Do barrel tuners work? Let's ask the professionals
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
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Disclaimer: The information provided in this video is for informational purposes only and is not intended as professional advice. The techniques and tips discussed are based on the personal experience of Erik Cortina. Erik Cortina is not responsible for any harm or damage that may arise from the use of this information. Viewers are reminded to always prioritize safety and comply with all applicable laws and regulations when handling firearms. 
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I love this .. not if *my* tuner(s) work, but if *tuners* work. At this level of competition, if they didn't work, nobody in their right mind would put something unnecessary on the end of a barrel.
Bench rest shooters take EVERY advantage to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of their rig!
Define work. Yes tuners change a group I don’t think there is anyone who denies that. But does it actually make it better and does it make it better in all conditions or just that one? And if it makes it consistently better, what resources did you spend to get there, and by how much did it make it better. My opinion is that at the end of the day it may be worth it for bench rest shooters if they can prove those things, but for everything else including Fclass….. I think if there is an improvement consistently over time it’s so small and situational that a 1MPH difference in wind has a stronger effect and you are better off focusing on that.
@mallan4735 Outside of BR and F-Class competitive shooting, I don't think anyone's out there promoting tuners for hunting or plinking (not that there's any reason to remove a tuner, just no need for one in the first place).
For the rest of your comment, just go observe. You're also putting some subjective bits in there. Subjective is fine, but only applicable to one's self.
@@TheMrMused I don’t think that anyone has ever done this but if they have great. This test is what would be needed to truly validate that tuners really work in my opinion.
Take 5 test rifles of different calibers and barrel thicknesses. Test the full range of motion of that tuner let’s say at 6-8 different settings. Fire a minimum of 30 rounds at each setting.
Now do that for all guns in that one condition and look at the results. Find the top three “nodes” for each and the bottom three and classify them by mean radius from group center. Then take the tuner off and shoot 30 rounds.
I want to see the difference between no tuner on it, tuner at its base setting, and the best “group” or setting. Then tell me what the percentage difference is between the three.
Once you have that test done for all 5 rifles, do it 2 more times each of the three in different conditions. And compare the results.
I want to see that the settings that are the best stay the best across the three different iterations. I want to see that there is a noticeable positive difference made to each rifle and not just some. And lastly I want to see where the biggest improvement was made and was it better enough to warrant the effort.
I would be willing to bet that you will get more of an improvement just from putting the tuner on there in a base setting vs bare muzzle then any setting you adjust after that.
I would also be willing to beat that through that sample size you will at best see a 10% difference in group size. So a .8 in group shrinks to a .72 in..
And of course all of this needs to be done in as much of a controlled environment at possible, same ammo, same shooter, stable platform etc.
I think each time there will be a tune that is best no doubt about it, I just think that tune will change everytime and that the difference once you add a true sample size to it is only worth it to a bench rest shooter, no even to an Fclass shooter.
Would love for someone to do the test and prove me wrong. If I ever win the lottery I am not saying I’ll tell everyone…. But there will be signs and the test results will be out there lol
@@williamallan4735 there are a number of videos out there, both F-C and BR style shooting, that run *mostly* through your proposed testing protocol. Close enough to be convincing, at least. Not just EC's videos (or tuners) ... but from other folks as well.
One of the things that's interesting to me is not only seeing the difference between no tuner and dialed in, but the group size change during the dialing in process.
I’m just impressed on how many people you knew by name!! I will get one of your tuner brakes for PRS when they’re back in stock! Keep up the good work!
Thank you.
Is this post an attempt to rewarm what is already a tiresome argument?
IMO there are 2 components;
1) Barrel Tuning: moving a weight inward/outward along the longitudinal axis of a barrel so as to increase/decrease the speed of bending with the goal of benefiting from 'Positive Compensation'. This is a real thing.
2) Statistical analysis of impact dispersion: measuring the distribution of impacts (dispersion) of projectiles across small, medium and large sample sizes with the intent of identifying underlying mathematical probabilities/behaviours within those sample groups. This is also a real thing.
