games
Co-op PvE games never went anywhere? There's tons. Every crafting survival is a co-op PvE.
Try SUPCOM FAF
Doesn't need to be PvE in the you must have an account games and be online of modern games - simply don't bother with invasive and ineffective kernel level anti-cheat and let folks play. As long as there is a reporting mechanism the other players can use then cheaters online account can be banned pretty quick really - sure they will annoy a few games worth of gamers before hitting enough cheating reports to get that ban. But ramping up to a permanent online play loss and having to buy the game again with a new email address etc would be sufficiently off-putting to keep cheating at only mildly irritating levels, which is all Kernel level ones ever manage while actively screwing up the whole system for no reason... Or I suppose just matchmake reported cheaters only with other reported cheaters and let them fuck each other over...
Helldivers 2: a coop PVE game with kernel level anticheat 😭😭
A more difficult and intrusive AC just results in more creative cheaters, and those who have the slightest non-standard setup screwed.
Anti-cheat only serves to screw the good player, just like physical locks are only there to keep out good people. Anyone with any intention will ALWAYS bypass an anti-cheat, no matter how deeply integrated an anti-cheat buries itself into your system.
I am specifically setting up a new boot drive just for kernal level anticheat.
Dual booting is back, folks. But it's for overreaching anti-cheat software.
Stop running stuff in kernal. Valve has it right on their end.
I'm planning on buying a separate PC for games with anit cheat. Honestly it's insane that I have to go that far, but on the one hand I'm not putting Vanguard on my System and on the other hand is quitting LoL completely also something I don't wanna do, since I like playing some evening ARAMs with my friends.
Smart best to have separate drives for g4mes with m0ds than your real os.
Since Crowdstrike Microsoft has started pushing for restricting third-party kernel access and virtualized kernel. If this works there would be no reason for anti-cheat compatibility problems
Overzealous anticheats are a consequence of this belief that gaming has to be this hyper-balanced competitive thing rather than just being fun. I blame eSports.
Sometimes Linus lack of knolwedge is infuriating... Nobody needs a VM for a multihead-system.
Use only AMD (and/or Intel) GPUs, Install Linux, set up 8 seats and assign the hardware. Log in as different users. Play. Done.
It's easier than installing Windows without MS-Account.
I've been running such a system (with my brother) for years!
And while you are limited to games that run on linux, those are, thanks to the SD, almost all.
That form of multihead existed before vm's even were a (big) thing...
It's just more corpofascism
The Anti-Cheat software in SOME modern games even makes it where PC Gamers aren’t allowed to use LINUX
Its just difficult, because its either you have invasive anti cheat, or you have cheaters.
Nope. You can do it server side with a minimally trusted client.
Also if the choice is malware or cheaters. Let them cheat. If the game is unplayable... maybe the problem is more fundamental... I got off the PvP hamster wheel a long time ago, and my life's better for it.
Singleplayer and cooperative games don't need anti-cheat :)
The games are full of cheaters anyways. Sure, the anti-cheat prevents the "casual" cheater from playing, but not the worst of the worst from playing. I've quit so many games cause of ineffectual anti-cheat not keeping cheaters out.
@@saren42 I play an unhealthy amount of valorant, and I've only run into about 2 people who I thought were cheating, one of which, got banned in the middle of the match.
This will continue until there is a large scale breach and it turns out they gave something insecure ring 0 access.
what game are they talking about in the end?
I want to know lol
@@Vexe heard something about manual goalkeeping? maybe hockey? XD
"tape to tape"
it's a roguelite hockey game. haven't played it myself
Theoretically, what if we run competitive games in something like docker container, but designed for gaming. There will be unavoidable performance hit, but most competitive games can run on a potato. You dont need anticheat, because you users could not modify container state, it will be easier to port it on different OS and hardware.
Im a gamer. I never run into anti-cheat because I do not play those games. Lol.
Any game that has kernel level 0 access never gets installed on my pc. It's shut me out of a ton of games but it has saved me hours of headaches from crashing and the other security issues they have.
And none of my friends understand why.
What game are they talking about in the second half of the clip??
Tape to Tape (a hockey roguelike)
I had to turn on the closed captions to understand it myself. They are talking about "Tape to Tape".
As long as the detection of cheats takes place on the CLIENT SIDE (player) only, any attempt is doomed to failure.
The game developers have little interest in changing anything because sales figures have to be right. Could be so easy on SERVER-SIDE + CLIENT-SIDE
And even if a ban occurs, it is only temporary and can be circumvented by creating a new account. (Esp. for Free2Play games - they are only linked to email addresses).
Steam should provide an API where the player is generally punished.
I boycott anti cheat. Anti cheat = anti play.
I'm committed to using Linux from now on and I won't switch back for a companies garbage software practices.
we get it, you like cheating in games.
@@LRon-Hoyabembe I don't play competitive games. I'll cheap in Final Fantasy all day lololol
Every other anticheat: oh, you playing with a modified anything? Banned.
Overwatch anticheat: Oh, there is a spinbotting Widow on the match? Gugugaga, ban the guy that said "fuck" in chat
Sorry, but as an main OW player, I had to say this
You have an event where nerds get together. There's a 192 core zen5 epyc coming out soon. You have probably hundreds of monitors, keyboards, mice etc. Do you see where I'm going with this?