There is no reason whatsoever that activity #1 cannot be achieved within the parameters of activity #2. These two activities are not at odds with each other (contrary to many people's opinion) and as such, supportive data in one does not contradict or invalidate the other. In fact, from memory, I do believe that Hornady did clearly articulate that, from their data and analysis, that large sample distributions (group sizes) could be mathematically derived from small sample size data, and that there was no reason why small group sizes cannot be achieved through tuning of either the barrel or the powder load. There's a lot more to all this but I feel this addresses the core issue.
Let’s ask the professionals lol Aka his friends and people who sell his product 😂
I’ll ask random people at the grocery store next time. 🤦♂️
@@ErikCortina why don’t you show scientific data? I remember in one of your tuner videos you said you was sworn to not tell people the proper way to use a tuner.
@@ErikCortina 3 rounds per setting don’t show anything. Then when you find your perfect setting take the unit all the way off. Then reinstall and put it back on that perfect setting. What happens? Any Poi shift? Also tuning a hot barrel and running that setting on a cold barrel is 2 different things. Tuners may work for small sample size. But tuners aren’t repeatable 100%.
I have three of them. They work, and I'm not fine-tuning seating depth. Believe the target, borrow one, and test it for yourself.
@@timothyrichburg7331 three shots per tuner setting ain’t gonna tell you anything. Believe what you want. Do a 5x5 for each setting. You will find out the hard way.
E.Cs new info-mercial😅
Btw, You can tune a piano, you can tune a guitar, but you can never tuna fish. 🐟
Not with that attitude! 😆
Ok so they work, I get that but how do they work and how do you get the most out of them. That would be more useful.
I have a tuner brake (yours) on a 7mm Rem Mag hunting rifle. The brake is MUCH better than the brake that I had before and the tuner amazed me. Every time I turned it the group moved then it tightened up. It's never shot as well as it does now. I took a brake from the 7mm mag but I plan to revisit the tune at longer yardage. I have two more of your tuner brakes that I need to tune but I think they'll give me great results as well. I wish there was a tuner with threads "sticking out" that i could screw a can on. I don't have the means to lengthen the thread on my barrels. But, for some rifles, I leave the can off and shoot with the tuner brake. It's worth it.
You have so much respect in the community was great to see
I appreciate that
Nice strike back. I thought you were going to slam Hodgdon at Shot Show, but this is much better. Getting it from the professionals
I'm missing the context, can you explain?
I have one of yours Erik (Tuner Brake on my 6.5CM). But I need to learn to set it up better. Groups seem to vary in hot and cold conditions.
Do you have a tuner WITHOUT a brake for a 5/8x24 thread?
I dont need recoil mitigation and do not want extra sound @ shooter. (Hunting for instance)
Yes. Get a V2 Tuner with V2 adapter.
@@ErikCortina Thank you Ill look! 🙏🙏
Tuners work as long as you understand how to use them to full advantage. Conditions at SWNs was different than when I did load development for the match and my tuner brought it back allowing me to shoot clean and 14X at the 800 yd Palma. 👍👍
So, I used to be an alcoholic crack addict with a heroin problem. As soon as I found tuners, all of my problems were solved and I've been clean and sober ever since!! Plus my groups got tighter. Not sure if that was the tuner or giving up the drugs and alcohol, but I'm gonna say it's the tuner. 🤣🤣🤣
Yes, that was all a joke. I love my EC Tuner brake on my PRS rifle! Showed it off to someone at the match this last Sunday. I ended up getting 3rd overall!! My best finish yet. Video review up on my channel now. I did an IDPA pistol match Saturday, and a PRS rifle match Sunday. Very busy weekend!!
Thanks for all you do, Erik!!
Def going to pick up a tuner on the next barrel, (For sure one of yours Erik!!)
Thank you.
Well, I guess that just about sums it up! Thank you for sharing:)
Thanks for watching!
I have a Model 70 Winchester with a Boss barrel tuner and it was amazing what it did to the group size when adjusted properly to a specific load
I had the same experience with a 300 win mag A-bolt!
I'm still skeptical if they work.... If they really worked, Large Rifle Magnum Primers would be back. I do like my first gen EC Tuner Brake
Didn't work for me. Custom ar15. Lapua brass. Lame.
Listen EVERYONE I PROMISE you they do not work especially if you join one of my challenges. Just ignore the fact that I am using one. 😁
More talking.......Show us that they work!.....on any rifle, and that the high cost is worth the benefit to anyone not just a competitive shooter!
I mean, you could travel back in time with a camera and ask everyone if the Earth is flat. You could go back even further and ask Egyptians how the Sun rises and they'd tell you a dude in a chariot flies across the sky pulling it.
Not saying they don't work. Just the logic that because a lot of people believe something, that it must be true.
This is a completely useless video. Define what work means lol. Can they make group smaller in some situations. Of course they can. No argues that they can change a group. But do they work consistently and repeatably and in every situation. And how much do they “work”. To my knowledge the only people that have done enough testing at volume to say one way or another has said that sure they can change groups but there is not a big enough difference to differentiate.
I have a suppressor with a tuner from Gun Warrior in South Africa, they are the EC agents here, on my 7x57 and it definitely works, Rifle has never been as accurate, well consistently accurate.
There is zero doubt that tuners work as it is also a zero doubt that manufacturers are not telling you exactly how to use them. EC has the knowledge on tuners use that he is not sharing with his customers. It is a closely guarded secret between a selected few. Appalling practice for someone that sells tuners for living.
This is the stuff, i give you the most credit for! Thank you for doing this!
My pleasure!
I was gonna ask tuner vs brake and then i noticed tuner brakes are a thing 🤣 just beginning my LR journey lol
Here is my proposal for a definitive test:
Have one person who knows his rifle really well first determine what tuner setting is optimal and another setting that is off-optimal. This can be done at any distance, either 100, 200 or even 1000 yards - whatever distance best demonstrates the effect of the tuner. Have a second person shoot the rifle with groups of 5, 10 or even 20 shots. Take as long as needed to make sure barrel warm up doesn't affect group size and wind conditions are similar for each shot.
Before each string of shots -
The first person should set the tuner and record if it is optimal or off-tune but they should NOT tell the second person shooting which setting it is. That will eliminate any psychological bias. Also no one could claim the shooter intentionally shot a good or poor group to sway the results.
Several groups should be fired at least 5 or 10 with optimal tuned and similar with the off-tuned. The order of the tuner setting should be set at random. Overall group size should be measured, also vertically and horizontally (to see if the tuner affects one direction more than another). Also the mean radius should me measured for each group (from each group's center) to minimize possibility that any off-shots will spoil a group's relevance.
Once the multiple groups have been fired, the measured groups sizes can be compared to tuner setting and then determined if there is a statistically significant change. I think this is a fair test. If anyone has thoughts to improve it, please reply with suggestions.
Ofcourse you're correct.
The major issue with all of the guys who think tuners work is the word "TEST". The vast majority have zero idea of what rigid statistical testing requires &, they have zero idea of what the results are actually telling them in any case.
You'll never get through to them because they don't know how to test & they are completely ignorant of the results.
Anyhow, a simple but enlightening test would be to simply look at all the scores over the last 12 months & see if there is a statistical difference. My guess is that there most likely won't be but, that wouldn't change their minds either.
Erik won’t submit to this! Because it will show it’s all snake oil. Litz did rigorous testing and showed no effect.
do they or you make a clamp on tuner my barrel isnt threaded or any suggestions
Dang, I graduated high school with Brandon Zwahr. Glad to see him around.
I'd Like to try one 🙂 Great Video 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Go for it!
I will pick one of you tuners up from a distributor here in Canada 👍🏻
Mine worked.. tightened my groups.
How do posi trac rear ends work
Just watched this. Very surprised Bernard Engelbrecht (Current F Open World Champion) wasn’t captioned
What do they mean by work… I used 100 rds testing a tuner and a 20 rd group was identical in size but not pattern with the “best” setting and the “worst” setting on a full revolution at 200 yards. I think they work for folks that are weight sorting and pointing bullets, but for field or prs shooting it gets lost in the noise mostly.
If a tuner is not working for you, getting lost in the noise. Just means your ammo is inconsistent!
@@Vintovka I mean it was shooting .4” groups at 100, es less than 10 and sd less than 5🤷♂️ I know it’s not bench rest but that’s pretty fair for a PRS rig I think.
The dude who said, “ not yours” hahahahahaha
Hi Erik, could you please tell about what happened in FTR ? Any info about Brad and his rig ? Its very interesting how this guy shoot amazing 200-18 at 1000y from a bipod...