Master Chief Collection allows for running in unprotected mode on steam which still gives you custom games with friends (and absolut modability 😎)
I cheat. A lot. In single player games. To skip things i don't enjoy, or to break things in interesting ways. I've been modding or tweaking games since i was a kid. Any kind of anti cheat is a huge turn off. I almost entirely play solo, and do not approve of any cheating that harms other players in any way, or grants unfair advantage.
You should ALWAYS be able to do whatever you want in single player-but for me, I just want cosmetic mods. I never want to cheat in multiplayer, but I'm happy to be able to do whatever mesh edits I want in Street Fighter 6 and still play all online modes. It gives no advantage whatsoever and increases my enjoyment of the game. That's all I want; no weird, invasive anti-cheat bogging down your game, and the freedom to mod in a way that has no negative effect on other players' experience.
@@ryo-kai8587 my PC install of dragon ball fighter z is chock full of silly cosmetic mods. Hurts nobody, the other player doesn't even see the changes. And even there, 99% of my play is solo, or local with a friend. I've played maybe 30ish online matches over five years or however long that game has been out.
I am a Valorant player, i experienced crashes because of Vanguard and other issues.
But still this is the best thing ever to happen to a shooter and the integrity of the ranked game is more important than anything else.
Im still salty they dont have replays yet but that doesnt invalidate that valorants anticheat is amazing and its worth it.
And if you're a casual player you're not the focus group of this game.
I REALLY want Microsoft to ban third party kernel drivers. It would force all these developers that use intrusive anti-cheat to actually implement their systems in a humane way. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that anti-cheat must work at a kernel-level. The most effective forms of anti-cheat work server-side, your game client should merely be a dumb terminal, sending basic inputs to the game running on the server.
If a player's aim is near 100% perfect or their sensitivity + accuracy is too fast for a human, ban them. If they are constantly finding targets around corners at a much higher than average rate and have checksum mismatches on their game files (they're likely using wall-hacks), ban them. If they're sending keyboard inputs too fast and their connection extremely unstable, ban them.
There are tons of methods of drastically reducing cheaters that don't require super privileged access to a system. You cannot stop them all, no method can (including Vanguard which is not impervious). Anyone who tells you kernel access is required to effectively remove cheaters is being extremely dishonest and borderline malicious at best.
spoken like a guy who knows nothing.
@@LRon-Hoyabembe I work in the games industry, so I know a thing or two about game development…
@@FilSapia Just becuase you downloaded unreal engine once and you're now some helpdesk IT or other irrelevant role in the games industry doesn't make you an expert.
Vanguard is 60 times better at detecting cheaters than your suggestions, i don't see why they would want to downgrade their anticheat
Server-sided AC powered by AI is the way of the future. Honestly once it gets good it might be even more foolproof that client side AC. At the same time though, I miss games that just had community servers
About one year ago Rito permanently banned my 15 year old account for playing on a VM.
Good job Tencent, you freed me. Now it is easy for me to completely boycott you.
Is it a bad idea to give a remote process administration access above the local user? .... The answer may not surprise you.
PS: Removing local LAN option from mp games was a mistake.
HA for High Availability
Kernel level anti-cheat isn't required, it's just the lazy way, so the developers don't have to do anything, and just pay a third party to do it.
HA for High Availability in VMWare?
The day I realized I would trigger Vacban myself if I tried to ran Flawless Ultrawide on Elden Ring I just stopped playing any game online, it was the last straw when it came to game ownership, especially because Elden Ring is kind of infested with cheaters....
Laughs in Linux.... user space anti-cheat. Not getting anywhere near my systems Kernel.
Laughs because majority of the games cant play on Linux :P
Wine@@LeRouxMashinrou
@@LeRouxMashinrou Laughs because I have over 20,000 games to play on Steam....without Windows spying on me.
@@notjustforhackers4252 Put on tinfoil hat lmao
@@notjustforhackers4252If any of those are online multiplayer games (or just games with an online requirement?) quite frankly, I would assume they're spying on you regardless. If you think being on Linux is enough to have at least a partial level of privacy, you are a fool
I don't play many competitive games anymore, but I have to do work and games on separate devices because of some of the anticheat stuff. I've found that even having vm processes running on the same computer is enough to make anticheat go haywire. Since I need virtualbox and WSL for work, everything is on separate drives.
Frankly you can’t stop cheaters if they are willing to just emulate a keyboard and mouse from another computer
Any anti-cheat that locks you out because your running a VM is probably a kernel level anti-cheat.
Praying to god ai anti cheat will replace kernel level anticheat in the near future
This is a problem which will never be solved. Cheaters will cheat, anti cheats will be a pain in the ass.
I just avoid such games. Hell, I mostly play old games and indies anyway.
For me anti cheat locked me out of a 60€ Titel and social interaction.
Friends and I were getting into cod Zombies and I liked cold war
But one day the game kept crashing on me and suggested me to start in safe mode
So I did
I dialed every settings back to where they were in normal mode and restarted the game.
As I joined the zombie lobby my game went black and seconds after I was banned for using unauthorized software.
Ban appeal results where "confirming" that.
Till this day I have absolutely 0 ideas what would have caused it but I noticed there is an subreddit for exactly this where people got banned for unknown reason. Guesses go from VMs to the Asus armory crates RGB software.
It's ridiculous.
I mean I wouldn't believe myself saying I haven't cheated but with 0 hours in multiplayer should have made them sceptical if there were an actual human being behind that ban appeal.
Do a 7 gamers 1 pc with older games and a single GPU using SR-IOV! And instead of EPYC, grab a 7950X to show how far computing has come.
Tape to tape mentioned! dreaming of a northernlion collab...