They might work but this is a terrible way to "prove" it. If you asked the top shooters at an F-CLASS/BR match if necksizing worked 10+ years ago you'd get similar reactions. There's no evidence showing us they wouldn't have shot just as well without the tuner. The only way to prove a tuner works is to do a scientific test which shows statistical proof that they can alter accuracy and that turning the tuner is what creates the difference(because hanging any weight off the end of a barrel can change how it shoots). Placebo is a real thing and most of the instructions on how to use one lead to a large cognitive bias. When you shoot small shot count groups they vary by large amounts naturally(3 shot groups can easily vary by 60%). So when you turn the tuner and shoot three shot groups they will change and some will be much smaller than others. The same thing would happen if you weren't turning the tuner at all but because you're using a device that's supposed to make your gun more accurate you attribute the changes to that device instead of random dispersion. So you turn it until you randomly get a few small groups in a row and voila! Tuner works. A good follow up test would be shooting 10 more 3 shot groups at your setting and then turning the tuner a quarter turn and shoot another 10. This would give a much clearer picture of what the tuner is actually doing. I'm forced to ask myself why there isn't a single video of a tuner manufacturer or user testing to statistical significance showing that they do change accuracy and this change repeats when you change the settings back and forth. Every video is small samples and anecdotal proof that they work. They might work but no one has proven it yet.
Had a 2.5” MOA 30-06. 5x 5 shot groups with five different types of ammo, Installed a EC tuner, shot the same boxes of ammo same lot number , 5x 5 shot groups… now shoots 5/8 groups with 3 different ammo types
@@justice1327 I believe you. However, shooting one five shot group from each type of ammo isn't representative of actual performance(you can't change variables in the test other than the one you're trying to prove). Although going from 2.5 MOA to 3/8 is very significant and likely couldn't be explained with normal dispersion changes. Now can you turn the tuner and get it back to 2.5 MOA? Because if you can't then what made the difference is the weight of the tuner at the end of the barrel and not the tuner itself(I'm going to guess that your 30-06 doesn't have a very heavy barrel contour). You'd get the same performance out of a dead weight of the same size/shape. Also if the tuner has a brake on it it's much easier to shoot an heavy recoiling rifle with a brake and the brake itself can change accuracy. In fact because the tuner took 3 different types of ammo/bullet/load and made them all more accurate at the same setting the traditional way a tuner is thought to work wouldn't account for this as they would need to be "set" for each different ammo or each combination would have to be leaving the muzzle at the same time.
We shoot 20 shots groups in F-Class, not 3 or 5.
My thoughts exactly too. I'd suggest a test where one person 'tunes' the tuner and another person who doesn't know the setting shoots the group (to eliminate the potential placebo bias) and then compare group size with tuner setting. Doing multiple groups to measure group-to-group variation with the same setting would be a must to ensure the differences seen are due to different tuner settings and not other random variables.
Also, by this same logic - I bet Lee's collet (neck sizing) die sales really increased after Robert Frey set the 1000 yard world record for smallest group in 1993 by using them to size his brass. But, how many folks are still using them now?
@@DavidBeerer I actually use them all the time. Especially when I’m fire forming Brass and want to just change the neck tension.
No one thing solves for everything. Do tuners work? 🤔 Yes, I do believe they work when everything else in a "rifle system" has been either mitigated or solved for. In other words, if one is already confident in one's equipment, a Barrel Tuner or Tuner Brake can give one even more confidence in their equipment if they so choose to use 'Tuners'. Others who have already gained confidence in their equipment, loads and technique(s) may not see a need to add or use a 'Tuner'. 4AW agrees that they do change the point of impact and harmonics. He just doesn't see a need to use them on his equipment; in his style of 'Marksmanship'. He chooses dampening vibration vs. altering harmonics. 4AW never said 'Tuners don't work' nor did 4AW dissuade anyone from using Tuners if it helps their confidence.
I'll be buying some EC Tuner Brakes.
One of my biggest regrets was selling my Winchester 70 with a Tunable Boss, yes it worked but reason I sold it was almost went deaf using it on a hunt..
as a non pro ... yes they work 💯💪👍
Just get yourself a bull barrel 3.5 times the diameter of the caliber. Cut down on the barrel whip.
Who was that GUY that said again that TUNERS didnt WORK ???? LMAO
Believe the target!
I am not sure yet, but I think I am begining to see a pattern! LOL
lol
Yes, they do work .
Thank you so much God bless
Lol, I guess they don’t work with Hornady bullets only Berger bullets..😂
😂
CENTER FIRE DEFINITELY..... HOW BOUT RIMFIRE ERIC???
I love my V2 tuner break. 😎
Great. More anecdotal evidence……..
From champions that actually use them. How dumb of me to ask those people. 😂
Obviously it’s in your interest to ask them. You know they use them and thus the outcome of the video…. Tuner “experts” can’t even agree on how tuners work. You should fund a 3rd party tuner test that uses statistically valid sample sizes and a control. If they work you’ll sell even more.
How scientific 🤣
You are correct. I’ll ask more than 30 people next time so that I have a large enough sample to satisfy all the recent statistics Ph. D’s in my comment section. 😜
Wouldnt adding shims to your muzzle brake do the same thing, if anything
Yes, but only radial brakes would work because of the port design.
The problem is that there is little repeatable evidence of the effectiveness of tuners available to the public. Even one of the competitors in this video implied that some rifles are more sensitive to tuners than others. When the Hornady guys followed the instructions for the tuner they acquired, it did not make an improvement on the particular rifle they used. They reported their findings, but it may just have been bad luck that their particular combo did not work well.
In a recent interview, a past champion stated that it took him years to figure out how to get a correct tuner position that would work throughout a match. The technique was deleted from the video, but his difficulty explains why a few tests in a lab might not hit upon the perfect combination.
The best way to show the effects of a tuner is to send a rifle/tuner combo that is known to respond to tuning to a test facility, along with precise instructions of how to move into and out of tune. Even better, send it with rounds of known ammo (I would be willing to defray some of the costs). This way the testers can see and record the effects. Competition rifles start off much more accurate than a typical rifle, so the effect of the tuner would be more noticeable on a "retired" competition rifle that is still accurate.
Hahaha stirring the pot!
I fully agree!
Yes they do work!
Thats a lot of anecdotes but no actual evidence. 🤷♂️
They aren’t anecdotes. I simply asked the people with experience that use them if they believe they do. That all. You take it how you want.
Then why did they stop selling?
Huh?
@@ErikCortina my thoughts exactly. Im sure sales have slacked off a bit. But thats just cause everyone bought one or 3, and wont need more till they get more rifles.
@@jonathanrogers9961Agreed…I have ~15 of them
as an engineer, I often find myself with people who get overly obsessed with theory, and their particular data points to the exclusion of facts in front of our face. I call this “thinking too much syndrome”, as not everything has binary answers.
Personally, I’ve seen tremendous improvement when using tuners on barrels, more subject to whip, then barrels that are thick as truck axles.
A 22 LR with a thick match varmint barrel, I don’t see much improvement. But with my Ruger, American 6.5 Creedmoor barrel, the difference was tremendous.
Don't let Mark from Mark & Sam After Work see this *lol*
It's out there for anyone to see. :)
Probably doesn’t believe in positive compensation either. He’s a good shooter after work, but not world class competition. I still watch his channel though. One must keep an open mind to all possibilities.
Mark and Sam just done a video on tuners. He never said they didn't work. He doesn't use them because they have a short window at sunrise to shoot before the mirage gets to bad, time, limited resources are why.
I really like Mark's videos and he's a better shot than me. However, i didn't really understand his opinion on tuners. He stated that as barrel temps change, harmonics change and that will change the effect of the tuner. That makes perfect sense to me until I consider that a non tuned barrel will have the same effect won't it?
If the change is enough to throw the tuner gun out of the node, why won't it throw a non tuner gun out?
@@Lucas12v Their videos are entertaining, but he also mentioned 'load to max pressure and just shoot' or something to the effect, which had me frowning a bit. I wanted to comment about him tuning & balancing crankshafts (I believe they're a race workshop / engineering firm during the day) versus getting the perfect balance on a barrel but just decided to leave it.
This reminds me of your neck vs full sizing video. Great stuff!
Thanks for watching!